SoccerWise - US Soccerwise | Is the U.S. Soccer Development Pathway Working?

Episode Date: August 26, 2026

College soccer remains a major part of the American soccer ecosystem, but the pathway to the pros and national teams is changing. David Gass talks with Philadelphia Union sporting director John Scheer and former Florida State head coach and Washington Spirit GM Mark Krikorian about where college soccer fits now, what it provides players and coaches, and how the U.S. can make the most of multiple pathways to the next level.0:00 Intro2:18 The Subs Bench: Jedi, Puskas, 2027 World Cup & Yanks Abroad19:35 John Scheer: Why College Matters23:56 College Development & Scouting28:24 Blending Pro & College Pathways34:54 College’s Role for Coaches39:27 Mark Krikorian: The Best Path for the Women’s Game42:41 The Jump from College to the Pros46:01 Can the NWSL Develop Young Players?48:16 College Soccer vs. the World52:39 College Soccer's Development Challenges1:00:15 Can College Soccer Still Thrive?For the sharpest coverage of American soccer, we’ve got you covered:https://linktr.ee/soccerwisehq

Hey, everybody. Welcome back to U.S. soccer-wise, our newest show here on our channels where we cover the U.S. men's national team, the U.S. women's national team, youth national teams, everything going on around those teams every single week. We've got a ton of co-hosts with me as well as some big-time guests that we will be bringing in. We will often be talking about the news around those two national teams will often be talking about the games they're playing. Camps announced, but we have none of that this week. So we decided to go big picture and talk about some of the big, soccer conversations that affect the national teams and affect the growth of the players in those teams. So for today, we're going to focus on college soccer because it is that beautiful time of

year where we're about to start to see some leaves change. And I can smell the college soccer lo-fi streams in my nationals. And it makes me very happy. And it is a big conversation around U.S. soccer circles. What's the value of college soccer? Should there still be players who have national team potential that come through that system. Will it still affect the national team and players at that level going forward? So we're going to ask two experts. We have John Shear, who is the sporting director for the Philadelphia Union and was the Academy Director there, arguably the most successful academy in Major League Soccer, maybe in the

world. And a team, of course, that has Kevin Sullivan and Neil Pierre, Quinn Sullivan playing for them right now who all seem to have national team futures. He also was a coach in college soccer. So we're going to pick his brain about where college soccer stands in the development of elite men's players, where it stands in the landscape of American soccer. Then on the women's side, the majority of the national team will have played college soccer still on this day. So we are going to talk to someone who coached a lot of the players who are on the women's national team pool and then went and worked in NWSL at the elite levels and has a really good view across development and across both sides. And that's Mark Corcorian, three national titles as FSU head coach.

and then Sporting Director for the Washington Spirit for three seasons. We're going to get into those two interviews in a minute. But first, we're going to start with our new segment. And we're going to do so by bringing in our super sub, our head of production here, Gregory Roach. And you're going to start tossing questions at me. Hey, man. What happens when you bring a super sub and you go, you know what? Why don't we start him?

Then all the flaws get exposed. But with five subs now, Gregory, we could just take you out in the 30th minute. It's true. It's true. It's true. The game has changed. I'm happy to get the bump up to the top of the show. And I'm looking forward to the college conversation

because it's definitely an important one. So let's start in the subs bench. And we'll start with a follow-up from last week's subbench. And the reason I bring it up is because Cole Palmer is back and the Premier League is back. And the clip that was making the rounds was him actually, as it was said on Blue Sky, cooking three to six defenders in a beautiful run

that almost resulted in a goal. And then I saw the comment, which was they were being very kind because three of those six defenders were actually Jedi Robinson getting cooked repeatedly. Which then got me thinking we were talking about left backs, national team left backs last year or last week. We talked about Jedi Robinson and his eventual replacement. Yes, it's a viral clip. Is there anything to take away from that, Goss? Is Jedi Robinson on the decline? And if he is, is it something to be concerned about because his physical profile is one where you're,

you would go when it happens, it's going to happen fast. Yeah. I think this is a convo that I've been having for a last few years because he was so crucial to the 2022 cycle. The 22ndi-s cycle, I think there was some holes in the team. They were not able to control games in possession. So you have the flaws in Jedi's game, which is he fits a more aggressive physical athletic style front-footed, but maybe not as much intricate play inside in the field.

and then you add in what you're talking about, which is he has struggled with injuries and with injuries often come a decline in physical ability. And his number one skill set in his game is that physical ability. And I think it's completely fair to be worried about how quickly that fall off could happen because if that fall off happens, I don't think he can pivot to a different style or a different position to still affect the game at a really high level.

I think, as I said last week, that's why he stayed at Fullum. be comfortable, be in a spot that you know you'll play in if you can get back to your best rather than go somewhere, fight for a spot while also trying to get back to your best. And it is a club that knows his body better than a new club would. And I think those are the advantages. So, yeah, I'm worried about Jedi Robinson. I think anyone who's a U.S. fan should be, I say that in the context of, I think we have a ton of depth and great young players coming up.

And I think there are other players who can play that spot. But if you are solely saying Jedi Robinson is one of the five or six months, important players to the national team, then you should be worried over the next year or so, seeing where he's at. You answered the question. I had a quick follow-up, which is, when has it become a problem? Obviously, we're just off the World Cup. I mean, Gold Cup next year, are we that concerned about it?

Would we care about a Copa America run if that comes to fruition? When would it be an issue if Jedi is starting to decline? My guess would be he wouldn't be a part of a Gold Cup group no matter what. Right. I think if Copa America happens, that will be Portettino's focus of his best team. And so he'll spend the next two years camps that are full of FIFA dates off and on putting together that best 11 towards that tournament.

And my guess is the guys who could take that role, maybe a Max Arfston or maybe guys even younger who are getting opportunities or transitioning to that position, they get their chance next goal cup. So we probably won't have a sense of it until what, Nations League going into 28 and something around that ahead of that Copa America. Let's talk sicko, but in an expanded Normie type world, Middlesboro, continuing to lean into the bit of adding Americans is adding another American,

but this is an American that if you're an MLS fan or even a national team, casual follower, you probably don't know. And this is Rokas Pushkas. Pustas. He's been playing in Hajik Split. He is a Croatian and American dual Nat. But he's come out pretty clearly saying, I'm actually Ukraine as well. He's a tri-nat. He's come out pretty clearly saying I'm waiting for the U.S. to call me up to the point where Ukraine, when he played in Ukraine for Split, they booed him because of those comments. So he's pretty not on the fence about this isn't a fight. Now he's going from Split where he's.

He has been good, not great, but kind of injured and kind of needed this transfer to Middlesboro, where he's going to be playing the championship with three other Americans who were already there. What does this say about maybe his future? Are you excited about this possible potential addition to a midfield for the national team? I mean, Aidan Morris, Sebastian Burrhalter and Rokish-Busch gotz, like, that's all you need. We don't even need, we don't need a national team coach because Middlesbrough is just doing it for us. Yeah, I think it had been time for him to make a move. It made sense when he went to Hodgick split in that.

He had the passport. It's a great youth development club. It's a club that will put young players on the field. Give them opportunity. And those injuries, as you mentioned, have sort of stunted opportunities. But he's been in with the U.S. youth national teams. He's been good in those games. The one thing you get when you watch him is he's a dog.

He's everywhere. And while he can play higher up the field and create chances, like the big thing that pops out is he is going to harass players. He's going to lead press. He's going to work really hard. So I think it's a good fit into the championship. We mentioned last week, Borough, or a possession dominant team. So if you're going to show your attacking qualities, it's a good team to do it in. And it's going to put them under a microscope for Mariso Pochitino,

because I assume someone is the Middlesbrough watcher in the USM&T coaching staff, and we'll be watching literally every single game that they play. It'll be fun to hear the MLS haters going. We don't want any MLSers in the national team. Okay, great. It's all Middlesbrough. Is that better for you? You ready with Champos soccer there?

It's going to be fun. Let's talk about the women. We've got a couple of topics for the women's national team. And I'm going to just be honest. I'm learning the women's game. So I'm going to play the role of, hey, gosh, school me. I know the women's World Cup is coming next summer. I know it's in Brazil, obviously.

Schedule dropped. This is not the teams, but this is where they'll be playing on what days they'll be playing. So I guess the question that we would ask now, before the draw happens is, are there any of the groups that you have, that you have seen

where it's, you know, and to bring it into American terms, there's, is there a group that has a New York, Kansas City, Miami kind of hard travel schedule

that maybe the women don't want to be put in? This is the thing to remember about Brazil. And if anyone was that was around in 2014, we'll know this. Brazil is a country,

it's a gigantic country. Huge. It's the fifth largest in the world, both from population and from size. It is a, for the most part, all the resources are in the south. And because of that, what happened in 2014 was the USM&T picked a base camp because they wanted facilities that were of the quality that they felt the players deserved.

And that there was nothing north of Rio and São Paulo to do that in. Then they got drawn into a group that played in Manawas for Sifay and Natal, which was the furthest travel you could possibly have. And they ended up traveling between the two. So that's like the big fear. It's not just, oh, am I in northern cities and I have to travel there? There aren't a ton of great facilities up north for you to be based out of. Like, Resefe has one first division team.

Fortaleza has a first division team. Like the game is not spread out in Brazil. The resources are not spread out. And I remember Manaus because they were like, we're on the edge of the rainforest. And the problem is you can't base yourself there because it's so far away from everything else that it makes no sense to be based there. But you don't want to end up being based as far away from there as possible in case you end up in that group. And one of the things that we laughed about and we covered here at soccer wise and kickback or at first touch going into the World Cup was like Spain was based in a prep school in Chattanooga because the facilities were elite. Switzerland was in St. Diego.

None of this is the norm. This is why people wanted the World Cup in the U.S. Because when you go to other countries, the quality of facilities that you need to run a national team World Cup camp doesn't really exist. the average professional soccer team in Switzerland does not have a facility capable of doing that. So the U.S. is rare. And that's the part that I want to stress is for the U.S. women's national team, they will most likely have to be based in the south of Brazil because the facilities in a Manaus literally just don't exist. And you're not going to build them just for a one month World Cup.

And that was supposed to be some of the lasting legacy of 2014. And it never happened. So in saying that, group D, you have games both across Rio, San Paulo, Rece, and Fortaleza. So as far north as you can get, and almost as far south as you can get, and there are two groups like that where you'll get pulled around.

And so your fingers crossed hoping that you end up in a group that is geared between Porto Alegre all the way up to Brasilia. Salvador, not as bad, but Fortealeza and Recife are both hosts as well, which are as far north as you can get. And then the other thing I'll throw out

is the openers in the Maracana. That's for Brazil. The assumption is the U.S. will be, a top seed so they wouldn't be in that group and the final is in the Marcona. So if you're thinking about going to Brazil, I went in 2014 and I left Rio and it's the biggest mistake I've ever made,

just go to Rio and hang out and wait for the U.S. to get to the final. I like this. This is Rick Steves, David Gosses, Brazil. We can throw travel in there. We can do a little travel guide. I like that and I appreciate you doing that. So now in the back of my mind, I'm thinking to myself, okay, group D is probably the group.

You want to avoid for travel reasons, even barring group of death things. Having said that, not the end of the world. Teams, you saw it in the Men's World Cup this summer. Teams that travel, it stinks. It's not ideal, but it's not a deal breaker. You're just hoping maybe we stay out of Group D. Let's stay with the ladies because the last two things are more,

are really specific about Yanks abroad. On the ladies side, school me, gosh. NWSL versus, let's say, the W League. is there a we're told on the men's side oh they have to test themselves abroad is that a thing on the lady's side and if it's not is the reason to go abroad for the adventure of going abroad and so my question really is the nwsl compared to let's just say the rest of european women's soccer is it is it equal is it a step down is it a step up so opt to put out top 30 teams on whatever formula they created and in the women's game on the club side.

And there were 12 NWSL teams in the top 30, none in the top seven. So normally the conversation ends up being Barsa, Byron, City, Chelsea, O.L. Leoness, maybe PSG, maybe Wolfsburg. Those are the seven best teams in the world. Gotham were right below them. I don't know, Kansas City, Washington, San Diego were just below them. So if what Alyssa Thompson did was she was told, we know, and this wasn't making the decision. But Emma Hay said to her, Chelsea's best team in the world, if you want to challenge yourself every day in training and fight for your spot, go to Chelsea.

Now the flip side is if you want to be challenged every week in your games, you stay in NWSL because the competitive nature, the parity is higher. The parity is higher in a league where the quality of team, the median is higher than any other league in the world as well. So it's more competitive in NWSL, but the quality of teams are still high. It's not lowest common denominator. And I think for the most part, most players can find the challenge they need playing in NWSL. There are the exceptions. One is great, which is Fallon Tullis Joyce, doesn't get an opportunity in NWSL, goes to England, finds a spot at Manu, becomes a starter. That's awesome, right?

That's just more spots for players to play. Some is necessary for life development. Like that's one of the pieces of this. And it's part of what we'll talk about with Mark McCorn is like leaving home and being on your own and being a leader and like all of these life experiences that there can be value in going to these teams. But most likely the quality of soccer is a drop off unless you go into one of the top 10 teams across Europe. And you're probably only getting into that team if you're already a star. So the question becomes should you be the face of a team and have all the pressure on your shoulders in that way? or should you try and fight to get into a team in Europe?

And Kenza Dali said it on our show last year. She said she played at Aston Villa. She said the season starts, you already know the top four teams. Like it's already over. So the challenge that you face in that environment, not playing for one of those teams or playing for them is way different and already sort of set up. And it's a different challenge.

So I would say NWSL is the best league in the world. And I think for the average player, you're going to get the experience you need in this league. It doesn't even factor in the money aspect of it. And I know you guys have touched on that many times of, okay, then this is why NWSL kind of needs to have these floors and obviously raise the ceiling so that they can keep those players like Trinity Rodman in the league and then continue to be a top league in the world.

And I think even more important than the Trinity Rodman combo, which is a big one of like the stars and the big names, is sort of the like middle ground. and I think of like right now Gotham Center Midfield, Savannah McCaskill and Jalen Howell. Jalen Howell, we've talked a lot on the show. We mentioned last week on the border of getting back into a national team conversation.

In the men's soccer space, if you're that player, you go to Europe because the money's better there and then the view of you is better there. I think NWSL's strongest and the national team strongest if that player stays. So the money has to be at a level on the salary side where the players right in the middle, it's worthwhile for them to stay here

rather than to try and take a risk to get maybe you go to Germany to try and move up to a Byron or a Wolfsburg. And it would be better off to keep those players, I think, here. We're going to finish in Scotland, Goss, with the men. Yes, I know. And it kind of makes sense, too, because you were talking about, okay, we have a creme de la creme, and then we have a really big drop off to the next level. And that's Scotland in a nutshell. I was triggered by this thought with the Kevin Kelsey news.

Obviously, he's not American, but he is going to Rangers from MLS. And I was thinking to myself, when is it okay for an American with national team aspirations to go to Scotland? We just saw this week the Mattai Akambone loan to Dundee United went through. I feel like that's a good move for him. He wasn't getting any minutes at Bournemouth. He's still on the books at Bournemouth, but now he can actually play week to week in Scotland and hopefully be a starter. Is it good for Austin trustee to remain at Celtic in Scotland? Cameron Carter Vickers has fallen out of the national team conversation

and you could argue it's because he stayed in Scotland at Celtic. So at what point is it okay for an American to play at Scotland and what point is it for an American with national team aspirations to go, I kind of need to shoot higher than Scotland even if it's Celtic or Rangers. So cliche answer off the top will be something you'll hear both John and Mark say, which is each player is their own situation and everything's different. I think to me, if you can get into a Scottish team that plays in Europe, you can European competition, you can prove on that stage that you belong at a higher level.

And if you need to be seen, that's an opportunity to do it. Or if you're a player who's already in Europe, who can't get playing time and an opportunity to get 2,000 minutes is on the table for a team that will have fans that will play in big games because you'll play against Celtic, you'll play Rangers, you'll play hard, tips, whatever. I think there's value there. But like, JJ Williams is not getting into the national team because he's going to score a bunch of goals in Scotland. he's a Scottish league player.

Like he's going to do great there. He's going to score 15 goals because he's a bowling ball. And I've covered him since he was at Kentucky. But that, you know, this league is not one where you prove you're a national team player, but it is one where you can prove that you're a European professional. And you can then from there get into other clubs around Europe. And that should be the context that most players go there under, which is why I'm fine with young players getting alone there for a year

to get to get their feet under them to get opportunity. but I don't think it's a jump for players. And if you are the star of an MLS team, if you're a star, if you're Diego Luna, that's a drop down. So it's not worth doing that, unless you're a situation where Celtic had made Champions League,

which they didn't because they lost Alaska and Samadeneran, who's not a national team player, who's scoring goals, which shows us the level that all of this is at. But this is always fun. One of my favorite segments of the week. I can't wait to do it again next week. But for now,

let's go to our conversation with John Shear, sporting director of the Philadelphia Union on the future of men's college soccer. Hey, Dave. How you doing? I'm great. I'm excited to have you on. I'm excited to talk about this. I know we've talked in the past about college soccer and how it still has, you know, a lot of strong qualities for a lot of players. We'll get into elite players. We'll get into national team stuff. But as you look from your role now, where you're working in the professional side with a background in college soccer, like what is the value of college soccer?

still and where does it sit in the landscape of how your job works? Yeah. First of all, thanks for having me on. I would say that college soccer has a, it's a really important part of our ecosystem. And we're such a unique country in terms of geography, in terms of, you know, how many different places there are soccer players playing in this country. And I don't think any academy's job, any pro academy's job, is to get every decision right by the age of 15 because, you know, as much as we think we know, nobody has a crystal ball.

So I think the college landscape is a great opportunity for late developers, for additional opportunities because development, as we know, isn't linear. And it's certainly has evolved over the years, but it is something that I think ourselves in MLS and other clubs across the league are going to keep a, a close eye on here. So you built, you know, you helped build up the YSC Academy and what you've done at the Philadelphia Union. Is there a moment where you talk to a player and you say, hey, we think college is the best idea. Do players come to you? How does sort of the process work now in the pro player pathway where where college sits in a player's potential career? Yeah, look, I think

there's always going to be need for different pathways. I think, you know, for us, we want to try and retain our top 16, 17, and 18-year-olds because of the amount of contact time that we're able to have with them across the second team and then across the first team in terms of training units and then also obviously games. However, we talk about the college pathway and option all the time with players and families. We have a director of college counseling, Ian Hennessy, who used to be the head coach at the University of Delaware where I played. And he does a great job managing relationships with all the college coaches. And we just try to lay out, you know, the pros and cons of every opportunity here. But we found a lot of value for players

to continue to matriculate and then build value for them to hopefully come back to us and perform, but also for other professional clubs in the ecosystem. So we're invested in the American player. We want to do everything we can to help drive that forward. And again, college is certainly the part of the story in this way. So one of the stories in college soccer over the last few years especially has been the influx of international players as more American players stay in a pro pathway and maybe skip over. What do you make of how the college games changed and maybe then the value that it still holds or doesn't hold to the American soccer ecosystem? Yeah, I think there's a lot of talented Americans playing in college soccer from what we see. And then obviously there's

been, there's always been a contingent, but certainly has evolved over the years and certainly a heavy contingent of internationals, which I think is a positive in the sense that it creates a professionalized atmosphere for when players do matriculate to the professional level, there's going to be different cultures, languages, backgrounds. I do think it's something that we're certainly keeping an eye on as relates to some of the potential rule changes and I know that college soccer is moving to, you know, your clock starts when you either graduate or after one gap year. So the hope is that maybe the age will continue to bump down here and not go the opposite way where you have a ton of older players playing, you know, a year or two.

27-year-old Germans against 18-year-old Americans in a conference championship. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So one of the questions, and obviously this is something, that Sasha Sarovsky and his group and college soccer is working on for many different reasons. But one of the big sort of complaints about college soccer has been the calendar and the inability for players to play games over the course of a full year. And, you know, as a rookie, you come in and you've only ever played a three and a half month season at most if you go as far as you can.

What do you make of the structure that college soccer exists in and how maybe it could help players be more prepared for professional ranks? Yeah, look, I think if we're serious about it. college soccer being a development environment for the professional ranks, which it still is. I think the calendar has to reflect and look more like what we're trying to prepare the players to play into. And I would say there's, you know, the resources that college programs have,

especially now are better than a lot of pro clubs. If you look at their facilities, if you look at their infrastructure, their staffing, there's so many quality college coaches, head coaches, assistant coaches, scouts, you know, can say that some of our best hires at our club in recent years have been from the college ranks and that's been targeted. But I think in order for players to fully benefit and try to continue to develop in the way that we feel they can and should, I do think it would be ideal for the, you know, that would be the first change I would try to make to college soccer is just try to have it mirror a 10-month calendar as much as possible.

when you talk to a player about the potential of going to college is the list of things that can help them there does it start with the quality of soccer does it start with the physicality is it start with maturity like what is sort of the view of where it can sit for a player's experience yeah it's a it's a development runway so if you look at a young goalkeeper it's actually great the amount of games they actually play in a short period of time but even a centerback if they're not going to you know feature for the first team. They're playing against older players, savvy, savvy players. So I think

it certainly can provide them with an environment where they're getting tested by quality players and some future professionals. I think there are meaningful games with real consequences, and that's important. There's crowds. There's environments. They're playing under the lights. And part of being a pro, it's not just technical and tactical. It's about how you carry yourself. It's about your psychosocial characteristics, about your mindset. It's a lot. It's a lot of the lives. It's about what you do off the field. You know, student athletes grow so much in the dorms and how to manage themselves sometimes for the first time

being away from home. So there are a lot of behaviors that I think we feel that, you know, players can take and student athletes can take from the college kind of pathway. And we talk that through. But a lot of times it's just trying to accelerate their development by getting them into another pathway in hopes of coming back to the pro ranks at a different time.

And what is the scouting experience like at a pro club now of looking at college soccer for players? Yeah, I think the beauty of MLS and it's continuing ahead this direction is every club is able to have an identity and invest where they think it makes the most sense. So, you know, college soccer is heavily scouted by MLS clubs. We continue to scout it, although we pour a lot of resources and energy into our academy. we're honest about this. But, you know, looking at the super draft or even outside of the super draft,

are able to sign players for MLS Next Pro Team. And every single year, you're seeing players that not only help MLS clubs, but even examples of players that are then able to go and matriculate to Europe. And if you look at this past World Cup, I think, you know, a great data point for the country is that almost a third of both the U.S. men's national team in Canada's roster played in the NCAA in the U.S. So that's a pretty powerful statistic. And again, it's not the most optimal pathway for every single player,

but certainly will remain a part of our landscape and an important one at that. Two of those players that came out of the, that came out of Philadelphia Union Academy, Matt Freeze and Mark McKenzie, they were both players who were in the academy in a pro player pathway, went to college. What did you see in the moves that they made when it happened and how that sort of helps maybe educate for potential moves for other players. I think two individuals that are high performing, not just on the soccer field,

but more importantly off it in terms of how they carry themselves, even from a very young age. And I think, you know, the ability to have that movement in between the youth ranks to college, back to MLS next pro now to MLS, I think that's really important how we bridge those pathways. but, you know, I remember with Matt and Mark, the time was right. They felt like it was a no-brainer for them to come back. And when it aligns with the player, the family, and the club, I think that's when you really, you know, are able to find a good formula where they don't feel like they're sacrificing or giving

and conceding anything too significantly by choosing one pathway over the other. You mentioned the stats at the World Cup. I mean, Villarreal is going to have two college soccer players on their lobby roster. over the course this year, but then you have people who say, like, this is a waste of resources, we shouldn't be looking to college. Where do you think the future stands in terms of, let's say, 2034, a U.S. men's national team? Do you think there will still be players who have come through the college ranks? I do.

I do. And I still think that professional academies in MLS are going to continue to be a bigger influence of being able to keep and retain the best. young American players. And I think that's important. I don't think that's a bad thing. However, as much as that's going to happen, you're still going to have players,

you're still going to have late developers that still find a way, given the geography and the size of our country and some of the inefficiencies in the scouting process that are able to pan out and, quote, unquote, make it through the college ranks or a different pathway. And I think it's, you know, certainly every club has to focus on where they want to spend their energy

and put their time. But for a club like ours and a club that values the American player in a really big way, I think it's going to continue to be something we're going to be really on top of. I talk about this with people all the time, that it is this catching spot for these late developing players and look at the career, Tim Riem went and had it and players like that. Do you think the need for that is because American players come into the game later and they need it? Or is this something that if it existed in France, I mean, France might be a bad example,

but Italy or Ukraine, that those players would also, there also would be a lot of late developers that they just never find. Yeah, I think the fact that there's so many internationals that are looking to come over that have professional backgrounds that have played at some of the best clubs in the world and are choosing the NCAA as a way and a vehicle to continue their education, but also ideally try to become a professional. And I think that kind of shows us.

And again, our country is so different. in so many ways. And I think it's not about choosing like the academy and the pro player pathway versus college. I think it's how do we blend them together and create, again, greater movement between both and more flexibility for players to continue to choose the best environment that makes the most sense for them at any given time. This might be the third rail, but should professional academies, professional teams be

more closely aligned with colleges, whether it's picking one school that they push their players to or having an influence on the way college soccer runs itself? I think you start to, it's a slippery slope as it relates to this. I think, you know, ultimately, the better relationships that you have, you're able to leverage these in terms of friendlies in the off season, in terms of trying to have a better understanding of, okay, if this player chooses to go to your school, what does that pathway look like? This is what our plan looks like.

I think the more connection and communication and collaboration that we have with the college coaches who, again, are fantastic in what they do. There's so many college coaches that, you know, I'll look at their environments and see what we can take and different things that we can pull from that environment. But I think those relationships are important, but I'm not sold that it needs to be just one university that we're pushing and trying to stash all of our guys too.

Because, again, at the end of the day, there's a financial kind of motivation here from a lot of different stakeholders and might get a little messy. Besides the change in that calendar, is there any big changes to college soccer you would, if you were sort of king for the day that you would make? Yeah, I think, again, the ability for a player to sign, you know, an MLS-nex pro contract, for example, there might be greater flexibility from what we understand of maybe they play a year or two contracted.

And if it doesn't go above a certain threshold, they're then able to go back and play for a period of time for a couple years in the college ranks. And I think that would allow the MLS clubs to make more informed decisions of players that were signing and maybe not sign them to long-term contracts and agreements. And then also would allow for the colleges to know that they're not going to be kind of left at the altar at the last second and having a player that they had committed

and put a full scholarship into maybe, now leave at the last second to go to an MLS club on a contract. So I think finding ways, you know, to, again, just create. create more flexibility in terms of where players can play and the opportunities they're able to get. Because all the pressure right now sits at a 17-year-old, you have to decide, are we giving them a pro deal? They have to decide if they go to college and you're saying, is there a space where if you play lower division soccer only for under X amount of minutes, at 19, you can then go to college on the same scholarship that they were recruiting you on two years earlier?

Exactly, exactly, yeah. And it's obviously under certain threshold in terms of what they made. and maybe it's their actual expenses that they were able to kind of accrue. But if you look at what we're investing in some of our high school academy players, in terms of our education at YAC Academy, in terms of residency for those that need and the soccer, a lot of times we're investing more in the high school student athletes than we would be for players that are on MLS next pro deals.

So I think that would be something innovative that I think the college landscape could benefit from, but also the MLS clubs as well. The other piece that I sort of always talk to people about around college soccer, and I'm a fan. So, you know, I called Northeastern Games when you're Delaware teams. I remember. Or knocking us around and putting us to the sort. But is, you know, you've mentioned coaches and scout.

Like there's this landscape that exists, facility, space. There's, you know, 200, 300 plus soccer programs that exist that we can't just rebuild and say, let's go pro rel and have 500 clubs that are going to come up. And it seems like for what Phillies built as well, there's a lot of value in people who have gotten experience in the non-playing side from college soccer. Yeah, you know, our now academy director who came in as the head of Academy Scott and Paul Killian came from the stops at the Naval Academy in UCLA.

Ben Moan, in-room first team assistant coach, worked under Jeremy Gunn, one of the top college coaches, and runs this program like a professional organization. Chris Harmon, one of the best young coaches in the country from my vantage point and our interim second team coach, worked at Old Dominion and played at Old Dominion. And I think it's a great way to kind of sink your teeth into wearing a few different hats. And now a lot of times when coaches come into the academy, it's one role. It's such a specific set of roles and responsibilities.

And sometimes the young coaches don't want to step outside of that box. And I think that's what helped me grow as a young coach in the profession and have to manage different things outside of just coaching soccer. And things start to get easier then once your roles become more defined and sharpened. So it's a great point. And I do think college is a great place to look for prospective players, but also employees for the club as well and staff members. Well, I could do this all day. I know you're busy. so I would be remiss if I had you on a U.S. soccer show

and didn't ask this question before we go. Are we ready to have the Sullivan brothers sort of bullying up on Messi at the international level, Copa America 2028? How excited should fans be? Yeah, it's an exciting time to be a fan of American soccer and certainly we have so much belief in Kevin and Quinn and all of our young homebruns.

You can say Neil too. We don't need to believe. Yeah, yeah, and others. So, yeah, we're just trying to create the best possible environment for for these players to develop in and continue to push them to fulfill their dreams. You mentioned sort of on that college soccer side of like making the decision. How do you feel like the club has sort of found its feet in terms of the decision, not for borderline players of college or MLS Next Pro, but MLS and starting and being in the ranks? Obviously, we've seen Kevin. It's been a year now.

Neil went out on loan. Now he comes back. We've seen Frankie Westfield have a different path. How do you feel about that process you have of what goes into making the decision of one of players ready for that pro opportunity? Yeah. At the end of the day, we can create the best environment and our young players can train with pros.

But if it's just training and they never get an opportunity to play in games, it's obviously only going to go so far. And it's not about just handing out opportunities. Every player, regardless if they're coming from our academy or just signed from elsewhere. Everybody has to earn what they get. However, I think we've been really intentional about what our decision-making process has been over the last few months. We've recently hired a technical director to help in terms of our process of what are we doing with our top young talents and making sure that we're connecting with all the key stakeholders across the club to

make sure that we are doing everything to develop our young players. And that's not just the academy players that's our you 22s and our full roster but we think that winning comes out of effective player development and we're not perfect we know we have to improve and we're focused on how to again take steps forward to to help improve our process well it was awesome talking john it's always a pleasure congrats on the success right now at the philadelphia union and we'll have you on again soon so that i can pick your brain about a whole other set of topics you don't want to talk about. Yeah. Thanks so much. Dave. Great seeing you as always. Huge thanks to John Shear for taking the time to chat with us. Obviously, on the

men's national team side, the movement has already started through pro ranks for players for the most part, not to be from that background, although as John mentioned, almost a third of the USM&T and Canadian men's national team minutes came out of NCAA graduates. But on the women's side, still some of the top leagues in the world are the SEC, the ACC, and the big 10. And who better to talk to than someone who has won multiple national championships, someone who has worked at the highest levels in NWSL with U.S. soccer as well. You know him very well from a long career in the game. Mark Corcorian. Mark, thanks for being here. No, it's a pleasure, David. I appreciate the invitation and the opportunity to speak with you.

I mean, who better? Three national championships. The thing I didn't know, two Division two national titles as well. And of course, former president of soccer and general manager at the Washington Spirit. So you have bridged. the gap between the highest level professional as well as college soccer. So I want to start by posing this question to you. If there is a young American player whose dream is to play for the U.S. women's national team and play in a World Cup, is the best pathway for that player still in 2026 through college soccer? Yeah, great question. And I think for every young player, it's kind of a different situation and everyone's family needs to evaluate things

that can make sense for them. For 99% of the population, I say go to college. I think that college is the avenue. We've seen so many players over the course of time just develop. They develop as players. They develop as people. They develop maturity. They develop leadership and so on. So I think that the majority of the young ones out there are to be going to college. I think that they're going to really grow and gain from that experience. But that upper 1%, I think that they have a decision to make. And, you know, as now the monies have become a whole lot better, it's a little more enticing. And we saw it happened years before on the men's side, and now it's happening with the women. So, I mean, it's easy to look at the Thompson sisters. And, you know, it's a lot of

and see two classic examples of kids that made the right choice, right? They decided to forego college, come into the professional game, and both have thrived, and both are now in with the national team and doing very, very well. But that's not the story for everybody. And I think that one of the concerns always is, you know, are you doing it because it's the best thing for you, or are you doing it because you want to keep up with the Joneses?

And if it's the second one, boy, I don't know. I'm not sure. If it were me with my daughter, I would certainly consider having an opportunity to go to Stanford and have an opportunity to go to Duke in Virginia and Florida State and many of these other places where you really can combine a wonderful education and a wonderful soccer experience with a very good coaches, very good players, and a growth opportunity.

So you moved from 16 years at Florida State University, three national championships, a number of all-American players who have gone on to play with the national team to the Washington spirit in 2022 and helped build up the roster that went to the 2024 final and then right after you left the 2025 final. So success at both levels. And I'm wondering when you left FSU and went to the Washington spirit, what does the gap feel like between the quality of soccer or the way players play from the highest of college soccer to the highest of NWS? I think that the biggest.

difference. And we see it on the world stage. It's not just, you know, between college and the professional level here in this country. I think it's a difference between the rest of the world in the United States. What we see here is these players and the speed of which the game has played is so athletic. It's just wonderful, wonderful athletes and so on. And I think that a lot of players that have played in Europe, when they come here, they may or may not have success. And part of the reason they are successful in Europe is the speed of the game is slower and it's a little bit easier. But when you're having to defend against Shawinga and Vanda and Trin and all these other players,

you need to be athletic or you're going to just continue to get beat or get cards or whatever. there is a difference in the level between college and professional here domestically for sure. And I do think that the biggest thing is the physical piece. So when these young players are physically capable of going in and playing, then they're able to succeed. We see a lot of kids every year come out of the college ranks and go into the league and are very successful. So I do think that that's possible. I also think that there are some youth players that are able to,

go college and come in and be successful. But I do think the athletic piece is a really important part of it. And I'm going to give you two examples of the exact opposite, though. And I'm a big fan of Claire Hutton, and I'm a big fan of Riley Jackson. There, too, in my mind, that have succeeded in, you know, despite not being the best athlete. I mean, they're good athletes, they're solid athletes, but their quality is as a technician and tactician. And oftentimes we're looking for the Europeans to come in and be these really smart playmakers

and so on. So the reason I bring that up is because I do think it is possible for a kid that's not the fastest kid to still be able to come in and be successful in the NWSL if they have other dimensions that are top level. And those two have some very, very good qualities. do you think that there's a situation where a player like a claire hunt and a raleigh jackson wouldn't have made it in the past because the college game demands a level of athleticism or you think they would have thrived anyway wherever they landed i think that would have been fine i think that both of those players would have gone into college and again really kind of depends on which school you choose and uh and so on but i think 99% sure that they would have gone and killed it in college they would have been very very good and um and and they would have had an easy, smooth transition. I wasn't sure when they decided to forego college how easy the transition was going to be

for them because they aren't the paceiest players. But boy, they are smart and they are technical. Where do you feel NWSL clubs are at in terms of their preparedness to help young players develop? Because while it's always going to be on the player, now there is this space for NWSL teams to bring in 17-year-olds to bring in young players. Do you think the league is at a place where it's ready to develop the next set of stars? I think that that's still to be determined. You know, I think when we look at this at the end of the day,

these head coaches come in and their job is to win. And if they don't win, well, they're not going to be there for too, too long. And the idea of developing a player for two or three years down the road or however long it is, oh, that's nice. And in theory, it sounds great. Okay, we're going to do this. but I think you really need to have a big picture group where you're willing to look at this and say,

all right, we're going to use so many roster spots on the core of the team, but we're going to use a spot or two on a development player or two, and we're just going to focus on the development piece and make sure that's clear to the player, that, hey, look, it's not really your time right now. You may get your time, and because of injury and so on,

you may be forced to go in and play, but we really look at you as being the future. And it's going to be a little bit of a project. And again, direct, open to honest conversation with the player. But I'm not sure that I would say yet that the NWSL has become a development league. I'm not sure that I've seen that yet. But that's also not to say that players aren't developing. They certainly are developing, but that may also be the natural playing with better players,

against better players, against faster players, day in and day out. And the one thing that we're all fairly convinced them, and again, I don't want to put words in your mouth is when we look at the NWSL compared to the rest of the leagues in the world, the parity is like no other. I mean, you look at the bottom teams still have a chance to beat the top teams. When you look at France and England and all of those countries on the women's side, those bottom teams are getting shellacked. They have no chance to beat the Chelsea's and Mansettys and those teams.

You're not putting words in my mouth. I say NWSL is the best league in the world, so I go farther than that. helps as well. One of the lines I've actually used in the past, I stole it from someone. Someone used to say the SEC was like the fifth best soccer women's soccer league in the world. ACC would be in there as well. Where do those levels rank compared to all the international leagues and as you're maybe scouting and you're saying, okay, you know, obviously for last year, Taylor Suarez, best player in college soccer, best player at FSU, Jordan Dudley as well, where do they stack up against players as you look at.

at the Bundes or German League and now Italy and Denmark and those types of leagues. So I think that when you're looking in the Danish League or the Swedish League or even the English youth players, they have some really good players. But so do we. I mean, there's a reason that over the course of time, the U.S. women and the U.S. youth teams have done very, very well. Now, I think it's become obvious also that the Koreans and the Japanese and the Spanish and French have also grown in the youth

game and then they become far more competitive but I do think that we are still producing players that are going to be very successful at the international stage but so are a lot of countries. There's a lot of kids and you don't have to look too far you just look at the NWSL

and you know you look at the the best 11 or whatever. There's a number of international players. They're going to be part of that every year. But there's also a lot of Americans. I mean, who wouldn't want Sophia Smith, Sophia Wilson on her team or or Mal Swanson or a train?

There's just an awful lot of very good players around the world. And fortunately, we're getting a lot of them here. There are a lot of good ones in some of these other countries as well. But we have some good ones domestically and internationally. It feels like Spain specifically one of the big successes has been sort of opening up the resources that existed on the men's side in terms of the pathway in youth development into the women's game. And it's helped the, you know, the country jump from also ran to World Cup favorites now every single time. Can a U.S. system built through college soccer still, you know, compete with that? and what do you think maybe the runway is of how long that that can compete?

I do think there is a place for the college game in this whole development scheme, but it may be a situation where there's adjustment to the way we used to think. Right. In the past, this was the only platform for development. You know, Mia Hamm and Christine Lilly and all those players, they all went through the college system, and they all won World Cups, and they were all great players. and so on.

But the game has continued to evolve. And the rest of the world, people keep telling them. They're catching up. Well, they've caught up. The rest of the world is caught up in many different locations. But I think that the college game can help to provide depth of quality. So there are players that are out there that maybe they are not ready to go and be a pro. Maybe Washington or Gotham or whoever wouldn't look at them now and say this is the right player.

But I think when I look back at it over the course of the years, one of my earlier jobs was I was a coach for the Philadelphia team in the WUSA and the first U.S. Pro League. And when I look at Abby Wambach coming out of college, who was very good, I wonder if she hadn't gone to college if the times had changed. And back then had just gone to be a pro, how that would have gone for her. And I think that, you know, at the University of Florida, she had a chance to go and develop and mature and become the person and player that was the foundation of who she later became. So I do think that there is an element where the college game will provide great balance and a lot of quality depth to these players that are also going and just jumping to the pros. There's so many elements that go into the conversation around college sports. right now with potential government changes and funding and all that stuff. Let me start you with this one, which is in all of what we're talking about,

the format of it still being just a fall sport and not being able to play games across the full year or train as you normally would all the way from August through May. Is that format still sustainable to help develop players and help develop pro players? I think it is, but I think it really depends on the coach, the program, the institution, the commitment, and so on. When Sasha started bringing up this idea of having the full-year model, he called me and we had a nice conversation, and I said, you know, Sasho, I really believe that in our program of Florida State, the spring is the most vital time in the development of these players.

And myself and my staff, we spent so much time with video and on-the-field training and individual sessions and all those things, we saw the players go from a certain level. Every spring take a huge jump in their performance. And it kind of goes back to the question you asked me about development before. My answer to you was these head coaches, they're worried about winning. We're not worried about developing. And if you're worrying about just winning and one game after the next and after the next, is that development going to happen?

And I felt that the spring was the time where we could really take these. players and go from whatever level they came in and jump them two or three steps and they could get better and better and better. And we saw a lot of kids. We had so many kids that came into us that weren't on U.S. soccer's radar. And by the time they became a sophomore, they're playing in the U20 national team or they're playing the U23 national team. And I think that was through development. And we weren't the only ones doing that. Right. So for me, if it is about development, I think that if the coaches look at that spring and take it serious, then the development can happen.

But if they look at and say, oh, well, no, today's golfing day, or whatever it is that their hobby may be, then I think it will continue to the gap will get bigger in terms of their quality in the development. Then the next question I was going to ask is the other piece that's changed is the movement of players with transfers, as well as the ability to leave and go pro and not have to wait until you're a senior year,

it feels like that puts college coaches closer to the pro setup of, well, it's win now, right? If I put together a good team, I don't know if these players are coming back. Does that, has that, have you seen it negatively affect development for players across college soccer? I have a great deal of concern about this transfer situation

because I look at some of the players that we recruited over the course of time. And I look at the patience they had to exhibit. They came in and maybe they weren't playing as much and they'd come in and we'd sit, we'd show them, or we'd talk about it or whatever, get better, get better, by their sophomore year, their junior year, now they're starting, now they're the captain of the team or whatever.

But that only happens with patience and persistence. And I think these days, you know, if a kid's not playing or not playing as much as they think or more importantly, oftentimes is they're not playing as much as mom and dad thinks they should. Well, that's when the transfer button is getting pushed and these kids are looking at other opportunities. So I am concerned for it. I do think that it's not a positive in how this is going in general. Now, there are some kids that certainly it is a positive that they can go and have a different experience with a different coach

and learning grow in a different way. But by and large, I think that there's a lot of character traits that are being lost by as soon as something doesn't go quite right, I'm just going to transfer. And they get free transfers. Some kids, four schools and four years. Yeah. Yeah, it's much different than it used to be.

I'm sure you don't miss to operate in that space. Yeah, I don't know how I would have done with that. again, it's easy to sit here on the sidelines not being involved in it and make whatever comments. But I think it's a very tough environment for the coaches that are all having to deal with this right now. One of the big conversations always style of play. I think, you know, there's a feeling that for the U.S., the advantage often is athleticism, physicality. You mentioned speed of play. Does college soccer being a pathway maybe help even entrench that more because there is so much of that style in college soccer?

And maybe that is a connector that an NWSL Youth Academy couldn't create? Do you think that's one of the positives? Could be. I do think that over the last number of years, there's a lot of college soccer that's now very attractive. There are coaches out there that are working very hard to teach a more sophisticated brand of soccer. and we're seeing that with players. And I do think that's also the case with some youth clubs. I think that that's also part of the success of some of these players,

like Claire Hutton and Riley Jackson, that they have had the coaches that have the quality to understand that, you know, we can teach them a more sophisticated brand. It doesn't have to be all the time Rockham Sockham. It's nice to have that opportunity to go and be more physical than the opponent and be more athletic than the opponent. but what's plan B? And if you have both the technical quality

and the tactical sophistication, then you can probably be a far more valuable player. I do think that there's so much competitiveness in the college game that it does prepare you for the NWSA. I think both physically and psychologically, we always felt in the ACC that if you can survive the ACC and get through this grind, and get yourself to the college cup.

You've tested yourself pretty hard. And I think those players are battle tested. Yeah, I mean, we talk with youth development all the time. It's so hard to find high leverage moments for players. And you could go through an ACC and talk about UVA and all these games and the opportunities where you get into, let's say, a college cup, you've played 10 high leverage games in the fall for, player who it's really hard to find those moments coming up in your career it is and i think that's also

just part of the the process and part of the development right i mean when we look at the youth game those kids are they're training at an extraordinary um level for their age and stuff like that but you know they're not training every day it's not a situation where they're uh training with that level of player and against that level of player every single day so you know with a lot of the college coaches, that clever enough to realize that when a youth kid comes in, well, you can't have them do what the kids that are seniors are doing. Those kids that are seniors have had three years to get their body ready to, you know, compete at those at that level. You know, for the freshmen, maybe you're going to have them do 75% of what it is that the seniors are doing. But I do think

there is an awful lot of value in both the youth game and in the college game still. This is a deeper question and a load of question, but on the surface level, you've been around these conversations, you know, more closely than anyone else. Is the economics there for women's college soccer as it's constituted now to just continue on and continue to be a sort of difference maker? Yeah, I don't know how the economics of all college sports are working right now. So I think there's a much bigger question, a much bigger picture that, again, I've thought for years with all of the monies that these big time football players and basketball players are bringing into the university, that they should have got something beyond what they were getting. I kind of thought, okay, education and all that, that's great. I mean, it's certainly something that for 99% of the athletes will serve them very well. but when you are filling a stadium with 70,000 people plus the merchandise and the concessions and everything else,

there should be a chunk of change that are going to the ones that are the ones on the field, you know, getting beaten up. I just don't know how it can possibly be sustainable for all of these folks to be spending all this money on NIL and then they have, you know, the facilities, upgrades and everyone is looking for and trying to demand. and it just it doesn't seem sustainable to me, but I'm not an economist, and I don't know all the numbers, but it just seems like we're giving an awful lot a lot of way, and I just don't know how it all works for long. And again, you know, the non-revenue generating sports, which are most of the sports, you know, if you want to be good, you're giving the money, and you're going to have a chance to go and get some good players. But I don't know if it's sustainable.

Yeah. Yeah. None of it makes sense to me either. So I'm not the only one in that boat. Let me have you play Prognosticator here. So 2027 Women's World Cup in Brazil. Let's say 2037. No, that's not how World Cup work.

2039, 12 years down the road. If you looked at a 26 player, U.S. women's national team roster, what do you think the percentage of those players? will have any background having played college soccer at that point. Less than 20%. Wow. And that's because that's just that top, top bit of player that will be a national team player? I think so.

You know, it may be, you know, maybe 25%. But I think that it's going to over the course of time. And again, now you have the USL as well. It's not just NWSL. You have USL. And there are some very good college players that came out and went directly into the USL. So now you're kind of minimizing, shrinking that pool even more of very good college players

because now you have more options. And I do think that the Canadian League is going to draw some players as well. And, you know, I think that this idea of kids going and playing as professionals, I don't think that it's going to slow down. I think it's more it's going to continue to accelerate. It's more a matter of what are the teams going to, to do to make sure that these kids have an opportunity to grow and develop. On the flip side, if we, let's say we look at the same time at an NCAA national championship,

do you think we see the trend even closer to the men's game where teams are heavily international, or do you think there's still that bulk of American players? I do think that we're seeing across many sports, right, golf and tennis and so on, a lot of international players. So I'd be surprised if the number of internationals were to drop at all. I think that they're going to continue to look at this. And in some of these different countries where the young ones still aren't professionalized, still coming to the United States, a great opportunity.

You get to come here and you get to go to school for nothing, and you get to work on your degree, and they give you your food, and they give you a place to stay. And I mean, I think there's a lot of benefits from it. and, you know, the U.S. is a wonderful place to be. We're talking about this and looking forward, I guess the question becomes, is college soccer a strength for the U.S.

in the sort of fight to remain, the top women's soccer program on the planet? Or does it become sort of an afterthought as you think about it? I think a lot of that's going to depend on what, the powers decide. And for me, there's been, in my mind, there's been a bit of a bias from international folks that have come in over the years that look and say,

well, college soccer, it's no good or whatever. And I think it's a little shallow and short-sighted on that part. When you look at the quality of players that have been developed through that system, there's a lot of. top, top, top players over the years that have gone through that system. Does that mean it has to stay the same? It doesn't have to stay the same. But I think ignoring that and not giving these coaches their due and their programs they do is a bit of a mistake. When I look around this country and I see, again, I'm, you know, what I think about Steve Swanson, I think about Erica Walsh,

I think about so many of these guys, colleagues that I've had in the past, they're excellent coaches, just excellent. And those players that go to those institutions, they're learning, they're growing, and they're gaining. So I do think that, again, there will be the opportunity for these players to gain in the college game, again, for the right kids. the other pieces you went from a long career at fsu to the washington spirit and help build an uber competitive roster some college players in there some international players a lot of talent from around the world do you think there will be more development of non players of coaches scouts athletic trainers all this other people around the game that will come from college soccer through 10 w sl is that

the pathway well right now it seems as though the trend is to bringing more international coaches, which is a good trend. I mean, that's okay. But there are so many of the college coaches that have such a good situation. And they all, everyone's getting paid a decent salary

and everyone likes where they're living. And, you know, they understand the landscape and stuff. And once you go into the professional game, it's a little bit ruthless in terms of, well, if you have a bad season, you may be out of a job where in college,

I think that it's not at that point. And there's far more security in the college game. And I think that most of these college coaches at the most elite level, really they realize and they appreciate what they have. Emma Hayes has a couple FSU graduates, a couple of players that you coach that she has to sort through to figure out her roster. But it's going to be an exciting year as we get ready for the 2027 Women's World Cup.

It will be interesting going down the road as we continue to cover college soccer here as well as NWSL and the players going to the national team what the connection is. But we really appreciate you taking the time, Mark, to have this conversation. Give us a little bit of insight and we'll have to have you back on when you come in from the lake next time. Well, it's a pleasure, David. I enjoyed sharing time with you and exchanging some thoughts. So good luck to you. And, of course, give my best to Jordan. Jill and if there's something in need for me, just let me know.

Huge thanks to Mark for taking the time. He was out in his cabin in the woods of Maine and he still took the time to come and chat with us. So I really appreciate it. Huge thanks to John as well. Always big thank you to Gregory for helping put all of this together and to all of you for listening. We appreciate you being here. We'll talk to you again. Very, very soon.