SoccerWise - STL Move On From Lutz, Brenner Back & Shield/Leagues Cup Trophy Runs

Episode Date: August 25, 2025

The transfer window is over but the news doesn't stop as Tom is the first to report STL City SC is moving on from their first sporting director Lutz Pfannenstiel. After that we still have to talk about all the late moves in the transfer window, and finally they look at the wild weekend that was and ahead to the Leagues Cup semifinal.6:35 Lutz Pfannenstiel Let Go In STL31:25 Whitecaps Controversial Win33:40 FCC Late Transfer Fury40:10 Insanity Atop The East44:20 Min United Transfer Questions Around Pereyra49:00 Leagues Cup Preview

Hey, everybody, welcome back to soccer wise, David Goss and Tommy Scoops, back with you, just the two-man show here today. We don't got the full crew of people we've worked with over the last 20 years, all in the house, as we did last time. If you missed it, you can go back and listen to our show from Thursday. We had Andrew Weeby and Matt Doyle on with us for the live transfer window in which nothing actually happened while we were on, which actually made it really fun. It ended up being just a full mid-season recap, transfer window conversation. We talked a bit about MLS's future and where they stand in terms of the global market. So I'd highly recommend if you haven't, go back and listen

to that show. But Tom, just the two of us for this one. Yeah, back to our regularly scheduled programming. that will become irregular again moving forward just because there's a billion things going on all the time it was so much fun to do that with dole and weeby and like i always you know feel bad for taking up people's times when when it's not something you have to like webe's like dude there's literally nothing else i'd rather be doing between whatever you know noon and 2 p.m that day he's like i got nothing else to do like i can talk for hours so that's always fun and then doyle skipping the gym i love to give doyle reason to skip the gym yeah we didn't plan on having

Doyle because we had already had him on the kickback committee last week, and I don't like to overtax people's time. And then he was literally watching the show in the comments, telling us what to talk about. Side text. It's like, bro, if you're going to challenge us, step up to the plate. Don't say on the sideline heckling us at Rucker Park. Roll the ball out there. I sit like, I said, do you want to join? He goes, I'm going to the gym. I was like, oh, yeah, are you? And then I came back from the phone call and he was there. I was like, oh, yeah, you look like you're wearing athletic clothes. I put the link in the chat, and he said that, and I was like, okay, he's not coming on.

And then he just came on without me even knowing that it was happening. So you never know where a wild Doyle will pop up. But if you're, if you're coy enough about it, you can catch him in a pokey ball and get a really good show out of all of it. Doyle killed it last week. It was really, really fun. We did our happy hour with Iko Parra, who is now the interim head coach of SKC, too. But we talked about North Carolina. we talked about his career.

We talked about a lot of different stuff on Thursday with him, Claudia Paghan, and Susanna Fuller. So I'd highly recommend going and checking out that show if you're looking for a little bit more coverage and a little bit more to listen to. And myself and Susanna will be back on the kickback committee tomorrow coming up. And we've got big news this week. We are launching our World Cup newsletter

because we're in the end game now, as I think Garthogory properly said, or something else about games, which I never understood. So I tried to reuse it, and I didn't do it very well. But we are really, really excited to get that rolling. So that is going to be coming out. And then we're going to be doing it every single week going forward, how to get tickets, where to go, what's going on with the teams and everything else.

I have been doing research about a lot of national teams. And I am hyped to learn a lot about countries I don't know a lot about. It is my favorite activity. And I like to learn about places in general. So we've got our 50 states of soccer. Last week, as I said, was North Carolina. this week is Idaho. Let that settle in.

And you're all thinking of yourselves like, okay, what are we going to talk about? So one, they just announced a USL team in Boise. Two, there's a huge Basque population in Boise. So Athletic Bilbao had played a friendly there over the last 10 years or so. And there are like multiple NWSL best 11 players who are from there. Blake Bodley is from there. Portland Timbers legend. And I was unaware of this one.

But Joe Cannon technically is from Idaho. I think he grew up in Idaho and California. I don't know if that's a skiing thing. I don't know what that is. But he's across the two. And of course, Tom famously put down roots in Idaho last week, right? No, I did not cross over the border. But I did look on Zillow.

You didn't make the 20-minute drive west so you could claim it. I was thinking about it. It was like same thing when I got to North Yellowstone, and we were at least like another hour from going into Montana. I was just like, to give my wife, like, what if? Yeah. Just drove this, drove further away while we just did two hikes today. And another thing.

I tried the same thing and it didn't work for me either. I am this weekend going on vacation in Tom's footsteps. And I'm going to South Dakota. So I'm flying into Rapid City, South Dakota, which is a place I had never heard of before. But now I'm aware of. And I'm going to the bad lands. And I guess Mount Rushmore. And I don't know what else.

So if you've got any recommendations in that area, someone already sent me Chisic, which is fried meat on a toothpick with saltines. Sick? I'll try it. I'm in. Yeah. Don't question me.

But if you have any other recommendations, please shoot them my way. You all will finish up Idaho without me at the end of this week. And then next week we've got a good one on tap as we get ready to dive into the greatest states in the history of soccer. Before we move on, quick shout out to our own, John Parker, Mazel tov. on his nuptials this weekend.

He is part of what is the tallest couple that I have ever met. So congratulations on that. And I will say I was an MVP on the dance floor. So everyone's everyone who experienced that. You're welcome in totality. Let's move into our breaking news. So we had this show set. We have to talk Brenner still because Brenner happened after we finished our last episode.

We still have to talk about Minnesota United. And what's going on is they added more pieces. even after we got off, which pushes us even further into the direction that Doyle's definitely buying his Pereira, Minnesota, United Jersey, because he's 100% sure he'll be there for the rest of his career. It was a wild weekend in MLS. All the top of the Shield lost the bad teams, but then Philadelphia put up a four spot, Nashville put up a five spot, and now we're back in all together, everyone on top of each other,

and we've got a League's Cup semi-final coming up, which we care about a little bit, Yeah, probably not as much as other semifinals that we'll care about. No, less than the U.S. Open Cup semifinal, concaf Champions Cup semifinal, but it's a semifinal. So we will talk about that as well. So there's a lot to discuss, but in typical Tommy fashion, he blows it up with a scoop right in the morning. It is the news that St. Louis City SC has moved on from their first ever sporting director,

Lutz Fanon Steel, after what has been a tough season. Tom, you've been all over this. So give us the skinny and then we can chat about it. Yeah, this one, it wasn't necessarily a huge shock that it happened, just given the way the last two seasons have gone for St. Louis. The timing maybe a little bit you thought would he get until the end of the season, you know, if he already got through, was obviously presiding over the summer transfer window.

Everything I heard was that he had full autonomy, you know, going through the dead deadline a few days ago. So you figured that maybe he'd continue on until the end of the season. but I was told there have been no head coaching interviews yet. I don't know if that was indicative of this was further premeditated or if that was just they wanted to go towards the end of the season before they started doing that. But at the end of it, this is in his third season of CSO.

He took over, they gave him a long runway, which I thought was one of the smarter things that this club has done in hiring a sporting director early and letting Luce Fandage Steel and the front office. Like they had a six-month stretch where they had like Roman Burke, Juoile Klaus, Edward Louvin, all of them were signed the summer before their first season, which not just in terms of continuity or in terms of let's figure out where we could loan them. Like, you're on the hook for those contracts starting, you know, July 1st rather than January 1st.

And that is, I thought, a smart thing that the ownership did and Lutz Fendishu in this club did. We'll start with the good. They were the highest finish ever for an expansion season. They finished first in the Western Conference of 23. That was excellent. There was a lot of building blocks that looked really good, have continued to be really good, or struggled with injuries. So there was a lot good, particularly in that first season.

But obviously, gosh, the last two seasons have not gone to plan. Last year, they finished 12th with 37 points. That's a 1.09 point per game. This season, 14th place currently at a 0.8 point per game pace. And then they fired their first manager halfway through last season. The same one who brought them to that first place finish in their first year. First in the Eastern Conference. with the Philadelphia Union.

And who is now first in the Supporter Shield race with the Philadelphia Union in his first season after leaving the team makes things look even worse. There's a lot to unpack with this. And a lot of it we've kind of talked about a decent amount because it's been sort of simmering. It has been questioned over the last year of like what lutes his place is with this team. What is he responsible for? What should the expectations be? and where they stand.

One of the things that was always tough about their expansion year is they finished on 56 points first in the West. San Diego are on 53 right now. So it was the standings were disproportionate, and then you will have heard many times if you listen to any of the content that we worked on, that the underlying numbers said

that they got a little bit fortunate that year and overperformed, which is great on the one hand, and you'd think you'd want to ride that out a little bit. And maybe year two is a little rocky. that's where the Bradley Carnell firing was bizarre, where it was a rocking of the boat internally that wasn't forced externally. I think most people would have given them the luxury of a year

saying, okay, it was great last year, it's not as good this year. It takes time to settle in what does year three look like? And I think Lutz Fanon's deal, in his position as sporting director, took on more pressure by taking away Bradley Carnot because then it's 100% on the person above him, right? you can't blame Olaf Melberg for coming in later and not being good enough to fix the problems that

existed. And the responsibility of hiring him falls on the sporting structure ahead of him. That obviously was a tire fire. They now sit with a interim head coach who will probably get an opportunity but isn't a clear, obvious candidate that should be the coach. And it doesn't feel like another candidate has emerged and the team now sits in a really weird place. Yeah, so there are people that they like, obviously, but again, there have been no formal interview or interview requests to my knowledge. And, yeah, again, it was a parlay of multiple bad decisions, ultimately. So first, like, firing Bradley Carnell, that in and of itself, again, like, you were just saying, like, neither of us agreed with it at the time, at least give it to the end of the season, figure it out, and again, in hindsight, it's only gotten worse. But then, what would this team look like if they kept John Hackworth?

don't know if this is 100% different, but like, this team is night and day from what they were last year. Yes, they've had injuries this season. They've had a lot of injuries. Edward Louvin has been in and out with both injuries and in his personal situation with his, with his wife. Like, it's, it's that part I do feel bad. But I don't know, man, like there was a lot of similarities from this team last year. And like last summer it was like, oh man, if we just had toy shirt and hurdle for the whole season. I'm like, well, you have for the most part. And I don't know. So I'm still of the belief that John Hacker. would have had this team in a better spot would that have kept lutes his job would this team be above the playoff line i don't know if that's unfair to even you know really say it's unfair to say something definitively but but it's absolutely fair to ask the question so it wasn't it wasn't just what we thought was a bad decision to fire bradley carnell but then a bad decision to not keep the interim manager and going off and hiring somebody else shout out to chris hootsky who just popped in here one of our favorites helps us out with so much across discord our depth charts everything else and is a huge st louis city fan so it is a big day for him and

many of the fans. I know ball watching already did a live show coming out of this one. They do a great job covering St. Louis. We've been on their show. They've been on our show. So obviously we always recommend going and checking them out. It is a big question. What it would have been if they kept Hackworth. And then one of the other sort of big storylines with this team is the bigger signings they've made have not all panned out. The question is, and we had this conversation around Colorado, is one, how big of signings are they actually? actually in the context of MLS. So what should the expectation be on the hit rate?

And then the other one is, is that a self-imposed limit from ownership? Is that a decision by the sporting and front office? And some of that goes back to the original quote from Lutz Fan and Seal ahead of the expansion season, which said, we're not really on the hunt anymore for DPs in my world. There are no designated players. We believe in DT. Designated team 11 players make a difference, not one or two. It's a great line.

It's a great quote. The team is the star. we all love it is it carrying water for ownership that's like hey this isn't going to happen and do not get pressure on us to do it uh i think a lot of the conversation all of us have heard around it is the build of the stadium was the initial spend and when they get over the some of the payments that are more immediate for that then the team will open up the the checkbook a little more on players but in that d t such situation you can't really miss a ton because you can't have weak spots Yolkeem Nielsen has been a below par signing for them.

And that was supposed to be a big piece of why they were going to be good was because of the spine of this team. They've made mistakes in central midfield. They've had players come in that have gone out before even playing. And yet, Jow Klaus has not been as healthy as you'd like. You mentioned, of course, the unfortunate situation for Lovin and how unavailable he's been. But it doesn't feel like there has been a group put together that can all, fit to each other's strengths and it hasn't been activated under a head coach to do so and it does

very much feel like a club similar lafc that is sporting director led and not head coach led and if that's the case then if the results are bad the pressure will be on you exactly like again that's what it comes down to like this is the cliche it's a result driven business and the last two years have been bad and again with the context of the coaching decision and then the coaching being hired that that wasn't good enough yeah but again like i like wigan wad things have been very bad the last two years first season was the story like that was a lot of fun for this team and a lot of those signings did well obviously jock claus lovin like and lovin was kind of out of their control i do know that like i'm sure a lot of other people from the club have been there to but like i do know that like lutz van shales

being at the hospital with louvin and louvon's wife which like that's a detail just to humanize some of these things but yeah it just hasn't been good enough and now here we are and and st louis are going into their new era uh with club president dago jigliani said uh something to the effective you know hey you know while we're thankful for everything that's previous regime is done, you know, we need to move forward. And a line in, in one of his quotes was like, you know, for the next five years. And like, that's just always a reminder. Like, yeah, like, this is about the medium to long term.

That's what his sporting director is supposed to be looking at, even though, of course, again, the day-to-day results are going to dictate a lot of things. But the job in and of itself is a long-term, mid-term thing. So let's see in which direction they're going to go next. And for me, Goss, like, there's a couple candidates that that I want to start with and just dude's naming guys, Scott. Before we get there, I do want to ask. what you think a structure looks like because jigliani is more soccer facing than a lot of

presidents in mLS and i'm just curious what people should be thinking about in terms of where lutes ended up falling in and maybe some of the reason he got pushed out and then what they're probably looking for what we think they're looking for to move forward yeah i mean again like jinguani is not like he's more in charge of like the business side of things rather than like decide like and it does go dip like poor rick smith is technically president of the rapids obviously he's doing soccer like c sos too like um i think john thorington and leofc technically also has he is also the president but he is again first the former sporting director garth loggerlay in Atlanta like they are presidents but they come from the sporting back what i my understanding

of this was that juggling is not supposed like it's still supposed to be lutes his final call at the end but when you go to like these clubs like you know the end of the day ownership signs off either like one like literally but also tacitly with okay you this is your budget right like and again and all head coaching stuff like that comes from from the ownership as well like i don't think it's a coincidence why er quill got the dallas job i think that there was some influence there from ownership but that's not to say that like in that situation sport director wasn't also on board but like again i can't say with 100% certainty you know what exactly the workflow was there other than that like lute's fantasy it was the CSO and and again he's supposed to have disney decision-making power

And like you said before, it falls on him. Yeah. The other thing that's odd about this before we move on to potential names is the timing. He's your sporting director. So like you just said, final call on things like transfers is his responsibility. The transfer window closed four days ago. So, and they lost to Vancouver this weekend on the road. Vancouver is the second best team in the Western Conference.

It's an away game in MLS. That doesn't feel like that can be a final straw moment. And if it is, then I don't know what the scale internally is. And if it's not, what has been the timeline that they've been waiting for? And that is really, really weird. I think that's something everyone's struggling with from the outside. It, of course, is affected by the coaching search. But, like, if you weren't going to give him the opportunity to run the coaching search for the next coach,

why was he running the last transfer window for you? Yeah, I know. It's a good question. But, like, there has to be, like, a separate, like, would it be more disrespectful if they were like, hey, you're going to remain in charge to the end of the transfer winter, but you're not allowed to do anything? Again, I understand your point, but it's, you know, the decision. No, but for the team, why would you let him do anything

if you don't trust them to run your team anymore? Well, the good news is that they didn't do so much. Like, follow fall and... Which may be an even bigger problem. Well, the idea, what I was told was that preserve maximum flexibility for the winter. So they did. I wonder why. Yeah, I wonder why.

So all of that, I think, is part of what's a little bit confusing. And I think this is the nature of what I just said about Bradley Carnell will now go up the chain. The pressure now will move up to President GM and to ownership, which is, okay, the ownership did a fantastic job to bring the club in. The stadium is top-notch elite. They built an atmosphere that I think has connected to a lot of fans in a way that a lot of MLS expansion owners struggle with. They don't really get soccer. They don't really get their markets. They don't build the facility and the experience in a way that makes sense.

They have done all of that right. They have not spent exorbitantly on the team. The academy has come along probably slower than everyone would have expected, considering it being St. Louis. Those are like the two real spending areas you get outside of the average salary of the team, which are all pretty similar across Major League Soccer. That saying that means the pressure will come if the results are not there because you can convince fans you don't need to spend big and you don't need DPs if you're winning.

That's fine. but you're not and you can't really blame anyone else if you keep firing the people below you and the pressure at some point and the eye will turn towards you and now you can name dude so um this i will preface this by that like in years past it was a lot more obvious it was like when dc had their opening and some other places where it was like isa tall ricotta morera were two of the like all right they're obviously going to be gm soon and now they both like isa in columbus and and Ricardo in, in Orlando. So for me, I know that he only moved recently.

I think Neil McGinnis at L.A.C. should be the absolute obvious next guy. Like, any team with a CSO opening should be interviewing him because what he did, he was the director of scouting Columbus. You know, there was a lot of good people working at that organization. So, like, I don't want to start going into, like, divvying up. Oh, all the good things are because of one person. Anything that didn't work out was good.

Like, all of them, Tim Besbichenko, now he's at the ownership group for Bormith. Wilfred Nancy is regarded as one of the best coaches in MLS. Isatoll is now the GM there. Corey Ray went and worked for Montreal and Neil McGinnis off to L.A. Those are five people who did, who have done really, really well and continue to do well. I think that all of them are great. I think Neil McGinnis should be at the top of any list for next like CSO. Louis Mozy.

So he's not to CSO and Orlando anymore, but he's like special advisors. He still works for Orlando, but these guys like, what they want to do is be the CSO and pick a team. And so, like, could you convince him to leave if you offer the CSO job? I think, yes, but I don't know that for a fact. So Louis Moosey is another one. I think those two just given their track records, I think those two would stand above just of names that we know for sure. So I'll stop there before going down the list,

and if you have any thoughts on Moosey or McGuinness. No, I think they both. I mean, the experience, obviously, with Moosey is much higher. He's been in the league for a while. He's had this job. This is where I asked the question of like, okay, what is your president slash GM technically looking for? And I wonder if Neil McGinnis is the right fit there, which is like probably slots in cleaner underneath to create more of a cohesive structure. And part of the reason we externally think Neil McGinnis might be interested is John Thornton's not going anywhere.

And John Thornton will be the first one to say that. So you're looking at a situation when it's like not awkward to say, hey, I know I just got here. But, like, I would like to go interview because there's no chance I'm ever moving up into this role. And I think I'm good enough to do it. And as you said, he's been connected to two really good clubs. The last person who held his job that left was Will Coons. He won an MLS Cup for a tire fire club within his first year. And so if that's what St. Louis is looking to copy, Neil McGinnis has a different background.

But that's sort of the playbook. You were looking to fill. Excellent player identification. Like, you even go back. like he was a guy who Celtic signed Virgil Van Dyke like that was his purview and like again there's so many like Cucho Hernandez and that kind of Van Dyke's good he's like a good one proper footballer mate um so yeah like listen like again I think McGinnis and Mozy would would be the two but to your point I was helping you with this exercise before we got on and it used to be

like here are the top number twos across a lot of these clubs that should get opportunities or here are the ones who have just gotten fired right maybe they were weird situations and part of this was there was a number of people who've gotten fired recently who are like borderline unemployable which is very very i would say odd but it's probably not which is part of a bigger problem that we can deal with on a different episode and there is a lot of people who have gotten opportunities recently that have been taken from number two roles yes into number ones and so in terms of this standard list it's not as straightforward what we have seen over the last few years is now you're going to get the people from the Danish leagues and

Belgian leagues and coming from Brazil and Argentina like these interview processes are bigger than just who else in MLS is around but you would I think like to see St. Louis try and lean into some MLS experience because for the most part the roster has over indexed it feels like on international players yeah and so listen like I'm glad that you said I should have set it up that way and like I'm not saying that this is binary one is right and one is wrong what i will say is there's a much higher hit rate on just go find your favorite number two in the league interview five of them and pick your favorite um look at what chris albright is done in sincy that team was literally the worst

ever team the history of major these are the examples sincy and galaxy for st louis fans to be like how long you're like chris making a joke in the chav like oh five-year play in 2030 should be great totally understandable get i get it i'm gonna go about to go in a year where They're like, I'm going to be like, oh, Aaron Glenn, scrap to four wins. It's going to be better in four years. I get that. MLS, though, now we have proven you can flip fairly fast with the right people in place. Yeah, and like, look, Nashville hired Mike Jacobs.

He was at Kansas City. That's been really, really good. And, like, again, you can go on down the list just in recent memory. And just, again, it's mostly, it's, again, it's not 100%, but the floor is higher there. Again, that doesn't mean going out of the league is bad. You look at Ernst Tanner is the best example of this. Charlotte or 4th, like Zorn Kreneta's there. Like whatever you feel like, David Lee had experience in MLS, like at a lower level before

NYCFC made him a sporting director. Khalid al-Hamad, he came from Barnsley. Yes, he worked for City Football Group at NYCFC a little bit. But again, it doesn't, I'm not saying this as 100% to 0%, but it's like push comes a shove. I don't know exactly what I want to do. Find five interviews from around the league of guys who are respected. Didn't pick your favorite. It's usually a good way to go.

So in that thread. A few other names that I like. Corey Ray just left Montreal. I don't know if that means he has another job lined up or if it was just a natural ending point. But Corey Ray, he came from that Columbus tree. Asher Mendelsohn with the Houston Dynamo. They've not been perfect this season.

But what him and Pat Onstad have done with that club have been strong. Fran Taylor's been with the Colorado Rapids for a while. You know, Goss and I have talked about that we appreciate what that club has done under Pork Smith and Fran Taylor with the constraints that they have. Mark Przant, he was with my, Miami, and then he went to San Diego, and he's only been an assistant GM there for a year, but like, look at what, again, Tyler Heaps is CSO, Young CSO, Prezahn has been a big part of that,

what that team has done. Again, just go to the teams who are good and find your favorite guy, and then, well, a team that's not very good right now, but a rising candidate of somebody that I've heard, Chris Tierney in New England is somebody that people respect, and I'd be surprised if that's a guy who played there for a long, long time, so I'd be surprised if he'd leave because he's in a good spot but again I think these are some of the names that come up and then I'll say one last one if you feel that this is the only way you could get this guy if Jim Curtin says I will come be your head coach as long as I have final decision making CSO I'll bring in my own GM but at the

end of the day I've earned that I have this if that's the only way you can sign Jim Curtin the same with Chicago fire the only way they're going to get Greg Burrhalter I'd say to do it as as St. Louis looks down to Kansas City and says could this system work at best is this the right way to go about this now i would say don't don't don't i think i think i think uh i think uh curt would hire or help hire more like what burholter's done they brought in mikey stevens they brought in greg brought and they already had some other guys there's a more robust front office there was not a robust front office in kansas city uh i just thought what would happen if they hired peter vermes for any of these rules i i was on

So I was on, right before this, the St. Louis radio station, yeah, and guys like, listen, just throwing out the right of name out there, Peter Vermeis. I was just like, wow, this is like a St. Louis, like, local show. Like, I figured this was, you know, don't touch this one. But on that front, like, everything we've said on this show around his dismissal in Kansas City, I think remains. Peter Vermeis, the head coach should be upset with Peter Vermeis as Sporting Director. If he says, I will only come if it's CSO sporting director, that's an absolute, that's a hard no.

And then, even if it's just as a head coach, you do need to have consideration on the fan base. Yeah. But he should be, he should, if they could get over that, you know, again, if this was anonymous of like this isn't your biggest, the head coach and the guy who's synonymous with your biggest rival, again, this all seems unlikely, but just tripping it all the way down of like in a vacuum should per Peter Vermis get interviews for other head coaching jobs at M.S. The answer is absolutely yes. Yeah. some other names that popped in my chance myers i think could be mentioned because you talked about the work mike jacobs is done and that's good shout too and the way they function again mLS heavy understanding the rules understanding the quality of players in the league uh eddie pope should be

thrown out there i think uh running the mls next pro side in carolina and so has a little bit of first team executive work um but yeah there's not like a sometimes this happens and we're like wink wink we all know who's getting the job like we all know what's happening right now we've gotten the chat people trying to throw their executives at st louis mainly austin fans so i don't know that that's going to work out for everyone involved but it's going to be fascinating because the timing there is not a long timeline for this because you need to get the coached up whoever you hire has to hire the coach yeah yes you need that all in place so just like you go back to new england that ended with

Kernanolfo and then not long after it's Caleb Porter. I know for a fact in those interviews, it's okay, what's your plan? Who would you be considering for head coach? So, like, yes, you were right, but the candidates going into these meetings are saying, and these are who I like as a potential head coach. Or like, this is like the parameters. So it won't be like, all right, you're hired starts from scratch. That Caleb Porter thing's gone well, right?

What if the other finalists who had their suggestions? Like, what I'm saying is that like these aren't like, all right, you got the job. Now what are you going to do for head coach? good luck. No, for sure. Right. But, like, you need the coach in place so you can help run a transfer window and so that you can have a full preseason so that you can try and actually start a season in a correct place and not be behind the eight ball for the third time in a row. I agree. This needs to happen. This needs to be accelerated. This has to be top priority. They need to do it very quickly and not get into that situation. Got you completely right. Like, again, even going back to, I think

Chris Albright took over Sinci at around this time, maybe September or whatever. The point was is that they had like six or eight, like six regular season games left. That was, then they came in and said, this is how we want to play and the interim coach played that way. They went to two forwards after that happened.

And then Brandon Vasquez was like, oh, this guy's pretty good. And then the next season he had his breakout. So like, this could be valuable time if they're able to get, even if it's a month. Like maybe it doesn't mean anything for the games,

but like you need to be ready to go day one of the off season. Um, I guess we could mention here that St. Louis went to Vancouver and lost three to two this weekend in a controversial. fashion. Don't use the word controversial if you look at my mentions for daring to say it's

controversial and not blasphemous. It was a bad call. It's a bad call. But controversial is a correct way to describe it. It was a stoppage time penalty against, I think it was Mickey Joyner, right? Who, who was cutting behind Matthias Laborda and Laborda ends up going down. Penalty kick

called. I think it was finally taken in the hundred and third minute by Thomas Mueller for his first goal. That actually stands for Vancouver, which ended up being a three to win. Brian White had a penalty kick in the first half for the white caps. And it was a huge moment because the white caps on points per game are second in the league right now. And first in the Western Conference, and it was two points potentially dropped that ends up becoming three points gained for this white caps team. The penalty kick was not called on the field. And then VAR recommended the review to Photos Pizakis, who went over.

And as you said, blew the call. I'm just, that is, why, this is not how we use VAR. This is not how we use VAR. It's just shocking. Like, the game ends up going into the 115th minute, whatever, I'm sorry, the 150th minute, the 15th minute of stoppage time. And like, they had to overanalyze. And you still can't tell if the player got clipped.

It's, I don't, I just, these are when I get really frustrated at VAR. Yeah. What are we doing there? Yeah, it was not clear and obvious. And that's where, if it had been called, on the field, I would have been fine with leaving it. And if it wasn't, then it should have been left as well. And that kind of is what I think a lot of people are upset about.

You end up getting the White Caps winner. And it was Mueller against Berkey, which is pretty funny. Class. To end that game on. I think overall, the White Caps deserved the result. I think overall Mueller has fit in well. And like you see in this game, playing as the 10 with, you know, with Sabi and Nelson alongside him white ahead of him um burrhalter in that deeper spot like it fits pretty well movement's

really good man it's really good and this is a result i think vancouver doesn't get without ryan gold and without thomas muley if gold was in fine but so they're now covering this space and i think he was going to play on what june third ryan gold was going to return so we there was there was like they were like he might be back for the congev change come final i don't know that was june first so it makes me feel like we will never see him this season, which would be really, really unfortunate, but it does feel like Vancouver is still competitive for the supporter shield. They are competitive alongside a number of other teams. One of them being FC Cincinnati, who we talked for a long time on Thursday with Doyle about how they have

been successful and underwhelming and a little confusing so far this season. And then we got off and Tommy broke it that Brenner on his way back to Major League Soccer. It is a loan for the rest of this year with a purchase option after the season and at a time where we sort of said we thought they did as well as they could in the window in terms of there's not a ton of flexibility they've added some pieces they go and add brenner then they add marchuk after that for a potential wing back um replacement for yetlin who went in the other direction but they didn't go for each other they they they they it was discussed but like it obviously wasn't going to be the same it was like these are obviously going to be separate deals

uh because the the yedlin return was like 300,000 game and change it was essentially just covering what Cincinnati had already spent to buy down his contract this season so that opens up a significant amount of room and and getting Marchuk in I believe he retains the 22 slot with with a cash for purchase option I love that move I like what they like Brenner and Marzuk like that's that's an unbelievable deadline day and Brenner I believe the for purchase option is around five million and like i don't know man they sold them for almost double that and the player comes back a little bit more mature a little bit more understanding of hey grass isn't always greener everywhere else there were legitimate teams in brazil that express interest all summer and brenner's

coming on loan to cincy and he's not like he's giving up money to make this work which i think is a hopefully a sign of of maturity it is a sign of of his advanced maturity like given the relationships had soured that had been papered or had been resolved i was told even before these talks recommenced about him potentially coming back there was a phone call between brender and since he's front office it was just like hey i'm sorry for how i acted right like and and the front office same to him too right like it was a genuine thing and and even at that point like maybe they thought hey maybe one day but it wasn't like all right cool we're going to try to sign you in the summer now that was just like a genuine like hey i'm i'm sorry for for how that all ended so that was

the first step in a possible reconciliation and then just the circumstances working out the way they did and again getting him on a tam loan that you know hey hopefully they pick up the purchase option but they don't have to it's a no-brainer for me i would agree like there there's only one scenario that i come out of this being like that was a bad move because again i thought they were up against it and to get anything the the scenario is Brenner burned down the house on the way out and now he comes back in and if there's a problem off the field again you can't cry about it like you know what you're getting into you are the ones who experience this if it goes poorly off the field you're the one who chose to do this again but in terms of talent they're bringing in that late in

the window to add to what they have i think it's really very impressive can i give you my flag here sure i read flag you're going to say what kind of flag u s a Brazilian flag no uh so my red red flag on this is so Brenner at FC Cincinnati remember bought ahead of Albright scored eight goals his first year one assist and then once Albright took over and the team changed the way they played had 18 goals and six assists sorry Albright and Noonan took over 18 goals and six assists one of the keys to his success that second year was he played up top with Vasquez he played higher than Vasquez Vasquez had eight assists and Lucho Acosta had 13 assists The year after Brenner leaves, Lucho's goal from 11 to 19, the assist dropped down to 12,

not that far off. My point being, the team was built to create chances for Brenner, and Denke has won assist so far this year, and I don't know what that relationship looks like. I think of Vander will be fine. I think Orsano can fit, and, like, more talent and seeing if it fits together is better than not, but I don't know that I love the connection for all of them. I think Brandon Vasquez did a lot of build-up work for Brenner that doesn't exist there right now. I understand, but I would push back and say, well, Brenner had a real big part of why that was such an unselfish and complimentary front three.

Like, I'm pulling up the numbers now, but in, so 2022 was that was his last full season. He had like 18 goals, six assists. He was in the 86 percentile of assists in among MLS forwards that season. Brandon Vasquez was over the 88th percentile as well. They had similar, like, expected assist numbers. Like, you're right. Like, Vasquez was a, those two, that was a perfect partnership because both of them, particularly the running that Brandon Vasquez did in addition to his hold-to-play.

But there were games where, like, it was Brenner making the unselfish runner, Brenner making the extra pass. Like, again, you're right in saying it's probably a little bit more Brandon Vasquez, but, like, Brenner was absolutely a positive part of that. And, like, what we've seen from Denke, I think that that's a pretty good all-round player. and, like, maybe different than Vasquez. But, like, I think if, like, Noonan and the coaching staff are, like, all right, this is how you have to play off of, like, another, more like, true forward than, say, some games it'll be Origano playing as a second forward, some games it'll be Dado Valenzuela, like, hey, this is how, these are the movements. Here's a lot of video of Vasquez and Brenner.

Let's see what we can do. Yeah. And if Origano can be healthy and a part of this, and if Marchuk now is your option at right wing back, and if Orijano is playing left wing back, which he doesn't have to, angles playing left center back. You've got three players in those spaces who are all going to be plus chance creators in the final third for their positions. And that should feed enough of this where right now Cincinnati's struggle is finishing. I mean, you watch the NYCFC game this weekend. If it wasn't Evander turning from 40 and hitting shots, there wasn't really chances. Avander is so good that that is dangerous in itself, but they got out played by NYCFC at home,

who have been on a good run, but that's not supporter shield level. stuff and they need more support. And like to be fair too, like Lucho Kosa, like while he did add even more goals and like he's always been goal dangerous, he's more of a chance creator than a goal score. I think Avander, a vander can do both for sure, but like I think we've seen more this year. And again, I don't, maybe this is a direction from the coaching staff and or maybe it's just circumstances of like, all right, like, it's a better option if I shoot from this distance rather than something else. But like, Avander's going to need to tweak his game to being more chance creation. Yeah. Then, um, like again, the goal, it's been invaluable.

he's been great but it is going to take a tweak and i think a tweak that he can make that will make the team better if he plays more like acosa did in 22 than a coaster did in 24 you know what i mean uh phil boo-goo in the chat says crazy that fccicentine would get first round hell as real as it stands the top like eight in the east are chaos they are uh what is it called uh wood chipper a meat grinder which one is it keep going i want you to keep i want you to keep i want you to keep thinking of things are difficult i feel like we be right now this is a PowerPoint deck that's really hard for me it it is it is it is it is really a situation where right now where things stand like home field advantage is huge crazy there's no like oh we want

this matchup or we don't there is no matchup that you want there is not there's not one now messy being fully healthy might shift that for some people but the back line is still a train wreck for this team let's dig into some of the results of the weekend around all of that um So you have in the Eastern Conference, as I said, you have Philadelphia have now moved back to the top of the East, thanks to their 4-0 win over Chicago. Cincinnati falls at home to NYCFC-10, so they drop a spot. Nashville, who it felt like, okay, maybe they're fluttering a bit. They're probably behind some of this conversation. They looked at an Orlando team, who's in a league's cup semifinal, as well as has pushed into the top four and said, do you know how to spell the number five?

we're about to drop this on your face. It was Sam Serge and Hani Mukhtar from the start. Pretty electric overall from this Nashville team. When they're on, they are fun. They're as fun as anyone in MLS. Charlotte eeks out a win over the Red Bulls to close the weekend. And so everything shifts and everyone jumps. Miami with no messy and no Alba.

End up with a one-one draw at DC United with Baltazar Rodriguez. Of course, who else? with the late goal for them to get the 1-1 equalizer. Orlando getting crushed falls to five. And Columbus lost at home to the New England Revolution to fall into seventh place, NYCFC moving closer to them on 44 points, but only 26 games played. So they have a games played game in hand on Columbus. Miami has two to three games on everyone.

Columbus has a game on Orlando, Charlotte, who they could jump if they win that game in hand to tell you that it is chaos across the Eastern Conference and it's pretty delicious it's yeah and like it was a bit i was thinking about this mirroring like the supporters shield race but both the shield and the MVP race yeah like you look at the top four in the MVP race for me it's dryer one messy two and then i had a vander as like a top three and i think it dropped them slightly below because oheda has pushed up so the top four in the Sports Shield race this weekend. They all lost. And they didn't, or sorry, all did drop the points. And they all didn't do much. And like, again, it mirrors the sports show race. Both of these races

have the potential to be epic over the next six weeks. And I still think they're going to be. But like, this is how I want to talk about the weekend, except it's like, yeah, everybody but Philly Nashville dropped points. San Diego drops points in the Western Conference at the top to Portland in a zero-zero draw. And as I said at the beginning. So St. Louis. Minnesota did win. I'm sorry. I forgot to say them as well. Don't worry. We'll get there. San Diego, or St. Louis finished top of the West in their expansion year on 56 points. And San Diego on 28 games played are on 53. So they're going to crush that number. No matter where they finished in the standings, it's going to be one of the best expansion seasons in MLS history. And on just Dreyer right now is probably in first place in the MVP conversation. Minnesota got a really, really nice win, three one. against RSL, and then Vancouver, as we talked about, got the win. So they jumped up into third place.

Seattle smoked Kansas City to end the weekend of MLS action. Sanyang Min got his first goal, L.A.F.C., though, only a one-one draw. So they sit behind. Now on Minnesota, we talked about Joaquin Pereira, his future, where they stood, the Austrian international that they brought in going into the end of the transfer window. They then made even more moves after that, and the connection with Brera is to Turkey, which is one of the few leagues where the transfer window still is open. So now you have to tell us.

Do me and Doyle have to get rid of our Pereira jerseys? Again, he's been told he's not going. But again, if more offers come in, I will say the latest report was working with my good palet, Cesar Merlo. Mierda, so no verdad. Nice. Not true. but again that doesn't mean like dude if they if they come up with 10 million bucks or something like that it's going to be hard to turn down yeah but as of right now the 8 million bid not not happening and

again their intention is to keep them but like there is i don't like to be conclusive on anything that's open-ended here like yeah like there are other europe so just to clean out up a little bit most european transfer windows are open but they most of them close like september 1st turkeys is open an extra week so this isn't just something to watch over the next week they could get desperate over the next few weeks they brought in alexis farina on loan from sarah porteno in paraguay a 20 year old uh paraguay youth international attacking player they brought in nectarios triantis which is an unreal name uh Australian youth international because every Australian has to play in the U.S and we're not even talking Archie Goodwin's flow right

now he's Greek now he's declared for Greece like internationally Which is why, like, I had to edit the tweet like three different times. He's Australian-Uternat, but he's Greek. But he hasn't gotten called up yet because there hasn't been a window for him to be called up. So it was all very confusing for this tweeter. Okay. Well, he is another midfield option that they've brought in. And then they signed, I believe, a defender from Malo Alente.

Is that correct? No, a winger from Al-Aulente in Keniel-Michelle. So it was an active window for Minnesota. And in saying what me and Doyle are saying, because I'm on this train, as well is, they have set themselves up in a way where they could make the move and your hope would be that as a team gets more desperate as the window gets closer the number goes up and if the number even stays the same or goes up i would be shocked if they don't take it because i think they're set up pretty well to be able to continue to contend the only context around that that i

don't know is how when now they feel do they feel like okay but do you feel like it has to be T25 or is it a year and a half window that you want to take advantage of Walt Dainzinclair, his hair, and whatever else. Because if you're a fully win now, by the way, then Tending O'Shea, he still plays for your team. Yeah, I think it had more to do with, like, can't be both, I guess. I mean, again, I don't want this to look silly if, if indeed, like, the turkists offered it, like, but again, as of my information, as of the deadline day for us, like, on Thursday, and checking in again about it whenever the newest report came out, was that

the player was told they are rejecting the offers and like that's that's their stance right now and i will say in terms of the win now yes it has more to do about eric ramsie yeah right like i think um the assumption is he is not i'd be for this i'd be surprised if he's here next season and maybe that's a little too strong because that requires you know jobs coming open probably in the championship or somewhere else in europe and you don't know which ones are going to be right now and you don't know like what those situations are going to be like but he has been interviewed by several clubs in England. Like, this is a, like, Minnesota knew this when they hired him. They're like, the best case scenario is he's going to be awesome here and he's not going to be here for a while.

And like, so that's why I'm thinking like next year, I don't know. And so that's for me, like, he's a real driving force between not, not to say that they can't go and hire somebody else, but you know you have a really good coach right now and you know you have a really good team right now. And you know the team is in a good spot in a, in what is becoming a better top end of the Western Conference than I thought a few months ago, but still a wide open Western Conference. let's finish up here with a little bit of leagues cup conversation the semifinals are on wednesday night uh i am going away on thursday so i don't think we'll have reaction to this but we will be you'll just be telling you'll just be talking to your wife uh all your takes about it and family

hosted up at a bar outside the badlands in idaho being like can you believe that caesar iraaho is not the game changer that you thought he was going to be in a leagues cup semi final Excuse me. Can you put on Leagues Cup wrap up, please? Yeah. I would actually, can you guys throw on League MX? Because I want to see the teams that lost in Leagues Cup to see how they're dealing with the fallout of not being in a Leagues Cup semi-final. It's obviously what I find fascinating about this matchup,

which I've said a couple times, is Orlando in Seattle smoked the galaxy in Miami two weeks ago, and they were both on the road. So an MLS, and we're calling this an MLS game because it's an MLS game, home field advantage is obviously the biggest factor so miami and galaxy are home but the two teams that are coming in with a clear advantage are the two away teams and the question is what do we trust most who will be available on the messy side of things which is part of the conversation but messy has played in games that uh they have gotten smoked in against Orlando as well so it's not the full conversation and who we believe in in all of this for Orlando it was a pretty strong

squad this weekend but slightly rotated um tyrie spicer and marine both got starts it seemed to cause their left side of the field to fall apart and it was something that nashville was able to take advantage of and i'm not saying that as a knock fully to like their quality as players i think that was two unfamiliar players amongst an unfamiliar group in a bad setting and probably wasn't a decision preha would make again where do you fall in this orlando miami uh matchup yeah i mean again i If Messi plays, it's obviously significantly different. You don't come here for that breathtaking type of analysis, but that's the answer here.

Like, it's Orlando are the favorites if he doesn't play for me. But if not, it's going to be a hell of a fun game. Either way, I do think. But again, this relies on Messi's availability and what that availability looks like. It seems like whenever, even if he's carrying an injury when he does play, it feels like if he's on the field, maybe he's not 100%, but he's Messi, so it feels like he's 100% because he's so otherworldly. but that's what it comes down to for me like Orlando can absolutely go into Miami and win that game and

their favorites if Messi doesn't play but it's more of a toss-up if he does I think DePaul made his debut in that Orlando game but without Messi and so it was a little bit different I just think the thing for Orlando is they are there's actually the same thing we're going to say about Seattle they're very clean and dangerous in transition and Miami and the Galaxy are both teams that leave themselves exposed in transition and so It's not, I don't think Miami and the Galaxy have any other way to win this game than be really great at what they do. Where I think for Orlando and Seattle, they could control long stretches of possession or they could sit in and hit on the counter. I think they could win both ways.

And I trust that a little bit more. It's a little bold to pick both road teams. You know, the history of Leagues Cup, just going back decades and decades has always been a home dominated thing because you have the DNA of the fans bleeding over into the DNA of the players in moments like this because it holds so much value to everyone. Yeah. I will say, I think Orlando and Seattle face off in the final. I think Seattle hosts it.

I think Seattle wins the leagues cup. And I don't know that that defines either of their seasons. Like I think these two teams are too talented to not compete in MLS and walk away saying like, you know, if Orlando losing the first round or Seattle losing the first round of playoffs and wings league's cup i don't know that they can argue it was a successful season the galaxy are the only team that like this thing could save the year for bro if the galaxy win the third place game i know i think it saves her you like to get to concave champions cup it like i was speaking to somebody recently who was just like dude like we're dead last but my god we are we need to win one of

two games to be in the the concave chance of cup next year which is awesome and there is I don't even know where I'd find this information What happens if one of the other three teams Even if the Galaxy lose both games What happens to that third spot if like again I don't know the answer to this question but like I think it goes through something else play Yeah okay I think what would happen is

Galaxy are out on that front just in case anybody was curious So I think what would happen is like let's say Orlando Miami wins the whole thing and they win the shield I think that drops down to the next team in the standings The Shield spot goes down to that team and then same with MLS Cup, getting pushed off as well. I don't think Leaks Cup has the ability to, like, add more teams in later because of it. You can't change that history.

You can't change that history, which is why it has to be like that. Open Cup did, I believe. Like, I think that was a thing for sporting Kansas City as they were waiting to watch LAFC in MLS playoffs last year when they had an atrocious season and was hoping that it would save it for them as well. But I do think in general, it's a double header on Wednesday, so that's fun. It's just a bunch of soccer randomly. I think the atmospheres are going to be on point.

Like, Miami's going to be bouncing for this game. I would assume if Galaxy fans feel anything anymore, that this is their chance. I agree. There is also one more big game of consequence on Wednesday night that you haven't mentioned. PLBFC, Tom Boggart's Men's League team, is playing a final on Wednesday night,

so I just wanted Fletch, you know? So if I don't do... Good thing that we can't do a show on Thursday, because if we lose, God forbid, I probably just wouldn't show up in the show. I feel like there's a chance if you lose. I wake up on Friday in Idaho and you've just shown up in a car. You've just driven the whole way through two straight nights.

You're in South. Sorry, I'm not even going to be in Idaho. You'll be in South Dakota and you'll just be like, don't talk to. Oh, you'll meet me there. You'll be there. Yeah, yeah. Speaking of Idaho on the way out, as I mentioned, some legendary players,

Sophia Huerta, multi-time. Yeah. I had no idea. Emily Sam's, arguably the best centerback in NWSL. Maria Sanchez, who up until a few weeks ago, was the most expensive signing in NWSL history. Those three for a state like Idaho feel pretty locked in. Joe Cannon, as I mentioned, another big one as well. So a much more talented state of soccer than I would have expected.

Our friend Connor would like for me to mention Brian Farber as well. Sandpoint, Idaho native, Oregon State Beaver, former Carolina Railhawk, but 142 goals. for the San Diego Sockers in his indoor career and a little bit of time with L.A. Blues. Sweet. I don't have anything else on that player. And on that note, thank you all for being here. Thank you all for listening. If you're going to be watching the Leagues Cup, make sure to subscribe to our Patreon and get you access to our Discord. We're going to be in there talking about those games as well. And of course, any other breaking news as it comes out. Subscribe to the kickback committee if you have not yet to check out the latest episode.

We are going to have a guest join us for the NWSL show on Wednesday. And me and Tom are going to be talking MLS, USM&T, CANM&T, whatever else, as often as we can going forward, as fall is right around the corner. We are into the stretch running of the season. Thank you all for listening. We'll talk to you again. Very very soon. Thank you.