SoccerWise - Pardeep Cattry (CBS Sports) On NWSL 2nd Division &

Episode Date: April 30, 2025

Soccerwise digs into the biggest breaking news stories around NWSL. Pardeep Cattry (CBS) joins David to talk about all the big questions around the NWSL application for a new 2nd division league. Then they dig into the biggest storylines so far this season around NWSL and react to the news out of Chicago that they have fired head coach Lorne Donaldson. 1:22 NWSL D2 Reserve League Conversation20:15 Best Surprise So Far In The NWSL 2025 Season31:45 Biggest Storyline Of 202536:00 Reaction To Chicago Parting Ways With Lorne Donaldson Soccerwise Live 2pm ET Every Tuesday/Wednesday/Thursday on Youtube/Twitch/Twitter

Hey everybody, David Goss here. Welcome back to Soccer Wise. A special episode on this Wednesday. Jordan Angeley schedule completely slammed. So we're going to have a special guest. We're going to have Pardee Catry with us from CBS Sports. They're a soccer writer who broke the news on Friday about the bid by NWSL to create an official second division in the United States.

We will talk all about that, the news around it, the ideas behind it, how it could work, why it's being done now and what the idea is for the league behind all of that. And then we will touch on the breaking news today that the Chicago Stars have parted ways with Lauren Donaldson, the coach who took over about 16 months ago, helped lead them from their worst season ever in 2023 to the playoffs in 2024, but a playoffs that ended pretty quickly and abruptly in Orlando and then a season here that started the same way with a six-0 loss and they've won one and lost five games to start this season. So we'll talk about that and some

other big picture things we've seen so far this year. Biggest surprises, things we've enjoyed the most so far, other concerns and whatnot. So let's go to our conversation right now. All right, everybody. Well, we have a big conversation to have. We actually have a couple big conversations to have as there's some breaking news here on this Wednesday out of Chicago, but going back to last week, I thought that I was gonna do a weekend recap, talk a little bit about the games and what we saw, but it's never simple.

It's never straightforward like that. And Party Catchery ruined that for me. Soccer writer at CBS Sports putting out an article saying that NWSL has been to create a second division league a whole new soccer league to talk about coming out of this weekend party. But it was a pretty big news drop to throw us all off. Yeah, sorry for ruining your Friday. Yeah, huge news. Like you said, brand new soccer league.

They're envisioning it as just, you know, your classic reserve league. They do mention in the application that they submitted to you as soccer earlier this month that, you know, they mentioned minor league baseball as an example there. So at least the idea of it makes sense. Maybe the logistical details are the things that need to be filled in along the way.

Yeah, you obviously had the article on CBS, which I encourage everyone to go read if you have not talked about it a little bit on Monday. Now the coverage around it's starting to grow. But you talked about the bid letter that was put in by NWSL. So talk a little bit about the process of, you know, is that letter asked for? Is that something NWSL just prompts? And then from this whole thing, what this all looks like to go from not having a league to creating a league? Yeah, well, you do have to formally apply for something like this. And then from this point on, it goes to the U.S. soccer board to approve it.

They don't, there's no like hard timeline on that, just based on, you know, previous examples we've seen. When other teams have applied for this stuff, this, we kind of get the announcement in the second half of the year. So hopefully something like that, but yeah. and it might be the application doesn't have all the details and I don't think US soccer requires people who apply for it to have every single detail ironed out. They're going to ask for it at some point. But yeah, the

application has the bare bones of the thing. They say they'll have eight teams pledged for an inaugural season that would start next year if the plans get approved. They would have, it would be your classic double round robin style league. There'd be playoffs of four teams and a championship at the end. So that part of it all is coming together. They say these eight Division II teams would play in the same stadiums as the Division I teams, which is interesting. But yeah, I think there's still a lot of details that everybody has questions about and needs to be ironed out. It seems fine on the surface of like, you put in a bid, you still work on the details.

The fact that it is April 30th in 2025 right now, and the idea is this you put in a bid, you still work on the details. The fact that it is April 30th in 2025 right now, and the idea is this will launch in 2026. That part feels a little more constrained to me. Yeah, yeah, I think that's the biggest question mark everybody has. 2026 is not that far away as I'm sure every single person that pays attention to this podcast knows because you know, 2026 is a big deal for all of us around here. But that to me is like the big question mark. So I guess they have the teams in place, they have stadiums in place. I don't know, it takes a lot to lift any league off the ground. Even if you're the NWSL and you have more resources than you used to, to put something together like this, that for me is still 100% the biggest question.

Yeah, that part I think is a little worrying in that it makes sense that if you have to have these minimums to hit, six teams I think it was, the population size of the markets as well as the stadiums, NWSL already hits all of those, but it feels like they're gonna lean on the resources that already exist, which from everything we hear is already stretched pretty thin.

And so it seems a little worrying to say, oh, we're gonna throw another 25 individuals careers on the line and relying on the same people from a front office point of view, as well as facilities point of view, who are already saying we're stretched kind of thin to manage what already exists at the NWSL level. Yeah, that, like I keep saying,

I think I've said it like four times now, is like, that's the biggest concern is that, this is a good idea. I think everybody agrees that there needs to be pathways from the youth levels to the program. I don't, that's not a question. And we know that works across professional sports. How they put this thing together is really the big question. You kind

of worry if rushing it means that the product suffers at the beginning or ultimately the players who are being told this is your pathway, if they're the ones that are going to get the short end of the stick just because the plans are so rushed. Now that doesn't mean they won't be able to pull it off, but that of course is a very real concern that everybody rightfully has. And I think then that goes to the next question, which is why now? Why is there this timeline or rush or why is this commissioner said at NWSL Media Day back in January, where she very blatantly said that the next phase of growth for this league is to figure out that pathway to being a professional player, which makes total sense, right? They have openly admitted and their right to say it at this league, that the number

one thing that makes this league so compelling is the fact that some of the best players in the world play here. And in order to keep that, at least that branding the same for a long time, you have to make sure players have a place to develop. It's just like the obvious thing that all of us know has to exist. Especially now in a more competitive women's soccer landscape where, especially in Europe, people are foregoing, the college system isn't a thing there. Their players now debut at an earlier age in a way that's familiar to us in the men's game. And there's still that argument that the college

system ultimately stagnates players. So you're seeing like NWSL players too, the younger ones now don't go to college anymore. You have Trinity Rodman, who famously didn't do it a couple years ago. The Thompson sisters haven't done it. You know, you have every argument in the favor of having that pathway. So it makes sense that they want to do that. They obviously have more resources than they did at one point, so it's a natural next step. That's probably the why now of it. It would be silly not to mention the fact that there is another organization

that's filed for a D2 league and you have to wonder if there's a certain calculation there. I wouldn't necessarily say that the NWSL's application is exactly timed with that one. They filed the application on April 1st. The public announcement for the WPSL Pro League was almost two weeks ago. So whatever the timing is, it is what it is. But I think everybody was aware that this needed to exist. Now we've got multiple competitors in the space. It's hard not to think of those two things as somewhat related, if not 100% related, right?

It is. You always have to put the Z in when you talk about soccer wars because it's absurd in the United States that we have the combination of when will soccer make it and what league will be relevant versus 87 people trying to do it at the same time. And I think one of the things that always upsets me about this, and we've talked about it a lot on the men's side with USL applying for Division 1 status and saying they're going to bring in promotion relegation, which we've covered here on Soccer Wise. And then, of of course you had USL Super League apply for what we thought was going to be division two status

to become this league. And instead division one status, which is now in line or against NWSL, whatever term you want to use. It's the wasted resources. Like in the week in which you hear, especially it sounds like a lot of the money coming from this Cleveland pro soccer group to back WPSL as a pro league in a lower division,

I think it was originally announced as third division and now the bid comes in as a second division, that you'd love to see parties working together rather than two groups spending the money to start a league up and all the things and all the costs that come with that in which you could potentially have them working together and growing something stronger and a little more stable, which feels like a safer place for all of us to not waste resources in an area in which it is not limitless.

Like yes, NWSL is making more money. Yes, there is more attention and eyeballs, but it is not a limitless amount of money to put into this. And it would be nice, I think, to see these entities work together to grow this pathway like you talked about. Yeah, I mean, that that's been the big question that all of us have focused on men's game, women's game in this country for years, right? It's still I mean, I guess at this point, it still feels like we are not scratching the surface on finding all the best talent that exists in this country. I don't I would I think we'd all like to see that gap close as soon as possible.

I that that is right like the overall question it's not even just the logistics of this league it's are we going to are as everybody involved going to get the decisions right to make sure the players ultimately benefit from this? Because technically this is all supposed to exist to help them. Yeah, and that's where it's interesting because I think Logically in my head if you told me and and I tried to pull some of the numbers At back yield they wrote about The cost that it takes to carry a minor league soccer team right now in North America.

From a USL side, from the exterior, not putting in expansion fees, which you'd assume would not be a part of this for NWSL teams, the cost numbers were around $3.5 to $7.5 million. That's a huge range because that shows what leagues like this end up in, which is these haves and have nots and completely different markets with completely different realities, as well as teams that have different goals, right? Some teams will say, actually, we're going to sign more experienced pieces and win this thing or some coaches will say that and others will say, no, we're not going to do that and give opportunity to different players.

And the whole thing, we don't really know how it works. But my head logically, it was an academy system, having the ability to affect players from a young age, a technical, I think, grounding, because as much as college soccer has moved away, or some pieces have moved away, this is another year where the rookies are fantastic. We are seeing that there is a ton of value

in college soccer. And so I think in my mind, if you asked where the gaps existed in the pipeline, I didn't think this is the first place I would put X millions of dollars. I thought it would be before the college system to grow on top of it and say, from 13 to 18, how are you helping those players become their best selves and have their best opportunities? And then coming back into the NWSL pipeline at 21 or 22, if that's what they choose to do.

Yeah, I totally feel you there. And it again reminds me of something else Jessica Berman said at Media Day was that the word Academy means different things to different owners right now. Which you kind of get because none of them have actually, or well, a lot of them have like, I think what, eight NWSL teams now have academies,

but there are different phases. Some of them are newer than others. It's not the same- Some are association- Yeah. Rather than pure academies. And they're not all associated with these D2 teams either, which is actually an interesting thing to compare.

But while she says Academy means different things to different people, I think for the most part, it probably means the same thing to you and me. And most of the people who spend a lot of time in this space without necessarily having the finances to actually put these things together. Because I think soccer has proved, whether you look at the men's game, the women's game, finances to actually put these things together. Because we, I think soccer has proved whether you look at the men's game, the

women's game in the US or internationally, I think we've come to the realization that academies just work. And they're and going back to your previous point, they're expensive. It's just, it's something you have to put a lot of money into, in order to make sure that there are like the next generation of players exist. And there are different ways to make sure that there are the like the next generation of players exist. And there are different ways to make back that money. But it's just, it's just a huge expense. And I am because I think the NWSL owners haven't quite come to an

agreement on what that looks like. The NWSL can't impose that requirement on these teams right now. It seems like D2 might be that that compromise for them, right? Because they, in the application, they say, well, we're only going to have 18 or we plan to only have 18 teams for the inaugural season. We plan to have all of our D1 teams in the D2 league by year four. And they also plan to invite, um, any groups that are unaffiliated with the NWSL at some point.

So if, if I'm extrapolating, that's what I would guess is the case. But yeah, I do think like still the first gap to fill is everything before you're 18 years old, because by 18, I think we all know this, right? Player development is in a very different stage. It's more about refining the last pieces instead of like actually making sure players have the fundamentals to go and be the best versions of themselves when they become pro. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's interesting to hear that like Academy has different meanings to people because

while it doesn't as much to us, it also you do understand for some people there are complaints about I mean, we're hearing on the men's side right now as the men failed at the Nations League of like, are these players that are developed in these academies better or worse and all of that stuff. I think there is interesting debate around all of that. It's also interesting to think on pitching a business person who's not maybe as soccer focused aka these owners. It's easier probably to pitch another professional soccer team that can make its own money versus an academy.

The clubs that do generate some revenue from academy, it's normally player sales, which the numbers are not as big across the women's game. Also NWSL is one of the highest buyers. So it's hard to say, oh, you're going to get the money back by selling these players when you're the ones who normally buy at the biggest numbers outside of the Chelsea's of the world, as well as then you can run pay to play models, which is not exactly what we're talking about to help youth development because that turns you into creating customers rather than creating players. And that's a whole nother conversation that goes on there.

So it makes sense in that case to have the second league, except you're playing in the same stadium in the same city. I don't know the product that you're selling to a fan to come in because one of the things I always say is like, you have to give something different. Even if it's the same city in a different area, it's just are you are you are you offering something different to anyone else? And I think that part is a little bit hard based off the proposal that we've heard. And I know Casey Kern are one of the drivers of this, which makes sense. They own their building. They have the flexibility on the dates.

It's a great place to go. I could understand someone saying, oh, for five bucks, we could go watch a D2 game on a Sunday afternoon and the sun is out and it's nice. But it still does not sound to me like this huge opportunity unless this is just trying to get it through the door to then grow it as you go forward. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's also one of the things I came away with.

There was in this application discussion of, trying unique marketing strategies to get, just something that they could do with these D2 teams. And while I don't think there's anything wrong with writing that or even saying that or trying it. I mean, you make the point, right? It's these, the D1 teams are going to be the ones that people want to pay money to see. And we know that everywhere. That's true. People don't really want to go see Barcelona's youth team as much as they want to go see the real thing. And there are obvious reasons for that. So I think even if they're looking at the D2 league as a money-making vessel, which again,

is not inherently the wrong thing to do, it's still just not going to make you the kind of money that a D1 team is just destined to make or can make. So it goes back to the thing I was saying, academies and developing young players, that doesn't make money necessarily, but it's a needed expense to make sure the rest of the business stays afloat, right? Yeah. As you said, the biggest goal about all of this is your product, which is NWSL saying it's the best league in the world. I think you could have some people argue that if you took this money and expanded the salary gap and gave teams more money to spend on first team players, that might put you in that position as well. I think there'll be some debate about

that as this goes along. It doesn't change the world of player development and helping players get into a first team. But if we if the numbers we're saying are right, that it costs somewhere around $3 million at a minimum to run a second professional soccer team, that's a lot of money that you could put into your first team and bring in the best players in the world and increase the amount that your players make so that they want to continue to be a part of this. Yeah, that I mean, that is ultimately the big question facing the NWS on a lot of ways, right? They have more money than they used to, which is exciting.

But where are they going to put that money to make sure the product is as best as it can be? Because there are really so many different places that they need to put the money to make sure the product is as best as it can be because there are really so many different places that they need to put the money in that, you know, it's, it's not a limitless pot of money that they have, unfortunately. So you know, it it really is going to come down to seeing if they can get the details right. Whether that be as soon as next year, or that be after that. There's a lot a lot of stuff to follow with this.

A lot of big stories going on right now. We got the news coming out of Washington that there will be a new NFL stadium built in which it seems like there's women's soccer planned into it, whether that's the 2031 World Cup or Washington Spirit. There's a lot going on. There's a lot of excitement.

There's a lot of interest. There's a lot of energy around all of this. A lot of questions. A lot of questions. A lot of questions. And we are about six or seven weeks into the season. So I'm going to ask you some questions about this and I'll give some answers as well about what we've seen so far because I think a lot of times we fall in love with the off-field conversations and then we forget a little bit about what we're seeing on the field. And it's been pretty fun so far this season. Let's start with this one. What's been your biggest surprise so far in the 2025 season?

I think right now biggest surprise is probably the Washington Spirit being as good as they are with as many injuries as they have. That is obviously to the credit of lots of different people making sure that they can survive something like that, which I think for years, I think the Spirit have been one of the most exciting NWSL teams to watch. And it's nice to see them continue to do that even with the struggles that they have from the injury perspective. Yeah, I think that makes a ton of sense. It also is kind of harsh because it's like, even the playoffs last year, this team had a ton of injuries. So there's almost a level of expectation there, which is really unfortunate to say for a team that like,

oh, you expect there to be injuries and you expect them to play well, but they continue to reinforce. Rebecca Bernal, maybe I was gonna say was is probably one of the players on a list here if we were putting out all of the surprises and it makes a ton of sense. Washington sort of humbled

a little by Gotham this weekend. That was part of the insanity that is we don't know who's good, we don't know who's bad right now. But I think for Washington- I think we know some of the teams that are bad. Okay. We're going to get to that because that is a fair point and it is a little tough right now, especially for people in Chicago. But on the good side, Washington beats Orlando last week, then they lose at home. Gotham goes to Portland, they get shellacked, then they come and beat Washington.

How do you sort of deal with and level out all of that chaos? Yeah, that's a really good question. And obviously, the NWSL strength for several years has been its parity. I think we saw that fade a little bit in a way last year, where it was like very clearly the top four and then very clearly everybody else. Just based on you know, the standings at the end of this regular season and even the playoffs. And then you have the number one team in the in the shield race actually won the championship. So it was it felt like almost not that when we were watching it, it felt predictable. But looking back, it's like, okay, you can kind of see who the best teams are. It's pretty clear. It hasn't quite happened yet. I am. That's something I'm actually interested to see as the season progresses is, oh, are we gonna have a return to like the chaos of the season before where

we had, I don't know if you remember like 749 playoff scenarios in the second to last week or something like that. Um, I don't know if we're going to get a return to that or if we're going to get like the more, these are the haves and these are the have nots, just whatever version of the NWSL exists this year compared to the last couple seasons, that's really the big thing I'm going to be keeping an eye on. It hasn't true to form, hasn't been easy to predict so far this season, which is always lovely.

But which kind of sounded like half sarcastic, which I guess it kind of was, but I don't know. But no, I actually do genuinely enjoy the chaos of it all. So that's, but that is something I'm going to be looking forward as the season progresses. Are we going to get the chaos again or is like the pair or is, or there are some teams that are just the head ahead and shoulders above the rest. Yeah. I wonder if it's the right last year that the gap was top four was clear and then

North Carolina sat in five and then there was a huge gap after that. I wonder if this year, cause we're going to talk about the bad teams, which feel far off, but it's that the top four maybe came back down a little and the four behind that have gotten a little bit closer. Like even if the results haven't always been there, it feels like a Bay or a Seattle or a Portland can go head to head with most teams that we would assume are now top four. And I think Gotham reinserting themselves into that conversation.

And you're not shocked where last year it actually by the end would have felt a little surprising if they went on the road and knocked off a Gotham late in the year or Seattle went on the road and knocked off, you know, anyone for a large stretch of last season. So it feels like maybe that's the change this year is it's not one through 14 of parody. But it is to some extent, probably a little closer between three and eight, and two and seven and what we're seeing so far, which I would say for me to bring a team in, I was gonna say San Diego. And that is one where it's a surprise to me

that they've rebounded so quickly under a new head coach with a ton of new talent. This is not a carryover group from what Casey Stoney built and to do it as quick as they have has shocked me. The entertainment and the way it's done has been really exciting for me. And I think that's why it's one of the fun surprises. We can talk about Casca Reno and we talked about her coming into the season on this show but the Gia Corleys of the world, which I just wouldn't have guessed could be this big a factor every game. Trinity Armstrong coming

in. It just feels like this is a group that has, if you put together a list of surprises that you didn't expect, it would be like six or seven coming out of San Diego altogether. And then they insert themselves in that middle pack of, oh, these teams are better maybe than we thought they'd be. Right. Already a vast improvement from last season, which was, you know, it was not, it was not good. It was not good.

I was, I was thinking of something that felt like an expletive, but that's okay. Let's just say not good. It was not good. I was thinking of something that felt like an expletive, but that's okay. Let's just say not good. But yeah, no, vast improvement from them. It's been interesting to see. I'm not totally sure I would have seen it coming. I really am interested to see if they can keep this up, because we're only six weeks in and there's a long season ahead. But I think it must help to have that fresh start in some ways where the baggage of last season only feels so relevant. Yeah. I have to imagine it's a little bit different

than an expansion team in that there are some people who actually understand the environment and understand each other. So, you know, it just feels like a good marriage of different things to start the season, even including the adversity of last season. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think it feels like a fresh start, but you do you have especially down the spine, some experience who have been there before who know what it's like. And

I think the fan base already connected to it because it's not a new thing. So I think that's really fun to watch. On the player side, I was just going to say Morgan Gutra. It's awesome. She's one of my favorite players of all time. She's a reason the US won World Cups. It felt like we just were never going to see it again. She's on pace to more than double her minutes from last year. It will be the highest minute total if she gets close to what she's on pace for in over five years for her. And I think there's a lot of young players. We're going to do a college draft or college player rookie conversation next week because

Jordan told me I had to wait eight weeks to see enough of it, even though I am really impressed. But I think on the non-oh unexpected surprise because we didn't know what this player would be, I think seeing a player like that bounce back and return is awesome to watch and to do it in a team where even if you told me, oh, she's healthy and can play, I think I would have guessed at the beginning of the year, well, there's no space in that team

because of how good Orlando was and she's been a difference maker for them. Oh my gosh, yeah, that is definitely, it's sort of like, I love the story of the veteran player who finally gets their due. So that's very exciting for her, especially since, again, she's doing this now on the back of the championship win. And Orlando are still nice to see, they're still doing well.

Yeah, but I mean, in terms of like, surprise, you keep mentioning like these young players and it was just reminding me of the fact that Gotham ended up, they had a weird offseason where a lot of their veteran talent left and then they ended up getting some young players. And some of them are really taken very well to all of this, which, you know, it's always interesting to see because some coaches, you hear a lot, like it can take time to learn their system. That was something I think Crystal Dunn had actually said to us back when, you know, during her one very short season at Gotham, that it took some time to adjust to that system. But you're seeing some of the, you know, find

a spot, Lily Real is somebody who I think I've been very impressed by. And she's just had like big moments in such a short span of time. And now they, I mean, their back line took a hit with Tyra Davidson's ACL tier, unfortunately, but she's, she's really risen to the occasion. So, I mean, just piggyback off of the thing you were saying earlier about how the rookies this season have been very, very impressive in this first year after the draft. It's exciting to see because one of the concerns with no draft or like the diminishing importance of the draft is that just young players don't get as many opportunities.

I think we see that in MLS, right? These players that come out of the draft don't, it's harder for them to find a real place on their teams, but at least so far, so good with several players in the NWSL. that come out of the draft don't, it's harder for them to find a real place on their teams, but at least so far, you know, so good with several players in the NWSL. Yeah, Lily Rail has been awesome to watch. And as you said, it's a huge hole to step into. And I think bigger picture when Tierna Davidson went down with the injury and even I think the last year, because you felt it at the Olympics last year when Davidson was unavailable of Naomi Germa is the best center back on the planet.

Who else? And it didn't feel like the pipeline felt very robust of like, oh, there's a lot of great American center backs that you're going to push through. And we've seen Tara Mikio and get her opportunities, which I think are well deserved, but that's a player who was converted to center back two years ago as a pro. And so it's like, are we developing this player? Emily Sam's is a clear option in all of that. And I think the Dana probably we should start talking about an option at the

international level, but Lily real has played left back. She looks like a center back, but she looks pro ready. You go in Trinity Armstrong, Jordan bug, um, look at what's happening with Perry in Portland all of a sudden it feels like wait the next 10 years at centerback could actually be really really strong when i think if we had this convo exactly 12 months ago it would have been the completely opposite specifically in that position oh i think that's really exciting oh my gosh yeah this like off year for the nwso or i guess the off year for the USWNT and that they don't

have a major tournament. I think it's just so exciting to see like lots of different young players take their moments and know, okay, they have a little bit of time to really get things right and develop in a way that makes sense for them. And that makes sense, you know, obviously for the rest of the things be, you know, national team relevance or whatever. It's just sort of nice to see that next generation put it, you know, making a name for themselves at this early stage. I don't know, I am finding it just as interesting as the storylines like going into a World Cup or going to an Olympics, quite frankly.

Yeah, it feels like there's debate in a good way a lot of these positions for the first time in a while. There are no options, what can you do? But there are a lot of options and players are proving that they deserve it and fighting for it, which is really fun to watch. So I agree with you on Lily Reel. Sarah Schepanski, also a really impressive rookie

for Gotham. She's almost as close to Yasmin Ryan as you can be for a rookie, I think. And that's exciting for Gotham because that's one of the holes they were looking to fill in terms of moments so far this season. Do you have a moment that stood out or, you know, as you start to script out in a few months what your 2025 look back will be the early moments of the season that you'll say, ah, don't you can't forget that?

The one thing that sort of stands out to me right now is that there have been a weird number of lopsided results for teams that you would consider to be in the top, or the front of the pack. We're talking about Gotham losing 4-1 to Portland and then five days later beating the Spirit 3-0. Angel City is also one of those stories where you're like not quite, like they've been like interesting. And they've had real good moments. And then you go and you lose what?

Like four nothing to Gotham, which that happened right before their Portland game. So they were all over the place that week. And that happens they don't take a single shot on Target. And you know, Christian Press is issuing an apology to the fans, this was a new development. But then you have them going toe to toe with Orlando the following week.

It's just like the return of the parody maybe. It's in a way everybody's so all over the place. I don't know if that's like early season roster, like everybody just trying to figure out how they click and how they work or if that's really a sign of that closing of the gap between the top teams and the next. Yeah, yeah. I think that makes a ton of sense.

I think especially if we get to the end of the year and it's like, oh, everyone's within six points of each other, that will have been that storyline that was set in place. I think one of the tough things so far is like, we haven't had that explosive matchup between the teams we think will be at the top. Washington is really the one who has played the others in terms of Kansas City and Orlando,

and they haven't been the most exciting games. At the same time though, I think back to last year, and I think you would say that Orlando, Kansas City game right before the break, the mistake from 80 French to let Orlando win whatever term you wanna use with the red card. I wonder if GIF Monday's goal, we look back at the end of the year,

if Washington is able to push ahead of Orlando and Kansas City and say to steal that win, like you said, with all the injuries Washington has, the way they were outplayed to be able to go down Orlando. Is that one of those moments that we look back on and we say that was this turning point or that those three points were bigger than three points? Maybe it comes down to a tiebreaker. I will say though, I love an underdog. I always watch for an underdog, but I also like the like pride and heart of a champion. And so to watch Angel City first half this weekend and be like, this is awesome.

This is young players believing in themselves. They are going after the champions. Like no one plays that way in Orlando. It is awesome. But to watch Orlando be like or literally Martha's quote and that there's no fun in our house. Like it is fun to watch excellence shine out and I there is something great about Orlando's not in the legacy conversation yet but like of a legacy group say not today. We've been bad for 75 minutes

and we still believe we're gonna come back and win this game. And so I think if I were to say to someone like, watch one game from this season so far, it would be that one game from Friday night and just seeing the two extremes of the great young talent coming through. And then Marta and Barbara Banda being like,

we're also the best players in this league. There's something to be said about building that sense of inevitability that it's like, oh, you could be one of those teams that, like you said, were not at their best for 75 minutes. Like, oh, I got this, don't worry about it. Yeah, very little stress somehow. A lot of credit goes to the people there

because that is definitely not something you would have ever associated the Orlando Pride with at any point before now, but Good for Martin Absolutely, it is awesome to watch. It's really fun to follow week in and week out I was going to ask you to close this out the biggest worries for a team I think Chicago letting Lauren Donaldson go about an hour ago before we recorded this Probably pushes them to the

top of this list for both of us a list they were probably already close to the top of anyway. So Lauren Donaldson now officially let go as head coach, assistant coach will take over right now as interim head coach for a team that has won victory so far this year has struggled to score goals. Mal Swanson, we still don't know what her participation will be if any this season, which has been a huge miss for this team. Sam Stobb was able to come back early from injury, but it is a depleted roster for sure.

For sure, it is a team that has struggled to perform. What do you make of the decision to let him go right now at this point in the season? I mean, six weeks in a season feels early, but at the same time, it's like, okay, he had last season. I don't, I think for as much as they wanted to pitch last season as a rebuild with some exciting moments, even if they couldn't put the whole thing together, at least there would be some encouraging

points. I don't really think there was a lot of optimism that you could take from his first season in charge, quite frankly. Look, I'm the kind of person that always wants to see exciting attack in soccer, so it's not my style of play that I prefer. But I think even, so you can justify the decision to fire him. Um, I think the biggest problem, the bigger problems with Chicago are outside of the coach though, because it's a team that works with a mouse wants in place and she's not playing and it doesn't matter the circumstances in which she's not playing. You cannot build a team to exist solely around one person. Um, and it feels like build a team to exist solely around one person.

And it feels like we're now what two years with the new ownership and the new leaders and it feels like the roster isn't coming together in a way that would feel competitive in the NWSL that and that and even if Lauren Donaldson hadn't gotten fired today. I probably still would have answered that because they just it doesn't feel like a team that's meeting the moment in terms of where the competition in the NWSL is. At least some of the teams at the bottom of the pack, you're seeing, okay, well, they did try something. It's not coming, it's not coming off, but they did try something and there's still time for them.

But I, I don't know. I'm very, very, I have a lot of questions about the vision of Chicago right now. They can answer them. They can fix it. These are all fixable problems. But yeah, these are questions I have. Yeah, I think it's completely fair to say that both Lauren Donaldson has struggled to keep up his end of the bargain and push this team forward. But at the same time, this is not a solution because that is not the lone problem. And so it ends up tough on him. I do think it feels like from the outside watching over the last 16 months, that the success at the international level with Jamaica for him,

probably fit the international level a little bit better. There hasn't been a ton of tactical progression, which at the beginning is fine. You're just trying to get results. 2023 was such a bad year. And then it felt a bit like Jamaica, which is, can we get the margins tight enough and win every once in a while on a set piece on a mistake? Can we not beat ourselves and beat other teams? And that I think works better at the international level. I think Emma Hayes has talked a bit about the shift between the two. There's less open games and there's less progression and possession and all of that patterns of play at the international level But then it felt like it regressed almost over the last year when you wanted to start growing with the success that you had On the field to an extent

Last season but on saying that they do not have a competitive roster Right now compared to other teams in the league and in an offseason in which you see teams that are good Washington Spirit got and signed Rebecca Bernal There's a team that went to a final last year and they could look at it and have said oh we had injuries this We're actually better than we were and we'll be fine. No, they go and push things They try and make that next edition They try and push things forward as well as other teams that have struggled, even Portland to say that when they lost Sophia Wilson and Morgan Weaver,

after the retirements of all of the players, they went out and spent money to bring in the best college players and have them be rookies there and be somewhat competitive and fun. Uh, you said it like a style you want to watch, sell a product to your fans. And right now Chicago selling neither one win and five losses so far to start the year. But at the same time, does this fix any of it is the big question. So Masaki Hemi will take over as interim manager.

We will see if there is some fix in there. I mean, I said it coming out of the win against Bay. Like there were things in that game that looked good. It wasn't just fortune and luck. They were getting Ludmila in dangerous areas having her play up top alongside a second forward opened up the game a little bit with Staub back and Mattheon back like it feels like Maitani back. Feels like there's some stability at the back line. You obviously have the best goalkeeper in the league. So that's going to give you like, there are things there still, but it feels like they chose to put themselves in another year of like, can we overplay our expectations? And that's unfortunate when it felt like, okay,

two years into a new ownership group, let's start to build and make it make our ceiling even higher. Right. You sort of, you mentioned Washington spirit. And I think that's kind of maybe the right example to go for when it's like new ownership and how that would affect at least the on-field product. Not everybody's going to be Michelle Kang, right? That's okay.

It is what it is. But the thing to her credit is that she built this idea that they had to be a good team, that they had to be ambitious. And I think the new ownership groups have to follow that in some way. I don't think they're all going to get it right. It's hard to get that right full stop. But that's the kind of thing where it feels like the Chicago owners are still maybe at level one when at this point in the process, nobody is anticipating that they should be at level one anymore, right? And especially not the fans. Yeah.

The coaching hire now will be interesting because we just went through it with Angel City. We talked on this show about opportunity for former NWSL players. There's been debate all over the place about opportunity, whether it's for female head coaches or not. I think to me, part of what I was saying in our show at least, was I think having played and been around this league has value. So that's where you are going to end up with a female coach

because it is a women's soccer league, but also you end up in a situation, I think, where you are respecting the place people have been. And I think you look at Jimmy Conrads and he's had his success and has been a good coach But also, you know all of these coaches and all of these managers for the most part There are spots in their resume where there are question marks No one is an obvious perfect fit all the time Emma Hayes taking over the US. That's one Okay, you've coached Chelsea for a decade, you're knighted and all that type of

stuff. That's pretty rare. So I think that's where the opening comes of like most likely whoever Chicago puts in this position is not perfect and has every box checked. It's the ones you choose and therefore the opportunity and risk you take and it will be interesting to see if they give one to someone who has been around NWSL a little bit longer and has some more background with the league. That's technically true for most of the coaches in this league, right? Like Jonah Heralde has had a pedigree coming into the spirit. I don't really know that many other coaches in this league did, not to that level. I mean, you look at Seb Hines, you know, he was a former pro who was, you

know, was, you know, working inside the Orlando Pride setup for some time before coming up. By the way, as an interim at first, it ends up working out, right? Like, I can't really speak to what goes on when people decide who to hire as coaches and who not to. But you do, it's quite obvious that the pipeline for coaches, for players that come out of the NWSL to become coaches is not there. And there's actually nobody, there aren't really enough people putting in the effort to make sure those players get chances.

Because I think what right now there's only one former player in this league that's a coach. I think it's Bevianas. And of course that was going to take time just because this league was so young, but it's not, it's not young enough anymore to have that excuse. There's only one other female coach in this league, Laura Harvey. Yeah, people just aren't putting in the work. In theory, Chicago's kind of a good situation where Chicago can't fix this with like a magical new coaching heart either, right? It's

not like they can, I don't know, in theory, convince Jonah Gonzal and hear all this to come over there or something. Like that's not how's going to happen. They're not going to fix it that way. But if they get a coach and they come up with a plan, they could really go a lot of different directions if they decide now is the time to hatch a new plan, a new vision to take this team in a good direction. What's going to happen there? I don't know. But it's a good point that you bring up. And I think in all of that, maybe one of the things that they struggled with over this year is just connections that coaches have. I think we see it already with Jonas and Heraldo's of like, Esme Morgan understands who he is and what he is and respects him.

But on the flip side, if you bring someone in from the NWSL sort of ecosystem, can they sort of lean on contacts and bring in players and maybe build a culture faster, I guess would be my idea behind all of that. But in all of this, like you said, you have to give some opportunity. It's awesome what happened with set behinds, but you'd like to see former players in NWSL get assistant coaching opportunities.

I understand on the D2 convo, that's a part of this. Like you will be able to put young coaches in as assistants and as head coaches at that level for them to start to learn how the job is done. And we've seen it all across the world with reserve clubs and their opportunities that they exist outside of just the playing field. But I think to say like there are not enough qualified options, I think it's tough when it feels like some of the head coaches that are hired are unqualified to some extent already and it's just choosing what risk you want to take with all of that and it feels like you can have some really high

reward if you're able to do it the right way. I was gonna ask clubs who are in trouble I think Chicago feels like it fits the answer for the most part. North Carolina and Utah probably in there as well but we could do that another time. I don't want to take too much of your time. So if you don't already follow Party on all social media platforms, read CBS for all of your soccer news. I am sure what it's Wednesday.

So Friday, you'll break some huge story as well. And then we'll all scramble to cover it once again. And maybe we'll have you back on as well after that. So thank you for taking the time. I appreciate you joining us. Thanks for having me. And maybe I won't try all back on as well after that. So thank you for taking the time. We appreciate you joining us. Thanks for having me. And maybe I won't try to break news on Friday. Fridays are usually my day off.

There you go. Jessica Berman did not care about that. Didn't respect the schedule. As I said, must read all the time and we'll talk to you again soon.