SoccerWise - Open Mic | Mary Harvey on Building the Women’s Game

Episode Date: September 11, 2026

Mary Harvey has seen the women’s game from almost every angle in her career, as a USWNT goalkeeper to FIFA leader and WPS executive. Today, she leads the Center for Sport and Human Rights, and she joins Open Mic to talk about the evolution of women’s soccer, the lessons of its past and where the game goes next. 0:00 Intro1:26 The 1991 World Cup4:57 Harvey’s Journey to the USWNT7:58 How 1991 Changed Women’s Soccer11:53 Inside the 1996 USWNT16:25 From Player to FIFA Leader24:11 How World Cups Drive Development28:26 What Happened to WPS?35:12 The Future of the Women’s Game41:51 The Responsibility of Each USWNT Generation44:46 Sport, Human Rights & the 2026 World Cup57:30 Harvey’s Favorite Sporting EventsFor the sharpest coverage of American soccer, we’ve got you covered:https://linktr.ee/soccerwisehq

Welcome back, everybody, to Open Mic, our Friday show in which we get to have the big conversations around soccer that we want to have. Secret behind television, I'm actually away right now. I'm in South America on vacation, but we still have an incredible show coming up for you because I was lucky enough to sit down with one of the legends of the game in Mary Harvey. She was a longtime goalkeeper for the U.S. women's national team. she's won gold medals. She's won World Cups. And then she has gone and maybe done even more in her professional career after retiring.

She worked at FIFA. She was the first American and woman hired to run her own department out of FIFA. She worked in development spending millions, if not billions of dollars, on growing the game globally. And now she's in charge of a nonprofit that uses the game of soccer

as well as other sports to focus on how to help people around the world and connect people. So it was an honor to sit down and chat with her, could have done it for two hours, but didn't want to waste too much of her time, but really fascinating conversations around her background, the work she did, helping run both a professional women's soccer league in the U.S., working at FIFA, working around the game, and of course, playing at the highest level. So enjoy the interview. And let's get to Mary Harvey right now. Well, we are so excited to dig in here with Mary Harvey, talked about her credentials, about everything she's accomplished.

So we're going to try and cover all of it here in as much time as we have. But Mary, thanks for taking the time to be here. I'm happy to be on. Thanks so much. I know you were trying to stay under the radar. So I appreciate you coming above to hang out with me. Let's start at the beginning. Let's start with your playing career.

And, you know, playing in what became the first world championships, which became the World Cup. And just curious what you remember about those tournaments and those experiences. Oh, God. It was this sort of surreal, I would say surreal experience. If you can imagine, it's hard to imagine this today. But if you can imagine that you're going in, there had never been a World Cup. Sorry, there's never been an official FIFA recognized world, right?

I mean, that's called the World Cup. There's been a test event in Taiwan, I think, or China before. Then, of course, 1971, you know, that's come to light. But back in this time, 1991, there was just the European championships. There wasn't the Olympic Games. There wasn't any of this. And so we go to play a tournament. We get on a plane.

We fly to China. We're sort of out of the media spotlight completely. Well, almost completely. And we go and play this tournament and we win the tournament. And we come back and it's sort of like, at least in the States, it kind of never happened. And last year, it was at the Hall of Fame. sort of ceremony. And I said, imagine what it would be like as a player to make a World Cup team,

play in a World Cup, win a World Cup, and nobody really knowing about it. And that's kind of what it felt like. It was an exciting three weeks or whatever it was. We were there. It was amazing. Obviously, we're a bunch of super competitive, ambitious women. So we want to go out and win the whole thing. But the repercussions of that were just, you know, we came back and it was sort of like, did that just really happen?

But the crowds at the tournament were huge. So was there a thought for you of like, I should leave the U.S. and go somewhere else? Like this matters somewhere, but maybe not here? Well, certainly if you're of, let's talk about the crowds. There are two things going on there that you just said. One is crowds, yes, it was well attended. The Chinese did a terrific job. as hosts getting full stadiums, which was fantastic. But coming back, right, it was really about if you're out of the university system and you're a U.S. player, how do you put yourself in a competitive environment where you can continue to play at that level, right? The international level. And for me, I had just by circumstance been sent overseas for work. And so I was in that environment. I was working in Germany from 89 until 92.

But then what do you do after that? And so I end up going to Sweden. Some other players went to Sweden to play just to get game fit. But then the 95 women's World Cup happens. And until the semis in the final, attendance is not really great. 5,000 people at games. It was very different from China. Got it.

So let's take a step before that, which is, so there's no women's soccer at the Olympics, there's no World Cup, there's not really a national team. Why did you start playing soccer? And when you started playing, at what point did you think playing for a national team was something that was going to happen or something in your mind? Oh, well, so starting playing, I grew up in Northern California, the San Francisco Bay Area. and they're you know I started playing an AYSO and a lot of people do right and I love AYSO. I love many things about AYSO. And it was just I went to a small school, private school and I wanted to meet kids outside of my small classes. And so they had a local girls league. So it wasn't even mixed. It was, you know, the girls league. And so at the age of 12, I think I start playing in AYS.

and eventually, you know, I'm playing in school, you know, in high school, and then I'm playing club. And then, like, I was playing on the field and not very good, I might add. Very, very sort of average. My foot skills have never been something that's been what I've been exceptional for. And my teammates will giggle and laugh and say, yeah, that's right. But again, I didn't have to play with my feedback then, even though it was a good idea. But when I was switched positions into and trained with a coach that understood, you know, the position how to train goalkeepers, I kind of took to it instantly. It was like a fog just cleared and everything became very, very sharp and understandable.

So that happened when I was 16, which is super late now. So I was very much a late bloomer, and that leads into playing in college. I go to the University of California, Berkeley, play with that team. I had a chance to start as a freshman and play basically my whole career there, which was an amazing opportunity. But back then, you know, the women's national team, in its current form, didn't really start playing until 85, right? So I'm in the middle of university, and it's a small group of people, right?

The country's a big place. You maybe get identified. brought in. Maybe you don't. I wasn't identified and didn't get brought in. So all of that happened later. For me, 1989 is when I get called in finally, and I'm out of college and I'm working and playing in Germany. But in Germany, you know, they'd won, they'd had the European championships, right? So Norway, Sweden, Germany, they're all playing in a European championship, I think, started in 1982 or 1981. So I'm playing against players that have been in a, in that sort of environment.

So it's terrific for me. So the European Championship, then you have this world championship tournament. And what I read, and you can correct me here, is that the success of 91 was a big part of what convinced whether it was Atlanta or the IOC to include women's soccer in the 96 Olympics, which goes on to be a huge success. What do you remember about the process of realizing it would be an Olympic sport and then the experience of the 96 Olympics and the PAC stadiums across the southeast of the U.S.? Well, that's a really good question. And I don't know the answer to that. I can do more accurately track 96 to 99. But from 91, 95 to 96, there are some people that you should ask. I think as the host country, you have some. some influence.

Right. Maybe there was a- apply for sports. Yeah. Yeah. So that certainly helped that we were hosting. And that, the thing though that fascinates me about this is you hear about 99 a lot. Obviously, it's a seminal moment.

It's a huge sports moment. But, you know, one of the big things that's talked about is how involved the crowds were and how big it was and how popular it was. But you look back at the 96 Olympics and there was 65,000 people at the semi-finals. There was 55,000 in Florida for the group stage. And then in the final, which was at UGA in Athens, Georgia, it was, you gave me this exactly, 76,481 people. I don't think if you told the average soccer fan or sports fan that that happened that people would really remember that. Maybe it's overshadowed by 99, but that, you know, even now that's a huge deal to have that type of crowd at a soccer game. Well, and it was a world record.

So it was a world record at the time for a women's only sporting events. We're not a curtain raiser. This is the final. Obviously, it helps that the home country is in the final. Host country is in the final. But it was a world record. It was a seismic moment in women's sports. Now, whether or not it was known.

But at the time, I mean, it was also Carl Lewis was having the final event of his entire Olympic career that night. I think it was a triple jump. So we weren't necessarily part of the broadcast calendar that was anticipated. And yet this incredible thing is happening 90 minutes up the road in Athens. Right. And people start to get word of it. And then, you know, we're down on the field after the gold medal ceremony.

And, you know, Mia has a headset on. And Bob Costas wants to talk to her about this because this thing is, happened. It's breaking news and it hadn't been part of the original coverage. So, yeah. As you walked out of that Olympics, did you think 99 was possible the way it ended up happening? I don't think that occurred to me. I mean, we're wrapped up in the moment. But as I've heard, the organizers who helped with 1996, FIFA was there, right? Because the Olympic tournament is a FIFA tournament at the Olympic Games, but FIFA runs it. I don't know if the decision had already been made to give the 99 Women's World Cup

to the United States. I just don't know. Marla Messing would definitely know that. But certainly FIFA seeing crowd numbers like that, when you're asking and trying to convince them to not make it a small regional event but make it a national footprint, big stadium, NFL stadium kind of event, it obviously helps make the case. And so that lays the groundwork and enables 99 to happen because you've made that decision, national footprint, big stadiums.

You mentioned Mia Hammond name many people will know. What was that team like in 96? What was the group like that, you know, as you mentioned, not everyone had a place to play all the time. People are working other jobs, yourself included, but are elite high-level athletes and focused on this one thing. What was the group like around that competition? Well, U.S. soccer, so 94, we're hosting the World Cup, the men's World Cup.

And U.S. soccer asks everyone to quit whatever they're doing and move to Florida. And so January, 1995, we're all showing up and training together and living together in central Florida to prepare for the 95 women's world. Cup or we're defending. And then that happens. And then we reconvene in January of 96. We're living together, training together, to prepare for 96. So we were in residency, essentially, living together and playing together and training together and playing a bunch of international friendlies to prepare for the Olympic Games. We've heard those stories for the 94 men's team. It seems like that's an intense experience to be around these people all the time and be playing as a team all

the time, both in national breaks and when you would in theory be with your club. What was like the social dynamics like? I mean, it was terrific. I certainly, you know, loved it, enjoyed it. And there was an understanding that being hard on each other in practice and not letting up, being hard isn't, doesn't mean socially or whatever. It just means you're playing hard every single day, twice a day sometimes, you're playing hard because you're going to make your teammates better, right? How do you simulate, you don't have a professional league or a Premier League. How do you create a competitive environment that gets you ready for a World Cup if you don't

have all those things, which is what the men in 94 were. We're also having to do. So we understood that what we needed to do was every single day. day put everything you can into it. And also, you know, from 95 to 96, there was a grudge match to be had because we just lost in the semifinals to Norway. Yeah. Team, that team does not take Walda losing.

And so every single day, you know, there's a picture of the Norwegian celebrating that win in 95 and it's on the locker room door. Every time we go out to practice, we go by it. Sometimes people will punch it, right? And so you bring that sort of competitiveness into it when you're training and playing. But there's silliness and friendships and things like that as well. But there was an understanding that this is about performance and this is about being as good as we can be. And that means that we can't let up on each other when we're training or playing.

One of the unique parts about this team, I assume for you, was the head coach was a goal. and Tony DeChicchio and what was it like to have? There are very few head coaches who go on from the goalkeeping ranks, I feel like. What's it like having someone who's an expert in your field? And I know you had worked with as a goalkeeper coach being the head coach of the whole team. Well, I mean, Tony's an exceptional human being. And I miss him and everything he brought. It meant he had a lot of work because, you know, we, the team would train it

10 and we'd be out there in nine. So we get an hour in before the, with Tony. So Tony'd be out there with us for an hour before the team trains at 10. So we're going three hours. The teams are whatever, two and a half hours. And the team's doing 90 minutes or two hours. So it's a lot of work on his side, but also on our side. But you don't have a disconnect between what the goalkeeping coach thinks and what's

the national team coaches. So, you know, it was great. And he's just, what a phenomenal human being. Loved his family. Just great human being. Tremendous amount of integrity. Just loved playing for Tony. You mentioned you went to Germany for your career,

not specifically for soccer. And then you end up in this camp. And then after the Olympics, You go back into your professional career. You had an MBA. You had worked in management consulting. And you eventually fuse that with soccer. Was that an idea that you had of, okay, how can I take my skills off the field and bring it into my passion?

Or did it just happen? No, I mean, so management consulting before I take a two-year break to be a full-time player with the U.S. women. Then afterwards, like you said, there's a school and then I go back to work. this time with Deloitte instead of Accenture. And I'm there for three and a half years or something. And there's a hole inside of me. And the whole is social purpose. And so it's this period of time where I sort of realize that I'm a nonprofit executive.

Working in a for-profit industry. And some people can moonlight and serve on boards and get that fix in other ways. but it was so strong in me. And I've always sort of had that sense of social purpose. And you go through a two-year experience, intense experience like that, with a national team where it was not only about winning and excellence, but it was about how do we make things better for the next generation. And you're trying to inspire people, right?

And everybody wants and loves inspiration. and look at what the 99 team did, right? What incredible inspiration. So having been a part of that from the, you know, I don't say the origin story, but pretty close to the origins of the team. And being a part of that culture, it was hard for me to turn that off. And so I was just feeling like, what am I doing with my life in a for-profit sort of sector?

when really I have this tremendous need to drive social purpose. So then I sort of transitioned into, and then I was identified in a search for a senior role at FIFA. And that's when I sort of jump over. You ended up being hired in 2003 as the director of development. So you were the first woman hired at a role like that at FIFA. You were the first American as well. This is the global governing body of soccer, obviously.

We know it now very well. But at the time, there was no American presence there. Did you- Well, there was. There were a few people. Amber Steele, who's now Coca-Cola, what had a senior level role there at FIFA Marketing and Television. And Jim Brown, who was hired the week after me, also an American, right?

But at the time that I was hired, I was a full director, right? And so those are the distinctions. But there were a couple of Americans there, but not many. And what was it like when you walked through the doors? What was it like first meeting people talking to people and people, whether they respected you or not? And did you feel like you had to put your credentials sort of on the table consistently? Well, that never, you never make friends that way. You know?

I would, you know, here's how I approached it. What I walked into was a situation where I was comfortable slash used to working with mostly men. Even though I'd been with the national team, all women, right? But in my career, I was in an industry that still was male dominated. And certainly client work worked with a lot of men. So me working with a lot of men wasn't a big adjustment. On the other side, however, it was a big adjustment for them. I was a little bit different packaging.

And here I come in off the U.S. Women's National Team for eight years with an MBA, with eight years in, you know, for-profit industries. And I have an educational and a work experience credential that's suitable for the job. and I also have a playing credential in the sport we're governing that's difficult to impeach. Yeah. Right? So.

A couple of World Cups, a gold medal. Well, one World Cup. Clayton two, but one. And you don't want to beat people over the head with it, right? Because that's, again, not going to make you popular. But it was just, they kind of didn't know how to react to me. They sort of want to say, well, you're this way. but you're an American, but you won the World Cup.

But you're a player, but you have eight years in, right? And there wasn't at the time a male equivalent of me, I would say, because a lot of players, because they're big time players, they go to the World Cup, whatever, they're professionals. That was never something that, so we just got on with it. And I'm not unique, right? Lisa Klavena, same thing. Or McAllister, she goes into academia.

You have players that just, we had to go do that. But yeah, there was a breaking in period, and I felt like a goldfish in a goldfish bowl. And what I kept reminding myself is they're making a bigger adjustment than I am because this is very new for them. And it's not so new for me. What do you make of the work you did there? What do you make of the experience of being inside of FIFA? So a lot of question, maybe. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot.

It was fascinating and wonderful and at times heartbreaking, I would say. You know, you're sort of painfully reminded of your gender on a daily basis. And I wouldn't say it was microaggressions. They were, but I don't think they realized they were. But just what that meant. And that put me in a goldfish bowl, right? And if you think about the role that I had at FIFA, right, it's one thing if I'm running finance or I'm running human resources or I'm running legal, I'm running the part of, I'm in charge of the part of FIFA that invests in the development of the game itself. So that's the assistance to the member associations to develop the sport.

that's infrastructure development at the time, building pitches and training centers and things like this. It's all refereeing education. It's coaching education. It's sports medicine. It's women's football. It's beach soccer. It's futsal.

It's all of its different, you know, manifestations that the game comes in. That was the part that I was leading. And it wasn't just for the women. It was all of it. It was the men. And a lot of people think, oh, you ran, did the women at FIFA? No, I actually had the whole thing. And that, I think, I'm dealing with a lot of senior head coaches on the men's side.

And there's just a lot of bias around women. And so being in that position back then, big adjustment for people. I want to talk about the development of the women's game, though, because the World Cup has been a driver of that. you know and maybe for good or bad i don't know the answer to that what do you make of as we head towards a 2027 women's world cup where the women's game stands in the echelon of what FIFA sort of invests in and focuses on and the improvements that have or haven't been made connecting it to the previous to the question you just asked me which is you know what did you try to do on the

women's side what was so rewarding was that i don't know I'll give refereeing as an example. You would try to do something different or substantial on the men's side with refereeing and immediately sort of UEFA and con the bowl sort of what are you doing? Like, wait a minute. We have to negotiate this. We have to talk about it. Oh, you're talking about the women.

Oh, you can do what you want. Like you want to put a million dollars into developing women because there's a 100% female only refereeing policy. Fine. We don't care. do what you want. So I drove a truck through that window of opportunity, right? So when it came to the women's side, I could do things that I couldn't do on the men's side. So, and when they were pushing for expanding the size of the under 17 and the under 20 men's competitions, you know, I shamelessly guilted them into, well, then you need to do the same on the women's side. You need to

establish an under 17 and you need to move the under 19s to under 20s. You need to have a field that's not a small one and you do these things. So it was those moments of those windows of opportunity that open up where I was in a position to then try to push through things that back then are bearing fruit now. Right? So having an under 17 so that players that are playing in the senior women's teams now, started when they were 15, 16

going through this process. And there's investment at that level. So we're seeing the fruits of some things that I was able to do back then that are hopefully bearing fruit now. In terms of investing and women's football

at a place like FIFA, when I was there, now I can't speak about what it's like now. I will speak about what it was like when I was there. The organization really was culturally built around serving the biggest cash cow in sports, which was the men's World Cup. And so every single part of the organization was really focused on that. So it's a difficult environment to incubate something that's high potential, high growth. At the time, beach soccer maybe fits into that, but women's football certainly, inside something that's really

built to serve that event. So I was advocating for things like I think you should have an incubator and you put women's football into it, which is what dot coms were doing back in the early aughts and late 90s of basically incubating high growth, high potential areas where you throw resources at it and you can break rules where you could do things differently so that it gives it that opportunity to really launch in a big way. And I didn't win that argument. And then I left FIFA soon after. But I would have liked to have seen that sort of dedication and focus on how can we make

this exciting high growth opportunity that's 50% of the population of the planet, right? Right. Something very exciting and high growth. So I would have liked to have seen that. Well, we're seeing growth anyways, but maybe it's taking a little bit longer. And as you get older, like, you start to lose patience. So you said you left, and you left for a big role. You left to become the chief operating officer at the time the WPS, which was the professional soccer league that launched four women in the U.S.

from 2008 to 2010. No, I think it's 2011, 2012. I was there until 2010. Got it. Right. And then it becomes NWSL slightly after in a different form. What was the belief in what that could be? And what did the landscape of a professional league look like back then from the operating point of view? Well, at the time, I mean, the WUSA had seen.

ceased, what, in 2003, I think, right before the Women's World Cup. So it's now been five years without a leak. And so it took that long, and Tanya Antenucci, the commissioner, was out working on the business plan to get it up and running, rounding up the investors. And they're looking at, okay, single entity structure versus team owned and, you know, what's the corporate structure look like, trying to incorporate learnings from WSA, all it. And you get all that done. You line up all the investors. And then October 20, 2008 happens. Yeah. Right. A massive financial collapse. Right. And you're trying to attract new money. Right.

You're not, and right now, the entire industry is saying we're not doing any new deals. And it's hard. It's really hard. And it, of course, takes a long time to recover. So I was in, charge of, you know, standing up the operations and also, you know, to a level where it was classified as a Division I league at U.S. soccer, which meant it had to meet certain standards, had a certain footprint, had to have a certain operating budget, had to have certain minimum standards. And what the tension was is, is when the economy just, you're not seeing the revenue come in, right? And this is a hard cell to begin with, but then you're doing it in a generational economic, you know, difficulty that you're having. Trying to turn the corner on that,

and it's just not happening, you can only cut so much before you're cutting into muscle. And, you know, and you're cutting into minimum operating standards and you're cutting into the cost structure in ways that, you know, you're cutting into the cost structure in ways that, in the name of viability that gets into, you know, some really difficult areas. And at some level, you just can't recover from that. And I think, you know, I wasn't there when everything sort of got shut down. But it was just a really difficult period where, you know, you just can't cut your way to profitability, given the gap between what's coming in and what's going out.

And you also had a different owner group, right? The valuations and the ownership, you know, how patient are owners going to be if they're going to bleed? Now, they're billionaires. They can bleed for a long time and they choose to. If they're sent to millionaires or less, you know, their tolerance for being patient is going to look different. And so, you know, when the NWSL started, a couple of things.

One is, is you had U.S. soccer now invested. And secondly, I'm going to be a little bit critical of U.S. soccer now. They're sitting on what the regulations are for Division I League, and now they're operating the league. So if they're going to turn a blind eye to certain elements of the standards. Yeah, we need to get this thing by. stadium sizes, yeah. I didn't have that, right? I had like, what do you meet standards?

I'm like, well, we're trying, but it's hard, man. So it was a little easier for them in those first early years until things really took off, you know, to sort of meet their own standards if they were operating it. What would you have said to someone when you left about, okay, we're going to go start a new league, like, what is the things we need to know? Like, what were the learnings that you walked away with besides not starting during a financial crisis that you would have said, here are some of the key tenants that people should be aware of to build, you know, a successful leak? So my comments are going to be through the lens of my sphere of influence because I didn't see so much on the marketing on the sales side on the revenue side. Just wasn't. I wasn't in those conversations. I would say that there was a dangerous undercurrent towards the end, I think, when I mentioned cutting to a permissiveness in the name of the league being viable that can flip from being practical to being, I don't say dangerous, but shaky ground.

So, and I think the things that, that sort of culture of, we have to do this to keep the league, have the league survive. When it comes to things like sexual abuse, sexual harassment, assault, right, all these things that then become in 2021, 22, big issues. The culture for that, right, got early years of the NW.A. maybe the last part of WPS, it's about sort of what are we willing to overlook in the name of this league needs to be viable. And I'm not pointing fingers at anybody, but I'm just saying it's an undercurrent. Yeah. That then and now, and at the time at WPS, we didn't have a players union.

Right. So as owners are saying we want to cut, we want to push back, who's really pushing? back. Right. There's not two sides to the conversation. There aren't. And the other side is me as the chief operating officer saying we shouldn't cut these things. But that's a terrible position for me to be in because who do I work for? Right. I mean, that's just, it wasn't healthy. And now you have something that's very different. Yeah. And in all the positive ways. There is a lot of conversation around what fixes the game and what should be done. Is there any specific things or fixes that you would do in the women's global game

that you think could help the progress maybe jump quicker? So one of the things that we're hearing a lot about is investment, right? And how do you make, and when I was at FIFA, you think about what can you do from a policy standpoint that drives investment at the national, at the country level, to invest in the sport for women and girls. So coaches, referees, players, youth systems, all of it. And one of the reasons given always for lack of investment is, well, there isn't the return on it. Right? We're not seeing that. And it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you don't invest, you don't get the return. Now, right? And this was, you know, this argument's been made, you know, as part of the equal

pay lawsuit and some other things. So how do you drive investment? And one of the reasons why having youth tournaments was so important in establishing youth women's tournaments at FIFA was if you have an event and you want to compete in it, you have to do something to prepare. So it's at some levels driving investment. Now, here's a big driver. Equalized prize money

for the World Cup. People go, whoa, like that's not possible. Okay, let's look at this. Let's say you're China or you're Malawi or your Zambia. And even in a 48-team World Cup, you're unlikely you'll qualify. If you do qualify, you're going home after three games.

Maybe. Right? Just what's needed to compete at that level, given the gap on the men's side's huge. But if the prize money is equal and you're Malawi and you're playing in the semifinals of Afcon right now, and you've already qualified for the Women's a World Cup next year. And if I'm at that federation and I'm saying, okay, what's my return on investment look like if I invest X and the return is Y? If you've equalized prize money and you have a team on the women's side that could go deep, not only in the group, but out of the group into the quarterfinals, round of 16, what have you. And the prize money is equal.

Now that becomes a very different return on investment. And so how do you influence investment on the women's side at federations if you equalize prize money, not only for players, but also what the federation gets? Then it becomes different. The math becomes different on investing in your men's team versus your women's team. There's still a major cultural barrier that has to be, right, because that would be a big adjustment that everyone would need to make or some more than others. but still, countries like that will qualify for the Women's World Cup or could qualify, and countries not only will qualify, but they could go deep that don't have that on the men's side, equal prize money now becomes very interesting and very important.

The research that we're getting that's come out of the World Cup is round of 16 for the 26 men's World Cup teams that got knocked out, received somewhere around 16 million. dollars per federation. And then that gets split amongst players in the federation. Quarterfinals was 20 million. Round of 32 was 12 million. The understanding is for the 2023 women's World Cup, it was roughly 2 million for a quarter final team.

So that's a $14 million gap in the resources that could be invested in the sport, in the infrastructure, and within those players on the women's side, as you were saying, if the prize money became equal. Well, it's just about what, where do you incentivizing. And, you know, this isn't something you flip a switch and do, but this has to be a goal, right? It has to be a goal with a time frame of achieving it. Once you achieve it, the externalities of that decision are, I think, are going to be massive because of that. It's going to drive investment in countries like the ones we're talking about

in the women's side that we haven't seen before, it's going to put, I think, now someone can prove me wrong on this, and this is just my view, but I think it could be a very, very powerful driver for investment in the game globally, particularly in countries that just aren't going to try as they might make it to the men's World Cup or out of the group.

Yeah, I mean, every country makes sports resource decisions, right? In Ethiopia, they're going to put money into the long-distance running team because that's what wins. In New Zealand, it's rugby, right? If these teams win, they become rock stars and then they get fandom, and then it becomes a point of pride for those nations that they are one of the great women's national teams on the planet.

So it makes a lot of sense, and it's really interesting. As you watch sort of from the outside, not really, because you are a main player in all of this, but what do you make of where NWSL stands now and maybe where the women's professional game, whether in the U.S. or globally stands? Well, I mean, I was just at the Women's Champions League Final a couple months ago in Oslo. I mean, it's amazing. I think Barcelona is playing in front of massive crowds.

It's, again, on that side of the Atlantic, on our side of the Atlantic, I mean, the numbers that Denver put up, their first game, the numbers that we're seeing at Gotham, the numbers were seeing, you know, it's amazing. It's incredible. It's fantastic. And with it, you see a lot more opportunities for women in front office positions. You're seeing, you know, women's national team alumni who are now in positions at clubs and a lot of professional

opportunity. We're seeing the broadcast booth. We're seeing them on the sidelines. We're seeing them in front office roles. And you also have an ownership profile that's really exciting, right? And I love the intentionality that's been built into things like owners, ownership groups, as well as the sponsors and the economic partners. Right. So it's exciting to see what the growth and obviously the multiples on what was being asked for in terms of valuations. It's fantastic. You talked about it.

earlier playing with the U.S. Women's National team and you mentioned some of the other alumni and what they went and did and what you went and did. I think about as you talked about being at Deloitte and what you were missing and what you sort of had with the U.S. Women's National team, it was

this driver for change for such a long time because you had to be. You had no choice. It was the reality but it was 25, 30 years where that national team was this driver for change. There's a conversation and it's more amongst fans than players of as the players now don't have to push for that change as much,

but they get to be the best players they can be. What is the responsibility of a U.S. women's national team player to talk about things that maybe aren't soccer related or to be that driver for change while also being the best athlete on the planet? Well, every generation has its raison d'être, right? They have their purpose. and they're going to define what that looks like for them. In my generation, I knew what that looked like. And in generations that followed,

and there's a wonderful video that U.S. soccer did about what the Crest means, what the U.S. Women's National Team Crest, you know, what that means. And it has been multi-generational, right? Every generation has moved the ball down the field. We could never have imagined, equal pay in my time. But because every generation picked up the mantle and moved it, you got to a point

where equal pay was something that was and litigated for seven years, something like this, $45 million, I mean, massive, and they win. So is the work over? Listen, there, prize money. I mean, prize money still isn't equal. Equality of investment. right in quality of investment and i'm not talking about necessarily the u.s soccer federation now i'm talking about you know other national teams right the global game

representation of women on the sidelines um in refereeing development in technical disciplines sports medicine there's lots and lots of room for advancement and growth and we're seeing exciting you know people come into that and say you know what that's a gap and that needs to get plugged. And you have investors like Michelle Kang saying, you know what, we need to spend more and invest more here because we're using science

and we're using knowledge that's built around an entirely different athlete, which is the male athlete. So a lot of exciting. And there's still a lot of room for this generation to maneuver in. Yeah, it's amazing. I mean, we're watching the Women's Afcon right now

while we're recording this, Malawi, making it to the final qualifying. for the World Cup. They created a professional league four years ago in that country. And Haley Carter's been on the show and talked about the potential that exists in Africa and the Caribbean. Yeah. Unbelievable person.

But she said like if everything is there, you just need to invest the resources and you see how quickly it turns around for the people who do try and make that attempt to put the right resources in the game, which is incredible to see. You said you're

at your core. You are executive of a nonprofit and you currently are the chief executive of a nonprofit. So tell us a little bit about the Center for Sport and Human Rights. So the Center for Sport and Human Rights was launched in 2018 by an incredible woman named Mary Robinson. So she's the former president of Ireland, former UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, and now chairs the elders, which is an organization founded by Nelson Mandela and then by Kofi Annan that are former heads of state. around the world and they are involved in key discussions in the world today, be it nuclear nonproliferation to environmental crisis to lots of things. But back then, Mary Robinson,

who's been a warrior for human rights and climate justice her whole life, started asking questions of sport and saying, when are you going to have accountability for human rights harms that are happening as the result of your activities and specifically your your big events. This is in the wake of, you know, 2014, you know, Brazil, 2016, Brazil, 2018, Russia, 22-8-Qatars, ports are coming out. So that's what starts the center, which is basically this multi-stakeholder group of all the different actors that make up sport. I mean, we think of sport, we think of, oh, well, that's professional leagues and sport

governing bodies. Well, it's also sponsors, broadcasters. It's governments. He can't put on a World Cup without the government paying for a lot of stuff and providing law enforcement and everything else. It's unions, right? So big, big trade unions that build stadiums or provide hospitality or security, what have you. It's UN agencies that have, you know, international standards like the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the ILO, you know, standards for work. And then you have civil society. So you have groups that are nonprofits who advocate for protection of people in a variety of different ways, be it from discrimination, LGBT, women, persons with disabilities, all of that. So what the center is, is we convene this ecosystem of all these different actors

and we look at what are the key risks that happen either when you're governing sport or when you're putting on one of these big events, these activities are largely the same every time you put on these events, or they look the same if you're governing sport. So there's not a lot of new things, although AI and some other things are disruptive, certainly in terms of looking at risk. But the risks are predictable, and they're preventable. And so what we do at the center is we work with all of these different groups, and we look at what are keys to helping sport bodies and host actors who are putting on these tournaments, be they governments or hosts organizing committees, what can we do to help them understand and prevent harms from happening?

They're predictable. When harm happens, what do you do? How do you make it right? How do you address it? How do you make it right? And then how do you continually learn from that in every single sporting event that happens gets better? And then on the sports governance side, it's about taking decisions as a sport body that have impact on people, be they players, referees, fans, what have you. How do you take those responsibly so that these decisions aren't causing harm to people as they're being implemented?

So that's what the center is set up to do. This is probably a loaded question, but the Olympics and the World Cup are my two favorite things that happen. I love the global connection of it. I love the big nature of it. I love the ability to land in Norway or meet an Ecuadorian and have a connection point with them for the rest of our lives because you get to watch their great athletes and all of that. I guess as you do this work, is there a way for all of this to work sustainably and correctly? Like, is there a world in which these events do happen and there isn't negative impact or is it just trying to limit the negative impact, I guess is what I'm asking. Mary Robinson describes yourself as a prisoner of hope and I share that with her.

I'm an optimist by wiring. So I want to say, yes, there is. But it involves some things to make that happen and involves humility to say, you know what? What didn't work that shouldn't be repeated? and owning that and fixing that, rather than saying we don't want to be criticized. The second thing, and also being willing to talk to people who represent people who have been affected, not in a positive way, by decisions that you've taken. So you have to be willing to stand there and be criticized and do something with that information

and engage repeatedly with those groups. so that and that involves being the willingness to do that and it also involves giving up some power right and control and sharing it with people who are don't have it and are harmed because of it and that's at the very basic levels of it that's what's involved and that's hard to do and the reality is is that happens as a result of calamity. You'd like to say it happens organically, but it happens when there's something existential. That's happening.

And in the NWSL, a lot of things changed because of what happened there. In FIFA 2015, a lot of, there was a window for reform and including bringing in human rights criteria. That happened. Now we're in the middle of something that we're not sure where it's going, right?

But there may also be an opportunity for further change to happen. And when that happens, you can make a lot of progress in a short amount of time. I love the optimism and the hope, and I hope we can spread that out to people. I just want to ask. The world's a dark place right now, man. I know. We got to take what we can. And I think the World Cup was one of those moments, right?

it felt this collectivity of the global experience, of the human experience for all of the hydration breaks and stadiums built maybe where they shouldn't be in all these things. I think that was the overwhelming experience that Americans had, but also the world had, which was a chance to watch, you know, Algerians celebrate through the streets of Lawrence, Kansas and to watch Dutch fans and Egyptian fans jump together in a stadium in Texas and all of these things that are a little bit different. Well, and that happened, but I would say that there were a lot of countries that couldn't come. Their fans couldn't come. So I'll just pick Jordan. And I love the country of Jordan. I've been there many times. They've never qualified for World Cup, right?

For a men's World Cup, I should say. They qualify now. They're at the World Cup, but their fans, many of their fans, can't travel. They're not given visas and they're on a list of countries that can't come in. So you have fans who are, you know, the Jordanian diaspora, Palestinian diaspora, who are part of what you described, right? But for someone whose Jordanian passport doesn't have a green card, doesn't live in the United States, who wants to come over, not possible in a lot of cases or very, very difficult.

And that, I don't want to take anything away from how wonderful that feeling was, but it's from a position of privilege. For those who are able to be a part of that, there's privilege that's involved with that. And not everybody had that privilege. So I was going to ask you what your assessment was of the 2026 World Cup. I think there's a piece in that there. I know the human, your center put together sort of a resource. for people that did attend, give us an idea of the work people maybe could get involved with going forward for what the center does.

Well, so what we try to do at the center isn't, you know, we're not, we don't do public naming and shaming. What we really are interested in is studying and understanding the nature of human rights risks and then providing be different actors, be it a host, you know, organizer who's actually putting on the games, city government that's providing security and transport and things like that at host cities to other actors with information that says, here's the nature of things that could happen, and here's what we've heard from civil society on how you can prevent and mitigate that. And by the way, hopefully you're doing your own assessment and engagement with local

civil society to understand what those risks are so you can prevent them. So what we're about is helping the different actors, again, those groups but also event owners. So FIFA themselves or the FIFA entity in Miami or the host committee for LA28 or the Iowa, right? It's awareness of what can happen and connecting them with the people who can say, you know, these are the bad things that can happen. and here's how you can prevent it.

That's what we really help facilitate, is that understanding of let's understand how what you do affects people and not in a good way, and how can we prevent that from happening through education, through awareness building, and through thought leadership. So that's really what the center, what we do, and a lot of the work that we do are for the event owner. And so one of the things that we did, you mentioned this for the World Cup, was a fan in community's resource guide. So if you show up at the World Cup and you've never been to Dallas before or you've never been to Boston before,

and you have a question about it could be immigration related, it could be LGBT rights related, it could be related to a whole bunch of different possible risks that could happen. Where do you go for resources? And so what we did is we put together a resource guide by host city and by area. Let me give an example, accessibility. You're someone who has accessibility needs for whatever reason. What are resources and what's the law say in that particular city on what you, and where do you go to complain?

if, hey, man, this isn't being provided and I have a real problem and how do I get that addressed? So what we did is we put together a resource guide working with all the host city committees on these problem areas that people could face as they want to enjoy the World Cup. So they're for fans that are coming in or live in the cities already and for people who live in the cities, maybe who are affected somehow by the World Cup. So that's what the guy did. And again, it's providing people with information so that they can get help if they need it. It was a huge event.

It's amazing to hear you rattle off the 19 big events that are coming up around the corner. A women's World Cup in Brazil and Olympics in L.A. And women's club World Cup. There's now a women's club World Cup, which is amazing. Yes. Do we know any details about it? We do not. You do.

I don't. Well, we'll see. But there's the specter of a woman's, which is fantastic. Yes. Right? You have the 2028 euros. You have the Winter Olympic Games. You have the Summer Olympic Games.

You have F1 events. You've got events happening all over. Are you allowed to do you have a favorite event? I assume based off going to Champions League and World Cup, you go to a lot of them. Do you have a favor one? I mean, I'm not objective. I mean, my two favorite events are the Women's World Cup and the Women's Euro.

And that's not to say the Women's Athcon might be, I've just never attended it. I'm sure it's amazing. Copamica feminin also may be amazing. I've never attended it. But I love, and I love the Women's Champions League Final. There's something about it that doesn't have this formality or this, there's something very authentic to me about it about these events. I brought my adult kids and grandkids to parts of the women's era last year in in Switzerland.

And it's just, God, it's just such a good time. And again, I'm not objective, right? But yeah, there's just an authenticity about it that I love. I was at the 2014 Men's World Cup in Brazil and the 2015 Women's World Cup in Canada. And so I'm excited those two are being combined. and there's going to be the Women's World Cup in Brazil. I think people are maybe sleeping on how big an event it's going to be here in the U.S. to have this team play in prime time and the success that they can have in the soccer that they play

and the style that they play. And you fuse all that with the culture and history of Brazil, I think, is going to be pretty special. So I'm really excited about that one. Maybe we'll have to have you back on to talk about it heading into it. But we appreciate the time you gave us. I could do this all day. I know you've got work to go do. So thank you so much

and hopefully we'll talk to you again soon. Fantastic. Thanks so much, David. Great conversation with Mary. Could have talked to her forever. So many interesting conversations and topics to have, whether it's in the development of the game, the development of the atmosphere and the environment around the women's game,

whether it's the growth of the sport in the U.S., whether it's the work that she's doing at the Center for Sport and Human Rights, which I highly recommend going and checking out their website, read about the work they've done, read about some of the work, you can get involved in as volunteer going forward in some of the reports that they put out on the major sporting events, Olympics, really, and World Cups in the past.

So thank you once again for joining us. We've got another big episode coming up next week. Make sure to subscribe to all the SoccerWise and First Touch shows that come out every single day. And we'll talk to you again very, very soon.