So True with Caleb Hearon - Zoe Lister-Jones is Carrying Secrets

Episode Date: April 16, 2026

Welcome back! This week’s guest is the talented Zoe Lister-Jones! Zoe and Caleb talk a harrowing trip they took together across the pond, navigating love and relationships, self talk, gossip, and much more! Join our Substack for ad free full episodes, early access to merch, our community chat, and more! https://calebsaysthings.substack.com/ Follow Zoe! @zoelisterjones Follow the show! @sooootruepod Follow Caleb! @calebsaysthings Produced by Chance Nichols @chanceisloud Get bugs out of your house with Pestie. Go to https://pestie.com/SOTRUE for 10% off your order. Go to https://www.squarespace.com/SOTRUE to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code SOTRUE. Shop now at https://Fabletics.com/sotrue to get seventy to eighty percent off everything when you sign up as a new VIP. Our listeners can buy one prescription pair and get 20% off additional pairs at https://WarbyParker.com/SOTRUE - and using our link helps support the show. #WarbyParker #ad So True with Caleb Hearon is edited and engineered by Nicole Lyons. Our social media manager is Virginia Muller. All episodes are filmed in The So Trudio at Legitimate Business World Headquarters in Brooklyn, New York. A Wave series. wavesportsandentertainment.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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This answers, Zoe. I can't. You have to. How's it going, babe? It's good. It's good to see you. I'm so happy to be. You've been avoiding me like the plague.

L.O.L. You've been avoiding me like the damn plague. Oh, my God. You've been walking the other way. You see me walking down the street. You cross the street. I do. Hold your purse tighter.

Yeah. That's right. You've been avoiding me. Because you are a known thief. Why? Well, well, I actually was on a date with a guy recently who was like, who was like, oh, God, I just, one of my biggest things I love to steal. I'm obsessed with him.

And I was like just from like, lock it up. I was like just from like corporations, right? He was like, no, house parties. Not house parties. I was like, are you going to steal stuff in my house? Did you invite him into your home? No, yeah, but I'm looking forward to it. I don't have anything.

to steal. I don't really have, I don't really have anything to steal. That's actually such a fun game to see what he would steal from him. I'm gonna put out little traps for him. I'm gonna put out like, you know how they, how rich people do for the maid to try and catch her in a thief? I'm gonna do that for the guy. Get some like teddy cams. Uh-huh. That'd be, oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Who told me this? Okay, I'm not, oh my God. I just heard, ah, ah! I just heard the juiciest gossip recently. Please, I live for this. Now, I don't know these people. Of course. Okay. So mind you, these people are strangers to me.

And that's the best kind of gossip there is. So I couldn't reveal too much about them even if I wanted to. My friend told me about their friend. Okay. Okay. I'm following. Okay. They have, there's three friends involved.

Shelley, David, Mark. These are fake names. Yes, of course. Shelly, David Mark. Okay. Shelly and David are a heterosexual couple. You hate to hear it. Okay.

You hate to hear it. Heterosexual monogamous couple. They're in their early 30s. Yeah. Heterosexual monogamous couple early 30s. It's a tale as oldest time. It is. What were their names?

Shelly and Mark. Shelly and Mark. David. David is Shelley's gay best friend. Okay. Also early 30s. I've seen this movie. Single gay guy.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Shelly checks the dog cam one day. Guess who's getting head from the gay best friend? Her husband! Oh! Whoa.

Yeah. Getting slurped off. Wow. By the gay bestie. She had no suspicions. How long have they been together? Checking the doggie cam. I don't know those details because they're perfect strangers to me.

I'm so sorry. Checking the doggy cam. Uh-oh. That's my gay best friend. Slurping off my husband. And? Taking the skin off my husband's thing with his mouth. An oral circumcision.

An oral circumcision. Throwing neck for my hubby. Wow. On the doggy cam. Whoa. Whoa. They ought to call it the oral cam. You know?

Because what was it going on on there? Crazy. What? Crazy, crazy, crazy. And guess what? What? That was hot to me. I want to see the video.

Interesting. You're looking, you're like, you got a cut kink. I thought it was hot. I thought it was hot. Cut kink? Like, cuck. Oh, I thought you said cut. I was like, I was like, I don't care.

I don't care if it's cut or not. You got a cut kink. No, a kunk. Like you want to see someone get cuckolded. No, I don't think that I do, but I do, I have recently, did I say this on the show already? I've recently been experimenting, I think cuck cheating is kind of hot. Now, that having been said, I don't do it. I don't do it and no one should do it to me.

And it's only hot if, well. It's three people you don't know. If it's three people you don't know, it's kind of hot. And if it's gay. Like if it's straight to gay cheating, that's hot to me. I understand. I understand. I understand.

I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the hottest thing to me is straight to gay cheating. Yeah, because it's also, it's like affirming. Well, yeah, it's like, okay, I knew this was fun. Yeah. I knew being gay was fun and now it's like unavoidable. Like even straight people are doing it.

You sort of have to support that cheating. Right. Because. Well, because like welcome to the community. Exactly. That's my brother. Yeah. Yeah.

Caught on the doggy cam getting sucked off by the gay best friend. Well, well, well, well, well, I would, and it made me think, you know what I would love to do at some point in my career, I would love to host a Jerry Springer type of show. I would love to be involved in some way anyway. Not some dumb ripoff. I'm talking OG original Jerry Springer style. I wear a suit. We bring these people out. Maybe afterwards they get into some huge fight in the parking lot that makes the news. That's the kind of stuff I'm a little interested in right now. Because that's like a gotcha show. That's like a gossip gotcha? Yeah. Because these people don't know. When they were going on Jerry Springer,

were they unaware of what they were being brought into? They knew. Did you watch the Jerry Springer documentary? No, I need to. Did you all watch the Jerry Springer documentary? Oh, my goodness. Incredible. Oh, it was incredible.

But they talked to, they interviewed some of the producers who convinced people to come on. Yeah. And no, a lot of times they were tricked. A lot of times they didn't know. They were tricked. And I wouldn't do that part. No.

No. And, like, give me, like, an example of, like, a top-notch, like, sweep, sweet episode. Um, I would bring on, like, for example, in, right now, instead of just talking to you, I would ambush you. I would ambush you with three of your former lovers who would pull up, they would come, they would walk in the door in probably, what is it, five or ten minutes? Five or ten minutes was stools, each of them.

And they would set up a row of stools back here and I'd be like, let's get into it. Oh my God. Can you imagine even five or ten minutes chance open the door and they all walked in? Wouldn't that be fun? I mean, kind of. Yeah, God, there's so many things I want to say right now that I don't think I can't. I know it. There's so many things I want to say right now that I don't think I'm allowed to say.

It would be a wild ride. Let's just say that. Let's just say that. Let's just put it like that. I'd be a good episode. Let's just put it like that. Yeah. Zoe, what's been going on with you?

Will you download me? You've been avoiding me like the plague. What else? What's been going on? I mean, you know, as you know, just like really investing in, myself. Yeah. A lot of therapy.

Yeah. Now, let me ask you something. Because you've been in a lot of therapy. As long as I've known you, right? Yeah. What's going? What's the end game? Have we, have we, have we, we, we?

We haven't figured it out. Well, I'm just curious. What's going on in there? A lot. Yeah? A lot. Are you still in the group therapy? Still in group therapy.

Okay. And I know I'm not allowed to talk about stuff that goes on in there, but. I mean, still in, last time that we saw each other. Yes. You said something. like, when will the lesbians have enough therapy? Something along those lives. When will we, you start to think at a certain point,

we should have figured something out, right? God, no. No, no, no, uh-uh. This day and age, no. Fuck. It's a sort of spiritual excavation. What are you finding? I mean, because, you know, we go into,

not in my therapy, but I, I visited a witch near the airport, and she told me all about my past lives. So the excavation is, I mean, we've got, centuries, you know, to explore. Do you feel there's a point where we're thinking about ourselves too much? Do you fear that? A hundred percent. Totally.

Just checking. Just checking. Just checking. A hundred percent. I would love to not think about myself as much. Yeah. Yeah, okay. Interesting. But it's like, you know, I'm trying to get to.

Here's the thing that I admire about you and is the only thing. Yeah, because there's a lot to also. be concerned about. Yeah, condemn. To condemn and disavow. Is that like, I feel like you generally have a real grasp on, like, happiness. Whoa. Whoa.

That's really sweet. Don't you think? Oh, I hope so. And I, mine is slippery at best. Is it? Yeah. I feel that you're happy. I, I'm like.

I think I'm a pleasure seeker. Totally. Whether I'm happy or not is sort of, that's what we're paying the big bucks for. Wow. Zoe, you've brought us something very important. Pleasure and happiness are not the same thing. No.

All the time. No. Pleasure and happiness are not the same thing. That's actually a lesson I've been dealing with the last couple of years. Okay. Because my 20s, I was just like,

I overcame, people are tired of hearing me talk about this on the show. I overcame my suicidal ideation. Yes. My sophomore year of college. Yes, I wanted to kill myself. Yes. I didn't do it.

And then I was like, fuck it. I'm having fun every minute of my life until it's over. Yeah. And then I got to like 28 and I was like, this isn't necessarily the same thing as happiness. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Right.

Did you have a similar journey? Oh, yeah. I mean, mine was later in life. Well, I mean, I went hard in my 20s, but then in my late 30s, which is in my future. I'm just kind of talking about what I'm seeing. What will happen later.

Yeah, later in my life. I went hard. Yeah. And there is something so, like, liberating. I feel like that's when I came to you. That is when you came to me. I think that's when we became friends. It is.

Because I felt, I'm, we started hanging out and I was like, damn, this bitch, she's really going after everything. I was going after everything. Yeah. Including you. Yeah. I mean, we barely knew each other. And you said, you want to come to Europe? Yes.

And I said 100% What was it? Two and a half weeks? Yeah. Strangers. Yeah. I said yeah. I actually remember we were, yeah, we had been, we had hung out a little bit.

We weren't strangers. I had said, no, but I'm on your side. It was pretty, I had said kind of half-heartedly. No, it wasn't. I had said like, oh, I hope she won't take me up on this. No. No. I said, we were at lunch.

Dinner. No. Yeah, you're right. We were at dinner. I said, I'm going to Europe. Do you want to come? Yeah. It wasn't half hard.

It was a totally genuine invitation. Yeah, yeah. I didn't think you would say yes. Absolutely not. Why would I? I was like, there's no way she'll say yes to this. And you're like, you'll come. Yeah, come.

I was like, okay. And then we went to London. We went to Amsterdam. We started in London. Started in Amsterdam. No, we did not. Yes, we did not. No, we did not.

No, we did not. Yes, we did. We went to Amsterdam and we were in that lake house. Have we gone to London a second time? No, but London was so... We took a train from London to Amsterdam. We landed in London. You're right.

I know that I'm right. And do you know how I know I'm right? We were in the back of one of those goofy little fucked up British taxi cabs. And you're like... You're like, should we go straight to the spa? I was like, I guess. And you got on the phone. You're like, two massages in how long will be?

41 minutes. Two massages in 41 minutes. And then I got a massage and felt the worst I've ever felt. Wait, why? They always make me feel bad. And then I'm pretty sure I had COVID in Amsterdam. Well, we both had COVID. For sure.

But we had a time. Oh my God, we had a time. We had a time. We almost missed the Boy Genius concert. Oh, my God. Because remember they didn't, we were at a train station in Brussels. With Holmes. Was Holmes there for that?

Oh, no. They came to the Boy Genius concert. They came to the Boy Genius concert. It's Holmes and Dan Levy. In Brussels, we almost, yes. We almost missed our train. That's right. Because we were just sitting.

They don't make any announcements. They don't tell you anything. You were in the gift shop buying a tiny bell. Yes. And you were just ringing it. And then suddenly it was like, oh my God, we were jingle jangling. We're jingle jangling. And we couldn't.

They were really rude too. They were really rude. They saw a side of me that very few people have seen. I've seen it. I got mad. They were mean to us. They were very mean. And I was, yeah, I was mad.

They were really, really rude to us. Yeah. I didn't like it. Me neither. I don't like when people were rude to me. I'm unique in that way. You are unique. You have to be nice to me.

But you know what? You do step to people who are rude to you in a way that I respect. Yeah, because they're being rude to all of us. It's crazy. Yeah. very nice. I'm like, very nice. I want to be nice to everybody. Yeah. But if you're rude to me, if you want to have a bad day, we can have one. And I will, I will participate in it. If you want to have a bad day, let's both have one. Yeah. I just don't want to. I'd rather have

fun. Me too. So then it makes me even more mad that I'm like, you know how lovely of an interaction we could have had? Yeah. We both could have went to sleep, smiling and kicking our feet about this tonight. Yeah. But instead, you wanted to be evil. Evil. And I can be evil. Do you feel that you can be evil? Evil? You can't be evil. No, I'm not evil. Do you feel? Do you feel? What do you feel you're capable of? What's the worst thing you think you're capable of and the best? The worst thing I'm capable of, I think I can be nasty. Oh, how so?

Like if I'm really, well, I can be nasty in gossip. You are a gossip. I'm a gossip and I'm working on that. Are you? Do you consider me a gossip more than other people are gossips? No, not at all. Thank you. But I do know, there are friends that I, if I have gossip, maybe I'll take it to them and they'll be like,

oh, that's interesting. and if I bring gossip to you, you're like, I'm slurping that shit, I'm slurping that cock right up. Yeah, you're on the doggy cam. Going down on that gossip. Yeah. Give it to me.

I live and die for gossip. You love gossip. That's not even really your fault, though. It's not my fault. The thing is, people bring it to me. Right. I think because I slurp it. Yeah.

They, they know, I'm an active. If you bring it, they will slurp. And if you slurp it, they will bring. Hello. Yeah. So, um, so I'm like, I am the carrier of many secrets as well. That's a beautiful thing to say about yourself.

That's an awesome. People used to talk like that. I am the carrier of secrets. You know what I mean? I am Zoe, carrier of secrets. Yes. That's beautiful.

Thank you. Of Brooklyn. Zoe of Brooklyn. Carrier of secrets. When are you going to move back to New York? I think we've had it with the L.A. era. Do you think so? Well, you have a beautiful home there.

I do love your house. But aren't you, I mean, don't you just feel that it's time to come on home? It's, I would say that your time here, is one of the more enticing elements. But, but. This is exactly what I've been banging on. I know. I know it.

And I don't like it. Oh. But I, I do think about it. I have so much fun when I'm here. Come on home. But I also. We want you back. I know.

Sorry, you also what? It's just, this is the, so when I, I lived in New York. I had a friend come who was like lived in L.A. And I thought she was so cool. And she was like, I love to visit New York but could never live here. And that turned me off to her for eternity. I was like, that person's not cool.

Yeah. That person will never be cool to me. Yeah. And now I am that person. A little bit. You're not that person. A little bit. Come on, Zoh.

I know. Maybe. Come back to New York. Maybe when I turn 30. Move back to New York. Reshave your head. When you turn 30 is very funny. Reshave your head.

Bring back your shaved head era. Don't you think? I never got to know you during that. I was thinking about it, actually. I never got to know you when you had like a faux hawk and you were playing in fucking bands. I didn't get to know that, Zoe. I know. I think we should bring her out.

Tell me about her. I sort of had to play a game of catch up. I don't know if you felt this way. But because I was so prudish in high school in college, I was like, we got to get this time and pop. Any take. Yeah. Yeah. And there were.

There were takers. But I sort of moved through, I think, like, important sexual crossroads in too much of a hurry at that stage of my life because I was feeling like I had to catch up. I don't know if you experienced that or if you're interested in talking about it. I go, me anyway. Anyway. No, totally. I feel really grateful for, I feel really grateful for a lot of things about my young sexual experience. And one of them is that I, I'm grateful for my prudishness and I'm grateful that I wasn't hooking up with 40 year old men on Craigslist.

I really, really, really hope that I don't mind an age gap. Like I don't mind someone. I'm not really prudish about age gaps in general. Me neither. But specifically, this is such a different thing that I'm like, when you're a child, I just really, even like guys in their 20s, I was like, if there was a guy on Grindr, when I was. a guy on Grindr when I was 17, 17, and he was 24. To me at the time, I was like, I think that would be a really bad idea. And I'm glad that I had that sense of like, uh, responsibility about it. Yes, totally. But then it didn't know. I did not in college do anything about it. I was, uh, if anything more

Prudish in college. Oh, you were. Yeah, I was just so focused on, I just grew, we, I grew up really poor and I was so focused on success. Yeah. And I also for a number, you know, I think success for me at that age was about a lot of different things. But it was about, it was about proving my value. It was about proving that I'm different than where I'm from. It was about validating that I'm different than where I'm from. Actually, it's a good thing that I never feel like I fully fit in where I'm from because it means I'm this other thing, which is successful and smart. And a person who always wins. And it was like, I'm going to get out.

I'm not going to be poor. I'm not going to be struggling with the bills for the rest of my life like a lot of my family is. And also, I'm fat and gay. And those things are in many spaces, like, undesirable. So basically it was like, if I can just, like, be the most successful person in the world. I think I can be untouchable and I can overcome this, like, these things that I don't like about myself. Yeah.

So college was like, that went into overdrive. Like, I was in like everything. I was in every club. I was at every meeting. I was at every protest. I was like, all my classes, like, I needed to have A's. I needed to like, it was really, which is, of course, why I ended up suicidal. It's like, that's not a good way to live.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, it was total overcompensating. It was total, like, it was total. just like insecurity on blast. But thankfully it went that way and not like a worse way. Yeah. That's not healthy, but it's not like, you know, doing mess. It served you.

Yeah. Yeah. It worked for a while. And then it didn't. Yeah. Yeah. But no, it was so that, all that is to say, no, I was not. I would say even when I got to Chicago after college, I was still really fixated on success

and trying to prove to myself that like choosing to pursue comedy was not a huge mistake. and then I wasn't like ruining my life doing this stupid foolish like thing. Yeah. I would say I started doing that thing probably like when I moved like maybe in my late 20s like in my mid to late 20s. And we met in your late 20s. We sure did. So we both met up at a really beautiful.

We left a beautiful moment. We were both really hungry. We were hungry. We were hungry. But how was the college catching up period? Did you feel like it was healthy, unhealthy, detrimental, positive? Detrimental. For sure.

Yeah. For sure. Yeah. No worries. Just checking. No worries. Yeah. Everything's fine now.

Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I went to fucking acting school. Yeah. So it was also like dire in terms of options. Hmm. At NYU. At NYU.

Wow. Yeah. I guess the grass is always greener. Because I'm going to tell you, I was sitting in Missouri State going, man, if I was in NYU, I'd be taken them down. You'd be in a different category. I think as like at the time, I identified as a straight woman.

Really funny, by the way. Which is hilarious. You were the shaved head. You were the shaved head doing panty bits at the rock show being like, I am traditional, if anything. Conservative, even. Yeah, no, I

identified as straight. I had always had crushes on girls. And to be honest, they thems before they knew they were they them. But I was, like, afraid of it. Even though I was surrounded by so many dykes. Like, my whole childhood was just, it was Dyke Day. Dyke Day every day.

Yeah. And still, it was scary to me, very scary to me, to, like, actually acknowledge my sexuality. So all to say that at NYU, it was like, you know, male actors. Yeah. Tough. Present company excluded. No. Because I don't think you identify as an actor.

And I'm going to say that for you. That was hurtful. For you. That was hurtful. Can I say something? Can I say something? You go, you go, you go, you go, you go, present company excluded because you're not talented.

Because, you know, let's be honest. You're not an actor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's be honest, you don't have it. Here's a thing. I don't identify as an actor. No. And I feel in the same vein you don't identify as an actor.

No, I, we're so much more, right? We're so much more. We're so much more. We're so much more. Please, please, please, please. Yeah, we're not just actors. No, I feel exactly what you. I actually had the thought when you said male actors that I was like,

oh yeah, and specifically actors. They don't write. They don't. Correct. There's nothing else going on other than like, there's something very specific about a man who is only an actor. Very specific.

It's a very intense kind of like. Yeah. Yeah. He's sucking off Mark on the doggy camp. Yeah, God. And I want to watch. They want to watch. And that's the best performance of his career.

I want to watch. Yeah. So it was, so I didn't, it was a tough time, but also I was, I think I. I'm sorry. What? I just remembered a joke. Go ahead. That I heard once.

Go ahead. Do you know this one? All right. Wouldn't know. There's this joke that goes like, it's, you know, what's the, you know, there's a show 90210. Correct. Right? From back in the day.

You know about this. I do. And it's called that because it's the zip code of Beverly Hills, right? Yeah. What's the What's the There's another popular show From that time

Called Dawson's Creek What's the zip code in Dawson's Creek Do you know? No 910808 I mean I gotta go Come on

Isn't that fun Don't leave me Nine I want to wait Nine I want to wait For our lives to be over That's funny That's funny Anyway what was going on with you in college

Anyway Your sex was bad for you. His sexuality was repressed and I was sort of forcing myself to have sex with male actors. No, I, what was going on? I was a wild child in college. And I met my gay best friend in the laundry room, classically, of my dorm. And then we just like went buck wild on the streets of New York City. His name is Ryan.

You still friends? Not really. Wow. Not, not friends. but we just sort of lost touch. Yeah. And we, it was like New York at that time. New York at that time.

It was unbelievable. I mean, you would have. You would have died. The music scene, it was New York 2000 and 2004. So it was like strokes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like all of, it was, it was indie slees. It was height of indie sleeves. And so we were just like out every night at shows and just like going nuts.

I was never wearing pants. You know what I mean? Yeah. And... What are you wearing? Just shirts. Nice. Yeah.

And... You would have loved New York in this time. I wasn't wearing... I was wearing only shirts. I mean, you would have loved that. Love that. But I will say, still, in college, I was, like, performing wild child. And I was a wild child.

But sexual intimacy, again, was, like, kind of... I wasn't really... I wasn't as free as I was purporting. Purporting. So you were fucking? Here and there. Not even really. Not having that much sex.

Not really. I was in a very codependent relationship with my gay best friend. And we were sort of, it's sort of isolated and insulated us from fucking. And then once he started fucking, I was like, ha damn. You know?

Because then he was like, he became really sexually liberated. Yeah. And I. I still wasn't. Took until probably like 37 when we met for me to really find it. Yeah? I mean, kind of.

It was around that time of my life that I really, I think this happens for many cis women. Like late 30s to early 40s, there is like a sexual, an internal sexual revolution that's occurring. Yeah. That is pretty cool. Yeah. That's really interesting.

I've felt that. Like, I felt that in our friendship. I've witnessed the permutations and the changes. And I know what's going on over there to some extent. Oh, yeah. That's really interesting. So, yeah, the codependent friendship in your 20s can really take things off the rails. Well, it's a cockplock and it's also a very confusing.

Yeah, I'm just glad you had yours with a gay man. Who was yours with? Well, I just mean that most of the women. women I know have had that intense, psychotic, codependent friendship with another woman. And they are varying levels of queerness. And God help you. If two straight women get into a, let's just say lesbian codependent friendship, it gets really fucking confusing very fast.

And having to be on the perimeters of that. And like, I feel like, do you know, in movies after something big has happened, there's always that one non-speaking character who runs in with one of the blankets and wraps it around the person, that's me with lesbian codependent friendships. I'm just waiting with the blanket like whenever you're ready. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've had to bring the blanket to so many girls.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That are like, she's just my friend. It's like, okay. If you say, you're really upset she couldn't go to dinner. You know what I mean? So something more might be going on. Totally. But I'm glad yours were the gay man because it's very clear.

It was very clear. Still bad but clear. Bad but clear. And that's sort of, yeah, the theme of my life. Bad but clear. Hey, I understand what's going on and I don't like it. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, and then I, I started dating, I started dating, yeah, men who were, or I started dating a boy in college.

He was sort of my first boyfriend. And, yeah, I'll say it. It was like he had attempted suicide. And then went to the psych ward, and that's when I decided, you're the one for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You said, hey. Because he had a crush on me before that. Yeah.

Before the suicide? Yeah. Attempt? Sorry. Yes. Yes. Before the attempt. Yeah.

And then I, it took. I mean, it really speaks. It says a lot of what we're in packing. It's like I, I. Yeah. Was attracted to the chaos, I think. You thought, you were like, this is fun that he's gone to the ward. I didn't think it was fun.

I was very concerned for him. Yeah. Okay. But I, but it's interesting that that was like, that's the. guy. That's what flipped the switch. That's what flipped the switch. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and and that, yeah. Yeah. And I think, then I, that's something that I sort of continued to repeat. Yeah. To varying degrees of like, yeah, being attracted to probably the chaos of my childhood if we're really getting into it. And I've been in enough therapy if you want to talk. If we really want to talk about where this is from. Just down the

block from here. Starting around four. It was really chaotic. Yeah. Um, Yeah, so I think that anyway. But then he was like my first boyfriend and treated me pretty poorly. And set off sort of a chain reaction of toxic dysfunctional relationships. Yeah. Yeah. And how are you doing now? How's it going now?

The way you wanted to get out of that. I don't. No, no, no. One thing about me, I don't, I will stay in it for as long as you'd like to. It means nothing to me. You know what's sick about me is I actually had to stop myself. from asking, why do you think he tried to kill himself? What happened?

That's where I really wanted to go. And I decided for your sake not to. I'll be in it all day. Yeah. He's also, he's thriving now. So he's doing well. Nice. I just wanted to say that for the listeners out there.

He's in the Senate. Yeah. He's the senior senator from South Carolina. He's James Tala Rico. But I, no, I, what was your question? How are things going now? How is things going now?

Do you feel like you made some progress on this? Are you, sexing love addiction? Has that ever entered your situation? Okay, cool, just checking. I mean, not, I've not been diagnosed. Totally. But it's definitely something that I'm intrigued to explore once I get the time, because the calendar's pretty packed.

Once I get through the treatments I'm in now, I'd love to walk in on love and sex edition. I love to lock in on that kind of stuff. Well, I mean, I do think that most, many people are afflicted without really, you know, by definition knowing what it means. Totally. I think, yeah.

Especially like at one point or another in one's life, there has been an addiction to sex or love. I think most of our problems, most of what people refer to as like, dating sucks or dating is so hard. My feeling is that most of the time that is like undiagnosed things going on in the community. Like you're around a lot of people

that are going through stuff they don't even know about. I think if everyone knew more about, their stuff, dating wouldn't be so hard. But so many people in dating don't know what's wrong with them, what they're looking for, what's wrong with the person they're with. And wrong, I mean like, just really what's going on? Yeah.

Like, why are you behaving like that? Why do you get turned off when someone is interested in you? Does anyone have an answer to that? Ask you for a friend. Does anyone have an answer to that? When someone likes you back, why is it such a turnoff to all of us? Correct.

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to a greater or lesser extent, many of us are just looking for evidence that we are unworthy of being loved. Say it again? It was too good, I can't repeat it. No, I think we're sort of all, maybe not all, but many of us are looking for evidence

that we are not worthy of being loved. At least that I'll speak for myself, not the community in general. He's going to push back and I can sense it. considering it. Do you know what I mean though? Like that it's something that I've come to very recently in my life because I fight really hard for romantic relationships, but I think at my core, I am always like kind of looking for the ways in which someone could reject me or the ways in which like I might not be lovable because I think that is unfortunately my core

belief. Like. That you're unlovable. Yes. On a deep level. Oh, I find you so easy to love. Thanks. No, and I appreciate that.

I find you so easy to love. You're talking about only romantic love? No, no. I mean, look, I think I am a lovable person. And I love you and I love to be loved by you. Yeah. But I think that there is something like that's like sort of molten core, like deeper. Deeper than like what I can know.

it's like what I can know You know what I mean? And what's in there? It's like deep, it's like... What's that part? That maybe I don't actually believe I'm lovable. So the really deep molten core. But down here, do I know it?

Huh. You know? And I think that's like, that's why we're in all the therapy is to sort of just chip away it, that thing. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I don't know.

I don't know her. I'm not in there with her. I know. I wish I could. She's little. I wish I could. could tell her, yeah, I wish I could tell her how easy she is to love and how love she is. But that's hard. That's really hard. I don't know. I don't, I guess I don't, yeah, I don't know how

you get her out of there. I mean, it's like, I think, some more therapy talk, but I do think it is like acts of self-love. I think it's not seeking it from the outside world. It's figuring out how to, like, be really sweet to yourself. Yeah. And that's something that I really admire you. I think you are very sweet to yourself. I try. Yeah. I try to be. I'm getting better at it. Yeah. I think I was very hard on myself for a long time and realized it wasn't really working. Like, or not even that. It's like my life is great. Yeah. This is the problem with anxiety and negative self-talk and things like that is like, if your life is going well, there's at least some evidence that it's working. You know what I mean? You go like, oh my God,

I wish I wasn't so anxious, but fuck if I wasn't so anxious, would I have gotten that done on time or would I be where I'm at. So there's like some level of like reinforcement that like it's kind of working out, you know? Absolutely. But I realized like I think I could get just as much done. I think I could show up just as well for my friends if I was doing all the same things I'm doing just in a sweeter way to myself. You know what I mean? Just being nicer to myself. Yes. But that realization was hard to come by. I think for a long time it was like you have to be mean to yourself in order to get things done. Yes. Do you know what I mean? Well I think because I have a similar, um, experience as you, like, in my childhood, where I was like, I must be successful in order to, like,

write the wrongs of, like, or just like, I had seen how my parents are both artists and they were always, like, broke and struggling. And I was like, that cannot be me. And so I think I also put a lot of attention on work and being the best and, like, perfectionism. But perfectionism, while it can lead you to success and acclaim can also lead to negative self-talk. Right. Because there's such a sense of like, do better. Do better. Yeah. You know.

So how's it going now? Do you feel good? I do. I feel good now. Yeah. Nice. I think, yeah, life is pretty good. Yeah? I mean, the world's on fire, but I feel like I'm, I've found many things that bring me happiness in my life, which is really nice. Yeah.

Yeah. what do you think? I feel like there's so many people who listen to the show that are, we're having an earnest episode. Me and you. Is it too earnest? Not at all.

I love an earnest episode. We're having an earnest episode. So I'm curious, like, if somebody's gotten this far into the episode, they're down with the earnestness. Oh, God. They're like down with the earnestness. Because I think we have really silly episodes

that I get to about this point and I go like, I can kind of say any silly, stupid, goofy shit I want because if they stuck around, they're here for it. Yeah. Feel the same way about earnestness that I'm like, we've had a very earnest talk.

So I think there are, I know that there are a lot of people who listen to and watch the show that are, you know, probably in pretty similar positions to the one that you were in when you were maybe at NYU. Like they're like early 20s. Yeah, yeah. They're going crazy. Yeah. They're fucking people. They shouldn't be fucking. Yeah.

They're anxious. They're perfectionists. They haven't figured a lot of things out yet. What like, yeah, what do you think is the thing that you would tell that version of yourself now, knowing everything you know, having been through what, 78 kind of. of therapy. Yeah. What would you tell her? What would be helpful?

Maybe someone will get something. What would be helpful? I mean, I think, you know, go toward what makes you feel good. And sometimes that's a learning curve. So it's like sometimes something can make you feel good and then makes you feel really bad. And that's okay too. That's all right.

And that's okay. Most of the time those two things are kind of in a Venn diagram. Yeah. I would say like, go easy on yourself. You know, like at every age you are, I feel like it's the oldest you feel you will ever be. You know, like when I was in my 20s, I was like, well, this is it. Nothing else to learn. You know, I got to get it really right.

And it's like I would just be easy on myself, enjoy my collagen and sort of the lift, the general lift that's on the face. and like yeah i would say like don't just don't accept crumbs that's what i would tell my my 20 year old self don't accept crumbs you're worth more than crumbs and go after the people that like really see you and um lift you up and make you feel like happy don't chase the thing that is like um going to make you feel going to increase the negative self-talk. We have enough of that. Yeah.

So I think surround yourself with people and work and experiences that increase the positive self-talk. Yeah. I think also be honest with yourself. Some people don't need to hear this. Some of you do not need more positive self-talk. You know, we got to really be honest. Correct, correct, correct. This is the problem with all, like, advice and inspiration.

I know. It's like, you've got to be honest with yourself. There are some things that I hear that I hear someone say really convincingly on the internet that some like beautiful older woman with the right pair of glasses is she's like you have got to and then she'll say something that I'm like that is so beautiful and sounds so correct and then I do a little quick self inventory and I go that wasn't for you Caleb oh and you don't need that you need part of I think this is part of the problem that we're in right now culturally is not enough people are going was that for me yeah I need to hear that do I need to respond

to this was this meant for me do I need to project my life experiences onto that thing I just consumed. Not enough of us are taking a second to go like, that one doesn't apply to me. So just figure out what you need, because there are some people, okay, that have way too much positive self-talk. And they're not having, and it would actually be helpful if every once in a while an anxious, maybe critical voice said, do less, do less of that. So I think, and I mean this with love, just figure out which one you need. Yes. And I will say that the algorithm, because you see all these, like, there's so many people giving advice on my algorithm, obviously. And they're all like, if you're seeing this, this is for you. And that, and that's not

not correct. Not necessarily. No. I agree with you. Some people need to tone it down. Yeah. Some people could use maybe a little more humility. Some people. Some people. I'm not here to say who it is. I'm just saying. But those who are like, um, too much. Or, whatever, whoever the, the crowd is that you're speaking to. Yeah. That ultimately just comes from actually being insecure. Totally. Don't you think?

But I'm like the solution, if the goal is wellness, peace with yourself, genuine happiness as often as you can have it, the solution is not going to be the same for everybody. And the person, like the egomaniac who hears that, if you hear, if you know that you have a big ego, there's nothing wrong with that. We can work with that. That's okay. but if you have a big ego and you know that about yourself genuinely when you're alone with your thoughts and no one else has to know that you know it yeah if you hear someone say work on being kinder to yourself

there's a different way to apply that than sweeter self-talk you're probably already being pretty sweet to yourself do you know what I mean there's a different way to be kinder to yourself sometimes give me the inner monologue for that person sometimes being kinder to yourself means like hey ask other people some questions and stop talking so fucking much got copy that might be 100% agree so when you hear someone say maybe like take up as much space as you know that's not for you less space that's not for you yeah yeah yeah work on taking up less because your your natural setting is more yes do you know I mean a hundred percent I just want people to be realistic that's all yeah yeah and I'm trying to do it for myself I hear things sometimes and I go that's not for you like I struggle to keep in touch with

people it's a really it's a thing I'm really working on do you yes I keep in touch as much as I can I do okay, but it's a huge, you know, it's a big list of like people I'd like to be keeping in touch with. I could do better with people that are close to me and I want to do better. And so when I hear people be like, you don't owe anybody anything. Turn that phone off. I'm like, ooh, that's already my, that's already my kind of default. I need to, I need to let that one slip out of my memory a little bit. I will say this about you. You respond. I respond. But I've, you're not good at responding anymore. I'm like kind of in my don't respond error. But here's why though. I'm in I'm a little bit of not to you not to you because I will say and here's the deal

you don't ask me for much there the phone has become kind of a nightmare for me where every time I open it there are 70 messages minimum across platforms and 65 of them somebody wants something what do they want anything can you can you can you buy this can can you share this can you post this can I come on your show can can are you going to be in town Can you do my show? Can you... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey, this person's waiting to hear back about this.

We need to schedule a meeting with this person. And some of it is necessary and great. Yeah. I don't want a life where nobody wants anything from me. Yeah. But I'm starting to get a little bit like... I'm starting to get to the point where I'm like, I'm just really not going to respond to that.

Yeah. Because there are times when it's inappropriate. Yeah. If you ask me for absolutely anything, I would be like, for sure. Yeah. But there are people who I haven't talked to in months or years were not really particularly close. And they're asking for something.

And they're asking for something that's like, that's kind of a big ask. Yeah. And there's nothing wrong with asking. Do your thing. I'm not mad at them for asking, but I am like, I think as much as you get to ask,

I feel like I should get to just not respond. Yeah. At a certain point. But I also don't fully believe that is the issue. It's hard because it's not how I operate. You know what I mean? Yes. But I'm also like it's making me miserable responding to all this shit.

So something needs to change. It's finding a balance. Yeah. Yeah. And prioritizing who you want. respond to. Yeah. But I will say that I do, I admire how you respond, because I respond how you respond, at least to me. I'm a responsive. I don't leave my friends not responded to for days, days, days, days, weeks. That's a tough one for me. I hate that. It's tough one for me.

So I, I am an active, I like a, a quick response time. That's the thing is, like, sometimes I don't get a response from someone about something that isn't even me asking for something. And they're, they're 200 times less busy than I am. I know it. You mean to tell me you can't text me back? You've got nothing going on. That's right. It makes me feel crazy. I might. Right now we're going to pause it and it's going to play piano music and it's just

going to be a scroll like an in-memorium. Here's everyone that has less going on than me that should have texted me back. Yeah, I got it. It makes you feel crazy. Crazy. Because I'm like, what do you mean? Crazy. You have you have, you're not working right now.

You don't have a. partner. You don't have a kid. You don't have like a parent in hospice. Not even a pet. You don't have, don't have a dog or a cat. You don't run around the house. No. And you're telling me you can't get back to me about lunch. Come on. Something's up. Yep. Something's going on. That's right. I'm calling the cops. We need that person needs more negative self-talk. Owl. I mean, I don't want them to go negative, but I certainly want them to go critical. Critical. You know? It's a fine line. Start asking some questions. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I don't care. Whatever. Yeah. No, I know. I really don't care.

I really, I'm telling you, after a 10 minute, Tyrant, actually, I really don't care. A big thing, a big thing I've been doing lately is I'll go on like a three minute, Michelle has heard a lot of this. I'll go on like a three minute rant about something and I'll be like,

that's what I would say if I was someone who cared about that. I'm like, whatever, man. Life is hard. I don't give a fuck. Whatever. I know. Whatever. Forget it.

Just forget it. I know. I need to get on a bike in the sunshine ASAP and we'll figure. We'll sort it. That's right. That's all you need. That's right. That's all I need. Yeah. God.

Remember when I had to kill all those spiders for you? That just came to my mind. Oh my God. Do you remember that? I forgot about it until just this moment. That was crazy. There were probably 40 to 50 spiders. That's not exaggeration.

No. We stayed at an Airbnb in Amsterdam. Yeah. On a body of water. Yes. I wanted to swim. Yes. And you did.

And you said, can you come up to my room? And I said, what for? And you said, the spiders? And I said, huh? I go up there, there are spiders lining the walls. Living, crawling. But were you impressed with how calm I was? You weren't.

You have a revisionist. I was. You were shaking. No. Zoe. I feel like I went down like this. Hey, Caleb. Can you come upstairs and just check on something for me?

Yeah. Do you want to see what I saw? Okay. Okay. You be me. I'll be you. Okay. Caleb.

Can you go upstairs for a second? I want you to check on something for me. Thank you. You know, it's not a huge, but people will note the difference. There's a twitch. There's a rattling, radiating fear. Yes, yes, yes. It's basically like if I, it's the way I would have expected you to come down if there was a man in the closet.

I would be like, Caleb, come upstairs. Real quick. I killed them. No, I, that actually speaks to sort of my general demeanor in my life. It's like, I believe I'm calm and I'm actually like, hey, um. Can I talk to you for a second? Then I message the host. You sure did.

I messaged the host and I said, hey, not trying to be crazy or anything, but we've had to kill so many spiders. I'm wondering if maybe you send someone. She goes, she goes, oh yeah, we sent a guy over for that. But it's a new build and the ecology is still kind of getting figured out. So there's just going to be a lot of spiders. Maybe something we put in the listing. I feel like you pushed back. I did.

And you said like this is absolutely un-executive. I said that's crazy. We paid a lot of money to stay here. I don't know that they ended up doing anything for us. I don't think they did anything for us. Yeah, but I at least said my piece. You did, and that's what I love about you. You did.

And then afterwards, you're like, actually, I don't care. Yeah. I was like, you know what, fucking. We actually like these spiders. I'm going for a swim. First of all, I have COVID. Our brain fog. There were probably no spiders.

First of all, I have COVID. I've killed most of the spiders. I'm going for a COVID swim. If anybody needs me. We were. I mean, I do have a thing with spiders where I sort of like to, I don't like to, but I accept them as my like cohabitants. Not me. You don't. Not me. And that's why I called you up because I can't kill a spider. They fear me. I don't care what they're doing. People say, oh, they're eating the flies. Don't care.

No. Joey, what's so true to you? You didn't think of one. You know, no, I did. Well, it's sort of in line with what we've been talking about. and Rob Rausch kind of that's the snake wrangler he sort of brings me here too I do think it's like the end I hope that for just the community at large

it's sort of the end of the era of the fuck boy yeah that's my that's what I that's what's so true to me I believe it is the end knowing your history you better hope it's the end of the era of the fuck they well I was gonna say

I've seen the situations you find yourself in fuck fuck boys I've long not been the problem I was gonna say the they thems are they greatest offenders. Neither boys, no girls,

but they do fuck. You need to champion the abolition of the fuck they. The abolition of the fuck they is, I would say it's, I don't know if it's the end of the fuck they. That's the problem. No,

the fuck them will continue to be a problem. The fuck them are still fucking them. But the fuck boys, I think they're out to pasture. You think so? I think they might be. I think Timote has sort of like, he's ushering them out.

Yeah, but you're a huge fan of his. Huge. Yeah. So it's a hard time for me. I can't weigh in on the discourse about him. We will not. We're not getting into it. We will not get into it. But I'm just saying... Let me just say this. I don't give a fuck.

Me neither. There's been like five crises lately that I'm like five like big internet moments and I'm like, you're gotta be kidding me. We care about this? I know. I can't believe it. And shout out to ballet and opera, but I will say we're not going to talk about it. We're not even going to go there. It's so dumb. I don't care. But I will say that I think like, yeah, he was sort of the flag bearer.

Was he? Absolutely. I thought he was viewed as such a like sweet artsy boy. I didn't know he was viewed as like a fuck boy. Oh, he's a fuck them. He's a fuck them. He's a fuck them. He's they them.

He's the fuck them. Timothy Shaw may they them. Reveal. My so true. So true. Yeah. He doesn't win the Oscar and he goes, you know what? Fuck it.

I'm they them. What now? That's how he gets out of his soft cancellation. Yeah. Yeah. I also cancel it. I mean, the bar for canceling. I thought we were past this. I thought we were past canceling people over nothing.

He's not canceled. I know he's not, but even anyone caring at all. I just was like, oh my God. Here's what I need. Here's what I'll say. I mean, it's not about that specific issue. No. I need most of the people on the internet.

Yeah. Very quickly to go outside. That's right. And find a real problem. I want you to find a real problem to have. Yeah. I want you to find a real problem to have. I want you to pick something that's going on.

There's plenty to pick from. I want you to pick one of the real problem. that exist. Okay. And I want you to get as excited about that as you are about this dumb fucking shit that you get mad about, about your little people in your phone that you love. But don't you think that,

and this is the gossip in me. Say it. We need frivolous gossip in order to cope with how horrific the actual world is. Gossip. It should be funny and lighthearted and fun. Correct. It shouldn't be like genuine screeds and thought pieces about. I know.

I know. About something like that. That's not, to me, it's like it needs to retreat. The problem is, yes, we do need frivolous gossip right now more than ever. Yes. Not more than ever. We need silly frivolous gossip. I'm not going to say what, but there was a really fun one recently that I'll talk to you about off camera that I've kind of caught some heat about.

We mentioned it on this show. There's some fun gossip about celebrities that I think we can have a lot of fun with. The couple at the Coldplay concert. Oh, yeah. People were upset. People cared. People cared. Well, of course, you love cheating.

I love. I was like, I bet they're having the night of their fucking lives. I mean, imagine she did the Coldplay concert. I bet they had the fucking time of their lives. It's not the point. There's a New York Times article about, you know, it's like, this is insanity. Get real problems now. I'm running.

Get real problems now. 2028. Get real problems now. Yes. And Shalemae is your VP. I'm Caleb Hare and I prove this message. It's insane to me. It's absolutely insane. But guess what?

What? I have a game for you. Speaking of frivolity. Yeah. We're going to play a game. It's called True False. Guess what, Zoe? I'm going to read you 15 statements.

You're going to tell me as quickly as you can if what I just said was true or false. Okay. If you get 10 or more correct, we're going to give you 50 U.S. dollars. Unbelievable. Yes. You ready? Okay.

Okay, as quick as you can. There have been two theatrically released Puss and Boots movies. True. True. The toilet plunger was invented in 1774. True. False, 1874. The C.N. Tower is the tallest structure in Canada.

True. True. True. True. True. True. False. Hearing that F was so painful.

Edward R. Murrow high school's colors are green and silver. Fuck. I don't have colors. False. False. Green and white. Flagstaff is the capital of Arizona. Oh no. Oh, God. People think I'm smart. False.

False. It's Phoenix. It's Phoenix. Susan Sarander. Susan Sarander. Susan Sarandon is an avid supporter of ping pong. True. True. The Zoon is older than the Blackberry. The what? The Zoon? The Zoon?

The Zoon? Is older than the Blackberry? I don't know what the Zoon is. False. False. The Grammy Awards got their name from the gramophone. True. True.

You're 53 players on an active NFL roster. Oh, brother. 53? This answer, Zoe. I can't. You have to. I'm frozen in fear. False.

That's true. Identical twins don't have the same fingerprint. Oh my God. I'm interested in this. True. It's true. Lollipops were named after a racehorse. I love lollipops. Answer the question. You're saying true?

True. It's true. The Amazon River is the largest river on Earth. True. False. It's the Nile. Fuck. Sloths can hold their breath longer than dolphins. True? It's true. Okay. NYU was founded by Stanwood Colch. False. False. Albert Gallatin.

Chance how'd you do? 11. Wow! Zoe! You're $50 rich or how do you feel? I feel on top of the world. I love you so much. Do you want to tell people where they can find you,

how they can support you, etc.? At Zoe Lister Jones on the gram. And I think that's... I love that. Yeah. I love that and I love you. Thanks for doing it. I love you too.

It's a great episode.