SoccerWise - NWSL Edition: New CBA Details w/NWSL PA President Tori Huster & Susie Cirilli

Episode Date: August 28, 2024

A special episode of Soccerwise in reaction to the historic CBA agreement between NWSL and The NWSL PA. After David goes over some of the details of the new deal NWSL PA President Tori Huster takes us behind the scenes. Tori answers it all how did this happen? What does it mean for players? What is next? And so much more. And then David brings in a legal expert Susie Cirilli a partner at Ellenoff Grossman and Schole working in the labor and employment group specializing in sports. Susie helps us through some of the language around this deal and gives us some other topics to be thinking about going forward. 2:25 New CBA Details 10:45 Interview With NWSL PA President Tori Huster 29:39 Interview With Susie Cirilli Partner at Ellenoff Grossman and Schole Soccerwise Live 2pm ET Every Tuesday/Wednesday/Thursday on Youtube/Twitch/Twitter

Hey everybody, welcome to SoccerWise, I'm David Goss, of course, with you here for our Wednesday edition of NWSL Show. A different episode though today because we've got, of course, the exciting breaking news coming out over the last week about the new CBA signed between NWSL The League and the NWSL Players Association. So we're going to do a different episode here. We're going to have two guests on to talk to us about what went down, to talk to us about the details, about this deal, to explain to us how it could change the sport, how it could change these players' lives, as well as some things maybe we didn't think of when it first came out.

So Jordan will not be with me on this show. She is away for the day, and in place, we've got two big guests. We've got Tori Huster, president of the NWSL Players Association, to talk about the experience of getting this done and what all the different details mean. And so much more that this is a person who has lived this deal and helped finally finish and sign this deal over the last 18 months. And then we're going to have a lawyer come in, Susie Cirilli, who specializes in labor for her law firm, specifically in sports, to give us a different angle of how to think about some of these details, how it changes the landscape from a legal point of view, and maybe some other things coming in the future. So we're going to dig into this deal. If you haven't seen it, here are some of the details.

Now a reminder, this CBA has been signed. Some of these rules are in effect immediately. Free agency will begin on September 1st. So on Sunday coming up, we are so excited to cover all of that as the news starts to trickle in for this first ever time here at SoccerWise. And some rules will take effect after this season or before the next season, fully take effect January 1st, 2025. So all of these things you're hearing, they may not be affecting what's going on right now, but they will be the new reality for the clubs and players in NWSL. Every player has to

clear all trades now going forward after this season. Open free agency for every single player when their contract is finished. As I said, that starts on September 1st. It will start earlier in the year going forward. There's a certain time period before each contract expires, when it will open. I believe it was six weeks before a contract expires and contracts expire at the end of the season. But because the deal just got done this year, it was pushed back to September 1st. Guaranteed contracts for all players once they sign their deals, those deals and that money is guaranteed to them over the life of the contract. And contracts will be changing over the course of the next few years because the salary cap is going to raise year after year,

at least 20% with added revenue then going on top of the base salary, that the players are going to share a portion of the revenue that the league brings in to move the salary cap even higher off the yearly base salary. Some other things that have come out, and the entire CBA has not been published publicly yet, so we don't know all the details in there, and we don't know even what all these elements look like. We will talk to Tori about some of it when she comes on increased child care benefits increased parental leave

as well as improved fertility coverage for the players increased medical staff both physical and mental inside of each club for the players this includes and i thought this was fascinating i believe megan burkle talked about this on one of the interviews she's already done this week of each club for the players. This includes, and I thought this was fascinating, I believe Megan Burkle talked about this on one of the interviews she's already done this week, saying that there is a surface expert who will inspect all practice and game playing surfaces and send a report back to the league, the club, as well as the players association to make sure that all of those surfaces are safe for players. And the other big one that we've heard about is the elimination of the draft. It is the elimination of the draft for college players coming into NWSL,

as well as for expanse in draft going forward. So a huge moment as this becomes now the NWSL, the first league ever to eliminate the college player draft in north american sports for a league that already had it a big moment for the freedom of movement of players and their ability to decide what their careers look like where they want to play who they want to play for the teams they want to be a part of and a big moment for the future of the league and it is something that has been talked about already. The ability for NWSL to compete with

and potentially even push itself above the best leagues in the world. These rules, these new agreements bring this league in line more with what soccer looks like around the world and allows it to remain competitive. NWSL in bringing the best players over now a chance for players to come into a setting that makes more sense to them one where

they have the freedom and power to control where they play and what their lives are set up like and you have to think we've seen NWSL be extremely competitive over the last 12 months in bringing the best players in from around the world that will only increase with moves like this where it becomes more straightforward and simpler for players to add themselves into nwsl i will say this with the elimination of the player draft with the elimination of the college draft i would love to see a signing day of some sort of some sort of ceremonial moment, where you can have the media buzz where you can have fans be engaged on that one day. So whether it's announcing a day where all college players can first announce where they will be signing,

and then you can have a setup like you have with a draft where broadcasters can educate on those players and how they're going to fit into those teams and teams can talk about how excited they are. And players can have their moment where they take the picture and hold the jersey and wear the hat or whatever it is, put on the scarf, all those different things. The draft makes sense to eliminate immediately for players. You want the best players going into the best situations. You want the best players coming into NWSL. But you want to have that tentpole moment. That's what leagues, that's what sports, that's what events are built around. When you go and look at the biggest leagues in the world, they build their seasons and their course of their calendar over tentpole moments where

everyone all of a sudden is paying attention. So whether it's a championship game or an all-star game or a draft, those are the moments where you can guarantee you're gonna generate buzz and build other events around and other announcements around. So I would love to see something replace that. And I don't think it's that hard. When you talk about in college sports, a signing day where all of the best high school players

announce where they're gonna go and you have these wraparound shows that bounce from house to house and from event hall to event hall saying where these players are going to be. It would be really cool to see something like that. And I think there's a ton of potential for that, as well as, of course, for this entire deal. NWSL is going to continue to get better.

It's going to continue to get more competitive because of these moves. And I think we should all be really excited about that. We have heard the effect that last year's Women's World Cup performance has had on this. And it should be noted the idea that the national teams that are very heavily built out of NWSL, especially the US, as well as Canada, of course, Northern Super League coming as well, are going to be strengthened by these leagues being strengthened. And I think you're going to see over the course of the next few months and next year or so, some really good players come into NWSL and some really good teams be built and players finding the right situation. That's what's really exciting. You look at the moves

that are made sometimes and you say, why does this team need a third center back? Or why would this team pick up a left back when they play with wingbacks? Could these players now find the right spots for themselves and figure out ways for them to be the best player they can be because they're comfortable, because they're motivated, because they're close to home or happy? Whatever it is, there are so many reasons to pick where you live and what you want to do. We've already had questions about small market teams and how they'll compete. I talked about that a bit on Monday in one of our mailbag questions.

With one of our mailbag questions, it's going to be about creating the best pitch to players and having the best facilities and having the best atmosphere and having high-level coaches and clear ideas and going to college players and saying, if you come here, this is the setup we play in. This is how we think you're going to fit. This is going to be the best for your career. This is going to be a spot where you're comfortable and trusted and you are going to be able to push on and be the best player you can be. I think all those pitches still work. And I don't think there's a situation where every player is going to say, I have to go play for Gotham. I want to live in New York City.

That's the only thing I want to do. Players have desires to win championships and to be the best player they can be or to play the game in a way that they enjoy. And when you look around the league and you start to see differences in the styles of teams and the setups of teams, I think you're going to start to see situations where players say, that's what I identify with. That's what I want to go be a part of. So it's going to be fascinating to watch. I cannot wait to cover it here on SoccerWise over the time coming up. And of course, as I said, free agency dropping on Sunday. So next week already, we might have some news coming out of all of that. We are not going to talk, of course, about the weekend's games as much on this show or at all. A great weekend of coverage. We've updated our depth charts based

off a lot of the moves we've seen and a lot of the positions players have taken up. So if you want to subscribe to our Patreon, you can get access to our depth charts you can go and look to see where we put players and how teams are set up and you know how deep teams are now as they start to add and take away from different positions kansas city adding two center backs but also getting rid of a center back over the course of the last week so a lot going on you can go follow it all there and of course you get access to our discord where we're talking about all these things and all these teams as well. All right, enough of me talking to myself about this. Let's talk to someone who really matters and someone who is very involved.

We've got president of the NWSL Players Association, the person who got this all done, Tori Hooster, to come and join us. Tori, how are you? Good, David. And you definitely still matter. But thanks for having me. Thanks for having me on. Excited to chat today.

It has been a hectic week for you to end what has been a hectic year, year and a half. It sounds like from what I've heard of the way these negotiations have gone. So I appreciate you taking the time to join us. Let's start with behind the scenes. Like how does this all start? And does every player get an envelope to fill out and say, these are the things I want? Like, how do you work across a whole league to accomplish something like this? That's a great question. I think when we signed the first ever collective bargaining agreement back in 2022, we did not anticipate coming back to the table so quickly. I think with the, with three of the teams that have a lot of players through the national teams

that have a significant amount of NWSL players in our league, Canada, US, Brazil, all kind of bumming out a little bit early within the World Cup tournament last year. The conversations around staying ahead and not letting the rest of the world pass us by. of being ready to make improvements, not having to wait until 2026. And certainly within the next six years, this country is going to see a lot of soccer and that's going to be really fun. And we wanted to get ahead of that. So the league, credit to them, sent us notice that they'd like to discuss a certain number of topics and themes at bargaining again. But it was all voluntary.

And then we sent back our list of things that were very important to us. And we started bargaining again. In terms of the, yeah, trying to communicate across 14 different markets for a union that is as small as we are is not easy um and i think we saw we saw trust and the ability to communicate across a lot of markets with a lot of um yeah we represent over 400 players um through through 2020 we got pretty good at that we had a lot of practice and then throughout the the next couple of years uh the past couple of years it's been a lot of practice doing that and staying in touch our player reps that we have we have two and an alternate rep on

each each team they do a lot of work um and sometimes i'm sure for them it feels like a full-time job and they're mid-season too so having been a recent player myself um it's definitely it's it's hard sometimes it's difficult and for those players that gave their time and energy towards this process i mean kudos to them it's definitely it's not an easy thing one of the things i found interesting um and you just talked about it in the World Cup and the way it affects the negotiation and what's happened, is it's an international league now. There are a lot of players who are not American or Canadian who the league matters to them. It's where they live and but they have different relationships with it

than what's the future of the sport in this country or what's the future of the national team or their relationship with what the draft means. How is it operating in this organization where for a lot of international players, maybe they haven't really heard of a Players Association or a CBA in the past where they come from versus it's very popular and strong in North America. Yeah, definitely. There's, you know, in some other countries, I think there may be some corruption when it comes to players unions and labor unions and the labor movement, even in their country politically. And so really trying to allow them the chance to see us for what we are and getting in front of them at the beginning of the season. Again, we rely on our player reps to share what we're all about and what the benefit is to being represented by the union is. And all of those little things kind of lead up to the point where it's like we can attract that talent here because they feel like they are protected here as well.

And they're not as, you know, nervous or there's not as much anxiety to move across the globe to play in the best league in the world. That there are certain protections that they're now used to in their country. But now we have them here, there won't be as many barriers to entry. But they'll also know that if a problem arises, they don't necessarily need to look to their home country for support, that they have somebody that is in the same market, in the same country that they can call with any issues issues and we've had a significant number of conversations and feedback from international players always trying to help support them as much as possible i've played myself overseas but it was in australia so um that was a pretty easy transition

but there's yeah you throw in language barriers in their different tax system different health care system it's all it's all it's a lot. And we're definitely here to support and it's it's our job to make sure that they understand that. Let's talk about the protections and the freedoms, though, because that's a lot of what you guys fought for. In this CBA. It's a lot of what we've heard come out so far, obviously not the official language out publicly. I'm sure you've seen it and read through it many, many times. So when you read through it, what's bookmarked? What's's earmarked what are you most proud of what makes you smile every time you come across it oh gosh i mean the headliners free agency um guaranteed contracts

no trades without player consent which start in 2025 but free agency coming up right around the corner, September 1, players will have the opportunity to look across the market and see where they may may want to live, what team they may have the best opportunity to play on what team has the best opportunity to win a championship at what are some of these other benefits that teams are willing to do? There's some teams that treat mothers in our league very well. And if I'm a mom, I'm looking for that. And there's so many different things that go into how a player may come to decide that they want to play at a team. But I think that's the biggest part for me is that they have a voice in the decision about their own lives, and they can prioritize accordingly. And now, obviously, there is another side of the equation where the club needs to also want them on the team, but they can

meet to discuss and it's a mutual conversation at this point. So free agency for me is, I think that's super exciting. I think the other headliner everyone is talking about is the elimination of the draft. And that's all drafts. That's not just the college draft. It's expansion draft. We even eliminated Discovery. Discovery was an interesting process for international players to be able to enter the league and we uh affected immediately

um in 2025 that will not be a thing anymore um and it's definitely yeah i think it just opens up the doors for players to have more agency over things that affect their lives the elimination of the draft and you mentioned discovery, was the other part of this that fascinated me in reading everything I have. And I'm not an expert in this space, you are, so feel free to correct me. But I think a lot of CBA negotiations that I've read about in the NFL and NBA and these other spaces, it ends up being that the veteran senior players kind of skew things towards themselves. Like, I think one of the stories was the NFL players were upset that first round draft

picks were getting so much money without having played. And in theory, a union is supposed to protect their members, which are already in the league. And a lot of the NBA contracts we see build money out as players go along because the leaders of the union are players who are veterans, like a Chris Ball and things like that. There is a lot of this that feels like it is built for players who aren't in the league yet. When you talk about eliminating the draft, when you talk about eliminating discovery, it feels more from the outside like veterans looking back and saying, how can we make it better for the future generation? Did you guys have that conversation or that thought process? We did. And I think where it came into play the most was when we when we talked about the economics of the deal. And and when you think about our league, we're in comparison to an NFL or NBA.

We're not talking about millions of dollars yet hopefully we're talking about millions of dollars in just a couple of years um but we're not talking about that amount of money yet and so when you think about our minimum salaried players they're not making six figures um where in a lot of those other leagues they they are and that's that's great they have built themselves to that place. And we're hopeful that we get there. But our minimum salary players are players that play and compete in our league as well. But it's hard in some of these markets for them to save money or pay for housing.

They have to take team provided housing um and our our middle and top earners know how important their lived experience is to compete in the league and so up and down the roster it is about leaving nobody behind and when we talked about the economics of the deal that was that was a huge piece of it um in terms of some of the player rights uh issues we understand that once we once we give more agency to players um and when when the players win even if even if somebody is still under contract um they will you know when they go up go to renegotiate their contract they'll be able to take um advantage of those same player rights that players now will have and it it really is like once the players win

we all win and i think once people understand that and and really take that on i think the whole league is just going to be in such a better place um but players for sure veterans rookies alike really just have each other's backs. And it's pretty cool to see. It is really special to see. I think that was one of the things that was really exciting. It's been really fun to watch sort of the excitement around this and the celebration from current players. We've seen the comments from Trini Rodman and Alex Morgan. What have you made of the reaction on this thing that you've lived for a long time

and now the rest of the world is getting to see for the first time? I'm just really proud. There's so much work that goes into it behind the scenes. And honestly, sitting at in-person bargaining in the middle of July, really proud of the group that we had there together. And then also the players that we had call in on Zoom. We did in-person bargaining in their mid-season break. And so

there were five current players that showed up in their vacation. And then many more players on the Zoom just popping in and out to understand what was going on. And there's, yeah, there's a level of pride that comes for being able to, you know, being called upon to lead during these types of situations and things where it's a complete learning experience for me. But then to be in a room, you know, sitting shoulder to shoulder with people that are there to push this league forward, and even people across the table that are there to improve the league. I think it's, it's a great sense of pride that I that I

have felt through this whole process. I would assume it is one of the toughest gym sessions post CBA negotiation in the world. Or did we did we get three V threes going in the parking lot? We were so tired. It was, it was so funny. Um, I mean, we, I'm talking like 2 AM mornings, mornings, late nights. I don't know what you call it at that point, but, um, back to back days of that too. Uh, a lot of fatigue and I think even like myself, I I'm recently retired and i'm i'm not used to sitting all day and i know the the players that were there were like can we go for a run you know

it's a different it's a different fatigue um and your body just gets so stiff and all that so we did not do 3v3s um but we did drink lots of coffee and that's always fun. Yeah, I think it reaches a point where it stops being fun at some hour at the night, but that's a good point. It's a good angle to have on it. You mentioned your career, long career in Washington from when you came into the league to now. What do you think of in a moment like this of everything you've experienced and everything you've seen around women's soccer in the u.s i've seen so much change even still just being at the same club

um i know i that is unheard of in the league i think um now we have what three players that are still at the same club the whole um for the duration of the nwsl um and having players in the same market for that long is is crazy i'm hoping that it trends in that direction i mean even at the spirit now you've got ashley hatch aubrey blood so andy sullivan have been there now for a lengthy time. I hope that continues. But yeah, I am hopeful or maybe wishful for a day where we don't have trades that players are not expecting, that players can truly be seen as what they are, as human beings.

And I think that putting more effort into those human beings in terms of their development, and all of the things that sit adjacent to being a professional athlete, that I think our players haven't yet experienced. And that it's it does seem like it's trending in the right direction with visibility and, you know, experiences that they want to have, that they are, you know, not quasi-famous, that they're actually able to participate in what it means to be one of the top 1% in their field. I think it's about time that players in our league

are seen as the best in the world. Whether you are on the national team or not, there are a ton of really good, hardworking NWSL, through and through NWSL players that would be on a national team in any other country. And it just so happens they're American and it's tough to break in. But I'm hopeful that we have more and more visibility over the next couple of years and on.

But I think I've definitely seen throughout the last 11, 12 seasons or so that it's trending in the right direction. We've come a long way and we have a long ways to go. That brings me to my last question, which is for you. What's next after all of this as you, as an individual, what do you do next? What's sort of the plan? Yeah, that's a good question. A vacation, I hope of some sort. Yeah. So I actually, I moved down to the beach because I knew this, this year was going to be a little

bit hectic and couldn't be put on a timeline necessarily. There were so many outstanding things that, um, the PA was still working on. And in my role as president, I am wanting to see and fulfill my commitment, um, through my term, which will end at the, at the end of this year. But, um, yeah, yeah, I don't know. I don't know if I can share exactly what's next because I need some time. I do need some time to look inward

and figure out what's best for Tori. But just, yeah, extremely excited to figure that out. So I'll let you know. We look forward to it. You can come back on if you want to talk about it. So I'll let you know. We look forward to it. You can come back on if you want to talk about it. The door is always open. I'm sure that's exactly what you were hoping for in your vacation time was to come on here and talk with us. I hope you feel the adulation you're getting from around the world because I think we are seeing all of it.

It is a really special moment. So congratulations. And thank you for taking the time to join us. Thanks, David. Thanks for all the support. Really appreciate it. Thank you once again to Tori for taking the time. Fascinating stuff in there. Incredible just to hear the process of working with everyone across the league, people from all over the world for this one goal and to try and make everyone's life

better. But there's give and take in a negotiation. There's give and take in a process that affects so many people. And I think we are very excited to see the details of this as it comes out. But you could hear from Tori there how proud she is of the work they've done and the belief in what they've done and what they've been able to build going forward. And as I said, in the open, it is going to affect the competitive side of things. It's going to affect the sporting side of things.

We're going to have a sporting director on next week to talk about that a little bit with us, how they are seeing the future for their clubs and their rosters and how they're going to try and use these things to their advantage and what they are sort of spying out of this deal and how it's going to affect their jobs and their competitive nature over the course of time as this deal comes into play. But I also want to now jump into the legal side of things because this is a legal document. This is a work, a collectively bargained work negotiation. That is not an expert space of mine. So I want to bring someone on who knew a little bit more

than I did to be able to add into this conversation as well. So let's go now to an interview with Susie Cirilli. Let's go to an expert and let's go to, I think, someone who will have an interesting point of view on this and maybe add to a little bit of how we can all understand this. Susie Cirilli, partner on Elanoff, Grossman and Scholl. You are an expert in labor and employment group specializing in sports. You serve as an external general counsel to companies in the space as well as advising agents and coaches. So, Susie, it feels like it's probably a pretty big week for you. Yeah, it's exciting.

We are all excited. The fans are excited. Everyone seems to be very excited. For someone who's in this space, who lives with things like this happening, give us an idea of how big this is and how we should be reacting to it. Yeah, I mean, it's a big deal. Anytime workers, you know, the conditions of a worker changes, whether it's an athlete or a grocery store worker, it's exciting, right? Or it impacts an employee's life, money in the pocket, benefits.

But with that being said, should we be surprised by this? No. Across industries, whenever there's high growth in an industry like women's sport or specifically the nwsl right you you read every almost every day about the increased valuation sales of teams the 240 you can correct me 240 million dollar broadcast deal that they got um it makes sense that the league is getting ahead of it and establishing economic certainty and really setting its overhead now as this growth will probably just continue. I was talking to my colleague, Steve Novolis, who does labor law all day, every day. And so for the

non-lawyers out there, employment law, it's non-union work. And labor law, when we say labor law, which we'll say a lot in this conversation, it's union work, right? The collective bargaining agreement, negotiating these types of agreements is labor law. So my colleague Steve, we were chatting about this, and he was not shocked at all that the NWSL engaged the unions early on. How many years did they have left, David? I believe it was two more years on the deal that was signed in 2022, which was the first one ever. Okay, right. So how times have changed, right? Right. And so when I was chatting with Steve, he was he was just was not surprised. And I was like, tell me more about this. I think they're getting the leagues being smart. I don't think we need to hate on the league they're being smart and getting ahead of it now before the market forces really drive up valuations even more beyond what we even know they

are today so while player conditions will improve um it's also the league being really smart uh yeah i think that was one of the question marks i had which is why now with the ability to have two more years and for the most part i think from the outside it feels like 80 of the sports cba negotiations you see uh they go through there they either have to have extensions or we're on the verge of strike. So to see it happen early, and for you to make it make sense a little bit more there is very helpful. We don't know all the language yet, even though the CBA has technically already gone into effect because it's being back loaded from July 30. But from what we've seen come out, there are a few notable things that I want to ask

you about to sort of understand it from your point of view. The big one is the raise in salary. So the raise in the salary cap and the raise in the minimum salaries for every player starting next year and then going all the way through 2030, slowly rising every single year. What do you make of this? And how can we sort of understand, besides just, yay, more money for players, how it affects everything and how it comes about? Well, I guess I'd like to talk about the minimum salaries. So the minimum salary for 2024 under the old agreement was $37,856, which is like, I haven't written down, I'm not going to pretend

that I did the math in my head, $728 a week, right? Why that matters is in July of this year, the Fair Labor Standards Act was amended by the Department of Labor that raised the minimum salary threshold for exempt employees. So real quick, I know this is a break from football. This is law right now. This is what you're here for. An exempt employee is one that is owed overtime, right? Now, you and I chatted before, and just because someone is paid salary does not exclude them from overtime if they're not exempt, right? So assuming, if we want to assume these players are exempt, which they're not, but let's assume they are exempt, meaning they're not owed overtime for extra work they do or they,

I don't know, whatever the week gets them beyond 40 hours, you want to get the salary up, if you want to make an argument that they're exempt, you want to get it above the threshold. So the Fair Labor Standards Act, as of July 1st, 2024, raised the minimum salary to $43,888. So I understand that the new salary for next year will be minimum be 48.5, I believe. I'm not sure that we don't have the agreement. This minimum salary next year under the Fair Labor Standards Act increases again to 58,656. So that, let's just look at 2025. Next year, the minimum salary will be 48.5. That is below the Fair Labor Standards Act minimum threshold for exempt employees. So these players are owed overtime. Now, if a club or a league wants to make the argument that these players are exempt from overtime, meaning they're not going to get time and a half for hours over 40 worked, then you're going to want to make sure the fringe benefits get you up.

Because under the act, your wages can include housing and lodging. And you had some insight on that more than i do about some of the updates to that the belief is that in currently nwsl clubs provide housing that that will go away and there will be some level of stipend and help in that space but it won't be club housing that the players have to live in for that they will be able to control their own housing situation assisted by the clubs to then cover the gap a little bit. Okay, so if we're going to say that the players are exempt just for the purposes of this conversation and say their salary is 48.5, then clubs need to make sure that they're giving

at least 10 grand or whatever the difference is between the minimum threshold and the 48.5 in housing or a car or something like that. Um, but I'd like to kind of nerd out for a second on this exempt issue because, um, there was a case with major league baseball where, um, it was in the Northern district of California and it settled in 2023, I think, or 2022, um, no 23 last summer for $185 million. And the thing was earlier March of 22, the Northern district of California, a judge found that major league baseball, the league is a joint employer with the minor league clubs. So these minor league baseball players who get paid nothing were an employee of the league. Now, this case was brought, don't quote me, David, you might have to do a little fact check.

It might be 2011, 2010, 2012. But in 2016, Congress proposed legislation called Save America's Pastime Act. What that is, it amends the Fair Labor Standards Act to say that minor league baseball players are exempt from overtime. This was passed in 2018. So why am I saying with certainty that all other athletes are not exempt? Because unless it's in the statute and they made a carve out for baseball players, it doesn't say soccer players, doesn't say softball players, doesn't say basketball players either. There's an argument to be made that these athletes are owed overtime. So I think that if I'm a club, regardless of the CBA, I would be tracking time and i would be raising the salary to make it the minimum threshold for the fair labor standards act thank you for letting me go off

on that no it's great i actually have more questions to understand from the outside if it if a team flies to california to play a soccer game and then flies back is the entire time you have left home then play the game be in be in the hotel, come back, count as work? So that travel time, like to and from, like that's like a fact specific analysis that I don't feel comfortable doing right on this podcast. And it's disclaimer, not legal. No one should rely on this like legal counseling or advice. But sure, like donning and doffing, which is, I guess, a legal phrase for putting on your uniform, whether you're like suiting up to go into the oil refinery or suiting up to go on the pitch. We're all employees doing a physical job, not not us, but the better athletes. I don't

know you, but they're better than me. They are much better than me um as well and you mentioned so then the the other things that can bump something up um the housing we talked about there is some reports and again we don't know the full language of this uh fertility treatments that will be possible through things like this you obviously of course as an athlete get fed to an extent by your club and you have medical professionals around you. Does that all count as things outside of salary? Or is that things the clubs have to do to be competitive? And that's not the way that works. You know, Dave, that's such a good question, because there's there's wages and compensation

and then there's benefits. So medical benefits and and that, by the way, the fertility coverage that you see even clubs doing with i forget the name like um louisville i think has been pretty aggressive about it yeah and i think gotham also provides um this care for like freezing eggs and and all of that and um that that's a benefit but stuff like you get a car stipend 500 500 bucks a month towards a car, that could be deemed a wage. You get 2,500 bucks a month for rent, that could be deemed a wage. So without sounding, I mean, the CBA is awesome.

It's great. But there are issues within it, or ancillary issues that I guess are actually more integrated that should be assessed by the club and arguably the league. Let's talk about the other big notable piece that's come out of this, which is the elimination of the draft. For soccer fans around the world, they're like, duh, of course. And for American sports fans and Canadian sports fans, it is like, how do you exist? What happens now? So talk to me from your point of view about when you hear this happening, how it makes sense and sort of what this what we should take from this. Well, again, I'm just a lawyer. I'm not the soccer buff here. But I in looking at the qualifications to get into the draft, it says that it's on my other screen, right? You have to be a citizen or a permanent residence of

the United States or a permanent or a foreign national who is currently or was enrolled at a university in the United States during the academic year. Look, I don't know if that's I think it's arguably something that's worth being explored in that you can't discriminate against someone based on national origin or citizenship status, whether that be a visa, including what visa you have. So I think in the effort to stay competitive internationally, but again, that's outside of my, it's above my pay grade to talk football strategy, but to stay, to minimize risk for litigation, I would eliminate that requirement. And it sounds like eliminating the draft makes sense. But you had a good point when we talked earlier, right? It's not the only avenue to get in to the league, but it's one. And imagine if any, like, forget soccer. Imagine if an

employer said, in order for you to enter into this lottery, say you're a union hall, right? Or a tradesman or a tradesperson, right? You have to be a resident, a citizen of the United States, you have to be, you know, I don't know many employers that can do that. Right. And one of the things we've heard, and I talked about earlier in the show is the need to stay competitive with other leagues around the world, which don't require that. So in having that ability, it seems to make sense. Big picture, when something like this is happening from someone in your field or your point of view, what are you going to go in and zero in on when the language fully does come out? Like, what are the keys to something like this to know how it went and how it can affect things going forward i think if i'm talking

about like my practice it would be you know i imagine agents and players you know players that are negotiating their own contract i mean this this just because it's it's it's business-wise advantageous for the league doesn't make it a bad move or insidious or, you know, move on the league's part because the free agency is huge for these employees, these players. So I imagine it might be kind of get really, really fun with the agents and contracts. And I love contracts and I love soccer or football. And so I think it's going to be really fun. And what I will always hone in on even before the CBA is making sure that clubs are doing the right thing and checking in with their local employment laws. Because at the end of the day, it's a physical job. And when you are employing individuals who carry children, it requires more attention.

Or not more attention, but it requires a different type of attention and expertise. I'm excited. I'm very excited as well. I'm excited to have you on. Let me close you out with this. This is done in theory. Does that mean all of this is done and we're on to new things? Like what's next?

If we're thinking from your point of view from a legal point of view that's working in sports to whether it's to progress the game or change things even more what comes next well i think there's two things that and we kind of we were beat bob i was going to say well not bsing we were talking before um i i work with coaches and i'm interested to see if any of the coaches organize. You have the League Managers Association in the UK and you don't have it here in the US. I think coaches are and even referees are. Sorry, something popped up. Coaches and referees.

I believe there are no unions. They're unprotected. So it's interesting, right, a it's just like players yeah coaches come in from all over um but who their employers are the clubs um so i think maybe the organization of coaches could be something to think about um and then also this new league the usl um there's no union yet or right now it's a different you, you know, you've experienced with the MLS. It's a different model. It's not the single entity. So these players are employees of the club.

Right. So just because they're not unionized yet, and my colleague Steve Nivolis will tell you, it doesn't mean that these clubs shouldn't be thinking about players' rights under labor laws. So this is going to be really fun. As an employment lawyer and a soccer fan, this is going to be really fun as an employment lawyer and a soccer fan this is like a dream come true it is a big time it's a big moment and i i wanted

to have you on to make sure that i was right about that and i think a lot of fans are right about that that this felt like a big deal but we don't have all the details yet in a lot of different directions but in general it feels like we got at least that part correct yeah and listen for what it's worth like from what we saw with the press release right like there's going to be mental health professionals required to be on team like just the medical staff that's going to be required for these clubs like look that's stuff that is important and like yeah a league can get ahead of the market and try to lock in and economic certainty and all that but leagues don't have to do what they're doing. So I think altogether, everyone's trying their best.

Susie Cirilli, thank you so much for taking the time to join us. Next time I have a legal question, we're going to have to have you on as well to make sure that I'm able to figure out actually what's happening. But I appreciate you taking the time. Thank you so much. Thank you. I'll see you. Thank you so much once again to Susie. Thank you, of course, to Tori for taking the time to chat with us. And thank you to all of you out there for listening. I hope you enjoyed it. I hope you

learned a little something about this landmark deal and about what's going on in NWSL. If you have any questions that you want us to dig into get into our discord get into our subscribe to our patreon to get into our discord so that you can ask questions and then i can go out and research them for you and bring in more experts and talk to them and get you the answers behind the scenes going forward we've still got a ton more to cover the nwsl season is not even close to over so we'll have our weekend recap show coming up at the end of this weekend. We will have Jordan Angeli back on with us next week, as well to talk all things NWSL. Thank you to all of you for listening, and we'll talk to you again very, very soon. you