SoccerWise - MLS Edition: Herculez Gomez On Berhalter-CHI, Inter Miami & USMNT

Episode Date: October 8, 2024

MLS has hit it's final international break before Decision Day, but that doesn't mean things slow down. Breaking new out of Chicago as Gregg Berhalter takes over as Director Of Football & Head Coach, and Austin has parted ways with Josh Wolff. David sits down with Herculez Gomez (ESPN, Vamos Podcast) to dig through all the news plus putting Inter Miami's season into context. 6:00 Gregg Berhalter Taking Over Chicago Fire 25:00 Austin FC Coaching Change 33:10 Inter Miami 52:40 Paul Pogba MLS Destinations 55:45 USMNT PreviewSoccerwise Live 2pm ET Every Tuesday/Wednesday/Thursday on Youtube/Twitch/Twitter

Hey everybody, welcome back to Soccer Wise. David Goss here with you. A little bit of a different show. So apologies first of all for missing our Monday recap show. I just moved, thought I would have internet, did not. Spent, you know, half I would have internet, did not. Spent, you know, half the day on customer service phone calls, which is always fun. But now I am settled and ready to rock. Of course, Tom off on his honeymoon. We are wishing him the best. I know he is listening to every single second of this show while he's away. He will be quizzed when

he gets back. So don't worry, that will be there. So in his place today, we're going to have on Hercules Gomez. You know him very well, of course, from his playing career with the U.S. Men's National Team in Mexico and across Major League Soccer. And of course, even more so now as a broadcaster, I think one of the most interesting voices in North American soccer, his perspective, bridging that gap between the Liga MX background and the Latin American view on the game, as well as, of course, being fully going to start by talking Greg Berhalter with the Chicago Fire, the future for the Fire, what this means for Greg Berhalter, and so much more around that. I wanted to get his thoughts on Inter-Miami,

where this team ranks all time, because as much as we've talked about them in this silo of this year, now that they've officially won Supporter Shield and with the points record on the verge of being broken, of course, Messi's a cheat code in his own thing. But this team now lives in MLS history. Where will it stand up? What will we say about them in five, ten years?

And how will we compare them to the other teams in MLS plus many other things around Miami? And talking about Major League Soccer and inter-Miami's ability to capitalize on Messi's time here and whether they've done enough and what more could be done in his career. We talk a little Paul Pogba because I think that rumor is fascinating and it makes too much sense to me. And it's something that I hope gets done in that he comes to Major League Soccer, now having his ban shortened after the court case that occurred, still sort of an ongoing

story there, an ongoing case. And we finish off talking a little bit of national team as well. So a long conversation, really, really fun. I hope you all enjoy it. Jordan Angeli will be back with me tomorrow to do our full NWSL show. Thursday, I believe we're going to dig in pretty heavy on the national team with a guest or two. As I put that together, the Friday show already preparing. We're going to have an interview once again, and the mailbag

that I would like to do. So I'm going to record that in advance. So please get your mailbag questions into the discord channel already have a couple good ones open to anything else that you want to have me explore or answer or anything. So if you want access to that, you have to subscribe to the Patreon that gets you access to the discord and that is where the Mailbag channel lives. Thank you all, and enjoy the interview. All right, so Tom Bogert out on his honeymoon right now, somewhere off the coast of Italy, probably signing a number of designated players, cigar in hand, doing what he does. So I figured we had to bring in a big name, a super sub.

We went Michele Giannone last week, one of the legends, one of the greats. So I got to keep upping things. So this time I chose Hercules Gomez. You know him from Football Americas at ESPN, as well as Ahora o Nunca and Men in Blazers. Vamos. Herc, I just moved to Miami. My Spanish is trash. Don't lie to me and pretend it was okay.

Dude, that was okay. Dude, that was good. Trust me. You just moved to Miami and you will absolutely 100% need to learn Spanish. There's no going around that one. But you'll enjoy it. You'll learn Spanish and get a tan. I'm Argentine now is what I've learned. Or Venezuelan.

Those are my two options. Yes. Yes. Pretty much. Pretty much. Now with Messi, it's mini argentina and venezuela for i can't even remember how long it's been like an exodus of venezuela venezuelans in miami it's pretty pretty cool to see because before it was all cubans so it's pretty cool

how it's changing it uh it is absolutely amazing sometimes when you walk around the pink the messy like we will talk about Miami a ton because they officially won the supporters shield they are on pace to set the points record in major league soccer and I wanted to bring you on to sort of help us put that in context because you have played against or on some of the greatest teams in MLS history and that's the conversation now we are having about this inter-Miami side but some other big things to talk about before we get there. Breaking news. Before I had you on here today, the Chicago Fire have officially hired Greg Berhalter as the sporting director and head coach for their club.

George Heights, of course, is leaving to go back to Switzerland to work with Lugano, the partnership club. And Frank Klopas has been an interim technically for the year. And Greg Berhalter will now take over as both of those jobs. It is something I expected to the extent that we've almost talked about it on this show as if it would happen, not if it would happen, but as if it did happen. So not a curveball, but still a big moment, both for this club and for the sport in this region. Greg Berhalter is one of the biggest names in soccer

in North America after the time he's had with the U.S. men's national team. What's your initial reaction, you know, as you hear it go official and you see the title that he ends up with for this club? Well, I'll go with my initial reaction. This kind of came about my desk or, you know, whispers of it maybe three weeks ago. And I think I mentioned

it so on Football America is about Chicago, maybe getting a shakeup. And it could be somebody who actually lives in Chicago right now. And as we know, the U.S. Soccer Federation, one of the old prerequisites, I don't even know if this is still the case, required their employees to live in Chicago. So Greg and his family are in Chicago. So it makes sense for Greg that if he wanted to do something in both the P's, that itch he has himself of still coaching and maybe his family of having some stability. People don't realize it, but footballers, coaches, people in the soccer world, footballing world, the one thing they want most and they crave most is stability. 99% of the people who work in this industry at some point in time will lack stability.

So they want a little bit of stability that works for everybody. So I thought it made sense. As far as the Chicago Fire, why wouldn't it make sense? George Heitz and what he did not do do with Chicago Fire, the old sporting director, it was completely dysfunctional. And this probably predates him. Chicago Fire have been a dysfunctional market for quite some time. It's unfortunate because I'm old enough to remember how great of a market it was, Dave.

Like the Juan Carlos Osorio years, you know, that would be the time where I thought it was exploding. Most recent memory because certainly we got to go back and give props to Bob Bradley and the Jesse Marshes, the anti-Razovs, you know, the – Temo. Peter Novak. Yes, of course. That era. But certainly Juan Carlos Osorio, Cuauhtemoc Blanco, that's the last time you really felt like Chicago was booming,

like they had something, that it was special. And it was one of the premier atmospheres in Major League Soccer. So it's lost its way in between venues, the stadium, and how far disconnected it was from its fan base to just the outright poor decisions they've made, whether it was state-mandated, if you will, MLS-mandated administrative roles or the lack of any actual sporting project or coaching project

that sees it where we have it today, being one of the worstly run franchises in North America. Gripper Halter, if anything, in Major League Soccer, was a very competent coach who, if anything, had a very attractive style of play. His Columbus years were quite good. The big knock on him coming into the U.s men's national team role wasn't if he can implement a style i think everybody that followed major league soccer at that time knew

exactly how columbus crew played and how attractive they were going forward it's if he had the chops the experience and uh if he got the job by merit um all the other stuff his play with the team and how attractive they were and how successful he was regardless of no trophy hauls it still was a for a short tenure time a team that really played well he's got all those factors going for himself now as far as him having the role of both sporting director and head coach why wouldn't he the last two national team managers that coach in major league soccer bob bradley and br Arena, that was the norm for them. I don't think he would take it if that wasn't on the table, and nor should he take it.

This is a guy that fans will love to shit on because there's a certain sector of people who are displeased with his time at the helm of U.S. soccer, the U.S. Men's National Team. And I'm one of those that wasn't convinced with his time, and I'm surely one of his biggest critics. But when it comes to the Major League Soccer level, I think this is, for the first time in a long time, a great signing by the Chicago Fire, something that absolutely makes sense. So I'm excited to see not just just what greg berhalter can do but what this means this change

this uh start of a new era can be for chicago fire yeah it is um you talk about the market you know you talk about the market in one way of saying like it's one of the major markets in america if the league's gonna succeed it needs a chicago the same as we hear all the time the nba wants the knicks to be good they need in new all the time the NBA wants the Knicks to be good they need a New York the NFL wants the Cowboys to be good you need a Dallas Major League Soccer needs Chicago but also Chicago has a genuine history of caring about this team and you talk about that atmosphere and that support and it's impossible to support a horrendous team and it's impossible to support what's been going on recently of having no plan, no

future and all of that. It feels pretty simple that Greg Berhalter can at least make this better, right? You talk about those Columbus teams. You didn't get over the line four years, three playoffs, two conference finals, one MLS cup appearance. Like that would be golden for the Chicago fire, but it was six years ago. The league has changed, and Chicago is a different market operating in a different way. So what do you look at and say, okay, if we take Greg's time in Columbus, now we add the international experience, the connections he's made over the last six years, and we sort of inject that into a chicago team that set a transfer record

with shakiri as much as it failed it showed ambition that they have gone out and gotten jairo torres which was a different style of signing at a big number and then paid the money to get out of it to try and help the team be big what's your sort of expectation of what all this looks like mixed together it's a certain amount of i guess confidence jairo torres um nobody down south thought he was going to be a big player and the fact that the chicago fire unloaded that much money for him and we see where he is today tells you something um you've got some young talent on that team you've got chris brady you've got brian gutierrez team. You've got Chris Brady. You've got Brian Gutierrez, who I think is an absolute stud,

a gem of a player. You've got a dormant fan base. You've got a fan base that's begging to be awoken. For my money, top two most mistreated fan bases in Major League Soccer, along with the San Jose Earthquakes. Neither fan base, historic fan bases in terms of Major League Soccer along with the San Jose Earthquakes. Neither fan base, historic fan bases in terms of Major League Soccer. And there are the new age, the new bloods that will love to laugh in their face, the Atlanta United, the Seattle Sounders, the Cincinnati's of the world. But these fan bases were here long before they were. And these

fans, fan bases laid the groundwork for what is today Major League Soccer. These teams deserve better. But if your ownership doesn't give you that, if the John Fishers of the world won't give you that, it's a hard pill to swallow. Well, now you have an ownership that's shown at least they're trying to change that. It's not for a lack of trying.

It's a lack of competence. So I think Greg Berhalter will bring some level of competence there. Listen, as a national team manager, you're going to have a certain Rolodex that most aren't privy to. People will sit here and say, well, he's only taking that job for a lack of opportunity elsewhere. Before Greg Berhalter took over the second stint, when he was still very much so amidst a lot of turmoil, he had the biggest club in CONCACAF knocking on his door, America. That's not a smoke signal.

That's not something that somebody made up. That's a reality. America's president has acknowledged the interest in Greg Berhalter. That was his job if he wanted it. And he said, no, he was their first option. And they ended up going with the fourth, fifth option in Jardine, who's done extremely well there, you know, back-to-back championships and looking for his third now. So he did have some options. And if right now he were to go to Europe, at some level there would be some interest. I'm not saying Premier League level interest, mid-table or whatever the case may be, but there would be some interest.

So the fact that he's looking at the Chicago Fire tells me, A, he sees a project and an ownership group willing to spend because why would you take it if they're not going to spend? That ambition that you speak of is there. Grant Wall, may he rest in peace, used to have the ambition rankings. With this hiring, that would put the Chicago Fire number one in ambition ranking because not only are you bringing in a national team coach to coach a club team but you're giving him the keys to the kingdom and there is no nobody on this earth that would go from a national team in the confederation of that club team and go to said club team unless he absolutely knew there would be investment there

unless he absolutely knew there would be change there so if i'm a chicago fire fan regardless of whether i like rick verhalter or not i'm thinking to myself something's going to change it has to change there's no way this guy takes the job unless he is convinced there is going to be change yeah it's you talked about the young players who i think are interesting we've gone over it on this show a little bit over the last two weeks as chicago was officially eliminated. And for anyone who doesn't subscribe to our Patreon, we have depth charts and salary cap tables there that we use on this show that show the amount each player gets paid and their contract length.

And the tough part with Chicago is the middle of their roster is on longer contracts, and there's only so much flexibility in MLS. But I went back and looked. 2013, Justin Meerman and Ethan Finley were bench players in Columbus. Greg Berhalter takes over. 2014, they're both elite MLS players. You look at that center forward position. Kai Kamara, golden boot contender, to Ola Kamara, golden boot contender,

to Jossie Zarnes. So I think for Chicago Fire fans, there should be some excitement that this isn't just a coach who's going to come in and say i need players and money like he gets that he has to work somewhat with the roster that he has jokes aside because it will be jokes about jossie sardis and greg berhalter jossie sardis is a right back for bruce arena at the la galaxy people don't realize what greg berhalter turned Jussie Zardes into. He became Eddie Johnson 2.0 for a few years in Major League Soccer. The Eddie Johnson, that would completely wreck Major League Soccer defenders.

So I've got no doubt that he could change things. There is the truth that Major League Soccer has changed, Dave. That's a reality. Major League Soccer has changed. And there are a few managers that have found that key. Tata Martino is one of these managers who kind of breaks the mold when you talk about the certain things or requirements you're needing to be becoming a good Major League Soccer manager, and that is experience in Major League Soccer. He in and he he almost proved to me in my eyes with the failure of atlanta united that how much of it was darren eels how much of it was carlos bocanegra how much of it was that front office and how much of it was tata martino in atlanta united in those days and if you remember the achilles heel of tata martino

and that great atlanta united team was was Greg Verhalter and the Columbus Crew. Greg Verhalter, Zach Steffen, and that Columbus Crew. So I understand Major League Soccer has changed and will continue to change, but he's also a coach that's not exactly been far removed. When he was a men's national team manager manager he would consistently be scouting and looking at major league soccer and yes the player that would get called up that number would diminish but he would never take major league soccer less seriously yeah that is the part i think should be noted is while he's been away he hasn't right he's been in chicago he's been at games he's in the room and all of those things you You brought up Tata.

And this is one of those things that's always interesting when a coach gets hired or a sporting director is like everyone has their roots, right? We have seen Tata go back to Paraguay and Argentina over and over and find players. Greg's roots are very heavy in the Netherlands. He has some in the Bundesliga and Bundesliga too. I'd expect to see him pull some talent. Do you think there'll be a big U.S. men's national team player come in? Do you think if Chicago is going to spend big and try and change things that we see a what we saw with a Michael and Josie comeback for Toronto?

Do you think Greg Berhalter tries to dip into the current player pool, which is a very young USMNT? That's a great question. I don't think so, because I think at the core of Greg Berhalter's successful team in the US Men's National Team and in the Columbus crew was the youth, was this wave of talented players being empowered into important roles. I mean, Will Trapp was a big player for him, right? Zach Steffen became a big player for him. Jossie Sardis was given a big opportunity. I think we're going to see a good sense of American,

or I should say domestic product, because that includes the Canadian player. I think that'll be the staple of Greg Berhalter, mixed in with what every, I think, Major League Soccer team should be. That mixture of domestic product with very good foreign players. Standout foreign players. Yeah, it's true. Greg Berhalter couldn't pick up a trophy. I still remember that MLS Cup, and Steve Clark,

I can't even tell you how many seconds into that game, gives up one of the craziest goals you will ever see in an MLS Cup and it falls to the hands of the MLS MVP at that time, I think, Diego Valeri. You know, like he whiffs on a ball and that puts your team behind the eight ball. So while he didn't pick up a trophy, his teams were successful and they were fun to watch and he did it in a way that I think was productive to the U.S the US system producing domestic talent and relying on some very good foreign products so I don't think that formula is going to change now what you said about these contracts that is the one thing that sets

major league soccer apart from the rest of the world it's very much its own unique beast it's a salary cap league yeah and you can say, and you coach, get new players, it's not that easy. The turnover has to be, I don't know how radical it can be with the books. And I don't know how well-versed Greg Berhalter will be in the books. And I don't know how much leeway he will have there

or if they will bring in somebody like Greg Vanny had the advantage of having and when i say this is greg vanny is one of the best managers in major league soccer over the last almost decade it's not just my personal opinion. These are numbers. Ferranto FC, he was benefited by an ambitious ownership and a very good sporting director or president. I mean, Tim Bezvichenko is as good as they get. The guy wrote the book on the salary cap and the league rules and mechanisms. He was there for that. Goes to the LA Galaxy and will experience a lot of the same things greg berhalter is going to experience a very bad roster in terms of players and in terms of contracts and how you are anchored down by said contracts it took him a while he was on the verge

of being in the hot seat he had i don't want to say the luxury of having, oh, I'm blanking on his name, the president, ex-president. Chris Klein. Thank you. He had the luxury of Chris Klein being there before him, or else that could be him as well. Out goes Chris Klein. In comes Wilkins. And this is a guy who absolutely knows what he is doing. So along with Greg Banney's very good coaching style in Major League Soccer

and his ability to bring in players and find players that can really make a difference, comes a guy who's really good with the books to help him do that. And look at the LA Galaxy today, first in the West. So I don't know what the situation will be for Greg Berhalter in terms of having somebody help him with said books, but I think it's imperative in a league like Major League Soccer.

Things don't just happen by chance. Yeah, this is going to be the, for us nerds at this show, this is going to be what we're watching, which is as much as we could talk about players, what does this staff look like? Because he has two jobs. Right. Does he decide I am going to bring in an experienced assistant coach and spend a lot of my energy as the sporting director? And I think right now we'll talk in a

moment about Josh Wolfe. There are some names out there that could make that sense. Or does he lean the other way and say, I'm going to bring in a GM who sits underneath me, who does a lot of this job. And we have seen Peter Vermees be both and sort of control things as the sporting director, almost all the time. We've seen Adrian Heath be both and Mark Watson was the GM and Adrian Heath was on top of both of them and it worked or it didn't. We've seen Bruce arena as well in that role,

choose different styles. I think you are right that no matter what Greg chooses, whoever the number two is in the front office has to be an MLS person who understands the nuances and the rules because Greg Berhalter shouldn't be sitting around saying, Oh, can we pop into this allocation draft and steal this spot so we can trade it back down for a hundred thousand like Chris Albright did five times when he first took over at Cincinnati. Those are the little nuances that he probably

shouldn't be wasting his time on, but the question will stand how he chooses to structure this whole thing and who he leans back into. Is it people coming out of his U.S. soccer time? Is it people coming out of his Columbus crew time? All of the above. He's been around for a while. He's got a lot of connections and there are a lot of names, I He's been around for a while. He's got a lot of connections. And there are a lot of names, I think, already in my text messages, I'm sure yours as well of, oh, watch out for this person, watch out for this person who has a background with him that could end up in Chicago over the next few years. And it's very tricky, because you've mentioned some guys like Adrian Heath, Peter Vermees, it doesn't always work out well. And I would argue,

like for those guys, it's not worked out well as of late. Well, doesn't always work out well. And I would argue like for those guys, it's not worked out well as of late. Well, one is not in the job and the other one is currently, you know, finding it very difficult, but it's not an easy thing to manage. But the national team managers, for whatever reason,

have found some success doing that type of business. Yep. So Josh Wolfe, former assistant for Greg Verhalter for a long time, currently available once again after he was let go by Austin FC yesterday. Rodolfo Burrell taking over about a year ago as the sporting director there. And Josh Wolfe just barely making it a full season under the new sporting director after the chaos that has been Austin FC. Some slightly positive moves over the course of the summer. Usman Bukhari brought in as a DP. Mike slightly positive moves over the course of the summer.

Usman Bukhari brought in as a DP. Mikel Dessler, two of the better performers. Again, a roster, and you talk about salary cap and structures, where there wasn't a lot of flexibility for Burrell to start to flip the roster. He has a little more coming up this offseason. Are you surprised by the timing of this at all in choosing to do it right before the last game and what's your expectation of where austin stands and like what type of profile of

coach they can approach for where they stand in major league soccer i'm not surprised by the timing if you're not going to keep them it doesn't matter if you let josh wolf go now or if you let it go the offseason what you're doing is you're sending the message you're sending the message that what you've been doing isn't good enough and that fans shouldn't give up on the team um even though there are still a few games to be played it's a message being sent um i believe it was four years for joshfe. One playoff appearance in those four years. A very good year for Austin, where they made it to the Western Conference Final and got smashed by LAFC.

I called that game for ESPN. I didn't expect Austin to lose at the Bank of California at that time. I didn't expect them to lose like that. And they unraveled. And they've been unraveling ever since. You've seen that fan base. You've seen what those home crowds can look like. You've seen the atmosphere and the buzz around the city for this team

and how popular it became in what is College Football Central. It became theirs. Celebrity ownership, if you will, Andrew Precourt and everything he did to get the team there. It almost feels like all that goodwill that the Austin fans had in that ownership, had in that team after year two, was being wasted, was going down the drain. So it's a message sent and something that needed to change. It's an absolutely important market, even though it's not a big media market.

I think it's an important market for Major League Soccer. Major League Soccer has the distinct ability to manufacture these really cool atmospheres that you don't see in other sporting venues across the U.S. Austin, Seattle, Toronto when it's buzzing, Cincinnati. You've got a slew of really just great atmospheres that are held together in said market that you don't want to lose. You don't want to have fans give up on because then they become the Chicago's. They become the San Jose's of yesteryear, that you don't want to lose. You don't want to have fans give up on because then they become the Chicago's.

They become the San Jose's of yesteryear, and you don't want that. So I think it's necessary. I think they've got a really cool thing happening there. But fans want to see not just a winner, and everybody wants a winner, and I think it's the product of living in the States and how the sporting systems are built, you know, parody any given year, your team has an opportunity, whether it's in the NFL or the NBA or not so much in baseball, but there are certain sports, you know, you've got a chance every single

year, major league soccer prides itself on its parody. And it gives you that opportunity to have a fighting chance. So when you're constantly being told you have a fighting chance and you're not even in the big game you're not even in the playoffs that's got to sting for these fans it's got to sting so you don't want to lose what you have going on right now so austin's got a good thing and i think uh they've got an opportunity to get it right um it's still a very young franchise but they've proved they've proven to have ambition in the way they bring players in and what they pay said players and transfers. Now you got to back it up. Rodolfo Burrell, his background is as a coach as well. So he could see him fall as,

decide he is the next Greg Berhalter as well and do both. But he, of course, Spanish himself, worked in the Manchester City CFG family for almost a decade, Liverpool before that, Barcelona before that. So his ties are pretty deep. You'd imagine he has a laundry list of names of soccer people that he trusts and values that he could offer, or he could choose to go in a different direction and say, is there someone whose ideas I like, who's more MLS experienced or whatnot that I want to bring in here? I think it's one of those where when we get to the name in the end, we won't be shocked. But I assume if we put together a list of who we think it'll be,

we may not even have that name on that list because of the soccer background that Rodolfo Burrell has. You tweeted out though, Dome Turet, again, would be one that made a ton of sense. Spanish background, CFG family, has MLS and now North American or Conmebol experience as well. That one makes a ton of sense if he's interested in coming back. We have connected him to every job over the last four years in MLS, and he has chosen not to, or everyone has chosen not to take the opportunity with him. And we're kind of, I think, still waiting to see if one will interest him. Yeah, he's a coach that's really interesting because every speak that's worked in or around with Dominic torrent has spoken very well of him and he's got experience in major league soccer where he's done listen to tell a new york city fan how

well a coach is done and not pick up and not be the coach you know to win something silverware is tough to swallow but he's a coach who did very well in major league soccer who's doing very well right now with what he has in the guy mechies san San Luis is a team that's, I don't think anybody, when they come to playoffs, wants to play against. They're currently in fifth. They keep moving up in the standings. They've beaten some very good teams this season.

Monterrey, who's probably one of the richest rosters in Latin America, was their latest victim last weekend. They play for the players that they have, a very attractive brand. And he's a coach that's well-recognized. He's well-recognized in Europe. He's well-recognized in Cominobo now, having a coach in Brazil.

He's now recognized in Major League Soccer and Liga Mekki Circles. He'd be a smart, very savvy hire because it's one thing to go say, we want to go get – I just throw in a name out there of a coach of roberto martinez and you get roberto martinez roberto martinez comes here and he's like what do you mean i can't get said play because i don't have an international slot what do you what do you mean i can't get we don't have the money here what what is gamp you know that's not going to surprise a guy like dominic torrent if anything i almost feel like he relishes that challenge, and he's done well in certain circumstances. San Luis is a limited squad.

They don't have the money that other clubs in Mexico have, and they've been competing like they do. This is a team that, quite frankly, if playoffs started today, I don't think many would want to play, would want to circle on their calendar like, yes, we've got a good opportunity here. He does a lot with not very much. Now, if you give him something, if you give him the opportunity to go out there with his now extensive Rolodex from the city group, from Comnable playing in Brazil, from his various North American, if you will, experiences. That could be a very attractive coach for what I think is an ambitious group in Austin. So I like him personally. I like what he's about. I like that he's one of these coaches that continues to try to stay relevant, stay in the know-how because these coaching courses and these new methods keep on changing i get phone calls all the time about dominic torrent in the deport his world and how

he keeps trying to come back to major league soccer it just makes sense to me yeah i think if if if they were to go down the route of we need somebody with mlx experience he'd be on top of the list and san luis has been a stepping stone type club, right? Jardine was their previous coach. He takes over Club America. We've seen the success they've had. It would make sense. We talked about the markets in MLS. We talked about ones that have success. I said in Miami, you walk out the street, it's pink everywhere. Go into a grocery store, they're selling messy jerseys. This is something I think to me, it matches what Atlanta has done in their heyday. It matches what it felt like in Toronto during their heyday. That's a lot off the field.

Let's start on the field and then we'll get to the off field. This team now clinched supporter shield. If they beat the New England Revolution on the final day of the season, they set the points record for a single season in Major League Soccer history. Where does this inter-Miami team, in your mind, rank with the all-time great sides of this league? And I think when you say that, I sort of, as I listed some of these out, you think 2019 LAFC, Carlos Vela's record season, points record as well,

2021 Rev set the points record. Red Bulls right before that. Toronto's double seasons. I think Seattle Sounders, you kind of have to choose one. And I don't know which year you would choose, but you have to choose one around the 2014 to 19 years. Robbie Keene as well. Yeah, you would have to choose Seattle's Concraft Champion Cup winning year.

Okay. I think that would be, you know, yeah. Listen, we won an MLS Cup, you would have to choose Seattle's Concab Champion Cup winning year. Okay. I think that would be, you know, yeah. Listen, we won an MLS Cup, you know, being one of the worst teams in the regular season and making a run. That had nothing to do with how the Seattle Sounders won a Championships Cup. But they're, you know, Robbie King's, you know, back-to-back-to-back, you know, years. You can go also the LA Galaxy V4 team, one of the first teams to win the Champions Cup. You can go the DC United years, which were absolutely insane. Yeah, man.

I will throw an asterisk right there for Miami, though, that's in favor to some of the other teams. As far as the regular season, the New England Revolution, that – and it's very poetic that they're going to play against new england to rip that title they wrote that record away from new england but that new england revolution i don't recall them playing against st louis i don't recall them playing against inter miami you know they had to do it against less teams there's less games less opportunities to earn those points and so forth before them and there's a reason probably that if you look at the records every year it seems like it's being broken and we're in expansion years so i get points and so forth before them and there's a reason probably that if you look at the records every year it seems like it's being broken and we're in expansion years so i get it there are

more games and whatnot uh but it seems like it tells me that the league is trying to be ambitious and the teams that are doing well are the teams that you know has spent to do well you look at the new england club and who they had you can say historically new england's not spent but look at that year it's like carlos hill uh you had a la pantera you know up top yeah you had matt turner in goal you know he had some very good players on that team um every year it seems like the bar is being pushed if you will but that's the only negative i would put on this or asterix i would put on this inner team is you know they've had more games to do it. As far as what we see on the field, that is different though.

Like that puts them in a different category. I liken them to the globetrotters right now. That's what it seems like. You know, you come to see the globetrotters put on a show, they put on a show and there's no better showman on earth than, than Lionel Messi. It's Messi and friends and what he is doing is completely changing uh major league soccer in a way that we've not seen since

since david beckham um i live in two different worlds uh the u.s north american world uh in english and the latin american world in spanish on espn and i don't recall Major League Soccer being covered the way it's covered with Messi on some of these programs in Spanish like it is now he's completely gotten everybody to pay attention to inter Miami you're saying right now you likened it to the Atlanta years I don't think anybody outside of Atlanta was wearing an Atlanta jersey. You can go to L.A. You can go to Seattle. You can go to Canada.

You can go to Mexico. They're going to be wearing inter-Miami jerseys. I don't even think they've ever set foot in the greater area of Dade County. They're wearing inter-Miami jerseys. So it goes to show you the power of Messi. Now, as far as best team ever, I go with the Toronto team that in 2017 pretty much won it all. They were penalty kicks away from winning the Champions Cup against Chivas.

2-1 at home and then 2-1 in Guadalajara, and they go to penalty kicks and lose it but that was a team that won the canadian cup uh won mos cup uh and they did it in a way where they would just smash teams they didn't have a messy they didn't have a louis suarez they didn't have a busquets they didn't have a gi Bradley, they had a Jose Altidore, you know, they had a Jonathan Osorio, a Marky Delgado, they had Bono and Goal, they had these players

that together were very difficult to play against, and for about a year and a half, almost two years, completely ran Major League Soccer. They leave out Sebastian Fiobinco, by the way, they had a record holder, a guy that I've never seen a player come into major league soccer and for a full season terrorize defenders like that because messi's only done it for half

a season right the sebastian joe binko years were insane and those toronto years were insane for my money that's the best team in mls history yeah the similarity there is the depth, right? Those Toronto teams, Victor Vasquez, then one step down. Yes. Benoit Cheru came off the bench a lot. Justin Morrow. Yeah, absolutely. So that depth was huge. I went back through the last three record setting teams and this Miami team has six players who have played000 minutes or more this year, right? Full-time starters is what I would call it, every game. That New England team had 10, and 2019 LAFC had nine. It shows you the depth of quality on this Miami team outside of just the Messi and friends and the stars and all of that.

It's why this has been possible with Messi only playing half a season is that quality and is that depth. It has led to one of the debates around all this, which I'm sure you have done many times, but I haven't gotten your opinion here. MVP and coach of the year. Can you say the team is deep and that's why they win and Messi's MVP only playing half a year? And can you say the team's as talented as it is and Tata is coach of the year if talent is really what wins? Dude, I got to give Tata Martino a lot of credit. And in my world, there are those who cannot conceive uttering Tata Martino is responsible for the success.

Like it's not in their nature for what happened with Mexico. It's not in their nature for what happened with mexico it's not in our nature for what they've seen cata martino is a very good coach and he seems to understand major league soccer very well and we got to give chris henderson a ton of credit because he's done amazing things there riding the ship and putting the players players in major league soccer are are part of a puzzle and these guys in the front office are the guys who put the puzzle together to make it work there's been nobody better lately than chris henderson but that's a martino he's gonna tell you what that puzzle is gonna look like so when

the picture's there when you see the image you're like oh that's a pretty dope puzzle he's been that guy and he's proven it now at atlanta and he's proven now here in inter miami we could say messy messy messy and trust me a massive part of that is messy because without messy you don't get suarez you don't get busquets you don't get jordi alba i'll tell you what you don't get diego gomez without messy i firmly believe that you don't get these players without messy so messy is the singular singular most important piece that you have but Dr. Martino's got to be the guy because you knew at some point Messi wouldn't be there to make sure when he's not there because I don't think anybody would have bet that he would have not gotten injured

this year when he's not there can you still run a tight ship and they've been great man they've been fun to watch they've been as advertised i said the harlem globe turtles i firmly believe it at times they embarrass teams and tata martino is a major reason for that they have um gotten some ridiculous results as well just to get here 93rd minute goal of course this weekend it has been a special season uh and i think i think you're right there's no way to avoid the fact that tazza martino has been able to push the right buttons at the right time to get the right production out of the right play i still i'd still go with for nancy for for mls coach of the year though yeah just

because teams are some of your parts right like if it's if that's the sum of your part like there's nobody who does more with less and makes it look just so great like if all of a sudden we put different names on the back of that jersey if we put suarez busquets if we put jordi alba you wouldn't flinch and it's the juan jones it's you know darlington agby it's cucho hernandez it's diego rossi it's not these players i just mentioned but they're just as good just as effective and wil And Wilford Nance, he is the reason why. So I like Wilford Nance personally. I would give him MLS coach of the year, but you couldn't go wrong if you picked out the Martino. Wilford Nance has my heart, so I don't know that he gets my vote as well. I think he's the best coach in MLS. I think they're my favorite team to watch. But if you're saying more with less,

has anyone done more with less than Chris Armas? I mean, you at least have Cucho and Diego Rossi in Columbus. You're talking about Kevin Cabral as your DP in Colorado, and you're pushing for potentially top three in the Western Conference. Say it again? Did you use Chris Armas? Yes. I'm trying to think. Kevin cabral is it ep even though the galaxy is still paying for a large portion of that exactly which is even worse for the reality of your roster and of your franchise now this becomes i'm just trying to this is this is the issue here i'm trying to think of the highlight of the colorado rapids this year, and it's League's Cup. Yeah, right. It's League's Cup. Right.

And that's the issue here. And I can give you so many great games, entertaining games, from both Tata Martino and Wilford Nanzi. And it's just, to me, there are coaches who, and I don't want to discredit Chris Armas because it's a massive achievement of bringing Colorado where they are today with the names that he has at his disposal. Let's not beat around the bush. Colorado's been historically bad throughout the years and for good reason.

So you've got to give him credit. But when you're talking coach of the year, I'm thinking like, all right, who absolutely just brings it every time? His team is must-watch TV. And there's only about two coaches on that list. Yep. Yep. I don't disagree with that at all. I think this is going to be a fun debate to have. And we have some mailbag questions I'll get to later in this week

about what these awards should be called maybe because that's part of the problem is what is an MVP versus best player, coach of the year versus best coach, all of those things. Can I ask you a question, Dave? Do you take issue with 22 coaches being named to the Sidney Schmidt Coach of the Year Award? Why? You think it should be 30? You think everyone should be a nominee at this point?

Well, Ian Russell's on that short list. The short list. I'm doing air quotation right now. What place are the San Jose Earthquakes in? He's an interim, too. He hasn't even coached enough. And he's an interim, too. Yes, yes.

Yeah, I think if you put someone on that list, you're in danger of people voting for them. I think they're trying to cast as wide a net as possible. But that's how you end up. I think Juergen Klinsmann got voted ball and door something recently. And he hasn't even been a coach of a team in all of that. So if you go into an open voting system, you get chaos everywhere. Messi last year with four games in Major League Soccer was an MVP candidate. Exactly.

So let me ask you this one. Let me close on this for the Miami conversation. You talk about being in both worlds and the jerseys and everything. Off the field, do you think that Messi has done and Miami has done what they should with him? Do you think Major League Soccer has done what it should to maximize the potential of growing the league and growing interest and all of that in this time with him in the league? No, not even close. In Lionel Messi, you have the singular most important person,

probably in the history of the game right now, if you think about it. There is no athlete with the reach of Lionel Messi because of tablets, phones, social media today. And you've given him stock in a team, future ownership. You've given him MLS subscription packages. He's going to get money per every subscription on Apple, MLS season pass. You've given him merchandising, shirt sales, whatever the case may be. And you've not by any means even come close to maximizing him in the way you should have. And this is probably more on Apple than it is Major League Soccer. Major League Soccer today, for those who don't know, are a network.

They have to produce their games. They signed a $2.5 billion deal for 10 years with Apple. I guarantee over $120, $130 million a year are going to producing said games in Spanish, in English, some in French, in hiring talent and running production. So what are you left over that is worth it to limit your reach? You're betting on the future. That would be great if they maximized on the single biggest proponent they have of maximizing the future, which is Lionel Messi. You've left the big boys, and I'm not just saying this because I work at ESPN, but you left Fox. You've left UDNA, and you left ESPN. Massive machines in marketing and using info and getting your product to the masses. I lived in Los Angeles for five to six years and I drove across the 110 and 405 every single day of my life to go to ESPN. And when they went to Apple, what is today probably the premier rivalry game in Major League Soccer, the LA Galaxy versus LAFC. I still think

it's the Seattle Sounders in Portland because there's history there. But many, and rightfully so, think it's LAFC versus the LA Galaxy, El Trafico. Unless I drove down the 405 in front of Dignity Health Sports Park and saw their announcement on their big screen, or unless I went down the 110 and saw LAFC's announcement for El Trafico this weekend, I had no idea it was going on. Why? Because I would have to go specifically to Apple. And then from Apple specifically to MLS season pass.

And then there, look for the game to just see that there is a game. No alternate or surrounding programming around said product. Where before, do the NA would host interviews with Joseph Martinez while he was playing in Atlanta, would come down and talk to Carlos Vela at LAFC, and it would be around Línea de Cuatro. It would be around their noticiero, their news station, or ESPN Sports Center, a top 10, or in Spanish, their sports center with an interview on whomever, or Aura Nunca doing a segment on El Clasico or Football Americas, you know,

who didn't have the rights to major league soccer when they went to Apple because they wouldn't concede said rights. So you've taken the biggest, most attractive singular piece in the history of major league soccer, and you've hidden it in a way that we've never seen before that's anti-Major League Soccer because the Chicharitos of the world, the Landon Donovans of the world, the Slatons of the world, the David Beckhams of the world have all done the late ninth circuit.

They've all done ESPN. They've all done Fox, and they've all done Tud they've all done fox and they've all done through the inning they've not shied away from it and the biggest catch you have right now won't do it and hasn't done it and it's behind a product where nobody sees it and that is detrimental to the league so you talk about messi's reach but that's not his personality exactly how much of it is who he is and how much of it is the setup that you talked about which i don't disagree with you go behind a paywall you go into private area you don't walk into a bar and see an inter miami game on in the world right it's not going to happen unless you're at an inter miami supporters bar

because it's not available so if that's not his personality wouldn't it be more important to have programming around it programming around a guy who won't talk and listen won't talk to you that's a reality he's not going to talk to english media or spanish media in the united states but we could pull up a bunch of interviews where he's done with youtubers in spanish where he's done with argentine press where he holds his out with you know comedians he will go out there for certain sectors mls soccer just can't obligate him to do it here because he won't so if he won't talk well alternate programming yeah where are these shows on apple you know why not do that you know why

not have something where you're talking about the game where they're dissecting the game i think that's the next step for major league soccer is getting their product to the masses because i'm a firm believer in in apple and apple. I own it. And the Apple product. Yes, I believe in the product. Where's Major League Soccer's side of this? That's the issue here. You don't want – NHL had a massive problem years ago where they could sell out arenas in any city in the United States, but who was watching it on TV?

Max Kellerman would always say that. That was the NHL problem. Don't let this be the MLS problem. NHL has come back in a massive way, but they're playing with some big boys now. You've got to be out there to the masses. That's how your product grows. Yeah, there's been some debate points. I mean, we've done on this show, I've had the question.

My big thing is I do think the in-stadium experience in MLS is the most sellable thing. And every time Messi comes to the market, you move a game to an NFL stadium. You add more fans, but it's an NFL experience. It's not an MLS experience, right? So now you don't have people that can say, you know, if you've never been to Sporting Park before in Kansas City and you go to see Miami at Arrowhead, you don't know the experience then that you've missed. So I have some other points there as well, but I think yours make a ton of sense. I want to let you get out of here. So let me ask you two quick questions before you

go. One, future after Messi, MLS needs to continue to exist. There is no person like him, but I did find it interesting this week that Paul Pogba had a court case in which it was announced that he would be allowed to return to play professional soccer earlier than the expected suspension. And then the rumors started immediately about MLS. He is not messy. suspension to me and his reach as a personality and as a cult figure and at his age and all of this story, I think is as close as you can get. And I think it's imperative that someone in MLS brings him in the first contract he signs after coming out of this suspension. I mean, it makes a ton of sense, right? And Paul Pogba, we don't know what the Paul Pogba today, a year and a half after being away from the game,

is going to look like. And it's not like the Paul Pogba who was active before the suspension was absolutely killing it anyways. But a Paul Pogba in Major League Soccer, somewhat reminiscent of his abilities before the suspension, would be an absolute steal for Major League Soccer. And there are a few markets who could very much so use him. of his abilities before the suspension would be an absolute steal for major league soccer and there are a few markets who could very much so use him i know we're going to bring up the la markets

in the new york new york market um let's say those aren't the markets because most high profile athletes look for that they'll look at warm weather in florida or they'll look at the la markets or the new york markets it's what i want to be. Let's say for the sake of argument, you can't be in any of those markets. What if he was in Montreal? You know, what if he was in the French Quebec? What if he was in Toronto or what if he was in Columbus with the French coach? You know, like that would be something for me that I would think for him would be pretty

cool to get away of the limelight, so to speak, in a way where he can live his life and enjoy the game again. And for Major League Soccer, expanding their footprint in maybe some markets where you could desperately need it or use it. Yeah. Yeah. I would be – if Paul Pogba ends up in Columbus, Ohio, that would be the weirdest universe that we could fall into.

But Atlanta, I think, is one that you have to mention and would make sense it doesn't fit anything about the mo of philadelphia or dc but again you're talking about expanding the fun part get out of the just the two big cities of new york and la and those are big cities i think where you can appeal to a person like that to live in and enjoy it i just i just think if i'm paulogba and I'm in my latter years, do I want to go play on turf? You know, if I,

if I had, cause you're probably gonna take a pay cut. If I'm taking a pay cut, if I'm doing these things, how would I want to enjoy my football? I don't know if turf would be the most fun for me. Yeah. And that's going to be something that Atlanta always has to face if they

want to be in these conversations going forward. Let me finish with this one. We are into a national team camp. It has happened. We talked Greg Berhalter at the beginning of the show. That's not the conversation anymore. Mauricio Pochettino taking over. We've seen some clips come out from his first camp,

obviously a ton of injuries. So he's had to sort of flip the roster pretty quickly going into a friendly against Panama and Mexico, which is probably our reality for the next year and a half is a lot of friendlies against Canada and Mexico and Panama and the other teams in the region as they try and find games in between nation leagues and world cup qualifings and all these things for the rest of the world. What are you thinking about this week?

What are you thinking about as Pochettino as, as manager of this team? And what do you like? What, what if I, if I brought you on in a week after these two games, what would make you feel like it was a worthwhile first camp? Not losing, one.

Two teams that I think are very, very tricky. Panama, who has just been a kind of thorn in your side for the U.S. Men's national team over the last few years. And Mexico and Mexico, which historically has not, you know, bode well for the U.S. men's national team. The only victory was 2012, a friendly 1-0. I was there. I started that game.

That's it. That's your victory on Mexican soil in its history. Now, this won't be in the Azteca. Maybe that's a benefit for the U.S. Maybe that's a benefit for the Mexican national team. I'm being honest. We don't know. And I think what worries me most about this call-up is you don't have at your disposal, if you're Mauricio Pochettino a full team, what you could really expect to be a full team. If you look at U.S. men's national team eligible players that have been called up

within the last year, probably some 10, 11 players, if not more, right? Big players, there are uncertainty around these players. Matt Turner, who doesn't play anymore. Throwing Zach Steffen into that mix, what's that going to mean for Zach Turner? Because he feels Zach Steffen's breath behind his neck. Tim Rehm, he's not the same Tim Rehm that went to the World Cup in Qatar. Great guy, good leader, certainly lost a step, and that's why he's in the Premier League

and hasn't exactly looked like himself in Charlotte. Chris Richards, injured. Serginio Dest, injured. What happens if Joe Scali goes down? What's that going to look like? Anthony Robinson, unbelievable moment, you know? No Tyler Adams. No. No Tyler Adams. No successor to Tyler Adams.

Johnny Cardoso also injured, and he's not exactly proven himself to be that guy when he's gotten the opportunity. Eunice Moussa doesn't play. Tim McKinney not in his great national team moment, even though he's turning around with Juventus. Luca De La Torre is out injured. Brendan Aronson has not played well for the U.S. Men's National Team in I don't know how long, probably before World Cup 2022 in Qatar. He was a very big proponent of Greg Berhalter in the World Cup qualifying campaign, did very well.

Timothy Weah didn't shower himself in glory the last time he was in the U.S. Men's National Team jersey. Haji Wright was benched for like four or five games at Coventry City nobody knows why he just re-earned his position by the way that position not being the ninth position Ricardo Pepe never plays when he does play he does well but Luke DeJone who's like PSV's best player and last season's Eredivisie MVP is standing in his way you've got Josh Sargent who keeps killing it at the club level what was at three campaigns where he's killed it for Norwich. But he's not really played with the U.S. men's national team since Qatar, yet Copa America, and played how much?

How'd that go? This last call-up against Canada and New Zealand, he didn't even feature. Nobody knows why. Maki Beres didn't say anything. And then you've got Foller and Balogun, who everybody keeps waiting to explode, who has shown some flashes here or there um and finally some consistency with monaco and uh

gets injured so there are so many different things up in the air that if i'm mauricio pochettino you know what do you get out of this tournament or out of this excuse me what do you get out of these uh two games just i guess a base of seeing some players because your opinion of what you already know is not going to really change. You already know Christian Pulisic is your best player. You don't need to see him up close. You're going to know you're going to need to have him yes or yes, absolutely. And, you know, you know that you can't count on Tyler Adams because you've not been able to.

So you don't have him at your disposal. So if I'm Pochettino, I'm a bit worried of what I have and what I don't have right now. It's going to be an interesting one. It is not the camp everyone thought we would see, but this is the nature of a national team manager. You get players for five, seven days, and you have to figure out how to get your ideas there and help spread it out, and you can't go out and acquire new players. So this was the challenge of bringing any club coach to be a national team coach for the first time. Pochettino now, I believe, has talked about potentially coaching Argentina in the future. So he's only two days in and he's already loving it

enough, clearly, that it could be the future. But I think a lot of excitement for everyone and a lot of excitement for us. Herc, I appreciate you taking the time. Thanks for coming on to talk. Always love getting your opinion on things. If you for somehow consume this show, especially in English, and you don't consume Football Americas, you're out of your mind because it is everything

we want this show to be. So you should go and do that. And of course, everything else that Herc works on as well. So thanks for taking the time and hopefully we'll have you on again pretty soon. I appreciate it, David.

Thank you so much, man. And keep doing the good work. I didn't know that your boy got married. Another one bites the dust. Permanent transfer. Saludos to Tom. We'll see you next time.