So True with Caleb Hearon - Pauline Chalamet Loves The Suburbs

Episode Date: April 30, 2026

Welcome! This week’s guest is the one and only Pauline Chalamet! Pauline and Caleb talk raising children, getting cast in The Devil Wears Prada 2, the birds and the bees, shrimp, and so much more!  Go see Pauline and Caleb in The Devil Wears Prada 2, in theaters May 1st!  Join our Substack for ad free full episodes, early access to merch, our community chat, and more! https://calebsaysthings.substack.com/    Follow Pauline! @pauline.chalamet  Follow the show! @sooootruepod  Follow Caleb! @calebsaysthings  Produced by Chance Nichols @chanceisloud Find exactly what you’re booking for at Booking.com. Book today on the site or in the app.  Visit https://Quince.com/sotrue for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada, too. So True with Caleb Hearon is edited and engineered by Nicole Lyons. Our social media manager is Virginia Muller. All episodes are filmed in The So Trudio at Legitimate Business World Headquarters in Brooklyn, New York.  A Wave series. wavesportsandentertainment.com  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Please sit and stretch. Steep. Flip. Or that. And enjoy. via rail love the way wave it's the data that you have to

like build on your own of your own life knowing that other people did it is like beautiful in the point of art in many ways but also just like can't give you the resolve of like I can do things I know that I'm like tearing up okay she's really a mom Pauline

how's it going babe it's going well how are you? I can't believe you listen to to the show. I do listen to the show. That's so funny. Who's your favorite? I can't say. But you know what I will say? Zoe DeCinell has become like a surrogate big sister to me

in Los Angeles. Yeah. And I've listened to that episode several times. Isn't she great? Yeah. I just like hearing the two of you talk. You both have such a great time making that movie. Yeah. So that's the episode I listened to the most.

I love her. Yeah, she's really, she's great. Like, there's no one else like her. There's no one like her voice. There's like, no one like her voice. There's no one who has her voice. There's no one who has her, like she's a, yeah, she's like a class act. She's kind of like Hollywood royalty, you know, like her whole fam is in the business. They like, her kids go to the same school she went to. There's something very like, I don't know, and her career is so great. So interesting. It is. I was in a hotel room the other.

other night and a yes man happened to be on with her and jim carrie and i love that movie so of course i watched it and god damn she's just so like original and charming yeah i just was like who else could have and it's like yeah it would have been a different movie had someone else played it but who else could have done it like this no one i know she's so great also i love jim carrie i know he's so i'm really excited to see what he does next i like i guess i can't say that but i think i think he has a thing coming up, but I'm like, I can't wait for his old, his old era. Like in like, 10, 15, 20 years,

I hope he's just given us weird shit. Yeah, yeah. Kind of like his Vimeo painting, um, what are they called? Videos. Yeah. Um, I've, I've,

I've watched those several times too. Yeah. Yeah. Are you a painter? I am, I'm the opposite of a painter. Yeah. Like, a non-painter. I'm a non-painter.

No, I really have something. Someone said, like, I'm going to put a gun to your head unless you draw, like, a believable something. I'll die. Couldn't do it? Couldn't do it? Couldn't do it? And it's like, do you ever read The Little Prince? Mm-mm.

Okay, at the beginning of The Little Prince, he talks about how he draws a... He, so hold on one second, sorry. Mm-hmm. Also, I'm a little sick, so I have my Kleenex here. I hope, I hope you're not, are you like, you're in a germophobe a little? No. Okay, good. I don't think I'm contagious.

I also, yeah, I don't know. Since COVID, people are weird about sick. Like, when you're, when you have, like, a little cold, you're not supposed do anything. Since coming, people are weird about sick. It's so true. Like, if you have a little cold, like, life continues. I truly, a guy that I'm, like, kind of seeing, text me today.

We were supposed to see him tonight. Very casual. Let's not worry about. I'll tell you off camera. He's right here. Hey, come on, brother. But we were supposed to each other night and he was like, I'm a little sick. And I was like, normally I'd be like, whatever, come over.

Let's make out. But I'm being only a little weird about sick right now because I have to travel soon. But not towards you. Yeah. But also, I understand like when it's like I'm sick and I'm going to stick my tongue down your throat. It's a little like, oh. You and I probably won't make out today. Probably not.

That's the good news. Never say never. We never know, but like most likely scenario. But sorry, just to finish on my little prince. At the beginning of the little prince, he talks about how he goes over and shows the adults a picture of a bow. constructor that ate an elephant I think that's what I'm

right and basically the adults keep going like why did you draw a hat what a nice hat and the little boy is like no like adults can't see that it's not a hat it's a boa constructor that ate and so it like looks like a hat yeah but it's yeah and that's your drawings anyway that's where I'm out

with trying oh that's so funny dude same I wish I could be a painter so bad um sorry this is kind of rude to have my shoes on your couch. You can put your shoes up, though. You do whatever you want over there. I'll take my shoes off. I'll get comfy. Hey, come on. Yeah. Okay.

I wish I could be a painter. I guess I could learn. I thought about taking a class or something. Yeah, I don't think I could even do that. I have a really good friend who's an amazing painter. Yeah. And I solicit her help sometimes. Like, I wrote a letter once, and at the end, I wanted to have a really cute drawing of a dog. and I said to her, like, could you just draw me a cute dog? I put it at the bottom of the letter. I didn't say I drew it, but...

My handwriting is so bad. Oh, God, mine too. I try to do handwritten letters for special things, and I just, every time I have to write, like, six versions because my handwriting is so bad. Oh, yeah. My handwriting's so bad, but I just write one version. Yeah, you're doing it anyway?

Yeah. You're brave. Oh, 100%. It's like, if doctors can do it, why can't we do it? Why can't we? I wrote every six. single person who worked on Trash Mountain. I wrote a handwritten thank you letter to.

I think it was like 157. And I got to say by the end, what those people got was barely nice. Like, it was just like, truly like, it was truly like, thank for your work on the film. Couldn't love you more. Appreciate everything you did. But it looks like just like madness and scribbles.

I'm like, they certainly opened it and threw it away. They were like, thanks, dude. You could have just called. It is so not special. But I want to get better handwriting. I used to have pretty good penmanship when I was a kid, except I remember I have a really vivid memory of when we were learning cursive. Our teacher, I was kind of like Amelia Bedelia a little bit.

Our teacher was, our teacher was like, you connect every letter in cursive. And I was like, got it. So I connected every letter without spaces between the words. Like, I connected, like, if I was writing person of interest, like, I connected the in person to the O of, of, the F to the I. Like, I just wrote, and that was my, and she was like, she was like, why are you doing that? And I was like, because we connect the letters in cursive. Like, I was, like, annoyed with her.

I was like, listen to your own rules. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then she explained to me that words have to have spaces. I went to a middle school where, like, it was, okay, so I did elementary school at PS87 on the Upper West Side. And then my family was thinking of moving back to France. So my parents put me at the United Nations school. My dad worked for the UN because all the academics weren't in French. So it was like that way I could brush up on the reading and writing part.

and so I had done third grade at PS87 where I started to learn cursive and then I went to fourth grade at Eunice and they were teaching something called Nelson writing Okay, so... Sounds so made up by the way. It was. Yeah.

And my mom, who is like very academically driven, like flipped her shit. Like, like, was just like, what is this? Like, why are you not learning cursive? What is Nelson? And you right? It was like learning a whole, different way of writing.

So I actually, like, never really learned cursive. I learned a mishmash of, like, one year of third grade cursive, and then fourth grade was Nelson. What is Nelson? Honestly, I don't even remember if that's what it's called. But I think it is because I, like, why? But I think it's like Nelson writing. I don't know.

Like, maybe we can look up what Nelson writing is. Nelson handwriting poster. Oh, oh, yeah, yeah. Okay, good. So it's like, it's like a form of cursive. Diagonal joints. Diagonal joints, diagonal joints to letters without ascenders. Example given AI are you in.

Horizontal joins to letters with a, I'm not understanding what Nelson is fully, but I'm loving their work, I guess. This is what my mom is really going to use. Oh, she was having the moment I'm having now where she's like, I'm angry, I don't understand this. Yeah, yeah. She's just like, you need to know cursive.

I mean, yeah. See, it doesn't really look. Oh, no, it does look like cursive. Yeah, there's like moments where they choose to connect and moments where they don't. It's like someone got bored with cursive. That's exactly it because like the Z in cursive is so, right, isn't like a funny, it's like a schloop, schloop, yeah.

And look, the Z here is normal. Yeah, and they connect the L and the A, but they don't connect the Z and the Y. But then in over, they connect every letter. Yeah. This is fascinating. I did not know about Nelson, and I'm thrilled to learn of it.

I had no idea I'd be talking about Nelson today. Do you write like this? I absolutely do not write like this. My handwriting is different based on the time of day that it is. Like sometimes it's like, you know, at the start of every journal, the first entry of every journal I finish, I try to have it be nice, just so the first page at least. But if I just open to a, I mean, there are pages especially when I'm like having a moment of insomnia and can't sleep and I'm just like writing out thoughts. I can't even reread it the next day. Like, it's like, I don't, I don't know what the pen is doing.

Yeah. But it's trying. Are you journaling every day? Um, I was. I was. I used to have a really strict regimented. Um, and I don't mean that. That sounds like I forced myself.

Like, it was something that really helped me, uh, start my day where it was like, I had, I don't sleep with my phone in the room. I have a, like, an analog alarm clock. I would make my breakfast and tea or coffee, and then I would journal, and then I would read, and then I would, you know, turn on my phone and do the other stuff. That doesn't exist anymore. That was, like, a solid five years of my life.

And now it's like I'm lucky if I can, like, know where my journal is at any given point because things are so messy and crazy. Yeah. I can't journal. I can't have a routine. There's like something wrong with it. I live my entire life. Do you know, the closest I ever got to describing how I live my life is, do you know when

you have a newborn and people are like eat when you get the chance, sleep when you can, like this is survival mode. That's how I live my entire life. And I have no baby. Like I literally am like, I'm like, fuck, if I have an hour now, I should really get sleep. And it's like, you are 31 years old. You are fine. Like there's just something.

Or I'm like. The urgency. There's just something about, I can't get myself to get up at a regular time. I'm like, well, I'm really, those extra two or three. hours asleep, I'll need them if I want to do something that night. And it's like, or you could take a nap, or you could just go do it. Like, I don't know, there's something about the way I'm living my life on survival mode. I need a routine. And journaling would be cool. I don't journal. Yeah, I don't know. It is great. I, you know, my dad instilled it in me, and so I've journaled

since, like, fourth grade. And I have every journal since then. But it used to be a nighttime activity. So, like, before going to sleep, I would get out thoughts of the day and stuff. But it wasn't every day. I think it was like when I had a lot of thoughts I would write them out. Now it's like I'm lucky if if like I happened to have 20 minutes and I like I said know where the journal is then it's like okay just get some flow try to write anything. But a lot of the times it's like you know like April 6th today I woke up and I had and then like something called me and like that was it and it's like oh what did you have? Did you have a dream? Did you like what was it? Yeah.

Damn, that's the thing, though, is I want to have like a log of my thoughts and feelings. But now I almost feel like, I have this feeling sometimes where I'm like, God, I miss so many big moments. Like, I wish I had journals from when I was like 23. But we also now have our like phones that have like that date everything and, you know, notes app. And you know what the issue with the phone is. Like, at least with like social media.

Sometimes I'll try to like look back at social media to be like, what was my life then? Like, why I wasn't being honest? I have a bunch of happy Instagram posts from when I was 22, and I'm like, that was a lie, brother. So I can't trust those. Oh, no, no, no. Yeah, social media, I am really, I am, I am not on social media right now.

Let me tell you. You really aren't. I think something got real dark this past year. I don't know if it's like my personal algorithm or if it's happening to other people, but it got really dark. I don't know. Everything is,

um, everything makes me feel like I'm not enough. Yeah. It's really strange, but you know where I'm big, or not I'm big, but where I spend a lot of time. Tell me.

Reddit. No. And I always have. Oh, I know. I know. What? I know.

This is shocking. I know. Because I think of you as being so well. Oh, yeah. And that's an unwell space. I am in Reddit. What are you doing on there? I am a part of weird groups.

Oh my God. Yeah. Are you posting? Absolutely not. Okay. No worries. Once I, like, accidentally upvoted something, and then I created a whole new account. You aren't going to get me.

No. But, no, I love, like, there are so many subreddits that I just, I can't say they're, like, some of them are, like, some of them are, fun or cute. And it's, you know what, it's become, it's become social media. Like,

Reddit used to be this kind of, like, space on the web that you had to, like, be willing to navigate to spend time on. Yeah. Now, as an app,

it's literally social media. Like, you can be scrolling. I'll, like, scrolling on Reddit. Yeah. So it's like, I'm not really on Instagram, but I'll be scrolling on Reddit. And it's like, you,

I'll just scrolling on substack and I'm like, this is so enlightened. I tell myself it's not doing as much damage. Yeah. I kind of think that's true though. It's harm reduction to be on Reddit. Sure. For you, I'm loving it. Okay.

Mostly words, right? Or is it a lot of pictures now. It has a lot of pictures. It has videos. I tried to help you so bad. No, no, no, no, no. It's adjacent to, it's social media adjacent. Totally comparable, yeah.

Oh, that's so funny. I can't do Reddit. It's the darkest. Oh, my God. But you know what's fun on? Reddit, all the airline subreddits. Oh my God. So I love those.

I mean, people get so upset. Also, like, the way people come after wholesomeness, like someone who, like, you know, I had the worst flight ever, like a United flight, like worst flight ever with a nonstop crying toddler, something, something. And someone replied being like, think of the parents, like it would be harder for them.

It was harder for them than for you. And the way people came after this person, like they don't want anything like good. You brought a smile to a knife fight. These people are not interested, baby. That good vibes are not going to get you anywhere in here. This is a viper pit. That is so funny.

I know it's crazy. It makes you feel crazy. Sometimes you'll see someone being so sweet online. And I'll just, I fear to, when I was on TikTok, there would be times that I would get served a video of, someone just so sweet and wholesome and lovely doing anything, doing anything at all. And I would be so scared to check the comments because invariably you would check the comments

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mouth watering meals for my friends and loved ones. People who eat together, it's often said, stay together. So if we can find our perfect stay on booking.com, anyone can. It's really special. It's going to get a little emotional. That's really beautiful. Um, so,

find exactly what you're booking for. Booking.com. Booking. Yeah. Book today on the site or frankly in the app. Are you reading? Do you read books at all? I do read books. Yeah. You're a reader. I knew that, I think. I am a reader. You know, less with the toddler. It's harder to make time to read. You know, you were saying earlier, the newborn, they say sleep, like your whole life, the urgency. I didn't feel that until my baby became a toddler. I felt the babyhood was pretty easy. I mean, like, every day was something new,

but I was just like, you're coming along for the ride. Now, I'm like, you're coming along for the ride, and there's a little bit of like, wait, what? What ride? Where are we going? What are we doing? But, so the reading becomes, you know,

a lot of, like, Shell Silverstein, which I love. You love Shel Silverstein. Yeah. But I just read Lies of Minerner. Nellie's book. Oh my God. And I'm a huge Liza Minnelli fan.

You're a big Lysa Manly fan. I'm a big. She is, she's like pivotal to my, like, to my desire to want to be an actor. Yeah. It was like, I was in, I don't know what year it was. It was like, I was a kid. And my, oh yes, this is, okay. So I used to, so I was a ballet dancer and I was at the School of American Ballet,

but before going to the School of American Ballet, I studied the school of American Ballet, studied at this place called Studio Maestro on the Upper West Side. And Studio Maestro was like, you went down these stairs and there was like these three studios. And before my ballet classes when I was a literal young child, there would be like older people

taking this jazz class with this man named Luigi. And I would just like watch these older dancers dance and then I kept watching this one woman. And my mom once said, to me, you know who that is? I was like seven. I was like, no. And she said, that's Liza Manelli. And I didn't know who that was. And my mom was like, oh, okay, well, let me explain. And she took me, I guess Liza

was having like a show, one of her shows, and we went and saw it with my grandma and my mom. And I'll never forget, she went up on stage. She did all her songs. She did like Liza with a Z. I never heard any of this. And then I remember her saying, no idea who Judy Garland is, no idea that that's her mom. But I just remember her saying, my mom always said to perform full out, even when there's no audience, because there might be one, like, there might be three people in the audience, but there might be the one person whose life you're going to change. And so you always have to go full out. And that always stayed in the back of my head. And I was just like, this woman is amazing. And I always, you know, loved her and followed her since then. And I honest to God, because I'm also

very bad with, like, um, things, kind of celebrity things. I found out. maybe two or three years ago that she was Judy Garland's daughter. In my head, also, and her dad, Manelli had, like, you know, directed some of the biggest movie musicals. No idea. For me, it had just always been Liza Minnelli, like, in the woman who took Luigi's class. That's the funniest way to know her. Because that's the old woman who takes classes at my dance studio.

Exactly. That is so funny. We had extremely similar childhoods, kidding. Just hearing you say that, I'm like, that's so chic for your mom to be like, do you know who Liza Minnelli is? You go, no, I'm seven. And she goes, let's fix that. And so, like, be able to go to a show is like, that's the kind of shit that I, when I was seven,

and I was starting to learn that kids had lives like that. I started to be like, oh, my God, I wish I was a New York kid. Or, like, when I moved to New York for the first time in college, and I saw, like, 10-year-olds riding the train alone with, like, a violin. I was like, ha! You're so cool! That's so fucking cool. Um, that is, uh, yeah, yeah.

My mom, my mom was really big on bringing, uh, like shows. Shows were like, like I, this, I don't want this to sound wrong, but it was like, it was like, uh, like, once a week we were going to the theater. We were seeing a show. And it was just kind of like, oh, God, like, we're going to the theater again tonight. Like, oh. Totally. Um, but, you know, but, but like, now I look back and I'm like, oh, that's how I saw so many

great shows. Like I'll never forget Burnett Peters in Annie Get Your Gun. Yeah. It was like the first time I was seeing adults kiss on stage and I was like, this is so hot. And I was like, maybe six years old. But yeah, it was really, yeah, she was really good about bringing us to show. She still is. That's the really, that's the thing, though, about being a kid and thinking about kids who had different things than you or whatever, or thinking about what you give your kids is like, kids are going to be equally impressed and unimpressed in ways that you would never imagine.

Like it's the fucking like getting them some like really expensive gift and they only want to play with the box. Like you just like you don't know what they're going to be impressed by and be annoyed by. And if I were eight and going to my like 10th Broadway show of the month with my mom, I'd have been like, Mom. Like it just is like, yeah, it's, that's just part of it. Yeah, you're like, mom, I want to go to Chuck E cheese. Like that was me. Like I was always so envious of like what I considered. I don't like this, what I'm going to say,

but like the normal things of like suburb... I was obsessed with suburbia. My mom had this best friend from high school who lived in Pelham, New York. And on Christmas Eve, she would throw a party each year. And we would go. And I loved it. I was like, I am in a house.

Like there is a yard. There is a play set. There is a dog. Like, you, like, oh my God, look. like the cool friends, like they have friends that live down the street and they're like walking over. Like, it was so cool. Yeah. I was obsessed with like suburbia. And, and now less so. You know, now a little less so. But growing up, I was really, I was really into that. I think that's the preferable. Like, I think it's so funny sometimes when people are like,

like even you being like I don't know if I like that I'm saying this I'm like no it's the preferable thing to be fascinated by other people's lives as opposed to being like well my life is better than everyone's yeah yeah no it's the preferable thing to be fascinated by Pelham I think that's like that is actually the best way to be in the world is like curious about other people's stuff it is hilarious to be like I wish I lived in the walkable neighborhood of Palmy New York but it is yeah I totally I think that's part of too like like a big part of my growth as a person was getting over the like jealousy I had for other people's lives when I was a kid and when I was like a teenager when I was like God I wish we were whatever I wish we lived somewhere cool I wish

we were rich I wish I was thin I wish I wish all these million different things about my life like part of growth and happiness is getting to a place where you're like I am fascinated by all of those things and by other people and also I got my life and my life is great totally you know we all have to do some version of that yeah it's true um I have a question for you go ahead do people do People tell you that you, like, do people tell you that they feel like they've known you a long time when they haven't? Yeah. Yeah, you really, you, you really, like, we're like here talking, and we've, we've hung out a few times.

Yeah, a couple times. I feel like we've known each other a really long time, and I feel like that's such a quality that you have. Because that's like a character trait of like really cool, someone really cool. Thanks, dude. But also like kind and warm and I just feel like I've known you a long time. You would not believe the way the inside of my body feels right now. Squirming. The inside of my body right now is like a million little minions running around being like,

find a joke. Get us out of this. Go! The boss is in trouble. That is so sweet and nice. and... I know. Sometimes I wish I was

less sincere. Like, sometimes I wish I was a little more like, oh, like, be like cool. Sometimes I feel so uncool.

You think? Yeah. Oh, I think you're so cool. I don't think so. I mean, thank you,

but I don't think so. I think that, like, I wish I could be like, oh, funny joke, funny joke. I can't do it. That is so funny, dude.

I literally, I was, I was, the other day, I was like doing press for divorce Prada, which you're in.

Shout out. What? And I was doing some press for it with Simone and Helen and they're both so good at it. I really love them both. I'm obsessed with both of them and they're both so good at this and they're like poised and professional and like I can talk all day but I'm also pro lying. Like I think like lying and press

is so funny. I love to lie. I love to make up a story. I love to be ridiculous and there were a couple of times that I stepped out of the bounds and like really took a big swing on like lying or like doing some stupid bit and I just felt a little like I was like oh man I hope I'm not making this bad for them But I just want to be having fun all the time. I totally get it. But wait, can you please elaborate?

Like, what do you mean? Like, do you lie from one press thing to another? So, like, then it's like you said one thing, but you said the other? Totally. And that's like that, that when you were like the thing going on in my body, like, it's like make a joke. It's not make a joke. It's like save the situation. Oh, yeah.

How do you save the, because. I love. I love it. So. It's not lying about like, it's not lying about anything material. Like, for example, when I say like, or like, do a bit, you know, like, for example, there was a really earnest question that an interviewer asked about Anna Wintor. They're like, how nerve-wracking was it to be around Anna Wintor?

And I, they both answered really elegantly and beautifully. They've both, like, been around her. And they had beautiful, wonderful, earnest answers. And then I said, I don't really like her because we went to high school together. And we were on the tennis team and we had big drama and she knows what it was, but I'm not going to say what it was. But basically all that to say, I don't really fuck with Anna Wintor. And like, I don't know what compelled me to say that.

It's obviously not true, but it's like I just get a little bit bored sometimes and I have to lie. But honestly, like, I totally understand when you look at like the way people get fried doing press tours. Like, it's amazing that people don't kind of go off the rails more often. Yeah. Because, you know, you can, if you're doing like one or two things, that's great. but if you're doing like a lot of press, it can kind of drive you insane. I'm going off the rails.

And I like that about myself. It's not something I would change, but I am always a little bit like, I hope I'm not making anyone uncomfortable because I love to do it. Yeah, but Yolo. Yolo. And also it is Jester's privilege.

Like literally being a comedian, I do get to do stuff like this. I like Jester's privilege. Jester's privilege is a little like, people let me get away with it a little bit more. They're like, oh God, that Caleb's a stand up, you know, so I get to play with the bounds a little bit more. Oh my God.

Have you ever seen that clip of Joan Rivers guest hosting a late night show? Maybe it was the Tonight Show. Is there only one? Or no. Her and Betty White, the one I'm thinking of. Okay. Yeah, I think I saw this. It's so iconic.

Yeah. I've been thinking about it a lot. I'm trying to get late night to let me be fun. Seth, I went on Seth Myers and he let me be fun, but next time I want to be even more fun. I want to wear, like, a costume and do a character. But I also, by the way, I'm just going to say, I might not ask them to do that. So if I don't do it, it's not that Seth's team said no, okay? But I

It's so fucking fun because Betty White comes out and Joan is like hosting the show You know and they just have this Back and forth where they're being so mean and playful and ridiculous and Betty's like Well I'd love to say you have on a nice dress tonight And Joan's like thank you and Betty goes but I can't And they're like going back and forth a mile a minute

And then eventually Betty White is like All right let's straighten up and fly right And they do the interview proper but like I just want to like Yeah I want to be a part of that I want to like entertain I want to be like really I want to make this stuff silly again. I totally get it.

I forget, like, I maybe read several things about this, but one thing was, like, a piece on, like, late night and how, like, podcasts actually are now the version. Like, that late night isn't really subversive anymore. It's not really taking any risks. Is that the right word? You use the word subversive? Yeah.

And that, like, there was an autobiography, or is it an autobiobiography? or biography on Arsenio Hall and kind of the risks that he took as one of those late night shows. And when you look at some of those clips and the questions that were being asked and the risks that people were taking

back in those days, that's why people were staying up late. Like that's why it made it late night. It was like you were like, oh my God, we're going to see something that's like not allowed. Whereas like now you kind of know what to expect from the monologues.

And I love it. still watch it. I love, excuse me. I love them so much, but it's like, yeah, it's kind of more like on podcast now or like, you know, even something like Z-way, like, where you're getting the stuff that's kind of off the beaten path. Yeah, it's this weird. We've also had a cultural, like, I've noticed this cultural thing that we're doing now where like, people will comment on things and be like, oh my God, her, like, her approach to this press tour, oh my God, his media training, like, oh, my God, shout out to his publicist, like, whoa, his team knows what they're doing. It's like, what the fuck? Or the opposite being like, what is their team doing?

Right. Like, wait, what? I'm just like, we know too much now. Like, I feel like the mystique is gone. Well, that's the thing is like it's so protected by publicists and stuff. And also people, there's so much access to information that it's like, even me right now, like, what am I saying that like could potentially be controversial? And it's like, I think you just have, like, how do we get to a place where it's like, like, kind of like what you're saying, where you're kind of like, eh, like, fuck it.

Like, you know, it's, like, can we all get gestures pass? Let's get gestures pass for everybody. It's like, yeah, you just have to weather it. Like, I think that's, there's two approaches it feels like right now in the culture.

And I don't, I don't begrudge anybody their approach. I understand all the reasons. You have a business. You have people to take care of. But, like, there's the one approach, which is like, clean it up, tighten it up, stay on message,

look pretty, do the thing. Like, don't fucking veer and just stay out of trouble at all costs. and that is a totally understandable approach. I get it. But then there's this other approach that I guess I'm advocating for which is like,

let's be authentic, let's be a little messy, let's have fun, let's trust that people know our hearts, and also let's just be prepared to weather the storm. Every week people are mad at me for something I've said.

And I'm like, they're just going to have to get over it because I'm kidding around. How do you know that people are mad at you? I don't know as much anymore. It still makes its way to me, usually in passing by one of them saying something. I used to read,

and so I used to really intimately know and stress about it. But it's like comments, on Instagram or it's like... Oh, it's comments, it's threads that people have started. Like, not necessarily threads the app. Like, it's people will do like a thought post about something I've said.

It's videos. It's usually like well-intentioned people that are humorless. I'm just telling the truth. These are humorless people that are well-intentioned. They have good values. We actually have the same values in the world most of the time. Yeah.

And then there's a whole other version of it, which is like people are just mad that I'm fat and gay and they hate me. That's a different thing. I could never care about that. Right, right. That's just like you're always going to have some haters. Yeah, I'm fat and gay.

You hate me, no worries. Like, that's fine. And then there's the ones that really bother me, which is people that actually share the same values of me in the world, they're just uptight, humorless, boring, woke scolds. And I get it because at one point I was like them. And it's because I cared so much that I didn't know what to do with all my caring. But it's kind of like the left's, I mean, without getting into politics,

we can talk about, go back to Liza Minnelli. But it's kind of the left's problem is the finger wagging. Yeah. Be like, it's, um, oh my gosh, it's a lot. Like, you know, you can't, it's, ah, that's how it feels inside. It's like, I don't even want to say anything because I'm like, oh, what can I say? It's like, I'm getting in trouble. Like, I've been saying lately, I do a lot of, like, college gigs and, like, toxic colleges.

And I've been saying lately, like, part of what's going on with the left is, like, if we want to win, and I don't even mean necessarily elections, I mean, like, conversations. Yeah. If we want to win, like, ideological old conversations. We have to stop finger wagging and we have to stop talking down and we have to invite people to the party. We are having so much more fun. It's so much more fun to be nice to trans people

to love immigrants. We are having more fun. It should be an invitation to the party that's like actually we're not we're not going to police every single word you say if you want to join the party and be cool we'd love to have you. And I think, yeah,

the problem with culture right now, one of the problems is that we have become so punishing and so like I mean merciless and ruthless. It's like, yeah, mean, mean, mean. It's like so not cool or nice to be mean. Like there is, I hate mean.

Mean is like something that like brings me back to the horrible like middle school days. Like mean just isn't cool. It's not nice. It's me. No, it's lame. Like don't be mean. Just don't be mean. Like, like, but yeah, you know, the internet makes it easy.

Well, you're raising a kid right now. What do you think, like, what do you think is the most important thing? Like, when you think about raising a person. I'm raising a kid and it's like you said kid and I was like, oh my God, look a rainbow. Like my eye immediately was like, oh, what is like kid like, like colors? Yeah. Your room looks like very like kid. It's a little kidish.

Yeah. It's a little playful. Yeah. What do you think is the most important thing? Like, what do you think about the most when you think about like what you want this kid to have? Okay, I want this kid to have a sense of adventure and not fear of anyone else. I am like, so I am doing things. Like, I do not have a nanny.

Not because I don't want one. Nanny sound amazing, but because we don't really live in one place right now. So I have a lot of local babysitters. And because a lot of babysitters are students or going to school or have other jobs. there's a mix of babysitters in each place. And I am the opposite of like kind of this, you know, we have to acclimate our child to the people because I'm kind of like, you know,

if I know that it's safe, my child will figure out that it's safe. Like even if it's like the first time that she's meeting this person, I'm like, I have to go, sorry, like I'll see you in a few hours. Yeah. Like I did before coming here. Um, it, I, I want like not to be afraid of other people.

That's like my, my, my, one of the biggest things. Because I think having an open mind that a sense of adventure and a sense of like, um, that's how you make the world your oyster. Like, it's when all of a sudden you feel like, like you're, you have access to all these different opportunities through all the different kind of people that you know, if that makes sense. That's like one of the big things right now is like, just as many people.

Anybody, oh, you, you're like 16 years old and you're like, I just started babysitting. It's like, why don't you spend a few hours like babysitting? I'll go to the movies, which I barely have time to do it anymore. But like, that's like kind of one of the big things. It's just, yeah, a sense of adventure. Like I don't really, you know, like I'll let her ride the escalator. Like in my head, I'm like, are their parents going to be watching?

this being like, oh my God, she's so irresponsible. Like, this is horrible. But, like, I let her ride the escalator. I let her ride the escalator alone. And people will be like, oh, oh, oh, oh. And I'm like, oh, no, it's fine. Like, I'm watching her. And, yes, she's fallen while getting off the escalator.

She's okay. Like, I'm very hands off in a way that surprises even myself. But I kind of... I find myself surprised by me. But yeah, I don't know. I just feel that... I don't know. It's kind of cool.

Also, I felt really validated because Jennifer Lawrence once gave an interview pretty recently about, like, playing with her young child and how she, like, puts an AirPod in and listens to a podcast or something. And I was like, oh, my God, great. I was like, I thought I invented that, but I'm so glad to see that other people are doing to do.

I'm actually not alone. Yeah. But yeah. So I don't know what your question was, but... You nailed it. Okay, great. Yeah, it was about what's most important. I think all the time about the kids in my life and the things I want to give them

and the presents I want to be in their life. Mostly I'm like, because I'm not any of their parent, I'm just like, my big thing is like, I just want you to feel like you can talk to me and, like, talk to me about anything. And like, I'm a safe person that, like, yeah, I'm here if you need to talk about things that you don't want to talk to mom and dad or dad and dad or mom and mom or whatever about, like, whatever the situation is.

But the number one thing I would like to give the, these kids that you just can't give them is like just like data like resilience of like you will you will come up against really hard things life will be really really hard and you it will suck and the first couple times that happens to you when life gets really hard you will feel like everything is crashing down it'll feel like the universe is collapsing in on you and it'll be about something like not getting in the play or on the team or whatever and then you'll get through it and then the next time something similar to that happens you'll have this data and this like backlog of like that happened and I got through it and all I needed to do was like give it time and this, that and the other.

It's the data that you have to build on your own of your own life. Knowing that other people did it is like beautiful in the point of art in many ways, but also just like can't give you the resolve of like, I can do things. I know that. I'm like tearing up. Okay, she's really a mom. Fowing crying at the concept of resilience. I know that's fucking right.

I want to be funny on this podcast. I did not want to cry about resilience. I wanted to be funny. No, I, um, no, I think that's really beautiful and really true and really like, yeah, life is hard. Like, it's, it's hard and it's also like hard on a scale for every, like everyone. It's hard for people on, you know, different scales and different, but you just, you just want to always make sure that you have people in your life that, that you can turn to.

I mean, now as an adult, like, yeah, you're. you remember as a kid, like who were the people, like your parents' friends, your aunts and uncles, or cousins or whatever, were the people that you could turn to outside of also of your parents. Need a vehicle that isn't afraid to make a splash? That's the Volkswagen Tauce. Capable and confident, the Volkswagen Touse is fit for everyday life, nimble in traffic, agile and tight spots, and still spacious enough for weekend getaways. While available four-motion all-wheel drive gives confidence in rain and snow, the capable taos, you deserve more confidence. Visit vw.ca to learn more. SUVW, German engineered for all.

So, yeah, but also it's really fun to have a naked baby running around. That's like, that's why people should have kids. Well, it's so funny because they don't really know how to move, and so they're just like, kind of like trying out throwing different body parts. and it's really, and then yeah, they're always naked. Oh, naked.

Like, now it's like, pointing to the diaper, like. Get this shit off me. Yeah, and then it's like, oh, oh, we're gonna put another one on. No, you're not. And then it's like,

oh, we really should all just be naked running around all the time. Yeah. It was like me in high school. I was naked a lot. Yeah. And once a senior year, we had like locker rooms

and I would do something, this is very embarrassing, but I would do something called the boob dance, where I would just kind of be naked, and I would jump up and down to get my boobs. And I thought it was like, I was like, this is so cool. So cool. Were you doing it for other people, like showing them?

Like, look at the boob dance? Oh, I'm obsessed. And this is my senior here, so was ruling the school. I was a senior. But then this little freshman girl when they went and complained was just like, I don't like this. She invented and introduced the concept of shame to my life. The fucking snake in the garden, this girl.

She complained about the boob dance? She did. Oh my God. Do you know where she is? Now I know you won't say it. I don't. I don't even know who it was. Wow.

I just know that someone complained. Oh, I would love to know. I mean, obviously we would never say, but I would love to know, like, who was it and what became of them? To complain about the boob dance. The boob dance is harmless. The boob dance was like, like, like. It was like, and also, like, because I was trained as, like, a ballet dancer, I don't really have, like, cool dance moves.

So when I would go out, like, you know, the, like, New York City teenager, like, sneaking out, going to clubs at, like, 17 years old, I had, like, one signature move. And it was, like, it was, it was similar to the boob dance. And it was like, it was just like, it involved, like, going like this. Yeah. Side, side. As you should. Yeah. That is so funny.

I hate the idea that you were reprimanded for the boob dance. I know. But you know what? I've done it several times since then. Like, I was like, okay, I can't do it in school anymore. But then I got it back. Dude, I remember the locker room was such a, there was this big thing at my school where, like, elementary school, you don't change out for gym.

and then it was like when you get to sixth grade you start changing out for gym. That was like a thing that we all knew. Yeah. And I would say starting in fourth grade, I began to have this like terrible anxiety about changing out for gym because I was fat and I was like the only fat boy in my class.

And I was like, oh my God. And my body was such a sight of like confusion and embarrassment. And I was just like, oh my God, like how am I going to. And also around like third grade was when I started to feel like to, I didn't really have words for it at the time, but I started to understand that I was like gay. And so I was like, oh my God, like being naked with these guys. Like, what if I have a crush?

And I'm like, what if I get like a boner? Like I just, the whole thing was like, it's that thing where I'm like, I literally felt like the universe was collapsing on it. I was like, this will destroy me. And I spent like two fucking four years in telling no one because it was so complicated. I didn't tell anyone. Like not my friends, not my mom. And then I felt shame because I told my mom everything.

And I was like dealing with this thing that I wasn't telling her. It was the only thing I wasn't telling her. Two years of like agony about this. And then I remember the first day of Jim. class in sixth grade when we had to change out. And it was like, no big deal. It was like, yeah, no one was looking at each other. Everyone was embarrassed.

Like, there was one guy who was like, like, very classically being like, well, let's whip each other with the towels or whatever because he watched like a movie he shouldn't have. But other than that, everyone was just like towel around them, underwear off, underwear up, like in their own space. And then there was another part where like some of the boys were like more brazen about it, good for them. But I, it was no big deal.

And it was one of the first times that I was like. Like, you really spent two years, like, being sick. Sometimes it would come to me in the middle of a day when I hadn't thought about it for a second. And I would just be like, I was so anxious. I know. And then it was nothing. But we can I ask you something? Oh, yeah.

So, you know, so you said there that you knew that you were gay. Yeah. But when you first came out, you said you were bisexual. Yes. So what, can you explain what that experience was like, like, to be like, I think I was gay, then I thought I was bisexual because you loved Julia Roberts. Yeah. But then you thought you were, then you were gay.

So basically what I mean by I knew I was gay. was like there was this, I have like a pretty vivid memory of like in, I look back on a lot of things from before like third grade even when I, a lot of the like feelings that I felt that I didn't have words for, they weren't romantic and they weren't sexual because I was a child, but there were feelings that I was like, oh, this is different. And then like third grade we were doing like playground marriages. Like everyone was being married on the playground. Kids are so weird. And I remember maybe I said it out loud, but for some reason or another, it came to my mind that I wanted to marry, like, my friend Tyler.

I was like, if we're, like, that's why I, like, hang out with the most, like, that I want to marry Tyler. And then I think I said it to someone, and they're like, oh, no, that's just because he's your friend. This is a different thing. And I was like, oh, okay, marriage is not your friend. It's, like, a different thing. But I was like, no, I was kind of like, oh, yeah, for sure. But in my head, I was like, I think I actually knew that it was a different thing.

And I was into it. And then from there on, I was like, oh, I started to learn, like, around the night. I came up in church and, like, gay was bad. and it was a thing, like, there was no, like, nuance conversation around, like, human sexuality at my church in Missouri. So bisexual was not, like, an op. There was no other thing. Right, it was just, like,

gay is bad. Right, there was no curiosity. There was no exploration. There was, like, if you do this thing, you are bad, and this is the right thing. And then, I really did think I was, for all the frotness, I seem to have had with the bi community over the years. I do love you guys. But I really thought, like, oh, maybe I'm bi, because I love women.

And I love hanging out with men and there were girls that like I had such a strong feeling for that I was like maybe that's love and then it came time to like be physical with the girls like to like make out and stuff and I was like I'm really not into this but I was into the feeling of like someone wanting to kiss me and me wanting to make them feel good and the connection of like there were girls that I dated that I was like I have so much love for you that I'm just confused and then the first time I hooked up with a guy I was like oh that is so clearly like the only thing I want to be doing and I was like that is like, that's the ticket, maybe. That's the good stuff. I was like, hey, whoa,

what's going on here? And then I was like, oh shit, we figured it out. What was going on inside your body at that moment? Oh, my God. All the little, all the little guys were like, never get us out of this. All the little guys in my body that were trying to come up with a joke earlier, they're sipping drinks out of coconuts. They're relaxing on the beach. Yeah, so then I, but then I was like, I came out as by anyway because I felt that it would be like a softer launching point. A lot of people have had a problem with that when I've said it. That's the reality. Grow up. Sorry.

Sometimes things have to be easier when you're from rural Missouri. And yeah, and then I basically in college, I just kind of was like, everyone just kind of knew. Yeah. Like, I think when I met Chance, you just knew. I was like just out at that point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I still feel that way. Yeah, I know. I know, but the job's a job, right? But yeah, that was the journey. But yeah, I think it was so confusing, and it would have been so much less confusing had we just had, I didn't, my mom's household was not a conservative, intense place to grow up. My mom had gay friends.

My mom was very open. It was all the outside shit. Yeah. And it's what I worry about with my little cousins who are both boys that I'm like, they're being raised in such a progressive, loving, like, feminist household that their dad is so great and their mom is so great. Like, and even my extended family, like, they have so much love and support. and like good values. And I'm just so fucking worried about these boys that they're going to be around

in the way that that's going to hold so much more weight than mom and so much more weight than dad. And I'm just, I actually just read The Will to Change by Bell Hooks. Have you read it? No, I haven't. It's phenomenal. And I've been thinking a lot about this

because it really is the, like, when patriarchy starts to like hurt boys, the first, like the real first site where it really takes hold, even if you're raised in a feminist household, is with the boys you're friends with. Yeah. It's so intense. Yeah.

I worry about it. Yeah, I know. We need to like, we need to just give all boys little strollers to push around. Little strollers to push around. And a conversation, yeah, I think I'm more, I will say my mom, we've talked a lot in my adulthood about, like, like I said, she was never, like, repressive or conservative in any way. But she definitely, I think, had some, like, insecurities about being a single mother and what it meant to raise a man as a single mother. And so sex wasn't really talked about a lot. And like some open conversations about sex, I think, would have been really healthy and, like, productive.

Yeah, that's a, that's a good one. My, I had a board game to learn about sex. Did you? Yeah. And it was not, um, sex, you know, I mean, I'll just, I'll never forget the story of the book. It was a book and a board game. Yeah. And it was like how you make a baby.

Yeah. Okay. So that was like the sex that I was taught. And it was. is a book and I'll never forget this. In the book, they start out for the couple that was like going to work in the morning.

I might be getting some of this wrong, but the main stuff is right. They were like going to work in the morning and they were really looking forward to seeing each other at night. And then they saw each other at night, but then they got into a big fight and they didn't want to talk to each other. And then like one of the pictures is like the man like making food and then it's like the woman like doing something else and they're like not talking.

but then like one of them apologizes to the other and they start to like be like okay and then they like start hugging and the hugging leads to kissing like I'll never forget there was like a fight before the sex and then they start making out and one thing that's another and they go to the bedroom

and then it was like you learned like the you know the penis going into the vagina I don't know if it showed that but it showed the two people in bed and then it like explained the sperm's journey to like you know the egg and all that and I remember my mom I was like home sick from school one day and my mom like presented the board game to me and that's how I learned about it was like through the board game and then we had friends over a few days later and I said mom my mom I want to play the board game with whoever the girl

was that was over and my mom sat into the friends it was like oh it's like a board game about like conception or whatever sex and how you have a baby. And the parents are like, ooh, I don't. I don't think we want our kid playing with your weird daughter's sex board game. And I was like, oh, that's so weird. Why can't? Okay. And then I was like, oh, I guess there's like something like wrong about this game.

Like this game is like hot. That is so funny. There was no other conversation. It was in game. It was just a game. I need to find that game. I need to know about that game. Oh, I need to know what that game is too.

Maybe you can try and look it up. It was called the Nelson game. It was from Eunice. No, it was like sex. It was like... Sex marks the spot. Sex on the cards. Sex educate me.

It was like it was about how to make a baby for kids. You do some research, Hans, and that's not what you find. I want to know so bad. I mean, yeah, it's such a, it's so fucking, I also have, like, obviously, total grace because it's like, who wants to fucking talk

about sex with kids? I know it's so fucking awkward. So I'm like, I don't know, I guess, why I would have had you do. I don't have a kid. I don't know how I would approach it, but it is weird. But don't you think it's just that you don't ever hide it?

Right. Like, sex is sex. Yeah. So it's like, at one point, like, the question of, like, how, How did I come to be? You could say, well, like, two people loved each other very much. And, like, when you love someone, you can express it.

And when you express it, you can express it in different ways. And there's a way in which you can express it, in which you can have a baby. You know, like, variants of something like that. And then, like, little by little, you know, and you, and you, you tailor it to your particular family. So it's like... Yes, but you're totally right. And that is a healthy way to do it. The thing that gets me tripped up is like Holmes has a really funny story about this,

my friend Holmes, but like just when the kids start getting, when their body is changing. Yes. And when the things are happening that like, you know, they are like a lot of times girls will be masturbating and not know it yet. Like they don't know why they're doing that.

Or like boys are getting erections all the time. Those are the moments when I'm like, okay, there's no part of me that wants you to feel ashamed. Also, you can't be jerking off in front of company. But like, can't you call that private time?

Yeah. Just be like, Oh, that's totally fine. Like, go do private time. I'm pulling this out of my butt right now. But don't you get scared. Then it'll be like, shame. Like, go do that away.

Don't let anyone know that you do that. Oh. I get scared. I'm like, I just want you to feel it's such a fucking tight wire. And you're going to, the thing is you're going to mess up no matter what. It's just going to be weird. But I'm like, how do you make sure it's a confident and security? Okay, what if it's like this?

Yeah. What if it's that, like, nudity is never wrong. Yeah. So, like, like, like, you have guests over and, like, like your kid is like naked or whatever, you know, because you get to a certain age where like you don't really want to be naked. But like you're, let's think about like when you're like young, young and you're kind of like, oh, I'm just wearing like underwear on my head. And that's fine. But then when it like comes to, I don't know, like masturbation or or anything else, like, it's kind of like,

oh, like that's totally fine. But that part of being naked, it's good to do that alone. Yeah. Oh, it's good. You know what? Good to do that alone is nice. Maybe something like that. You're going to be okay at this stuff. No, we'll see. When this comes around, you should give your kids the board game. You should give your kid the board game. I need to find the board. Have you found the board game?

I mean, in this post, you know, cards against humanity, hellscape we live in, every sex board game is, there's too many results. Okay. Well, I'm going to, I'll have to figure it out and I'll have to follow up about it. Figure it out and let us know because we'd love to, we'd love to stock it on our March site. You do a club. Well, this is a parenting podcast more than anything. Oh, God.

No. Not this episode. I'm talking about so true in general. Oh, so true in general. This podcast first and foremost was started to help parents raise their children. And I think we've done an incredible job. This is the closest I think I came. Does that ring a bell?

No, it's not that. You know what? There's going to be one other thing. This might speak to some of the women who are listening to this podcast. But there was that puberty book that every single girl was given. I don't remember what it was called. that puberty book had character like drawings in it

and I think it was the same artist could be completely wrong I remember the day in like fifth grade when they told us that they're like boys are going to go to one room and girls to another we're going to talk about boy and girl stuff I was pissed because I was like where are you taking my girls

I was like bring back my girls I was so livid I was like no you can't take my girls I was infuriated. And then we go into another room and they're like, you guys have to wear deodorant. I'm like, so do the girls. Bring my girls in here now.

What were the girls told? Did you ever find out? It was different. It was like, the thing is, there are parts about it that I'm like, there are, like, it makes sense, like, the different things they were talking about. But then I found out from one of my girlfriends that they were like, there was like a conversation about,

like, you know, if someone ever asked to touch you and you don't want them to, you're allowed to say no. And I vividly remember they did not say that to us. and I was like, that applies to everybody. That is like a conversation that should have been teaching the class. Hello. I was like, I remember being like, why didn't they tell us that? Like I was like now as an adult, I'm especially like, why didn't they tell us that?

But yeah, yeah, I remember there was a consent piece to theirs that we, I will say we had, I remember in middle school we had a consent conversation that was actually like really informed and cool by a male teacher that I still remember. But in fifth grade, no such thing for the boys. Wow, that's interesting. Yeah. Can I ask you another question? You can.

What was it like to film the Devil Wears product too? We're turning the tables. It's actually become my podcast right now. That's the way to do it, by the way. That's my big secret. I mean, dude, it was so cool. It's so funny that, like, how do I say this? So many people have asked in my life and also, like, for press.

like what was it like working with merrill and anne and stan and emily and i'm like all the things you would think of course fantastic of course amazing genuinely one of the things i was most excited about before the table read and then especially after was like our crew of like you and simone and helen and daniel and like every like all the like young like the new crowd basically that i was like that is so fucking cool that like we are like so many of us are doing like tv and theater and music and like comedy and like we're from all these different parts of the like creative kind of like world and now we're getting to be in this movie I was just so excited about that and then when we got to hang out on set I was just like this is the coolest thing ever I know the day

was it like two days that we work together or one day was it three it was at least two so fun yeah like it was so fun it was the best um can you even believe it that it's crazy how did you that what like what that's how I feel I still feel that way like first of all that movie

is is perfect the first one if you it is timeless and also did you when you like first read the script the second one my thought was like

Aline Brosh McKenna predicts the future because like this was like before on a winter you know announced that she was kind of retiring from Vogue-ish and it was like

oh this is like and not even that the movie necessarily addresses that but it's like it was so finger on the pulse I was I just wow she's so great everyone was so great I'm like wow and

also the outfit. Yeah. I was nervous because I didn't know. I was like, oh, it's this big fashion movie. And I love the, I have so much, like, the original means like you, like all of us. Like, the original is like, holy fucking grail to me. And I was so nervous about the costumes because I didn't know Molly and I didn't know Danny who were doing it.

I mean, I knew of Molly's work. Right. But I was like, I've had so many nightmare experiences as a fat person in this industry. It is so horrific. I will go, I've gone to photo shoots where they asked me to do the photo shoot, can we please photograph you for our publication? And I go and they do not have a single piece of clothing that fits me. Like they just don't, they are not prepared. They're not used to having a fat person in them.

They have no idea what to do. And I knew, I had like trust, of course. I was like, this is a huge movie with a huge, like, talented, it will be fine. But I didn't know the extent to how awesome it would be. And Danny and Molly, who like predominantly worked on my character, Charlie's clothing, were so fucking prepared. It was crazy. Okay, the movie, when did you...

How did you find out you were going to be in the movie? Oh my gosh, I was going to ask you the same thing. Tell me yours. Okay, I found out... Okay, so I put myself on tape for... You know, I was not even the script or anything. It was like two really short scenes. And one was for Alana, the character I ended up playing.

And the other one was for Marta, the one that Priya plays. And I was like... I was like, oh my God, I'm so excited. I did like 80 takes. I was just like, oh, my God. And for sure was like, well, if I get one, it's going to be Marta. Like, Alana, I just, I didn't vibe.

And then I didn't hear anything except my agent who texted me was like, you're pinned for Devil Wears Product too. I had never heard the word pinned. Like I didn't, I was like pinned like, I was like, right? I haven't heard that in years, by the way. kind of an old. Because then, Reddit helped me understand

that it had to do with being pinned to the wall of like where they were, okay. So, but, so I was like, okay, and then I didn't hear anything

for a really long time and then I got a phone call from like two of my agents who were like, like, congrats on Devil Wears Prada too. And I was like, oh my God,

I'm gonna do it? And they were like, yeah, we were calling. I was like, okay, great. And I was so excited. Yeah. That was how I found out.

That's so cool. How did you find out? I was kind of on, I had kind of told my team, like, I'm not auditioning right now. Like, I was like, I'm tired. I'm going out for so many things. It's taping is so much work, as you know. So much work. And I was like, you know, I'm like going on tour.

I'm like working on the hour. I was about to put the hour out or something. And I was like, I'm just like, I'm good on auditioning right now. I was like, you can send whatever you want, but they're probably all knows. And then, of course, this came through. And I was like, well, I think we all know I'll be taping for that. And same thing. I like, I like, but it didn't say what my role was.

The role, like, it said, like, assistant to character I had never heard of. Yeah. And I was like, why would there be a character I've never heard of that has an assistant with this many lines? And I was like, I think that's a fake out, but whatever. And I was like, I don't care regardless. It was an interesting character. I liked the character. And so I was like, I taped and then sent it off and really did forget about it because I was like,

I really genuinely is like, I am not getting this role and that's okay. hey, I want to audition anyway. Yeah. And not because I didn't think I'd be great at it, but because I was just like, I can think of like the five gay guys who get a role like this, and I will be very happy for them when they do.

Sure. And then I was at lunch with my friend, Sydney Washington, who's been on the show. It was very funny. We were getting lunch in Brooklyn. It was raining. And I, my team, my team has not asked me this,

but they've intimated that I need to, they're like, basically they asked me a number of times when we got really good news if I was excited. and happy because I am very logistically, like, business-minded. Like, I hear something, and I'm like, I will be excited, so excited internally and happy and grateful. And later on, when I'm alone with the thought, like, a day later, I'll cry and be so happy

and excited and have all the emotions. But in the moment, I'm like, what is the rate? What is the shooting location? Where are we going? Where does it fit into the calendar? Like, will they put me up? Like, I just start thinking. And so oftentimes when I get big career-defining news, my reaction will be like,

okay, sounds good. Email me the information, and I'll get back to you. you guys, like, I'm just very like that. What? But they had given me their reactions already in the past to things where I had kind of of not given them enough. Because they work so hard. They want you to be excited.

Right, right, of course. And I am and they know that. But anyway, they told me, there was a big call with a bunch of one there. They're like, they're like, hey, hope you're still free in whatever, September or whatever, like, because you'll be filming the Devil Wars Product 2 as Charlie. And if my brain did the thing where I was like, okay, yeah, we'll squeeze that in between whatever. But I caught myself.

and I was like, oh my God. I'm like standing in the rain. I was like, you guys, we did it. But my brain is still being like, how are we going to fit that? Like, what are we going to do? So logistics. Wow. But I did the performance and they were all very pleased.

And I was that happy. But then I went back into lunch with Sydney. And she was like, what was that? And I was like, I think I'm going to be in the devil horse product. Oh, my God. It's like crazy. You can't even. Also, I will say, I have had so many friends, especially in comedic roles.

book something huge and then get like completely cut out. No mention, no sight. Yeah. And so there is always this thing in the back of my head that I'm like, even when I've showed up on set, even when I've done the job, I try to keep it real contained and humble because things change. And it has most of the time nothing to do with you. A hundred percent.

It's like I think you even sit on one of your episodes, I forget who the guest was, but you were saying when you got cast in Fargo and your mom like posted on Facebook and it's like, no, no, no, no, you have to take that down. like I feel the exact same way. Like it's not until it's out. Like, I can't, it's, it's not real yet. It'll be real on May 1st. When it'll be real on May 1st.

When it's in theaters, go see it. It'll be very real then. Yeah, it's, you just don't want to, like, jinx it or also you just, yeah, you're in so little control of what it is in the end. But that's amazing that your brain, you kind of, like, act like your own manager, where you're like, okay, like we have to get into the logistics to make sure that It's not the logistics that are going to prevent me from doing it. Like, we have to really, like, we have to really just know what's going on.

Yeah, and I'm sure on some level, like, it's like, well, I think part of it's just that I came up so DIY and, like, doing everything myself that I still, I'm getting much better. But I still struggle internally with, like, handing things off and giving things over. And don't worry, I'm working on it, y'all. They're all probably right now, like, no, you don't. But I do, and it's hard. And then I think also it's probably on some level. If I was in therapy, they would probably tell me at some level of trying to protect myself. Yeah, yeah.

You know, from that thing of like, am I going to get cut out of this? Are they going to take it away? Are they going to change their mind? Yeah, it's really, God, it's so, so strange to audition for things and just wait and hope. And, like, I remember once I was really close to getting this play in Paris. And I wanted this so bad. The director did something like so sadistic where she made the girl who I was up against and me auditioned like the final callback in front of each other. And I remember I was like fully off book.

It was a long monologue. It was fully off book. I was like, I want this more than anything. And the other girl I was up against was not off book and like kept like forgetting things. I mean like, oh, sorry, sorry. So I was like, okay, well like the proof is in the pudding. I fucking did the work. Say that.

I did not get the part. I wailed like someone had died. I remember being on the floor of my studio apartment slamming the ground. And just being it doesn't get better. I mean, it's like it's never going to go up. And then like I think four months later at cast on sex size of college girls. But see, very different than your reaction. When I was told I got cast on sex size of college girls, I said,

shut the fuck up. And then the next. say I called my agent manager at the time back and I said I'm I'm really sorry like that was so inappropriate for me to say and they were like no we totally get it but I felt so guilty like still I'm like oh my god you said like shut the fuck up that's like so rude but it was like that was my reaction that is so funny I had there was a there was a um a role like two years into me acting that I had been up for so many things I'd gotten none of them I mean I'd done like Fargo and stuff. I had done my original things.

But then there was this real period of like the only thing going was internet stuff. And I was so like I don't want to be doing internet stuff. It just doesn't fill me up. Like I just don't know what to do. And I got really close. I got like third callback chemistry test with Andrew Rannels. And I loved the show and I knew many of the writers and I knew like the producers.

And I was like, I'm going to get this. Like something's finally going to go. And then I didn't get in the guy who got it is so great. I forget his name, but he was wonderful in it. and I was just like, after that, I was so devastated, and it was like months of me being like, you might need to just like find another passion. Like, this might not happen for you.

This is me all the time. This is me all the time. I feel like it's, I'm not, I constantly feel like I'm not doing my career right. Yeah. I'm like, I'm not doing this right. I, and I don't know what right is per se. Like, you know, I'm kind of like,

oh, I should be like fully devoted to living in L.A. Or like, fully doing something I'm not. And I constantly feel like I'm not doing it right and that people know I'm not doing it right. And they're like, yeah, not her. We're not really interested in her. Like, I find that any time I actually was talking to my best friend the other day who had a self-tape and she was like, well, I really want this one. So we know what that means. Yep.

You're not going to get it. And I had that the other day too. I had this like Zoom audition. And I was like, I want this so badly. and like I usually like, like, I just say it. Like I'll say it. I'm like, just please, I just want this so badly. To them?

Yeah. I love that. And I think that like, sometimes I think my like earnestness and sincerity like is, it's not a quality. Like I should have a persona of something else because I think that it, like I cannot help but feel like sometimes it's the thing preventing me from getting from like booking roles. but I had this thing and I was like, I really want this.

So do you have everything you need? They were like, well, we're happy if you're happy. I'm like, yes, I'm happy. But like, do you have everything you need? I'm just so, you know, but whatever. It's so hard. The auditioning stuff is so, so hard. And I, oh, God, I really, it's like,

I sometimes I like rue the day that I rue the day COVID happened, but like where, you know, everything became Zoom and like, because I'm like, I don't see anyone, any person anymore. And then other days I'm like, no, this is the best thing that could ever happen because you can now be in control. But like, I do 80 takes. Like, whoever's doing the self-tape with me is like, oh, my God. Another one.

I'm like, and the thing is I go with like the second one each time. But like I don't learn my lesson. Yes. It's, oh, God, I just, I love working. And so, and, you know, the ego of an actress. also that you like being chosen. Yeah. And so it's hard sometimes

when you go for like a long period without being chosen because you're like, what's wrong with me? Like, what am I doing wrong? Nothing. I love your earnestness and sincerity, by the way. Okay.

I think they're beautiful traits. I think you should never lose them. And I have something really unfortunate to tell you, which is, I think I've booked like most of my jobs by 100% negging them. Like I'm like in the audition room being like, you guys can offer this to me

if you want to, but I doubt I'll take it. And it's like clearly a joke, but I will say that anytime I've ever been... You're so right, but it's like dating. It's like, it's like, okay, everyone's like no games. It's like, no, there has to be games a little bit. Like, you have to kind of... We crave games.

Like, you can't just completely be like, you know, oh, I feel this way about you. And this is exactly what I'm looking for. Like, you have to play hard to get a little bit. Like, you have to be a little like, oh, like, a little like cheesy, cheesy, like, oh. It's the same thing. thing I'm convinced with like auditioning. You're so right. I like never talk

about my partner but I'm going to give like an anecdote that he said where he was like um he says he was like you know people say that when you start dating someone they're like just be yourself and he's like that's actually not great advice. You don't want to be like completely yourself.

The yourself is going to come out. You want like you like you want to put in an effort. Yeah. You know you don't want to just like immediately because like And that's the thing is like, yeah, that's where the romance builds. It's like a little like, let me like, let me show you the romantic side of me. Yeah.

And like I kind of, I fuck with that. I like, yeah, we want to like put in a little bit of like an effort not just be like, oh my God, I'm so obsessed with you. Like, nonstop, nonstop, nonstop. Like that kind of, you know, will crash and burn after a while. Yeah. I think. A little fizzle. Maybe.

What's so true to you? Oh, God. There's a lot. you know, unlike some of your other guests. Don't I know it? And don't I know it? Try being me. These people don't respect me, Paul.

I suffer from a case of like earnestness, sincerity and good student syndrome. So I have a few so true things. I'm going to do one that, like, is a little, like, trivial, but I feel pretty, I'm going to stand by it. Yeah. I think pitted olives should mean olives with pits. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

I think pitted olives, meaning that the pits have been taken out, makes no sense. Yeah. Because they've really been depitted is what they've been. They've been depitted. You're right. So that is so true to me. And can I say something else to that effect? Yeah.

There should, in my opinion, and I know I'm going to catch heat on this, there should never be a pit in there. I don't like them. Why is there something in there that can hurt me? Get him out of here. I know. But it's also a little reward. And take the shell off the shrimp.

What are you saying? No, I eat the shell. Oh, do you? Yeah, I eat that whole thing. I put that head in that tail. You eat the head? Mm-hmm. You do not eat the tail.

I do. I eat the head in the tail. You do not. I do not. I do. You're dead ass right now. I'm dead ass. And you want to know how I'm so validated by it?

I had a Spanish friend growing up. And her family made like shrimp a lot. Yeah. And once it was her birthday party. Cameroni. And is that what the? They were called. Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. I speak zero Spanish. It's embarrassing. But I do speak French. You speak really good French. And Italian. Like, I can get by an Italian. Okay.

But they made shrimp for her birthday. And I was seated at the table. Again, a case of earnestness and sincerity and wanting to be the best student. I, like, made sure I was, like, the best, like, most proper child at the table. And there were kids, like, oh, my God, why are we not having pizza? Like, what is the shrimp? Whatever. and I saw the dad like just eat the shrimp whole

and so I started doing it and this girl's mom came over to me and was like oh my god like you you're a really good eater you're like this white girl's got motion she's eating the tails oh my god like and then I was like this is how you're supposed to eat shrimp

so anyway that is going back to your shell you know the skin on the on the shrimp thing my god dude I I want it taking off because I can eat, oh, here's what I can do. I can eat, I can eat the tail, I can eat the head. Okay. I can handle, or the legs. I can handle the little shell on it. That's fine. Preferably, if you're making shrimp, I prefer that you just, you can come out with the tail on it.

But when they bring it out, full head, full tail, legs, skin, I'm like, I'm hungry than that. Like, I don't have time to be going to work right now. You don't like having to work for your food. Not at all. Yeah, I had this thing where like I hated, I was vegetarian for a really long time and I didn't, I couldn't eat meat. Like I just couldn't do it. And then I was in Zimbabwe. And I was on this like kind of almost month long trip with my best friend and her mom who works for doctors without borders. And we went around the country.

And our guide, this amazing guy named Sam, one night was like, we're going to go get a chicken for dinner. So there was no like saying, I'm sorry, I just don't eat meat. It was like, okay, like I'm going to have to just eat the chicken. and the strangest thing happened. Well, first of all, the story of getting the chicken was literally just walking into like a woman's property with chickens riding around and him being like, we're going to take that one.

They wrung the neck at the chicken, they put it in a white bag. We go to where we were staying. Sam was like, I have to get something from the car. The chicken came back to life. No. The chicken came back to life. The bag like fell off the table.

Never have I jumped up on a chair faster. And then Sam came back and he was like, you just have to ring the neck again. And I was like, I can't do that. Snap its snack. But he did it. And then I was like, if I'm going to eat this chicken, I have to watch exactly how it is made.

So I went out back with Sam and I did the whole thing. I poured boiling water on the chicken to take all the feathers off, like cut it open, took out all the pieces we weren't going to eat, whatever. Then we like, you know, grilled it. And I ate it. And I really enjoyed it. And so I realized that I'm the opposite.

I think that, like, in order to eat, especially, like, animal products, I need to, like, see the whole kind of thing. I get a little gross out if I don't know where it's coming from. I like seeing this side of you. It's a little frightening and also fascinating and beautiful. Right. You're so much stronger than me. I'm, like, very impressed and intimidated. If I watch, I can't, if I watch someone cut the head off the chicken, I'm not having dinner at all, period.

Let alone that chicken. You're so strong and cool for that because that would freak me the fuck out. Oh. If it charged at me and then he was like, ring its neck? We're going to eat it. I'd be like, I'm actually all good on food, brother. Paul, you want to play a game? Yeah, I know.

Yeah, let's play. How are you feeling about the game? I'm feeling really nervous about the game. Yeah. You're going to be great. I probably won't. I'm really bad with rapid fire. Okay.

Well, as you know, I'm going to read you 15 statements. You're going to tell me as quickly as you can if what I just said was true or false. And if you get 10 or more correct, we're going to give you $50. All right. You ready? Yeah. Okay. John Sina's real name is John Lombardo.

False. False. It's John Sina. The Nintendo DS debuted in 2001. False. False, 2004. Elephants are the largest land animals. False.

True. True. The Sierra Desert is in South America. False. False Africa. Bard College's motto is, I shall give thee the crown of life. True. That is true.

Kesha is six foot tall. False. She's 5'9. Hexagon has five sides. True. False. Six. The Great Barrier...

You knowing. The Great Barrier... Reef is in the Indian Ocean. False. It's in the Pacific. All insects have six legs. False. True.

Oh, wow. I didn't know that. Oberon is the king of the fairies in a midsummer night's dream. False. That's true. No, it's true. It's true. It's true.

Because Tatiana's his wife or something. Yeah, whatever. Okay. The New York Knicks have won two NBA championships. True. That is true. The capital of Spain is Barcelona. False.

False. In Madrid. Crocodiles can breathe underwater. False. False. All months have at least 28 days. True. True. The National Animal of France is the swan. False. It's the rooster. How'd she do? 11.

You did really good because technically I would, I'm not going to give you 13, but there were two that you definitely knew that you second guess. I think you got 13. Yeah, yeah, but it's okay. I'm bad with rapid fire. I hate being under pressure. You got 11. Okay, 11, so I got $50. Incredibly good student. You get $50. Oh my God. And that's our episode. Do you want to tell people, well, you're in the Devil We're Prada? You're in the Devil We're in the Devil Warris product. Everyone needs to check out Caleb Heron in the Devil's Prada on May 1st. They're going on.

How else can people support you? Is there something they should watch a place they should go? Actually, I might do this like avant-garde monologue in November in New York City. So if anybody wants to see that, it's going to be at the Alliance on the Upper East Side in the Sky Room. And maybe I'll post about it on Instagram. Will you remember to tell me about that? I really want to call it. I will.

It's it's avant-garde. French theater. I can't wait. Okay. I just recently watched a woman in Europe scream for an hour straight while drinking a glass of milk. Oh, I'm down for the weird. What was this? I'll say about a off camera because I want to tell you the full details.