SoccerWise - USMNT Edition: Luchi Gonzalez Behind The Scenes National Team Camps

Episode Date: November 17, 2024

The USMNT has a big match coming up in CONCACAF Nations League play vs Jamaica on Monday. To get you primed Luchi Gonzalez joins David to talk about how a national team coaching staff functions. He talks through the process of scouting the players, picking the roster, planning the camp, and some big CONCACAF away day stories.Soccerwise Live 2pm ET Every Tuesday/Wednesday/Thursday on Youtube/Twitch/Twitter

All right, everybody. Well, you remember last week, we talked MLS playoffs in our coaches corner with Luchi Gonzalez, former head coach of the San Jose Earthquakes, as well as FC Dallas. And Lucci joining us again here, but it's an international week. And Lucci, the assistant coach for the USMNT at the 2022 World Cup. And over the course of a year, working with that team is going to take us behind the scenes on the US side a little bit as well. Lucci, how you doing? Good, David. I'm doing well. Thank you.

MLS playoffs, the international break in between we know how angsty that is for all fans as well as for the teams and the coaches we know ricky pooge already complaining about it within minutes of winning his game against the colorado rapids uh and now we go into this international break and you know we've seen the u.s already defeat jamaica on the road getting ready to play them at home in St. Louis as well. Lucia, let's start personal point of view, and then we'll get into the process and the team and all of that. But for yourself, being hired to work with the U.S. men's national team, being able to go to a World Cup, what was that moment like for you as someone who had grown up in the system?

Yeah, it was special, right? It's special. My background, which we discussed last time, is my father came to this country to find opportunity. He came from Lima, Peru. My mother was born and raised American. So I grew up in South Florida and in a very kind of Hispanic American community. But I had opportunities in youth national teams, U16s.

I played in a U17 World Cup. I played in U20 qualifiers. I went through the college system and played here. So the national team was always in my heart. You know, when I had a professional career in club, I wasn't good enough to get a sniff at the senior level in the national team, but I certainly had amazing teammates like Landon Donovan, like Kyle Beckerman,erman you know like Tim Howard guys that that I played with that that certainly represented our country at the highest level in overseas in Europe and especially in World Cups and special moments like World Cups so to do it as a staff member as an assistant coach learning so much from Greg Berhalter and that high performance staff, being a part

of qualifiers, which we had not made the World Cup prior. So it was, you know, we felt the pressure in qualifiers this last World Cup, and we were so proud to do that. And then to represent the country at a high level in the actual World Cup, play good football, take it to England. Maybe we didn't win the game. We tied. But I think everybody remembers that performance,

and we certainly outplayed them and showed that we can play at a high level and getting out of the group, so also getting the results that were necessary. Disappointing to lose to Holland in the next round, but certainly proud, an amazing experience, learning again from Greg Berhalter, and just going through that is a journey and a life changing part of my journey that I'll never forget. One of the things that I stress a lot when we talk about these things, and I think it's really hard to comprehend is how different coaching a national

team is from coaching a club from being with your players every day, all the time to the start and stop nature, which, as we've heard, some coaches enjoy and some don't. And that's part of sort of the divide you start to see as some coaches are national team coaches and some coaches want to coach in the club scene consistently or a reason why some maybe swap between the two. So I want to talk a little bit about the experience of coaching in a national team because I do think it's unique and interesting. The U.S. team, we're going to use this camp as a slight example, but we're going to go into your experiences of where you were. They come in, they played at Jamaica on Thursday night,

and then they'll play at home in the U.S. on Tuesday night. So that's the span in between an away game in CONCACAF and a home game. And I want to know what the experience is like. So let's start the last two weeks. As the staff, what are you doing when the team's not in camp? And then how are you preparing to get ready for home and away camp? Yeah, absolutely. The national team preparation is very different than a club preparation. So obviously, in a club situation so obviously in a club situation you have a formal pre-season and you're preparing a team for a long uh season a long year right and there's going to be eves and flows to that uh and players will that roster will evolve and change as that season goes on but it's those

are your group of players that that are under contract for the most part um and and you you you have to really plan kind of mid and long term. In a national team camp, you know, the preparation is quite different again because, you know, you don't have the time with these players in preparation. You don't have a formal preseason. You know, you don't have time to work with a lot of things on and off the field. And it's hard to build really strong bonds and relationships with the players. They themselves with each other uh player to player so you have to really be creative in the

ways that you get everybody on the same page uh leading up to to international fixtures so you know the experience i had uh with the national team was it's it's a lot of you know off the field um monitoring right so we we as a technical staff, we would spend hours a week in our scouting. So we would do two Zooms a week and just catch up on players. How are the weekend fixtures? How are midweek fixtures in their club teams?

You know, in MLS, in Europe, in Champions League, in their league play. And really just know the entire pool of almost 100 players and divide it between the technical staff following them and watching every minute of every game they're playing and tracking them and seeing what their form is like and what position they're playing and how do they look physically, mentally. There are moments where we're actually in contact with each player.

Each staff member had some different relationships with different players, mentally uh there are moments where we're actually in contact with each player right each staff member had some different relationships with different players so we would we would kind of divide that up and just check in on guys and and you know greg led that through example he was the hardest working and he knew even if he wasn't assigned certain guys he was catching games and glimpses so he knew just as much as the technical staff and how these guys were doing and which was amazing how he was able to put so much time and energy into that. But it was a very thorough process of just scouting, analyzing and seeing what moment these guys are in as we get as we approach a camp, because camps are all about moments and who's healthy, who's in rhythm, who's informed, who's starting, who's not, why and who who's going to have the positions in the and the needs and the rhythm and the confidence that we need going into this next camp and each camp was always

different but it was it was a similar core always um you got young players coming through proving themselves you got experienced players that you can you know you can count on and depend on that have been been through uh difficult situations so um you know that that's it's the preparation there's so much work done before you even step on a on a training field because you what do you get two three maybe four trainings before a nation's league game before a qualifier i remember us having a qualifier um where we're you know we're we literally had two trainings before one of our biggest qualifiers in azteca against mexico that we that we ended up tying right um and it was a huge result for us but

we had two days to train for that right from from uh bouncing from the game before that and it's not a lot of time so you have to really have your scouting right so the scouting is huge it's number one um bring in the the right players for the right way we want to play approaching these games um so because the zoom there's going to be a scouting zoom and then there's a tactical approach zoom right so we're going to talk about how we're approaching the next opponents or opponent and opponents we would we would prepare two three games in advance depending on the window how many games uh it wasn't just the next game we had to kind of anticipate the next game was the most important but we would anticipate the

next two or three games and then what players are we bringing in to approach each game with the way that we want to strategically so um and and you know and and you don't have a lot of time tactically to work with these guys so it's about keeping it really as simple as possible, giving them really basic attacking and defensive principles, put them in their shape, give them a few priorities and patterns of how we want to break their pressure and attack them and get in behind, attack the box. How do we want to press after loss and put pressure on them immediately when we lose the ball?

If we can't get pressure on the ball, how do we get in our defensive blocks? Is it a high press? Do we go into a mid-block? What does that shape look like? Keep it really simple in each phase of the game. Walk through it in training and then let them play. In training, what we found is do general things in your trainings leading up to these games.

Don't go overly tactical or too many stops and starts. These players, they want to actually – they're so excited to come into camp. They're so excited to see each other, to catch up, to represent the country. And the last thing you want to do is bog them down with too many tactics. So, you know, I had a great experience of just bringing them in, keep it simple, let them play let let them compete in small set of games let them compete and even some 11s aside in controlled spaces and and kind of get that banter going that competitive competitiveness going and then we get on the same page and be

a unit approaching the actual game the tactical stuff um you know we had dewan jones on on friday and we were talking about you know coaches and difference and he talked about meetings and then on field a little bit right coaches can get their points across in multiple ways some's in training and then some outside of training is any of that conversation happening outside of camps like when you talked about communication with players are you sending them tactical ideas or team breakdowns of what they're going to see before they get to camp? Or is all of that held until they're on site? Yeah, it really depended on player to player.

If we knew, for example, you know, Chris Richards is most likely going to get this start coming into this camp, you know, I would say a week or two leading into coming into camp. Yeah, there would be, you know, maybe BJ Callahan would have reached out and just spoke to him for 20 minutes just said hey just keep in mind this is something we're looking at but it was it was not too common you know we want the guys to focus on their club because their role could be totally different so we would give them little ideas like hey i really almost kind of encourage what they liked what we saw in their club situation say hey chris richard

i really like when you shifted and you covered the depth when the ball was played in behind. And you did a great job reading that, anticipating and dropping early. So Cuomo's kind of grabbing things that they were doing with their clubs and knowing that it would be in line with what we're looking for with the national team. We wouldn't just throw our national team ideas at them when they're still in their club focus, their club fixture. The best way they can be ready for the national team ideas at them when they're getting when they're they're still in their their club focus their club fixture the best way they can be ready for the national team coming into camp

is to do really well with their club no matter how what system they were playing whatever style of play but they had to be focused on doing that well and then it was up to us to kind of grab the similarities and just note it a text a quick quick video a quick phone call so it just depended it was very uh kind of hey we get on the zoom greg greg was pretty clear about hey uh hey luch can you reach out to hey you know shack more from dallas can you reach out he he's doing this thing in asheville we really like it just encourage it hey okay boom you know that was quick and simple uh maybe someone like walker zimmerman i'd get two in one you know like so there's there's like little moments but you don't want to distract them from their focus and what they're doing in that moment and present in that moment which is their club team

uh the camp the roster that's one of the things it's obviously the biggest conversation point from the outside because that's your first indication that a national team is coming and of course that is the big debate point of like who will be in the group and who will not? What's the process and the conversation inside the staff of like, how you put together the team that will play? you know, system do we believe we should be approaching these games in? And then creating depth charts in that. Is it a 4-3-3? Is it a 4-2-3-1? But, you know, maybe it's 4-3-3, but we're going to defend in this 4-4-2 idea. But, you know, it's kind of having these attacking and defensive formation and shape ideas first in the phases as we approach games, and then creating depth charts uh of our whole

pool of players and then in those depth charts we'll go into really detail um every uh every week we were going into detail and following up on the on just the scouting and how these players were doing and then little by little you started to see the pieces fall into play um and look you get you get thrown uh curveballs right there you we we always had to deal with a few injuries right before camp and that's the whole point of having a clear depth chart and the next man up or that we see has the profile and it has the rhythm is healthy has the confidence experience or not right it's like you didn't want to you know go into a world cup qualifier and play in mexico with too many young players that haven't been through that process.

But you certainly want to include the ones that have courage and we believe will step up. You need to have maybe a balance of experienced players. So those depth charts were huge. They always evolved. It was a living thing with each game, with each camp. But it started with your tactical idea, with shapes and formations in the phases, and then build your depth charts from there and then be decisive when it's time to make decisions. You mentioned sort of the ideas around, okay, once you get them in camp, let them play,

let them get to know each other again. You have few training ideas how planned out is the let's say seven days where the group is together like is there a calendar with every hour of what the group will be doing whether it's on the field or off the field yeah so my role in the national team i was an assistant coach but but my most important responsibility was the training plan and just having a clear periodization and a methodology of how we're going to approach training and what we're going to do in the actual training, right? And what are our progressions? How are we going to, what is our warmup? What does the pre-warmup look like?

What is our activation so i got to coordinate with the physical staff medical staff uh the timing the the the uh the actual things that they're going to be doing so that we can adjust our warm-up time because maybe our warm-up is only 10 minutes it doesn't need to be 15 maybe it's only seven eight minutes because of what they're doing in activation so so there's there's things there that we got to have really clear uh and then it's going into hey what is the the technical aspect you know um what is what are we doing in terms of small you know is it are we doing a positional possession game is it directional is it not is it general um are we going to create are we doing something functional with actually uh players in positions are we going to end with a game are we not so just every every training

and every moment leading up to to that was pre-planned we knew what they were going to be uh before coming into camp but in a general sense like we had we knew we would do this type of training and these progressions but the very exact details uh of what players would do what and and what you know what are the the and what are the constraints, what are the spaces we're going to use. And those final details were always – those decisions were made by the head coach, Greg, and myself and the staff, you know, I'd say the day before training. And then any adjustments of the players coming, hey, I remember we were going

to training with a clear plan and, hey, these two guys are going to have a different plan they need to get on the bike they're still flushing out their last game they just played 90 minutes two days ago they can't be in so now oh shit we just lost two numbers in our training that's a huge adjustment we got to make in all of our all of our progressions in training uh but but it's okay we were dynamic and we we knew how to make those adjustments quickly uh and find any final decisions uh And any final decisions that needs to be done, the head coach would make those. Same as our scouting, right? We have a process as a staff. It's very collaborative.

We prepare. We're prepared. And there's a saying that Greg would always use internally with the staff and the players is have a plan and make a better plan. So we were always prepared is have a plan and make a better plan so we were always prepared right to to execute a plan but then we needed to ready be ready to adjust and make a better plan um you know and if if we needed to so greg would make final decisions on on personnel and player roster and those decisions but in a collaborative process and then the same goes for the training where we would make it would be collaborative and then final decisions by by the head coach you brought up periodization at the beginning you were talking

about with clubs it's different than with national team and obviously what's going on right now is a little bit different in that the u.s doesn't have to qualify for the world cup and they're preparing for it but in in your circumstance and in what you went through you said you know there was pressure to qualify for the world cup from the outside though we're talking and i know you went through you said you know there was pressure to qualify for the world cup from the outside though we're talking and i know you're a coach so you might you may have been different um they'll probably gonna make it what are they gonna look like at the world cup was there is there sort of a long-term short-term goal process that you're talking about in terms of the way you're you know out, what you're putting the team through in training

to have them slowly develop over time into something, but also win the games right then? Or is the pure focus, we got to go get a result in Mexico, a result in Costa Rica so that we can keep moving on? Yeah, it's a bit of both. I would say mostly focusing on the next step, being present with what's the task ahead. There was always a view of the horizon.

I would say there was always an eye on what the future could look like. What could this roster develop into with more time, more work leading up and into the World Cup? We did have conversations of those things i'm sorry um but you know i would say the when when you when you're when you're you know your main priority is to qualify you have to make being present and the next game the most important and so that that was our approach you know but i would say you had you had people on staff that had a development background you know um you know i would say the u.s soccer does pride themselves in in making sure that there's always

players coming through the system you know you always had that domestic camp you know in january uh that would be all mostly all mLS players and you got really got a good look at uh at players that are that are really important in the domestic league um you got to see some of the young players coming through MLS academies in the MLS teams first teams youth national teams first teams and and those those were great opportunities in windows so that that's that's an example of the U.S. being kind of forward-thinking in their planning and preparing a full group because it's hard. You know, when we're here in CONCACAF trying to qualify,

our players, our European-based players are doing a lot of traveling. You know, they're coming from really far away and it's logistically impossible to have them here at every at every camp. So I think there was a lot of that thinking about the youth, thinking about the next players coming through the next prospects. And and then but but look, ultimately, it was about putting the players on the field that that we believed could get the result. You know, Pepe, you saw him last night score an important goal versus Jamaica. You know, there's been some injuries in the front line, and he took advantage of his opportunity last night.

I know he's not starting consistently with his club, but he's in a good situation where he's coming off the bench, he's playing in a really good team, in a good league, scoring goals. He looks confident, and he to to show that at the at the highest level on the senior national team so and people forget he's been involved in the national team for over four years and this is a this is a 20 21 year old right and that's that's incredible this on the show on friday he's the fourth usmnt player to score his 12th goal before the age of 22 and it's him landon um i think josie on that list as well it's the greats who's promising young age it's very promising and

and peppy was a an 18 year old that was just starting to score goals with fc dallas and then all of a sudden um there's a conversation you You know, I was a part of SC Dallas. I wasn't part of the national team, but there were conversations. Greg was calling me and, hey, what's going on with this kid Pepe? This kid looks like he's really dangerous. He's active. He makes runs. He presses.

He's efficient with his finishing. You know, and we are in a situation where we need goal scorers on the national team. So I said, look, he's not proven, that's for sure, but he will score goals for the national team one day. It's how soon do you want him to get started. A month later, he's scoring one of the most important goals in Honduras for qualifying. And it's like this is about getting the business done and it doesn't

matter your experience you know or your level or or where where you've been it's where you what you can do now and where can you take us and and i think uh i think the national team shows a good balance of that you know you don't always get it right you don't always get it right but i think there's a good balance of it you can't just have uh peppy and a bunch of young players in a hostile environment in CONCACAF trying to qualify. But if you put Pepe around a Weston, around a Christian, around a Tim Rehm, around a Matt Turner, around a Walker, then you have a good balance of youth and experience, and he can show his best with giving the opportunity, him and many others. Look at Tanner Tessman Testament now getting opportunities and, and going through his, his steps. He's another player I knew at,

at FC Dallas, you know, he came from Alabama and joined the academy at a young age and, you know, his life was the game and to see him now playing in Leon and now a part of our midfield and the senior national team. And, and it's just, it's great to see that these young players, they're given opportunity if they can show that they're ready to perform. I think Greg said it, you know, the U.S. puts out videos from behind the scenes.

And I think when you were announced, Greg said, half the team here has already played for him. The other half grew up under him. So your roots go pretty deep with a lot of these players and all of these pieces and it continues to as players like Tanner Tessman continue um to come through and obviously it's a very young national team as you said that's been one of the things I think for a lot of people they see the clubs they play on and the talent but it's tough in some of these environments because you mentioned away in CONCACAF it is not easy it's

also not something so simple to train for. Like, if you don't live through it, it's tough. Let's talk about an away experience. Like, what is the travel experience? Who is on the ground before you get there? How do you organize the lifestyle once the players are on the ground? And how do you manage the going in and out? Because I think we've seen now, it seems like for the most part, the U.S., even if their first game's away, you'll do a camp in the U.S. first to some area that's easy to travel from. Then you go, then you come back.

What is sort of the coaching staff's process of dealing with away at Honduras, away at Jamaica, away at Mexico? Yeah, it varies. You know, we tried to always create a home field advantage in the qualifiers, in the games that were played in the States, right? And there were some amazing environments that I think allowed us to do that. Everyone remembers the game in Minnesota, which was a bit crazy, and the freezing temperatures.

I've never coached ever in my life, a game or even played a game. I know I played in Sweden for a year and, and I don't remember being that cold, you know, below 10, negative 10 degrees. So it's, it was a crazy experience, you know, and even we as a staff and the players who are sitting around questioning, like, is this even right to play? But at the end of the day you know uh the u.s has a diverse uh climate and diverse population and and it's a big country and we took full advantage of that situation honduras didn't want anything to do with that game right and we wanted everything to do with that game even though we knew it was going

to be there was going to be adversity and it was going to be miserable right with the temperatures but um so we we try to create that home field advantage through this this the that whatever that city was that fan base um the stadium and then the climate and the same is because when you go down to san pedro sula and you have to play in their stadium in the middle of summer it's it horrible humidity. It's 100 degrees, and the grass is four inches thick, and it's impossible to play at your best, and you have to adapt and find a way. So we wanted to do our own way of creating advantages in our qualifiers. Why not? Play the game.

And I thought we did that well. People don't know the inside of this, but when we played Mexico in Azteca, a really important game that we needed at least a point to continue to go in the right direction in qualifiers. And, you know, that game, you know, we had probably no joke, half the team and half the staff had the stomach flu 24 hours before that game.

So when we landed in Mexico, we had a nice meal and it didn't settle well for half the team, staff and players. And I'm talking trajectory, vomiting and things in the stomach that didn't sit well. So constantly using the restroom. I remember staff were in the middle. We had one meeting we were doing with planning training, but there was so much staff coming in and out. It was impossible to finish this meeting. So finally, I remember Greg and I just looked at it. We're like, hey, just us two.

We're going to finish this training meeting and we're going to make this meeting. So finally, I remember Greg and I just looked at it. We're like, hey, just us two. We're going to finish this training meeting, and we're going to make the decisions for you because the coaches were coming in and out because they had to use the restroom so many times. So it was crazy because even though we knew that this was not ideal, there was this way of just kind of laughing about it and making the best of it and just knowing that you know this is the way it is and we shouldn't be surprised by it and we we need to push through so look that we approach that

game with probably some dehydration and some lack of fluids and or some weakness probably you know but somehow the guy and i and by the way on the bus ride to that game it was supposed to take an hour it's you know it's mexico city and even though your hotel is only eight miles away it it took us no not joking an hour and 45 minutes to get to the stadium an hour and 45 minutes of traffic when it was supposed to only take an hour the the police escort they didn't do their job well and and and purposely so you know they were trying to make this very difficult um so we were trying to get there extra early we ended up being late and we were scrambling to just get hey everybody get dressed everybody let's get the but the players and the staff you know we stayed hyper focused

we we laughed it off and we we played a really good game we played a really good game we found a way so you know those are the things that that are not easy in conca calf you know conmebol similar you know you saw argentina down in paraguay and that's a hostile environment and those aren't easy travel situations i'm sure there's a lot of noise there around the hotel in the evenings and making things really interesting you know when we stayed in el salvador there was a lot of there was like fireworks in the middle of the night and for randomly for no reason and then you know that's going to keep some of the players up and the people up. So those are the things that you just, you,

you got to laugh off and, and not get frustrated too frustrated with and, and, and find a way to persevere. This has been really fun. I think for a lot of people to learn a lot, again, this is one of those things where we all talk about camp roster, like all the buzz terms, but being inside of it is completely different. So I appreciate you taking the time to do this. Love hanging out. Let me finish with one, which to me, the World Cup sits alone as an experience and where, you know, I watch back old games, not U.S. games, any game.

Like, I love the World Cup. I just think it's such a special thing. I went down to brazil 2014 that was my first senior world cup as a fan i've never been around or on the field but i just remember being in the stadium and hearing the official anthem the first time and the flags coming out and being like whoa this is the world cup you were on the sideline for one um that first game wales in the world cup what do you remember what was the experience like just being a part of it yeah incredible right when when you hear your anthem um and played in

that environment and knowing what's on the line and this is a moment that this will be remembered in history in soccer and football history uh however it goes. So, you know, it's really important. And this is, again, this was credit to Greg leadership and the national team high performance staff. As a staff, we said we've got to be the best role model for our players of staying present in each moment. Really staying present. Don't worry about yesterday. Don't worry about our second or third game or what's to come later. Don't worry about yesterday. Don't worry about our second or third game or what's to come later. Don't worry about tomorrow.

Really focus on today and make today and this moment the most important. And then we can be the best versions of ourselves, and we can be prepared to deal with adversity, with a good or bad referee calling, with injuries, with logistical challenges, the games challenges right um so an incredible moment to hear our to just be there standing with the players and the staff hear our anthem and know that the whole world was watching and this is our opportunity to to uh do what we love to do right and so i thought we started that game really well. And second half, Wales put on a little bit more pressure

and earned a PK and ended up tying it. But I was proud that we were on the front foot, you know, majority of the game. And I thought the tie was a fair result. Two different styles. We had a bit more control of the game and possession. But Wales were very dangerous in their vertical attacks and their pattern play with their verticality. So, you know, it did feel like a loss after that game.

You know, I remember we reconvened as a team after, and it felt like a loss because we were winning, and we gave it up in the 80, I think 82nd minute or so. But at the end of the day, a point was important. And you had two games left, and we knew that that point was going to help us qualify. But we had to get over that quickly. And I remember Greg in that moment was very, very quick with the players

about being honest, like, hey, I know it doesn't feel good that we gave up the three points, but the point is valuable. And, you know, we're going to make that point is valuable and you know we're going to make that point count and the way we're going to make that point count is coming out the next game and and taking it to england and which is what we did and and we ended up qualifying winning against iran so so you know amazing um experience just to start and open the event with that game um and i and i'll say this when you hear your national anthem in a World Cup and you're standing there and your arm is in your chest and you're singing,

that anthem has a whole new meaning to you, I think, when you come back home. So in MLS games, even in one of my daughter's high school games, or if I hear it on the, on TV and an NFL game, like it, that, that anthem just has a whole, it just, a whole new sense of pride for me just because of that experience that I had. I, you know, it's, it's just one of those things that, that you'll never, you'll never forget. And I'm very proud of. Yeah. It's a, it's a special moment. It is a bonding moment,

especially as well. Cause normally you're overseas. And I think there's a feeling of like oh we are you know we're all americans and we're all into this and uh it was special to watch that world cup i watched 2022 from afar but uh had a blast doing it and luci thank you for putting some of that together for us and making it happen i appreciate you once again taking the time and uh we'll keep doing this while we hang out and talk soccer and to everyone out there. Thank you for joining us. Enjoy the US game. We've got plenty of coverage coming up this week. Tom will be back on Tuesday and Thursday with me. We've got your NWSL coverage with Jordan as well as the semifinals are going to be in the books and then we move on into the championship

coming up on Saturday in Kansas City. So a lot going on across the soccer world, but wanted a chance to talk about the USMNT a little bit here as well. Thank you once again for all of you for listening. We'll talk to you again. Take care, guys.