Sober Motivation: Sharing Sobriety Stories - Andy Ramage: The Middle Lane to Alcohol-Free Living (Gray Area Drinking)

Episode Date: December 21, 2023

Andy Ramage had the boyhood dream to be a professional footballer and although that did come true his playing career was cut short due to an injury.  As he grew older he noticed alcohol playing a bigger and bigger role in his life. At first, Andy began exploring areas of his life he would like to change but was not getting the results he wanted.  The last rock he lifted and explored was saying goodbye to alcohol. Andy discovered he was in the middle lane of the drinking spectrum, not an alcoholic but not a non-drinker. With 10+ years of alcohol-free living, Andy shares his story on the Sober Motivation podcast. ------------ 📲 Follow Andy on Instagram here: https://www.instagram.com/andyramageofficial/ 👉 More information on SoberLink: www.soberlink.com/recover 👉 Grab Charmaine's ‘Delicious & Doable ~ Recipes For Real and Everyday Life’ Cookbook: 👇 https://www.amazon.ca/Delicious-Doable-Recipes-Real-Everyday/dp/1989304559 👉 Check out the Sober Motivation Shop: Click HERE

Welcome back to season three of the Suburmotivation podcast. Join me, Brad, each week as my guests and I share incredible and powerful sobriety stories. We are here to show sobriety as possible, one story at a time. Let's go. The holiday season can be particularly challenging for those in early recovery. Andy had the boyhood dream to be a professional footballer. And although that did come true, his playing career was cut short due to an injury. As he grew older, he noticed out called playing a bigger and bigger

role in his life. At first, Andy began exploring areas of his life he would like to change, but was not getting the results he wanted. The last rock he lifted and explored was saying goodbye to alcohol. Andy discovered he was in the middle lane of the drinking spectrum, not an alcoholic, but not a non-drinker. With 10-plus years of alcohol-free living, Andy shares his story on the Supermotivation podcast. With increased social drinking parties and family gatherings, triggers are everywhere. Soberlink is a high-tech breathalyzer device designed to keep you on track. Devices are remote so you can take it with you on the go and scheduled tests mean there are no surprises. During each test, Soberlink's facial recognition technology verifies your identity,

ensuring the correct person is testing. Your test results are then sent instantly to contacts you've chosen, helping you rebuild trust and stay committed to your sobriety throughout the busy season. Stay sober and rebuild trust this season with Soberlink. Visit Soberlink.com slash recover to sign up and receive $50 off your device today. And I have to give another huge shout out to our new other sponsor. Charmaine cooking show hosts an author of delicious and doable recipes for real and everyday life. Charmaine prides herself on living a drug and alcohol-free lifestyle and she's also a huge fan of the Sobermotivation podcast. So if you're hungry for fun, delicious, and doable dishes,

Charmaine's collection of over 70 mouthwatering recipes will be sure to please your hungry gang. Pumpkin muffins with coconut crumble toppings, lemon walnut tuna melts, cranberry turkey burgers with sweet horseradish mayo, and grilled chocolate sandwiches are just a few of the fabulous and flavorful dishes you will enjoy preparing and devouring with ease. Check out Charmaine's cookbook today.

I'll drop the link in the show notes below, to the Amazon listing. I just got my cookbook in the mail, and I can't wait for some time over the holidays to put a few things together. Let's go. How's it going, everyone, Brad here? Before we jump into this episode,

I want to wish all of you a happy holidays and a Merry Christmas. I really hope you enjoy yourselves. I hope you're able to remain sober. Be sure to have a plan going into the holidays. If you haven't checked out the holiday special episode yet, I really, really encourage you to go back a few shows and check that out where I had four other people joined me for that special episode.

Look, if you want to get me something for Christmas, and I'm not asking for much, but just leave a review for the show. Let people know what you think of it if it's helped you out at all this year. It's been an incredible year in life, and for this podcast, we've done over a hundred stories. And I can't thank all of you enough for just being, a part of it for messaging the guests, letting them know you appreciate them coming on here to share

their story because it's not the easiest thing in the world to do. Now let's get the Andy's show. Welcome back everyone to another episode of the Sober Motivation podcast. Today we've got Andy with us. Andy, how are you? Very good, my man. Excited for this conversation. Yeah, perfect. Me too. Thank you so much for being willing to share your story here on the podcast. Absolutely thrilled. And what you're doing is wonderful work, my man. So yeah, delight to be here. Thank you. So what was it like for you growing up? I think I had one of those very typical childhoods. I grew up in East London, which was very blue collar environment. And I loved it. It was all about my BMX bike, my brothers, football,

soccer, best way to describe that. And yeah, for me, I had a pretty good childhood. I was the sort of typical, sporty kid that grew up out on the streets, enjoying myself. And yeah, I got to say, I had a really good childhood. incredible. What was school and stuff like for you? So for me, I went to a little school in a place called Dagnum, a small school, Catholic school, again, very working class, let's say. And I loved it. We played football or soccer. That's all I did. It was a time when we actually had laces in the balls. Imagine that. So it was a soccer ball and it was so old. It actually had laces in it. They used to put laces in the soccer ball. So imagine heading that thing

with laces. It was tough. But again, it was a soccer ball. But again, it was. It was a real, I found it a wonderful place to grow up in. I was very fortunate. The mom and dad were around two brothers that I adore, and our life was just very much played outside on the streets. And for me, soccer was a huge part of my life. Beautiful. I love that.

You played soccer after and everything. Tell us about all that. Yeah. So from the age of 10, I signed with a professional club, as you do over here, Leighton Orient, a lower league club. So my path was very much mapped out. from a very young age to be a footballer. And I've fallen into that very fixed mindset with football. I thought I was this God-given talent that was genetically endowed with these physical

abilities to be good at sport. And invariably, I was good at lots of sports. But that fixed mindset, I think, can be very rigid at times. And I had to learn to adapt and adjust that because age 16. So I left school really early to go and become a professional footballer. And I realized, actually, I wasn't that good. I've been playing rugby more than football. And that really caused me to reflect on my own mindset and realize that I was so far behind most of the other boys in this instance and the men because you were frown in with the men. I had to think differently. So I started to do something that no soccer player had ever done. I started to read a lot self-help and self-development books from a really young age actually and biographies of great players and I learned a lot

through that process. And one of the big lands was that actually behind all of this so-called natural talent is actually years and years of hard work, of hard graft. No one was gaming the system. Everyone that looked majestic on that soccer field had years and years of deliberate practice behind them. So that, even though it helped me in those early days in the soccer field, helped me in life and it still does today. Yeah, no, so much truth to that.

I can see it. What does it look like for you? Like I know here in Canada, it's a big thing for at 16 when you go and you're starting that maybe on your way to professional journey, you move away from home. Was that your experience? I was able to stay at home, which was fortunate. But what was my experience was it was brutal, professional sport is brutal. And I'll leapfrog a bit now, but I now coach and train and mentor many brilliant athletes. I work with the Professional Football's Association in the last two months. I've probably trained and coached 100 top premiership level, international level,

athletes, because actually for many of them, they faced the same issue that I did. I got released and rejected at 18. So I was with that club from the age of 10 to I was 18, and it was like the X factor. At that point, you had to queue up outside the manager's office and you either walked in that. Rumman, your dreams were made or they were shattered. Mine was shattered. They were broken.

It was brutal. I was thrown out into the streets with my meaning and purpose got, but I didn't give up. Don't get me wrong. There were a few days where I really wrestled and struggled. But then I managed to find another club that took me on a professional basis and played in the professional league and I scored in the professional league, which was my boyhood dream. But that experience very early on in my life of total rejection, of total loss, actually on reflection was probably one of the best lessons I ever learned. And I think it served me for the rest of my life. And I'm thinking, too, when you're younger too, might not have all the skills to go into a situation.

like that or at any time if that's the one thing you're working towards to be a professional soccer player football player and then that's taken away from you there that's a very tough transition or very tough spot to be right yeah and the average age of a professional soccer player is just retirement age is just 27 so they're all going through it right in their own way that loss of self that loss of purpose that loss of meaning it's a pretty brutal time and that's why we see it and you'll see it in all Canadian sports, American sports, the same things. Many of our athletes, depression, bankruptcy, divorce within the first few years after their career finishes. That's why I actually do a lot of work with professional athletes now working on exactly that. We train them

in advance of their career finishing to get really excited about what they might do after their playing days come to an end because it's a massive gap with athletes. It doesn't exist. So whilst I do all this lovely stuff in the alcohol free space, which is my real book, big story. I still do a lot of work with great athletes and I feel very grateful for that. Yeah, that's incredible. Yeah, I think we've all seen those stories, those documentaries of stuff. When was the first time you started drinking? So that was age 13. That was very typical of the environment that I grew up in. And for me, why did I drink? All my friends did it. All our parents did it. It's what we did as kids, right? It was get your hands on some alcohol and then

that kickstarted the night. But I think I was particularly drawn to alcohol because I was quite shy. I'm quite introverted. I was the ginger kid that found this elixir that when I had a drink, it was easy to talk to girls. And for me at 13, outside of football, all I really cared about was meeting girls and all the things that you do as a teenage kid. And I found this liquid that I could consume. And then as if by magic, a lot of that fear, a lot of that emotional anxiety and pain would just vanish. And for my young brain, that was rocket fuel. I'm sure at that very early age, a real deep habitual link between what is the trigger, emotional discomfort, I drink alcohol, the routine, and the reward I get is that discomfort goes away and I can talk to girls.

So I think my young teenage brain made a real deep habit of that. And I think I kept playing that habit for the next 20 years without questioning it, even though I didn't need to drink to be able to talk to girls and happily married and all those things. But I think very often that's in a lot of people's story. We make this deep subconscious link or habitual behavior somewhere in our teens or childhood or like early 20s. And then we just keep repeating that pattern over and over again. Where it once served us, and I can't deny it didn't serve me because it did, we're stuck with something that no longer serves us unless we become conscious of it again.

Yeah, you answered the question I was going to ask, was that a conscious connection? And you answered there that it wasn't for you because I think that's definitely my story too. It just removed those insecurities, obviously temporarily, but it was worth it at the time to maybe feel like crap the next day or maybe get in a little bit of trouble to just feel the effects of alcohol and the feel of fitting in and having a little bit maybe more. We hear liquid courage, right, to maybe have a little bit more courage because I was relatively shy and everything as well. And I think a lot of people, you're right. We have that connection and we do have it serve us for a point in time. There's not too many people that I've heard. It didn't serve some sort of purpose.

And I think a lot of people, too, maybe when they start out this journey, struggled to really connect the dots on that. But just being honest with ourselves, I think we can get a perspective on why did we get hooked into it. Yeah, and I think we have to honor the wisdom of the behavior at times. And I think that is really important. There was wisdom for me in that behavior. It made sense when I was 13 and didn't really know how to socially handle my. myself and was feeling those psychological sensations of discomfort because I was quite introverted

and didn't really know how to speak to girls. Whatever way we dress it up, there was wisdom in that behaviour. I consumed that alcohol and that problem essentially vanished. But like you say, that eventually started to not serve me anymore. And I think we have to really honour that for everyone that's ever had any sort of dysfunctional relationship with alcohol. There was probably a moment in time when it made perfect sense. It just doesn't necessarily make sense. sense for you anymore. And I think that's the important bit to become aware of that. And from that awareness comes the ability to make change. So true. So where do you go? So you start out with this other football team. And how does your drinking look throughout after 13, all the way up to 18, 19?

Yeah, nothing exceptional, especially when I started playing professional football. There wasn't really time for it. Yes, we'd all go out on a Saturday. It was definitely a part of our life. But it wasn't anything that was really happening midweek at all because we just wouldn't do that. We were too professional for that, but it was a big part of that culture back then, 25, whatever it was. 30 years ago, drinking was a big part of all sports, especially football. So it was still on the radar, but not in a huge way. But what happened next was just as my career was getting really exciting, age 20, and playing and fulfilling that boyhood dream, I got injured and then vult. Again, that was two years later, now it's taken away from me. And I'm never getting it back

because it's not about moving clubs anymore. It's about my body just can't serve me in that way anymore. So once again, found myself lost and without meaning and out without purpose. Only this time I knew this was a permanent thing. So for me, the shackles were off. There was no more games on a Saturday so I could go out whenever I wanted, but it still didn't escalate to ridiculous levels, but it definitely leveled up a little bit from there. But like most young 20-year-olds, I was out all the time. Was I drinking more than any of my peers? Not really, but were we drinking too much? Absolutely, because, you know, who isn't in many social circles? And that was certainly me. So, yeah, it started to pick up some momentum. I then went to travel the world with my now

lovely wife, Tara, and we went all around the world. And I didn't actually arrive back to London until I was about 28 years old. And I just had quite a good time. I got her a minute. I'm owning every bit of it through that process. Traveled the world. and met some really interesting people and did some really interesting things. And then I fell into the world of Broking, which is the guys in the bright jackets that scream and shout at one another. You've probably seen them on the TV or the clips. And that's a whole new story, right?

That's a different world altogether because that is a really social world to be in. Yeah. So you traveled all over the world from 20 to 28. Yeah. It really cool. I spent a lot of time in Ireland, which I loved. I played some football out there, but my career was effectively finished,

fell in love with Ireland, fell in love with the Irish people, fell in love of an Irish girl, who I'm now married to, my best friends and mates are out there. And of course, that was quite a boozy time, let's say, in that environment. And then we went off to Australia.

We lived in Australia for a long while and various trips around the world. And it was a really beautiful time for me. Was that drinking escalating? Yeah. Yes, it was. Was it a problem at that stage? Absolutely not.

I was totally functional in every, single which way. It wasn't really until the broken that it started to escalate a bit. But again, in my story, there is no rock bottom. There is no addiction as I see it. I was a middle lane drinker. I'll get to that in a minute. But that's really important. That's in my story. Because I think it's slightly different from other people's story. And I think sometimes it's important to hear that, that you can still get the most incredible, beautiful results by stepping out of that drinking adventure before it becomes something that is majorly problematic, let's say. So many interesting topics that you just shared on there.

The one that intrigues me is the middle lane drinker. I'll be honest, though, with you is I think it's really hard for people that might consider themselves gray area, middle lane. Not a problem, not struggling with addiction, not waking up to it, not really experiencing a ton of consequences. I think that's a really tough spot to be because we can easily convince ourselves if I don't look like that or I'm not experiencing that. why would I give it up? How did you come to that place? What was it for you that made you just reconsider your whole relationship with alcohol? Yeah, and just before I get into that, even just to highlight a point you made there, because it's a beautiful one that the people that I'm most concerned about are the people in the middle lane. Now, that doesn't seem right

on the face of it, but what I mean by that is, as you described, when someone's got a full-blown addiction dependency, they've bounced off something that feels like a rock bottom. them, they are blissfully aware that their relationship with alcohol, drugs, or whatever, it is dysfunctional. But those in the middle lane, sometimes they never wake up. They never realize that actually those few drinks in the night and in the midweek and a few more at the weekend are the things that are destroying their health, their consistency that's making them a bit grumpy, that's stealing their ambition, their looks, and they keep churning

the gears year after year, decade after decade. So for me, that's why I'm so honored that you brought me on here, and it's great to share a slightly different message around that middle lane. So for me, what woke me up was my mid-30s woke me up. I achieved in some ways that traditional success. I've been a broker for about 10 years, and in that space achieved somewhat success by the yardstick of monetary income. And I thought that was it. I thought that's all you needed to do. I'd be working really hard to reach that place, and I thought, then I'd be blissfully

happy for the rest of my days. How's that going for everyone? Not very well by the looks of it. And it certainly wasn't for me because then I woke up in my late 30s and went, hold on, I've achieved everything I've been working for in terms of money because I thought that was it. You just earn enough money. Then you're happy. Only I'm not happy. I'm 42 pounds heavier than I used to be. My body fats just jump right up to 35%. I have an exercise probably in the best part of 12 or 15 years. I'm unmotivated. I'm stressed all the time. I look haggard all the time. My relationships at home are a little bit strained.

Actually, life just feels a bit shite for want of a better word. And it was a real awakening. And what I did, I looked around that industry, that those people more successful than me, buy that yardstick of money, effectively. And I realized that most of them looked horrific. Broken bodies, broken minds, addictions, depressions, numerous divorces, estranged children, like all of that. And I just thought, what are we all doing?

What, how can that be? I thought you earned enough money and then all that stuff was magical. And actually, I looked like devastation to me. So it woke me up. And of course, I did what most people do in the middle lane. I tried everything apart from taking a break from alcohol. I started to exercise and I was inconsistent with that. I started to try and eat. bit more healthily, of course I was inconsistent with that because hangovers would get in the way. I tried meditation, but I was too anxious through the hangovers to meditate. The last rock that I lifted was the alcohol rock because I think so many adults, that was a given, do you know what I mean? You can go and try and fix exercise and nutrition and all that stuff.

You don't even question the alcohol one. That was the last thing. I ever questioned. It was how I celebrated, how I commiserated, how I did business. is as a broker, how I've met my best friend, how I've met my wife. So the thoughts of taking that away scared the life out of me in truth. But there was that gradual awakening of, I wonder, is it alcohol? I wonder, is it alcohol that's causing my now anxiety? I wonder, is it alcohol that's making me unbelievably inconsistent in the way I exercise, in the way I nourish my body, in the way I show up in the office? And eventually, more out of desperation than beautiful insight, I thought I'd lift that rock and maybe try and take a break from alcohol to see what

that felt like. And that was the real start of the next part of my adventure in many ways. So many incredible points there too, right? Is that we do often try to do everything but removing the alcohol. Everything but that because like you mentioned, I've heard it so many times. It's just connected to every aspect of our life. It becomes the identity becomes for the good days, the bad days, the celebrations, to get through stuff to connect with other people and it just becomes ingrained in that sense. Yeah, it's so powerful. And then even in my role as a broker, I was that guy. So if you wanted fun effectively, which involved drinking with me, I would take you out. We could go to the nice restaurants, we could go to the best clubs. That was my USP.

Do you know what I mean? It was like, you want a good time. I'm going to take you out. And that was part of the job. We had the magic credit card that would pay for anything and everything. And that's historically how we did business. So it was very much not only wrapped up in my own identity, but in the way that I actually generated income for myself and my family. So to question that, felt like heresy. Do you know what I mean? Ever in that industry had proactively decided or willingly decided to take a break from alcohol. Yes, there were a few that were forced into that change. Otherwise, it might have led them on a path of complete destruction. But I was probably the first person within that industry that willingly said, no, I think I'm going to take a

proactive break from this stuff. And genuinely, I was so scared because humans are so scared of change. W.8 Jordan, the brilliant English poet has a lovely line that I like. And it goes like this, we would rather die in our dread than change. It's so powerful. And it's so true, isn't it? People get so stuck because they're so fear of what change might look like. And for me, I was fearful that my wife might leave me, is the truth. I thought she might think I was boring. Would my career completely implode and I'd be out on the streets because I wanted to make this proactive choice around taking a break from alcohol? Would my mates disown me? But my biggest fear, and this is a true, my biggest fear was this. How the hell was I going to dance at weddings?

It's impossible. I was going to be like impossible for me, dancing at a wedding without, about eight pints of sort of alcohol to get me in the swing of, like, I was going to do that. So you can imagine that momentum behind me was really trying to get me to stop to change. And actually then something else happened that was powerful. I got to about 28 days and I've been wrestling and I've been stopping and starting. I had a rubber arm that was very easy to twist by colleagues and friends and family. I was convinced there was something in this for me. And I got to 28 days.

That was all it took for me. and my life started to change. Slept like I'd never slept before. That time came bouncing back. Energy that was always there, that beautiful energy that I always had came flooding back. I felt good again. I wasn't grumpy and labored and tired. And I woke up on a Saturday morning.

The sun was shining. My wife was on top form. Kids were on top form. And I was like, I want more of this. I don't want this just on the odd Sunday. I want this every single day. At about that time, one of my big mentors in the industry, said to me, you're 28 days into this now pretty much. When you're going to stop, I come back to

drink him, because I think if you continue to not drink, your career's over, mate. No one's going to want to do business with a broker that doesn't drink, and you're that guy. So imagine the social pressure of that. But I just experienced enough, and that's why I spend so much time now trying to inspire people even just to take a break to get that experience. I just experienced enough wins to think, I don't actually care what you say. There's something in this for me. I'm going to keep going. That's so true.

Was there something externally that inspired you? Any experience with anyone else going alcohol free? Absolutely not. No one. I felt very alone. They didn't feel like there was anything for someone like me. There was the classic of obviously the beautiful recovery programs of the 12th step and the AA. That absolutely wasn't right for me where I was at.

That felt like it was the only option available to me. And then outside of that, there was nothing. By the way, and this is 10 years ago. So I'll be 10 years, alcohol-free pretty soon, actually, which is cool. So there was nothing there. I was all alone, it felt. Of course, I could read some of those great books about those movie stars and pop stars that had a huge rock bottom moment in their life,

and they'd rebuilt their life Phoenix from the flames. But that wasn't me. I didn't identify with that. I couldn't be inspired by that because that just wasn't my story. Actually, one of the books that I read along the way, which is a great friend of mine now, Rich Rowe, he's finding Ultra. Even though his story clearly has much more of a rock bottom approach to it, I identified with his age, what he did after that moment and went on to be this incredible

ultramarathon runner. So that inspired me, but part way along the journey. But knowing truth, it felt like I was all alone. Especially 10 years ago. I mean, now there's so much more conversation about this. But yeah, 10 years ago, I don't even think I ever heard gray area drinking middle of the lane or sober curious. None of this stuff was talked about. It was that impression maybe that you had to be at the end of your rope in a sense to really change things. And it's so empowering that we're having these conversations. And I've actually had a good handful of people. And a lot of them from all over the. the world too about these conversations to where there wasn't this massive rock bottom. And some people do share that maybe there was a vision for more like they felt like things were progressing and maybe no guarantees, but maybe the longer they stuck around, then maybe the more consequences that might come in and impact. And a lot of people who did hit rock bottoms, I've asked them the

question, when did you notice the switch? And a lot of people can't really even narrow it down. And that's another scary thing because I think that, yeah, there's a lot of gray area people out there. I mean, that's probably the biggest category, middle of the lane. But I'm also thinking back to that question of somebody who might identify as an alcoholic or might have hit massive rock bottoms time and time again. When you ask them that question of when things switched for you and they're like, I really have no idea. I'm just wondering, do we live in the gray area forever? And I think it's going to be different for everybody or we're going to live in the middle lane forever. And of course, there will be people who will.

But I think some percentage of people might move further along. And it's scary to hear people who really struggled with it, not know when that changed for them. So powerful and so true. So the way I liken the middle lane, so really the middle lane is everyone that drinks outside, those that don't drink like myself now, and those that, let's just say, physically dependent on alcohol. But that's a massive gradient, isn't it, that middle lane? contains hundreds and hundreds of millions of adults, even in the Western world alone. But that is a gradient. It's a slope, effectively. And I think for some people, it's more

slippery than others. And was I on that slope? Absolutely. Had I not woken up for myself at some point, who knows where that would have ended for me? And I think back to what we said about the middle lane there, what was beautiful for me 10 years ago, because nothing existed. So I was really motivated to do something about it. I thought, what, if it doesn't exist, I'm going to create something. And I started having those conversations. And no one understood it. No one understood.

It was so black and white with alcohol. It was like, you're addicted or you're not. And the conventional thinking was, well, if you're not addicted, then why wouldn't you drink? That doesn't make any sense. They couldn't understand it. I went on the number one radio show in Ireland. Really in the early days to talk about this. And the host basically wanted me to say that I was a problem drinker.

So constantly asking me, how much did you drink? No, but tell me more about how much you drink, because I could tell what he wanted me to do. He wanted me to say a certain volume so he could switch off, and he could put me in a box and say, well, I'm not you. But I wouldn't. My sort of middle lane ninja skills, I was like, I was a normal drinker, a middle lane drinker, and I wouldn't let him out of this sort of headlock he wanted to get me in. And I thought I'd turned him around.

I was talking about the one beer movement, and right at the end of this conversation that could have inspired literally hundreds of thousands of people, he went, well, I don't have a problem, so I won't be taking a break. click oh man you missed the point it's not about that anymore this is a different conversation we're having we're talking about this middle lane and they're the group that i'm i'm inspired by and i'm trying to motivate and i've just kept having that conversation ever since i shared with rich row on his podcast was one of the first times we really started to talk about the middle lane which went to millions and millions of people and the happy pair guys in ireland were kind enough to call me like the godfather of or in some ways the alcohol-free movement that like middle lane movement because

it's so wonderful we're having these conversations now and I love it even those that have maybe got a slightly different story are starting to understand there's this whole world and maybe we can inspire one person or a thousand people or a million people that are on that slope somewhere on that gradient to get out before like you say that switch is flick because who knows when that's going to come that could be one more drink or it could be another thousand we don't know but if you're off the slope it can't get you right if you're you're right if you're you're not you're you're so far off the slope, you're doing better things with your life and you're getting your energy and your time, you're feeling amazing. Like my view is, why would you drink? So true. Yeah, it's

interesting too with the interview that they're being pushed towards to put a number to it or an amount. And it's so interesting because I always say it doesn't matter about the amount. It matters how you feel about it. And does it align with your goals? If these are your goals is to exercise every morning at 6 a.m. And you can't because you're hung over, then alcohol is getting in the way of what you said you wanted to do for yourself and how you feel about it. And it doesn't require massive volumes

to start to have an impact on your life. So it's so interesting. And then people want to get caught up. And I know why they want to do it. It's the same reason I did it. Because I didn't want to be, I didn't want to have to give it up. So as long as I could convince myself personally

that so-and-so was worse off and so is this. And everybody else had the problem. I could really shield myself from, hey, look, like there's nothing to see here. I've got everything together. And I'm not as bad as John down the street. It was a defense and a denial mechanism. Sometimes people do really get caught up in the quantity. But it really doesn't.

There's just really nothing there. It doesn't matter. It's about what comes down to about our goals in life where we're headed. And is alcohol getting in the way? It's a yes or no type deal. and move forward. What was Rich Roll's thoughts on the middle lane drinking? He was incredible because Rich stories classic 12 step AA. So I must admit, I went into that conversation and sometimes people can be very passionate about that space and can be very much

like that's the way to do it. Rich was the first person that really understood what I was trying to say. He understood that we weren't talking about addiction in that classic sense. Of course, argue there's again a gradient of addiction and maybe we're all addicted to something, whether it's our phones or alcohol, but he understood that there was a difference. He understood that what I was talking about was much more prevention. And he helped me articulate that so beautifully, which I was so impressed by because I was a bit worried. I thought maybe it was going to be like, well, I don't understand why you're talking about this middle lane thing. But he got it and he helped me share that message and people understood it. And it woke people up. All those people in the middle

lane actually was sitting there thinking, well, it's not me because I'm not like that, that guy that I've just seen on the park bench, therefore I'm okay, when actually the big message behind the middle lane is if you're not there, and you just described this, if you're not where you want to be in life in terms of your consistency of exercise and most people are not, or the way you nourish your body, or your ambition is fading a little bit, or you're a bit grumpy and you don't have the time that you would like. My mantra behind it very much, and bear in mind, I'm talking to the middle lane. I'm not talking to people that with dependent. or addiction because it would be a different message, but with the middle lane, very much my approach

has been, why don't take a break? Imagine if I'm right. Imagine if everything I bang on about, and I go live on social media every single day. I've been doing that for seven years. Instagram, Facebook, banging the same drum, banging the same story. I think I'm probably the most swiped past person in the history of swiping, but eventually I just keep shoving up. I grind them down and eventually I know they're going to be hung over one morning and go, hold on, I wonder if he's got to say something interesting and they come to it. And what I'm saying all the time is, why not take a break? Go and check it out because you don't know what your 100% is. Think about this and this was my big reflection that woke me up. I was like, in theory,

I'm never out of the shadow of alcohol. And I think so many people that plays out. So let's just say, I have one or two drinks during the week. Nothing majorly excessive. But that's to destroy my sleep. Fact. I might not have major hangover symptoms, but that's probably going to affect my performance for at least two days, maybe three days. I think the older you get, the longer you feel those effects. If then I go out on a Saturday and have a few more, like a good few more, that's probably going to affect me for two or three or four days, even if it's the more subtle effects such as poor quality sleep. And there's a plethora of research around what sleep does to your productivity, your mental health and whatnot. If you do the maths, that's only like once in the

week and once at the weekend. That's 100% of the time you're underperforming. You're not quite yourself. How many people are living their entire life, their adult life, underperforming because of alcohol? And let's just say you grow up twice in the week, or you're sitting at home having a couple of glasses of wine in front of the telly every night or most nights. You've never experienced as an what's like to be your optimal 100% self. And that is my message in. It's like, take a break and find out. Imagine if you've got more time.

Imagine if your skin glows. Imagine if you're less grumpy. Imagine if you show up like a hero in the office. Imagine if your relationships are better. Your eyes sparkle again. You have more fun. You're more connected. Wouldn't that be worth a little experiment of 28 days, for example?

And you get a little extra money in your pocket too for a lot of us, right? Well, we might spend it somewhere else, but at least it's not going down the toilet. That's incredible. But I also see the other side of it too, why talking about this, there can be some resistance, right? Because we're stuck on that with the Hollywood movies show us. We're stuck on what it looks like, what somebody looks like that has a problem. And it may not even be a big, massive problem. But the benefits of giving it up are just so incredible.

boy, no matter how much that you're drinking, like you mentioned there. And I had another person Todd on the podcast. And if things weren't really out of control, there were some nights, so he would share every couple months or every, sometimes it would have a, you would have a tough night. But majority of the time, things were okay. He kept it together and things were good. But he, he was blown away by the benefits of giving it up. And he still is years later. What were some of the big things that you realize taking a 28 day break and now 10 years? I mean, that's incredible. What are some of the big takeaways that you've witnessed? Yeah, 10 years is a long break, isn't it? And I'm still going. I'm still going because the benefits kept

flowing through for me and they continue to do. And my frame around it is this. There is nothing to give up and everything to gain, nothing to give up, everything to gain. It's really important to me. And it's so true. It's. It's a frame around it is this. It's a frame around it is this. It's It's so true. I think everything alcohol promises, alcohol free, gives you 10 times more is the way I look at it. So for me, let's look at some of the ones that wouldn't be as obvious. Trust in myself again. Trust myself. How many people right now have got a relationship with alcohol in the middle lane and they say to themselves, this is the week that I'm going to go to the gym and they don't go because they're a bit jaded, a bit tired, a bit hungover. Or they say I'm going to work on my nutrition this week

and it doesn't happen. I'm going to be the best parent I can be and they snap because they're a bit grumpy because they're a bit tired. How many people are going through that loop right now, beating themselves up? And we lose faith in ourselves to be able to make change. So when I made that big change, which is a big change, I grew trust in myself. We know how important trust is with other people. Trust in yourself is 10 times more important. And because of that, it cascaded into all these other incredible lifestyle changes. I changed my nutrition at the time predominantly plant-based, started to exercise continually, lost three stone in weight. My body fat went from 35% down to below 10%. Where it still is today, 10 years later. Talk about yo-yo dieting. That is how you do it properly. And my skin started

to glow. I had rosacea. Rosacea is a chronic skin disease. It's never going away. You can take pills, but for the rest of your life, it went away. It vanished because my body was healing. I had early onset heart disease because of the lifestyle that I was living. I discovered after my dad had a treble bypass. I got tested. My two brothers were clear bill of health. I wasn't. So my arteries were thirring. After all of those life transformations, I went back to my cardiologist, and he was astounded. It was astounded by the changes in me physiologically and to even look at. And then he called out the radiologist who did the calcium score. And to their amazement, it looked like I paused that heart disease and even reversed it.

pretty coarse of physiological winds. My resting heart rate went from 68 to Athlete 42 again. I felt brilliant. There was a moment in my life genuinely when I thought, oh, I know why I feel a bit shy. I'm a bit overweight and the world feels a bit grey and I'm a bit stressed all the time. It's middle age.

And I believe that. And then, of course, fast forward and I've lost all the way and I've got my energy back. I realize you're not meant to feel like that. You're never meant to feel like that. I'm almost 50 now. And I lift heavier. a run faster, fitter or as fit as when I play professional sport. Pretty cool. Like the winds just keep

coming through. Confidence. Let's talk about confidence. Alcohol gives you fake confidence. It's not real world confidence, is it? And all it does, it actually shuts down the prefrontal cortex part of your brain, which is the bit that makes you human. So in that space, you feel less fear. So there's no courage in doing things or saying things when you're not actually feeling the fear. Where real confidence comes from is when you feel the fear and do it anyway, as Susan Jeffers says, you build your real world confidence. I think alcohol steals the confidence from most middle age adults. I see that all the time. They've lost all their confidence. The only way to get their confidence is to have a few drinks. Imagine the power of walking into a room or doing those confidence challenges without alcohol.

You keep every drop of it. It's yours. That's why people walk taller. They've got a new energy about them when they come on this alcohol-free adventure. One more, and there's a million I can list off, but let's just do one more. Ambition. I think ambition is really important. I think we have to have a sense that we want to achieve things and do things in the world. Again, big things, small things. I think alcohol is like kryptonite to our dreams. I think it's like carrying around kryptonite in your backpack and it sucks away that little bit of balance that we need to go and do the things we want to do in this world, when you remove it, a lovely ambition, that desire, that drive comes bouncing back. For me, it is the ultimate productivity tool. It's the ultimate business tool. It's the ultimate

life tool. It is the one thing that makes all the difference. And that's just a few, that's just a few of the benefits I could carry on. Yeah, those are incredible. And I love that too. And I think it's hard when we first start out. I mean, we hear that from other people, It's hard to believe that might be our journey too, but it really happens. And that confidence, too, that's an incredible point about how when you're not drinking, then you're able to go into those situations, maybe full of fear or insecurities. But as you work through them, you build that muscle. You build that muscle that you're capable of doing hard things, that you're capable of showing up in a different way.

And what a blessing to be able to do that naturally and not have to rely always on drink to feel comfortable at the work function or the family event. or wherever it is, right? I mean, that, in the ambition part, too, and that's just so powerful just to go after what's important to us in life and to do it. And I'm just inspired by the story that you're sharing, too, to where alcohol wasn't necessarily ruining your entire life, but the ability for you to give it up,

wherever you were on the journey has provided you so many benefits, and that's just so hopeful for people who are maybe going back out and trying to moderate and trying to figure out in trying to do this and telling themselves, well, it's not that bad or I don't have a problem. It's not this. This is just an incredible message just to say if you're in the earlier stages or you're in that middle lane or if you're there on the spectrum. Because I do believe things are on a spectrum too, right? There's one side where it's this and then there's one side where you're not drinking at all.

And then there's like you said, hundreds of thousands of millions of people in that middle area. but a story like yours to show that there's so many benefits. I mean, what you're experiencing is incredible benefits and an incredible motivation to say, let's take a break. And then you talked a little bit about one year, no beer. What's that all about? Or what was that all about?

So that was an organization that I started. It was a rhyme in my head because I needed some cover, basically, to be able to take a break from alcohol, which is ridiculous, isn't it? It's the only drug in the world that when you try and give it up, you get slaughtered for it. I certainly did, and most people find that. The rubber arm twisted, you get a barrage of abuse for not drinking.

That is changing, by the way. And that's a beautiful thing. Having been in this for 10 years, that's definitely softening now, but it was extreme. So I needed some cover. So I started making up this a bit of a rhyme, one here, no beer that I was doing this challenge. Just to get people off my back for five minutes so I could see, did this thing actually give me anything?

And of course it did. it gave me so much. And they all thought they were getting their drinking buddy back. So it brought me just enough cover to build up that momentum of that first 90 days. And then I, like, I knew, I don't think I'm ever going back. And then I had my power come back. Do you know what I mean? To say to people, I'm just not drinking. It didn't matter to me anymore. But I needed some cover. So that then started a little e-book. I just wrote this little e-book. I was a broker at the I'm running my own brokerage. And that little e-book ended up getting picked up by Pam McMillan, one of the biggest

publishers in the world. It then started the movement that is one, you know, beer for the first two years. That was a very much an altruistic movement that we started. And then we had invested hundreds of thousands of pounds of our own money. It almost bankrupt us both and broke us both in trying to inspire people and help people. But at that stage, we were already into the tens of thousands of lives that we were impacting. And it was such a beautiful bus. me, that is the greatest buzz ever. When someone reaches out and says, this podcast, this conversation

has helped me and helped my family, that beats a beer buzz hands down forever. And I think that's why so many of us are drawn to giving back in this space. But one beer then became a thing. We had to turn it into a thing. So since then, I've had to become as skillful as possible, really, as an alcohol free entrepreneur in many ways, in helping lots of people basically get out into the world. And I step down from that in 2019, really because I wanted to get out into the world and come up this alcohol-free space from loads of different angles. So I created another organization called Dry, D-R-Y-Y-Y. It's got an extra Y. It's an app. It's free. You can download it. There's live content in the every day. I'm in there most days. It's a beautiful space, wonderful community. You all know this

from the beautiful community you've created. I think the sober space sphere, which includes everything for me, from that whole gradient, it's one of the most wonderful spaces there is globally, especially with this beautiful power that is the internet, that people come together to overcome this challenge, whatever that looks like for them, wherever they're at on their adventure, and then they turn that into something really positive. And the dry app and movement and community, for me, it's just a beautiful space. I feel very lucky, very privileged to be a part of it, to have been a part of many different initiatives in the alcohol-free space that collectively inspiring millions of people. And again, my focus has always been on prevention and the middle lane.

That's where I've been doing as much of my work as possible. That's beautiful. Yeah, and that's grown into something huge to offer people that one year no beer. I love how you shaped it up there, right? You had to get people off your back because it's wild to even think that's where we're at. And I think you mentioned earlier, things are improving, the conversations are improving, the research is improving, a lot more information is coming out about the effects. of alcohol on our health, on our mental health and everything. And I think that's helping people understand a little bit better if somebody says they're not drinking.

Well, it's linked to seven types of cancer. It makes a little bit more sense, a little bit more accepting. If you say, well, I quit doing cocaine, people are like, good job, like so proud of you. But then if you're like, why don't drink alcohol anymore, yeah, some people will all quickly jump to a conclusion of you had a massive problem with it. What was, oh, you're an alcoholic or, oh, you had this. And it's great to see it changing, but I like how you put that to where you have to be committed. I think that's actually a great tool for people too.

If you're struggling with it and people are really giving you a hard time, you can come up with some of the benefits and be a part of something that's helping. Yeah. And that's so important for me. So the frame I always put around it is focus on the wins. What does it give you through that period? Not on what you're giving up. Because I think that's what can keep people so stuck. Like it kept me stuck for a long while.

It's like, I'm going to lose these things if I give someone. something up, but actually, what are you gaining from it? Have you got more time, more energies, your skin, looking better, your connections better, you're less grumpy, you're more consistent in your exercise, you're losing some weight? Like even some of the headlines, results that we know from one of the biggest studies on, again, Middle Lane drink has taken a 28-day break from alcohol. Professor Kevin Moore on this study, I've interviewed him a few times, very interesting guy, and the results were staggering.

So this is again, middle lane drinkers just taking a 28 day break from alcohol effectively. On average, they lost three kilograms in weight, reduced their dangerous visceral liver fat by up to 40%, reduced their risk of various types of cancer, reduced their risk of type 2 diabetes, improve their cholesterol. I mean, the list goes on to such a point that Professor Kevin Moore said pretty much, quote, unquote, if these results were found in a pill form, everyone would want it and it would be worth billions. And here we are in this like mad society where again, it's the last rock that we lift up.

We're running around trying to do all these other things. And actually one of the other things that he highlighted to me, which I thought was really interesting, we've got a billion dollar cosmetic industry. People are always looking for the next lotion or potions or fix to look younger and improve their skin. alcohol destroys the quality of your skin. He highlighted this.

He said, people don't realize that. They know it about it in smoking. Alcohol does the exact same thing. So then I liken that and think, imagine those beauty counters in one of these big superstores that we see. And there's all the lotions and potions and there's all this money being invested in them. Do you know what I'd love to do? I'd love a stand right in the middle that says, it's free.

I've got the best thing you could ever do for your skin and your skin's going to glow. your hair's going to be more voluptuous and hydrated, and it doesn't cost anything. In fact, it'll save you a ton of cash. All you have to do is take a break from alcohol. Imagine how many people are going in there at the moment, buying those lotions and potions and then washing it down with a glass of vino-calypso and wondering why they're not getting the results. Just take a break from alcohol, see what it does to your skin.

I mean, I could little wax lyrical about every single area of our life, from our relationships, to our health, to our productivity, don't get restarted on that one. Everything gets better for me if you remove alcohol. It's like a superpower. There is nothing to give up. I believe there's a saying it's a lucky wind that blows the house down. And I really believe that. I think for anyone that's had a relationship with alcohol,

that's caused you to pause and reflect upon that relationship, and you've found the courage, as hard as that might be, to make a transformation in that relationship. with alcohol and again, I'm predominantly talking middle lane now. That for me is the greatest gift. It could turn out to be the greatest gift you ever give yourself and I believe for me it's the greatest gift that I was ever given that my relationship woke me up with alcohol to a new way I live in, a new life, this magical superpower which, who would have fallen, is to not do this thing that most adults in the Western world are doing.

That's the truth. Yeah, it's so incredible. What's the challenges do you feel of getting somebody in the middle lane to consider a 28 day break? Yeah, I think a lot of it is awareness. So if we look at the stages of change models, the trends theoretical model, which I love, and a guy called James Pruchasca created it. And the reason he created that, and I like his stories, because his dad was an oppressive alcoholic that was basically suspicious of all hierarchy doctors, so he wouldn't get any help.

And then he watched his dad die. He was his dad dying and was incredibly frustrated. He didn't know how to change. So he created this change model so we can understand change. So you've got different stages. Pre-contemplation are most people that actually at the moment I've got no idea that alcohol might be the thing in the middle lane that's making them grumpy, that's making them inconsistent and all of those things. So I think we've got a really great role and this is part of what we're doing here, almost just tapping people on the shoulder that are in that pre-contemplation stage and just waking them up a little bit. And they might come away from this and think, oh, actually, I'll I wonder is it alcohol that's making me a bit grumpy? I wonder is it alcohol that's straining our relationships. So I think that's a big role that we have and you do it so beautifully with your community and podcast, as to many of the sober influencers now, which wasn't a thing when I got into this 10 years ago. So I think that's a great start.

The more they hear that, alcohol-free alternatives are changing the game completely. And I think it is about their messaging. I think it's an inspirational message rather than you've been a naughty boy or naughty girl message and you're trying to tell people off and bang them over the head with the science and the studies. It's just, look, I'm getting all these great results over here. It's been brilliant for me. I'm living on the fun side of the island. I'm having, you know, more fun than I've ever had in my life. Maybe you just want to come and join us. And a lot of the work that I've been doing over the last few years is training

coaches. It's a big part of what I do. I train coaches, executive coaches, also train alcohol-free performance coaches. So it's, I guess, a new genre of coaching that, again, is mainly for the middle lane, because I think that's a group that's been completely underserved. And I think that's also gaining huge traction because people are waking up in their masses to the fact that I don't think alcohol is serving them. Equally, they're still finding it really difficult to stop. And one of the things that always frustrated me was this, there's still this perfectionist mindset, isn't there, when it comes to change. So people believe if I stop drinking, unless I do that perfectly, I've failed. So therefore, I give up. And bear in mind, I am talking to the middle lane. So I appreciate it.

it might be different at different parts. But for me, that actually doesn't make sense, because if you look at the stages of change model and the science behind it, it's a corkscrew of change. It takes people four or five times at least before they make long-term change. So even though it might feel like after a blip or a slip or whatever you want to call it, that you've gone back to zero, you haven't because it's a corkscrew. So there's always upward momentum and progress. So I think we also have a lot to do around that messaging, to take away some of that all or nothing thinking when it comes to change. If I take a drink, take a drug, whatever it is, that's it. In the middle lane, I've fouled, I'm useless, I've got no willpower, everyone else

is perfect, and then we give up. It's actually, what can you learn from that event? Will it teach you what you need to know? How can you prepare in advance so that next time if you're in a similar situation, you mark it as a blip and you bounce back quicker. I think messaging needs to be out there as well because then it stops people in that mindset of I'm broken. I can't do it. I'm going to go and hide where it's safe in the crowd at the moment. So for me, that's really important as well. Yeah, I love the stages of change. I used to work at a treatment center and we would always refer to that and people would do, we have to do our seminars on the stages of change, identifying where they're at and also identifying if you do plug into the stages of change, identifying what

it looks like to get to the next stage, what work needs to be done. I think it's a, because people on this journey, they often wonder like, where am I right now? Okay, I might have 30 days or 60 days or two days or a slip, but where actually am I? And I think the stages of change is a great reference to get an idea of where you're at in the whole process. There can be a lot of shame involved with having a slip or a relapse or whatever it is. There can be a lot of shame involved with that to going back to your community or going back to the group

or whatever it is you're involved with, the treatment or whatever it is. And you can carry it and look over the years I've seen a lot of people not come back for some time out of fear of what other people are going to think. And that's such an empowering way to put it. And I always look at it like if you do the ninth grade

and you've maybe failed the test at the end, it doesn't mean you didn't learn anything throughout the entire year. You're still going to learn stuff and then reflecting back and looking at it as like, what can I learn here to help me on the next time? I really love how you put that, Andy. Yeah, it's so powerful. It's one of the most powerful things I think we do as coaches is really working on that in advance. And people are almost a bit resistant because they're a bit like,

why are we working on the fact that it might go wrong? Surely the whole idea is we make change. And if you understand the stages of change, as you and I do, the misconception is that change is all about action. So if someone does something obvious, such as quitting alcohol, then they've taken action. But there's a whole gradient of change. And people's change might be that they just listen to this podcast. That could be a great movement along the stages of change in contemplation and preparation before action. So I think everything is changed.

The momentum that we're building and sometimes people are not ready. they're not ready to make that change. They haven't contemplated enough. There's a lot of ambivalence in their life. The love, hate relationship with alcohol. I hate it. Never again. Oh, but I quite like to drink my friends to get over this thing.

So I think that needs to be worked through as well. But then very often, I think if you understand that process, you can move someone along, prepare them, and then prepare them in advance for when things go wrong. inevitably, own it. Let's, you know, be ready for it. What are your options if it doesn't quite work out? Now, do you bounce back quicker?

What can I learn from that event? I think by doing that work with someone in advance, is some of the most powerful work you can ever do because change is inherent with blips. I always liken it to a child when you see a little toddler and they fall over, right? They don't just then give up and go, oh, this is it. I've blown it. I'm the worst walker in the world.

I'm just going to crawl on my bum for the rest of my life. Do they get up? And they fall over again and they wallop themselves and they cry their eyes out and then they go on their bum for a little one. then they're right, right, back up, I'm going to go for it again. That's how humans learn. We learn through our mistakes. It's not something to be ashamed of or embarrassed about,

and I think if you can take that shame away and that embarrassment away, people bounce back so much quicker. Because as you said, what I found in the early days, I was scared of it. I was scared of talking about blips and mistakes. It was like Voldemort. If you ever watched Harry Potter, like, He Who Shall Not Be Named, don't mention the slips.

If I mention it, I'm giving someone license. And then I realized through, the science, that was actually terrible advice for me. And then I realized actually by getting it out in the open, people were much quicker to come back. As you described, in the early days of me doing this, people would just disappear. And invariably they'd disappear, I think, because they felt embarrassed, they felt ashamed, they didn't want to let me down, all of those type of emotions. Whereas when it's out in the open, you've just disarmed it. It loses so much of its power. Yes, it hurts when we blip or we slip.

But if you've done that training in advance, I think people are so much quicker to go dust myself off. What can I learn from it? Let's get back on it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, the sooner, the better for it to get back at it. And there's no failure, obviously, with all of this. But I mean, I think if we were to come close to maybe the definition of that term,

it can only be achieved by just giving up completely forever. For the rest of the time is the only way that I think. think we won't achieve. I think if what I've seen from people in my own story too is if you stick around and you just keep showing up, eventually you're going to get closer and closer to where you want to be and you're going to do the work in between whatever support you're doing and getting connected to a community and being around other people that are going to pick you up and inspire you and motivate you to keep showing up and just love you no matter where you're at in your journey. Good people along the way are going to be honest with you and hold you accountable in a sense.

We're also going to meet you where you're at and not try to drag you up to where they want you to be. Yeah, it's so beautifully said. And that's it. It's a time thing for a lot of people. And if you look at most people's story when it comes to long-term sobriety or someone like myself, you usually find there's years in the making. We talk about spontaneous sobriety. I think it's incredibly rare. I think if you actually peel back the layers, you'll probably find that people move through those stages over a long period of time.

And as someone that's been at this for 10 years, there is people that will come up to me and say, I've watched your stuff or been involved in your groups for three years, four years, five years, and then I cracked it. And then I got it right. Or as I described right to start the podcast, they almost laugh and ignore me and go, oh, there's that guy banging on about bloody being alcohol free again, yeah, whatever. And they're quite happy with their relationship with Alcon. And then some six, seven years later, I met a lady just recently.

They said, I swiped past you forever. and then eventually went, oh, I wonder. And now her life has changed. Middle lane drinker, stopped drinking, going through menopause, that and many of the symptoms for her have been alleviated. She's got a confidence back. She's got a power back.

And she's, you were right all along. And I'm like, I know, my best one was my, and people have to be ready to change. That's another really important thing. Can't crowbar people into change. It's got to be their choice, their intrinsic choice. And I respect that and I love that.

My lovely wife, Tara, she still drinks. She still drinks, always has done. And I love her and respect her for that. I'm not telling people they shouldn't do anything. I'm just out there sharing my story. And it's that inspires people great. All my best friends still drink. Most of my families still drink. It is a bit of a solo mission. That's why I love communities like our dry community because globally, you get together with a group of people that understand you. But here's a great example. My lovely wife Tara about a year ago took a break from alcohol because she was doing a fitness plan. And on that fitness plan, which was brilliant, almost a stealth part of it, was that you don't drink alcohol through this fitness plan. They didn't really lead with it, but it was in the literature, which I thought was really clever, because then everyone's going to get brilliant results, nothing to do with their fitness plan, just for the fact they're stopping drinking, by the way, so I thought that was pretty neat. So anyway, my wife Tara goes on this adventure and says, do you know what? I'm about 45 days into this alcohol-free thing. I've got a bit more time, actually, I've just noticed. I've got a bit more energy.

I feel a bit better. My skin's glowing. Yeah, I think this is pretty cool, this alcohol-free thing. And I paused and looked at her and said, have you not been listening to me? For the last 10 years, I've been banging on about this every single day on every single social media platform that will allow me or have me on podcast.

And you're telling me as if this is like fresh news, which we both laughed about. But that proves the point is what I'm trying to make. It has to be posted. personal choice. You can't do it because someone says you should do it. It needs to come from within. And if you feel that tug from within, align with beautiful communities like this community or dry or find your space because it's very much a solo mission in truth. But you will meet the most beautiful people along the way. I love the alcohol-free community. I love the sober space.

I've been a champion of it the last 10 years and I always will be because I think it's the most wonderful collection of humans that have woken up to something that wasn't serving them. And in that space, I think you genuinely can unlock your best self. That's the adventure that we're both on. That's beautiful. So, yeah, that's it. Your wife, that's so funny. So she was swiping on your videos too.

Well, hopefully somebody out there is listening. Andy? Yeah, let's hope so. But I'll be someone out there. But that's the truth. And that, I think that in itself is, makes this journey so individual. getting started journey and coming to that place of just really giving it an honest look and really being honest with yourself about what impact is it having on your life and is it preventing you from

heading to where you want to and you brought up a lot of the other the benefits of doing it if we just look at the opposite those are the consequences maybe or those are the other things that we're not enjoying about it and if those things are getting in the way of where you're headed or how you want to feel or the relationships you want to have that part of the journey is very personal for sure. We can't just go around and you bang everybody over the head with a baseball bat and tell them to stop drinking or get sober. I love that other point you made too about. Sometimes it's years before. Sometimes it's years of trying and not getting the result, but it's like anything else in our life. Very rarely do we do something new for the first time and then things just work out

from there forward. Sometimes they do, but often things when we're trying to master new skills, or get out of our comfort zone and really try something new. It takes a few cracks. It can take years to do it. So I think that's really important for people not to be down and out on themselves if things don't just fully align first try. Yeah, it's so beautifully powerful. Exactly that.

And I think the work that we both do and showing up and shining our light, and by the way, I think we passed that baton to anyone that is courageous enough or is fortunate enough to be able to show up and shine and be alcohol-free. And I appreciate that's very difficult for some people. And we should never underestimate that. But those of us that do and can show up and shine, sends such a powerful message. Gandhi said it, be the change that you want to see in the world. Right. That's how I view it. I'm just showing up and shining it as best I can. And if I can inspire people and collectively, I think we can make a difference. And I really believe about

the alcohol-free space community, we're changing the world right now. Like how many opportunities in your life do you get a chance to be a part of something that is changing culture, is changing the world right now. It hasn't ever happened before. It's happening now. This is the time. The alcohol-free revolution for me is now. You can see it for the alcohol-free alternatives and the drinks. You can see it through the dry jam participation.

I believe in the next five to ten years, alcohol will end up like smoking in many ways. Of course, people will still do it. And I have so much love and respect for everyone's individual choice. Go for it if that's what you want to do. The same with smoking, same with drug, that's their choice, not mine. But people will be fully aware, and the game will change completely. I've got some massive projects coming up. We've got a documentary coming out as well, hopefully in 2025, which we're working on right now.

And really, all of these initiatives that I'm creating are designed to just tip that flywheel to such a point. It's going to go, and I think we're almost there. So this is the best time ever to be a part of this. Because for once in our lives, I reckon we can be able to look back in a couple of years and go, we were the cool kids. We figured it out ahead of the game. Wouldn't that be something? So that's my plan.

Anyway, and I'm sticking to it. I just saw the other day that White Claw is coming out with. It has a 0%. I mean, they say non-acophobic, but it's 0% sales her from my understanding. But you know when the big companies are starting to move in this direction, then you know that the writing is. on the wall, right? This becoming something people are interested in. And people are going to feel a certain way about big company one day pushing alcohol and the next day pushing zero percent. I don't want to

get into all that stuff. But you do see that people are recognizing the change. They see the need for it. And I couldn't agree with you more. I mean, even in Ireland too, I think next year, they're putting labels on the cans like they do cigarettes. I mean, change is definitely coming. People are seeing it more for what it is than what it was. And I think it's very encouraging because if I'm with you, what people choose to do, I love you no matter what. If that's what you choose to do, a ton of people around me, that's what they choose to do. And I still got nothing but love for them. But I don't know that we've had a fair opportunity to be made aware of the effects of alcohol for a long time. And I do think that the playing field is evening out to where we're now getting the information to where we can

make an informed decision. And I think that's all we could ask for. And then people do with it what they may. But I really enjoy that part that we're getting from the information from the people that are a lot smarter than me anyway. They check all this stuff out, the effects on the body. I know how I felt about it and I know without it I feel a gazillion times better. So I can get that data for myself. But for some people, they like that concrete scientific evidence and stuff. And I really appreciate us getting some more of that it seems every week or every month. Yeah, and that's the difference. I always say I'm not anti-alcohol or such, but I'm very pro-awareness.

And right now, most people in the middle lane are unaware, completely unaware of alcohol's relationship on their health and productivity and all the things we've mentioned in this podcast. I just want people to be aware. Like, they're fully aware around smoking, aren't they? The Western world is fully aware of the effects of smoking. If you choose to smoke, brilliant. Go for it. But you're aware.

I'd say the vast majority of people who drink right now have no idea because they're making the assumption if I'm not in that addiction space, then I'm fine. And the truth is, you're not in every area, not only physiological, psychological as well. So I think we've got a big role to play, but culture is shifting. And if I can just touch on something that happened to me recently in Ireland just quickly, I went to Ireland, my lovely wife, who is Irish, and we went to a pub, best pubs in the world in Ireland. I love going to the pubs, why wouldn't I?

sat down. I said to the lady when she came round, what did you want to drink? I said, I don't drink. I haven't had a drink for 10 years. She went, brilliant. We've got loads of alcohol free alternatives. Do you want a Guinness? Zero, zero. And she listed them all off. And I had a drink. Great start. Then I looked at the bar, a traditional Irish scene. There was an old guy. In his late 70s, propped up at the bar in front of a Guinness. Going to any pub in Ireland, you will see that scene. And also something very common to pubs in Ireland. You'll see two, maybe three generations. in that pub. It's a place of connection. It's a place of community very much in Ireland. And in walks the son, because he looked like the dad. Son's probably my age, late 40s, 50. Sat next to his dad.

Again, a very typical scene that you may have seen, almost passing on that baton, right? When the old man passed away, you could imagine the son in that seat, he orders his Guinness next to his dad. And the Guinness comes out and something beautiful happened. No one else noticed, apart from me. It was a Guinness Zero Zero. And right there, I got goosebumps because I was like, that is a cultural shift. That son was able to be in a pub with his dad, but break the chain. He didn't have to sit with his dad and drink the same alcoholic pint of Guinness. He could sit with his dad and connect in a great space and do it alcohol free. That's a cultural game changer right there. And for me, that's a sign of the revolution that's happening right before our eyes.

I'm delighted that you're a part of. And we're doing our little piece, my man. Thank you so much. Anything else you want to say before we sign off? Again, just keep doing what you're doing. And I'm out there. If people want to come and find me anywhere, I'm Andy Ramage official on Instagram, Facebook. My website's Andy Ramich. There's loads of free resources on there. I'm out every single day, banging this drum. So if you want a little bit of motivation, inspiration, I'm there for you. every single day. Awesome. Thank you so much, Andy. Well, there it is, everyone. Another incredible episode. Thank you, Andy, extremely grateful for you coming on here and sharing your story and

expertise with us. And I'm really glad we had this talk about Middle Lane drinking. Some people might be more familiar with the idea of gray area drinking. I think there's a lot of similarities. It's not that you don't drink or that you're dependent on alcohol. You're falling somewhere in the middle. There's so many people, and Andy does an incredible job to share the benefits that he experienced even by going alcohol-free, even being in this space. Because I think that that's sometimes the spot, right? If something's not causing us a ton of pain and a ton of consequences, will there be benefits to quitting? And my goodness, we just heard a ton of them. And I think even in Todd's story, a couple episodes back, is this kind of stuff he talked about,

and he shared about and the experiences and benefits that he's noticed is just incredible that surprises them every single day. Thank you, everybody, for hanging out this year. We'll have a couple more episodes before the new year actually starts, but I really appreciate each and every one of you, especially those of you that make it to the end. Thank you so much. I really do some hard work on putting this show together, two episodes a week.

There's not many shows I know that put together. two almost one hour episodes per week unless they're big and they're famous and they have a team of people who do it. But I really enjoy it and I feel like I've grown so much since this show started. And I've just really absorbed so much information and so much insight from all of these guests. No matter what their stories are, how long they've been sober, where everybody brings an extremely unique perspective to things. And I've learned so much, maybe more in the last year than I did in the previous five years

about this topics and about people. And I honestly love nothing more than to connect with people and hear about their stories and how they were able to get out of the cycle and to change their life. And a lot of people are now giving back and wanting to help others in the old. are helping others. So thank you to all of you because it wouldn't be possible.

We're closing in on one million downloads in a little over a year, which is incredible. Let's keep things going. Share the show with a couple of friends if you feel like it might be helpful. Stay connected over to holidays. Have a good one. Stay busy. Have a plan. Stay connected.

And if you need a community to be a part of, join us over at Sober Buddy. There's some of the members. They're incredible and they're hosting some groups on Christmas Eve, Christmas, New Year's Eve. I'll be there New Year's Day. Come and join us and hang out for some of the support groups and meet this incredible community of people that you hear me talk about all the time. It changes everything. Being part of a community and feeling like you're not alone on this journey and people you can talk with and be honest and vulnerable with that will support you and that we'll do the same is incredible. So come and check us out.

the Suburbuddy app if you want to join some of the support groups and i'll see you on the next one