SoccerWise - MLS Cup Preview w/Paul Tenorio (The Athletic)

Episode Date: December 4, 2025

Soccerwise are prepping for the biggest game of the year and who else to do it with than the biggest writer in the game. Paul Tenorio (The Athletic) joins Tom & David to talk about the topic he literally wrote on a book on “The Messi Effect.” They preview MLS cup from the X-factors to what it would mean to both clubs if they do or don’t win. Then Paul walks them through how the league is trying to advance globally, Messi’s influence on those moves, and the biggest factors that could help or hurt the league going forward. And never not grinding Tom has a staple of scoops in the “Ice Cream Shop” from Philly’s record signing to the return of Cade Cowell.Pre-order Paul’s book today at this link5:01 MLS Cup On Field Preview18:20 Paul Tenorio Joins The Show Talking Messi Effect & MLS's Fight To Grow48:50 What Would MLS Cup Mean To Miami And What’s Their Future?56:38 What Would MLS Cup Mean To Vancouver And What’s Their Future?1:03:14 Ice Cream Shop1:0325 Philly Record Signing Striker1:06:40 Cade Cowell Heading To NYRB1:09:07 Chicago Big Center back Signing1:11:26 Zimmerman Replacement In Nashville & Maybe Paul Rothrock

Welcome everybody to soccer-wise, David Goss and Tommy Scoops with you for a massive show. It is the last show before MLS Cup. Inter Miami against the Vancouver White Caps on Saturday, around 2.30 p.m. Eastern Time. I say around. Around. I think we all know what an MLS TV time means. And at 307, when the game finally kicks off, we will all feel very comfortable with the world we've all become very familiar with. We're going to be in the building, Tom.

We've got some big names to join us for this show to help us preview this as well, maybe a little bit more from the Inter-M Miami side. Because we've got Paul Tenorio coming up in a moment. He is out there publicizing. his new book, which is on pre-sale. You can buy it already called the Embessie Effect. You can get it on Amazon or bookshop.org. So we're going to talk to him

about what he's learned, writing this, and what all this means, because I think for me sometimes, Tom, like, I'm so far in the weeds that I have to be reminded. I actually had a thought yesterday and was talking to someone about it where I was like, is this how different is this from

Javinko and Toronto being a good team? And Vela and L.A. see being good team like this feels kind of run of the mill to me but i think that's where paul conversation who's seen it from a big picture for the last year writing this book is necessary yeah i'm just waiting for for tutorials next book on paul rothrock this is the appetizer for that um and the free agency chase that that will shape the league um no so you said it in the interview david that you likened it to the david beckham book uh that grant wall wrote that is i think the only seminal text

on MLS that every MLS fan absolutely needs to read. There are a lot of other things that are very good. There are a lot of things that I would recommend. But I think that the only book that crosses into an absolute need for an MLS fan and particularly one who cares about the history of this league is Grant Wall's book on Beckham. Paul's book on Messi is going to be the second and is going to be a must have a must read for anybody who cares about this league. And obviously we are talking to MLS diehards listening to this show, but casual, even sports,

fans like this is a book that is going to be very interesting and like you said the big picture stuff and i would joke with paul about like you right like he's he's always like his brain works so well in putting all these strands together big picture stuff and i'm like yeah dude but who do you think miami's going at at centerback if no owen picks where is danie lava going and pa you know what i mean like out of my face like um i don't know i'm i'm so excited for this book again, Paul won't listen back to this part of the show so now I can actually say the really nice things about him. Paul is the best American soccer writer.

We have full stop period. He hates when I say it. So I love to say it in front of him, but he won't hear this. So just everybody's got to get that. And it's a pleasure to talk to him about it. Yeah, we talked for about 30 minutes, which will come up in just a moment. Could have done two hours.

Miss the allocation disorder. Always wanted to be on. We love you, Sam Staschol. Shout out to Fort Lauderdale and Sammy Staskel's home away from home. But we got a lot to talk about. We'll dig into Vancouver first, as well as just the game. And then we'll have Paul on.

And then news, like the moment we stopped recording from the first show of the week, Tom, it feels like news has broken like every three hours. So we have a whole segment of off-field news, coaches and executives. And then we've got a whole segment of players, including a record-breaking signing for Philadelphia. Yeah, it's a very busy time. this is always the juxtaposition like these few weeks and particularly as we're getting to MLS Cup because the moment the game ends

and the confetti is being poured on the field for whoever wins. I think that they would do that for Vancouver. Actually, I don't know that. If there's confetti, if there's champagne in whichever locker room, be the more apt metaphor here. It's fully off-season for all 30 teams,

but right now it's off-season for 2018. So in my world, obviously things are starting to get crazy in transfer news, but first and foremost, it's MLS Cup. So let's talk about Emily Scott. We did a kickback committee episode that came out yesterday. We had a guest on from the Black Harrens, which is one of the supporters groups in Miami,

as well as a podcast up in Vancouver and Michael McCall. So if you want a little bit in depth from those two point of views, you can go there and listen to that. And obviously we talked about all the semifinals, conference finals, whatever you want to call it, and all that action in the last show. But, you know, I came into that one time and I come into this one saying,

We're in for a treat. Both these teams open up. Both these teams go and play. My expectation is this will be one of the great games we've ever seen. And with the stakes, one of the great MLS cups that we've ever seen. Since we did the last show, as you've sort of sat on this game, and we have no new injury information. So we have no ideas change, at least, from a lineup point of view.

What are the keys? What are you most focused on? On a macro sense, I've spoke to some sporting directors, some head coaches and a couple players and the refrain from around the league is these are the two best teams in MLS and you don't always get that in the final because weird things happens in playoff sometimes the two best teams are in the same conference but LAFC was the only other one that people mentioned and obviously LFC in Vancouver played so this final I think is going to be a great representation of the 2025 MLS season this game I have really high hopes for

Obviously you have the star power You have Messi You have Mueller You have for Brian White You have Jodi Alba Sergio Bousquetz Rodrigo de Paul Andre's Kubas

Like these are black Tristan Blackman Those are stars Like they're not the same level To like the casual fan Like I think everybody listening To this knows how great Some of these players are

On Vancouver around Mueller So that's awesome Because finals are Tipified by individual performances On the game style side of things it's going to be great. This is going to be Miami's hardest test in the playoffs,

and I don't think it's going to be close, because Vancouver, not only will they want the ball more than the teams that Miami has played yet so far, they actually have the ability to say, no, Miami, we're taking the ball, and then we're going to keep it now. None of the teams that they played in the East

had that capability, even if whether or not they had that desire. When you look back at the Cockcaf Champions Cup matchup, that's how Vancouver absolutely thrashed them. They steamrolled them. They dictated the game because of their ability to say, like, when we want the ball, we're going to, Kubas is going to go win it, or Burrhalter's going to keep it in a difficult spot, or we're going to do a couple short passes and then bang, hit you, get a winger isolated.

Miami are much better than they were in May. We hash that out on the last show. The cliff notes are Oscar Stari got benched for Rockless Rios Novo. Rios Novo comes up with a huge save against NYCFC. The game ends 5-1. It was about to be 2-2 if Riosnovas didn't make that save. Tommy's Alvarez has been, you know, bench to the shadow realm. That has helped the defense just by default.

Noah Allen and Maxi Falcone are a really good central midfield pairing. Louis Suarez is going to get the most headlines. I think that was the hardest and most bold thing that Javier Maschranos had to do. I don't think it's the most impactful. I think it's those defensive changes that they've made because if you have Lino Messi on the field and Louis Suarez, the attack, there are no questions. But against the ball, another thing that I'm really looking at is Baltazar Rodriguez. He's quietly been very, very good and really important.

to this team in the playoffs because he's playing that like left central midfield role but he's like a shutler. Jor Diablo goes forward, he's holding that space behind him or he's the one in transition offense on the rare occasions now that Miami are in a bad spot and have the ball turned over in a bad spot. What I will say is this is going to come down to the in central midfield as easy it is and maybe as correct as it would be to say Lino Messi because he's Lino Messi or say Thomas Moore or Brian White with a special attacking player having a special moment. I think the way this game is going to be dictated is by Audris Kubus and Sebastian Burrhalter

versus DePaul Bousquet's and Boutsas Rodriguez in the midfield. One of the things that intrigues me and I'm going to be looking at in the first 25 minutes is I don't know that Miami has more than one speed. And Vancouver, like you said, they can dominate the ball, but they can also win a game sitting in a mid-block and pressing, which is what we saw in San Diego.

So Vancouver has, I think, two options of the way they come out where Miami doesn't. And so what I'm going to be curious to see is what's Esper Sornson's decision. And how do they sort of play that out? Both ways, they're going to be bold. They're going to take chances. They're going to create chances. And they're going to be aggressive. It is, is a dominant possession and you move your backline high up the field and you try

and knock it around and say to yourselves, we don't think Miami defensively can contain us throughout long segments of pass and movement and all of that or do you say to yourselves can we sit in a little bit more like we did against San Diego can we make Miami make some mistakes and make and pick the right times to go after it and then we go and press and I think Joe wrote about this really well in back yield like Vancouver are one of the better pressing teams in the league it's not discussed in the same way because they've given up the least goals and because they're so good in possession they are also the only one that Miami has

played in the playoffs no one else. Cincinnati has struggled with it this year. Nashville is not a high pressing team and NYCFC is not either. So that's another wrinkle that Vancouver brings where you talked about they're the best team. They're playing in the best form. They also have multiple ways that they can play against you. And the other thing that I talked about on the Monday show is I think Brian White poses poses a different challenge to that centerback pairing, one that I think Noah Allen will struggle with because he's undersized and he's a young player and that's not exactly the matchup where I think he thrives and one where Falcone has mistakes in him and normally has

the recovery in him as well and that's been the case over the last few weeks but Brian White puts a consistent pressure on you that's different right he's always pressing that long touch in case you take it he's always tracking back to the goalkeeper he's always cutting an angle and shadow marking when he closes a goalkeeper down where if he plays the wrong pass the chance is there, and then everyone's following him as well. So I just think Vancouver have a couple of different cards they can play. All of it will remain their ethos and the feel of who they are, but in different ways, which Miami has to anticipate for and figure out how to work through it.

And I think over the first 25 minutes, as we start to see it play out, we're going to understand if Vancouver made the right decision or didn't. And then always at the end of the game, you ask. And Sorensen's like, yeah, no, that wasn't the plan. The players got sucked in and they went and did what they wanted to do. and that's just the case. So you talked about Central Midfield. I have talked about it, and I talked about it on Monday.

To me, it's the wide players. It's Sabi and Ali Ahmed. It's Edir Ocampo. And then on the other side, right? It is Jordialva, getting a forward and getting into the attack. And there's so much potential in both of these spots. But to me, the key for Vancouver is making Miami pay if they leave space open and they decide they're going to come after you.

and they decide that they're going to attack. That's the whole ball game to me, is can you make Miami suffer for the things they're good at? Like, can you take advantage of the openings that that leaves you? No one has done it except Nashville one time in the postseason. And to me, that's the ball game. If Vancouver can do that and score those chances, they'll set themselves up to be in a good spot. If we walk away from it saying, like, well, remember Vancouver had those two early chances they couldn't put away, then Miami's the one lifting the trophy.

Yeah. And that is what finals come down to, right? It is the moments. And I think that the tactical framework is what will present those moments and make it, again, listen, Messi can do something out of nothing. Brian White or Andreas Kubas, like the moment that he had against San Diego. And I'm glad you brought that up, that that wasn't like a classic 2025 Vancouver style in that game. But like they went up 2-0 after 11 minutes. And then it'd be silly to not change. out you're going to play because you can hurt the team in different ways because of the game state. I hope that Vancouver try to get on the ball. I think it is futile if you, and they won't do this, but it is futile if you say, we're going to get a really strong defensive structure, couple banks of four, wherever we draw our line, and make it really hard for Miami to break us down. Guess what? Miami will break you down. And Jasper Swenson knows this. So whether it is pressing a little bit higher, I think the best way to get at this Miami team is with the ball. The word that you're using there futile? Yeah. You kept saying futile and I was like,

futile. Am I hearing this right? And I just making sure that you were talking about futile. Because I saw you, you rubbed your hands because we're not live on YouTube. You rubbed your hands. And then I saw you typing with a smile. And then I was trying to think of like, it's like in boxing. It's just like, oh, where am I exposed? Like something's coming in here. Well, for starters, that denotes futile. which Andrew Weeby will be excited about this will be his favorite part of the show. Also, come on, dude, I'm not coming at you in any way. Because people can't

see us, and I'm sure Morgan will find a way to get this on social media. I'm recording in my sister and her new husband, congratulations, mazel tough to them, their apartment, and they ordered custom disco balls for their wedding, and I've got the lower torso one

with a little heart tattoo above the buttocks, which says SNA forever, because shout out to love, you know? That's delightful. I'm so happy that you had that sitting by yeah. I might have to bring it to the live show, which by the way, please bring it to legends. We will be live during the entire World Cup draw myself, Claudia Pagan, Eric Crackauer, Heath Pierce. We've got an interview with Eloy Room, Brianna Pinto, one of our own and kickback committee will be joining us who, of course, was the one who gave the speech at the

bid seven years ago to get the World Cup here in the United States, Mexico, in Canada, alongside Alfonso Davies and Diego Linesz. We've got some other interviews with experts around the world, Africa, South America, and we're going to be talking about the soccer for the most part, which I think is going to get lost in the draw experience and trying to make us all enjoy it again as much as we can because it feels like it's going to be a bit of a sideshow and based off tickets and pricing and everything else,

it feels like we're being pushed out of the experience. So, reminder, that will be live on YouTube. We launched a new platform Kickback 26. we have podcasts about all 48 qualified nations. We only have 42 so far that we are rolling out. We already launched, I think, eight or 20 of them this week. We've got social media videos. We've got a newsletter and all of that as well.

Now that I did that plug, Tom, when we get together on Monday to recap MLS Cup, who will we be talking about having lift the trophy? Vancouver White Cups. I honestly think that they're going to. to go into Miami and they're going to win because this is a team of destiny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I don't want to say fairy tale. Fairy tale denotes that it's some sort of luck that there's, that that's a Cinderella moment

and that, you know, midnight might strike and they might turn. So that would take away from the level of detail and the level of everything that they've earned to get to where they are. This is such a magical season for the Vancouver White Cops. going to Miami and May was probably the high of their season and the Canadian championship but like they've won the Canadian championship before

going to Miami and doing what they did when that was when the tide turned on everyone being like oh shit this team is for real this isn't just a nice story this team is for real to retool how they did in the summer because of transfers and injuries and throughout it all

to still play the way that they are the low point was the Cruz Azul loss where they got sprinted off the field in a really difficult environment and a difficult game in the concave champions cup final that experience will serve them very well for endless cup and i'm going to sound dumb picking against messy and everything that this team is because miami are playing better than i think that they have in the entire messy era over these last three games but i really do believe the vancouver white cops team of destiny i think i said that the first time we talked about

this game, and I see all of it, and I love Vancouver's ability to come in to this building and this atmosphere with experience already, with confidence, with the understanding that if they play as well as they can, they'll win, which isn't always the case in a matchup. I just think back to Tristan Blackman's struggles over the last 30 minutes before he got the red card against L.A.F.C. And I just think back to all this Vancouver team has gone through. And I worry that this is just one step too far to travel cross country against messy in that atmosphere in that crowd it's going to be perfect at kickoff but it's going to be a warm outdoor atmosphere it's going to be a miami setting not a vancouver setting and just with the form silvetti and iende are in and the inability to have

any mistakes in this game i just wonder if it's a step too far to say cc final canadian championship a run through the playoffs and still have the energy to play your best form in this last game against a really, really good team. So I think I've talked myself back over to Miami over the last few days in just thinking about this game and the form that they're in. But as we said, we think it's going to be the one of the best that we've ever seen. And who better to talk to about it than the biggest journalists in American soccer, as well as the man who literally wrote the book on it.

You know him as Paul Tenorio. He is the author of The Messy Effect. It is going to be in stores on June 9th. It's already available for pre-sale on Amazon or Bookshop.org if you like to go local like we do and, you know, support independent. Paul, this is sort of the culmination, a lot of what you've been working on, and we're excited to have you on to talk about it. Yeah, no, thanks so much for having me on. And I agree. This is, it's kind of tying a book that I've already finished writing in a bow.

But that's what Appleogs are for. And, you know, I think it's, I think it is kind of the meeting point of the on-field effect of Messi with kind of what that means for off the field and the short-term legacy and what that means for the long-term legacy. A lot of what you guys do with the athletic is sort of bridging the gap between American soccer, international soccer, European soccer, all of that. What is the explainer to what's happening right now? Like when you try and put in context for other people that aren't in the weeds, talking about, you know, Tony Chani and Greg Barhalter crew days and all that type of stuff.

What is this moment mean? Tony Chani. What a reference. What a reach. I'm pretty sure expansion draft for Orlando City when I'll have covered in. Not to go. Wait, wait. That is the bona fides of a capital J.

Yeah, look, I think what I tried to do in the book is lay out, like, how much the landscape is changing in real time. Like right now, over the last dozen years, I really look at the turning point of soccer in America as 2013 when NBC took over the Premier League rights. And the audience that that created, treating soccer like a marquee product, pulling fans in the way that they presented it.

And it made soccer mainstream. It made soccer cool. And so there was already this sort of like niche bubble that we live in in Major League Soccer of fans that really care about the game even care about their local teams. But I think we saw that bubble expand. And there were diehards that were already watching the Premier League and watching European football, of course.

But that kind of mainstreamed it. And since that moment, we've seen these kind of, I guess, like, marking points where you have soccer crossing over into pop culture with Ted Lasso and then Welcome to Rexum. You have the most popular global Champions League show being an American show on CBS and going viral and all the biggest names in soccer want to come on to the U.S.-based CBS show.

You have the relevant lawsuit, which is trying to bring games into our backyard, meaningful games. You have Copa America and the World Cup and the Club World Cup being played here. You have Liga MX and Apollo that are discussing a deal that I think could make maybe be the biggest threat to immediately soccer if it happens.

And you have USL voting to bring in ProREL. You have the NWSL, which is going through these kind of interesting, moments of growth where it's like where do we follow MLS's path where do we break off on our own and all of that's happening like right now today and MLS is in the middle of that and it's created in my opinion a sort of existential moment for the league of like how do we compete truly on both the global football marketplace that is more than ever now in the American marketplace and compete with the American sports landscape

And Messi became kind of this spark where I think MLS was kind of MLS owners, MLS stakeholders, where they were chilling. You know, coming out of COVID, they had pushed the CBA back twice. It was going to expire years after the World Cup. They were chilling. And Messey comes and he's such an enormous success that it accelerates conversations about, okay, we have to start doing something to capture this moment, but really this moment has taught us

that we can actually have a global football brand. We can matter in soccer beyond just our little niche fans. And in fact, the business has grown beyond what that local business that's become a really strong local business can sustain. Expansion fees are dried up.

Most stadiums are sold out. The suites are sold out. The commercial sponsorships, you can only charge so much for them. So you're hitting that ceiling of what you can make local. okay well guess what you know what's not hitting a ceiling spending on players agent fees so the cost of business is going up and the revenue is not and so you have to figure out how do we how do we start

to make this business work and i think that's where we are right now for major league soccer and that's why we're seeing the news coming out of palm beach that we saw of some of these changes that really and truly messy started those conversations so paul what can saturday be for the league in terms of this marquee match with Lino Messi in MLS Cup against Thomas Mueller and what should be the first thing we're talking about. I think it's going to be a really great game on the field. Yeah, I think it's like, I mean, it's either this or the LASC game would have been kind of the perfect advertisement for the product, right?

You have two stars, stars on each side, more than two stars, but stars on each side of the matchup, two teams that can play good and fun and attractive attacking soccer that can score goals, and you are now on Big Fox. and we can go into a full different whole podcast about the Apple deal. Is it good or bad for MLS? I think it was a risk worth taking. I understand why they did it.

But the drawback was you lose that chance for growth, right? So here we have an MLS Cup. And I wrote this. This is like a Caitlin Clark moment for the league. You know, can they pull in 2.5 million, 3 and a half million viewers to MLS Cup in this window in between the Big 12 championship game and the SEC championship game? that you've got Messi playing for a trophy. So I think that's where in the big picture it matters

because we know that they shorten the Apple deal. So they need to start showing other media companies like Fox, like ESPN, like CBS, or even like Amazon or you can go down the list that they can deliver an audience. And I think this game is, if you can't deliver an audience with Messi against Mueller and two fun teams, you're in trouble. So I think that this is kind of a prove it, moment. And if they don't deliver that audience, I think it puts even more of a fire under the

decision makers of this league to really think about radical change when it comes to the third and most important tier of change for the league, which is how they spend their money. I want to talk more big picture about the league, but I'm curious because you've spent so much time around Miami writing this book. What you make of Inter Miami as a club, what this moment means for them and sort of where they sit inside of all of this conversation of what the Mosses have done or want to do or where they are as owners across the league. Like, what have you made of their entity?

Yeah, I mean, I think it's a huge validating moment for the Moss brothers, especially and for David Beckham as well. You know, they spent three plus years recruiting Messi. You know, this wasn't an accident, a happy accident. Now, they were helped by some happy accidents, right? They were helped by Barcelona being incompetent. and being in financial issues, that pushed Messy to Miami. But there was a lot of work put into this and a lot of risk that they took on.

You know, MLS does not guarantee revenue to any owner. You know, the history of the league is about kind of surviving losses and seeing your valuations grow and go up and up. And that's kind of the justification for everything you do. And so to have signed Messi for as much money as they did, to give away a percentage of the club, And to not win an MLS Cup would be disastrous. You know, and they feel very strongly in Miami that Messi has been the proof of concept that they want. He has made Miami globally recognized. And MLS is kind of drafting off of that the best they can.

And I think we can argue how much the lead really benefits from it. I don't know how much in terms of a kind of global popularity or resonant. But, you know, you want on-field results to just, justify it. And I go back to an interview I did at the very beginning of Messi coming with Tim Laiwiki about the Beckham years. And, you know, the Beckham year started off really badly. You go back and you read Grant Wall's Beckham experiment. It ends with like, this is a disaster and the Beckham experiment's a failure, right? And it wasn't until the very end of his tenure when Bruce Arena comes in, they sign Robbie Keene, that things turn around and they win multiple

MLS cuts. But Tim Laikiki said, like, that was critical. That was critical to show the league that you, it's not just a kind of a pony show, that you can also get the benefit of winning and making your team matter in that way. So I think there is an element of that with Messi as well, hey, this was worth it from a sporting side, not just commercial. Well, so Paul, jumping off that, something that I find really interesting is, like, Lino Messi is a competitive monster.

What he cares most about is on the field stuff. and obviously lifestyle and being in Miami and everything that comes to that. What he doesn't seem to care about is ambassador for a league, growing league. You wrote a book essentially on Messi and MLS and the growth and all of those existential issues or potentials when Messi just wants to roll the ball out and play.

Like Thomas Mueller is going to pubs in Vancouver. And maybe it's controversial, but I don't think that Messi, he didn't sign a contract. to be a mascot for MLS. Like he came here, like him being here is the advertising. Him being here is being the ambassador. So how do you kind of square those two things

where Messi doesn't want to do that many interviews? Messi just wants to win and he wants to talk crap to Maxi Morales and anybody in his way. Yeah, well, he's given one press conference since he's been here, right? And in that one press interviews and Fabramano interviews, that's it?

In that one press conference, Philippe, our friend, Philippe, our friend of the show, I'll say, on behalf of you guys. Felipe Cardin asked a question where he basically said, you know, do you see yourself in that role of growing the sport in this country? And Messi said no, right? He said, no, I'm here because my family thought it was the right place to be,

where we want to be happy, and I just want to play soccer again and just enjoy the sport. And so there is this kind of weird dynamic where only recently, only after he signed his renewal, did he really put his voice behind the idea that the league needs to change? And so there's two things. First of all, I think going into that stadium and looking around and realizing, like, I own part of this. I'm an owner when I stop playing.

I think motivated Massey to say, I kind of like that idea, right? I kind of like that I'm an owner. And that means I can start kind of acting like an owner a little bit beyond just what people like to say, like, oh, he decides what players or whatever. Like the bigger picture of being an owner is deciding the future of the league and the sport, right? So I don't think that was a coincidence that shortly after doing a tour of Miami Freedom Park, he comes out and does an interview with NBC where he says, the lady needs to spend more, right? But what I found really fascinating is, like, what makes Messi so unique, even when you compare him to LeBron James or Rinaldo or Serena Williams or any other major athlete is, like, we don't know that much about him. He doesn't want to be a public figure.

And because of that, or in spite of that, despite that, he is so famous because he's so famous because he's. so good at soccer. He's so much better than everyone else that that's made him the most famous person in the world. He doesn't need to do it. And that's been true for his whole career. And so he's kind of been like, why, why do I need to do anything? My presence alone is enough to, to force other people to react. And that's kind of true. Like, he arrived. It was so successful that immediately within months, you know, they had the board of governors meeting in July, DC. They start talking a little bit. A couple months later in Dallas, the sporting and competition committee meets, and they start talking about changes. So it really was like,

I didn't have to say a word. He just showed up. People bought tickets at 10x the price. They bought jerseys like crazy. And all of a sudden, the league's like, all right, we're going to change, we're going to start thinking about changing our. And people say to me like, oh, the messy effect isn't real. Like everyone overblows it. Like he hasn't really done that much. There's more messy fatigue. Okay, well, he arrived in the summer of 2023. Four years later, within four years of that arrival, MLS will have a different calendar, a different regular season format, a different playoff format, and different roster rules. Let's say it's a pretty substantial messy effect there. And you can draw the line directly to that arrival. So it is interesting that he hasn't

had to use that voice. But I do think it probably would have moved faster if he had. I do think that like Beckham coming out and giving press conferences when he played that the hotels are unacceptable, the turf fields are unacceptable, the planes are unacceptable, like that that spark changed faster. Maybe not the planes, but the other stuff. And I think maybe not the turf fields too. Yeah, well, yeah, we just heard Hugo Lurie is talking about the turf field in Vancouver. So, but I do think like certainly it could have been different. But that doesn't mean the impact was completely wiped out. So, Paul, I'm glad that that was the angle because I was drawing the two connections between

Beckham and Messy. Beckham's impact was the infrastructure. I believe that, first of all, the players, how they were treated off the field, like you said, the hotels, the travel, accommodations, everything else, but also stadiums, training facilities, the academy, academy development. The DP rule. I know that, yeah, the deep, first and foremost, the deep, completely remade the league. But the infrastructure of the league, I think, is his lasting legacy.

And then when Messi came, when he was debuting, my hope was that he was going to take that baton and carry it further with all the infrastructure and foundations laid and building something much, much bigger. Again, like, I think what Beckham had was more difficult to get done, but probably less in terms of a real, real growth, but it was more integral. and now like you said the regular season the calendar the playoffs all of these things are all changing we all wish that it happened at least a year earlier than it did in terms of the calendar and everything else in terms of roster spending i know that we all wish that it was even earlier than that but still when you lay it out that way within four years like that is that is the messy effect yeah i mean i remember having this conversation in the course of reporting this book and and you know there are a lot of people i spoke to on the record i'm

thankful for all of them because it's not always easy but there are a lot of people I spoke with on background and those background conversations are really important as you guys know when you're reporting stuff like you you need people that they can they can that you need people that can tell you like this is how it works you know and I remember having this conversation about this idea right of Beckham's impact and Messi's impact and the person said to me don't forget that like the people who did that the people who bought the DPs who built the stadiums, who built the facilities, who invested in the, in the academies were the owners, right? And in fact, they didn't.

And like, there's this, you know, I go back to this interview that Grant Wall gave when his book came out to the New York Times. And he says in the moment, this DP rule doesn't work. Like, only three teams in MLS have DPs and the owners are rejecting it. And eventually they changed their mind. And they started to buy DPs. And that changed what the league looked like. and it took and then of course

I think expansion is what really built out the infrastructure because these new owners came in they started building stadiums immediately that pushed other markets to start to build newer stadiums and these owners started to invest in the infrastructure and so it was like the door

like Beckham was a doorway he was the opportunity but you have to walk through that doorway and it's the same with Messi like Messi gave them this moment he gave them this opportunity and they have to walk through the door They have to use the opportunity.

And I think one of the frustrations of the book is that they didn't do that fast enough to get it done in an ideal way. Like if they had done it right and done it fast enough, it would have been coming out of this World Cup in 2026 and they would have been able to truly kind of capitalize on that. And instead it'll be 2027. They'll lose a percentage. I don't know how big that percentage is, but they'll lose it. But it was, Methi can't make these owners do this. Like, they have to do it. And it was a real battle.

at the boardroom level to get this vote across the line. And, you know, that's what part of this book is. It's like these moments in BOG meetings where you have these kind of like debates and these moments in the Pride Strategy Committee or sporting and competition committee where you have these debates and you're trying to push this stuff over the line. And I think the reminder is like Messi's out there and he's scoring goals and he's filling stadiums and he's selling jerseys and he's literally saying he on the scenes like, what more what more do you do i need to do it's like if you're turned and and i think like the

the league did that with beckham and and they're getting there with messy i don't want to give them credit until the most important tier of changes is done which is the roster rules and how you spend you can you can sync up the transfer window all you want if you can't sign a two million dollar player without making them a dp it won't matter right so like the rules have to change the amount of money has to change when that's done i'll say they seize that moment but until that moment happens like it's still kind of a there's only one way to go will they will they do it i you know no one has a crystal ball but i think most people listening are going to ask you with all the conversations you've had as much time if you spend thinking about this have they hit the right notes are the things

you just described the four main pillars for those are the right for for them to go for and is there a chance to take advantage still of the World Cup in this moment and messy and everything else that in 2030 we're talking about MLS in a different sphere globally or domestically, whichever one you want to choose, than where we were 10 years ago. Yeah. I mean, I think the regular season and postseason format is a toss-in, right? It's free. It's free to do it. It doesn't cost the owners anything. And really what it is is like a workaround, right? They're working around the lack of promotion relegation, trying to create more games of consequence without pro rel.

So will that work or not? I don't know. I'm skeptical. I understand why they're trying to do it. And I think the postseason format definitely needs to be fixed. But for me, it's a, it's a kind of a toss-in. Flipping the calendar and changing the roster rules are essential. They are critical.

They are 100% necessary if MLS is going to grow from a local business into a national slash global business. Like, you cannot, we have two decades of history that people do not tune in to Major League Soccer games. Like, this is, and it's funny because it's the same argument

that these stakeholders make with me about Apple, which I will, I concede the point, which is the format before wasn't working for MLS, right? ESPN, Fox, One of Vizion, and the local deals especially were net negatives in some ways for the league.

They weren't getting the audiences, that we're spending money on the local broadcast that we're getting absolutely no audiences there. Even the best local broadcasts were doing bottom of the barrel NHL numbers, right? So it was worth the risk to go to Apple, partner with one of the biggest companies in the world and kind of make all of that,

take that risk and see if you can find more audience digitally ahead of everyone else. Okay, so by that same point, we know that the product is good enough to compel the hardcore fans to show up at the stadium, that's wonderful. I'm not trying to say that those fans don't matter.

Of course they matter. They create the atmosphere that makes the MLS different from other American sports. But it doesn't matter from a business perspective in a big enough way. And so they have to change. They have to spend more to put a more compelling product on the field that fans will want to watch nationally.

And the question is, how much more? That's what they're figuring out now is like, If you go to spend 45 million, if you're spending Benfica levels of money and you have a Benfica level team, will fans recognize that? Or is it so existential that it doesn't matter unless you're truly trying to compete to be the best? And I don't think no one has the answer on that yet. But that's that's kind of the debate right now is like, where do we go from here? I agree, and that is the biggest question facing the C-suite executives, the people who are running the league to people who are determining the future. For me, though, I do keep coming back to, I don't think that it's mutually exclusive that you can only cater to trying to grow your audience or the core fans. I think MLS is not doing well at all at showing the core fans that they actually care

and they actually value them. Sometimes they give lip service to it, but at every turn, it seems they, are completely sacrificing what a hardcore fan might want or care about the season ticket holders. The people listening to the show, the people listening to the show aren't casuals. They care about the game. They care about their teams. They cared about Tony Chani. There's probably more than they cared about Lino Messy, right?

Like, these are real things. Justice for Tony Cheney. That's called an illness, just to be clear. Well, and we all have-s-send sick-up. He used to word. We're all severely ill. but something that I keep coming back to is like again this conversation I think is very important but while we're all falling over each other to figure out how to bring in make messy fans

MLS fans and by the way I think that is a steep hill to climb I think that into Miami social media numbers are going to go down immediately when Messi retires just little things like that but I just feel like too often we're sacrificing a Toronto FC season ticket holder or or Columbus season ticket holder or whoever that like hey man like it was nice when i could just watch or like the columbus crew they they move their game against miami to cleveland like if you're a columbus crew season ticket holder you're probably upset about messy being there because now i have to drive three hours of Cleveland if i want to watch this game and pay more money yeah i mean i think there's all sorts of that i think the big thing is like i don't think this is about converting messy fans i use

this anecdote and again this is anecdotal so it's imperfect i i i i i i get that. But I actually use this anecdote with a couple owners that I was speaking to at the B-O-G meeting in Chicago in May, where I have a buddy of mine who is a diehard south side of Chicago guy, Bears fan, White Sox fan, Blackhawks fan, Bulls fan, okay? Like, he's in it. And after the 2022, after the 2022 World Cup, he said to me, and so there's another buddy, we're in like a Slack channel together. There's another buddy of mine who worked at Arsenal. and so there's two there happened to be two soccer nerds in this small group of friends and so he said okay like i want to watch i really enjoyed the world cup that was a lot of fun

i'd like to become a soccer fan and what was his first question do you think to the two of us premier league team play he was no you see it what premier league team should i follow right so we go through the usual spiel we kind of make equations of this team is this this team is that this is the history of this team and that team will go everyone what's a white sox fan Sheffield Wednesday? He picks Fulham. He picks Fulham because it's blue collar-esque, it's got a history of American players, you know?

So he's like, okay. White Sox are not a Premier League team. It's a good point. No, that is definitely a good point. And he's all in on it. He's like every Fulham game he's watching. He's talking about it. He's buzzing about the transfer window.

He becomes a diehard Fulham team. And more really just a diehard soccer fan. He's all in on the transfer window. He's watching Champions League, Europa League, Conference League, even like it's crazy so flash forward the beginning of this here out of the blue out of nowhere he says i think i'm you know i'm a chicago guy i'm gonna cheer for the fire like how do i watch them and i'm like well you got to pay a hundred bucks to watch them on afl and he's like all right well do i get like a few weeks for you to see if i like it i'm like yeah so opening night he starts

commenting in the channel he's watching the san diego game it's not a fire game he's watching the opening game he's like this is a lot of fun this is entertaining like yeah cool he starts watching the fire. After the third week of the season, he reaches out and he says, hey, like, are the fields and I'm less bigger than in the Premier League? And I'm like, no. And he's like, ah, like, I just feel like there's so much more space. And this is somebody who's been a fan for three years. And what did he notice? The pace of play is so much slower. That's why he sees more space. Fields are the same size. The game's just moving slower. The players have more time on the ball. And this is somebody who's not a big soccer. So, like,

quality of play matters for those casual fans too they can see it interesting and so i think that's what mLS has undervalued that there is this like there is this core group that they look at from the bcg study that they say are like these casual die hard sports fans that we can capture that don't care about if it's a prime well they're they're able to tune into the premier league and once they do they notice that your style of play that your level of play is way lower so just close that gap just close that gap and I think that's the task

it's less about like the messy diehards or the Euro snobs it's like those casual fans that can also now because it's so accessible to watch the best soccer in the world

that you have to get your soccer a little bit closer than it is right now to convince them that you're worth watching we could obviously do this all day and I'm sure we will do it in Miami over the

course of the weekend, whether Tom's in the water or out of the water during that conversation, I'm not sure. But we've known you for a while, Paul. We consider you a friend. And I think it's exciting that you wrote a book. So I want to ask about that before we let you go. You brought up the Beckham experiment, right? There's like two books in our space, maybe one for most people. And you've now done a lot of work to put out the next one. What was the experience like? What does this feel like right now? And what are you sort of like benchmarking this again? you know, as you go through the next few experiences up till June 9th. I'll tell you what.

Ask me this question in Miami. I'll tell you everything I really want to say. It was the most personally challenging thing I've ever done, which is like I expected it, you know, and part of why you do it is like all coaches say now, like you have to like challenge yourself, be uncomfortable, you know? A LinkedIn post. I like, yeah, I like, I moved to Sheffield Wednesday, you know what I mean, to challenge myself. D.C. United's home ground for, looking for, yeah, I'm at like a mid-tier Belgian club. I think it's called Swansea. I think that's the name of the team. Yeah, so, you know, it was really, really hard. There were some really fulfilling moments as well, and I feel so fortunate that, like, I got to go to Saudi Arabia and Hong Kong and Tokyo, and I...

Feels like a lifetime ago. Get a chance, like, I came home from that B-O-G meeting, and I told my wife, like, I came home from that B-O-G meeting, and I told my wife, like, Like, what is my life? Like, I just sat with these billionaire owners and, like, had a conversation with them. Like, I, like, I belonged at that table and I don't belong at that table. So, like, you know, I think that that part of it was cool. But it was really, really hard. And I hope, I just hope that it resonates.

I hope my aim with the book was to lay out the landscape and to show people. Because I don't, what I have found when I, when I do peek into the comment section of my stories, is that, like, the people that I feel like I used to connect with. with the most, the allocation disorder listeners, the diehards, they feel like I've become, like, disjointed from them, that I'm too much worried about, like, where I'm lost needs to go, and I don't appreciate them enough. And I think, I think to some degree they're right,

because, like, when you're in it so much, I think I really truly understand, in my opinion, like, how existential this moment is for the league. And so what I'm trying, what I hope this book accomplishes is to show, like, this is what the league's facing. And this is why they have to, do this, this, and this. So that part of what was really cool, too,

because it's all stuff that I've thought about and debated and used to podcast with Stay School about and talk to you guys about whenever I'd see you at MLS Cup or wherever. And then I got to, like, write what I hope is the definitive account of it. So it was cool. I'm trying to mentally get to a point where I can, like, say, like, good job. But, like, it's not done yet. I've got to write an epilogue.

and then yeah i don't know then i'll have a drink and toast cheers with you guys and and then we'll we'll get to june 9th and see what people think about it i i can't wait to read it uh very proud of you what what an incredible accomplishment what i want to ask uh does sam stage go get to write the forward you know what sam i said to sam i was like you know are you going to be okay if you're in the acknowledgments and he was like i'd better be in the well he's going to be listening to this and it reminds me that he texted me a really nice thing a few weeks ago to me and tom and neither of us responded so now we're going to text sam back after unreal unreal before i let you go last one we're going to do this about vancouver and we know

you hate Vancouver so we won't make you do this obviously um but the question about something like this is if they win if they lose what does it mean and what's the future right we know Bousquet and Alba are gone. We know Messi signed the new contract. The stadium is opening. So from the, you know, on the ground a little bit more perspective, what a Saturday mean if it goes in either direction? And then what is 26 and 27 for Inter Miami? If they win, it is the ideal scenario. It's everything they needed and wished for. It allows them to open the stadium in the way that they want with a star above the crest. Messy's there. They'll have a new DP, it's going to be this huge fanfare moment, and it's going to be like MLS 1.0, or sorry, Miami 1.0, we did it. We got there. And now, like, Miami 2.0 is this new stadium, you know, and we're going to keep building on it, right? And if they don't win, it's like, oh, shit, like, we're sliding down the rock face. Like, we've got to, like, be able to find a grip to hold on to and try to get back up to that peak. I think it's really a big deal for them if they lose. I think, you know, I think that's why Messi's been playing the way he has.

because I think he recognizes it. He wants this trophy. I think it would be a tough to look in the mirror if they lose this game. I really feel they'll feel like it wasn't all worth it, you know? And then, yeah, I mean, we know for a fact that this team is going to look very, very different. And I think the way they played in the playoffs,

the players they put around messy, maybe are changing how they think about what this roster can look like in the future what types of players, they'll target. to put around messy especially as it gets a bit older but man from from a validation side from how the moss brothers think about it david beckham thinks about it messy thinks about it pooh i don't want to see them if they i mean i do want to see them if they lose because i have an oblog i need to write so if you're listening to this please let me into wherever you are like i'm sure they are

throwing things at the mirror they'll definitely trust me they'll let me in you know it's been and they're listening that's what the bosses are always in the discord with us listen somebody's listening okay somebody's always listening i'll tell you that much i learned that much when some of the allocation disorder episodes i thought no i was listening turned out some people were listening to those episodes they just start quoting you back in a room they told me oh yeah i remember when you guys said that one thing i was like oh i don't think i was state school you know

yeah god god says that with doyle yeah so it's it's it's huge for them to win and if they lose i think it's uh i think there's a deep breath moment where they where they try to figure out okay like how much change needs to come to go into the next year yeah i really do think it would be that big like where they would they would rethink some of the plans for the off season it is called the messy effect for a reason um maybe we don't cover it as often as we should on this show but paul's been doing the work uh for a long time now covering the game cares about the game deeply in this region uh in this country and is one of the best writers that we have. So we're really excited to read it. It's out on June 9th, but the

pre-sale is already available. So go to Amazon or bookshop.org to buy it, and we will do this again in June when we have all read it. We'll do a book club, which means we be able to be into it, won't read it, show up. You guys all read the book? I didn't realize people were going to read the actual book. I'll get an annotated version sent to me about Bobby Warshaw. It'll be good. Bobby's going to get the red pen out and just send you back a physical copy with all of his edits. 100%. He's a widely acclaimed author already.

So you're just joining his ranks at this point. And of course, follow Paul on all social medias and read him at the athletic. Thank you so much for taking the time, Paul. Thanks, guys. Well, hey, we could talk to Paul all day. It's always fun. Can't wait to see him in Miami. And we'll have to have him on after the season's over,

probably to do a big picture conversation. Tom, did you have any big takeaways you took from that? The biggest takeaway is that while Paul was talking and the Chicago White Sox got mentioned. I just pulled up the 2005 Chicago White Sox roster that won the World Series. And all I got to say is AJ Parzinski ain't walking through that door. El Duque Hernandez ain't walking through that door. Have ever the Pope, Pope Leo is not walking through that door?

You know about A.J. Prisinski's like lingo. Have you ever heard about this? Isn't he a bad dude? Oh, I don't know. Maybe. That seems like a high possibility. Well, I heard, I read an article one time where they, I think the article was titled like A.J. Prasinski, the, like, I don't know, the vocab king of Major League Baseball where, like,

all the phrases he'd use when a pitcher was warming up and pitching, like, everything, like painting the inside. But he had, like, all 1,000 of them that he would just, like, cycle through all game, talking and talking and talking. And they were like, he has all the phrases that a baseball person has that you could use, which is always great. I was on a run where I went to Boston and 04 and bought a program from Fenway Park. And then I went to I think Kamiski at the time in 05 and bought a program and those teams won the World Series back to back

and I 06 at Shea Stadium I had 900 programs and I was like it continues now and Adam Wayne Wright dropped a drop it breaking ball in on Carlos Beltran that still haunts me to see that moment Paul gave us the big picture convo

around Inter Miami we know it'll be different I thought it was interesting the way he said what have they learned from the profile of players that fits around Messy. And the thing that pops in my head is like, is the next DP not their Diego Rossi or their Miguel El Miron? Like, it's not the big name.

It's not the superstar. It's the guy in the right frame of his career who can do the work around DePaul and Messi to maximize them. And obviously, they could probably attain a name on that profile that's even bigger than the guys I just said. but that's kind of what it feels like where it's different than Bousquet's and Alba.

Yeah, I mean, I honestly don't know in which direction they'll go. We'll talk about one of the names that they've been linked with a little bit later in the show. It will be Miami... Just saying, Timo Werner. Yeah.

It makes no sense to me. Yeah, that is, from what I understand, is more agent-driven than reality-based, but we'll talk longer later. I don't know because... I don't talk about it at all. You would, like, we can talk about what we think might

be best or correct um but i don't like i have sergeo reggie loan that came out of nowhere right i was very surprised that that was where they were going to spend some resources and i'd be sincerely doubt that that'd be a dp but still it could just be like rodrigo de paul is a dp deal we don't know if that's necessarily the right thing but it helps messy resign and and that's how it's going to happen so whether or not something is right or what we believe to be right because it is subjective, I think is besides the point. And that's kind of why I have no idea what direction it goes. Whether it's somebody like Namor,

I could, perhaps feels more likely to be a name like that rather than, but I could also see them dropping $15 million transfer fee on a 23-year-old, you know? Well, and the thing I wonder is like if they win and they get the odulation in the city that they want because they won and they see that they bench Suarez and played Silvetti and Iende and they won, if that sort of opens a door to like, well, we don't need the name

because Messi's re-signed. Messy's the name. We have the name. We're going to have the building. Let's just win and what gets us the best way to winning. Let's talk Vancouver in the same light because, as I said, Paul hates Vancouver.

So we'll do it for him. He's Hollywood now, bro. He's Hollywood now. And Vancouver hasn't been. Michael McCall on the Kickback Committee show said, oh, it's a frontrunner city and everyone's in now, which I think at this point

every sport city is a frontrunner city, but something special is happening. And it's not just one year. Like, you got to go back into the Vanisartini years. They put a ton of fans in the building for some big games, especially against LAFC, across Leagues Cup, but mainly in the playoffs. They have developed players and sold them, Pedro Vite, obviously big success this year. They bring in Thomas Mueller, which is sort of an unprecedented signing for them. And then the conversation around the sale of the club and where it stands.

and the stadium and everything. So what would winning mean for this Vancouver team? What would losing mean for them? Where do you see this club? I struggle with these kinds of questions because sometimes I get the, just the tunnel vision of this game. Like, what does it mean?

This trophy means everything. Winning in a month's cup means everything. If they lose, it doesn't turn into a bad season. Yeah. It doesn't turn into really, like this is going to be, they have ensconced this season as, the best in club history, win or lose on Saturday. But also, this is going to be one of the most memorable seasons for us, Goss, I think,

and I don't think that we're alone in that. And for these fans, absolutely. They will be talking about this season in the stands at BC Place or wherever the hell that they're going to be late in the future. They will be talking about this. They will be talking about this in group chats. That is the legacy of the season, win or lose. It will be more special if they win, particularly to go to Miami and beat this into Miami

team with Lino Messi. and Sergio Bousquet, Jordi Alba, Georgia Buskets, Jordi Alba, their last games ever, maybe Louis Suarez's last game ever. What a crescendo of this season that would be. But when you talk about what it means, I don't, they've already galvanized the city. They've, again, this time last year,

we were very, I was very pessimistic about their outlook, both on and off the field. It is a complete 360 from that feeling, or 180, because 360, you just turn around and face the same direction. Complete 180 in that week last year. Jackson Dart, direction no directions here i'm just taking somebody hits down the sideline i don't go out of pounds bro this ain't soccer uh direct quote from what a lie uh he's going to be out of the

NFL in three years um anyway like this what what what does this mean winning unless cup and immortalizing this team and this season it the only difference is it'll go from man like remember that team just guys sitting around naming teams naming guys like Pedro vete and come through that door. Andre's Kubas, like, that's how we'll talk about this team in three years. Or it'll be on every promo, on every season's back, let's talk. Do you remember that LA Galaxy team in 24? Obviously, that's last year.

We're not talking about the 24 Red Bulls. Yeah. We will talk about this Vancouver White Caps team win or lose, but with a win, they put themselves in just a special, special place in Major League Soccer history. Yeah, I think if they lose, they will remain in that short. stratosphere for sickos, knowledgeable fans, fans of the club, and I think adjacent fans of the club in Vancouver. If they win, it propels them out of that category and into celebrities in Vancouver and potentially changing the direction of the club forever. Like, I don't want to overstate

this, but sporting Kansas City beat man you and a friendly, and then they built a stadium, and then they were a different club. It doesn't always work that way. But where this club sits right now, if they get over the top and they beat Messi and they win MLS Cup and they are a Canadian team that does this for all of Canada coming off with the Blue Jays, almost did, and all of that, it might get the stadium over the line. And that might change Vancouver's reality forever going forward. And it might change who an owner comes in for. It also might mean that they are the talk of soccer as they host a World Cup. and Ali Ahmed's in a starting lineup. And so I don't think not everything hinges on the game,

but that's the big picture to me for this team, which is if they lose, Matt Doyle will write about them in every article he writes for the next five years in terms of this is the gold standard, this is the great season, this is what it is. And that's correct, right? That's what we do when we talk about L.AFC at their peak.

That's what we do when we talk about Atlanta at their peak, TFC, all of that. Some of those teams won, some of those teams didn't. R.S.L and their CCL run and Kyle Beckerman in the diamond and all of that. But I think if they win, you change the face of fandom in your city. And I might be wrong that they might lose and that might happen anyway with the support they've had. I mean, the numbers we're hearing are they're going to have about 25,000 in the building

to watch the game on TV. So like that was, they would struggle to get that in the stadium to watch them play over the last 10 or so years and I will never forget during COVID when we did the I think we called them the Mount Rushmore's at the time top four characters from each club and the great moments and we just couldn't do it like yeah Pedro Morales great one year Kendall Waston awesome like Jay de Merritt a year and a half like they just had no history and now there could be four from this team on that list as well but these moments are fleeting and yet you look at fandom and where it comes from and where people are like if they combine these two years and i will say this

i think the club's in the right direction yes per sorensen and axel schuster have a process i think they're good at what they do i don't think it's going away next year even if some of the characters change and yeah maybe offers come in for some guys or and they can't hold on to them like pedro vite um or maybe they add to this and they're able to depth you know add even more depth to the squad and all of that but i think it's a big moment i think it has a huge potential for them as it does for Interimiamy, which is why these games are so fun, because they matter so much to history, as well as to the clubs, the players,

and everyone else involved. We're hearing, hopefully, somewhere, around 300 Vancouver fans that are going to be in the building. I'm talking to Miami fans who are working on tickets and scrambling for tickets and in and out and finding them now on secondary markets and all of that. And of course, the biggest celebrity of all,

Tommy Scoops, is going to be in the building. Speaking of, let's dig into, I guess we could call it, the ice cream show, You've broken most of this news. What you haven't has gone official as well. We've got to talk players and we've got to talk executives. Let's start on the player side. And let's start in Philadelphia.

You put this report out there, I think a while ago, but now it's finally made it over the line. Philadelphia has made their record signing coming off this shield win. Yeah, they've signed a Ghanaian Youth International Forward, Alito, from a Swedish club that I'm not going to try to pronounce the name. I actually got a voice note from a European scout that said, can you make my day and send me a voice note trying to pronounce the team name?

And I acquiesced and I just got back a laughter. And then they sent me back how to pronounce the team name and it is completely already slipped. Anyway, the Philadelphia Union complete this deal for Ziegle-Alado. It'll be around a $4.5 million fee. It's a new club record. This is a kid who his physical profile

matches how they want to play, of course, in terms of the high-pressing transition. What I've been told, and this is how Philly talks about guys when they sign them forwards, the first thing they talk about is he's a pressing monster he's so good

it's not just his ability to cover ground it's he knows when to go he knows when like at 20 years old he's he's really really well against the ball obviously it's going to matter if he scores goals but up front two to pick two out of three if Ty Briba is still here

of Ty Bribo Aldo and Bruno Damiani it's going to be a handful for any defense we'll see how quickly he comes on again as a 20 year old who's coming from the Swedish league and a mid table club at that. So who knows how much time I'll need to adapt.

But Philadelphia Union spending $4.5 million is like, I don't know, Atlanta spending 15. You know what I mean? Like this is a serious signing for the union. And when they make these types of signings, they are very rarely wrong. So the bar here is usually high. And obviously this comes with the, like this deal was being reported all of this out before Ernst Tanner was placed on administrative leave. Aldo came and did his medical, I think Monday was when that was.

the deal was announced on Wednesday. So this was obviously done before, but there are other people working in this front office. They will continue their off-season planning and maneuvering whatever happens with Earth's Tanner whenever this situation is resolved. But for right now he's on leave and the union have a new club record signing.

I was told U-22 initiative, when I was it initially reporting this, the union didn't denote his roster designation in the press release, which often means they, have the flexibility. Right. They're going to play with it up until the roster deadline. Whatever.

Yeah. So, but what is interesting is that he can fit under the U22. Right. Because there is, um, a cap on the salary. Yeah.

Where you have to go from U22 to D.P. I'm assuming that's still what they're going to do. But the union will have the flexibility to do either. Michael Lura feels like his time is done. They say they're still talking to him, but, um, he's out of contract coming out of this. And this feels to me like the real Julien Carranza replacement.

Um, It feels like Tiberibo and Damiani are kind of a combination between the two of them of Kranza. And this feels like one lone player who does it all of the pressing, the goal scoring, the physical profile. And that could boost that offense as well as, of course, Milano Lasky, who's been a good addition to them as well. So for Philadelphia with Ernstanner on administrative leave right now, continuing to do some business. As you mentioned, another interesting one that just dropped. Kate Cowell headed back to Major League Soccer The New York Red Bulls are in advance talks

To sign Cade Cowell from Chivas I believe this would be alone initially The 22 year old was Join Chivas from San Jose In winter of 2024 He's had highs and lows with Chivas He was named Player of the Month in League of Mekkes I believe this summer last summer

And then this This Apertura He started only four games so that is life achieve us right like that is he's not the first he won't be the last he's had some really good moments then you get injured and then you don't get your spot back or then you have a couple bad games which kate cow is he still developing that is what he's known to do he can come and go in terms of goal contributions we saw that at san Jose i think that he's going to come back to mLS a better player than when he left i like this signing for the red bulls i really do is

their right profile yeah and they're going to play a game model with wingers whether it's 433 or 423 I'm assuming 433, they don't really have any natural wingers on the team. So Kate Cow coming in and he was always reliable in terms of his availability and in terms of like the physical, the pace, the getting in behind, the pressing, it was just whether he was, you know, whether he's going to be a 4 million player to Chivas or a 10 million player, it's a La Liga, if that final pass, that final decision came through. So with the baseline, I think, particularly in a Red Bull team, while they will try to play more soccer this year at their heart they're so a red bull team and they need guys they want guys like

like kate cow and if kate cow is your fourth best attacker it's a really good spot to be in yeah he fits perfectly he's a he's a freak the guy's an athletic freak he as you said the question was that last bit of development decision making touch was it going to get over the line for him to become world class elite it hasn't with chivas okay fine now go back to your roots which is the thing he's good at is what red bulls are most going to rely on you know he's not as good as lewis morgan who they can't get on the field and they would love to get on the field. But if he's playing all the time, he will probably approach at least 15 total goal assist contributions

in his season if he's playing with this team consistently, maybe 20 just because of if he gets the minutes, the space will be there with that team and he could take advantage. And I think it's probably the best case scenario for what team he ends up with returning to Major League Soccer. Let's go to some of the big centerback signings that have been made. Let's talk Chicago, a 20-year-old, 20-year-old centerback coming in from South Africa. Do you want to try it or do you want me to?

I'm going to try. I'll step up. Chicago Fire has officially signed South African International Centerback in Bekezzelli, in Bokazi, from Orlando Pirates. We're going to have to get our guy Kian to roast me for that attempt. This is, I believe the fee is somewhere in the region of $3 million. He joins for the U-22 initiative. He's got five caps with the South African National. this is not like he's obviously still developing right but this is a guy who's playing senior

international soccer Orlando Pirates is obviously one of the two biggest clubs in south Africa and just from the anecdotally from the Twitter mentions I've gotten from South Africans particularly at first before that they grew acceptance they were upset that he's not going to like a top five league in Europe like that is how he's viewed when again whether that's right wrong or indifferent that was the initial thought and then it was like wow, Chicago got a really good player. All right, now we love the Chicago fire. I've been getting a lot of AI memes of Imbo Kazi driving a tractor behind Lino Messi,

and that Messi is not going to get by him. I don't know. I'm interested initially, I need to do some more research, but I'm interested in the foundations of these memes. So this is the centerback group of Chicago, again, led by Jack Elliott, like if Imbo Kazi becomes a regular start, if he lives up to what they think he can be, this is a big signing. This is a guy who they will then sell

in a handful of years for more money to Europe. Yeah, it's a position of need for Chicago. I think you want a younger player there as Jack Elliott, sort of your steady force, and this seems to make sense. And you've had a year now

for Greg Burrhalter and Greg Broughton to sort of settle in and find the guys that fit their system, and that's massive because the ability to press up when you want to cover ground behind as well as playing possession and help you build out of the back

is going to be really, really big. in this Burr-Alter system, and it's a copycat leak. McCona has been a huge success. Bongi's been a huge success. Teams have tried to go to South Africa. It's a weird one where there's so much money there that great players stay, and it's hard to get them to Major League Soccer, but there's clearly a pipeline now that's opened up,

and players and agents are open to it. Not the only big centerback, though, signed in the Eastern Conference. It feels like Walker Zimmerman's replacement is now in place. Maxwell Wollezzi, getting signed by Nashville. Tom, which is a huge moment for them. Yes, this is a player that is on the fringes of the Ghana national team from the people I spoke with. It was like, like, we think he should be in the mix for the World Cup, but we understand, like, at this stage, it's going to be really tough for somebody who's not regularly with the team

to break into the team before the World Cup. But, like, they are firmly expecting him to be that first window after the World Cup when teams start to transition, that he's going to be part of that. That is how he's viewed. and obviously that depends on how he plays with the team when he gets here. I'm expecting him to be a starter. He's a beloved figure at Frederickstott, the club that they're signing him from. He had his last game, and what I was told, that he was able to go over to the crowd

when some Nashville folks were there to be in attendance for his last game. And he gets the bullhorn in front of the supporters group. and they love him there. They really do. And I've heard a lot of good things about his character. Obviously, good things about him on the field. But this is an interesting signing for Nashville. As like you said, Walker Zimmerman's leaving.

Jack Mayer, that's somebody that I heard, hey, for the right offers, they would listen. So this is a transitional time for a centerback group, which has been the rock of this Nashville team since they got in the league. And Zimmerman and Mayor have been there since day one. Like, Lovitz and Willis has left. but like this defensive group that has been so consistent in who the personnel is and so great, it is finally kind of changing of the guard to the next era for Nashville in defense. As it should be, because B.J. Callahan's style is different, and all of those were great soldiers and were elite performers under the previous management,

and I think still performed really well, but like there's a different need, a different stress on those players for Nashville, but it's going to be a lot of change really, really fast. and then the rumors are that they could be in conversations to try and get Pauly Prime Time. Paul Rothrock in the building, it makes sense when you hear it. Like that was to me the big gap in this team was where Alex Miel played. And I thought Quasum came on really strong and he'll be a high Goss theorem candidate for next season. And I think there's like potential in there.

But I think if Paul Rothrock's looking for a place to sort of be a bigger asset, more consistent playing time, a bigger central force of an attack, this Nashville team could make a lot of sense as a move for him. Really quick. I don't know. I don't have any inside info in this. I'm not asked around. Paul Rothrock seems like a Nashville guy.

Like it seems like a natural SC signing. Like all of the traits, like his age, domestic, his style, his work rate, him kind of being an underdog and breaking through his mentality, all of those things. Like this is, like, you know, they signed Alex Mule. They signed, you know, Tiel Bunbury, I think is still on the team. is easy like i think uh i think that paul rothrock is better than those guys but the same like that that guy he's a dog he's a worker he's coming from another mLS team that national values like all of those traits i don't know it for a fact that this is real but this seems like a

national guy yeah i absolutely agree um if he leaves seattle he won't be the only one as my alarm goes off danny lava uh has been transferred it sounds like to mexico i love this move for both sides I think he's going to be really good in Mexico I think it's a good fit for him he is more physical I think and his athletic profile is probably a game changer in Mexico where it's not an MLS but he's technically clean enough

and I think for Seattle this is fine like you have talent in a position from the academy you move Jasa Tensio on for assets you used now move Danny Lave on into a place he'll be better have some sell-on fee in there have him continue his career and be connected

to you and I think that's okay yeah i agree and this makes sense from the seattle point of view and for danie lava point of view like hey if i'm not going to be playing regularly and i'm probably going to get more money in in mexico um the only thing is there's been a lot of uh mexican american dual nets that went from mls to the emuques and it hasn't quite worked out yeah it's a tough cal um frankie amaya was but looking back really fast Alex and Dejas like there have been others that have worked Well, I'm talking about guys who came through MLS. Yeah, yeah.

Like Zendayaas, like, I know that he was with Dallas's Academy, but, you know, like, or talking about, like, Ritchie Le Desma, almost said Richie Le Desma. Richie Le Desma, yes, he came through MLS Academies, but he was at PSV before he went to Club America, right? But just the direct, like, guys from, like, and particularly in the Lava and Nehemi, like, I think that those who are very good players, Kate Cowell, but it was just like, oh, I don't know if this is going to work out or not,

and then it did. Brandon Vasquez, I think, is the best of that bunch. Didn't quite work out in Montserrey. So I just think that that's an interesting point of view. So much happening right now in Major League Soccer. We didn't even get to talk about Nonsei, the news around Garth Lagerway, Todd Dunavant, taking over NYCFC, as well as Kevin, because we had so much to do. We are going to do all of that. I promise.

We've got plenty of shows still to come. We will be back on Monday with your MLS Cup recap. We'll dig into some of this as well. But once again, thank you to Paul Tenorio, the only Paulym prime time in our lives. for coming on, for chatting with us. Congratulations once again about his book. Please go and get into the pre-sale. The messy effect is the name and the writer is Paul Tenorial.

So thank you to you, Tom. Thank you to all of you for listening. Shout out to Gregory and Morgan as well for all their support. Don't forget to watch our live draw show on Friday. We'll talk to you all again very, very soon. I'm going to be.