SoccerWise - Promotion & Relegation USL Special w/Jose Bautista (Vegas Lights), Bobby Dulle (Phoenix Rising) & Simon Evans (The Soccer Buisness)

Episode Date: March 20, 2025

Unless you've been living under a rock this week you know USL passed a historic vote to push forward on adding promotion & relegation to the league. David & Tom jump on with some of the people living this process to get behind the scenes on how this happened, what it means, and how it could all work. They talk to guests with their different viewpoints first owner of Las Vegas Lights someone who had a vote Jose Bautista, then Phoenix Rising Team President/GM Bobby Dulle, and finally business soccer journalist Simon Evans.  7:03 Jose Bautista (Las Vegas Lights)27:47 Bobby Dulle President (Phoenix Rising)50:32 Simon Evans (https://thesoccerbusiness.com/newsletter-landing-page/)   Soccerwise Live 2pm ET Every Tuesday/Wednesday/Thursday on Youtube/Twitch/Twitter

Hey everybody, welcome back to Soccer Wise. David Goss and Tommy Scoops with you for a special episode here on this Thursday. We wanted to dig in to promotion and relegation with the news coming out from USL that the owners have voted to continue to move forward in figuring out how to put this in place going towards 2028. We will get into the vagueness of what I just said for you, but we wanted to do a special episode for you. So we've got three huge guests coming up. We've got Jose Bautista, the owner and chairman of Las Vegas Lights, also known as Joey Bats

as Tommy helps me with. Bobby Dooley who is the president and GM of Phoenix Rising and then Simon Evans who just this week launched a soccer business newsletter almost solely focused on things like stadium building and expansion teams and broadcast rights and all the things that are wrapped into how you put Pro-Rel together. So those three interviews coming up here. Simon Cleats. We will be back live tomorrow at 10 a.m. Eastern time. We're going to have our Concordia Nations League recap. So we'll be talking U.S. and Canada. We will have your MLS Week in preview. Tom breaking news about a DP coming in Houston.

So we will talk about all of that. And then we're actually going to have another USL guest as the Oakland Roots are on the verge of selling out their first game at the Oakland Coliseum so we're going to have a guest on from there and probably talk some pro rel as well but Tom we thought we were going to be off today soccer has no sleep in North America and we had to come on and sort of dig into this news and what this can look like. Hashtag no days off hashtag grind hashtag ton grind. Hashtag tonal vision David Goss. Yeah of course this

is monumental. I believe our good friend Paul Tenorio broke the news I don't know 30 minutes after we got off our show. Classic Paul. And an excellent news break and this is potentially a monumental day in North American soccer. I'm very excited about the possibilities. Like you said, vagueness is a key term because this is, there's nothing set, there's nothing totally decided. There's a lot of details to work out. I'm choosing to take this all in good faith from USL. I know that they really desperately want to do this.

They want to figure this out. From my own reporting on this like last early this like late spring, early summer, I thought that this was going to come to a vote. Sources told me, and I believe it was Jeff Ruder and Paul at the time, told us this is coming to a vote and we're only bringing it to a vote when we know it's going to pass. Like hey, we think that this is about to pass. And then in the week or two between the reporting and push comes to shove time, all of a sudden it wasn't up for vote because they didn't think that they

had the votes. And then we asked Jose Bautista about this in the interview. So I know that this is something that's been discussed for a long time. This is the only way I think to actually really push MLS in any tangible way is promotion relegation. So I'm very excited that this has passed. There are a lot of details to figure it out. It's a very difficult thing to implement, but they are on the right track. And again, I hope that this goes seamless

and it happens within the next few years. It's funny because we got on today, we did the interviews and you're talking to people and you're talking about this thing that happened this week. And it's like, but we've all spent all our lives talking about this, right? This has been a constant conversation in the North American soccer sphere. You, everyone here is fully aware of people who think it is the only solution to increasing the

game and growing the game and you have many people as well who think there's no chance that it works. And so I think we've all been stuck in the conversation for the last few years because you have the extremes on both sides. And then this news comes out and having conversations with people over the last week myself and thinking about this, what it feels like is sort of what you said, which is like, it's kind of the only way to take a jump.

I take even out the MLS side and just say, for USL, how did they continue to progress as a league? And that's where this jump comes in and creating the Division 1 and changing things. And I think what I've come out to where I sit right now without knowing any details, any details, is that it's probably doable because the gap's not that huge across the leagues and because you have teams that are so local based that the whole conversation around this is like who gets the 500 million dollar TV deal and it's like that stuff doesn't really exist so you know if Louisville sells out a game and has local sponsorship whether

they're in USL Division 1 and I and I swear that I will not function if the names don't change. There is nothing I hate more than the name change to the USL Championship Division 1 and now we're talking League 1 and now we're talking about Division 1. Just laying it out, it's Division 1, so number is 1. The next level is Championship, there's no number. The third tier is 1 and then the fourth tier is championship. There's no number the third tier is is one and then the fourth year is And just like the sole focus on England with that of like this how they this is how it's done It's like then why don't we call it Syria and seri B? Like what are we doing here?

So that part I want completely changed But I think that there is like a way for this to work and the way for that to work of like not having these huge revenue changes for teams sort of lets you get into The real world of this and then learn about it Like I think it's the type of thing where if it happens in three or four years What it looks like year one year five and year twelve could be completely different And that's the hope is in an open setup and ownership group can see success at the third level, move it up and say, yeah, let's build a bigger stadium.

Let's invest more. Let's go out and spend more on scouting and all of that. And your hope is that it pushes all of it to the top. And I think there is a real opening for this. You take away some of the jeopardy by having a floor, right? This is not an open system. We are not talking about being relegated down into NPSL and dropping down into semi pro ranks It is all fully professional and contained but it changes it a bit and I think the dream scenario of a 20 or 25 team league

Where half the teams on the final week of the season or the final two months of the season are fighting for a playoff spot The other half are fighting to stay out of a relegation playoff Then you have relegation playoff games while you have playoff games so do or die games more and more for teams to bring people in. I think a lot of that should be really exciting. I think a lot of it's really interesting but not having any specifics around it makes it all a little bit harder to dig into as well which is why we wanted to have these guests on. Jose Bautista he had a vote he was in the room you

talk about Bobby Dooley, you know, working with his ownership group to lay out their plan, see where they want to stand. These are all people who are living and breathing this. And that's why we wanted to put this episode together and bring them on. So let's go now to our interview with the owner and chairman of the Las Vegas Lights, Jose Bautista.

It is a historic week in soccer in North America. It's a historic week for the USL with the vote and announcement that they will start moving forward on plans to bring promotion relegation into the league in conjunction with the movement to gain Division I status as well. And an opportunity for us here at Soccer Vice to talk to one of the decision makers, one of the people who's in the room getting to put a vote in and getting to talk about this and think about this.

And it's a honor for us to have on the show the owner and chairman of the Las Vegas Lights, Jose Bautista, as Tom likes to know him, Joey Batch. Jose, thanks for taking the time. Yeah, thanks for having me. It is, as I said, a big week. it is a big moment for people on the outside for the inside. What does this week mean for your organization? What does it mean for you? Well it means that there's a lot of work to do right but in general for North

America for soccer fans and for soccer in general I think it's a monumental step forward right it's about growing I think it's a monumental step forward, right? It's about growing the game. It's about having the highest level of soccer available in the country in more markets and having, you know, different flavor, you know, with the structure of promo relegation. It hasn't been done in North America before and I think it's going to bring a lot of attention and a lot of

Increased fandom from it. So I'm excited about what the future is gonna hold for all of us and we got a lot of work to do When you Obviously came into deciding to buy a professional soccer team and come into the professional soccer world Of course originally your background baseball into the professional soccer world. Of course, originally your background baseball. Was this something you always thought you wanted to see or was it approached to you and have you had a thought process through it? I mean, I definitely had ambitious plans

to make this the best club in USL championship, right? I, as you guys know from my baseball days, I wasn't going for singles. So, you know, and I bring the same mentality to the owner's chair. And, you know, and I bring the same mentality to the owner's chair. And you know, you definitely saw the red, the tea leaves and acknowledged that this was a way, right? It's just how fast does the league want to go and get there and the other owners, to

be quite honest. And I think it's a bold step, but at the same time, a reflection of the alignment between the league and the owners and the fact that everybody wants to move forward and move forward now. I don't think anybody wants to miss the boat with the World Cup and also with the Olympics and hiding the tension that's gonna be around that in the game of soccer. And everybody knows how much popular amongst, you know, the youth the game has gotten in the last 10 years. So I think there's gonna be a huge influx of talent. Everybody has been paying attention if you're a soccer lover on how the US men's national team is doing in the progress there. And you

know the feeder system to that is the youth North American soccer player pool right and it's a reflection of how much better the players are getting on this side of the pond. So excited about just growing the game in general. So I know that this has been long discussed, the idea of promotion relegation. I reported on it last year that it seemed like a vote was about to happen and then after further discussions it seemed like you guys weren't going to have the votes and that kind of was pulled. And now it's coming through so can you talk me

through what those discussions were like i mean even going through last year or whatever timeline that you want to have how did you guys i guess convinced the skeptics that yes the time is right let's have this vote and and let's say yes well in time will tell right if we execute properly and we do what we need to do but so

that remains to be determined, but I would like to, if I was a betting man, which I'm not, I would bet on us that we're gonna go out there and do what it takes to come out on top and execute. So, you know, the timing was different. Sometimes when things are meant to be, that's when they happen.

And for us as a league and as owners, it was this year and it passed with super majority, which is great. It was very well received amongst everybody. And really it was driven by both sides. It wasn't really like one side was kind of forcing and nudging the other one to make a decision. So everybody was very well aligned and the vote was a reflection of that.

Last year, would you have been one of the teams that voted yes if a vote came to pass? I want to say that I'm a little bit more aggressive. And I have high hopes. And I think we either got to do it or let somebody else try. So I would have probably voted yes as well. But again, hypotheticals doesn't matter.

We had the real vote and a passive majority and we're excited about the future. One of the things we've heard is this is contingent on that division one status and creating that next division. Where does that stand right now? Where do you look at it and say, what are maybe the roadblocks or the process towards getting to having that division one

and adding that third division? Yeah, and it would only make sense if we do have three levels, right? With two levels, it'd be kind of, I don't know. There would be no much point to it. I think the biggest hurdle is stadiums. We have a stadium need across the league and I think that's going to be one of the requirements by US Soccer to be sanctioned Division 1. So that's the only thing but we got the owners that are trying to get there and I think everybody's focused on figuring out in the local markets how to get new stadiums with the other requirements that US Soccer is going to have but it's early. We don't really know what all of that means just yet so I wouldn't want to speak out of turn and get ahead of it.

But I know for a fact the stadiums is the main one for Las Vegas themselves. Is that your goal to be able to be in a setup to be able to be one of the First Division teams? Oh, 100 percent. Mike, we got pedal to the metal right now and we were already in discussions with the city and bunch of other, you know other interested parties in a new stadium conversation. So this just makes us go a little faster, but it was already in our plans,

whether division one or promo relegation was a factor or not to have a new stadium. So our efforts are 100% to figure that out. Do you find in the conversations with local government and maybe entities that are less soccer knowledgeable that this changes the conversation with them for a stadium push? 100% and it has already changed.

The cadence of some conversations and people understand it very quickly once you break it down for them and kind of outline the landscape of North American soccer and how the leagues work. It's a very easy digestible conversation and once people kind of get a feel for it, then it gets everybody even more interested. On the outside, my view would be promotion you know, promotion relegation is the way to actually challenge Major League Soccer for USL, USL Championship, USLD1, whatever this kind of

comes to be. Is that the thinking among owners, among stakeholders, among the people discussing this and making these decisions that the best way to challenge Major League Soccer is to be different and that being different the biggest way is promotion relegation? Not necessarily challenge. I think be different. There's room for both right uh... this country's probably one of the largest

in the world when it comes to be in a territory that's offers played there's plenty of space and room for both leagues uh... and and and different big markets to be able to sustain both so uh... i don't think challenges is the right word. I think it's growing the sport is a better perspective to it. And yeah, we we're going to enjoy being able to grow the game more and have pathways, right? From locally for the kids from when they're playing in little leagues like, you know, little kickers and others, and then go all the way up to the top division level of the sport, just remaining local is going to be huge as well.

So you know, the chance of becoming a professional soccer player for a local kid now are huge, right? Because you see the clear pathway from those youth soccer academies to an academy team of a team like ours, whether it's U-19, U-21, and then the big clubs. So, and you don't have to leave home in order to achieve that. I think that that's an incredible value proposition for local markets that we're going to be able to have. One of the conversations always around promotion relegation is, you know, in England, they call it parachute payments. When you drop down revenue sharing, of course, is more common across American sports leagues, but now you're going to have multiple divisions.

USL has the added side of some teams have come in as expansion teams at the league one level or at the championship level and paid different numbers. How do you sort of work as an owner with other owners and end up in situations where if you want to push things and other teams don't, where it all falls in between and how everything supports together but also is competitive? Listen, those things will get figured out on the way. I think there's a lot of complexity and the scenario you just painted, right? I don't think anybody's motivated necessarily on parachute payments on the early contracts or anything like that.

It's just about bringing the highest level of game to the markets, right? Over time, everything else will get worked out. How specific or how tight is that 20-28 timeline? Again, only time will tell. Once U.S. soccer really gives every single team and market their requirements for the collective as a league to be sanctioned top division, it'll, we'll be able to looks like and playoff games and you know, top division against lower division teams and the idea that you could have sort of every team in a competitive setup, you know, as you get towards the end of the year,

whether it's trying to qualify or fight off relegation or whatever it is, do you yourself have a dream setup for this or something that you've thought of specifically when this gets rolled out? I've thought about many scenarios and I don't know necessarily how I feel about it. Is there one team that goes down and one that comes up? Is there one plus one more in the playoff setting?

Is there two and two? I don't know. We'll see where we end up also in the amount of teams that are in the league, right? Because we know for a fact that you need at least 12 teams to be a top division league. But I think everybody would like for them to be 14 or 16 to start.

I don't think anybody wants to have the bare minimum. And then we'll see what championship as a second division ends up looking like on the amount of teams. And everybody can pretty much agree with that league one as a third division will have the most amount of teams. So I think it depends, right, on how the structure looks like on how many teams and how many in each league to see how many go

up and down, but it's gonna be interesting for sure and it's exciting games and you can just, you know, I get goosebumps thinking about you know worst case scenario you're in one of those positions where you're fighting for not being relegated and you got it's it's exciting and it's this brings a different dynamic to North American professional sports that doesn't exist today. Yeah and the timing of this is super interesting obviously in North America right now you have the Club World Cup in 25 the World cup the big one in in twenty six and then the olympics and everything else is going on with both the men's and

women's game in this country how much did the timeline of particularly around the world cup impact this decision and like a now or never i don't know if it was not never but it definitely helped there are some things that happen globally around soccer that make you or incentivize you to move a little faster. And no doubt the World Cup is one of them. Everybody's going to be paying attention. Everybody's going to be watching. And it just brings that resurgence of the love for the beautiful game to the top for the whole nation. And you know, we, a rising tide lifts all boats, right?

We don't want to miss that moment. And I think the timing is perfect for our league to be taking these steps. As someone who's in the room, as someone who sat with this for maybe longer than fans have sort of, you know, known about it, especially this week with the announcement, what's something that you think

that fans should be considering or thinking about or something that maybe you think goes under the radar? Just you know how much more is gonna be at stake, right? And how the level of competition is gonna be increased. We might not get there on day one, right? When you look at the title level of MLS versus our top division, you know, eventually I think will be more similar. But the incentive to put a winning product on the pitch is significantly different. It's going to be significantly different in our league versus others in general across North America, generally speaking. You know, nobody

can dispute that MLS is a great league, they have a great product and they're doing great things. We're just gonna be slightly different and that brings a different level of conviction from the fans and then engagement from the fans because there is going to be a lot more to lose if you're not really pushing and thriving for excellence year over year.

There's no place for complacency when you're structured with promotion relegation and I think the fans are going to enjoy that. Is there any part of you that wishes or at least thinks about maybe during your playing career if there was say promotion relegation? I know it's a foreign concept for American sports in general, particularly baseball, but this brings up some of those thoughts. Yeah, it'd be interesting to utilize this model for NBA, NFL, MLB or NHL. It's kind of crazy. It would, again, would you see situations like you had for a number of years with the

Tampa Bay Rays, the Pittsburgh Pirates, youates, the Oakland A's where sometimes it is perceived as an outsider. There's absolutely no attempt to go for a championship. I think it would change that. I'm not suggesting that it'll happen. I don't see it happening. But I'm glad we're the only ones that right now are committed to doing so.

It's been really cool from the outside to watch you take this team over and, and, you know, sort of run things as a former athlete into the ownership side of things. What have you learned? What have you sort of experienced making that shift and now being the owner of Las Vegas? I mean, how many, how many, how much more time do we have? We're on your time, brother. Yeah, we don't own anything.

So we've got nothing to do. I'm learning every single time, brother. Yeah, we don't own anything, so we've got nothing to do. I'm learning every single day, brother. And my point of view and perspective has changed a lot. As a fan, as a former player, and now as an owner, it's just completely different. But you get a deeper understanding of what makes a professional sports franchise a sustainable business, right? And you just try to make sure that you're the one providing that stage for the players on one side to go out there and show the world what they can do.

And then for the fans to come and enjoy it and create great memories. And that dynamic is very, very fun to be behind. It takes a lot of, you know, mental juggling and a lot of spinning plates simultaneously and a lot of determination to kind of make it work. It's not an easy job, but I'm enjoying the heck out of it and I'm looking forward to the challenges not only to continue to grow within Las Vegas, but again be a great representation of the USL, USL top division, and just be an organization

that the whole Las Vegas community can be proud of. It's a whole lot of fun and it's a great challenge, so I'm enjoying it. It was exciting last year. Western Conference Finals run. What was your experience being the owner, but not being a player, watching that and sort of living through that nerve racking man? I mean, we beat Sacramento and penalty kicks. Yeah.

We barely squeak one out against New Mexico on a defensive blunder that they had in a great goal by Corey Bennett. You know, our former striker that's now in Kuwait, continuing his great career. It was nerve-racking. 90 minutes of chewing my nails. Not that I would recommend that to anybody, but yeah, it was fun. And then we dropped the heartbreaker in Colorado Springs on the conference championship game where you know as they say and then football unlucky bounce lucky for them it went right to one of their midfielders I think off of a set piece and and he just had a clear shot and took advantage

of it but that's how it goes sometimes it was exciting we hit the post a few times so today it was a crazy game and they deserve to To get that win that night You know, it sucked getting that far and not being able to to play for the the Cup But at the same time coming from only three wins Mm-hmm and getting that far and especially taking over late in the offseason of January 6 with opening day on March 9th and having zero players, no coaches and only four people on staff was a huge lift to say the least. It was a spring to open in night and we were able to pull it off thanks to a lot of hard-working people that got involved

and did their job at an extremely high level. So now we're hoping to bring that kind of level of games with excitement and games that matter deep into the season and hopefully play up runs on a year over year basis. So now we got to rinse and repeat and then figure out what the formula is for that to happen. It's hard in USL though. There's a lot of churn, there's a lot of change. Of course, the big one for you, changing headcoats. A lot of people watching from afar, Antonio Notcherino,

one of the big names, Dennis Sanchez has had a ton of success as well. What's the expectation in 25? What's the feeling right now for you? Well, that doesn't change. We're always striving for success and excellence. Antonio knows that and that comes with added pressure and accountability. And he welcomed the challenge from day one. He's not afraid of that. He's played at a high level in Europe. You know, it doesn't get any worse than that and that's part of what we see in him not only as a young coach that's got a ton of potential, he elevates this league to another level having played in top flight Europe for a number of years. When it comes to coaching, there's a lot of different styles, right?

We love the fact that he brings a developmental aspect to get a bunch of young and super talented kids and make them ready for those jumps. But also, he's gonna be able to bring that grit, determination, the not giving up, the fighting to the last breath kind of style of game that is very enjoyable to watch And you know, your team is not giving an inch At any given time so, you know mistakes are gonna happen. Like we just had in our second game and we we lost a very Important game against New Mexico being a conference game, but it's early on

and we have a lot of work to do. So it takes a little bit of time for the guys to get adjusted and get appointed to a new style, the new systems, and also just coming off of training camp, we had five or six new players are gonna be in the starting lineup and some of them haven't even showed it showed up yet because of visa situations so they haven't really been able to gel well but we're very very confident in this season and excited up to see the group get together and start playing on a consistent basis as a starting 11 and see where we go. There are very few professional sports teams that can say that their owner has

an Olympic medal. Las Vegas Lights is one of them. We appreciate you taking the time to join us here to talk us through this. We're excited to watch from afar this season and as promotion and relegation comes on board and all the different turns that come over the next few years. So thank you for joining us here at Soccer Wise. Thank you guys. Appreciate it. Anytime. Just give me a shot. It is a big week in the history of soccer in North America, soccer in America, and especially in the USL with the announcement coming out on the vote

to push things forward on the road to creating promotion relegation across the USL. And we want to get as many opinions and views as we can and I think someone who's going to bring a lot of insight is the president of Phoenix Horizon, someone who's been around USL for a very long time as well. Bobby Dooley, Bobby thanks for taking the time. Thanks for having me on David. It is a big week for everyone on the outside. You are on the inside.

Talk me through what the experience has been just this week and it finally coming to light and everyone else sort of coming in and the vote passing and what your experience has been around this. Yeah, the discussions at the, you know, at the ownership level, at the league level have been going on for a few years now and kudos to the owners.

Kudos to the owners, kudos to the leaders, Paul, Jeremy, the Papadakis is at the league office. Ambitious, right? They want to continue to push the sport forward, push our league, push the clubs forward. And yesterday was a big day to finally announce it. And for us as an organization, we've always been built on competition and ambition. We've done some pretty lofty things in our history, signing Didier Drogba in our first ever season. So for us, this continues to raise the level, to push the standards higher and higher. And we're fully supportive of the introduction and promotion relegation and excited to see

what comes of it. There's a lot of work to be done over the next couple years, but it's exciting to be a part of a group of people, of clubs, of communities that are ambitious, wanna keep taking the sport higher and higher. When you've been around this organization in almost a decade now in different names, but mainly Phoenix Rising and of course,

around the sport in this country and the league, did you think this was always the logical ending? Have you gone through ebbs and flows? What have been some of the things maybe that convinced you that this is where things should move? I don't know if it's the ending really even, right? Because it's so fluid, the sport continues to grow. As you know, in the United States,

soccer is relatively young comparatively to the other sports. So what I know is, it's a it's a group of people and organizations that want to continue to grow the sport. And how do you grow the sport? How do you attract more eyeballs? How do you attract more sponsors? How do you attract more media coverage? And I think having, you know, more games of consequence,

raising the stakes for each and every match, that that's intriguing, right? And for that, that that helps us get more people in the seats, if that helps us get more coverage and more exposure, and also allows other communities. As we know with the World Cup coming, or maybe the Women's World Cup, and a couple years thereafter, the Olympics, soccer's at the forefront, and the growth is incredible.

So now you have more communities that could launch professional teams and have an opportunity to bring it to the highest level. And that's exciting, because that means the sport's growing at the grassroots levels and different communities. And what this sport has done for me personally growing up and the lessons it's taught me,

and now professionally I'm fortunate enough to work here at Phoenix Rising, and the memories, the relationships, the highs, the lows that have been shared with our fan base and the people that have worn the jersey. It's been exciting. So if more people have that opportunity to have those highs and lows, to me I look at it as a really positive step forward for soccer as a whole across the United States.

The owners, you said, it's a big part of all of this. It's the people driving all of it. It's a big part of all of this it's the people driving all of it it's the people investing in all of it. In your role discussing with your owners what were the conversations like as they sort of wrapped their heads around this? It's a standards raiser right like we all have to continue to raise a standard whether that be on the broadcast whether that be an investment in our youth development pathway, the facilities, the front office staffing, the soccer ops staff, so the quality of player, how we recruit players. It's only going to elevate all of those things and push us all to another level.

It's encouraging long-term investment in club development and hopefully that's something you see across the league and when you do that you attract more development and hopefully, you know, that's something you see across the league and when you do that, you attract more players and hopefully start moving players abroad and other places. So for us, it was we've always kind of pushed the limits, I would say. Again, signing some players and we've, you know, the type of facility is the way we take care of our players as an organization. And we pride ourselves on that. And you're seeing more and more of that across the USL landscape.

And you know, people aren't going to have a choice now. They got to continue to invest. And that's a that's a big commitment. And that's why I really applaud the ownership groups across the league. You sit in a unique position and sitting above the business side of things coming from the playing soccer background and having been GM and then promoted into the overall president.

So I wanna talk about that on the field because you mentioned it, like the styles of player. As you conceptualize it now, from a roster building point of view, from a soccer point of view on the field, does this change the way you build teams? Does it change the way you structure contracts? Like how does this affect the play on the field do you think? I think that your roster is going to have to continue to get

deeper and deeper. This league is really competitive. How it's changed and grown in the nine years I've been here and you see the level of player that's being, you know, whether that's be the youth players that are, you know, introduced into this league or the players that are moving from other leagues into the USL, the level that there's no layups, man. It's tough every week, week in and week out. It's a really competitive, physically taxing. The level of coaching has increased greatly. So you've got to be prepared each and every game. And in order to do that, you're going to deal with, you know, injuries.

Now, when the quality of player increases, you're going to have more guys out on international duty. So, you're dealing with those challenges. So, you have to be prepared. So, you know, we have a guy here now in Pomeducah. And with respect to all the coaches before him at Phoenix Rising, his belief in the youth system is unlike anything I've ever seen and how much he wants to develop.

So for us, we've really put a lot of emphasis on the youth side of things and the relationship, and our coaching staff is out at our academy games every weekend getting clips from all of them. So for us, I think that that's probably a little bit of a more, it's a larger emphasis on our side. It's always been important, but we're really driving that here in our market. Then as we grow out our soccer ops, whether that be analysts, whether that be scouting

network, whether that be some of the backend stuff that we're looking to try to make sure that we always can just kind of find that little edge and recruiting players and retaining players. So I don't know if there's one specific thing on our side of thing that we have to do different, but I will tell you this, that you have to have a deep roster and be able to compete because things are gonna come up. And when every game matters,

it's not just about getting into the playoffs, it's about staying up or going down. It makes it that more exciting, I think, for everyone involved. You hit my interest. So I'm going to go youth development. One more question, then we can move on from there. One person once said to me, one of the advantages that should exist in North American soccer for youth development, or specifically in the U.S., is with no relegation, there is no risk to play young players. And so you should do it because you can,

and then they can develop and grow. That risk now in a pro-rel system comes back in. Do you think it positively or negatively affects young players and their opportunities and the settings they go into? Because then of course, the reverse argument we've heard for years is, the higher stakes creates better players.

Yeah, no, it's a good conversation. I mean, I think you could talk on either side of the coin there. For us, you know, it's about the environment that they're in each and every day. And to me, if you create a challenging, competitive environment where they have to come in and compete, and you're introducing youth kids.

I mean, we have a dozen or so kids from our academy every day since preseason have been in our environment and they got to compete every day. So I think everyone's different. How do people respond to pressure situations? And Palma Duca will tell me there isn't a thing such as pressure. But I would tell you, I can understand the side of the coin that says, you know what, we just got to get in at the end of this season so you can find 20 minutes here, 20 minutes there.

But for us as a club, it doesn't matter if you're the highest paid player, you're a young kid on the roster that's on Academy contract, you have to come in and compete every day and that's the environment that we want and that's why we've had success over the years. We've had some depth, we've spent a little bit more on our rosters than a lot of clubs. And that's so that every day you have to compete and nothing is given. And for us, whether that's a youth player or not,

those are the, that's the environment we want here in Phoenix Rising. And if you're good enough, you're old enough. And that's the mindset we have. And we signed a 16 yearold a couple of weeks ago. We gave another 17-year-old played two weeks ago. You've seen it across this league with some of the players that are happening.

So I think it's going to continue to be a point of emphasis as academies get stronger and stronger across the country, as coaching gets better and better at the younger ages, you're going to see more kids that are ready to play at younger ages. And it's really exciting to be a part of. So the announcement on the vote this week and all of what we've heard,

especially out of the USL president, Paul McDonough, around this has been that the drive behind this has been connected to the creation of a new division one and USL pushing into division one. What does that look like from a club point of view? What is this potential and whether it's 2028 or not mean for Phoenix rising? Yeah, no, it's it's that's exciting, right? Again, from from day one, our ownership group put the flag in the ground and said that we want to take this to facilities, training facilities. So to have what we're working towards is a connected three-tiered system to roll out in a couple years. For us, we're excited to be a part of that.

And again, it pushes us as a club. When you see the Louisville's, the Colorado Springs of the world that are building bigger and better facilities, that challenges us as well. And I love that. It holds us all accountable. So for us as a club, we're going to continue each and every day to try to get better. And we want to be a top performing organization. We want to be an organization that's recognized, that people want to come and be a part of, whether that's coaches, whether that's players, whether that's backroom staff, whether that's front office staff,

to be an environment where you can be challenged, but you can grow and you can develop. And I'm humble enough to admit that there's bigger and better opportunities out there. And I want to help every person that comes through the doors here to get those opportunities. And the only way we do that is we as a club continue to be challenged.

And so I think that's what this does, ultimately. And you know, I'm excited to be a part of a connected system here in a couple years and ultimately looking at every game that matters. For the Division One setup, have you been given clear ideas, whether it's from the league or whatnot, of what the benchmarks are for a club to get there? Do you apply? Like, do you know how it looks to finally decide who and what needs to be in that division one?

I think we'll gain some clarity over these next couple of months. Obviously a lot of conversations happening internally on that front. I mean, publicly it's out there. You can find the standards that it takes, the time zones, the stadium capacities, the net worths of owners, all those things are out there.

So I think those are some benchmarks that we all are looking towards. But of course, as Paul has said, as the league has said as a whole, as we know collectively as a group, there's a lot of work to be done. But we planted a flag in the ground yesterday. We have a North Star that we're working towards.

And the exciting part is there's a collective group that's working towards that and realizes it. And we can see the excitement that came on yesterday's announcement and the amount of phone calls and text messages and media outlets reaching out to us as a club. It's exciting, right? So we have to take this energy and excitement and now it's time to put the work in

and get to that point where we can have that connected three tiered system. And it's gonna take a little bit of time and some work behind the scenes, but I think knowing this group and knowing what we're striving for, I think it's all possible. Do you have an idea in your ideal world

of what that system looks like in terms of? You know now I'm starting to rack my brain and go through all the different ways that promotion relegation works with you know Playoffs between the top division in the lower division. Yeah, I know automatic. It's a good It's a good question, right and again. I was I was meeting with Another media outlet here that of course we live in a really crowded marketplace where you've got NCAA sports, you have NBA, you have it all, MLB. Sometimes they're a little bit more old school in their coverage and traditional sporting outlets and asking those questions. What does it mean and how does this work?

I have my own personal thoughts, but what this is this is, is this is gonna be a group, this is gonna be sporting committees, this is gonna be subcommittees of ownership groups, of working through that, whether that's a playoff system, whether that's one team, two teams, those details, it's too early to speak on. I think all of us collectively in the ecosystem would all have some different ideas,

but ultimately it's gonna come from kind of a collective conversation, and we'll see and we'll see where it goes. But ultimately, no matter how it's done, whether it's two teams, three teams going up, whether there's a playoff for three through six at the end to go up, to go down, it's going to be intriguing. It's going to be exciting. And I think that's what appeals to me the most is we got to be ready, right? We can't go into a Saturday night and think, you know what, we're already in playoff contention,

we feel good about it. So for the details, that's the stuff that needs some time. But I know that this group, now that it's out there, we need everyone to hold us accountable and keep moving forward. Is there a feeling that if there is a division one that CONCACAF qualification should be tied into it and then that becomes another cherry or sort of carrot at the top?

I would hope so. Absolutely as a club, we were fortunate enough to finally put the star over our crest a couple of years ago and I would have loved at our level. Maybe I'm naive, but I believe that some of the leagues and teams that are getting qualification outside of the United States already, I'm very confident in the level of play and the teams throughout the USL Championship can compete at that level. I'm hopeful that that's a component there because there's nothing more than I would love to do that.

I mean, we had a friendly the other day against Calvary. They came down here and their season starts in April, but they played in Champions League, what, early January. So I'm confident in what we can do as a club and I'm hopeful as a league. And I know that's something that would be, that would mean a lot to the league and the clubs within the league if that was an opportunity that presented itself to the team that came out on top in Division I. What should fans be looking out for? What should fans be thinking about that maybe, you know, you think isn't being as noticed about this, whether what makes it hard, what makes it important, what sort of goes through your mind that you think people

should know when it comes to creating promotion relegation in USL and in the United States? Maybe I am. I'm impatient. So maybe fans I would imagine are going to be impatient, right? Like you just asked and like I wish I had the answer for, these details, right? As much as we all want it to happen and be ready to go in 2026 and here we go, we got three tiers, and this is what

it means, here's the prize money, here's up and down, here's the Champions League spot, whatever it may be, it's going to take some time. So I think that's the most important thing. Like, obviously there's a strong tailwind right now and we should ride it, but there's work to be done. And so I think it's, I would just say we all have to be a little bit patient.

We all have some different ideas on what this is going to look like within our own ecosystem. So for us to gather, to get around the table, to discuss that, come up with a product in a competition, in a structure that makes sense for everyone. It's gonna take a little time. So that's what I would ultimately say is exercise a little patience, which I have zero of.

So I'm chomping the bit as well. What's the experience in all of this? You mentioned all the committees that need to happen. Being someone who's part of a club that wants to win against the other clubs and then having to go and sort of work With those other clubs off the field so you have playoff series you have rivalry matches You have us open cup matches and then you go into a conference room a week or two later And you have to sit and sort of be on the same team I'd like to think I've matured a little bit. I probably haven't, for sure.

But I'm an emotional guy. I'm a competitive guy. I want to win every time. But ultimately, it's just taking a step back and realizing that we're all doing this. There's no secrets. No one's reinventing the wheel here. The success of everyone in this league only helps all of us.

So what's been really cool since I've been here is kind of the collective nature, whether that be on some of the business ideas. I have a call here with seven, eight other presidents and leaders this afternoon where we're sharing, I mean, it's all business stuff. Hey, what are you doing for CRM Systems? How are you rolling out season ticket packages? We all want everyone to succeed. We all want full stadiums.

We want a great broadcast and the more that we can have that, it makes the product more attractive. Ultimately, it's a group of people that, of course, 90 minutes when it goes, Conno Smith. We're playing Conno Smith on Saturday night. What a great guy. What a good person. We've had conversations. I don't know that we've ever shared a room together, but we've talked to each other on the phone and helped each other out as he

was starting up in Rhode Island and asking questions. So I'm excited to see Kano. Do I want to smash him on Saturday night? Absolutely. But I'll probably try to have a beer with him afterwards and wish him luck and move forward. So ultimately we're all in this together. We're all part of, just like you, we want to see the sport grow and thrive and we see the passion, the energy that, you know, when we travel outside of the United States and that's starting to come here in the United States in a lot of different communities and markets. So for us, we've, as a club, we've hosted ownership groups, potential ownership groups, existing clubs. We'll always open our doors to those people to see how we're doing it.

And the same thing has happened on our end, whether we go to places that want to show us what we're doing. And ultimately, at the end of the day, we're all competitors, but we also want to see this sport grow. And I think that's what is unique about what we're doing. Last one before I get you out of here, let's talk a little soccer. Two games into the season, new coach and Paul Moduca, friend of the show, favorite of the show, Joe Larry on the broadcast.

So everyone's always watching. What's the expectations? What's the feeling around the club and what 2025 can look like? The expectations have been the same since day one, whether it be any coach before Paul or Paul himself, we want to win, but we want to win. We want to be an entertaining team to watch.

We want to, again, this is the entertainment business as well, so we want to attract fans and come out and be exciting. So we know we're a young team. We have a lot of young players. We know some new coaching staff, new parts, but ultimately expectations haven't changed as an organization. We want to be one of the flagship teams in this league

on and off the field. And so for us, obviously we didn't get out of the gate very strong with a 1-0 loss on our first match at home. Went on the road and kind of laid an egg early the first half, and it wasn't looking too promising, but the thing that I'm most excited about is the togetherness and the fight and everyone understanding our role.

As you know, you go through an eight week preseason, you're pretty frustrated and you wanna be part of that starting 11 and if you're not, it's easy to hang your head and collectively as a group, this group is together. And you saw that in the last 25 minutes on the road in El Paso last weekend, where the subs came on, they made a major difference. Those guys finished the game and

brought us back into it. And we had a pretty good chance to actually win the game as well. And it didn't hurt that we've scored an absolute worldy as well that's gone all over the place. So I think for me, we want to take that momentum from that second half and keep building and keep getting better every day. Some guys are out on international duty, some guys have picked up some little knocks so we're still not fully there. But that's where it's next man up and that's the environment that PAWS created out here. Whether it be an academy kid or someone that's been around this league or playing at higher levels outside of the United States, we trust everyone that's in this building every day, and I'm really excited.

I'm really bullish on this group. You know, the fitness levels, the depth, the energy, the intensity, the mindset, the ideas, they're there. It's obviously you need a few breaks along the way to get three points, but the process has been a lot of fun since Paul was named head coach, and the people that we've attracted here, the people that want to be a part of this because of him and what this named head coach and the people that we've attracted here,

the people that want to be a part of this because of him and what this club has done and the fan base that we have. So I think we have all the ingredients. It may take a little bit longer than I want. Again, back to the impatient. But ultimately understanding it's a process. It's important for us to get better each and every day, each and every game. The data points, the metrics that we look for over 10 games, over 20 games over the course of the season. We want to see that progress. Results are important. A lot of times we're focused on the results,

but we're just as focused on the process right now. And I think we're building something pretty special with this group and the coaching staff. Well, president of Phoenix Rising, Bobby Dooley, if Nobel Aquell is on the field, soccer-wise is always watching. So you've got that at a minimum no matter what. Thank you for taking the time. We'll have to do this again soon.

Absolutely. Thanks for having me. Well, we continue on talking about the biggest subject of the week that is promotion relegation coming to us sell across its three divisions is what we believe but we're going to learn a little bit more and to talk about it. We someone I know very well Simon Evans you just launched this week good timing the soccer business newsletter and podcast at the soccer business.com you are a US sports correspondent for AFP you've been around the US sports scene or especially the soccer scene for a while and you time

this out very well. Yeah it was entirely coincidental and but it's been a very interesting week to see how everything's played out on that front and obviously a lot of interest in this story. So you've got a podcast and a newsletter that people can go sign up for and get connected to right? Yeah I mean the newsletter is already out and we look at the soccer business from top to bottom, everything. So we do cover USL, we cover NWSL, MLS,

we cover foreign soccer inside the US, broadcast media. Anything to do with money and soccer is what we're covering in sort of granular detail, really. And you've been covering the sport here, what, I think since David Beckham, right? Yeah, I came out in 2007, same year as Beckham did. Yeah, there was a couple of us did that and are still hanging around. Yeah, but I've been covering soccer since the 90s. And I know we've been talking about you launching this for almost a year now and you've been

digging into this side of the sport Specifically in this country in that context how surprised were you by what the news that came out this week? And how do you sort of digest it? Yeah, I mean I was surprised how quickly they've gone from announcing that they were gonna do a D1 league to doing this I thought there would have been a longer spell but it but People have been talking about this in the USL world for a long time, haven't they? There's been a lot of enthusiasts for Pro-Rel. There's a lot of people who think that the current level of interest in USL from potential investors, and it really is. That's one thing I noticed

and was surprised about to be honest when I started talking to a lot of people as the prep for the newsletter was just how much activity, business activities going on around USL. So I think that has been a factor that's driven them towards this decision is they can feel people interested, people wanting to get involved and they feel this sort of gives them a turbo boost.

What has been sort of the comments you've heard from people as you've covered this over the last year specifically of that what creates that turbo boost like what are the benchmarks reasons of why people want to do this and does it vary from person to person that you talked to? I think the overall interest in USL has got like two driving factors, I think. One is the whole sort of soccer boom that people talk about connected to the World Cup

and that things are happening and soccer is like having its moment again. And the second part of it is where else can you go, right? $500 million expansion fee for San Diego. You know, there's only so many people can operate at that level. There's only so many cities and markets can go to MLS and say,

we can pay that money and we wanna do this. If you wanna get involved in creating a club in your community, a professional soccer club, then, and you don't wanna to spend 500 million dollars, then USL becomes something that's at least interesting to explore, right? And I know there's a lot of that going on. So people who didn't quite understand what USL was are now talking to them and talking to other clubs and getting an idea.

And I think, you know, even though, you know, it's seen very much in the mainstream sports business world as a minor league, when you talk to people outside of the US now, they know what USL is. That wasn't the case, you know, five years ago. People didn't know what it was. So there's been quite a few changes on that front. And I think the foreign interest that's there is not massive, but there is some foreign interest in investing in USL and seeing potential in it. And I spoke to Paul McDonough after the decision. He was saying that the foreign investors, they like the sound of Pro-Rel because it's

very familiar to them. It feels like this is something that's part of the global game. When he talked, what was his feelings this week after sort of this monumental vote that he had to push? I mean, he's very bullish about it. You know, he really feels that this is something that will push the league to the next level. A division one league with promotion and relegation, he feels is something that will,

the word he kept using was authentic, you know, and that taps into a lot of the discourse we always hear about Pro-REL, right, that it's the way the rest of the world operates. So, you know, he's very much upbeat about it and thinks it's something his owners have backed and that they really, really want to do. When you look at how now it works out, what are the sort of big things that are popping in your head or the big conversations you're having with other people about what this looks like and what this vote means? I mean, I think the most important caveat to the whole thing is, and I

clarified this with McDonald's, is that it is contingent on the new Division 1 league coming into existence in 2028 which means of course under the current sanctioning rules that there would need to be minimum 12 teams all of them with 15,000 stadiums and then there's all the requirements about how rich your owner is and how big your market is and so on. But the main one in practical terms is having 12 teams with 15,000 stadiums. That's a pretty big caveat, right? You're going to bring it in if that happens in three years time. So that is a little bit of a reality check, I think, for people who are being very enthusiastic about

this. And I get that enthusiasm. It is exciting development, but there's a lot of work to be done to get themselves in that position. Because he was saying that if promotion and relegation doesn't work in the current USL setup between the championship and League One, he said there's not a lot of point in doing that. So if they do that and they build it, then something great is going on in USL, quite frankly, if they can build all those stadiums or

expand all those stadiums and get to that level. It does feel from the outside, and we talked about this, you know, off air when we when the Division One was announced and we were talking about it, it does feel like to me a little bit of a stick in a carrot where It feels like for Paul McDonough and USL. They're trying to push their owners into that space to say take these steps Let's push this league even further, which means physical investment in infrastructure For some teams building stadiums at all because they don't have permanent buildings that they own or have ever been a part of building themselves or renting, whatever it is.

You've still got teams playing in baseball stadiums and college football stadiums and all of that. And it feels like there's that with the other side, which is like, we can do this really cool thing and make it work, but you have to sort of put your money down now. And now Paul McDonough has a vote where he said 90% of the owners said, okay, to do this and he can turn around and

say well if you want to do this this is how we get there. Yeah and I think if those sanctioning criteria do remain in place I mean it's possible that USL sits down with US soccer and says hey can we look at this again this was built for a different era it was under a different leadership of US soccer. So that's not out of the question. But if those things stay as they are, there are gonna be some clubs out there who voted for promotion and relegation

who are not gonna be in a position to do all these upgrades because they just don't have the capital for it at this stage. Do they go looking for that capital and fresh investors? That would be what I would think Paul McDonough would want them to do. And the other factor is that that 12-team league, maybe only half of it is upgraded USL championship teams

and that there are new clubs coming in. I mean, there are a lot of cities, aren't there, looking at starting professional soccer clubs. We see this phenomena, really, of OKC for soccer, Cleveland Pro Soccer, Buffalo pro soccer, where the cities and businesses have come together. And it's very much how it was during the early days of MLS expansion, isn't it? Where people are saying, we want to do this.

Let's see if we can get a team together to make it happen. Now if they get five or six of those coming into that top tier, then that's a different ball game. Yeah, you have to wonder if this would this have kept a San Diego loyal alive or kept MLS out of San Diego and those are sort of the markets you're talking about of can you look at the list of cities that deserve or want a first division team and now give an option that doesn't cost the $500 million to buy in and then they can start already at that level you mentioned the

us soccer um sort of tiers and the sanctioning and all of that and that's one of the things that i've been thinking about which is you could understand why it happened in the first place which was the fear from the original nasl of like some teams overspending spending outside of their owner's limits and then the league getting saddled with debt and collapsing because you didn't have enough teams functioning at a high level and it wasn't sustainable. So you get these restrictions put in of like, basically you need owners that have a net value, net worth, so they can carry the debt of a team if necessary

at the worst case scenario, and then you are trying to build things that are sustainable, which means you need a large enough market to build it. It feels to some extent to me, like if you do have a pro-rel setup, there is sort of natural selection in that, which you don't, the US soccer, I don't know,

has to license it in the same way, because if a team can't afford to function, they'll get relegated. They won't drag the whole division down because of the way you have it set up. So it seems to me, pitchable at least from a USL point of view, which is if they can get those 12 to 15 clubs at the top that can create that initial sanctioning, that you can find ways to bring lower division teams that are

smaller teams that play well enough to deserve it in and out of these divisions without having them be fully sanctioned the way they originally should have been when we're talking about this right now. Yeah, and it's a different mindset, isn't it? So I think when you're setting up a closed league like an NESL or an MLS and you put in a team from a very small market with a very small, maybe unsuitable stadium, people look at that and say, well, is that sustainable? I mean, because they're thinking about, you know,

can they go the distance, maybe losing regularly every season as a franchise, losing money, and so on and so forth. And as you rightly point out, there is a sort of natural selection element to this, and those teams will disappear. They might be just there for a couple of years. I mean, the example everyone is giving me is Bournemouth.

Their stadium is very small, but they've got great owners. That's a positive example. The other example is Luton Town. Luton Town went up to the Premier League with a totally unsuitable stadium, got relegated straight away. They're probably going to get relegated again this year and go down to League One.

And so that's a club that you know, you didn't have to worry about licensing Luton Town and Forcing them to like expand their ground to 20,000 or something because they've gone they've had their moment and they've gone and that will happen in promotion and relegation Do you have any indication from a financial point of view of what's necessary in terms of? indication from a financial point of view of what's necessary in terms of does the league need a massive media deal to make this happen? How do you tie it to what division you're in? Is there revenue share? Like is there a I guess my question mainly should be do you have an idea from the outside about any of the

details or how this is working? There aren't any details. That's what I've discovered talking to people. I mean, I was saying the other day that this is more of a statement of intent than a plan. I think that might be a little bit harsh. I think there is an outline of a plan there. But the details, how many teams go up? Are you going to have playoffs promotion and relegation? What's the system for when an expansion team comes in? What division they go in? There's

a ton of questions and a lot of detail to be worked out. Are there going to be parachute payments? You know, that's a very English thing, but you know, USL does keep calling itself the championship and league one and so on. So it wouldn't be surprising if they looked at least looked and considered something like that. There's loads of details to be worked out and I don't get the impression that they've worked it out yet. I think this is like let's make this statement. Let's say we're going to do this. We're going to do the Division 1 league.

We'll work out the details. Everything's going to be fine guys. But let's get this ball moving and let's get people coming in. And it's all about trying to capture that energy. I think that the 2026 factor in this with the World Cup shouldn't be underestimated. It's like, we're doing something. And you know what?

You can't get away from that whole thing about MLS and USL and whether there is gonna be the soccer wars element of it. MLS aren't making big moves around 2026. It's going to probably be a very very similar league in 2027 to what it was before. So they're able to differentiate themselves from MLS by doing this even if at this stage the details are thin to say the least. Do you think there can be two divisions in two division ones in in one country that function and it makes sense? I mean whether it makes sense or not I don't know I mean it's possible I mean this is

American soccer right this is and this is this is a very big country I don't I actually don't see any reason why you couldn't have yeah MLS it'll still be the number one league it's's still going to have the rich owners. It's going to have probably some kind of big media deal in the future after the Apple thing, bringing in Lionel Messi's and Luis Suarez's and so on. And then why not have a league where you can start a team in a small town in North Carolina and potentially go up to a division one. I mean there's so much soccer on TV and you know these are communities some of the smaller ones in USL that are never gonna have a pro team in any other sport

other than soccer. So why not build that pyramid out there? I mean I don't see I don't think MLS should be worried about this necessarily. I do see some potential conflict areas. I mean, the number one candidate at the moment, as far as we know for expansion, the next expansion slot into MLS would be Indianapolis. Meetings have been going on there. Garber was over there the other week

with a whole team of people from MLS, and they were very much the kind of people who visit when they're doing expansion deals. Well, India Leveney is one of the prime teams in the USL Championship, you know, so there are going to be these issues and these skirmishes and so on. Same with MLS Next Pro, when you drop down a couple of levels, if they start picking up

the independent clubs that they're looking to generate, if some of them are coming over from USL, then you're going to be into that situation. But I don't see in principle why the two things can't coexist side by side. Yeah, I agree with you. I think there's enough space. I sort of think about it in the like, I think what USL is trying to do and what soccer in America in general is trying to do is fill in like the minor league baseball college football gameday life experience of You're not gonna have an NBA team and NFL team in every market

So people still like going to sports and they still like doing these things the question is can you build it sustainably so that you're not trying to rise to this level which then becomes unsustainable and you're probably not going to go out and sign Antoine Griezmann which is okay as long as your game day experience is still fun and good and there's a buzz to it and the building's the right size and continues to be competitive and this Pro-REL could fit into that which is you always have competitive games right there's always something to drive fans to because on bad years now you go into a relegation playoff

and you can promote at the end of the year three sellouts and say this is must win like this is a big game and I think that's one of the advantages of doing this. The question then is how it happens and when it happens. What are you looking out for now? What are sort of the things that you're watching for over the next few years? Investment, because I think this only works if new people come in.

I think you have to start to see things like Oklahoma City coming back with the new club, which I think is gonna happen. We've got to the team name selection stage, so they've got to do it now and they've got to avoid United at all costs. But then you go up and you look at these other markets. If you're talking about a Division 1, the markets that they're in at the moment in the USL Championship doesn't sound like a Division 1, most of them. But if you had a Division

1 league with the likes of Cleveland Buffalo Oklahoma City, you know name another three markets of that sort of size. Yeah, these these are Phoenix Vegas, these are NFL markets San Antonio. Yeah All of them pretty much are NBA or NFL markets. So they're big enough to sustain, you know, top-flight sport If you do that, you've you've got something then if you can have the financial backing behind it I mean I really do think that that that is the exciting part about this because that is the frustration with MLS you look at it and you know I know Cleveland pretty well the partner in the soccer business is from Cleveland and and it is

ridiculous that there isn't a professional soccer team in Cleveland the partner in the soccer business is from Cleveland and and it is ridiculous that there isn't a professional soccer team in Cleveland you know and it's interesting there as well and this ties into it that it's actually the women's game that's driving that interest there they wanted an NWSL team they're probably gonna have a pro women's team in another league well who's offering that opportunity you know so there's a whole sequence of things that play here. Yeah, there is an appetite for the game

in a lot of these markets and if MLS is gonna be a closed league, you can't get all of them in all the time. So there's a lot to still figure out, there's a lot of intrigue. We'll of course cover it here at Soccerwise, but go to the soccer business. You know, subscribe to the newsletter, go to the soccer business You know subscribe to the newsletter go to the website listen to the podcast And you can hear Simon continue to explore all of this and then you'll come back on here and we'll talk about all of it again