Sober Motivation: Sharing Sobriety Stories - Grey Area Drinking: Meg's Journey with Alcohol and Beyond.

Episode Date: November 6, 2024

In this episode of the Sober Motivation Podcast, I connect with Meg to explore her journey from a typical suburban upbringing in Chicago to navigating her relationship with alcohol. Meg opens up about her experience growing up with a strong family foundation, her high school and college years, and the influence of social and professional environments on her drinking habits. They discuss the concept of 'gray area drinking' and its widespread impact, the societal pressures associated with drinking, and the courageous choice she made to live a sober life. Meg highlights the positive changes she experienced, including better relationships and professional achievements. ---------------- Download The Loosid App: https://loosidapp.onelink.me/vZuQ/62ui9njg Meg on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megmckeen/

Welcome back, everyone, to the Super Motivation podcast. Brad here. For the life of me, I cannot find my intro anywhere on my computer as I sat down to put this episode together. I did a recent update on my laptop and maybe it's just gone. So here we are. On this episode, though, I sat down with my friend Meg and we explored her personal journey from a typical suburban upbringing in Chicago to navigating her relationship with alcohol. Meg opens up about her experience growing up with a strong family foundation, her high school and college years, and the influence of social and professional environments on her drinking habits. We also discuss the concept of gray area drinking and its widespread impact.

And this is Meg's story on the Super Motivation podcast. Before we jump into this episode, I want to give a huge shout out to one of our new sponsors of the podcast, Lucid, is an incredible app that offers so much opportunity for you to stay connected to people that are on the same journey of sobriety and recovery, check out the Lucid app. I'll drop the link down to the show notes below, or you can just search in your app store, Lucid, and it's incredible.

They also have a really cool new merchandise store that they dropped. You can also look in there for the marketplace. You get exclusive discounts to brands that might be of interest to you on this journey. So stay connected, track your sober days, and so much more. Grab the Lucid app today. It's completely free. and I pop in there from time to time to join the discussion. Welcome back to another episode of the Sober Motivation podcast.

Today we've got Meg with us. Meg, how are you? I'm doing great. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Thank you so much for reaching out and being willing to share your story here on the show. I'm having a moment. I'm just going to say that and not talked about this topic in this level of depth publicly.

And so even though I spend a lot of time on your side of the microphone as a podcast, host myself, I'm having some feelings about sharing my story and I'm just really glad for a platform like this that exists to do just that. I have gleaned so much from the conversations that you share. So happy to be here and really humbled and pleased that you've welcomed me. So thank you. Yeah, 100%. I just did a podcast recently with my friend Megan. It was like an hour and 45 minutes. And it is definitely a different feel being on the other end of things and, you know, going through it all. And it all happens so fast, right? So thanks again. So what was it like for you growing up? I grew up in the suburbs of Chicago. I'm the youngest of two kids.

I have an older brother. He's two years older than I am. And currently raising my two favorite little humans, my niece and nephew in the suburbs of Chicago. My parents just celebrate their 50th wedding anniversary they met and started their family when they were quite young. They're happy and enjoying retirement in Western Michigan. And my life, I think, was pretty standard from the outside looking in. No childhood is without its own moments, but I was loved and knew that growing up that was expressed to me and had opinions that mattered and were listened to and really had a very strong family foundation when I was growing up. I wasn't particularly athletic. I wasn't particularly

academic. I got good grades and kind of flew under the radar, if you will. I didn't have any particular acumen in any particular area, but wasn't necessarily causing a bunch of trouble either. So I think I was by definition a pretty good kid. Yeah. No, I love that. What are some of your earliest memories of growing up, you know, through school and stuff like that? Yeah, I remember a really, I'm just going for it, Brad.

I'm going right to the heart of it. A need to fit in and a need to belong. and looking back now with the gift of perspective, which we have at this point in our lives, that need to be accepted really led to a lot of feelings of anxiousness for me as a little girl. And so my friends changed over the years. I was kind of bopping around looking for my place and looking for less of who I thought was worthy of my friendship, but who I thought would think I was worthy of theirs, which is that. that people pleaser, kind of that good girl energy coming out strong when I was a young girl.

Yeah. And it's interesting that you go there with things in a sense because it's a common trend that we hear on the show, right? And it's something, I mean, it's a story that I share as well, trying to find my place. I mean, through, you know, probably after grade five, you know, middle school, like grade six and in seven, eight, and then all the way through high school, try to fit in and find out where I belong and my identity and who am I. And I'm kind of with you in a sense, right? Athletics. I was okay, but never really made the cut.

I share that story a lot on the show. With athletics, with school, I never did well in school at all. I just never had any interest in it. But trying to find my place because that's where it seemed where people fit in. You were either wearing your shirt and tie on Friday that you were on the football team or you did well and you were celebrated in the classroom for your academics. And then my side of the thing is like, I didn't do well there. I didn't do well there.

And I was a pretty awkward shy, lacked confidence and self-esteem. So building relationships and stuff like that was always a challenge. I always had like one really close friend. But I always say like a lot of people, I think when we go through this journey and everybody has their own story and teach their own 100%. But I think I was like sort of destined in a sense to find some sort of a sense. from self. And in my life, when alcohol presented itself and it was there and got to it for the first time, I was like, wow, this is really pretty magical thing. How did how do things move forward

from, you know, kind of in that space of people pleasing and, you know, trying to, you know, move around and find out who you are and find a group of people to connect with? Yeah, I think, I think for me, it was and always has been less about the alcohol and more about the connection that alcohol at least gives the perception of bringing. So being in relationship with other people around alcohol. And later in my high school years, I went to a, I mean, a massive high school is not an understatement. It was very easy to get lost in the crowd. And I wasn't the best student, but I wasn't a bad student.

And so I got good grades. And I kind of understood the rules of the game. Go to class, get decent grades, don't cause trouble. and had a lot of freedom and a lot of flexibility. I also had a lot of part-time jobs. So I was very financially independent, and I was hustling. I was out there doing all sorts of things, including being social. And the last couple years of my high school career, if you will,

my friend group really shifted to other kids, because we were kids at the time, that were of a similar background. So we all were bound for good things, destined for good things. but also had this edge of like, we could probably get away with some stuff here. Because as long as you keep your grades up and you stay out of trouble, nobody's going to know and nobody's paying attention to you because you're not the classic. I keep saying this good kid, bad kid, but at the time, that was the bucket. You were in one or you were in the other.

And so got more, I don't want to say brave because it wasn't smart necessarily. but just started to take more risks. And a lot of those risks came from experimenting with alcohol. I did marijuana was a thing and it wasn't as prevalent then as it is now. I grew up in the 90s. We're talking about the mid-90s when I was in high school. And so mostly alcohol. And it was parties with friends on Friday night.

The parents were out of town. And so somebody would host. And at the time there were no cell phones. So we were all, it was a very grassroots. effort to make these things come together. It was a bonfire out on a piece of vacant land. It was, you know, the park after hours. It was, there was creativity, not a lot of originality, I would say, in sort of how we went about this. And I think what I want to interject is I grew up in a household where there wasn't drinking for different reasons. My mother grew up in a very conservative

of home and therefore there was a lot of judgment and shame attached to drinking and alcohol. My dad is the son of alcoholics who are active in their addiction. And so together they made a choice that they would not have alcohol in the home, that they would not drink in front of my brother or I. And so on one hand, that's a very lovely way to grow up. And I'm very grateful for the choice that they made looking back. It was also really confusing for me because I only saw it. two extremes of drinking. I saw alcohol is bad or you don't drink at all. I never saw the occasional

glass of wine with dinner on a Friday night because you've had a hard week. And so it was very all or nothing for me. And so in one sense, it felt very rebellious. Like, oh, I'm trying this thing that I know is inherently bad. But I was also really curious about it. That will, maybe there's a way for me to balance this in a way that isn't all or nothing, but is a much healthier approach, if any consumption of alcohol is ever healthy, right? Like all the different misnomer's that we collect over the years about alcohol. But it was a very, you know, high school was a very interesting time, rolled into college. I went to school a couple hours away from home and, again, had a lot of independence.

there was a strong drinking culture on campus, a lot of frat parties and after hours drinking. It was a big part of my social life. It was a big part of the socializing that we did at the time. And then graduated, moved away, went to, took my first job in the insurance industry where I still work today out in rural Ohio. And again, we're a bunch of new college grads just finding our footing. And so we go out for happy hour on Friday and we have barbecues on the weekend. And so again, this undercurrent of drinking just, it's sort of always been present in my adult life and in my adult relationships. Yeah.

And I think, too, you mentioned it earlier too about the link between connection, you know, drinking alcohol and then connecting with other people was too. I mean, throughout all this time, are you thinking of anything like, hey, maybe drinking looks different for me. or is it right on point with your peers? I'd say right on point. I was never actually, I don't know that you can be proud of this, but I was kind of always the one that kept it in check. So if there needed to be a designated driver,

that was me. If I was never the one stumbling around and making a fool of myself, that was always somebody else. And I was really proud of that, that I could hang, but also be in control. What was happening,

now that I understand and can look back through a different lens is my anxiety was all over the place. I was in such fight or flight mode in those moments when I'd had several drinks. I was paranoid. I was constantly worried about getting caught, getting in trouble, getting whatever sort of ramification. Alcohol never provided for me that kind of sweet release that we talk about. It only ever exacerbated the anxiety, but I kept doing it because in a large sense, everybody else was, and I hate that excuse, but it was such a part of our culture. And I just assumed everybody else was having the same experience that I was. I had no reason to think that they weren't because we weren't talking about it. We were

complaining about hangovers or, you know, that beers weren't a dollar anymore. They were two dollars or whatever the beef was at the time. I wasn't thinking holistically about how this was all Yeah, which is interesting too. I mean, when we look back, you mentioned there too, through a different lens, right? I think when we're going through, it's really difficult to, especially if that's what we're surrounded with, right? That's what I, what I noticed, too, the people I was hanging out with. I always had a sense I drank a little bit different than them or for different reasons, but we weren't talking about it. So I didn't know, like for sure, but I knew a lot of my friends were able to, you know, graduate college was one thing they were able to do. And I wasn't able to do.

and I wasn't able to do. So I knew that that was a little bit different in that sense. And they were able to keep it together. I always had a tough time and it was such a struggle to keep things between the lines for me when it came to my drinking, even through my college years. So you get out of, you graduate school and you're getting out there and what some people might call the real world. I don't know.

It's overrated. Yeah, exactly. But a lot of people, too, that come on this show, talk about that college experience, right? How for a lot of people, it's wrapped up in sort of drinking. It's maybe a right of passes in a sense. And to think a life through college without drinking, and I know now what I know, a lot of people live that life, right?

Where they don't drink or they don't drink much, they're able to socialize, they're able to make it happen. But when we're in there, it might appear as, I've got a lot to lose if I remove myself from sort of this. drinking thing, right? Where am I going to land then? And it can become, I think, really scary. Yeah. Yeah. And that's a theme that persisted throughout beyond college and into my career as well. Could there even be ramifications professionally and financially if I'm not participating in this thing that is so widely accepted and embraced as what's normal? And I say that with air quotes.

And look, again, perspective, looking back, there's a certain bravery, I think, that it requires to make a different choice for yourself, to make the choice that you know is the right one for you that may be really uncomfortable for other people. I did not have that when I was 22. I didn't have that at 40. It's taken me years beyond that to really look at my whole risk-taking life and the chance of I've taken in the ways that I've shown up differently in different spaces to be able to say, I am going to do the thing that's right for me right now, even if it makes you uncomfortable.

And yeah, I didn't have that. You know, interestingly, I did date a guy in college who didn't drink. And I don't, you know, again, I wished I'd had the wherewith all at the time to talk to him about it. We never, it was just sort of a thing. He just didn't, he didn't drink. He would, I'm going to get the terminology wrong because I'm old at this point. but slam, chug, like soda, pop. Like, he wouldn't, everybody else would be chugging beers and he's chugging seven up or whatever.

And like, that was just his thing. And I really respect looking back that he had the wherewithal then to say, I'm still going to go to your party. I'm still going to show up, but I'm going to do it a different way. And I just was much more of that joiner mentality. I mean, again, I didn't even like alcohol necessarily. I didn't, I didn't love the taste of beer. I didn't love the taste of certain mixed drinks. I just wanted so much to make sure that I got the invite to the party and that I was included,

that I kept persisting. At the time, though, I wasn't really thinking about making a different choice for myself. That wasn't, it just wasn't on my radar. Yeah. So how do things look like for you moving forward when you finish up school and you get this? Your first job ever was in sort of the same business, insurance, right? Yeah. So I started working an insurance right out of college 25 years ago, and I still work in the industry today in a very different capacity.

But at the time, I was a fresh college graduate working with a bunch of other fresh college graduates. And so we very naturally bonded and formed friendships. And it was in that environment that I met my now ex-husband. But we met when we were in our early 20s and got married at 23, subsequently divorced at 30. And that was an interesting, formative experience for the first time I was living independently, but with him, and struggled at times to really balance how I had been raised in terms of having alcohol in the home. And what an appropriate amount of drinking. Like, again, I'm laughing at the way I was thinking at that point in my life. and not really able to reconcile that.

And just thinking that drinking is something that you do when you're young and carefree and that when you're a quote unquote grown up, that you shouldn't do that anymore. And then I got divorced and drank more than I ever drank, which is fascinating that I kind of, I've gone through different opinions and different approaches to alcohol and where alcohol it's in my life or anyone's life. And to have come out of a period in my marriage into this kind of sense of freedom again in my early 30s, it's fascinating. And I don't know what thread you want to pull from that little paragraph there.

But this is challenging to talk about at times because it really brings me back to some of these really tender moments when I was really trying to figure out. how to be an adult and how to be a partner and how to be, you know, all of these things that I'd never done before. And nobody's really showing you how to do it. So it's a lot of trial and error. Yeah. I'm with you on that. And do you feel it all throughout that time that your relationship with alcohol was confusing this process or, or no? Very. Yeah, very. Because it's, you know, Again, I had these very sort of strong beliefs instilled in me. And to be around alcohol then in a more controlled environment was just very confusing to me. I still had that all or nothing approach and I assumed that it was a phase and I would grow out of it.

Which is just it's bizarre and very uninformed. But it was confusing for me. Yeah. What did the relationship look like with alcohol in the, you know, say the 30s range there? Yeah. So I love, have a deep passion for live music. And so I moved from, I got divorced and moved from the suburbs of Chicago to the city of Chicago. So right kind of down in the heart of everything.

And I really fell in love with the live music scene and quickly made a great group of friends. and we were, you know, every weekend, it was shows and we were, we were just doing our thing. And it was a wonderful, wonderful chapter of healing for me coming out of my marriage. And really for the first time discovering who I was as a woman and as an independent thinker and decision maker and alcohol was a huge part of that scene. You know, you'd meet at the bar beforehand and you'd have a couple drinks and then you'd go to the show you'd have a couple drinks and then the show would end and you'd go have a couple drinks. And the next day, you'd feel not super great and you'd get up and do it again.

And maybe you start with brunch because now it's Saturday. So brunch turns into, you know, a whole night on the town. And that was what we did. And the alcohol, again, was never the focus, but it was always in the background. And there was always always a drink in my hand and always a drink in everybody's hand, frankly. There wasn't, I don't remember anybody in that time that was actively not drinking. And that's okay. You know, that's, it's the time that we were in and the people that I was hanging out with.

But what I struggled to reconcile is I loved it. I loved having that. We could go to any venue, any music venue in Chicago. And our little crew would be in the same spot. So if you got a ticket to the show and you didn't know anybody that was going to be there, if you just went to the left-hand side of the bar, you would see people. you knew. And it was, again, it was that community. It was the connection that music brought us, but also this, I don't want to say partying because it wasn't, the alcohol wasn't the focus.

But again, it was very much in the background. And that persisted. And one of the interesting things, you know, I made a decision after my marriage ended to take a break from dating. I knew any decision I made immediately following my divorce would have been a bad one in terms of my partner. I just needed to heal and work through some stuff. And so I took a year and then I did start dating. And I look back now with so much tenderness for who I was then, but also I'm a smart woman. I can't believe I didn't see it, but that alcohol was such an influence in all of the relationships. that I had after my marriage ended. We would, we either met at a party or we would go to a show and be

part of that sort of drinking culture. We'd go out on a Sunday for Sunday, Fun Day, and watch the game. So much so that there were so many conversations that were never had that needed to be had because we were under the influence and because we never let down that guard that we think alcohol gives us that courage to really get to the good stuff. And then, you know, then there's the petty, you know, all your senses are heightened. And so the tiniest little moment goes sideways and all of a sudden you're in a fight or your feelings are hurt and you don't know why and you don't really understand, but you've done damage in the relationship.

And if that proper repair isn't done, then that just keeps growing and exacerbating. And so I had several, you know, good. good relationships theoretically that probably should have ended well before they did. But there was comfort there and there was familiarity. And some of my least, you know, the moments that I just have, I can't believe that I sat in a cab. I mean, this was before Uber or Lyft, but rideshare and sat in a cab in a drugstore parking lot waiting to get a call from a guy that, you know, we only were ever together after a

night of drinking. And so waiting at midnight to get the call that he was home and ready for me to come over and just how much I devalued myself and my worthiness in that process by not being brave enough to say, I think I'm going to cut out the drinking and see what happens. And a lot would have been different. I can't know for sure. But it's been interesting since then. Yeah, deep dive there for you. I mean, I think that in knowing that, I mean, you're coming up on, well, we'll get to that where you're at in your journey now. But, you know, to get to that spot, I think we've got to break down some of these beliefs that maybe we kind of grew up with and what we feel our relationship with alcohol is. And you sharing this, I think, is doing exactly that. And if I had to

take a guess here, this is what has led you into where you're at now to this, you know, alcohol-free life. You know, it sounds like, and I'm only hearing, you know, I know these podcasts go quick for an hour. It sounds long, but I know I only hear, you know, one speck of sand on the beach, but it sounds like to me, a lot of life is around alcohol. It's maybe not the ultimate centerpiece to everything you're doing, but a lot of the things you're doing involve a drink. Did you find yourself being uncomfortable if you ever went out, you know, without drinking? Was that like in the cards or anything like that? No, I just, I didn't do that. I didn't necessarily. I didn't necessarily. drink excessively every time I went out, but I definitely had, I definitely participated. And

I don't remember ever being challenged about that. I don't remember ever saying, I think I'm going to not drink for the weekend and having people give me a bunch of grief about it. And, you know, there wasn't that, but that's a thing. And I've experienced that more professionally. During that time in my 30s, I was in a sales role. And so I had a lot of engagement with clients. a lot of socializing, a lot of happy hours, a lot of expensive steak dinners. And there was a much greater pressure in those environments to participate and a lot more of the shaming if you didn't. And so that was my job. And so in a big way, I felt the need to participate in order to keep up the optics that I could hang, you know, that I'm one of you. And you can tell me things

because I'm not judging you because there's so much, we assign so much meaning to whether people drink or they don't. And I think that's shifting. But at the time, I definitely felt like I had far more to lose than to gain if I would choose to make a different choice. Wow. That's powerful. What do you think is behind that, though, because it is.

I mean, that is the real deal. I've got a lot of people on the show in different industries, right? What do you think that is? When you sit down at a table, right, you're going to meet with some clients or you've got some clients, you've got some other people that maybe you work with and you're going to meet here. And somebody's not drinking. What do you think is so bothersome to other people about that somebody may be in that position? I'm just speaking to the stereotype. I don't believe this. I believe quite the opposite. But I believe there's a lack of trust in that person,

meaning they're taking notes, they're not obviously recording, but if they're not willing to let themselves go to this sort of ambiguous, vulnerable place, then there must be something wrong with them. They're too uptight. They're wound too tightly. And in an industry, insurance, which is largely built on trust, you want to lock arms with the people that think the way you think, that navigate the world the way that you do,

that will have your back in these situations, not the people that appear to be your opposition. And there is such a culture of drinking in the golf outings. The insurance industry loves to play golf. And so there's a lot of business transacted on the golf course over beers in the clubhouse after. Whiskey tastings, lots of happy hours. There is a huge faction of the culture in the insurance industry that really gravitates towards these mediums. we're trying to change that bit by bit by offering alternatives, but there's also a lot of

tradition. And so if you've had a golf outing for 75 years to say, oh, now we're going to do a pasta-making class instead of the golf outing as our fundraiser, like, that's probably not going to go over super well. And so one of the things that I do in my work now is talking about where are some of these things that we have been doing historically for years and years, you know, the way we've always done it, we say that a lot. Where is it not serving you anymore? I made the decision 12 years ago to eat vegan and it's stuck. And so a lot of organizations around the holidays will give,

it sounds kind of strange, but like a turkey, a frozen turkey, to every employee, you get a frozen turkey. And I laugh because a frozen turkey to me totally misses the mark. But alcohol can be the same way where you get a big deal at the office. And so you're gifted a bottle of champagne or you're gifted a nice bottle of red wine. And for someone who may be silently struggling or just making a different choice for themselves, that doesn't feel very inclusive. And so it's interesting how ingrained in our cultures and our history and tradition drinking can be. And to layer onto that, the work we do is stressful. We're dealing with the general public. They can be. They can be unhappy with us. Prices are going up. We can't help them. You know, insurance isn't everybody's

favorite thing. And so for many, many people, drinking has become an outlet for the stress that they're feeling. It's become their release. And so I get that. And I've certainly been there as well. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, thanks for sharing that too, sort of the inside thing there about when you sit down because I do hear that story quite a bit about people with, with, their jobs, the happy hours. I've also, like, I've never been in this spot, but the offices have the beer cards. And Friday, you just start pouring beer at 12 o'clock. And I've had a lot of people share that. And then it can be really tough if, you know, you're showing up sober and then you can maybe be separated from the pack. I think people really honestly, truly feel that fear,

that they could be, you know, outed from the pack because of their decision or choice to not drink. And it's unfortunate. But in proving, you've touched on a few things here about, hey, we're making progress in the right direction here, I think, with this. Yeah, and it's hard, I have so many thoughts. It's hard to not overlay more shame onto someone who may already be feeling their own silent shame. And so I try as best I can to remember that we're all on our own journey at different points with different desired outcomes.

And so it can be a bit of an echo chamber when I'm hanging out with some of my sober comrades in the insurance industry. Because we can kind of pile on that whole like, well, all these events and it's always alcohol focused. And it's like, you know, what I find is there are some people who are really struggling. And my decision to not drink and not participate in that way and be outspoken about it is very confronting for them. And so I say this with so much love, similar to when I'm talking about veganism, I don't care what you put in your body. I don't care if you drink alcohol. It has no direct effect on my life. What I care about is when I see you playing small in your life or making decisions because that's what everybody else is doing, even when it's outside of your own value system or your own desires for yourself.

And that's in alignment with everything I do in my business and in my life. But alcohol is just, it's become this, it's very much an elephant in the room because what is wild to me is we will hear through the gossip grapevine about somebody who got a DUI driving their company issued car the night before. And we'll shame them and we'll speculate and we'll wonder if they're going to get fired and all of the outcome that might happen. nobody's looking around at everybody else who did the same thing the night before and didn't get caught. And many people are flying under the radar. Many people are skating on by that are in that gray area. And it wasn't until I heard that term gray area where I really understood, you don't have to be in a ditch.

You don't have to be laid out on your bathroom floor. You don't have to be in the hospital. You don't have to be on your way to rehab to acknowledge something here needs to change. And so I'm feeling my own impostery feelings having this conversation with you because I didn't have a rock bottom like that. I made the decision to stop drinking from a very clear, okay, this is it. This is an experiment that I'm going to conduct on myself and see what happens. And so in many ways I don't identify in that way, but in many ways I do because I made the choice to stop drinking. And my life changed for the better.

And so I do think there's some commonality there. How we get there is very different. And sometimes where you are on your own journey, when you meet someone else who's also on their journey, it can be really supportive and validating and it can also be really confronting. And I try to remember that wherever I am and whomever I'm talking to. Yeah. Incredible insights, though. So you go through this. We got on a thing there because I really love that, though, about let's empower people, even if they're in those high pressure, high stress, places that there's a lot of alcohol. Let's just empower people that even if you're in that situation, that you can get to a spot where you can still exist there and live there and don't have to be controlled by,

you know, drinking. You can still show up and do what you need to do. And there's a lot of people in different careers and different jobs. And that might be part of what has to be done for that career, but you can, you know, be proud of your sober life and your choice and decision not to drink. I think that that's an incredible message for people. So you've had your divorce and your 30s and you're dating again and you're exploring things. Did you ever experience any consequences in a sense, you know, from drinking as you were going through your 30s there? You know, not, I'll say Big C consequences, not a lot of the things that I just kind of rattled off. But I definitely, in terms of relationships, absolutely, have made some poor choices about who and when and where and all of that good stuff.

And lost my voice, lost my ability to advocate for myself in very specific moments. And also professionally, I am very, very not proud of this. But I think it's a very real part of when you're at that fancy steak, dinner the night before or that show or whatever it is that you're doing and you have that third or fourth or eighth or tenth drink or whatever your number is when you know it's not going to end well. I've absolutely gotten up in the morning when the alarm went off to a raging headache and feeling horrible and rescheduled meetings for the day. And at that point, the alcohol was winning. I was not performing my job.

I mean, I worked from home. I had a ton of flexibility. Nobody knew that that was happening, but I knew that that was happening. And so I would spend the day drinking water and, you know, eating bad food, trying to get my body back to quote unquote normal. But with this overlay of so much guilt and shame that I had let myself get to that point that I couldn't do my job the way that I was expected to do. And so that feeling of anxiousness is the thing that I finally decided to try to unpack.

And it wasn't necessarily because of drinking. It was this general feeling like I'd shared that I'd had since I was a little girl of being on the outside, of being socially awkward, of being always in my head and always in my feelings and always analyzing and always thinking and processing. It was that need to really understand, is this how it's going to be for me forever? Or is there something here that I can do to change that for myself, for the experience that I'm having? And so were there ramifications, again, none in the like classic sense? But I think that's an important point as well, that making those quiet private decisions in those moments that nobody else needed to know about. I never needed to tell anyone

that I did those things because life just went on. It was of no consequence. But realizing, how many Sundays did I get up in the morning and go to hot yoga and go to the grocery store and get all the ingredients to make a really lovely dinner and then go meet my girlfriends for brunch? And then one mimosa turned into five. And all of a sudden, dinner was a cheeseburger and fries. and not the really lovely dinner that I had prepared for myself. And then really setting myself up for a garbage Monday and a garbage week. I mean, it's just, again, these are not like highly consequential experiences, but repeated over and over and over, so frustrating to myself that I put myself in this situation over and over and over again.

It's like I was letting myself down in a way that I wanted, better for myself, but yet kept perpetuating some of the same behaviors. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. It's always so interesting, right? And you brought it this gray area too, which is really a term I've only heard in the last maybe a couple years, if that ish type deal, grayish area. Yeah.

But I think it's so important to hit home on what you just said there. I mean, a couple things I pull from that is when you mentioned the guilt and shame part. And I'm really curious to get your thoughts on when that crept into your life and your routine with drinking. I mean, was that always there or was there kind of a time when that crept in and you really start to feel that heaviness? I think, you know, with age comes wisdom. And so I think it was in that period, probably later in my 30s, when I realized that I was making decisions from a place that, wasn't, I'll say in alignment, but wasn't authentic. It wasn't really true to me that I just found myself in situations that I knew weren't right for me. And then realizing, well, how did I get here?

And how much alcohol had been kind of the undercurrent. And, you know, I was in a relationship for a long time with someone. We spent a lot of time on the weekends at bars. watching the game. And I never advocated for, could we go to a museum? Could we go to a movie? Could we go somewhere else? Could we do something else? And so I found myself years into this relationship feeling like I had no voice and no opinion and wasn't taking up a whole lot of space. Now, totally, to his credit, I never asked for any of that. I just accepted that, well, this is what we do. And so because this is what we do, this is what I am going to do. And we care about each other and we're in a relationship.

And so I just struggled to really take up space. And I think life doesn't give us the ability. For some of us, maybe it does. But for me, it's never one moment. It's a combination of a lot of moments and then perspective when you're able to look at them and say, oh, this is what's going on. Well, in the middle of that relationship, I decided to leave my last corporate insurance job. and I took some time off and I ended up starting my consulting practice, which I run right now.

That was a huge process for me, the bravery that it required and the confidence it required to leave what I knew and venture out into the unknown. Well, that was also happening during this relationship where I felt like I didn't really have a voice. And so now I start finding my voice. I look back at the relationship and realize, this probably isn't super healthy for me or fulfilling. And so that ends. and then I start making decisions from a different place. My dear friend, Dr. Michelle Morkert, says that confidence isn't something you wake up with. It's something you realize you have when you look back over time. And I think that is a beautiful way to say I wouldn't have had the confidence to stop drinking when I was 22 or 32 or maybe even 42.

But because of all of the other decisions I'd made in my life with myself at the center of them, I was able to say like, hey, this is probably, going to be hard, but I have a lot of evidence around me that this is probably going to be okay for me. And I don't know how you shortcut that. I don't know how you speed it. Yeah, that's beautiful. And just thinking back to like that, you know, that gray area thing too. And a lot of people feel like they don't check the boxes too, right? Yeah. I don't check this box. Yeah, I don't check that. But I got a question the other day. You know, can I use the word sober, you know? And I'm like, well, I mean, it's up to you, really. I'm just some. random guy on the internet. I mean, I don't make the rules for all for all this stuff. I think wherever

you want to land with things, you land with things. But it's really interesting to see this kind of different approach to things, right, about it. And it's also so interesting when you share about the impact of alcohol on your life, it's like, you know, I'm kind of getting a vision for it here too of, you know, you mentioned being authentic and in alignment. And even though that's not a DUI maybe and that's not, you know, jail time and that's not losing your house or your job. Gosh, that's heavy to go through. You know, when you get to that spot, because I got that spot, I had all the other things, you know, and I think this is where some confusion lies too. I mean, I went to jail. I got in trouble time and time again. That stuff didn't even bother

me. Like, I didn't care about that. You get used to that stuff, right? I think a lot of people under the impression of, you know, you get the DUI, you have the kids, you'll just flip a switch. And for some, of course, and for others, no. But I got to that point, too, I think what you mentioned about. That honestly was heavier for me to carry than, you know, like going in the other consequences, knowing that I was raised this way with these values by really good people who did the best they could with what they had. Wasn't perfect by any means, but they honestly did the best. And here I am further down the road living this way, I could not sleep at night with that being my life anymore.

And when I look back, you know, perspective hindsight's 2020, looking back, that's what really sparked the change for me and the motivation is like, I want to live a life with a little bit of purpose. I had no idea at the time what that looked like. I was lost and confused. Like I think a lot of us are in that space. But I think there's a lot of credit to be given there that that is still a really tough place to live in, right? Where you know you have that like voice maybe or whatever it is. It says like, hey, you know, maybe there's something to look at here.

Maybe there's maybe this could really send you off to the next level. What do you think about that? I think I agree with you that. that the vulnerability that that requires is a lot. And for some people, it's too much and a place that they're not willing to go. And I respect that. I think this is kind of a softball answer, but having a forum like this where you can quietly in a place that feels safe and comfortable to you here, someone else's experience, and then weigh your own experience against theirs, can either validate where you are or help you disprove you.

where you are or just simply let you know that you're that you're not alone. And I don't know that there's another medium that does that as well as a show like this. And that's been my experience in unpacking totally a gray area drinker, never any heavy consequences. And I got this over and over again when I told people that I was going to stop drinking. You don't have a problem. Why would you stop drinking? You don't have a problem. And I think the answer to that is if you think you have a problem. If alcohol has created problems for you in your life or career or your relationships, trust yourself enough to do the discovery, to be uncomfortable for 30 days, which is what I did. And confront some of this. Do I have a problem? How bad is my problem?

It's not as bad as Larry's problem. It's not. I'm not Judy. Judy's got it worse than I do because that's the head trash, frankly, that a lot of us are living with every day and making decisions from that place. I do think it's brave to show up differently in spaces where you've been expected to show up differently. But that opens up other opportunities in many ways. I have friends now that I didn't have when I was drinking. I had friends when I was drinking that I don't have anymore. I have a beautiful, new romantic relationship with a partner. We don't drink together. That's just never been an option for us. So every awkward conversation we've ever had, any hard conversation, our first

kiss, our first moment of intimacy, all of that, totally sober. Hardest thing I've ever done, hardest thing I've ever done is to just sit in the awkwardness and the discomfort and the feelings, in the mess. And to be able to do that in partnership with someone else, I never could have done that had I not chosen to say yes to those 30 days that led me a couple of years ago down this path. So I don't know that it has to be radical change overnight. I think it can be a sense of curiosity and trusting yourself just enough to allow, like, you don't have to tell anybody either. Like, that's the wild thing about this. I didn't make a big social media post that I was going to experiment with sobriety for 30 days because I didn't know how it was going to go. And I'm glad. I'm so glad for the

way that it's gone. And I don't know what the future holds, but I know that this, this is the right path for me right now, but also respecting that we're all on our, on our own. Yeah, we're all on our own journey in a sense. And I think it's so true, right? We got to give permission to people no matter where you're at to at least check it out. I think whether we realize it or not, I think a lot of us have gotten curious or have been curious about it potentially before, right? We might meet a sober person. We might hear about a celebrity being, say, how in the heck, I never, come on, they're sober. You know, you see that stuff and it's like, you know, maybe I can do it, right?

And I think it's all about planting seeds. And I think throughout all of our journeys that there's seeds planted here and there. And it might not be directly related to sobriety, but maybe we have seeds planted about goals we want or relationships we're pursuing or promotions at work. And we also have this little underlying thing that says, you know what? waking up every Monday morning with a hangover is probably not going to get me to that next level. Like other people that are competing, they might be showing up 100. They may or may not be. But I think that we know if we want to really reach our full potential, that it's going to help us to not be drinking to show up for that.

Incredible. So let's get to the story about when you start this kind of 30-day curious thing. What does that look like? leading up to it and then to start it. Yeah, so leading up to it was, am I allowed to say a shit show? It was the end of, the end of 2022, kind of that weird week between Christmas and New Year's for those who celebrate and ended up meeting up with a girlfriend of mine in Kentucky. And we went out and we had a lot to drink and we didn't have enough to eat.

And I spent a really miserable night in the hotel bathroom that night. And the next day we went out and tried to find food and, you know, nothing was settling my stomach. And I just felt terrible the next day. And I just remember thinking, what are you doing? Like, you are not 21 anymore. This is not cute. You have nothing to prove. Like, all the motivation that I had up to that point for drinking not true anymore. And not ironically, because I don't believe that's the way the union. universe works. In a past life, I was an insurance agent. So I sold insurance products. And one of my clients was a business owner. And she is a sobriety coach. And I'm on her mailing list because she was a client and she'd become a friend. And so I knew that she had this 30-day sober program coming

up on January 1st. And this is like December 28th. And I just went back and looked, when did I actually buy it? It was on December 28th. So it was a beautiful program at the time. And I was a beautiful program. I travel full time, but I was in North Carolina, in an old farmhouse in the middle of nowhere, said a lot of privacy and solitude and a lot of downtime. And I just glommed on to everything that she shared and all of the other people that were in the community and made it feel like if I, that notion that if I felt like I had a problem, I had a problem. If I wanted to make a change, I could make a change regardless what anybody else thought. And so I did. And I took those 30 days and didn't really have to detox, if you will, in the traditional sense because I wasn't an

everyday drinker. I wasn't a chronic drinker. I definitely had a pretty gnarly hangover that I needed to get over. But it opened out my eyes to like, okay, what are the things that are holding me back? What other people think? How I'm going to show up at some of these social functions? My friend groups are going to change. What if I would identify the absolute worst case scenario? I let myself go to that dark place. What if all of those things came true if I made this choice permanent? And of course, some of them did and some of them didn't. And what happened was so much lightness and not darkness like I thought there would be. But I just decided to stay with it. And I decided after the 30 days to go another 30 days in six months. And it was about the six month mark when I was in Montana

and I went on Tinder, and Tinder has you categorize yourself with drinking. Are you sober? Are you sober curious? Do you drink occasionally? Are you an everyday drinker? Oh, wow. I didn't know that. Yeah, I picked sober curious because I thought, I don't know that this is a permanent choice, but I want to see, I want to see what happens if I, if I don't lead with drinking. And so I had a beautiful experience, and I met a lot of really wonderful men that were, sober themselves or didn't care if I drank. And I realized based on the fact that I had a propensity to attract men who did drink, that I was only going to respond to the ones who didn't drink. So I wanted to try a sober, sober relationship. And I was okay if they identified as a

problem drinker, if you will, or they were just curious like me. And it ended up, I did a lot coffee dates. Montana's beautiful. It was summertime. I did a lot of hikes, a lot of river walks on the riverfront. I had never dated like that. I had only ever gone out for drinks. Like dating in Chicago, that's what you, that's what you do. And so it was beautiful. And I met some really wonderful like-minded people and it really opened my eyes and validated for me that you're not going to be miserable and alone. You're not going to be a social castaway. You're not going to be excluded. You might actually find partnership and companionship that is kind of what you were missing before. And I would say in general, my wisdom to all my girlfriends that are dating,

especially in middle age, is take alcohol off the table, at least in the beginning, because the clarity that it gives you. And it also lets you know where the other person is as well. If they're really, convinced that, you know, every date has to include drinking, then that might be a sign or an indicator of what might be to come in terms of the dynamic of your relationship. So it's been fun. It's been fun. It's been challenging, but also really rewarding. Yeah. When you say challenging, is that the whole thing going on here in life? Or are you just specific with that dating experience? You know, I think anytime we choose to show up wholly and expose the messy parts of our lives and ourselves, you risk the, I mean, there's a risk of being criticized or judged or feeling less than. And so that's scary. Like that has been a very, very focal point in my career, but also my new relationship, which isn't so new anymore. But when you're with someone, whether, it's a romantic partner or the people you choose to surround yourself with in general,

who's either on the journey with you or just on their own journey of self-acceptance and self-awareness, you can see who's done the work. I'm sure you see this all day. There's the people that talk a good game and then there's the people who have really sat down in the darkness with the messy parts and wanted to really understand and do that deep learning. And And those are the people that I choose to spend my time with personally and professionally. So I'd say both. Both things have been challenging, but also a lot more clear that the friendships that have gone by the wayside were deeply rooted in drinking.

That's what we had in common. And so I miss some of them for the memories and the good times. But when I think about the ways that those relationships really enriched my life, fortunately, been able to make some new ones that are much more fulfilling in that way. So it's not easy. Yeah. What do you find have been a couple outside of that, what you mentioned there, is there a specific thing you could put a finger on that's been tough for you throughout this? I think, ooh, a couple things. So the labels are challenging because I do feel like so, isn't totally accurate, but at the same point, it's very clear. And so I do use that word,

but again, talking about stereotypically how we define problem drinking, that wasn't me. But that's also my second point, is that to stand in an environment where you have made a choice to stop drinking because you've identified that you have a problem when you're surrounded by people that are drinking more problematically than you are, it's really uncomfortable to be that person that's like, nope, I drew the line. I'm done with that while they're all still either deepen their own addiction, if that's the case, or just not interested in re-evaluating their relationship. And so I don't spend a lot of time in those places, but we still, we live in such an alcohol-focused culture because so much of what we're going to be. We're not going to be a

we take in as consumers is focused on alcohol. And so there's a lot of reasons how we got here. I'm certainly not the expert to be talking about them. But anytime we upset the norm, anytime we go against the grain, it's going to make people uncomfortable. And so being the cause of that discomfort for people has been, it's been a, it's been an experience. And it's not always easy. And I'm really, I'm proud of the choices I'm making for me, but also want to recognize that they might be challenging for others to receive. Yeah, 100% for sure. That's what we see everywhere to commercials for the sports and blah, blah, blah, the posters, everything. But I think it takes a really special person, I think, in a sense, to realize that even though you weren't, in a lot of people,

are identifying with this gray area. You weren't experiencing all this other stuff. You decided to make a change. And what I find so interesting about this is that even though it wasn't all the way on one side of the spectrum, if we want to coin it up that way, you're still experiencing so many benefits. And my buddy Todd came on here and he has a book called, I didn't believe it either. talks about this, you know, gray area drinking, moving and shaking in a lot of ways in his life.

And he didn't believe, he has a hard time believing it. It did it first anyway. How much his life has improved since the decision. Yeah. I love the title of his book that I would say the same thing. Like I, and I didn't want to believe it. I mean, I'm the first one. Like, please don't take that away from me.

Don't, you know, there's so many other ways. ways that I restrict, if you will, in my life and learning about the connection between my anxiety and drinking. It was like, man, I don't want to not drink, but I also want to feel better and I want to feel more in alignment. And so I was bummed a little bit after the 30 days and I felt good and I felt clear. And, you know, looking back, I think anytime we start showing up differently, there's some built-in fear. You know, you just don't know how it's going to go. And I think hearing some stories and anecdotes from the other side, if you will, is helpful. I think it can fall a little flat, too. Like, it's true that I had my best year in business the year I stopped drinking. True story.

Like, I don't know that there's a correlation or not, but it's a fact. True story that I met my wonderful partner not drinking. I don't know if there's a, I mean, I can't say that there is or there isn't, but I can say what I gave up when I stopped drinking was worth what I got in return, if that makes sense. So all the not just the hangovers, but when we talk about the connection and the being included and that thing that I was craving for all those years and decades, frankly, if I had to lose some of that in order to find what's in front of me right now, then worth it, totally worth it. But you can't know that it's not going to be true for everyone. But I love all those

anecdotal pieces of evidence because they sure do stack up over time if you let them. Yeah. I mean, we can't say for sure, right? Your best year in business. And then, you know, your partner in all these other good things. But it's like, I don't know, my gut feeling tells me, without that decision, for me personally, I'd be a little bit of a different place, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And the thing too, I hear in so many people's stories. And it's obviously not a forever and always or guaranteed type deal. But I hear a lot of people that are cruising along, you know, kind of like your story. They're cruising along. Something happens in their life. Loss of a loved one or, you know, having kids and in struggling after that process or something happens, right? And not, I don't want to say all of a sudden, but in a week's time or a month's time or a year's time, they're drinking. relationship changes completely. And it went from this thing that they felt was fairly manageable. It turns over on them. And that's why I taught with people, too, like, the longer you stay in the game, you know, it might not happen to a lot of people. But there are some people out there, too,

who share that story that things were all right. And then all of a sudden, you know, this traumatic event happened. And this thing slipped on its head. And I can't quit. I can't put it down. You know, I'm always like, you know, if you can get ahead of this thing, kudos to you. I mean, let's do it. Yeah, that's a really good way to look at it. And I don't know, you know, not, I don't have the right credentials to validate or debunk this. But having alcoholism in my family, I always assumed gave me a higher propensity or likelihood that I might struggle with addiction. And I don't, I don't know that that's true or not.

But it was something that definitely was in the back of my mind, knowing how close it, it is in our family that maybe I need to worry about this or be aware, you know, am I one traumatic event away from being in that rock bottom place that we've talked about? You know, it didn't happen for me, but maybe it would have. And this is the moment where I'm just realizing like, huh, maybe I did, I did prevent or circumvent some hardship in my life had I not made this choice when I did. It's also, there's a lot of pressure with that because I'm making the right decision for me today. And I believe for me forever today.

But I don't know what the future holds. And I think we struggle with absolutes, especially when it comes to, you know, people that are active in addiction. And, you know, this is the right decision for me in my life in this moment. And the proof is everywhere. But, you know, you don't know. And I think that's where the journey part of it comes from. Yeah. I'm with you on that, 200%.

I mean, the way I look at it too is like, I don't want to get dark or anything here. But I mean, tomorrow's not guaranteed. Right. As far as the way I look at things. So it's really easy, you know, just with time for me to really stay grounded in today, be present for today. And hopefully tomorrow's going to take care of itself in one way or another. but if I get out like a year or forever from now, this is going to be my life. I'm just like, oh my goodness, man, reel it back in, right?

This is a little bit much. Sometimes just getting through the day can be tough enough. Yeah. You know, not for me where I'm at with just not drinking, but just life in general, right? Being a dad, being a husband, you know, all these things, right? I'm learning a lot of this stuff as I go, right? A lot of it as I go and I use the tools that I learned on my journey of sobriety and therapy and connection and community and leaning on supports and how to ask for help.

You know, all these things I learned in sobriety. I never did any of this stuff before. How to communicate, how to talk about feelings, how to be uncomfortable and sit there. And it's like, oh, my gosh, I can't do it anymore, but just push through and do that. I'm thinking about somebody Meg right now that's, you know, they're in this spot, right? They're living this life, right? I don't know if I'm checking all the boxes. My drinking looks the same as everybody around me.

I know personally that it's not where I wanted to be. It's not what I wanted to be. It's kind of gradually maybe getting worse. But I'm able to talk myself kind of off the ledge in a sense about, you know, it's not that bad. You know, what message do you send out to somebody who's kind of right there in this gray area? Yeah, I'm really, really careful in the advice giving column because I'm, I need as much as I give. And so take it for what it's worth. But I think that curiosity, again, is worth pursuing.

And taking off the pressure of this has to be an all or nothing decision. But can you set a personal challenge for yourself, whether it's time-based or you're limiting your alcohol intake, something that is going to allow you to explore that curiosity without consequence? Because we can't separate where alcohol fits in any of our relationships. They're all commingled. You stop drinking and it's going to have a ripple effect at work and your family and your neighbors and your friends. And it's going to affect all of those relationships.

And so I would say explore quietly before you make your big grand gesture. Because at the end of the day, it's your relationship with yourself that matters the most and that you're at peace with your decision and that you trust yourself enough to make the decision that's right for you. And everybody else is going to figure it out. They're going to figure it out or they're not. And then that's going to be okay. That's going to be a decision too. And I don't want to oversimplify. But I'm remembering that day when I hit that button on that 30-day sobriety program and just being so grateful that I was alone for that experience and that I wasn't navigating a lot of inputs from other people, that I was able to have that experience just for

myself and to really listen to myself and be honest with myself and then see where it went from there. And this is true of any, I have a bit of a like all or nothing mentality when it comes to decision making, but I think this is a case where you're right to feel like you want to look before you leap a little bit. Because it does change. It changes everything. It really does. And that can be really confronting, but it can also be really beautiful. So, Yeah, I don't know that that's like the best, the best most poetic answer, but I don't think there's a perfect poetic way to go about this. And I still will argue it's not up for anyone else to decide if you have a problem or you don't.

And so if you're an occasional drinker and you don't feel great the next day after you've had a glass of wine or two and you decide you don't want to drink anymore, that's fully within you're right. And I think that's a. a beautiful version of sobriety too, especially in this day and age when the sober curiosity movement is such a thing. And we're, you know, there's dry January and they're sober November and there's, I mean, every month has a brand now for not drinking. And it's like, well, let's just string the whole year together and see where we go. We'll see what happens. And yes, fascinating, fascinating stuff. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for jumping on here and sharing your story. It's been incredible to be on the other end here and navigate through this.

I mean, I just think it's such a powerful story for people because I have these conversations every day. And I've been doing this on Instagram for so long. It's so interesting because I'll get a message from somebody and they'll say, I got one week or two weeks sober. And, you know, I'll scroll back to the message. They sent me their first message five years ago. Yeah.

Their first one about, hey, you know, I kind of think, you know, my life could be better with that alcohol. And sometimes it takes time. And it's not anything that we want for anybody because it can be painful. It can be a little bit of a struggle. But sometimes it takes time for us to realize what direction we want to go and in what impact that this is really having on our life. But what I take away from your thing there at the end is get started somewhere. And I think that's incredible about being curious and get started and just start asking yourself some of those questions. and maybe check out a book or two and say, you know, can I, what do I think here? Listen to a show and get a perspective.

Maybe that's different because I think a lot of us relate with what we talked about a bit here. Our circles are probably doing a lot of what we're doing. That's kind of the people we associate with in life. It's kind of going with the flow and that we relate to. So I think that get started and maybe somebody who's not in the immediate circle and is kind of doing the same stuff would be helpful to maybe bounce an idea or two off of. and if you have the thought that you wanted to give it up, lean into that. Lean into it. But thank you so much again.

Anything, Meg, before we close. Oh, gosh, just thanks for having me, but thanks for doing what you're doing. There's so much power in these stories in a forum like this, and you're a gift. So thank you for having me. Yes, thank you so much. Well, there it is another incredible episode here on the podcast. Let me know, guys. send me a message if you're able to relate with this gray area drinking

and what sort of this middle ground looks like and feels like. I think there's a lot of people that are really interested or curious in making a change and their drinking might fall in line with what Meg's talking about here. And I would love to just hear your thoughts on that. So send me a message over on Instagram or an email. Either works. I'll drop Meg's contact information down on the show notes below. If you want to send her a note and just tell her thank you.

from everybody here at Sober Motivation, we appreciate you sharing your story. A lot more incredible stories to come. If you haven't left a review yet, please jump over to Apple or Spotify and get that done right away. And I'll see you on the next one.