SoccerWise - PRO Referee Edition: Joe Dickerson & Filip Dujic

Episode Date: January 24, 2025

Tom & David go behind the whistle with two of the biggest rising stars at PRO. Filip talks about his viral moment this year with his "HOWEVER" announcement in St Louis. And both Joe & Filip discuss their pathway into refereeing, their favorite parts of the career, stepping into the cauldron of CONCACAF, and much more.Soccerwise Live 2pm ET Every Tuesday/Wednesday/Thursday on Youtube/Twitch/Twitter

Hey everybody, welcome back in to SoccerWise. We've got a special episode for all of you. Myself and Tom, of course we like to yell about all things soccer. Sometimes that's about roster configuration. Sometimes coaching hire. Sometimes play. And sometimes it comes to refereeing as well. So we figured we'd have a couple of experts on. So myself and Tom here to talk with Joe Dickerson about pro, about refereeing, and all things going on.

And however, yes, we've got Philip Dewich with us as well. One of the moments of the year, his refereeing and his call around VAR. Philip, Joe, thanks for joining us. Thanks for having us. Thanks for having us. Philip, I'm sure you don't get sick of hearing that, right? It's been getting a bit out of control. I thought that it was finally over and done with, but I went to camp this past weekend in houston i heard it about every five minutes so it's still very much fresh

and uh and it has yet to go away but did but didn't tori kind of uh kind of steal your flow on that she did it well she did the next evolution of it was she getting it similar or were they just kind of giving you uh tori Tori's was definitely great. She actually messaged me. She's like, I see her, however, and I raise you a therefore. So I thought that was pretty clever on her part. But the only thing hers did for me, though, is just they reminded everyone of the original one as well.

So then everyone who forgot about it said, hey, look, you got a partner here. So they brought it up again. So, yeah, Tori did a great job with her announcement. People love both of them. I think it's great for the league. Did you realize that linguistics and pacing were part of the expertise of being a referee? No, it was actually funny how that whole thing happened. In the moment, for what happened in the game,

there was an offside on the field. We went to review. Everyone's asking about the offside. There's nothing else anyone is asking about. But then when I get to the monitor, it turns out there was a foul before that. And it was something that no one really, no one was asking anything about.

No one knew there was a foul. And when I went to announce it, anyone who knows me knows that's just my personality. That's just how I talk. So I started to deliver my announcement. And then everyone started to cheer or getting happy. And I was like, hold on, guys. I have to finish my job. So I finished it.

I did my announcement. I didn't think anything of it and then at halftime a player uh patted me on the back and said you really got us to that announcer and i was like oh okay whatever um after the game i started receiving some messages from some colleagues who don't really watch the mls all that closely. They're like, this is hilarious. Sending me the link, 20k views. I was thinking, okay, well, this is interesting. Before bed, another one, this time 100,000 views. And I'm thinking, here we go. Our director of communication, Chris Rivett messaged me and I'm like, oh, what have I done? So I wake up in the morning, I look again, millions, everyone messaging me.

So it took on a whole life of its own that I never could have imagined. I was just there doing my job, trying to get the announcement across. I was interrupted. I tried to calm the crowd and it became what it became. So it was quite an ordeal. So one of the tropes or the truisms would probably a better way to say it of referees is that you want to be anonymous you want to be have no not even a congratulations because the absence of criticism means you had a phenomenal game so joe

if you if you were in that situation like it's not like you're looking for a spotlight in any way so kind of how would you handle that and then fill up after joe like was that uncomfortable yeah i mean we never really want to be the center of the tension um i mean it kind of comes with a job i think i think in modern day football um there are times when for the good of the game we have to take the spotlight um because the the alternative is you hear you know you'll hear a commentator or you'll hear uh people knowledgeable football people, say the referee's risking losing control of the game or the referee's lost control of this game. And so that necessitates an ability to know when to step in and when to make yourself more prevalent and then when to step back, which is honestly what I, the vast majority of us prefer. But yeah, that, that kind of a situation, I think that's really the human side of football. You know, like I did text Phil in the aftermath of this and he responded the exact same

way that he just did now. He said, that's just mean. And, and we were, we were instructed right at the, right at the outset of this project, the announcement project that we were to use our own personality because there's really nothing worse than just being robots on the field. That's not how we communicate to players. It's not how you get the most trust from players and coaches and spectators and commentators and everyone. It's about using your personality and interacting with people. And so I think the genuineness of Phil's announcement is process of coming back and then having one of your most popular moments be something involving involving a review is obviously a challenging situation. But I think, you know, I think we all go to the monitor. Right. It's it's a it's an inevitability. And I think Phil handled it as well as anybody possibly could in that situation.

Yeah. Were you uncomfortable, Phil? No, I mean, I think Joe did a really good job of describing that it's definitely as a referee you want to you know blend in and don't want to be in the spotlight but i think in that situation um i think it's actually i didn't mind it at all i was i thought it was funny at point, I was a little bit annoyed because I was like, okay, at this point, you can stop sending me GIFs of myself on iMessage. So that was a little bit annoying, but I think

ultimately it was good because the fans enjoyed it, which is good for the league. It's good for everyone. It's all what we want as fans of the sport, as fans of the MLS. We want people engaging in the content, engaging with the league it's good for everyone and it's all what we want as fans of the sport as fans of the mls we want people uh engaging in the content engaging with the league more eyeballs to the league this this is what all of us as fans of the game fans of the league want so i think in that regard it was good and as joe said i think seeing the human side of us is really important because

so often you just the fans see referees as someone who like screwed over their team or they only know them as people that do something wrong when they kind of look at them as like these robotic figures and I think when fans are able to see the personality of the referees and see more of the human side and who they actually are beyond just what they've whistled in the moment, I think it gives fans a different perspective. And it's also a testament to the MLS with the innovation they've done and going ahead with these announcements, being amongst the first in the world. I think it's a great testament to the league and I think it's good for everyone.

So kind of for the both of you on that thread, right? So I'm imagining you either as kids or young adults watching referees just get berated by players, by parents getting screamed at. You suck, all this. And you guys were like, yeah, this is what I want in my life. So is that how you started being a referee? Well, so I was I played for a long. And I'll try to keep this brief. But we had a coach that, that insisted that the whole team get their license when we were 10 years old. And yeah, it was great. There were there were a number of reasons behind it. One was because it's a really good way for kids to make money on the side, teach them responsibility, that sort of thing. But also it's, I believe that the, the bet,

one of the best ways to learn any sport is to learn the rules behind the game. So, you know, if I want to learn cricket, I have to learn the rules. Same with rugby, even these,

some of these sports that we're not as familiar with the best way to figure them out is to learn the rules. And that was our coach's idea. It just so happens that I also, you know, may have used my knowledge of those rules to try to manipulate referees when I was younger. So in fact, I was a terror on the field. I probably, I think I led the league in yellow cards when I was 18. I would hold players behind

the back of the referee when on corner corner kicks defensive corner kicks so that i knew he couldn't see it um and it's and like you know it's it's one of those things where a little knowledge is is kind of dangerous in some ways um but also i think you know that kind of that kind of informs the way that we referee when we're older. And early on, I probably, as I stepped up to new higher levels, I think I let a little too much go at each higher level I stepped up to. Because you look at elite referees and you think, these guys really manage a physical game. I think I need to be able to do that. And then I think it was a famous U.S. referee, Alfred Klonitis, who said that he saw the game, his responsibility in the game is to not let players play the way that he used to play,

which is, I'm paraphrasing there, but that's essentially the idea that, look, I wasn't good enough to make it the professional level. And so I had to use, I'd use cunning or, or if you want to be more cynical, dirty play to gain an advantage. And, and we can use that to our advantage as referees in terms of understanding how players play to get an advantage. And then that also, you know, that more some of the communication aspect, understanding how players play and being able to communicate to them on that level is, is, is so important for our, for developing trust on the field with the players and,

and having an open line of communication. And I think when you can demonstrate that, you know what they're doing and not even that you've caught them, it's that we're on the same page regarding the tactics you're using or anything like that. And it's, it's a really productive process in terms of working together to manage the flow of the game.

Phillip, were you being a dirty player as well? Similar story to Joe, but I had a, I, I guess I had a little more negativity to refereeing where in my, my, in my situation,

my dad was actually a referee here in the Toronto area for a number of years and he was telling me for a while hey you should really get into refereeing it'll be good to make some money in the summer etc and for myself I've been an avid athlete my whole life I got soccer basketball track and field all sorts of things I just I played sports the whole year and then when my dad said I should be do a referee course I said I'm not gonna be a referee that's not cool like what I'm like refereeing is not cool that's not something I'm gonna do so I was like okay dad I'm not gonna do this whatever and then he just kept going going, kept going for a number of years. And I thought, you know what? I'll cave.

Let me give this a go. And I did the course. And then when I started refereeing, something drew me to it. Just being around the game, the new challenge of it. Like I've played sports my whole life. I've played soccer my whole life at various competitive levels. And you see the game from that perspective. But now you're taking on a whole entire new challenge with its own complexities and its own difficulties.

So I started doing it. It started going well for me. And then, you know, that, you know, compounds and causes you to pursue more goals. And the further I get, the more I wanted to do. And it just kind of went from there so it took a really interesting twist from a path where I didn't really think this is something interesting at all as an athlete I could never see myself as a referee but then when I started doing it it just you just kind of took off so so and to sorry sorry dude just to add a little to

what Phil said because I actually have a little bit similar as well. Um, the, I never wanted, I never saw this as a possible career path either. And it was like Phil, I always tried to be, you know, I wanted to be a professional athlete and I pursued every, every possible avenue to do that. Um, but there's, there is some special draw to refereeing that involves all the all of the aspects of being a professional athlete from a physical standpoint, with some mental challenges that aren't present, I don't think. And I think that's one of the big draws. And then just sorry, I remembered one of the original parts of your question was how we looked at referees when we

were younger, younger. And I specifically remember watching the early days of MLS and I'll pick two MLS referees specifically, Kevin Stott and Baldo Toledo. Um, I, I hated watching them referee. I, I, and I've told both of them this, I, I didn't like the style, their style on the field. I didn't like the way they interacted with players. Um, and it just didn't, it didn't like their style on the field. I didn't like the way they interacted with players. And it just didn't seem right to me. And then I met them when I made it to this level. And I have to say that both of those men are two of the best people I've ever met in my life.

They're great human beings, great family people, and just some of the most positive people to be around. And as I got to understand refereeing, I got to know more of why they had to act the way they did at times and why that made them successful. And so it's really interesting. It kind of goes back to our point of not wanting to take the spotlight. It's easy to look at some referees who end up in the spotlight and think that they want to be there, right?

And these two guys were extremely successful in their career because they knew when to do that and when not to do that. And then, you know, there's, again, this human side to these people that is so different than what you see on the field. So I was going to save this for later, but we're here already, right? Like, so for the both of you, I want you to think of, what's one thing that you'd want a fan or a player to know that humanizes you? Do you love puppies? Do you volunteer? Do you put your of what's one thing that you'd want a fan or a player to know that humanizes you?

Do you love puppies? Do you volunteer? Do you put your shopping cart back at the grocery store every time? Do you help an old woman cross the street? Any of that that would make somebody at least hesitate before they tell you to go after yourself. Phil, you want to go first? None of the above. I've got ideas, but, you know.

I was almost hoping you went first. Oh, go first. I feel like I'm around soccer way too much. I need to actually think about who I am first. I can go first. To Tom's point, I do love dogs. That is, anyone who knows me will know that if there's a dog in the vicinity, I will stop everything I'm doing, including any serious conversations, to go pet that dog. Which means a Minnesota fan who's a cat person might actually hate you even more.

Goss is such a hater. He's just ready to go. I just picked a random fan. My wife has a cat. We also have a cat. Okay, cool. No, no, no. My wife has a cat yeah we also have a cat um at the i will there's there's video evidence of this on youtube of the all-star game from a few years ago where they had the target dog in minnesota and i stopped to pet that dog in the walkout so there is video evidence of that that exists online that's a famous dog by the way it's a it is a famous dog, by the way. It's a big deal. It is. It's a famous dog.

Yeah. I will also say in terms of humanizing that I have had conversations with fans that have been incredibly positive. And I'm not going to, I won't name the team or the fan base or anything, just out of respect. But there are, each of us has games and teams

where even if we did everything right, that fan base won't like us for quite some time. And I met a supporter of one of those fan bases who was outside a gate when I arrived at a venue last year or two years ago. And he yelled my name, and I walked across the parking lot just to talk to him. And we had a really positive five minute conversation that ended with, you know, like it's just it's difficult to describe that kind of feeling where we both kind of got through to each other that I can understand his points of view.

And and he was able to see me as more than the guy who made you know sent off two players of his team in a game once and um and it's those kind of googles exactly yeah little hints little hints um he uh it was just this really positive interaction and and this kind of goes back to something phil said earlier which was that the fans are really what we all do this for, the players, the coaches, and us, and everyone involved. We are meant to be despised at

times, you know, and some of the most... It's just inherent with the bias of rooting for your home team, and that's passion. The passion creates that bias. And that passion is what makes the game beautiful. So some of the most difficult venues to referee in,

the loudest, the most hostile environments, are some of my favorite places to go. Not because we're gluttons for punishment necessarily, but because that means that the fans there love the game so much that they're always going to be rooting for their team. And I think that's a beautiful thing. And we have a lot of that in this country now. Phil, you mentioned you're around soccer so much. I've been lucky because I do the GA Cups every year to be around referees

who are coming up through the system as well as the instructors. And I think that's one of the things, as Joe talks about the passion that people don't realize is how soccer crazy referees are. Like you do it because you love the game. And I've been really fortunate in sitting in some of these spaces, watching the game with referees, how knowledgeable referees are about styles of play and flow of play. And like you are living and breathing the game. Can you talk a little about sort of how you experienced the sport and,

and maybe that part that people miss about why you want to referee specifically a soccer game? Of course. No, that's a great question. I think that part of the reason that we're able to be successful in our roles as referees, I think that we need to be people that really understand the game very well from all perspectives. I think it can be a very dangerous place if you start falling into your little referee silo and only understand the game as a referee. You can sort of detach from the empathy and what other people might be thinking and feeling in your position. I think as a fan of the sport, you need to, of course, know the game as a referee, but also as a fan, as a player, as a coach, as like a referee mentor. I think all of these

things are very important. From myself, you know, I've interacted with the game in all those facets, but then it's also part of our daily, weekly, monthly training where it's not enough to just go out and do our games and do a self-analysis. You need to be watching other games all the time. You need to be seeing what's going on in the world because not just understanding what happens in the game from a technical standpoint or how you interpret interpret it but how the world interprets it shows such as this what people in the community are saying you need to have an understanding of what soccer means to people how they're feeling about all these things and having that holistic knowledge allows you to do a good job on the field and go out there and deliver what you need because as joe said you you are establishing a certain standard

on the field and how players uh can play and what they can do but also a big part of the product people are there to watch a good product to watch the game to enjoy the game and if you're not in tune with what is what are the expectations of the public, of the league, of what people find enjoyable, then you won't be able to succeed in your role. So as you said, I feel like it's almost a prerequisite to be so attached to the game and involved with it on a day-to-day basis. And I think the more you're able to dive into it and just experience it from all facets,

the better you'll do and the better it will be for all players and stakeholders. Let me give you guys a chance here. If anything comes to mind, I didn't prep you on this, so feel free to not, but you mentioned shows like this and the conversation. Is there any big misnomers out there that you want to be like, whether it's handballs or VAR or any conversation or terms people use where you're like, I would love the chance to say that you're all wrong or this is how you should read it or anything like that? Is there anything that

sticks in your craw when you hear people talking about games? From my perspective, I think there are perhaps some generalities to sort of mention. And then i wouldn't necessarily pinpoint any one thing but i would illuminate the fact that there's many situations where fans will equate two situations as being the same but missing very critical details and so often these critical details make make a big difference in what the decision might be someone might might get hit in the face with a finger or a hand, and another person might get hit in the forearm. And they could be vastly different plays in terms of the amount of force that was generated.

But a fan might say, oh, this person was hit in the face, and they think it's the same. So I think in terms of subtleties, it's that. But as a generality, the big misnomer, I would say, is just the general approach to refereeing and what we see on the field. I would love if someone could see what we see in the moment. Because when you're watching on TV, of course, all of us, when we see a clip from 10 different angles in slow motion, yes, you can get the decision. But I want people

to be able to stand on the field when there's people moving, when there's people in front of you. Sometimes people will say, oh, you're right there. How can you not see it? Well, maybe you're looking at the feet and someone elbowed someone in the face, but you didn't see it. Maybe somebody stood in your way at the worst possible moment, and you wish you could just move that person out of the way, but you can't. So you look like you're close, but you can't actually see it. So I think that's the biggest thing. Like we get one look in real time. It's fast. People are moving. You're tired. Run seven, eight miles in the game. You could be, you know, it's not easy to do these things.

So I would love if people could just somehow be there from my point of view and see what we saw in the field. And then I think there would be more of an understanding in terms of what you call or don't call, because it's it's much easier from the couch. Anyone can back 400 from the press box type of thing. I'll run this clip for Tom once a week when he's ready to get on his high horse. Another thing while running a half mile. Joe, does anything pop in your head? Yeah. I mean, Phil brought up some great points,

especially like the philosophy of, of fairness, I think is kind of what he was getting toward and consistency. And I think that there's two things that I like to kind of think about and talk about that I've kind of developed over the last few years, which is that, you know, our job really is to make things fair on the field, and make sure both teams feel like they had a fair shot at winning. But fairness doesn't, fairness is justice, it's not equity. And that is a, that is a really

difficult thing to, to expect people to believe in the moment when they have a vested interest in the outcome of a match. And again, that's all stakeholders who are invested in the outcome of a match. And so like, realistically, on the field, most people equate fairness with equity. And that makes it really difficult for us because, you know, and I've had this conversation with players before, and in the moment, it's really difficult when emotions are high. But I think there's an inherent understanding of that. So it leads me to my second point, which is about consistency, because those are often interrelated, that if you're being consistent, you're being fair, because both teams have equal chances at, you know, whatever it may be, penalties or anything like that. Coaches and players, you hear them talk all the time about consistency. But there's an understanding that what is a foul in certain positions and certain situations, game states, isn't a foul in others. So right away, you know that people understand

that consistency isn't actually what they think it is. And I think this is something I've thought about over the last four or five years, that it's not actually consistency of decision making that people want. It's this consistency of consequences. And I think that's a really, really important thing that I wish we could explain to people in a, in a less emotional environment. So it's really what you call a foul in the midfield when it's, you know, just general open play where there's no transition is the same for both

teams. What you call a foul as a, as a defender is facing his own goal line as an attacker bumps him in the back is the same for both teams. What you call as a penalty is the same for both teams. Because people know that a defender getting bumped from behind at the goal line is always going to be a foul, if there's a reason to call it a foul. Whereas that contact is never a penalty kick. And everybody accepts that. So it's consistency of the consequences of the decision. And I think that's

where you can get back to the fairness and the equity part that if you are able to be consistent with the consequences, then players feel like everything's equal. They feel like everything's fair. And then there's justice in the game, right? And then of course, something will happen where somebody does something egregious and it's way worse than what the other person did. And you can't possibly have that equity. So, you know, that's, that's when things become difficult. But we try to avoid that as often as possible. That makes sense.

And looking at it in terms of consequences, right, I think that that's a good way to frame it. Changing gears a little bit here. So we're on the eve of the 2025 season, and you guys are in the midst of training camp, whether it's literally right now or different locations. I'm not sure that fans understand that you guys have an actual preseason training camp, which is cool and obvious when you think about it.

But this year is a lot different than last year. So you guys last year had CBA negotiations and then ultimately labor stoppage. So coming into preseason, into training camp right now, how much different is the vibe than it was last year? Well, I ended up not being at preseason camp last year because a week before, a knife slid off the counter, landed on my foot, severed a tendon, and I needed surgery. What? So that was super fun.

Yeah, yeah, I missed some time last year. The vibes are up is what you would say. The vibes are up for me for different reasons. Yeah, no, I was only like a six- week injury and I'm, I'm all better, but only got this knife through my foot. So look, I'll say that, um, obviously last year was difficult and, uh, you know, rhetoric around work stoppages are always, um, really challenging from both sides. And, you know, I gave some interviews last year during that lockout that I'm sure are still out there. And I want to reiterate a few points, which are that all of our management team were at

one point where we are, where we were as members of the union working on the field. And so, you know, some of the difficult situations and negative feelings that would have existed are just inherent parts of doing business. And, you know, it's difficult to separate some of the personal feelings from the business aspects, but we all kind of get it. And I think wading through some of the difficult things last year has put us in a very different and much more positive place coming to the start of the season. And now, look, everyone's in a different position. Everyone has different roles they played in that lockout and different feelings at the start of this year. But the vibes were good, as you said.

The vibes were good at preseason camp. No knives. No knives. Spoons only. That's right. I now have to wear footwear in the kitchen instead of walking around barefoot. But look, we're really looking forward to this season.

It's nice to step into a season right from the start, from week one, working together positively to kind of achieve that solidarity that we all have had in the past together that we all assume we will have together again. And, and, you know, we're really looking forward to, to 2025 together. And I think everything's, everything's feeling really good right now. The only thing that is a negative is now we have to go back to doing games in February in the Northeast. There's nothing fun about that. You're Canadian. No one wants to be in one yeah no one wants to be in minnesota at the end of february freezing chicago all those places just it's rough out there

but i do i want a snow game i want i want one snow game in my career i think that would be fun i prefer florida it's ops that makes the call in the orange ball right you don't get to choose that uh no in theory yeah ops does but you know look if there's any snow on the call in the orange ball right you don't get to choose that uh no in theory yeah ops does but you know look if there's any snow on the ground i'm going orange ball because i want that one yes man of the people it's a great moment and we all know that uh phil on the other direction i i saw that you've started doing fifa games international games um and you've been in some exotic places to do that i'm curious how different the game changes when you shift in international competition from major league

soccer and whether it's gameplay or just the you know experience of interacting with everyone like how big of a jump is it or shift is it in fifa competition yeah absolutely so i was fortunate enough to be on the promoted to the fifa list last year so this is my um second year on the list now and with that come many new experiences so working in concrete half in some of those games they're the biggest difference is all the stuff around the game there's some things in the game that are different as well um which i'll touch on in a moment but in terms of around the game you're completely out of your comfort zone in many cases so in the MLS you know all the players you're familiar with

everyone you know all the stadiums all the cities you know exactly what to expect but for example you might have a like for myself I went to U20 championships in Mexico different food different culture different hotels, different environment. You don't know how you're getting to the game. The fans are potentially more hostile. So there's all these different things around the game that you really have to prepare for. And then once you step on the field, there's a big cultural difference depending on what

teams you're doing, because different people from different parts of the world have their own certain flair or style or tendencies that may not be present day to day in the MLS. You might have a team from the Dominican Republic, let's say their national team, if they have a lot of players playing in that league, they might have a certain way of playing versus a Jamaican team, etc. One thing that I think prepared me well for that is being from Toronto. It's such a diverse city that my whole life I grew up refereeing all these different ethnic teams. You might have a Portuguese team versus a Caribbean team. And that although the universal language of soccer is the same, and we all understand how to speak that language, there's

certain nuances and certain cultural things that you need to be aware of when you're doing those games. Certain things that you would call in an MLS game or wouldn't call in a CONCACAF game, that completely changes. So it goes back to what Joe was saying. A call in one game might not be a call in another game based on the circumstances. It's very much game and scenario dependent. So it's a great experience. Definitely stepping outside your comfort zone.

But it's a good one for sure. Joe, I was going to ask you about MLS Cup because I believe you were the fourth in 2022. Is that correct? Yeah. Well, I want to ask this first. Is being a fourth official the best job or the worst job? I'm not sure you'll find anybody who says it's the best job. Okay.

Yeah. So let's just say the argument from the layman's here is, yes, you can get yelled at, but you get the front row seat and I assume a paycheck. Yeah. Not so bad, though you're just getting yelled at the whole time. Cut the tiles off your run for the day. Sure. I actually have one really close friend. He was the fish in at my wedding who thinks that would be a referee. He's not a referee.

He's not a referee. Different kind of efficient. You missed out on that one. Oh, my bad. As someone who, as someone who loves puns, I'm really upset that I missed that.

So we can rewind and take that one. Sorry, go on um he uh he is a firm believer that that would be his best role in any professional officiating capacity and I keep telling him that he should be careful what he wishes for or else I'll get him involved on our only fourth official panel which doesn't exist um no you're not a fan. You'd rather be in the, no, no, no. I will say all of us who are on the referee side of things, not assistant referees, all of us who are full-time referees, we are referees for a reason. And, and we're referees because we want to, for whatever reason,

we want to be that person in the middle to, we, we have a vision for how we can positively impact the game, how we can manage the game. There are things that you can do as a fourth official that are really, really valuable. And don't get me wrong, I don't want anyone to underestimate the value a fourth official brings. And we would rather be in the middle of a game

than on the touchline. That's just the nature of the job. It's competitive professional sports. You always want the top position. That being said, the fourth official can and has saved a referee on many occasions, especially before VAR. But even now with VAR, the fourth official is a critical component of the team.

Their job is really to look off the ball. And there are things that the VAR can't find. We had a spitting incident a couple years ago that we caught on the field with where I was the fourth and we had a referee, Alex Chilowitz, who's now over in England. And the assistant referee on the near side and far side both saw the incident as well, and we all had to put together different pieces of it. And we don't know whether the VAR would have found it or not.

I think in the end they did find evidence of it, but we wouldn't know that at the time. And those are the sorts of things where you need a whole team effort to figure this out. And then just the last thing I'll say about it is I've always compared a fourth official to a hostage negotiator. I think that there's a lot of similar skill sets there. The referee can, you know, the referee's job is to manage the game

and keep emotions, you know, keep tensions running low, keep people in an emotional state that will lead to the best, as Phil has said, the best product, the fairest outcomes for both teams. The fourth official is critical in that as well. So the ability to take heat away from the referee and discuss things in a way with coaches that leads to some sort of satisfaction is a critical component of being a fourth official that can not make or break a game necessarily, but it can make a game for sure.

I appreciate that answer because that is so much more insight than any of us would know. And I promise though, I'm going to seem a lighthearted question. I do appreciate the seriousness. Of course. I guess I'll turn to Philip on this one.

As the fourth official, when you're getting yelled at for a call you didn't make, do you ever get to a point where it's just like, dude, it wasn't me. I don't know. I don't think, I don't know. Like, how do you kind of interact with you? I know, I know.

I get it. No, I get it. No. Yeah, that's a really good question. I think the way I liken a fourth official is that you're kind of, Joe said hostage negotiator, but I think you're actually, I think you're sort of a therapist.

So I think that's how I approach it, honestly. And I just try to, you never want to throw the referee under the bus because it could be, one, it could be you the next weekend, and two, it just undermines your crew. You're part of the crew. When someone's yelling at me, something that I'll do a lot of the time is they're screaming, they're going off. I go up to someone in a calm voice.

I'm just like, why are you yelling? What's wrong? And they're just like so confused sometimes. They're like, why is this guy talking like this? And then when you start talking to someone very calmly and they start yelling, then they sort of bring themselves down to match your level. So I'm very much like talk to me what's your what what are you upset about they tell me i understand that's it i'm just i'm listening to what they're saying i'm hearing their concerns a lot of times these

people just want to be heard and from a coach's perspective i can understand there's huge amounts of pressure you don't want to be on the hot seat because your team is losing maybe you had a string of bad games you need to let that frustration out. As a player, many things made me frustrated too. So I just listened to them. Nothing's going to change. I'm not going to go out there and take the whistle and, oh, you said that? Okay, here's your free kick. There's nothing they can do. It's a useless exercise. I'm there say i understand i listen to them they're heard that's it i once saw a fourth at an mls next tournament match a coach who had gotten something wrong clearly like what they were yelling about and went to the coach and said do you want to

admit when you're wrong no okay then we'll like let's be done with this and i was like oh whoa i didn't know you were allowed to do that that's fun. I think we're all looking forward to get the season started, get into the warm months so that Phil doesn't have to complain about the weather. But hopefully we sneak Joe in. Maybe the calendar flip and we'll get Joe like a full five months of snow games. See, then I'll start complaining. Yeah, he'll do every outdoor Montreal and Minnesota game for December, January, and February. He's already signed up for it.

But appreciate you guys taking the time to chat with us uh i think people are going to find it really interesting and i hope people enjoy watching you out on the field again once again in 2025 so thanks again for joining us and uh let's do this again sometime thanks so much guys this is wonderful it's always great to to get to talk football generally and and about the league and everything else so thank you yeah appreciate it guys this is really good as joe said it gives people a different perspective behind the whistle if you will of what we see how we interact with the game so thanks for having us and we'll do this again sometime yeah i appreciate you guys humanizing now i know how to shut down time i i appreciate you guys for doing this but it is more fun to

just yell at an anonymous person. Now, I like you guys. So this time. Love it.