So True with Caleb Hearon - Wally Baram Loves Snakes

Episode Date: February 19, 2026

Welcome! This week’s guest is the hilarious Wally Baram! Wally and Caleb talk the finer points of snake ownership, destroying pieces of ancient art, home brewing, enterprise, and so much more!  Join our Substack for ad free full episodes, early access to merch, our community chat, and more! https://calebsaysthings.substack.com/  Follow Wally! @wallybaram Follow the show! @sooootruepod  Follow Caleb! @calebsaysthings  Produced by Chance Nichols @chanceisloud Head to https://squarespace.com/sotrue for a free trial, and when you’re ready to launch, use OFFER CODE: SoTrue to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Try Trü Frü! Blue bags with fruit found in the freezer aisle! So True with Caleb Hearon is edited and engineered by Nicole Lyons. Our social media manager is Virginia Muller. All episodes are filmed in The So Trudio at Legitimate Business World Headquarters in Brooklyn, New York.  A Wave series. wavesportsandentertainment.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Wave But a lot of straight men are incurious And I don't think that it makes them Evil, but I think that their lives and the lives of people around them And ultimately then the world Would be better if they would pursue some curiosity in their lives.

You know what I mean? That was awesome. I'm so bad at being bad at stuff. It really upsets me. Yeah, I get that. And it's become like pathological. Like I hate being bad at stuff. and I'll do anything to not be bad at something.

And I'm like, um, exposure therapy actively trying this decade of my life. I think the, my, like my 20s were all about mastering, um, and figuring out comedy.

I don't know that I've mastered it, but I mean, like I got really good at like what I do and I figured out like how I write jokes and what I think is funny. And that took a decade or more. And now I'm trying to make my 30s about being bad at stuff again. Because I hate it. Yeah.

I hate, it makes me, do you have this? I have almost the reverse of that. I'm so willing to be bad at something that I can't take a signal. No, I like tried to surf for so long. No one has ever been worse at surfing than me. And I like kept trying and trying and trying. And at some point, even my friends were like, maybe you just, maybe you just don't do that one. Maybe you're not a surfer.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I have the opposite. But I could use that. I could drop. I should drop things. I should stop doing things.

I don't know that you should. I think it's really, I think it's an exercise in humility. I think it's so good to be bad at things. And I'm so, like I said, it's become like a pathology. Like I literally can't. What does pathology mean?

Am I using that correctly? Like I said pathological and it felt right. And then I said pathology. And I'm like, am I right that that is what that means? Pathology is the medical science branch focused on studying the causes, mechanisms, and the extent of diseases to enable diagnosis and treatment. What does pathological mean?

run pathological up for me real quick. Relating to pathology. That's not fair. They need to work on that. No, but it's become like a thing that I'm like, I have like a crippling fear of being bad at things almost. And I'll do anything to get out of it. So this decade of my life is about being bad at things on the way to being good at them.

And it's actually so funny because my brain. My brain is a fascinating site where I can turn anything about myself. Like I literally am like, I'm going to be good at being bad at things. And it's like, stop. Like it literally is like I'll do anything to get, you know, like it's really, really, really clinical. It's crazy. Are you trying to get good at things that are. Also, are we, how do I know when we're going?

We're going now. Oh, we're going right now. Okay, good. How do you, are you trying to be good at things for like professional? like you're trying to be good at, at, oh, you know, within professional realm or like hobby stuff? I would like to have hobbies and I want to be good at things.

I do have, I have hobbies. Like I like to read. I like to bicycle. I like to go to museums. Like I am not a- You like to bicycle? Like around on the street? Yes.

Do you like it? No, I'm terrified of it. Really? Yes, and it feels like such, feels so dangerous and people look so just like, idle-minded when they're doing. it feels like a duck before it's about to get, well, that's brutal. It feels like a duck before, well.

That I don't know. I'm always fascinated by bicycler. Do you do it for like, oh, I'm going on a little trip or you go in places on your bicycle? Oh, I, to me, a day of traveling, like if I'm in a new city, my favorite thing is to find an e-bike and hit the town. I like to bike all over the place. That is a day of activity for me. Just biking through the city, stopping when I want something. I'll be like, oh, I want a coffee.

Let me go find one. And then I'll bike to it. Do you wear a hard hat? I wear a helmet when I have access to one, but I'll admit a lot of times I don't. And that's really bad and people should not be doing that. It's scary, man. It's really bad. You guys need to wear a helmet.

Me on the other hand, it's complicated. But I know you should. It's just like sometimes you're in a different city and you don't have a helmet with you and you want to hit the e-bike. Sometimes you want to hit the e-bike. Yeah, you want to hit the e-bike. e-bike bad and am I scared no I think like look if that's the way I got to go yeah if I go out on an e-bike in Paris take me do you know what I mean yeah people go in such worse ways I think that all the time my hobbies are always like very I have very like adrenaline to be fair I'm talking on the

smack on a bicycle and I very like my hobbies are like I like to like go fishing but in the way where you like stand in the water and so all these like you know the waves are kind of coming at you or um i've seen you with a snake wrapped around your net yeah i like snakes i like snakes so and i but i feel like okay if i'm gonna go let it be this like this is gonna be sick i'm going on this like motorcycle trip in mongolia over the summer and everyone's like aren't you afraid well i guess that's a cycle isn't it hello but it's a cycle that's way more dangerous i'm talking about biking on a protected lane in Brooklyn and you're talking about riding a motorcycle in Mongolia. It's true.

But I think there's something about a motorcycle that acknowledges the danger of the situation where it's like, yeah, we're, we're, we're, we're, I can't defend it. No, that's really fair actually. Yeah. I think there is two, I'm a prime example. There's a too relaxed of an attitude about bicycling. I get on that thing and I'm going 15 miles an hour, no helmet, smiling. Yeah. Like a, like a, like 15 death machines aren't passing me per second.

You're humming. Thousands. Oh, I'm singing out loud. I literally, I can't tell you the number of times. I can't tell you the number of times on a bike ride. I want to cry because I'm so happy. I love it. It's so fun. It's just fun to move quick through. And you're like in the world, you can see things happening. It's fun. Also, this is a fun position. This is fun. Yeah. And when you get to go around a pothole or something, it's like, hello. Bike, okay, wait, hold on. He's king of town. How did we end up at snakes? Oh, hobbying. Hobbying. No, I'm saying how did you end up at snakes? Oh, oh, I thought I'm in the conversation. How did I... It's a story that's like... I wish it was a different story

because it feels like I prepared this story, but it's just how it happened. I was in high school, and I was started... Went down like a rabbit hole on Reddit of ball pythons and I thought they were so cool and then I was talking to someone

that I was buying weed from about it and he was like, oh, I got tons of ball pythons. I breed ball python. and I was like, whoa, that's crazy. I have tons of ball python. It is crazy. Well, people that have ball pythons have tons of them. They're like, they collect them.

And then he was like, I have to go away for a while. This is then cut to some time. He said, I have to go away for a while. Will you take the ball pythons? And I think he said he was going to the army, but I don't know what you have. He was going to. And then he was like, I need to leave.

You need to take these ball pythons. And I was like, oh, okay. And then I took his, I took all of his ball pythons. And then I was like, well, this is way too many. How many are we talking? 12 ball pythons. Christ, Royce. And I was like, I got to get rid of these things.

And so then I took him to the petster and I was like, how much for all these ball pythons? They were like, we don't have enough money for all these ball pythons. and I was like... Wait, he gave you an expensive amount of snakes for free? Yes, which makes me think that he was going away in a bad way. Maybe he was... I don't know. To that day, I'm searching for this man.

He was on the run, yeah. And so I took him to the pet store and they said, we don't have enough money for all these things. And so then I was like, okay, I can either sell these off individually or this is an enterprise. Yeah. And so then I started breeding bull by the lines. Either I can sell these snakes.

individually or of course this isn't in our practice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you start breeding them. So I started breeding, yeah. And then what do you do with all? You sell them all? You sell off the babies then? You sell off the babies. I did mostly stud service, which is I had expensive

males and then I would give the males to people with females and then they would raise the or they would have the babies go through the gestation period you know, actually then have the eggs and then I would get a percentage of what you sell.

What percent? Like 12. It's something very small if I'm just providing the mail because they're doing everything. Yeah. So anything from like, well, depending on what my relationship is with a person, if I'm like just trying to get in with this person, it would be really low. Yeah. But if it's someone that I like a rapport with, then it would be up to like 30.

Yeah. Wow. Yeah, it was. How much money were we talking? How much does a snake go for? You can tell. I mean, like, it's crazy. There was some, I was living.

I did it during my gap year. I took a gap year. And then... This is when you dropped out of... You were at Barnard? Yes. Yeah. And then went up there, did a year there,

and then ended up... I lived off campus in like an apartment off just snake money in one bedroom. Okay. I have so many questions. Sorry, gap year was between high school and Barnard. Yes. Yes.

So we took a gap year. This is when you start breeding the snakes. Yes. And you get enough snake money to go and live... off campus. At the time, I wanted to live on campus at first. Then I was living on campus and I was like, this is no one. I just felt so, I wasn't into it. And so then, what did you feel? What did you feel? I think I felt my high school experience was really particular and I went to like this school where

you kind of like lived on a ranch and this is another, like, there's a lot of lower. I lived on a ranch and take care of a horse and you had like so much responsibility and like you were doing laundry you were just like living on your own very much and so then I went to college and I was like oh I'm already an adult and you guys are like how do I do laundry and I was just

so not there you had already taken care of the horse exactly exactly it's like none of these girls have taken care of a horse I gotta get the fuck out of here truly yeah I feel that I understand I mean I've not gone through that but I can imagine yeah I just felt older and I and also

like no one was partying and they were like really there was like no one was you know hanging out in the dorms in that way and I think it was because the RAs were really on top of shit and and then also I got in a lot of trouble for various things so it was so the snakes I did have the snakes in the dorm so there were the snakes in the dorm and then there was also this time that I tried to rue my own beer and because I was like you didn't want to get a fake ID right I could not figure out how to get one of these things. It was so hard to get a fake ID. Did you have this experience?

I wasn't trying to get a fake. I wasn't cool. Really? Yeah. You didn't want to, were you like not? Did you not drink in college? I just don't. Well, no, I went to a state school in Missouri, so getting alcohol was not an issue.

You didn't need any kind of identification to get alcohol. We got alcohol when I was like 14. It was no problem. People's parents were happy to give it to us. but I no I just have never been interested in bars or like truly when my friends started going to like the college town bars

I went to the first couple times out of curiosity and I just walked in and I felt like a 65 year old queen like I was just like oh it's loud I hated it and I still do it's just not my it's not my scene I hate it yeah I but you wanted a fake ID to go to it

at the now I hate it as an adult I hate it and in a way I think I had that experience in college where I just felt, I felt like, what are we doing here? But also I did want a party and I couldn't get a fake ID. So I tried to brew my own beer and I was like, this will be great, I'll sell it.

And then... I love your entrepreneurial minds. Every day, it seems like at least during this period of life, every day you were waking up and going, I need to capitalize. I do think I've always been kind of like hustlery. I don't know, for whatever reason. And then I got,

caught with the, with the beer. And then it was clear that that was, I had to, like, write a letter to an R.A. And I was like, this is going to be a whole thing. Write a letter to the R.A. Right. Like, I got caught and I had to write, like, an apology letter. See, my shit with authority, I would have killed somebody. I'm not going to write a letter to an R.A.

You can kick me out before I do that. That's crazy. It was so, like, it had to be really patronizing, you know. Write a letter to my peer who, like, signed up to be a part of the SS. Like, no. No, I'm not writing a letter to my peer who's like a dorm police. That's crazy. All because you brewed some beer?

Exactly. God, that's stupid. That's how I felt at the time. And then I was like, okay, I'm out of here. Yeah. And then I got an apartment. You got an apartment so you could breed the snakes. Yeah.

Now, how much are we selling a snake for? You could sell a snake for like anywhere between, I mean, within one clutch, depending on how you've like, do you remember in biology class, punnet squares? Oh, I know of them, yeah. Yes. Top right, you're going to have red hair or whatever the fuck. Exactly. Yeah.

And you were like, when are I ever going to use this? Yeah. Snake breeding. It's true. Yeah. True. And so you're like, you do your punnet squares to make sure that, okay, how am I going to make the most out of this clutch? And so you might saw a snake for like 50 and then you could saw a snake for like $12,000.

Shut your goddamn mouth. Have you sold a snake for $12,000? $1,000. Wally! Wow. I know. What was so special about it? It had this, it had two jeans that were really, like, prized.

One. It was silly? It was silly and adventurous. I'll take it for 12,000. Goofy little jeans. It was, it was, it's called Exanthic. It's like this gene that is, high black and white is what it looks like almost like a checkered board a little bit like teeny tiny

checkerboards it's skin does it's skin does it this is all in the skin okay got you yeah oh that's what this is all about all about the skin okay okay okay i didn't know if it was like this one slithers faster than the others it's all about appearances all about appearances i was briefly in a snake group and i learned some of this what yo yeah did you not know this no well this is a joke i used to do but the the i basically i used to when i started comedy in chicago i would join you any Facebook group I could get my hands on. Oh yeah, they're big on the Facebook groups. Oh, yeah.

I was just trying to see how people lived. I was in like a truck driver's group in Tulsa. Whoa. I would, it started in college, actually. I would join other colleges, like class of 2021 groups or whatever. And I would, I guess the time it was like class of 2018, but I would join their groups and just like start posting. I'd like Google facts about their college. And I'd like, who's hanging out at the Johnson Squad?

Johnson Quad today. And I would just see what people said. I was unwell, and I joined a snake owner's group, and I learned that there was, originally I joined it, it was called snake owners. And then there was another group called snake owners, parentheses, nice people only. Because the first snake owner's group,

there was a lot of bullying of the snakes. It's like, if you're in a snake group, you have to be so fastidious about your, you're, I don't know what fastidious. That just came out of me. Festidious? No, you're right. Is that right?

Like, yeah, like concentrated, like focused. Okay, fastidious about your husbandry, because if you post a photo and you're like, what's wrong with my snake? And they're like, the humidity doesn't, this tank doesn't look like I could hold humidity or like, why do you have Aspen instead of cedar wood chippings? Like, they're so aggressive. They're so mean. The people I saw, they were not going after the environs.

They were going after the appearances. They were saying your snake is fat. He has bad markings. He's ugly. Like, they were being mean. They were being like, this snake is. ugly. And then in a new group, they were like, hey, like, only tell me if my snake has cancer or something. Like, I don't want you to call him ugly. Like, people are getting really defensive of

their snake. That is awesome. And I see that too. I mean, like, people, I feel like they're so, I mean, I don't know about ugly, but they're so, like, if your snake is obese or too skinny or has dry skin, they hate eczema in the snake community. Yeah. It's like, they really get out. How do you have to do lotion your snake? I give him baths. Oh, God. Oh, God, I'm so sorry. It's not, it's, I just am very, that makes me really, really, really, really. I do not hate snakes. You can hate, it's okay. I really don't. I don't ever want to touch or see one. Yeah, I get it. I get it. But I don't hate them. And I love your hobby. Yeah, if I touched or saw one, it. It just makes me really the idea of like, when you give them a bath, how do you do it? Like, show me on the mic,

I just, I, okay, well, I get a big piece of Tupperware. No, it's not. I don't, I don't, I just... You just put him in there. I just put him in there. And then I put a lid on and then his slithering and tried to getting out, that's his own bath. So it's really just...

That's worse. Although sometimes, sometimes if they have a bad shed, you'll put this thing called sheddies on them. And it's like a little lotion and you just kind of... Yeah, it's, I guess, tough for you. That is really like...

If I had to watch you do that with lotion on a snake, I'd be like, you're a super villain. That'd be really scared for me watch, but I love, I'm interested. So 12,000 Xanthi, Xanthic, makes them black and white checkers. And also I'd have scaleless, like, scaleless is like a big. Scaleless.

Is that really hard to get it? It's, yeah, well, because you have to breed for it because you're constantly breeding snakes with less and less scales with snakes and less and less. So if you get like a totally scaleless, Zizanthus. Exanth. Exanth. Exanth. Exanth.

Exanth. You get a totally scaleless exanthic snake. Sorry, there's like World War III going on in the hallway. There's something wrong with people in this building. You get a totally scaleless snake with exanthic. A little markings. Markings.

He's going for 12,000. Yeah, it's like so specific on who the parents are and like what the recessive genes are. But you can get, I mean, like even like super rare like $30,000 a snake. I've never sold a snake for that amount of money. No, but you've sold for 12. Is that the most you ever sold a snake for? 12. That's a lot.

And I'm not even sure I should have sold it for 12 but because I wasn't, well, I don't know. He's not going to watch this. I don't know. I'm not entirely sure what the genes of the grandparents were

and but I ultimately it was like I just gave my snake over to the guy and yeah. You think you should have charged more? I think I should charge glass. That's not your problem though. You as the snake proprietor

if a guy's willing to pay 12 for the snake you give him the snake for 12. I mean it's not like you ripped him off because it's not like a car. like if he was like a single parent you sold him a minivan that you're like the brakes don't work you know what i mean that would be fucked up but like the snake it's like if you've got 12 000 for the snake do you know what he did in life like what does he do as a job all these people it's such a so i go to these reptile conventions yeah which is where you sell a lot of these sticks it's where rose burn recently said her oh be kind of ballet yes he couldn't be at the thing because he was at a reptile convention he's at repticon yeah that's what it's called it's called repticon yeah um and

you go and it's the crazy honestly if this group of people worked hard enough they could solve a lot of cultural differences because it's some of the most conservative just like bearded tattoo maga guys but then also like it's a lot of people of color it's a lot of people in the hood it's like it's really everyone is there it's but also it's like billionaires that just don't know what to do with their money it's the most bizarre and it's all these like tough guys trying to prove their masculinity by being like look at my little pet lizard it's crazy this is the furry community as well if the furry community and the reptile loving community could get together and get organized they could do because most furries are like dentists and shit whoa really

being a furry is very expensive I I I would imagine because they have all of that like mascot costume I'm like this thing has to cost a lot of money and you know what's a lot of I thought the whole point I slept with a furry once. I thought the whole point... What? He wasn't in costume. He was human. But we did it human mode, but he...

I think he... I think there's the thing, though, I learned from him. He's a great guy. I just saw him recently, actually. We're friends now. But he... Whoa. Is he okay with...

Does he mind you talk? Well, I guess you don't identify him. I don't know. I've not asked him because if I were going to reveal intimate things, I would ask. Yeah. What I learned is a lot of people in the furry community, I always assume that the whole...

whole point was to fuck in the costume. I'm like, you become the wolf to fuck as the wolf. But not the case. You become the wolf to fuck as the man. Well, sometimes they won't fucking the costume a lot because they're so expensive, you can't risk coming on it or mat the fur. You don't want to mat the fur. No.

Yeah, because you can't get that stuff out of the fur. So you don't want to mat the fur, so they won't. You don't want to mat the fur. Yeah, they'll be like, yes, I cosplay as a, yes, I'm a hawk, but I do. I will not fuck you as the hawk. But are they when they fuck you? are they mentally the hawk?

You know, it's a question that I would love to ask. Maybe I should get a furry on. That would actually be really interesting. Let's make a note, James. I think it would be interesting to talk with a furry because I don't know if mentally they're the hawk. I think part of it is like maybe they,

maybe it's like foreplay. Like they get off on walking around the conventions as the hawk. And then they go, and I think some of them do fucking the costumes. Some of them have costumes that are designed for fucking, I believe. Like it's just a head and some shoulder piece. And then the rest is like they wear like a jock strap. Like a centaur.

No. Totally. Reverse centaur. Reverse centaur. Yeah. Human hole and animal head. And I think that's beautiful. But what I'm saying is the furry community and the reptile community, it sounds very similar

where it's like people with a lot of disposable income that don't, they don't really care anything else about you, I'm feeling. Yes. Furries might be a little more like lefty, I think, like politically lefty on purpose. But the point is, I think these two communities could really change the world. And I don't think I want them to, but they could. I think I like I didn't mean to if I sounded like I was shitting on furries I feel like I feel like we need more things like this

I was thinking of my when I was thinking of my so true I was like one of them could be but I don't think this is it but yeah burn this one now we'll get to the real one later I feel like we need more hobbies I feel like people need more hobbies it's such like it I feel this with fly fishing too where it brings all these different people together because I love to fly fish and I'm always out with like some I just went out in Tennessee with a guy that I don't know his politics

I definitely don't think they were close to mine Based on the day we had I'm just thinking probably not voting the same Yeah But I think that we could find Common Ground in a way where he would walk away Being like yeah I think maybe We don't build a wall

Maybe you know I just met a delightful Mexican You know I don't know That's really beautiful. I love that. I hope that that's true. Are you, what are your hobby, you bicycle, do you have any hobbies that are like?

Being anti-immigration. Yeah. I'm helping out on the wall a lot, which, uh, my hobby. Yeah, I like, I like, I like to bike. I like to read. I like to go to museums. I'm trying to think if I have other hobbies. I'm learning guitar.

I'm trying to get better at Spanish. My Spanish is humiliatingly bad. Um, but I were taking a lesson. Yeah, I have. I was taking lessons for a while, but I wasn't practicing because I was so busy. I was trying to take lessons last year, and I was so busy last year that, like, I wasn't doing the work I needed to do outside of class. So it was mostly my poor sweet teacher just being a little frustrated with me. But I'm trying now.

I'm like back at it. It's so hard to practice Spanish. So that one maybe is where I really relate to, I'm, and although maybe this more has to do with my identity politics or not. Is that the right use of identity politics? I don't know. I liked it regardless. Thank you. Yeah.

That it's so hard for me to. be bad at Spanish out in the wild where it's so shameful and I'm like I feel like I should, is that how you feel when you're, when you're upset that you're bad at something where you're like, I feel like I should be better at this? Yes. And also, I think if I'm being 100% honest with myself, it's that I'm used to being good at things. And I, but I think I've also self-sorted to only spend my time on things I'm good at. And so it has like reinforced a narrative to me that it's like, I'm good at when I first try

them. And it's like, no, you have self-selected things that you would be good at to avoid failing. And I only ever really let myself fail at comedy. And it was like one of the most difficult and rewarding things I've ever done. But I'm, I want to, like, I want to get rid of this unhelpful narrative I have that I'm good at things. It's a totally useless narrative. It doesn't matter. It's not interesting. I just want to, I want to be somebody who tries. I think that's so much cooler. Growth mindset. What about you? Do you feel, what is your, um, do you feel that you're good at things inherently or do you have to work really hard? No, I definitely don't think.

I'm, I think I'm, maybe I'm actually, hmm, maybe I, no, I don't think I'm good at things. Yeah, it's true. I don't think I'm good at things. Are you competitive? Yes. I feel, I'm really not competitive and I've always attributed it to the fact that I'm not good at things. And I'm like, well, if I thought I could win the race, maybe I would be competitive.

But I've always been not super athletic, genuinely unintuitive. which is why comedy I do think works so well. I like these niche things where I'm like, okay, I'm good at reading books, I'm good at, which makes me good at like fly fishing or knowing about snakes or weird niche hobbies

or, you know, I'm in a way good at being unintuitive, which then I can turn into comedy. So in some ways, good at things, but in most ways, most ways,

like remarkably bad at things. Yeah. Like, figuring out how to even, I remember being in an office, and everyone would kind of just watch me to figure out, to watch, like, what is she going to do with the fax machine? And then it was just like,

I was always finding out new ways in which I was doing things wrong. Like, even in a writer's room one time I stepped in a puddle, and so I took my shoe off, and then I walked around all the day with only one shoe on, and everyone was like, what are you doing? And I was like, well, what do you want me to, you want me to wear the dirty shoes? I clean the shoes. Yeah. And I was like, okay. I don't know. Like little things where it just felt like I've always done things a little off.

Yeah, but you're curious. But I am curious. You're very curious. It's one of my favorite qualities a person can have. I love that about you. It's something I identified about you very like the first time I met you. Wow. I was like I think Wally's curious. I think it's a cool. I think it's one of the most important things that a person can be in life. It's like so it just makes life so much more interesting to be curious about things and people. I have this crazy No, it's not crazy Do you feel like Every No No I was about to say

I was about to say I feel like Man I wish men were more curious Straight men Okay Oh 1,000% It's like our biggest problem And then I was like

I don't know if I can gender it And then I was like Well then maybe I shouldn't say it But so that's the journey you just saw me go on. No, I think so many of the times when we talk about like things that could be better in society, I think we, it's just removing the venom and the demonizing. Like, look, a lot of straight men are not very curious.

We know this. The straight men that I have in my life that I love are curious people. And they, when they interact with other straight men, they find the same thing. That they're like, these guys are like, kind of boring. And the thing is, it doesn't mean that you're evil. It just means that you were socialized in a society that has always prioritized your interests over everything. And so you've never had to be curious the way that people with marginalized identities have. Doesn't make you a bad person. Doesn't mean you're evil. It's just a fact about

you that you, a lot of these guys are uncurious and they could fix it. It's the same thing with like, I get annoyed when people use, like when people are like, ugh, that's such a, like, people will be like, oh, that's such a privilege. They'll be like, oh, that's so privileged. I'm like, yeah, some people have privileges. Like I don't, sometimes facts are not indictments. Like, when you go like, oh, that's such a white thing to say, it's like, well, yeah, that's a white person. Like these are not necessarily inherently bad things. Now sometimes they verge into being not just a white person thing to say, but also racist. And then that's when it becomes like a problem that needs to be fixed. But a lot of times like facts are just not indictments. Like things can just

be true and you can go like, oh, there's nothing inherently wrong with that. And if I want to fix it or change it, I can. You know? Yeah. But a lot of straight men are incurious and I don't think that it makes them evil. But I think that their lives and the lives of people around them and ultimately then the world would be better if they would pursue some curiosity in their lives. You know what I mean? That was awesome. Me rambling and you happy to listen to it. That was awesome.

I was like, you should run for something. That was great. But don't you feel? I just feel like removing the part where people are in trouble for it is like, you're in trouble. It's a fact that you're being kind of incurious to be cool if you weren't. Yeah. And then we shame it and then they reject it.

and then so then they can't accept this fact about themselves. Yeah. Also, it is hard. Like, I treat it. I think it would be helpful if we treated the way that when we talk about someone that's in a non-dominant group, like when we talk about being socialized as a woman in America,

we go, like when we think about like our moms, for example, like some of the things my mom does frustrate me to my core. I love her to death. I think she's a wonderful human being. And oftentimes, or my grandma,

I'll go, you know, she is a woman who was socialized in the 70s. And that must have been, so fucking hard. The way that you give grace for that, I think we can also do that for people, we don't have to, no one has a responsibility to, but we can also do that for people in dominant groups of like, you can have grace for someone who was socialized from a place of power as well and be like, oh, the reason this guy is uncurious is because he's never had to take interest in someone

else. And you can still hold accountable and be like, that's not an energy I want to be around. it needs to change, but also like understanding it and not making it so evil and giving a little bit of credit to the larger forces that were at play. Do you know what I mean? Yes, no, absolutely. It makes everyone untents their asshole a little bit. Yeah. And then it makes fixing things a little bit easier.

Mm-hmm. You know, that's how I feel. That was, I agree. I can't imagine having anything more insightful to say. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. This episode is sponsored by our friends at Truffroom. there's hundreds, if not thousands of options when you're looking for an exciting new snack to try. True fruit is making that choice easier than ever. I actually really love eating these.

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So you show up more often on search engines and bring in more of your ideal customers. Head to Squarespace.com slash Showtrue for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code so true to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Thank you, Squarespace. That is so funny. I want to know about Horse High School. Horse High School. I'm like, well, if I had anything to say, it would just be, yeah, that.

But so, okay, horse high school. No, well, it's not your fault. When I monologue for 15 minutes, it's not necessarily that you're going to have something to add to it. That's a place where I could talk less than let you talk. No, no, I think you should say more of those things. I think you should say them to groups of people. I don't know. Caleb, you should get in front of groups of people sometimes.

I truly think you should be in politics. Like 100%. Do you want that for me? Well, fuck. Now I'm, see, there you go. Yes. But I want that for us.

And I think you could handle it. So maybe I do. I don't know. Maybe I do. I don't think I would be a particularly good politics. No, that's not true. I would be a very good politician. I don't think I'm the type of person we need in politics.

I think I'm self-involved. I think I love attention. I think I would much rather see someone more selfless than me be in elected office. But I don't know that I know a lot of those people that are as good at speaking as what you just said. Well, this is our big issue. The people who do actually important work don't want to do that because it's a psychotic. The level of love you have to have for attention to do this. for most of us. I don't know if you identify with that, but I think most people who do this

love attention at a level that makes them bad public servants. Yeah. I don't think I don't think that that's, I think part of the problem that we have is that we elect public servants based on their ability to speak. For sure. Yeah, that's true. This is not a, but you were also, you had good ideas too. But so, and that too. Yes. Thank you. I steal those from smarter people who do more important jobs. But that's, those people should be, you know, like, but anyway. Do you think he love attention? It's a really interesting thing because I do on some level. Like I like, I really like that I like when people come to shows.

I like getting attention for the right reasons. When I work really hard on a joke and it works, I do love that. And I wouldn't want someone else to deliver it. When I'm writing a script and I imagine someone else getting to say a great line that I wrote, I get jealous. Like, I do like to perform and get attention. I don't necessarily like attention in the full scope and breadth that I have it now in my life. I don't necessarily want to have the feeling that I do have now that every time I walk into

public, I'm like interacting with somebody who knows who I am. Yeah. That freaks me out a little bit, but it's part of the job. So I feel, I feel at peace with that level of attention and I try to seek more of the kind that I like. Do you know what I mean? Yes. Do you like attention? I think I'm similar. I definitely like attention for my, anything I consider my art. in my craft, but I hate attention everywhere else, even in like, even in, I mean, actually, this is the first podcast I've ever done. Did I tell you that? No.

This is the first podcast you've ever done? I've ever done, yes. You didn't get forced into one during overcompensating press? I said no to things. That's really good. Oh, no, I did a small, I went on and told a short story on Benny and they had the whole cast do ride. Yeah.

But beyond that, no. because theoretically this is the I don't like necessarily attention for my personhood like if I'm in a group conversation I do not want to be center of the group conversation I want to observe the group conversation sometimes that's why I like podcasts like listen and write is I'm like okay great I get to be with my friends but not have to speak this is awesome yeah you know but attention yeah outside of outside of the things that I curate is I think quite terrifying. Then why do you do this? Why do comedy? Why did you get into all this? Well, I think that is, I consider my art or my craft. Right.

Yes. So that totally lines up what you're saying, that that's the thing you, yeah, got you, got you, got you, got you, got you, got you. Which is kind of, I don't know, like, I guess maniacal to only want to be understood in the exact way that you want to be understood because that's what it is in a way. But that's just the situation. Yeah. Yeah.

Why, why no podcasts until this one and why this one? Well, this one because I listen to you and you're a joy. And. Clip it. But, I mean, theoretically, a podcast is my worst nightmare. It's like a conversation one-on-one that lives in perpetuity. I mean, that's horrifying. Am I, I feel like I'm constantly having to battle saying something that is the right thing.

Like, I'm constantly having, my first instinct is to say the thing that makes the conversation go smoother, which is not always the true thing or the right thing, but it's like the socially anxious answer. And so then I have to battle that. And then also my views are ever evolving. So it's like, oh, a snapshot of where I was on this specific day. I don't know. It's like it's a bold thing to do, you know? It's going to exit the context.

Like this, this, like, I've learned for sure doing this that it will eventually exit the context, which means that in 10 years, I certainly will regret many things I've said on this show. And that's okay. Like, I think that's part of our, that's part of our work that we're going to have to do as, like, a culture is, like, letting each other grow and evolve. But this podcast, it's so funny because. things that were perfectly acceptable in the context of the moment and went fine and did great and everyone enjoyed it and understood it.

Seven months later or get picked up by some outside audience or some group that isn't involved in the joke or whatever, some niche of some particular corner of the world. And people get really upset about it. And I think really the, yeah, the trick is to just be like, that's fine. I don't care. You're allowed to be upset. I'm allowed to say what I said. You're allowed to be upset.

And ultimately, we all wake up tomorrow when life goes on. Yeah. It's like whatever. Yeah, I mean, it is, for sure is scary and annoying. But that's really interesting. I'm surprised that you, during the press cycle, at least for overcommonstating, got out of doing all those. It feels like they really, I say no to almost everything. And even I get like hounded about that shit.

It's really, they really want you to do it. When I think I give these people run for their money sometimes, when I say no, I'm like, no. This is not happening. Or I'll do things that they're like, why are you doing this? or I don't know. I feel like I don't have a ton of strategy when it comes to this, which sounds like such like,

I'm such a normal girl thing to say. But you know what I mean? I just, because when I'm uncomfortable, bad things happen. It's not ideal for anyone. Yeah. I'm like,

they keep trying to make me do in person meetings. And I'm like, if I go in person, I will get nervous and I'm not going to do good work. I'll say crazy things. I'll say crazy things. I will ruin all of our careers.

Do not send me in there. Yeah. Yeah, I did a meeting recently. And then they sent my agent a note and they were like, yeah, we love the story about how like while I got sober. And I was like, and they were like, what did you tell? We don't even know this story. And it's just like I have no, there's no ability to think, you know, it's just whatever. How do I navigate this conversation while still talking?

It's like the path of least resistance. Path of least resistance is exactly my social. Yeah. My social strategy. That makes sense. It's not easy. It's like a really, I think we don't give enough credit to how. hard it is to socialize. There are so many things. I've really reflected on this a lot in the last

couple of years because there's a, um, I keep going back and forth about how I want to, there's a kid in my life that I love who is a member of my family. And I'm always like, do I say the relationship? Because someday he'll watch, you know, but he is, uh, on the autism spectrum. And I've known many people with autism in my life, uh, but specifically like helping a kid that you love through it and trying to give them the right answers. So much of, uh, uh, adult. life and society is like teeny tiny little indescribable things that you're just supposed to know and I feel so frustrated because I know them and he doesn't and I don't know how to I want to give him like I want to help him with the gift of understanding like I'm like yeah when someone turns their

face in that way I know with their words they're saying that they whatever but it's this tiny little and you can't you almost can't teach it and so I don't think we give enough credit to how fucking like crazy difficult and nuanced it is to just move through the word. politely. Truly. Most of my beginning stand-up was my, like, I would catalog those tiny things of, like, how someone looked at you or, like, one, I used to really struggle with his people, sometimes when they're trying to bond with you or express intimacy, the laugh and look at you,

you know, when you're like, ha-ha-ha, you know what I mean? What do you mean, the laugh and look at you? Like, when you're laughing at something, let's say you're watching stand-up, you're laughing, and you look at your buddy and you're like, ha ha ha, ha. And I really struggled with that one because people would laugh and look at me and I'd be like, ha, ha, ha, or like, because it's just so, it's so aggressive. Ha ha, I don't know. Well, I can't do it. It feels like, yeah, no, it's like, it's like you're laughing at something that you're both experiencing, but they turn to you to be, it's, but that's another one of those small things where it's like, why are we doing that? Yes. It's like, because I want to see if you're laughing and show you that I'm laughing and I, and there's an intimacy of sharing the moment via eye contact. There's like 15 things you're communicating when you do that and no one thinks a thing about it.

And then, yeah, and then you have an autistic child in your life and you're like, oh, yeah, sorry, buddy. It's going to be rough. You're going to have a hard time understanding this. Laugh and make eye contact. Yeah. Or another one that I still think about is how sometimes when I'm out, it seems like in order to jumpstart having fun, you need to announce that you're having fun before you're actually having fun. Do you know this? Give me an example.

Like you'll be dancing and everyone has to. to look like they're having a good time before they're having a good time. Like before they're getting drunk enough. You know, I used to feel this one I used to drink is that before everyone was drunk, we'd be dancing and everyone would know it hadn't hit yet, but you just have to kind of dance around and be like,

yeah, and like look into space a little bit. Do you know what I mean? Do you have that experience? Or maybe I'm just not having a good time and I feel the need to announce it. I don't know. I feel like what you're saying is that you're not drunk enough to be having fun yet,

you feel the need to perform it? Yes. I feel like you need to perform enjoyment to signal to other people. We're all enjoying it. And then I feel like I'm just really announcing how autistic I am in this. No, I'm really listening. I'm off the end. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Where it's like you need to look like you're having fun in order for everyone else to feel comfortable looking like they're having fun. Right. Like, yeah, I understand what you mean. I think the my block with it is my stuff about alcohol like but the specifically the idea that like you need to look

like you're having fun when you're dancing or like yes I sometimes will get in my head and I'm sure this is what alcohol helps people with I don't drink it a lot I'm planning to drink a lot of it this weekend because it's my birthday are you coming? Wait no what? It's my birthday party this weekend?

What's your birthday party this? You don't know this? This is my biggest fear dude I keep thinking I'm being so good about this. Are you free Saturday night? Yes. You're in New York? No, I'm not. not, I have my family's white elephant party. Oh, wait, when, where? In New York. In New Jersey.

You can come late. The party goes until late. Okay. I'm going to send you the information. Okay, send me the information. But yes, I feel, I feel sometimes like when I'm not in a good headspace, I feel that I'll start to think a lot about how my body is moving and whether people are thinking that I'm having fun. And I can get, I will say I'm, I luckily can get out of that really quickly, but it can ruin a vibe for sure. That's, yeah, exactly. how I'm, what I'm thinking about. Are you sober? Yes.

Okay. Yeah. Good. I never had like an issue with, an extreme issue with alcohol, but I just find my life is so much better. Yeah. Without it. You didn't have an issue with alcohol. I had, I not, I didn't issue with hangovers.

Ah. My hangovers, I was a vicious woman. I would like get up in the morning and be like, you're hard to love to my partner. Like I would. just like not a nice lady. That is so fucking funny. It was bad. But I wouldn't drink a lot and,

but it would take so little alcohol for me to be grumpy the next day. Yeah. And so then that continued. And then I, the first time I ever blacked out, I was like, this has to be the last time I ever drink. It was so bad.

I like, I have this friend. She's this incredible like practice that she does where every five years she, well, she wanted, she was sad because she was like, this is the last time we'll have all these people together. And he was like, well, what if every, yeah, I guess so. Fuck, man, yeah, I guess so. Unless it's a funeral, which she said. And so her husband, they're just this awesome couple. He was like, every five years, let's have a get together.

And so they have like a mini wedding without the reception, about the ceremony. And everyone gets together and they were married on New Year's. So every New Year's, they get together and party, and it was at this event and I got so blacked out that I don't really know, oh yeah, no, I do know I blacked out, then I blacked back in and I was at...

I briefly blacked out, and then I blacked back in. And I was at the, they had a guy like shredding hams, like at this big prosciutto leg and he was putting down prosciutto. and I would pick the prosciutto up as he put it down so no one else can get it. And then I blacked out again,

and then I blacked back in and I was telling him about the Beatles and still at the ham station, blacked out, blacked in. And I was just going around. Blacking in is so funny. I blacked out, blacked in. I'm at the ham.

It's crazy when you do that. You just have these glimpses and I was going around and I was singing at people like blackbirds singing in the dead. I take these broken wings and learn to fly. And then you're out again. Yeah.

And then I blacked back in. And I was at, we were, so this is also bananas. She's had this party at this castle in Portugal. Yeah. And we're at this castle, this ancient castle in Portugal. And I was in front of like a 1200 AD Virgil book. Yeah. Where you're supposed to hold it with white,

gloves and I was just getting my fingerprints all over the virgin. You destroyed an ancient arch. Okay. And then I woke up the next morning. So then the next morning was tough. I guess in my sleep or in my drunken stupor, I had taken all the sheets off the bed. I had taken the mattress protector off the bed. Yeah.

I had peed on the bed. Yeah. I had vomited on the bed. Yeah. I also was wearing self-tanner, but I didn't know I was supposed to wash it off. So I was pumpkin orange. Yeah. And I had rolled around in the piss and gotten the pumpkin orange and the piss all over the mattress.

Yeah. And then I had gone downstairs. I don't know what I was wearing downstairs. I had thrown up in the fountain on the ancient art. Yeah. On near the Virgil enough for the splatter to get on the Virgil. Yeah. And so I was like, I don't think I should drink again.

It was really bad. So, just so we're clear, when I asked if you had an issue with alcohol and you answered no confidently, this is going to go ahead and be one of the most clear cases of having an issue with alcohol. That is a really wild tale. And ultimately, by the way, everyone's fine. Everyone's fine. But wow, that's crazy. But I have no other tales like that. I have, it was the only time, I was like, I'm going to get really drunk tonight.

I'm going to keep up with my friends and it's going to be awesome because I'm not. never that girl. And it's like, oh, this is why I should never be that girl. You have no other tales like that. I have, I'm like, do I have another tail like that? I don't think I've, I've never blacked out before. Yeah. I have a problem with food because when you were describing grabbing the ham fresh off the thing, I was so jealous. I was like thrilled. I was like, God, that sounds amazing. He's slicing the ham straight into my hand and I'm just going to mouth with it. I like that. Do you black out with food? No, I'm blacked in when I'm eating.

I never feel more awake. No, no, no. I used to, I had a bad binge eating problem when I was in my early 20s. I was binge eating like crazy. I mean, I was so like, but I was depressed as I was the most depressed man alive. I could have won awards if we had a competition. I just was so, I was so depressed, but it was complicated because I was also having fun. Like, I don't know.

I still, I still would have a good time. I just, I didn't realize how depressed I was. I don't think the whole time it was happening. Benjeeing like crazy. Putting away some crazy stuff. Was it like a crazy high lows situation? What do you mean? I don't know.

I feel like... Was I like having manic... No, not like sorry, manic highs lows, but just like sometimes I feel like the times in which I can point to having the most amount of... Oh, maybe I'm... Maybe actually I have the mental disorder.

Not that I was saying you had the mental disorder, but that's fine. If I point to the times in which I had was the most depressed, I also had the splurts. I also had these splurts of the most highs, not like manic highs, but like just, I don't know, I feel like if I point to my 20s, it looks a little bit. Oh, this is a podcast, I guess high oscillations. Yeah, up and down, up and down.

Then now it's like I have less oscillations, but also maybe I'm medicated now. There was a lot to impact on what I just said. Yeah. You're saying that the highs are gone, but so were the dips. But the lows, yeah. Yeah, that's what I fear. I, for me, Caleb, I, no, I think I. Are you unmedicated?

I'm unmedicated. Oh, wow. Yeah. Good for you, man. Yeah. There's a little badge on my arm. I'm one of the last ones. I am unmedicated.

Everything's, I'm well, but, yeah, I think, yeah, the depression in college was crazy, the binge eating. And I was depressed in a way where, like, I would eat something psycho. Like, I would have, like, a fucking two liter of Mountain Dew, a whole pizza and, like, three candy bars. And then I'd get in my bed sick. and then I was so, you know, because you should get in bed after that.

They always say, take down 8,000 calories and then go ahead and get on your back as quick as you can. And then I was so sad and lonely. I would like beg a friend to come sit in bed with me so I didn't have to be alone.

And a couple people would. I mean, like people had shit going on, but people would, which was really sweet. Boy, rough, rough area of life. I wonder, college was, I think, if I look back my most depressed time. Yeah. But you were running a fucking business.

You were selling the hell out of those snakes. I was. Yeah, I was. And then when I dropped out, it was awesome. So really, and I dropped out for stand-up and I got to do that. So I guess, but my one year, that's me trying to relate. That one year was tough. I did not like college.

I tried to drop out and my mom begged me not to so I didn't. But I tried because I came to New York. I worked at Columbia. I did a summer internship at Columbia for two summers. And after the second summer, during the second summer, I called my mom and I was like, I'm not coming back to school. I'm going to find an apartment. There's a job at the college that I think I can get. I'm going to move to New York.

And I'm going to try to do like comedy and theater and stuff. And she was like, please God, do not do that. Finish your fucking degree. And I was like, no, I really can't. I got to stay in New York. I don't want to come back because I was hating being in Southern Missouri at that time. And I was like, I just can't do it anymore. I got to get the fuck out of there.

and yeah she begged and she never begged me to do anything my mom always let me do whatever i wanted and this is the first time she ever begged me to do anything wow and so i went back and finished school i'm so glad i did she's was so right but yeah i almost i almost dropped out i really want to go back to college yeah i want to study i applied after um season one but now we got to go to season two but i want to study i think i would love to study english or history i would love more context for some I feel like now I have the tools to write. And you got some crazy stuff going on next door. What the fuck they're doing?

Throwing things. Anyway. I would, I don't know. I'd love more just like, I feel like I have, I can write now. And now I would love just to be able to be more informed as I, you know, write and say things. Yeah. English or history would be so fun. Some of my favorite classes in college were history classes.

I feel like now. now I feel like oh if I went back I'd ace that but maybe that's maybe that's hubris maybe I don't know I think it would be so hard yeah we were not kind to non-traditional students when I was there like a 34 year old with a roly backpack we were like you're al-Qaeda like we were so mean for no reason not to their face but we were just like oh god john's got a remark you know what I mean like we we hated it do you know what weren't you guys like that we just were so judgmental and weird I'm in improv 101 right now which is a wild experience.

But I noticed that people aren't as nice to the older students as well. And so I'm like, damn, dude, this is, they're just trying to have a good time. Had you ever trained in improv before this? No. No. Oh, cool. No. And I got to keep up with homes.

Yeah. Trying to keep up with homes in improv is, it's a unique skill. Impossible. It's a horrific endeavor. It feels like Holmes is connected. You know when people talk about, they talk about this with basketball players too or something, or football,

I don't know, whatever, where it's like someone has some sort of connection to another side or like to a light or like a, I don't know, it's a darkness, yeah. Holmes is connected to a darkness, yeah.

They're connected to something that I'm like, how did, you'll be in a scene with them, you're like, how did you do what? Yeah. And I'm supposed to not break? Yeah.

There's, I mean, it's just unbelievable. They're just in my opinion, like the funniest performer alive, right? Like, I just genuinely do think they're the funniest person that is currently alive and working. And I think what happened is when God made most people, they poured a little bit, they poured like some creativity, they poured like some executive function, you know, they put all kinds of things in there.

And with Holmes, they poured all improv and zero executive function. And so it's like responding to an email for Holmes is like going to war. But thinking of the funniest thing you've ever heard off the top of their head is like just like they just, it's like batting their eyes, you know? It's unbelievable. It's bananas. They're a singular genius. A singular genius. Yeah, it really is true.

And not that I'm trying to be a singular genius, but I would also love to be able to, we would be in scenes and they would start and I would know that I just couldn't keep up and I would panic and I would just look down. lens. Just spiking the cameras. Yeah. I'd be like, okay, or I'd be like, okay, let's end now. I would cut us. You're cutting from within the scene. I'm addicted to that.

I was just so afraid. I don't know how to give you the layup for the, you know, the thing you need to spike the ball. So I would just be like, we have to end. We have to end. Get me out of this scene now. Yeah. Yeah.

That is really hard. And it makes total sense. And I think you're brilliant. You're great in the show. know this. But yeah, that is really difficult. I mean, I have, I love improv and I love doing it on set.

And I, uh, I have been, I've been in the dynamic you're talking about where the other person is like, um, frustrated or just not accustomed to it. And it's, it's, it, that is really tough. Yeah. So. But you're great in the show. Oh. You're phenomenal. Really truly. I know you know that, but are you excited to go back. Thanks. My little,

my little scene in the show. I keep telling Benny to bring me back. I'm like, bring me back. I'll do something fun in season. to. I think he, well, I guess I haven't seen update his grips, but I think that's a plan. That's what they were saying. Yeah. It would be fun. I love to pop in and play. It's like a real joy. I think it's one of the things I want most in my life is to, I don't

desire to be in Benny's role and I don't desire to be in like Rachel Sinnott's role in those shows, like the like crazy mega, like mastermind of the thing. I'm all good on that. It looks horrendous. Like they're both doing it with such grace and like flare. I watch. I,

watched them do it and I'm like I think I'd rather be stabbed to death with tweezers. I just, it looks horrible. But coming in for like three days, killing your thing and then leaving, what a beautiful experience. I've never done that. I want to do that. I want to try doing that. You'd be so fun as a little energy pop on a thing and just getting out of there. Maybe once I do more improv.

Once this improv class happens and once you get season two done, that's what's where it's all waiting. Yeah. You have to tell me so quickly about, we're almost out of time, but tell me about horse high school briefly, please. Okay, horse high school was this high school where you go and every freshman gets a horse and has to take care of the horse. And if they don't take care of the horse, the horse dies. And that's sad for all. And you learn how to like be a cowgirl. Yeah.

I wanted to be a cowgirl when I went to high school. How did you find that? Like how did your parents find this school? It was, I found it. Things, I was trying to get out of the house. type vibe and I was looking for programs that where I could get out of the house and also I did want to be a cow I was like obsessed with all westerns I don't know and this idea that like like this lawless land where you create your own credos I don't know I what was into me um

and I just found it on the internet yeah hell yeah and it was awesome I don't I actually I applied to a ranch program last week. I was like, maybe I'll work at a ranch program. I don't know. I told my manager, and she's like, absolutely not, will you be doing that? Hey, so your career that's going well, we'd like you to do it. Yeah. But being, there were some issues with me and the horse where that sounded like we had some political issues.

No. Horses are just wide, and I have these little legs. And so if the horse is too wide, my legs, they don't wrap around the horse. They just kind of shoot off into the ether. They wear me like a little hat. Yeah, like they're supposed to go like that. Yes. So you're not a million times.

And not that I couldn't, but I was getting knee problems. Yeah. And pretty immediately. And it's like hard work and that too. So did you graduate from horse high school? I did graduate from horse high school. I can do all sorts of stuff. Yeah.

I can lasso. I can shoot a gun off a horse. Yeah. You are a fascinating individual. I'm very jealous of horse high school. Like to have that also that level of like agency at that age, like I wasn't questioning almost anything. I was just going where I was told. That is so cool.

I had this kind of parents where you had to question. Yeah. You better question. Couldn't follow the program. Needed to ask some cues. Yeah. Yeah. Wally, what's so true to you?

What's so true? Oh, wait. Okay. I think what is so true to me is that I think what should be so true to me? I have little ones. I have a big one. Big one. Okay, this is, what was getting at me this morning.

I think we focus way too much on the creator and not what is created. I feel like there's, we spend like too much time. I think about how much we focus on like the casting of a project where there's a lot of, I had this thought when I was hearing about stunt casting in, like another stunt casting, which is what, do you know what stunt cast? Yeah. In, on a Broadway show, where, what's your face? Whitney Leave it from Sexize of College Wives is on Broadway now. And not that all power, whatever. I don't know, man. I don't know how I feel about it. I just feel like if we cared more about the art, we would cast people and things that have a lot of training in the craft.

Yeah, yeah, you're not throwing shade to this individual. You're saying in general, if we would change the cultural, like, focus on, really focus on capitalism is the issue that they're like, this person will sell the most tickets. And it's like, but are they right for the role? Yes. That's, yeah, are they right for the role as a question that almost never gets asked? And I'm feeling it more and more as awesome as it is. And I mean, I guess I am a benefit of like someone that was started in one field and then got to hop over to another. I do feel like we are not asking that question enough.

And it's just sort of like, who is the most followers that can bring eyes to this movie or who can, you know. And it is, I'm like, I feel like we're losing sight of craft. And a lot of people that do jump from thing to thing with like a follower base do have experience in craft. And, you know, but I don't know. That's been. This is one of my biggest frustrations of getting my movie made last year. was that the years that we were trying to get it made, every actress that would come up,

there would be this incredible actress who doesn't have a huge internet following, but has worked for decades, and she's amazing, and we all know she's talented. Yeah. Everybody loves her and everything, but she's just not mega, mega,

internationally famous. And you would mention this actor, and they'd be like, she doesn't have value. Yeah. Literally the phrase doesn't have value. I had to ban the word value from meetings. I was like, I don't want to hear it anymore.

It is so disgusting and dehumanizing and stupid, And it's like, I am talking about who's good for the role. And you're talking to me about who's going to sell this imagined version of my indie film where it's huge in Taipei. And we need Kate Blanchett to be the waitress. It's like, stop. Like just stop. Not everything needs to be an end-over-end growth machine for like global domination. Yes.

Let's make a simple indie movie where everyone's good at the role. It makes me feel insane. I really, really agree. I wish that we could, I wish there was a way where we could just have more focus on like talent. in craft and not have to worry so much about like packaging, like packaging, like, there's too much like, there's just like a lot of idolatry in culture. And I feel like that's why we end up in this space where it's like, oh, let's put the hottest person in, I don't know. It frustrates me, Caleb. That's my so true. Rustrates me. I have a game for you. Okay. Okay, this is,

you know the game. You've listened to the show. I'm going to read you 15 statements. You're going to tell me as quickly as you can if what I just said was true or false. Okay. And if you get 10 or more correct, boy, we're going to give you 50 U.S. dollars. Are you ready? Okay. Okay. Tom Sawyer was a real person. False. False. There are 30 NFL teams. True. False. There's 32. Friendster is older than MySpace.

False. It's true. New Jersey's state motto is liberty and prosperity. False. True. The Mona Lisa was painted in the 1700s. True. False. 1600s. The Spanish National Anthem has no words. False. True.

Oh. The quick oh after each one. Oh. All snakes lay eggs to give birth. False. Some have live birds. Yeah. The iPad is older than the iPhone.

False. False. The side of a hammer is called the shoulder. The side. True. False. The cheek. Oh.

Dolphins can't smell. False. True. Barner College's mascot is Tilly the bear. False. It's Millie the bear. Oh. The first...

Sorry, I'm not doing it on purpose. No, I love it. The first McDonald's was located in California. True. True. The Arctic Ocean is the smallest ocean in the world. True. True.

There are three bones in a human ear. No. True. Old Navy was originally called Mission Bay Clothing. Yeah, true. False. It's always been Old Navy. Oh.

How'd she do, Jans? A strong six. Yeah. Out of how many? 15. Oh, that's good. That's really, really good. Honestly, we've had a couple sixes recently.

So there's something in the air. Wally, do you want to tell people where they can find you? Oh, you can find me on Instagram and in Bushwick. Exactly correct. Yeah. Oh, my God. I have something to say to you off camera. Okay, thank you so much for doing it.

This was great.