Sober Motivation: Sharing Sobriety Stories - Alcohol and Cocaine brought Sarah to a place of self-hatred, would sobriety change things?

Episode Date: February 10, 2025

In this episode, we have Dr. Sarah Michaud who shares her deeply personal and transformative journey through addiction and codependency. Sarah opens up about her childhood marked by alcoholism, her struggles with substance abuse, and the life-altering moments that led her to seek help. She discusses the hardships of growing up in a chaotic environment, the role of denial in addiction, and the sobering reality of hitting rock bottom. Through her story, Sarah illuminates the often painful but ultimately rewarding path to recovery, emphasizing the importance of self-awareness, setting boundaries, and the life-changing benefits of sobriety. This is Sarah’s story on the sober motivation podcast. ------------- Join the Sober Motivation Community HERE ---->>>> https://sobermotivation.mn.co Sarah on YouTube here------>>> https://www.youtube.com/@leavingcrazytown

Welcome back to season four of the Sober Motivation podcast. Join me, Brad, each week as my guests and I share incredible and powerful sobriety stories. We're here to show sorority as possible, one story at a time. Let's go. In this episode, we have Sarah, who shares her deeply personal and transformative journey through addiction and codependency. Sarah opens up about her childhood marked by alcoholism, her own struggles with substance abuse, and the life-altering moments that led her to seek help.

She discusses the hardships of growing up in a chaotic environment, the role of denial and addiction, and the sobering reality of hitting rock bottom. Through her story, Sarah illuminates the often painful but ultimately rewarding path to recovery, emphasizing the importance of self-awareness, setting boundaries, and the life-changing benefits of sobriety. And this is Sarah's story on the sober motivation podcast. How's it going, everyone? Brad here, welcome back. I want to share a few things with you about the submotivation community before we jump into this episode.

If you're in a spot where you're struggling to really string some days together, or maybe you're even further along in your journey and you're feeling a little bit alone and you're feeling like there's got to be more to this whole sobriety thing, I encourage you to check out the sober motivation community. It's like I often say on the podcast, it's not completely just getting sober. It's like now that you've gotten sober, how do you stay sober? I believe that really is a big part of what we struggle with, is that how to get continuous sobriety, weeks, months, years, whatever it is.

It's not just a platform. Sober motivation is a community of individuals united by a common goal to live an alcohol-free life with support and encouragement we all need along the way. And you hear so often in these stories, I mean, creeping up to 200 of them about when things really change for people. one really awesome member in the community, I want to redo something that he wrote about it. And he's been with the community since day one. And he just passed over 500 days.

He says this, sober motivation has been a difference maker in my sober journey. Having tried other communities during previous sobriety attempts, I never felt like I truly belonged. Since day one of joining this community, I have felt deeper connection with all the host and community members. This has allowed me to open up and truly embrace. a new sober lifestyle as well as help heal some of the pain and resentment that I caused during my active addiction. This community has helped me get my life back. Thank you. That's just one of the write-ups. There's a bunch of them and a lot of people who share that same experience. The meetings are flexible. They're daily. You can join virtually. Sign up. Right now we have a free 30-day

trial, that's going to be going away at the end of this week. Also, the price is closest to the cheapest it's ever been. That is going to be increasing at the end of this week. And I would love for you to join in. I host three meetings a week inside of the app. There's tons of other stuff in there that you can plug into community, make some friends from all over the world, and hope to see you in a meeting soon. Now let's get to this episode. Welcome back to another episode of the sober motivation podcast. Today we've got Sarah with us. How are you? I'm great. Great to be here. Thanks, Brad. Yeah, awesome. Thank you so much for reaching out and be willing to share your story here on the show. Yeah, I'm motivated to support people in recovery because I've been around a while and I feel

like I have a lot of experience, good and bad. And so hopefully I can help someone else on my story. Yeah, 110%. So what was it like for you growing up? So I, of course, like a lot of people that are on your podcast grew up in alcoholism. Mom was the alcoholic. I had four brothers. I didn't know I was a girl until I was like 13. I say that all the time because I was a tomboy for years. And my dad was the co-addict, as we call in the business. You know, he was just angry that my mother drank. So he was angry a lot. And basically, you know, I wrote a book on codependency like I told you. And I often say from my first memory, I remember being focused on other people's thoughts, feelings, and behaviors. So from being a kid, my codependency developed and my focus away from me started because I was focused on my mother's

alcoholism and my dad's anger. So that was a setup, you know, to take me into further dysfunctional relationships. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that, too. You know, it's interesting too because there's a lot of people that kind of share different sides of that too, but being so close to home, I mean, when do you, if you can remember or if you did, start to pick up on it that there's addiction in the home, that struggles with alcohol in the home, alcoholism in the home? I mean, I think very young. It's interesting because patients over the years, people that I've had that are came in for their own addiction problem, they often say, oh, my kids didn't know. And the fact is, I knew when I was like five. I mean, I knew.

knew there was chaos. I knew my mother at the dinner table would be trying to light her cigarette backwards, which was always a clue that drinking was on board. We'd find bottles. I mean, I remember one time coming home from school, probably a junior high school and going into our living room and my mother was on the floor and I thought she was dead. Do you know what I mean? And she was drunk. All of us and they call, you know, now they call it trauma bonding. But I mean, my brothers and I became a very close unit because you become very hypervigilant about what's going on in your environment when there's that much chaos. And I often say, you know, from three years old, being worried about my mother's feelings, you know, it started way early, whether I knew it was about drinking at three,

but I knew something was up. And I remember saying also that I remember deciding I've got to figure this out because they don't know what's happening. You know, as a kid, Another thing too, which I think maybe you just hinted at it there too is maybe growing up a little bit faster too when you have parents. Yeah. You become parentified. I mean, that's like a word in psychology. And we all become like responsible for their needs. And it's crazy when you think about it because you're, you'll be 10 years old thinking, oh my gosh, I'm going to help my mother to stop drinking or I have to help my dad stop being depressed or I have to help this person. And yet, you know, the core of codependency and a lot of stuff that I talk about in my groups is trying to identify what you want and need.

The mantra is what do I want and need? Because so much of the focus when you're growing up in chaos is what other people want and need. So we totally lose touch with ourselves in the process. Yeah. What are things looking like for you in school when that starts? I think in school, either we're looking for chaos. or were shut down. I remember being like an elementary school years,

being just really shy and quiet. But then, of course, the minute I picked up alcohol, which I think was around 15, you know, I was the life of the party. I started to become really extroverted. I thought, you know, I was making friends. I mean, my entire world shifted, and I thought I had discovered the solution to all kinds problems.

And yet, of course, it was just adding another problem. Yeah. It's interesting you say that. What was your experience, too, when you first started drinking? Because I mean, some people are going to experiment with drinking and, you know, hit it right off. It's going to solve some of these problems, aircloths for us. And other people, it's not really maybe going to hit the same. What was it like for you? Yeah, it's fascinating. Isn't it? I mean, for me, and I don't know what your audience or what you feel about genetics, but in my line of genetics, my mother was an alcoholic, my grandmother was an alcoholic, my uncle's uncles were alcoholics. And I really feel like the minute it got in my system, I wanted more.

And I mean, the first time I drank, I got drunk. It in my mind became the solution. So yes, not everybody has that response. And, you know, some people say alcohol was the problem or alcohol was the solution to my problem. I mean, it's really both because obviously it helped quell my anxiety and my struggle and my inferiority and my feeling ugly and less than as an adolescent, but of course then set up a bunch of other problems. Yeah. How was, you mentioned he had four brothers too. Yeah.

How was everybody else moving about things at this age? Yeah. I mean, I have two older and two younger, so I'm right in the middle. You know, and it's really funny, and you hear this from people. it was almost like two different families. My two older brothers were one unit and then it was myself and my two younger brothers, which were another unit. And they, let's see, so we're talking about the 60s and the 70s and pot and drugs and everything started. And I remember them just being quote unquote hippies, long hair, smoking pot, smoking cigarettes. And, you know,

up until I started drinking, I was totally against drugs. I thought, oh my God, I'll never get into drugs meanwhile. So yeah, I mean, everybody was to me trying to survive and cope in their own way, however that was. Whether it was drugs, alcohol, you know, I often say Twinkies were my first addiction when I was really little. I just ate sugar, you know, anything to try to quell my anxiety. So whatever it was to help me feel okay, that's what I did. Yeah. And it's a, It's something we hear a lot, too. I always share the story, too, about, I mean, alcoholism, like, I don't really know if a lot of people struggled to that level in my family with it. There was definitely mental health things, but like, I'm with you the first time I drank it, it checked all the boxes, right?

The whole feeling of not being good enough. Now I was, like, extra good enough. Yeah, I shared all the time on the podcast. I'm getting phone numbers. I'm easier to talk to and I'm making friends. That was always a struggle for me growing up. and then, you know, alcohol checks those boxes and you just run with it. Yes.

It helps out for a bit. So as you move forward to, like, how does this thing build, you know? I mean, for me, like in the earlier days, it was like harder to get alcohol. It was kind of like half in and half out. Right. You know, things like that. So how do things progress for you? Yeah.

I mean, they progressed really quickly. And I think because of the drugs. So we were talking before, I got into. cocaine. And that was huge in the early 80s and the late 70s. It just boomed. And so the problem with cocaine is it costs a lot of money. So when you need cocaine, you start typically getting into illegal activities to get money for cocaine. So I started getting arrests. I pulled check scams. I got into a lot of trouble with Coke dealers. So then I would promise them things. And this one story that I'll just quickly tell, I was, you know, I deferred to college because

I knew I had a drug and alcohol problem and my father famously said, oh, just go sew your wild oats, which basically meant I'm going to move to Miami and I'm going to be a waitress for a year. And meanwhile, during that time, my cocaine addiction just got really out of control. So I'm down in Miami. This is like 1977, 77, 78. I'm working out in a place called Keepes Gain. I'm doing tons of drugs, drinking. I come back in the summer, and I'm starting this kind of East Coast.

Actually, it was in Chicago College, like a preppy college. And I'm totally strung out on drugs and alcohol. So I go out there in September, what would it be, 79? and I'm doing my best, but I'm hardly going to classes. I'm drinking all the time. And I come home on Thanksgiving and the Coke dealer fronts me an ounce of Coke. And I say, look, I'll be able to pay off my debt if I take this Coke out to the college and I sell a bunch of it. And then I'll have all the money that I owed you and the money for this.

Of course, by the time I got to Chicago, half of it was gone. which sounds so strange, do you think about being on an airplane with an ounce of Coke now? But back then, you know, not that big of a deal. And so I woke up a couple of days later and the panic of, oh, my God, I owe this Coke dealer so much money. And I convinced my two roommates to quote unquote rob this bank. And basically what we did is we had a getaway. car, we stole someone's checks in our dorm. I have since made amends for this. I want you to know. And we forged them. And one of the roommates went in the front door at the bank and myself and

another roommate drove into the drive-thru in this car. And we gave the checks to the person. And I guess what happened is this teller knew the person that the check's name, the name of the checks were. So she immediately, I mean, by the way, forging checks is a federal crime. It's not a good thing. And we like take off in our car and we come around the quarter and our friends coming out of the bank with all the cash. She had actually cashed her check. We end up going on a bender that night. And basically what happened is three of our friends were arrested that night thinking they were us.

and so they were told to go back to the dorm and let us know and for us to turn ourselves in the next morning and we did that. So my father for years had a picture of me with a number nameplate in front of me to remind me that I had gotten into a lot of trouble. He was an attorney, by the way. Yeah.

I mean, you know. And this is in college. This is in college. I mean, I'm 18 years old. So already like these big, jackpots. Like that was huge because I got kicked out of college. I remember the lawyers saying like I was never allowed back in, you know, the city of Chicago. I'm not sure if that's true. But I mean, started getting into a lot of trouble. Had several arrests after that for possession, for dealing.

And ultimately really crashed and burned with the drugs. And the thing about drugs, too, is your behavior, not to get into too many details, starts getting worse and worse. because your desperation gets higher and higher. So you start doing things that you normally wouldn't think you'd be doing for drugs. And that's when I just really crashed and burned and ended up at a psych hospital in 1984. Oh, wow. So that was 84. What's going on with you as you go through these things, right?

You're getting caught for this. You're getting caught for that. At any time, are you looking at, okay, maybe there's something a little bit more going on here? You know what's the crazy thing? And when I've been listening to some of your podcasts, it's like the problem with addiction is that the quintessential component is denial. So a lot of people I listen to talk about the physical parts and, you know, the withdrawal and the tolerance levels and all that stuff. But the mental part of it is I'm going to deny that it's the booze and drugs. I'm going to literally think it's everything but that.

So we've got denial, we've got rationalization, we've got minimization, we've got romanticizing. You know, I think I'm like James Dean or whatever. Do you know what I mean? I mean, I think I'm living this kind of, you know, black leather jacket, hang out in, you know, crazy places. I'm addicted to that lifestyle. And yet I never think it's the drugs until I crash and burn. I just kept trying to figure it out, which of course, we all know from this work that the smarter you are, in fact, the smarter you are, the worse it is. And I often say that the people I've seen over the years that are the physicians, the dentists, the scientists, the blah, blah, blah, they leave saying, I've got this, Sarah. I don't really need this. And, you know, they have the worst time

getting sober because they've used their minds to solve most of their problems, but you cannot solve addiction with your mind. Just that, I mean, in my opinion, there's lots of opinions around that. But because I think so much of it are those cognitions that tell you're okay. I mean, yeah, sure, I could try to rob the bank, but then it's my roommate's fault or it's the wrong college or whatever. Yeah, the wrong checkbook. Yeah, you know what I mean?

Yeah, the wrong checkbook, right? Yeah. I'm glad you brought that up about all those other components that go into it as well, the denial part. Because, I mean, when we look back at it from here, sobriety, clarity, you can see it like, oh, my goodness, you know, where was I headed? Because I had the same way. I mean, the first time I got arrested, I was 16. I got convicted of a felony at 18. Four more felonies at 23.

And going through all of that, you know, I look back sometimes and wonder, what was I thinking? And the reality is, like you said, I was. was blaming everything else but myself. I wanted to sort of keep it alive. I also knew once, if I did give up the substances, I mean, I was into everything, cocaine, heroin, pills, the booze, everything. If I gave that up, where would that leave me? Who was I without it? Yes. So it was like that scary thing too. But yeah, there's all those other things, minimizing how bad it is. And I think, too, the people I hung out with reinforced it in one way or another. We'll all in this together. Absolutely. Everything I see around me for the most part,

outside of like my parents who aren't doing this stuff. Everybody else is wrapped up in it one way or another. You know, I got caught this time. They get caught the next time. It weirdly made sense. It does make sense. And oh, I got to tell you a funny story. And I often say it's the only illness that tells you you don't have it. Do you know what I mean? And it's the only other thing I can think of is bipolar because when you're manic, you typically don't know you're manic. But it is. It's such a killer illness. And, you know, because if it wasn't denial, we'd all say, oh, I'm drinking too much. It's caused me a few problems. I think I'll stop. But that is not the way. And I was going to tell you that I had a patient once who came in, you know, got sober from what he was telling me.

and three months into his seeing me, I said, how was your weekend? I know you had gone to this wedding. And he said, yep, I went to the wedding and I'm still sober and I had a couple of glasses of wine. And I said, oh, I said, I thought, you know, it sounded like you were still sober, but you said you drank wine. And he looks at me and he goes, Sarah, wine and beer aren't alcohol. I mean, but that's such a great example, Brad, of his thinking is that's not even alcohol. So, I mean, this is just such a, I mean, I'm not sure if you did this, but I would quit the Coke and then I would just drink this or I would quit pot and then I would just do this or I would do this. You know, you're always trying to figure it out.

What's the exact perfect formula that's going to work for me? Yeah. You know, too many times. That's the madness of it. I mean, we hear a lot of people on the show share that too, right? About like switching this or switching the time or just changing the different habits around the it's interesting. You said that about, I don't know if you've watched this show, but Landman. It's a dog. Oh, my God. I love Landman. He says, yes. He says it's just beer. Yes. It's water. I was dying. I was dying. I got a great laugh out of that. It's so good. That was such a great show, by the way. I know. I I know. So, I mean, moving here for you, I mean, that that's like a lot of the things we go through, right? Because, you know, I think people from the outside, too, at least what they told me, like, they don't have any understanding of sort of why we continue on the track we do. And I think a lot of those things you mentioned there is the way we see it, right? Denial. Yes. If we don't see the problem, then we don't have to really do much about it. But yeah, changing things up, switching up routines,

trying to, you know, make this work, make that work. And, you know, what a confusing thing I found is sometimes it worked for a little bit. Sure. It would be less disastrous or the consequences wouldn't set in right away. But like a week later or four days later, I would be right back to where I was. Yes. You know, one way or another. And I also think that, and this is part of codependency recovery too,

is just identifying feeling states to me is so critical because just like with a, I mean, codependency is not being in your body and being. and focus on everybody else's thoughts, feelings, and behaviors. And I feel like addiction is very much the same. Like, I'm not in my body necessarily having my feelings. I'm really focused externally. And so to begin to, I really think so much of underlying substance abuse is fear. And like you were talking about, the idea that I need to quit this thing that's literally

saving my life in my mind is hard. terrifying and terrifying. So what am I going to do with all those underlying feeling states of this thing that I think has been saving me is going to be gone? Yeah, it's a lot to get to know yourself over time once you get sober. Yeah. So true. Yeah, I agree with that. From what I hear just conversations with people is that becomes one of their biggest fears. I mean, for some people, if they're physically addicted, the withdrawal, you know, usually is like their immediate thing. But then after that, it's like, who am I going to be or who am I without this? Because the reality is things in our life are going to change, right? How we show up, who we hang out with. You know,

it's for me anyway, it was really unfamiliar territory. I was so used to blowing everything up. I was so used to the chaos. I was so used to always coming up short when I started to get sober and have a little bit of success. That was for me very scary place to be. And when I mean success, I don't mean like bank account success. I mean opening a bank account for me was huge. Going into a supermarket was huge. Yeah. Anything.

You're absolutely right. And I do think that's so true around if I can't be still and be with myself, what am I going to do to distract myself in recovery? Absolutely is a huge thing. And that goes to relationship and sanity and all that as well. Yes. Yeah. So where do you go from here? So we've got the bankized and kind of, where do we go? Okay, so I ended up in a hospital ironically that I ended up working in 15 years later. So there's a big psych hospital in Boston.

And I ended up going there and getting clean. And, you know, during that time, I did stay for the four weeks. And then I did go to a halfway house for three months, three to six months. And so I really did, you know, they say put your recovery first. I mean, at that time, I wasn't in a relationship. I didn't have children. I was a kid. So I really could do that at that time. And yeah, and then I just started getting jobs. I got an early sobriety job.

And then I just started feeling like, oh, my God, I really want to start learning again and going back to school. And then that's when I decided to go back to college and then decided to go to graduate school. And yeah, become a shrink. Yeah. Okay. Bring us back, though, too. Was the hospital like a voluntary thing? The hospital was a voluntary thing.

And it's really interesting because my mom, who, like I said, was an active alcoholic. I remember sitting in the intake room. And so the person says to me, you know, what's your drug of choice? And I said, alcohol and cocaine. And my mother looked at me and she said, I don't think you have an alcohol problem. I think you just have a drug problem. And to me, it was so telling because for her to acknowledge that I had an alcohol problem

would mean she might have to look at her own alcohol problem. So it was much easier for her to think of me having a cocaine problem. And I just turned around and I drink all the time. So, yeah, I mean, like you're saying, for me, the hardest thing is I was either in those first few years recovery, I was either manic or asleep. I mean, I had to be busy 24-7 working, doing meetings, doing therapy, doing group therapy, hanging out with sober people. I just had to be always busy because I literally couldn't stop unless I was exhausted because it was so hard to just be with myself, tolerate what was happening for me, look at my past, all of that stuff would be

percolating. And I had a client once who relapsed every six months. And what we finally did is we started getting to what's happening for you around five months. What do you start to feel and notice around that time? And what was happening is she was realizing around that time, she couldn't repress any more her anger and upset towards her husband, who she felt was super critical. So over and over again, she would relapse around that same time because she would be getting in touch with that. So I always think, you know, that saying relapse happens way before the relapse happens. I do believe that because I feel like if we can get in touch with what's happening for us, it might help us before we pick up again.

Yeah, I love that. When you go back to your story, though, was when you went to this hospital, like your first kind of attempt at getting sober. I mean, you had tried sort of the mixing things up before, but had you ever tried to go to meetings or get some days together? Nope. I remember a therapist told me to go to an AA meeting and I went. And when I said the words, I'm an alcoholic, I burst out sobbing and I never went back. You know, that was probably a couple of years before I actually got sober. So I just, you know, again, I was in such a progression of insanity. I mean, I told this horrible story, but this is where I was at. So this boyfriend of mine, I can't believe I'm telling you this story, but I'm going to tell you it, you still going into strip joints. And there was a woman we hung out with a friend of his was dating one of the strippers at the strip joint. And I remember going in there, this was probably six months before I got sober. Oh,

I could just almost cry telling you the story. And I'm sitting in this dark strip joint in Boston, which used to be called the Combat Zone. I don't know if you've ever heard of it. And dark, I mean, you can imagine, right? Back in the 80s, this like horrendous place. And I remember this girl, crystal coming out and me thinking at that moment, I wish I was her. So think about that for a second. And I'm sitting there and my thoughts are I feel so bad about myself and so inferior and so nothing that first of all, I have to sit next to my boyfriend watching strippers, number one. And number two, that I'm envious of her lifestyle. I mean, that's where I was. in the end, just this real self-hatred and just feeling, you know, that total emptiness inside

and that total, like, feeling of I have no idea who I am. I'm just moving in this fog from my next event to my next event to my next event, but totally out of it. And, you know, I really think the progression keeps getting worse and worse because I keep needing to get further and further away from myself. So, yeah, the darkness came, definitely. Yeah. Yeah, in all kinds of ways. Yeah. And then so you make this decision to go to this program, kind of touching back on or to this psych hospital, which is interesting.

I mean, I get the landscape at the time. It was probably different if you're looking. There's probably not the Malibu Beachfront treatment. centers at that time, right? That was sort of the avenue. I think there was Betty Ford was probably the big place and Hazleton. But this was, yeah, psych hospital. It had an addiction unit. Actually, it had an alcohol unit and a separate drug unit. We weren't even together. Alcohol and drug people were separate. Yeah. And, you know, we got the 28 days thing. What's so interesting, too, is I think back, I remember seeing the psychiatrist there,

who, by the way, I ended up dating 15 years later, but that's another story. He didn't know he had seen me. I told them on a date once. Anyways, so I'm in this psychiatrist appointment, and I had also stolen checks from my mother, because, again, when you need money for cocaine, you know, stealing is a huge thing. And so I remember him saying to me, gee, do you think you're angry at your mother because you stole her checks? And I remember saying immediately, Tim, like, angry, are you kidding? Like, I was desperate.

I needed money for cocaine. But years later, you know, of course, doing inventories and doing therapy and looking at anger and all that stuff, I'm sure I was enraged. You know, I never felt like she was present for me. I always felt like she liked my brothers better. You know, she was not available, all of that stuff. And so it's just interesting. how you can perceive your life, your history, your relationships in a certain way when you first

get sober, but then 10 years later, you can see them completely different. Yeah. Once we do some work on it, too, I'm really interested about when we talked about that denial because there's a lot of people out there, right, be listening to the show that can relate, maybe people that are still in that. Is it bad enough? How were you able to move past that denial part? What did that look like for you? Yes, you're right. I mean, I think this is a great point and you're saying it, which is you don't have to crash and burn and head a crazy bottom like I did. I mean, and oh, God, we could talk about this topic for so long. I've got to reel myself in. This whole idea of great area of drinking. So one thing that's really helpful. And this is what interventions are based on, basically. And we actually did an intervention with my own mother. And what you do is you write down. down facts. So the thing about denial, which is a defense system, is that you're basically lying to yourself. So what someone can do, and I do this also around relationships, is you list the facts. So you list facts about how you feel emotionally, how you feel psychologically,

and really get honest with yourself about what are the facts? Oh, I'm depressed half the day. or, geez, I wake up anxious and I don't know why. Or, geez, I haven't been able to stand out of the relationship for longer than three weeks or whatever. You list facts. So maybe facts that your job are, geez, I go in late in the morning once a week because I'm hung over. So it's really helpful for people who are in that kind of denial or rationalization is huge. It's my boss. It's my wife.

It's my husband. it's my kids, it's my this, it's my that. Instead of like really owning, you know, how am I being? Part of the mantra on our YouTube channel is, I am responsible. Because the fact is nobody else is making me do anything. I mean, it depends what your belief around that is. But when you list facts and when you take responsibility, it doesn't necessarily mean you have to crash your car.

You could just be really struggling in a general way with your mental health. And the old rules were, and people are probably going to hate this, but when I was in training, if you had thought to yourself once, do I need to stop drinking for a while, it's already too late. Meaning it already means you have a problem, right? Because people who are social drinkers don't think about stopping for a while. And again, people can argue.

with me around this, but I am telling you. It's like when you start dicking around and thinking, geez, I should, you know, quit for the month of January, I should quit for, you know, July, whatever, it already is telling you that you have a problem with alcohol. Now, the degree of that problem, I can't say. But yeah, I mean, I think it's, again, to me, scary to acknowledge. And then the other question is, why is it scary? What are you afraid of? You know, what are you afraid it's going to happen? Because so much of it is delusion, like I'm, you know, never going to be able to have a boyfriend. I've never, when the fact is, and I think I said this to you early on, being sober is the most magical thing I can possibly talk about. And you can't know it unless you decide,

but I will also tell you to try to start and stop. I've had clients that come in and what I say to them as if they're deciding, I say, how much would you drink if you were socially drinking and tell me what that looks like? So then they come in and they say, I'm going to have two drinks, Monday, Wednesday, Friday, three drinks on Saturday. All right. And I say, okay.

And I say list that. And then what happens 99% of the time, Brad, is they come in. And they go, okay, I had two drinks Monday, I two drinks, Wednesday. But then I had four drinks Saturday. And that's no big deal. And so what I say to them is, I reflect back the facts. So what you're saying is you could not do what you wrote down. And you've got to be very specific. Because again, like you were talking about earlier, maybe someone can do that for three weeks, but can they do it for six months? Or can they do it for a year? Like when you try to socially drink, are you really doing it? Moreover, a four ounce glass of wine is not an

18 ounce glass of wine. We're talking one four ounce glass of wine. I mean, saying to yourself or making an agreement that you're going to do something also is a factual way to look at the facts, but you can't then change it three weeks from now and say, oh, it didn't matter that I went to that wedding and I got shitfaced. No, that means you weren't able to socially drink. So that's just another tool to think about. But when you drink, you are at risk and other people are at risk. I bet people say to me, I'm just going to drink at home and they fall down a plane and stairs.

And when you're drinking, you're not safe. I mean, you can put yourself in a closed room with a TV, but still. Anyways, yeah. So I don't know. I'm getting too wild about it. No, not at all. I'm curious, too, how you were able to work through that denial of, where you were at to where you're like, okay, I'm going to plug myself into this program now.

You know what I mean? Yes. You know what the best tool for me? I mean, there's so many sayings that are helpful to people. You talk a lot about the one day at a time. You know what the best saying for me was think it through? Because I'll tell you why. Because when I would feel like drinking, so say I'd be stopped for two months.

And then I'd have this craving and I think, oh, Jesus, I got to go have a couple of of cocktails. When I said to myself, think it through, this is what would happen. I'd have a couple of cocktails. Then I'd call a Coke dealer. Then I'd run out of money. Then I'd be going to do some behavior to get money. And then I'd wake up three days from now in some stranger's apartment and be broke and God knows what else. So I so knew the facts of what would happen to me when I drank, that that really helped me. So maybe someone isn't going to wake up in a stranger's apartment three weeks from now, but you might do something else.

You might be depressed. You might forget to pick your kid up at school. You might, like, there's something, you know, because you're right. There has to be, it's like motivational interviewing. There has to be certain benefits to you stopping. But you really need to be honest with yourself about what that. is and what are the consequences. And sometimes because we're addicts, I can lie to myself about anything sober or not. I mean, that's just part of addiction. Yeah, we have to be honest about the

impact on our life. I think a lot of us struggle in that spot. I think a lot of us struggle and maybe earlier on too. I mean, what you're mentioning there about the social drinker, I'm just like, man, that is so foreign to me as opposed to, you know, how I drank. It's me, you know, but I see it all the time with people around me, right? Like I shared before, I have family for Christmas. They have a couple of sips of wine. They're sleeping on the couch. I'm like, okay. For me, I don't get it. That's really weird. And it's like they go on with their life and they're not worried about it. Like me, when I was drinking, I was just counting down for it would be time to drink. And I just could wait for the weekend for just to maybe scale it back. If we can get going at 12 and say

we're watching football, quote unquote. You know, that was great. Everybody's watching football. I'm just getting started. But it's about that part of being honest with this. And I like how you mentioned there too, like the facts. Like, how is drinking impacting my life? I think a lot of us want to look at it. How much am I drinking? How many days a week am I drinking?

Like, we want those to be red flags, but there could be other things about how we feel about our drinking and what impact it's having in our relationships, too. It's not just like those rock bottom things we see in the movie. No. And the other thing to say is, so, addiction is an obsessive, compulsive illness, right? So this is the thing. You may be able to stop the compulsion by drinking two drinks on Monday and two drinks on Thursday, but I'm going to tell you something, you're going to be thinking about those freaking drinks on Thursday from Monday to

Thursday. It's not just affecting us if we're drinking on Monday at Thursday because our minds are totally preoccupied with drinking. So yeah, you can try to socially drink. You can try to have this whole schedule. I've had clients of an entire month. But guess what they're doing 99% of the time? Thinking about drinking or not drinking. That's the thing.

When you just stop, that's gone. You don't have to think about it. So the obsession is just as damaging. And don't forget that. I mean, the obsessive thinking, yeah, is that's a killer. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of people talk about it. What do they say? They say, I was either drinking, thinking about drinking or planning when to be drinking next. You know, it's like that all around that just, you know, one way or another, it's a part of what's going on, right? It's a lot of time.

And you're right. I mean, once you stop doing it and a lot of people ask, you probably got this a million times working with people, right? When's this going to go away? And it does. It goes away and you don't like it's, for me, it's so small. Maybe I'll be watching a football game and I You see a commercial or something, but I'm not like having my morning coffee worrying about, you know, drinking. It doesn't occupy the time in my life anymore. That's right. That's right. And it does pass.

Yeah. Everything passes. And to me, if you're still obsessing about drinking at four months or to me, it goes back to that underlying causes and conditions. Then is there a trauma there that you're having flashbacks about, you know, say you've been abused in some. like, do you have a depression that's not being treated? Are you chronically anxious and you're not sure why? You know, that could be rage. You know, I mean, there's so many different pieces, but really try to talk to someone at whatever support you get. I mean, you know, this disease wants to get you alone. We hear that all the time. If I'm stuck in my own head, I'm screwed.

And the whole fear thing, too, I really believe that so much of the personality, of most human beings, I will say, not just addicts, is that self-centered fear where I'm thinking about myself, I'm worried about myself, I'm wondering what you're thinking about myself. And unless I can get out of that and share with someone or talk to someone about what's going on in my mind, I can't get solutions. Because again, my mind is going to only use what I know. And, you know, that's what got me here, basically. Yeah, I know. My best thinking ended me up where I ended up. Moving forward there.

I mean, you mentioned going back to school and stuff, walk us through. I mean, when you initially start this new journey of sobriety to, you know, what does that look like feel? And how do you move forward there? Because it's been, what, 40? 41 years this Thursday. Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, I'm telling you, I know that sounds like a long time to people, but I remember being at a meeting and someone getting their six months chip and thinking, I'm never going to get six months. I mean, like Brad talks about one day at a time, I mean, it's not just a bright. It's just living your life. When you stop thinking about, you know, I'm just going to tell you one of the thing about the getting your life back and you were saying how people wonder what's going to change. I had a client to quit drinking, quit an all, heroin, but could not put pot down. And so I had seen her for a few years getting off those other drugs. And, you know, was her life okay? Yeah.

She had a good job. She had a relationship. But she just wasn't growing. And finally I said to her, I said, look, I love you. I feel like I'm enabling you at this point. You're showing up your stone. Like, it's not going anywhere anymore. Like, you either go to treatment and get off the pot or, you know, maybe find another therapist.

And I am telling you, that girl got off the pot. And her life is freaking taken off. So I'm just saying, can't life be okay? Yeah. But can you really be living like this life of, you know, that you dreamed of meeting your goals, doing what you want, living a life you love all that stuff? I don't think it can be possible when you're muting everything with pot. Okay, so I went on a tangent.

Sorry about that. But going back to school, yeah, I mean, going back to school, I just, you know, I got really into psychology and sociology and started thinking about what am I going to do with my life. And at first I thought I was going to be a social worker. And then I remember talking to my oldest brother. And I said, geez, at the time, by the way, I'm in my 30s. And because I went back late, right? And he said, look, you're going to be 40 one way or the other. Why not be 40 with a PhD? And I thought, okay. So I said, then, all right, screw it. I'm going to go. So that's how I ended up getting into a doctorate program.

It is still, you know, there's been different periods in my recovery. Obviously, it have been harder than others. And it is just being a human being on the planet and knowing how to get through things. I'm sure people talk about deaths, grief, losses, you know, struggles, anxiety, all that stuff. And a lot of that is just being a human being on the planet. But for us, it's being a human on the planet. without picking up something to take it away, you know, to take the feeling away. So yeah, I ended up getting a doctor degree in psychology. And what's so funny, I was telling some of this story the other day is I remember being in that program. And I first moved to California.

And, of course, I was in like a, you know, a 12-step program. So I started going to meetings. And I started dating this guy with that had just gotten out of prison, of course, and had tattoos like all over him. And I remember being in this therapy class. And the teacher said, hey, like, who would want to volunteer to be a client? And I volunteered to be a client. And I started talking to my fellow therapy person in front of the class about this guy, Randy, who I was having struggles with because he had just gotten out of prison. And I remember the look on my professor's face, what is this girl doing in this PhD program, you know? And he just said to me afterwards, he said,

many people do many different things to cope with transitioning, you know, transitioning to California, transitioning to not knowing anyone. And one of my favorite psychological terms now, which your audience might like, and it's a good thing to remember, is regression in the face of transition. So whenever you are having a transition, I think it was, started with kids and divorced homes and they'd go back and forth. But it could have started way earlier if someone knows where it started. But it is very common when you have a transition, whether it's coming home from work or coming home from being away for a month or a transition after a relationship. We often regress to old coping skills. Just remember that in case you're

ever going through some. Yeah. It rings true. I just going through all the scenarios there. picking up the kids from the bus stop. You know, I have to make sure I eat before I go. Yes. To simplify all of it. But yeah, that makes a ton of sense. So you went there, so you do that. And then what are your first jobs?

What do you? You said you worked at that hospital too. So I ended up. Yeah. So it's so funny because I ended up. So that was in California. I moved home to Boston. And where do I get a job at the psych hospital that I was in?

Yeah. On the same unit. Is it still there? Yeah. McLean Hospital. It's very well known. It's in a town called Belmont. Now they have a bunch of satellite hospitals because of the nature of hospitals these days. But yeah, it's still there. And that's where I started my career here. And yeah. And then I, you know, got trained there and worked in a new

residential we opened and then just had a practice for the last 30 years. And the reason I got into kind of codependency recovery, I'm not sure if you know this, When did that happen? When did that shift? I got married 1999. I got married when I was 40. So I waited a really long time. I got married at 40. I had a child at 41. I have one son. He's going to be 23 tomorrow, actually. And so being in relationships, and you know this, they are not easy, especially if we grew up in some type of insanity. And what happens is we get really lost around what is our issue, what is their issue, what's a priority, identifying our feeling states, identifying when we're angry, being able to say no, being able to express a need. I mean, we could do a whole talk on this. So when I started that relationship, I started going to, you know, support for codependency and living with an addict. He was sober. Both my husbands are sober. And so he and I often say it was the shortest marriage in history because looking back, really, and I hate to

even say this, I got married because I think I was afraid that I wasn't going to have a child. And so looking back, I was dating him. And he's still in my life. He's my son's dad. But I think when we have fear, I think we do behaviors that were not. I wasn't even aware of that until years later in a therapy session. Because we didn't have anything in common, but we both, you know, but we fell in love, got married and had a child. And then the minute he was born, our relationship imploded. So I asked his dad to leave when my son was six months old. And he's been a great dad, and we have co-parented. So I was starting to do work in, you know, Alon and Coda. And I had read all the books from the 80s on adult children and all that stuff. But what ended up happening is I got

married a second time in the early 80s to a guy that had 15 years of recovery. And he relapsed on opiates. And what happened to me is I realized that here I was, I have a doctor degree. I'm working at a great hospital. I work with addiction. I see addicts all day long. I've gone to Alanon. I've gone to AA. I've done every seminar known to man around self-help. And I'm imploding. And I thought, if I can't handle this, then how is the average human being dealing with living with an addict? Do you know what I'm saying? I had all the experience. I had all the groups. I had everything. and it was still super challenging. So I asked him to leave within a couple of years of his trying to get sober.

And then I ended up getting back into my own therapy and writing this book on codependency and all this stuff because I really thought, wow, relationships in general people struggle with, but relationships with addicts, people don't know how to handle it. And there's lots of different opinions, obviously. But where I wrote the book from is this is that I'm responsible. And what I was doing in that relationship was not helping the person. And all of a sudden I realized that it's this big lie. It's the lie that I'm trying to save him when really I'm trying to control him.

And the reason I'm trying to control him is because I'm full of terror. And the result is both people go down. The addict goes down and the person trying to save the attic goes down. So that's my long story into like my codependent crazies. And I think recovery from just all that stuff and relationship stuff is so important for people in recovery. Because I think our old childhood stuff gets played out in our relationships over and over again. Yeah, thanks for sharing that. gives a great context for, you know, writing the book and everything, too. And I mean,

we hear it all the time. I get messages from people who they're looking for other ways or different ways to support their loved ones, listen to the show and maybe get a different understanding or have an idea of what's going on and what things are like. But I think on the flip side, too, it also can bring some hope, right, to hear, you know, maybe a story of somebody that's like, oh, yeah, that's like my loved one and how they are. But then they turn it. it around. So it came from your own, this is what I got from it anyway. It came from your own personal sort of experience too where you're in this spot that you weren't necessarily expecting to be. And now you're overwhelmed and up against this big challenge and unsure of where to go with it.

So looking from that perspective too. And the problem is we don't like the answer. Because, you know, like me and you want the piece of the person. Meaning, if I'm seeing it, a couple and one person's an alcoholic and one person isn't, what it'll happen is they'll come in and the person that's not the alcoholic will do all the asking of all the questions. When are you going to change them? When are you going to help them? Are you going to help them get sober? How's he going to get sober? And the answer is both people have to focus on their own issues. But most co-addicts don't want to hear that. What they want to hear is they're going to get sober. And if I bug them enough, and I give them enough names to therapists.

And if I tell them to go to AA and if I get angrier, blah, blah, blah, they're going to do what I want. And really the answer is to completely pull it back, figure out what you need and want. And the better you get, which I know this sounds like Fantasyland, the better you get, the more hope your partner has. And when you can start to set limits with your partner and express what you need in a loving way, that's really the best thing you can do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

That makes a lot of sense. It really does. So going through, like when you first meet with people, too, I mean, what do you think about sort of this statement? People are going to change when they want to, like when they want to do the work, especially in those situations where other people want people to change. I mean, what was that like for you? And what, what have you seen over, what, 30 years or something you said? Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, yes, people change. change when they want, and we can influence their motivation. And that's the distinction. You can have a couple where someone is really angry, which very often happens. Part of a co-addict behaviors is control and domination and constantly bugging and all that stuff. And they get their own anxiety, their own depression. And I lost my train of thought. So, What happens is, you know, they come in and the person really doesn't want to get sober. Now, because now they're just getting angry and angry at their partner. That's a lot different than saying, honey, I totally love you.

You are the light of my life. I can't have you drinking in the house anymore. So if you can't stop in the next couple of weeks and go to treatment, then you're going to have to leave the home and I'm going to have to stay with the kids. And if you can't leave the home, then I'll get another place for a little while until you can do that and just know I love you and I support you. That's the bottom line of what people don't want to do. People don't want to set the hard boundary. And a lot of times the reason they don't want to set a hard boundary, especially parents with kids, is they think their kids are going to die. And the fact is they might. You know, that's the

thing. You know, I've had parents say, I can't kick them out. I can't kick them out. I can't kick them out because then they're going to die. And you know what? Then they find them dead in their basement. So the delusion is, I'm controlling your use by my behavior. And that's fantasy land. I call it fantasy land. You're not controlling anything. And the best thing you can do is get your own help and really love the person, but set limits in simple. I'm setting like a simple terms, but. Yeah. No, it makes a ton of sense. So, wrapping things up here. Is there anything else you want to share with us before we sign off? Yeah, I mean, I just want to say that recovery is possible and hopefully I haven't been too

dark and intense. But the thing is, you know, this is a killer illness. And we've known plenty of people that don't make it. And the other thing is around this like deciding whether you're going to stop or not, what I would do is stop for a period of time. Take out the, the whole decision-making process. Just say, I'm going to do it for a year and see what happens. Do you know what I mean? Instead of, you know, dilly-dallying around it, because until I fully stopped and until clients of mine fully stopped, you know, life doesn't have. But so I don't know, it's like you can get sober. You can also influence someone else getting sober. And it is a life second and none. And I just want to live in the beauty and the joy and the peace.

and the acceptance and all of it. You know, because addiction, this is the thing. One thing I do know, this last thing I'll say, it doesn't get better. If you have a drinking problem or a drug problem, 99.9% chance it's going to get worse. So you might as well do something different. Yeah, it's that question that I pose sometimes,

if not now, when? If we're not willing to do it now, what, really, what are we waiting for? Are all the stars going to all of a sudden line up? I don't know, maybe, but probably not. It's probably not just going to be, you know, it was so interesting. I did so many things to get sober, right? Rehab for 12 months, jail, another rehab, detox, this, that, meetings, blah, blah, blah, everything.

Yes. I woke up one day. I just woke up one day. And that was it. It wasn't after meeting. It wasn't after anything else. I just said. And I don't credit it completely to that one day.

I credit it to all of the other days. Yeah. All of the other days of just. Just being a little bit honest here, being a little bit honest there and a little bit, and just getting that little glimpse of this is not going to end well. This is a really slippery slope that I'm on. And, yeah, I just said, you know, I was just give it one more, one more try. And the next day, that's how it started.

It wasn't, it wasn't this parting of the seas. And it was like, oh, my gosh, here we go. It was just putting days together and just realizing, too, like you mentioned, it just, I already tried all the other ways. and I just, my life was not getting better. It was progressively getting worse over time. Great chance. And it's also, yes, it's such a good chat.

And the thing to remember, too, is that short-term pain for long-term gain. I mean, that's the other thing. If you can tolerate the beginning and just tolerate some stuff for a while, the gain is so huge. I mean, the fear makes you put it off and put it off and put it off. But literally, it's like delayed gratification. You know what I mean? Yeah. So give it a shot.

Yeah. You're such a great example, too. Yeah, lots of upside to this way of things. Thank you again for jumping on and sharing your story with us. It was so great meeting you. Thanks, Pratt. Thank you. Well, there it is everyone.

Another incredible episode. Thank you, Sarah, so much for jumping on the podcast and sharing your story with all of us. If you missed it at the beginning, here is your invite. Come and join us at the Subur Motivation Community. I'll drop the link to join the community down on the show notes below. grab your free 30-day trial. Community connection makes all the difference when living a life, alcohol-free. You're not alone.

You don't have to do it alone. There's a lot of us out there who have similar stories. And we're here to support you. We're here to help you. To cheer you on. And we hope that you'll do the same for us. So if you're interested in joining the community, or if you have any questions, send me a message over on Instagram. I'll get right back to you.

And I'll drop Sarah's information. as well to contact her down in the show notes below, and I'll see you on the next one.