SoccerWise - USOC Final Recap As Nashville Win Their First Trophy In Club History

Episode Date: October 2, 2025

The 2025 USOC has finally come to a close. On Yom Kippur with David out atoning for the sins of his terrible preseason takes, Tom turns to one of the greats Joe Lowery (Backheeled) to bring it home. They talk through Nashville's historic night and Austin's heartbreak. And of course get you set for a huge round of MLS action, and USMNT's upcoming camp.

What's going on, everybody, welcome back to the latest edition of soccer logs. We've got a special show for you today. And yes, as you're hearing my voice first, Tom Bogor, that means that David Goss is not here. It is the holiest days on Yom Kippur, which means he's atoning for his sins as he'd like put it himself so i just assume top of the list there a lot of time spent mentally is is him deciding to start a podcast with me and what was he thinking and how did we get here so david goss we miss you i'll talk to you soon don't text me again today you're supposed to be away from your phone i thought i hope i didn't just get him in trouble with uh with his any family members but we got a ton

to talk about it's october the calendar shift there's so much going on in the world of u.s soccer Nashville SC won the U.S. Open Cup last night, their first ever trophy. What a night. We're going to dive into that. Also, the Vancouver Whitecaps won their fourth straight Canadian championship as Thomas Mueller hit a milestone both in terms of club trophies and goals scored, while Ryan Gouldt, more importantly, returned from injury. MLS, who insists they love the Open Cup, oh so very much, and they're doing everything they possibly can to support it,

also scheduled the Campionis Cup last night. And we're going to have our complete coverage, and it's this, to Luca beat the Galaxy 3-2. Congratulations. Anyway, the playoffs are almost here, and to step into David Goss's huge chair, not in the literal sense, but in the figurative sense, is my man Joe Lowry, backhield.com. I hope you guys all subscribe to it. Joe does backheeled, and then he does everything else.

So he's also, he's a very close friend, but I guess technically a competitor when you work everywhere else. I probably shouldn't be making jokes about overexposure, so probably going to look really dumb here. But Joe's here. He's got his most important 2025 MLS takes. We'll touch on the U.S. men's national team. We're also that dropped today. Joe, I got one question for you. What's up, brother?

Hey, what's up, Tom? It is great to be here. Goss's chair is comfy. There's like the spring that's loose in like sort of my left side here, but we'll get that fix. I'll talk to David. I do very much appreciate that, yeah, you're in a glass house talking about me doing everything.

You're doing everything, man. It is great to be here. Great to chat with you. Yeah, I'm two days removed from chugging a glass of milk on morning footy with John Mayor. Yeah, that was good. That was a good saying. I bet Jack May regrets ever the milk thing going public.

Like that's my suspicion deep down. I was a little bit worried because I was kind of talking to the, like, because this is just like M-L-S sick-o lore. Like I didn't expect anybody else to know it. And so then like they were doing more research into that. So that was kind of a little bit of a theme throughout the interview. And I was thinking I was like, man, I don't know, like I didn't know Jack, like personally or anything.

Like I've heard a lot of good things about him from teammates and coaching staff. But I was like, what if he just thinks we're making a joke? He was really good on that interview. He was really funny. And when I was chugging, like when I watched the video back, because when I was chugging, I was just focused on the task at hand.

Yeah, get it down. I turned and go, hell yeah, Tom. Was it, so what percent milk are we talking? Like, was this whole milk? Because chugging, that's not easy, dude. I think it was 2%. All right, that's classic.

Production assistant handed it to me when we were on set. And I was like, I know what I'm doing. Claudia, I don't blame her. I wouldn't want her to try to chug that. So that's out of that way. But yeah, Nashville SC, they won.

The Open Cup last night, it was, again, a really busy Wednesday night with two trophies. I'm not two trophies on the line. Yeah. And the Vancouver White Cops are going to get to that in a second. So, but first, let's go with Nashville. I see they beat Austin 2 to 1. There was a little bit of refereeing air controversy. I know the Austin FC fans would certainly say that.

Joe, I don't want to start there. I want to start elsewhere. The game ends 2-1. Sam Surge scores the winner from the penalty spot. Honey Muktar scores the first goal. Very poetic that these are the two goals scores in the win. Mirto O'Zoon, he scored for Austin. Austin, I thought, played more expansive.

I knew that they played well, I knew that they played hard. They played more expansive, and they were more of a threat going forward than I thought they were. But it unfortunately for them wasn't enough. Nashville win 2-1, Joe. What were your biggest thoughts on the final? Yeah, Nashville deserved winners of this game. I think even with some of the refereeing question marks, I thought Nashville did enough to win this game.

And really, the big picture takeaway, I think, is that this is Nashville getting a well-deserved trophy as a club. But mostly for what they've done in 2025, The East is so scary this year that if National and the West we'd be talking about them more, first of all, and they would be a legit MLS Cup contender. Whereas in the East, they still are, but their road is so much more difficult to get there.

So they may not get to MLS Cup. They won't get to the Shield at this point. We know that already. This was their best chance to win a trophy this year and credit to them, right? They took this competition seriously. Nice that they actually got to be in the Open Cup on like a bunch of other teams.

I liked you a little jab earlier at MLS there. But this was a fitting set of circumstances for National to lift this trophy because they've been really good this year. They've got the third best, expected goal differential on MLS this year. They've been up near the top in that ranking all year long. They play some really effective soccer. And

what they've done, what B.J. Callahan has done is really impressive to me. It's not just BJ. It's also the front office. And Mike Jacobs refreshing this roster in a way that has panned out a lot better than I thought it would. I didn't think National were going to be very good this year. And it's a credit to basically everybody there that they have been. I loved Tom.

First of all, CBS going a lot for this game on the broadcast side of things. That was really cool to see. I loved BJ on the desk pitch side before the game started. I think it was Charlie, maybe you asked him about Sam Surridge and how he's been so good this year and what those conversations have been like to get him to this level. And I loved BJ Cowan's response to that.

It was we went through and watched a lot of his best moments. We watched a lot of his tape and tried to figure out where we could use him to get the most out of him. And it sounds like they decided we want to play him off the left in a front two. And obviously that's what they've done all year long. And Surich has thrived in that role. been the best that we've seen from him in his entire career. Muktar has been every bit the player that we know he can be.

And building a system around those two guys has been so effective and it paid off yesterday. Yeah, our guy Ben Wright, who was in Austin covering the game, please read everything that comes out from him. But he identified this himself at some point, I think, a middle of last year, about like, there is a Sam Surge straight-mark goal. It is in that inside left channel with his right foot going to the far post. And B.J. Callahan identified that. All right, let's get our best players in their best spot. I talk about this with coaching all of the time where, yeah, like, Wilfred Nancy is one brand of brilliance

the way that their intricate game model, everything, the bravery that comes with that. You look at them, and again, first of all these coaches, we all know they know much, much more about something than we do. But like Wilfr Nancy, it's like, so he almost feels intimidating. It's just like, I'm obviously an idiot. And BJ Cahehan, like, obviously that's a different brand of brilliance where like, man, just put your best players in the best positions to succeed.

and another quote from BJ that came from the game after the game that he was asked about tactics and it was like hey like you draw everything up like what were the adjustments how do like how does it go in like did what you envision this game going did it kind of go that way was the sentiment of the question and I loved his answer he just goes listen like we set the foundation we try to set the foundation but like my voice is course because I was we're on the sideline just supporting them what we could the players go on the field the players win the game and like I think that's so valuable when a coach is so clearly and so genuinely, no, no, no, no, it's all them, like, tactics.

Yeah, yeah, I try to do it. Like, that's a small part. Like, no, no, no, like, honey mooks are scored a goal because it was a special, special sequence and a little great deft assist from Schaulberg. Like, yeah, like, maybe BJ could have drawn that up, but I think it's, I just think it's great when coaches kind of go out of the way. And you can tell when something's perfunctory and you can tell when something's, like, genuine.

And I don't know, I think the man-management side of BJ, it's so clear why the players love them and why they'll run through a wall for him. right? Yeah, I mean, and I'm sure this is true for you, Tom. I've never heard a bad thing about B.J. Callahan. It seems like everybody loves him. He seems like a really affable guy all the way across the board from the moments I've talked to them in the past. You look at this national team and it's like, I love what you said there, Tom. For me, this is a things can be two things situation where it is absolutely true, fundamentally, a truth of the sport, that the players win games. Like the players have the lion's share of the impact. And B. Chick-Hallahan

is wise to recognize that because that's just how the sport works. And even Wilfr-Runate would recognize that, right? But it's also true. Like everything you said to true. It's also true that that opening goal sequence is very natural. Like, is very much part of BJ Callahan's identity where it's Surridge pulling off the left and where is so much of the chance creation for Nashville come this year. It's come through the wide

areas, which seems maybe a bit counterintuitive given they play that four triple two. But then, outside of Surrog and Muktar, for me, when I think about what's made this team so good, it's the outside backs. It's Lovitz getting forward down the left, it's Nihar getting forward down the right. And I was worried that Nihar wasn't going to be able to continue in this game after he goes down early kind of holding his arm.

He does end up continuing. those two guys and their ability to play make is so special when you marry that with having two elite best in class forwards. National, again, I didn't think they were totally at their best in this game, a little sloppy, the penalty that's conceded from Schwaukee is unfortunate, but he ends up making amends for it, and so that all turns out fine. And they did need a little bit of help from the referee crew to go and make this thing and really claim that to and win, but it's deserved, man.

There's just no way you can look at this and say that they don't deserve to win this trophy. Before we get to kind of some of those smaller details or the refereeing got decisions, I think we're going to disagree. I want to talk big picture for Nashville. This team has been among the most competitive and the most successful expansion builds in league history, straight up. They are one of five teams in league history to make the playoffs in five of their first expansion seasons. The Sounders had the crazy open cup runs. I think that they won three of their first four. All of those trophies, like again, that's elite, what Atlanta, what LFC is, done. NYCFCC kind of after their first year. Chicago 98, like yeah, the whole league was an

expansion league at that point. So it's a little bit different. In modern MLS to do what they've done, it's really awesome and fitting for them to win this trophy. They got to the Leaks Cup final. I thought they were better than Miami. And they lost that game. And nobody cares if you think that they were better or not because they lost the game. And they'll be the first to tell you that. What I love so much about this team and what I think is going to get more and more credit now, particularly as we look back, one of the best expansion builds ever, straight up. Like, they signed Honey Mukhtra. It was like $2.8 million.

He's been one of the best signings in the last decade, two decades, like straight up. Honey Muktar was day one. Jack Mayer was day one. Walker Zimmerman was day one. Joe Willis, Dan Lovitz. I think Dax McCarty, like, I don't know if they do rings or medals for this.

Dax McCarty should get one. So, Max McCarty should get something. He was so important. Anna Bogdoy, honestly, too. These two players were so important. And Nashville were deliberate with that. Nashville were deliberate on the culture centers. That's why Dax was so important to them outside of how great he is on the field.

It was about what he did in the locker room. So you look at what Mike Jacobs and this front office has done, and the front office has changed a little bit, but Jacobs is still there. Some people from his executive tree had moved on to D.C. United and elsewhere, but what this group has done hasn't gotten enough credit yet because while they were successful, they weren't a whole lot of fun to watch under Gary Smith,

which is a tradeoff. took 10 out of 10 times, you know, until they weren't successful. They've refreshed the group. B.J. Cowahan, a grade higher, very obviously. Sam Surridge, they got that DP forward, right? They tweaked the roster. They overturned it. But the core of this team remains from the 2020 season. In world soccer, full stop, that's rare.

In MLS, that's rare because you have a quandary of if you do, if you're really good, you usually move on or go somewhere else. And if you're not good, you need to overturn the roster. So the continuity in this team, and again, like, Like, this is one of the best expansion builds ever. Yeah, 100% agree. And one skill that we see from MLS front office types that I think really differentiates some from others

is the ability to build on the initial build. I'm just going to say build 100 times in the next minute or so. It's the ability to have that first roster and maintain success. And it hasn't been all roses for Nashville, to be clear. But they've been more good than bad, and this is the best version of them so far.

What I find so appealing about what Nashville have done is they recognize that where they were before, Yes, it was good. It was even maybe a little better than good, but it wasn't enough. And they saw when it was obvious that the Gary Smith project wasn't working anymore. It was time to move on. And they iterated on that to go and have the level of success that they're having now, where it is those pieces that you mention.

And then it is going out and signing Andy Nahar and having a perfect idea of how they wanted to use him that maximized all of his strengths. It's going on adding Eddie Tagseth and Patrick Asbeck to be really useful piece of them in the middle of infield. And oh, by the way, we'll go get a Gaston Brugman to fit in that group as well. there are just so many hits when it comes to this roster. And again, I was a doubter of all of this. Like, we didn't really know what B.J Callahan was going to bring at this level. We didn't know how some of these pieces were going to translate.

Honey Muktar had not been anywhere near his best. Surridge looked like a good MLS player, but not like a really good MLSDP. So it's a credit to Nashville in this entire group that they have managed to build on top of what they already had to not just get them back to the level where they were before things kind of went downhill under Gary Smith. But to push them even above that line. Super impressive to me. Yeah, it's very difficult to move around eras and again, particularly with the philosophical change

that this coaching staff implemented, and you saw it took a while last year. They were playing some better ball, but they weren't getting results. And really, like, they were playing better ball kind of in the middle third, which is the least valuable of the thirds when it comes to soccer.

So we weren't sure at the beginning of this season, like, hey, is this going to be another year thing? Is this going to be a transition year? Well, it is, and everything's kind of went up for Nashville. They're a really strong team in the Eastern Conference. Like you said, it's funny when, you see, you know, if they were in the Western Conference, conference. This is one of the teams that is snip-snapped between conferences. So maybe in another

world they would be in the Western conference like they were a couple years ago. But in the game, we're going to get to Austin as well. But I have to talk about the refereeing decisions. So I'll let you go first. First of all, there was the awesome penalty that Uzuni didn't score and then obviously the decisive Sam Surge penalty. What were your thoughts on those two? So kind of you, Tom, to let me go first on refereeing decisions. Wow. I mean, that is just, what a gracious host you are. I thought the penalty... Didn't want to taint the jury pool.

No, I get that. I thought the penalty conceded by Brian Schwachie was a penalty. Like, there was enough contact there. It wasn't, oh, I'm going to clatter through this, dude. But there was enough there for me. And in my view on the Danny Pereira penalty concession, soccer-wise guest, friend of the program, Danny Pereira. So I want to be gracious.

Is that when you wrap around a guy in the box, you invite that decision? Is it something that we see called often? No, it is not. If we were to see that kind of call made on every single corner, there would be a penalty on seven out of ten corner kicks. At the same time, I really do believe that. If you go and wrap somebody up even lightly and they go down,

you have left yourself culpable for a decision like that to be made. Is it frustrating and would I be frustrated if I was an Austin fan? Yes. Is it also true that they weren't so blindingly good in this game that they, like, it's not like Austin were so amazing in this game that if that call hadn't gone against them, that they were definitely going to win. So for me, I would be frustrated a little bit if I was an Austin fan, but I think both calls were correct.

the end of the day. I do, and I feel pretty strongly, actually. So I would push back on the idea that, like, yeah, I understand that there's grappling on every corner kick. Well, when you're behind the player that you have your arms wrapped around and the ball is within playing distance of the player that you're pulling, it's a penalty. And I don't think that that happens on every corner, particularly, you know, again, where the ball is delivered. But the most damning point is before that corner was taken, Danny Pereira was, they stopped the play before the corner came in for Tori Penzo to tell Danny Pereira, get your hands off of him, I'm watching. She did what she could to avoid the situation. I'm certain that she didn't want to be the story

of the game. No referee does. She said literally, don't do this. Three seconds later, he did the same exact thing and give pelasios credit if if you're grappling kind of chest to chest or face it like if you're looking at each other then then i would have said it's soft pelasios got around him and danny's behind him and grapples him maybe you could call you could say it's soft you could say maybe you went down a little bit too easy that's a 10 out of 10 penalty for me yeah i mean ultimately i don't really disagree the point i'm trying to make is that we see a lot of grappling on a lot of corner kicks that's fair the context you added there tom of toy penceo having this exact discussion before the moment happens. And I think Tony Miola, or I don't know if it was witty, one of those guys called

this out on the broadcast at the time as, hey, this conversation just happened and the foul gets called. I think it's completely understandable. Like, it is, for me, it is not maybe quite as greedy just as you landed, but ultimately we agree. Like, this call was entirely reasonable. It was, I think it was fair at the end of the day. And if you're an Austin fan, yeah, you're a myth because you can point to a bunch of contact on a bunch of corners against you all season long, because that's how soccer works. But really, I think it's a little hard to argue your way out of this. Yeah, but I will say for also, I thought that they played well.

You look at the, again, there was game states that came into this, but I'm, I was shocked to see them win the possession battle. I was shocked to see them out shoot Nashville. Again, Nashville was playing with the lead for most of the first half and then, again, the last 30 minutes. So the game states are a big, big factor here, but they were expansive. I thought Bukari was a handful, and this is, there was some of Bukari's story. Like, yeah, he's a nightmare to deal with.

And then the final third, it's... In a straight line, he's terrifying, man. Like, if soccer was played, like, just forward and backwards, that dude's unstoppable. But he did get to the end line a few times. Like, it was... If he had a left foot, I think it'd be better. But, like, again, I thought he was good on this game.

Like, good, not great. And I think that's one of the differences. Like, they spend $7 million on him, too. And, like, I'm not even trying to necessarily be critical of him. I don't think he was the reason that they didn't win. But on one end, Sam Surge and Honeymo, our score in special moments. On the other one, Uzuni did get his goal. He missed a penalty,

and Usman Bukari had plenty of chances, created plenty of danger, and it didn't come off. But I will say for Austin, hold their head up high. I thought they played well. I thought they were a deserving finalists going on the road and beating Minnesota United. I know that they've had San Jose fans, if they're

here, we're going to hear about them getting past San Jose, but Austin, again, I can't take anything away from them on this day. And if it went the other way, if either the penalty didn't get called or maybe if Zuni hit his penalty earlier in the game or Bukari like I wouldn't be sitting here being like wow I can't believe national didn't win I would be saying hey allson we're deserved champion so I thought that game was a lot of fun last night uh possibly the funnest of the mall is

sam surge getting the dumbest most hilarious red card I've ever seen because he didn't know he got a yellow card for a clear yellow card offense um and he kind of he told the broadcast after the game he's i honestly didn't know i had a yellow card which was clear based on his reaction yeah um b j cowhead was on morning footy with us today and I asked him and he just starts laughing he goes yeah those conversations after the game were a little bit more fun because we won yeah well sort didn't start to say after the game basically like I I was just biting my nails for the last however much much time was left in that game like 30 seconds I was just living in fear hoping that it wasn't to come back to invite us so funny and hang on and so I'm a I understand the wasting time and stuff

if if Austin scored so not just a red card they took off handy mooghtar too right we this could have been two to an extra time teal bunbury leading the line have some respect first of all down down playing with ted men like oh my god like i'm glad that that sam did say that last sam sir said that of like oh man i was worried but um yeah any any parting thoughts on austin austin austin for me i respected how nico steves approached this game in terms of his lineup where over the weekend against rs l game that they lose and did not play well in he rotated to have fresh legs for this game um i don't i'm not a big believer in this Austin build or what's happening there. This

was their best chance to win a trophy. I don't know that next year is going to look super great for them. But the good news for Austin is that the West is really bad. So you're still in the mix of things. Like this season is not done for you and the way that they're built lends I think to pulling off some upsets in the postseason. But I would be

really bummed if I was an Austin fan because you are within an inch of a trophy and I don't really know when you're going to be back there. That's fair. I will say on the positive note that this is I think it's a successful season for Austin. first year under Nico Estevez, you lose Brandon Vasquez to a tournaciel. He's trying to make pieces fit that don't totally fit, right? Like the Uzuni-Vazquez fit was always going to be a little bit awkward

and kind of same thing with Bukhari. It's like, all right, well, if you play four for two, do you put a $7 million player at Wingback to play 352? I don't know, right? Like there was a lot of, again, philosophical questions with the buildup, sorry, with the roster build. And I think a lot of people were critical of the Nico Estevez-Hira. I know the Austin fans didn't love it.

And they're not the most expansive and the most exciting team, but look, they get to an Open Cup final and they're a playoff team. And I think for year one, that's a success. Yeah, I mean, fine. I guess I don't have a lot of juice for that, like that as a take. But I think the better question is,

what's next? Like, what is this leading towards? In my personal viewpoint is I don't have a lot of confidence that this year is going to build this great foundation for Austin next year. I like Brandon Vasquez as a player. I don't love him for what they spent. And I don't even really love him as a DP, frankly.

Seems like a nice dude. Great haircut at the moment. Good stash as well. like I was loving the fit yesterday. I just don't, I don't see Austin with their primary playmaker as Owen Wolfe, who's a good young player, by the way, but he's not a primary playmaker. I just don't see that ballooning into something that's going to make them a really scary team next year. But maybe I'm wrong.

Like, I would love to be wrong, and I don't enjoy rubbing salt in the wound for Austin after last night. Calling it as he sees it. Also last night, the Vancouver White Cups, fourth straight Canadian championship. They beat Vancouver FC, 4-2, good on Vancouver FC. for getting some dangerous attacks and scored a couple goals. I don't know if you saw the Vancouver FC lineup, but I just need to... Just the dudes name and dudes here.

Like, Mesquita, Mbongay, O'Connor, is just, I don't know. That made me smile when looking back at the game. Tom, I was standing in my kitchen last night. Like, I needed to go to bed, but I was, like, looking for a snack. And I was like, all right, I'm going to just stand here and scroll on my phone for a few seconds while I decide whether or not I want to get a snack. And I look at this game.

I didn't get a chance to watch this game. I saw the highlights. I look at the lineup of this game for Vancouver FC, and it was just one of those eye-catching names after the next. I saw one. I was like, oh, that's got to be the last one. Then I saw the next one. It was so good.

And it wasn't just like, oh, I know this name. It was, I know this name. Why on earth do I know this name? Where does the connection? Yeah, this is a great guy's naming dudes 11. But that wasn't the story. The story was the Vancouver White Cops. Again, fourth straight Canadian championship.

Congratulations to them. More importantly, as we're just says to say about a trophy. More importantly, Ryan Gold is back. Ryan Gould came back for the first time since March 8th. He scores off the bench. Thomas Mueller scored as well. It was his 35th trophy, his 300th career goal. What a night could not have gone more perfect for the Vancouver White Cups.

Yeah, huge. I mean, the Mueller thing is a fun anecdote. The Gulled thing is obviously the huge story. And you already have said that. It would have been important for Vancouver regardless to get Ryan Gould back just in time for the playoffs. And who knows, I would be a little surprised if he starts a game before the playoffs. Yeah, interesting.

And he only comes off the bench. the last 10, 15 minutes of this game, scores a goal, all that is fun. But to get him back in this moment for Vancouver is huge. Like, they have been, along with Columbus, those guys have been bitten by the injury bug for longer and harder than any other team in MLS. In Minnesota, maybe have like something of a shout there with the timing of some of their

absences. But Vancouver, to be missing as many pieces as they are all across the field, it's massive. It's absolutely massive for them. And I don't know exactly how all this fits together for Yersper Sorensen. I do know that Yesper Sorensen's a really smart guy and they just got to a plan for how this is going to fit together with Mueller and Gould being on the field together, even if we've still got a little while to wait. Man, they just need bodies.

Like, they need difference-making starting-level bodies. They really need that at centerback, but that's not going to be Ryan Gald's purview. But still, to get Gald back now in the moment that they're in health-wise is even bigger than it would be in any other situation. Ali Ahmed was a man of the match, and every time you think he hits a ceiling, he finds another floor. Yeah. I don't have a great analysis they had beyond that other than I'm just very impressed. and what a player he is.

But back kind of with Gold, like the long-term fit here. And again, hopefully we see as much as we can and going towards the playoffs and as much fitness as he can without kind of overloading and risking any injuries. Like, the fit's going to be good because Ryan Gould, the working man's MVP candidate. That dude, like, you don't have to worry about him

and Mueller trying to operate the same spaces because Gull's work rate is so high and Mueller's intelligence is so high that I'm just thrilled that we get to see it this season and whatever semblance it's going to be. You talk about the back line stuff. I know Blackman's out as well, but Blackman is a defender of the year candidate. He's going to be on my top three.

We'll do show, obviously, by the end of the season, when I kind of really dive in and finalize what my end-of-year picks are. But, like, they've still been good, like, even without Ranko Vesselinovich, which is a very, very difficult task. So the white caps have qualified for the Concapped Champions Cup again. I want to read a couple of quotes. This guy, I'm so happy he's in MLS, man. I'm really, like, I was thinking that one, the potential.

potential signing was happening when it was Sinti, when it was somebody else. This guy's a really fun guy. It's really great. But like, you know, the eyes are on Sun or Greasman or whatever. I'm so happy that this character is in the league. He's just, um, he was asked about, like, hey, you won your 35th major trophy. And he immediately goes, no, I just felt about winning the Canadian championship. It's not about me. It's a nice number, whatever.

I'm with the boys. I'm with the crowd. Hell yeah. The next question was, well, you know, qualifying for the Conquerqueath Champions Cup. Did that play a factor? And the question, did that play a factor in coming? Like to the Vancouver White House? Oh, yeah.

It was not on my horizon. I was more looking to the future and how good this team is to compete in the playoffs. That's what... Yeah, but I'm happy that I'm in the competition next year. I mean, turn to the PR people. What the hell? Wait, what?

Wait, where's our first game? Wait, our first game is four weeks before the most regular season starts next year. Oh, yeah. Get juice, Thomas, get juice, man. And I even forgot to kind of, like, again, like, we think about the Concep Champions Cup plenty, but I was just thinking about the trophy,

rather than deducing, oh my God, yeah, we get Thomas Mueller going to Costa Rica or Honduras or Mexico, whatever, man, like this is going to be electric. So congratulations of Vancouver White Cups. Again, they did it fourth year in a row. They kind of slipped out of the shield race, which with all of the injuries, I don't blame them in any bit. This has been the best season in club history, partly even just not selling the team to anybody that you're worried about moving it, right? Like, this is one of the most pleasant, positive, happy surprises of the MLS 2025 season.

and they pick up a trophy again. Any more thoughts on Vancouver, Joe? No, I mean, I think you nailed it. I'm stoked to see Gald and Miller together. I think this fit is fairly simple. They'll probably both be in the half spaces for Jesper Sorensen. This seems great. I want to see them as close to full strength as they can get,

and I think they're a legit threat for M-Loss Cup if they get at least a couple of pieces, even beyond Gould, back and healthy. I would agree. Testament to the depth and testament to Yester Sornson for his job, he'll be, I think he's the favorite for Coach of the Year. It's him, Mikey Varis. there's Eric Ramsey's in the mix there

there's a lot to choose from but what a story of Vancouver have been this season and they go into the playoffs looking to get further than they have in previous years. So let's get to the latest news. We'll open the ice cream shop here. First we'll start with an official piece of news. Sporting Kansas City hires David Lee

to be their new CSO. He leaves NYCFCC and he signs a seven-year deal with Sporting Kansas City which definitely made the rounds with sources like congratulations to him. He earned it. Okay, I might need to ask for seven-year deal now myself. I didn't know. I didn't know that option was on the table. David Lee, I think he is one of the best CSOs in this league.

What happens with City Football Group, NYCFC, is we tend to give the credit to the organization and to the scouting network to just the entity that is City Football Group. And we kind of anonymize the head coach, particularly the front office, you know, hey, this U-23 South American player. You know, it's like Taddy Cassiano's broke through in terms of, like, being a star. But Dave Lee has been with this club since day one. He was lower down the ranks in their inaugural season. He gets to be Claudio Raina's number two. And when Claudio Rana leaves for Austin FC after 2019, David Lee takes over CSO. Since he's been CSO, no team has won more points at NYCFC. Right now, they are set up very well. They are about to get their new stadium.

David Lee, I think, has earned more, I guess, more credit than he's getting. And just a couple more points here is, like, we talk about the scotid network and everything. And yes, like, that is important. When City Football Group was expanding their network and moving some scouts around, I know for fact, I think it was 20, it was either 23 or 24. One winter, when they had a lot to do, they didn't essentially have any scouts dedicated just to NYCFC. It was a point of transition within City Football Group. where some NYCFC scouts were moving to different city football group teams.

And when the musical chairs were done spinning, middle of the off season, NYCFC didn't have a ton of support staff there. So that's something that I don't think people really recognize that. Like, David Lee isn't just an empty suit for city football group. Like, I think this is a really great hire for sporting Kansas City. Yeah, Tom, that insight is fascinating. And that's the piece that I've been missing. And I think everybody's been wondering since this hire came out.

You see NYCFC and someone associated with them, and there's been a lot of success, as you outlined. But it's not clear. Like, what, who gets credit for what inside of CFG? One thing I've been thinking about is, if I was a sporting Kansas City fan, I would be excited about this hire. I put this out on social media, I wrote it for back-hield. Like, I would be pleased with this hire,

even with some of the question marks of exactly how the credit gets apportioned. But one thing I've been thinking about is Khalid Al-A-Mod and the success that he's had with Minnesota United. After being inside of CFG, it is, it's just a name, right? It's a name inside of an organization. There's a lot of names, some are qualified than, others inside of CFG. But I mean, if I'm an SKC fan, that fact alone seeing what's happened in Minnesota makes me smile thinking a little bit about this. Can I ask you a question, Tom?

Yeah. Because NYCFC, for as good as they've been, they've left meat on the bone when it comes to their roster builds, right? They have been one of the youngest teams in MLS year after year after year. They're inside the top 10 youngest teams this year, which is older than they've been relative to the competition over the last several years. They have, they didn't replace Santiago Rodriguez back in the primary transit window earlier this year. They have spent a lot of money on a lot of young players and had, I think, an appropriate level of success, maybe even a little better

than appropriate level of success with those players. But how much of that, I assume a lot, but how much of that is CFG directed for how they want NYCFC to operate within their structure, and how much of, especially the Santee thing, is the front office from what you know? A lot of the city football group stuff, to the

point where my understanding is that Nico Fernandez at the grand old age of 25, that was a fight. to be able to sign him and not another U-21 player. Right. That's my understanding, at least. And again, maybe that's creative. But you look at their transfer history,

I don't know. We'll see with David Lee at Sporting Kansas City what he does with the third deepies probably does to the U-22 slots, what he does with the head coach. And I think we'll be able to see patterns. I'm sure that they're still going to sign young players like any other team, but I doubt that it's going to be some sort of U-23 manifesto, and that's it and that's all.

because there are different ways to win in this league and NYCFCC did it this way. Well, part of that was Taddi Casiano's coming on a really team-friendly deal but that was a great, great signing. They mad Maxi Morales in his prime when they won in a lot's got Maxim Rialis is still here, right? So I think we're going to see that,

but that's definitely a CFG directive. Obviously something that David Lee and that, if you don't buy into it, you don't work. Yeah, right. That organization. I do want to be clear. But like, I know that Nick Cushing getting fired was not a popular decision. not a popular decision within that organization, and that seems to have worked out as well.

Joe, when you look at Kansas City, is it the obvious names that you think that you'd build around if you're kind of in David Lee's shoes looking and assessing this roster and moving forward? It's Yovalich, Mauna Garcia, Jake Davis, Jacob Bartlett, Janssen Miller, Daniel Schawee, varying degrees. Tell me where I'm wrong. What you're thinking? That sounds like the whole list, man. That very short list that you just read off. there are only five players on supporting Kansas City senior roster who have guaranteed deals past next season. So everybody, excuse me, past this off season,

completely scrub that. Their contracts are basically all up after the end of this season, which mercifully for SKC is coming very soon. It is not a long list of pieces that you want to keep. And that's why I think this position is actually a lot more attractive than a lot of people maybe around, a lot of fans around the league, a lot of sporting Kansas City fans maybe would even appreciate.

well there were a lot of very qualified people that were interested in this job a lot of very qualified people interviewed for this job uh david lee was not the only cso as far as i understand it inside of of like mLS who had at least some some casual interest in this stuff like this is an attractive job and part of that is because skis gave david lee an elevated title right um that's that's nice like looks get on the resume i assume he's making more money than he did before and that's you're handed out almost decade long safely assume that yeah totally and and like if you're handed out almost a 10 year long contract like that's a pretty attractive deal you don't get get a lot of that in this industry. At the same time, all that's true. Now, beyond that,

this is as close to an expansion build as you get to have as a team that's not an expansion team. Like, other than you're tied up to two DPs, one of which, and you have which I think you'd be fine to be tied to. The other one, Garcia, I'm a little less thrilled about that, but I think there's something there. Everything else you get to do. You get to go and build out your game model. Like, you get to go and make that 900 slide PowerPoint presentation that all these people like to make with the tactics and game model and what you're looking for in positional profiles, you get to hire a coach, you get to do everything. Now, the downside is you don't have a lot of time. And so this is going to take time to rebuild. I don't think this is

going to be SKC, nailing every single decision, swinging on everything this off season and going and going to be great next year. But they're going to be better. You better believe they're going to be better because there's no way for them to be worse. And you have all of these doors open to you. And sorry, I'm going along. You also get to build out the club. Like, I don't think you get the interest in this position that there was without ownership being willing to do more than they've ever done before right that i believe very strongly it's it's not just hey we're going to spend on the roster which i think there is a willingness to do not that spending and success are correlated in mLS but i think there's a willingness to go out and spend on the first team roster but beyond that let's go and spend

to actually build out this club like like capital c club there's as far as i know there's one scout working at sporting kansas city right now like they don't really have a data department there's a room for a lot of people a lot of really smart people to be hired into this organization and if you're davidly you got to be stoked at all of the control that you have just inherited and all of the security that you have long term. I think this is really fascinating job, and I think Lee is going to be a really interesting person to watch in this club. It's going to be interesting to watch next year and beyond.

How many fiction novels did he write, though? Not enough, man. Not enough to get the DC job. That we can say with absolute certainty. Elsewhere around MLS, sources have told me this week that Jim Curtin is not in the running for the New England Revolution head coaching job. I'm told that that's family reasons. And what I can say is that was an innuendo for,

oh my god i talked to like these conversations didn't go well from my understanding via multiple sources like it's a genuine it's a genuine thing and so much so that i'd be surprised if if he takes a job before uh next off season um and i and i heard that pretty pretty strongly from a couple people so this new england job is also interesting to people like that's that's definitely something that jim curtain spoke about considered and uh unfortunately can't move along in the process I'm fairly certain he was their top target because he probably should be for just about anybody with a coaching vacancy now. So I'm not sure where New England are going.

It is still kind of early days from my understanding. Again, you go for Curtin first and then while you're building out, okay, who else can we talk to? Who else are we going to do? Again, I keep saying Gio Sabresi's name. I don't think that there's been a formal interview kind of place for schedule. Tommy Quinlan reported that Peter Vermease was one of the names as of two, three days ago. I was told that that was really preliminary in terms of conversation. Nothing, again, no interview has been scheduled.

Again, I think that we're just going to hear a lot of names. And I don't know what the timeline would be for New England. I'm not suggesting that they're taking too long. It's just like we are still really in the beginning of this. Yeah. Yeah. And for New England, it's a totally different situation. It's a different job than the CSO job, obviously, in Kansas City.

But it's also a totally different situation with the roster, right? I mean, it is, you're going to have to do something closer to a Nashville if you want to have real success next season because you're locked into so many pieces and parts on that roster because Caleb Porter got what he wanted and they went out and signed a bunch of players over the last few transfer windows and now you're sort of stuck with those pieces. So it's interesting to me that Curtin was as interested in that job as it sounds like he was because that indicates that there's a belief on his part that he can do something with that roster. I mean, there's no way you touch that job if you don't feel like you can, especially if you're Jim Curtin and

you have the cashier that he does. If you're a geo or some of these other candidates, like you probably are going to leap at almost any job that you can get. But that's an interesting bit on Curtin that he is, like, or was really quite interested if the stars that align personally for him to take that job. Yeah, I'm glad that you followed it. Like, I don't, I don't, I'm not intimating that I know for sure that he would have, that Jim Curtin would have taken that job. But like, I just want to make it as abundantly clear as possible that, like, it is fair that people read personal reasons and think, like, oh, my God, the ref screwed this up. What did they do? They drove him away.

Like, that wasn't the case. It's kind of what I wanted to say. a couple injury points here uh sucks quin sullivan ac l's hair out for the season uh that that really hurts philly for the playoff joe yeah i mean it's it's a tough blow for them i honestly think they've got the depth to go and survive this to be totally honest it hurts not just for the season that it hurts like in a similar way a much much reduced way but the timeline of ricky poohs last year of oh man not only do we lose them for the most important games on our season we also lose them for almost all the next season.

Like, it really, really stings. I do, I stand by my, my initial take. I think Philly can deal with this. Oloski is even more important now than he was before because we saw him move into that left-sided 10 roll from the two-striker front. Carnell moves him back when Sullivan has to come off the field. And he was good. Like, granted, they were playing DC United, so it's pretty easy to look good in that

situation. But I think Philly have been savvy with their succession planning when it comes to their striker situation in a way that also gives them a lot of flexibility personnel-wise to have someone like Oloskey come and deputize in different spots. So I think they're going to be okay. But, I mean, their trophy odds, their MLS Cup odds, definitely did take a slight hit with this injury. Yeah, you hate to see it.

Hopefully, that's a smooth recovery, but it probably ends his World Cup dreams, which, again, you never wanted to come down to an injury. Yeah, it sucks. You want to come down on the field. Another injury, Jack McGlynn underwent foot surgery. He's out for the rest of the season for Houston Dynamo. I don't know exactly what the timeline is on this injury

because the rest of the season could be two weeks for the Dynamo. I'm not making a joke. I'm just saying that in a factual sense. Like, we know Sullivan's was a torn ACL. We know what the timeline is for that. Jack McGlynn, I don't have that off the top of my head, but I do know I was told McGlynn was part of this U.S. national team roster, and then he got injured this weekend, so he had to be pulled out.

So Jack McGlynn is still very much in the picture for Risho-Pocetino. It doesn't seem to me that this is a long, long-term injury. I don't want to speculate on about January just because I simply haven't heard anything. There is no, air-quote, minor surgery. It's only relative. Anytime you have to get sedated and put a knife into your foot. If it was my foot, I wouldn't be calling it minor. But, yeah, Jack McGlynn's out.

And again, hopefully that timeline will be revealed soon. And hopefully it's not very long. Yeah, it sucks for him, certainly. It is encouraging to hear that he is still a part of Pachino's plans. Because when I saw the roster drop earlier today, that was one of the first things that I noticed was no Jack McGlynn. And I think he can really add something to the U.S. It adds a lot to Houston, of course, obviously.

Houston have other things that they got to worry about. and I don't think having Jack McGlynn was going to be the difference between them doing something this season and not. I mean, they were already more likely than not to not make the postseason. Right. So maybe their season will be two weeks, maybe it will be longer. There's a lot more that needs to be done in Houston. But McGlynn, obviously best wishes to both him and Quinsolvin. It was a really nice moment on social media.

Quinselvin commented on the post of McGlynn being injured and he said, want to rehab together? Philly kids, go back a while. So that's pretty cool. So Joe, let's get into your biggest. Can I call it your most important MLS takes of 25 season? Or did I, I didn't give you a whole lot of heads up on this. So I just, I just don't want to back you into calling it your most important ones. And then you think you, if you had more prep time, that you would have come up with something different.

But you tell you. No, no, most important. Let's just forget my most important, just the most important MLS takeaways. Like, these should be the widely accepted most important big picture takeaways of the year. Let me be clear, too. I gave you the rundown and you put it in, which is good. I haven't looked at them. Oh, cheeky.

I want to see, I want to have natural reaction. So, Joe, you drive it, go ahead with your number one. All right, let's go. Whatever, whatever you want to do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. These are not in any order because I love all my children equally. The first one that I want to toss out is it's time to update our thinking about expansion teams. San Diego FC have been so good this year.

I think in the modern age of MLS, we should be thinking about expansion teams in a very different way. And I sort of almost alluded to this earlier with our national conversation of, yes, building a roster is, is a challenge, iterating on that roster is like an even bigger challenge as players come and want raises and you have different things that come and affect your team as you go through. I think in some ways the initial build is like one of the easier parts of setting up a soccer team. And I think San Diego have showed us that. Now, San Diego are unique, right, in that when they are building out this roster, they have help and they have right to dream and the influence there.

And they have people from right to dream coming over into the preseason set up for them and helping out Mikey Varus and pointing out there. and being an influence to them. San Diego are a unique case, but I think if we start to look back in the last five, eight years of MLS expansion builds, there have been a lot of hits in there. San Diego are the hideous of all the hits.

Nailed it, good English on my part. But they have been so good, and I, like many other people, doubted them. I think I had them, like, as a fringe playoff team. Me too. This team's amazing. This team is absolutely amazing. And I think this is the last data point

that I needed to update my thinking on an expansion team where you're given benefits. You have the expansion draft. You get extra allocation money. you have time to build a roster and you don't have all the distractions of the other teams around you that they have to iterate on the roster that they've already built and oh and play games and do all this other stuff and manage egos you don't have to do that in the same way as an expansion team i think it's time to start thinking about expansion as like something of an asset rather than like a detriment interesting i still think

it's a hard job um a lot of us would relish like that like that is the dream right of starting from blank slate um no yeah i think that is interesting and and again that like i know that like i know you're not taking anything away from like the success or or how awesome it's been for San Diego but I think that's that's just about us being dumb about like well we haven't seen them play together so they probably suck yeah right I think that's that's exactly the kind of thinking that I realize maybe we should all be pushing back against where like let's let's go through and look at some of the profiles of these players I don't think San Diego got nearly enough credit for the talent that they attracted right I mean I had I had real concerns about how the

back line would would fare this year but you go and look at like if you'd watch some Miepe Tverskov tape. Like, it wouldn't have taken a lot of effort to go and see how good that guy is. We know a good Luca Deloori is. We know how good Chickulizano and Anders Dreyer are going to be. If you look at Dreyer's profile, like, there's so much to like about this team. There were questions. I'm not trying to deny that.

And I'm not trying to spin my past take. I was wrong, to be clear. But I think it is time to start thinking about expansion teams as, as like, outfits that can compete from the jump in San Diego, to their absolute credit, have done a better job than any team in MLS history. I'm super high on them, even in the playoffs. I love what they've done. they're in for a lot of success both now and in the future.

I like that one. What's number two? All right, number two. Ernst Tanner deserves more credit. This is something that I've argued with a number of people about. I argued about it when Jim Curtin was let go. And I have a lot of Jim Curtin stock, to be very clear. I think he's a very capable MLS coach. I think this is sort of a side point.

I think it would be very curious to see what a Jim Curtin-led team looks like, assuming we get that at some point in the next few years, given that he switched his approach under Ernst Tanner when it goes from Ernie Stewart to Ernst Tanner in that front office. he starts playing in a very different way then it sort of fades a little bit back closer to where he was before it's interesting to see what Curtin's going to do

but you go through and look at the Philadelphia Union's success their success starts really when Ernst Tanner shows up and I think we had good reason to believe between the underlying numbers last year and Ernst Tanner's track record in MLS we had good reason to believe that this was going to be a bounce back year for them and again I was too low on Philly I mean everybody was too low on Philly I don't think anybody

had them as shield winners but I was certainly too low on Philly and Ernst Tanner deserves a lot of credit for the roster build, that organization, the front office, for the talent that they continue to find from areas that really nobody else in MLS is going out and having those sorts of hit rates from. Ernst Tanner, I think, has proven that he was not right to handle that situation how he did. And Tom, you know far more about that than I do. I'm not trying to justify some of the frozen personality stuff. That's difficult.

But when it comes to the build in Philly, it's really good, man. And Ernst Tanner driving that ship, like you can't do anything but look at that. and say, this guy deserves some real credit and probably more credit than most people were given him. Yeah, it's just a shame that the personal relationship between Ernst Tanner and Jim Curtin went down to, like, because they worked really well together, and I thought that they compliment each other,

because even the frictions that they had, I think that they filled blind spots for both of them. And, yeah, they had so much success together. But Ernst Center is one of, if not the best, 40 director in this league. And it's not just doing it once. It's, it is hard as it is to, have one of the lowest payrolls and transfer fee expenditure in the league. It's hard enough to do

that once, but it's possible. It is near impossible. This is probably the third iteration of this team. So you start with the Casper Shibilko, Kai Wagner, when they came in in 19, Brendan Aronson breaks through, and then the team starts getting turned over. I think I'd call this the third iteration of the team. It's impossible. And you look at a lot of the players that have left, like they've been really staunch on not or like hey this is our this is our valuation of you and if you like we just disagree maybe it's going to get a little bit contentious but they don't block anybody from moves either they could have told or could have tried to tell daniel god's dog hey we'll move you in the winter we'll see we'll see it out all right well you want

a new contract okay if Columbus is going to give it to fine train whatever who cares i know we started off the season really well and you're like our our leading score i don't whatever okay um cash mr belco yeah go go to chicago like whatever and then guess what bang like the next player comes in and the next player comes in and the next player comes in one of my one of the early instances

where it was kind of clear I think to me that Earth Center was was a really really good of this job was Jose Martinez so the previous year was a really good team

Harris Medunian was the 6 and Harrison Mdunianin one that is the streets don't forget MLS player if I've ever seen one he's awesome he's really good well his best qualities don't exactly fit the motto that Ernst Tanner wanted to play and what he said he was going to do

when he came here. He declines the option on Medunian. I don't know if there was another person in the union organization that agreed with that decision. He was just kind of like, he was being even more collaborative then from my understanding. And so they had,

or either brought in or already had Marco Fabian. So he said, okay, fine. You sign him? I don't think we should, but whatever. I'm doing this, right? And then in preseason, the story I heard is just like, the sentiment was still.

why did you ruin a good theme? Who is this guy, who is this random guy from Venezuela, whatever, right? Like, you're ruining this team. I can't believe that you made this. What an awful decision. We told you, we were right. Jose Martinez plays that last game

before the COVID-19 break in the 2020 season against L.A.F.C. And he was, astonishingly good. They did not hear one more criticism about Harris-Mudin it again after that. So, like, while Ernst Tanner, again, the interpersonal relationship should be better.

You think he's to the point where he's like, he's like, I know I'm right. I know so I'm going to do this, right? And again, I do think Jim Curtin's going to have a ton of success wherever he goes next, but it's hard not to say that, you know, Ernst's standard, the way he wanted to play the way the team wanted to play. It's worked out. None of us saw them getting all the way up to first here and one hand on the shield. But yeah, he's one of the best sporting records in his league.

Agreed. Yeah, I love that anecdote, Tom. That captures so much of that so well. Number three, Ricky Pooch should be wrecked. retroactively awarded the 2024 MVP award. I believe this very strongly. And let me frame this through the lens of Gabriel Peck, a player who I think is fantastic, a player who had real interest last offseason who still is interest from European teams.

Gabriel Peck is a great player, I think. He had 16 goals last year and 12 assists last year. Amazing season. He won new curve of the year, didn't he, if memory serves. He was awesome. This year, Gabriel Peck has six goals and has one assist and his underlying numbers have cratered. That crater's name is Ricky Pooge's ACL. It is so clear to me that the Galaxy's amazing attacking players, I think are still good players, but they are not $20 million

player. Gabriel Peck is not a $20 million player without Ricky Pooch. And I think maybe some European teams have benefited slightly from Ricky Pooge's injury and realizing that Peck is good. He's not as good as good as not as good as much less likely to move for as much money, obviously than Peck. But Pantel's good. You know, great. He scored a hat-trick against SKC over the weekend. Let's, that's great.

But these guys are not the same without Ricky Pooge. Ricky Pooge was the LA Galaxy last season. Ricky Pooge was that MLS Cup win. I realized that. I think we all realized it at the time. But to the extent at which Ricky Pooge mattered for the Galaxy last year hadn't sunk in for me. And I really don't think it sunk in for most people because if it had,

he would have been MVP. Yeah. I got a joke when I did like my kind of MVP. breakdown in July and like you got a text from from a sporting executive it's like it's Ricky Booch is no quite like it's so clear like again I we all knew that they would take a step back like we all have eyeballs we can see how great he is uh but it my god like there's more problems for the galaxy but I think Ricky Booch would have papered over a decent amount of them I don't think they'd be a cup contender this year with all the other issues but I think

they'd be in the playoffs and that's yeah it's astonishing how how much they've missed him and how great he is how singular he is in this league yeah 100% agree And it's hard because you don't vote for MVP before. You do vote for MVP, excuse me, before MLS Cup. So we didn't really have the full picture even then at the time. The Galaxy were not the top seat in the Western Conference. I mean, there were things that had to happen for that to make sense. But, man, every time I watched the Galaxy play this year, and I've watched them too much.

It's just so clear. So that's my third one. Number four, rebuilding an MLS does not have to take forever. And there are a lot of teams that struggle in MLS consistently. And we are trying to rebuild and cannot find it. But we have a growing pile of evidence. now that you can do it efficiently and you can do it really well. And Minnesota United are the most recent example of that in my mind.

Where in Minnesota, yes, they have tailed off at a really unfortunate moment where they lose Kelvin Yaboah in the U.S. Open Cup. They lose Carlos Harvey. Shout out, Phoenix Rising Legend, Carlos Harvey. They've sold Tanya Lois Shea. Like, there have been outgoing as a difficult moment for them. You can blame the calendar for that. You can blame whatever you want.

But they're third in the Western Conference right now. They're a top 10 team in MLS on total points right now. They're even, I think, better than they might be eighth in the MLS on points, something along those lines. they're really good and this team was not really good two years ago where all of a sudden you have the regime change after Adrian Heath ends up departing the club and is let go and and you have the window that is before you have the winter window last year you have the summer window last year and you have the winter window and the summer window for transfer windows is all that it's taken Minnesota United to become I think a part of the class of MLS where you look at them and what they're doing right now

they have a clear way of playing they've identified players that are really impressive level they're doing innovative things when it comes to their organization, they're scouting and their work with American soccer analysis on the data side. They're finding players. They are built this team into one of the better outfits in MLS. When I think about recent rebuilds in the league that teams should be modeling themselves after,

I think about FC Cincinnati in 2022. I think about the LA Galaxy when Wilkins comes into that team. And I think about Minnesota United. Like they are on that list for me of recent teams that have done almost everything right. If you follow the model, if you got the right people involved, if you can find the right players, it doesn't have to take forever.

Like, don't let your MLS team sell you on, oh, well, we made ninth. Like, oh, we made the playoffs. That's so great. You know, we're making progress. You can do better than that in MLS. It's possible in Minnesota are the latest example. I like this view. That was convincing.

Thanks, no, no, no. Like, I think that you're right, but I think mine would be, I don't know that I would hold that as a standard because then we're just going to fire sporting directors and head coaches every other year, essentially. And then you just get run in. to this cycle, like, I think it's possible. I wouldn't put it as the rule, but I, like, you made a very convincing argument there, like Cincinnati before Minnesota. I will say more of these seem to, and Wilford-Nazi as well with Columbus, not like, I think

we all knew that that was a good team that he was taking over and they made some tweaks. But for the most part, again, outside of Nancy, it seems to be the, like, transition, high pressing is a pretty high floor. and I'm curious how that's going to evolve in the future though because if it gets to a point where everybody's doing it then there goes the edge and what does that do for

the watchability which doesn't matter team to team all you care about is getting the points and then kind of the one way that a league is being played and like I think about the Blunez Liga like you see a Blunis League even know the style like a lot of those teams play high pressing and energy

and then it's the same coaches just getting recycled into the same different teams because that's their specialty but But I do think that that's, it is unique in MLS just because there's a salary gap where you can't have a buyer that has, you know, there are ways to flex your spending power, but there is still a baseline for so many teams. But yeah, I find that interesting. It's just there's a growing number of really good, I think, CSOs and number two is a number. Like the edge had been like building out front offices and getting those right people. And now there's a lot of them in the league, which is a great sign of growth.

but I wonder in a few years will we be thinking the same thing and thinking like, oh, man, like there's a lot of good GMs and head coaches and infrastructure that are going to fall below the playoff line, you know what I mean? Yeah, no, totally agree. And I think one example, Tom, of what you're saying of, well, if you make that the standard, if we make all of a sudden skyrocketing up to third or whatever in your conference the standard for this rebuild,

you end up really having a difficult, it's a high bar, right? Chicago, I think are a good example of this, where I think they've had a really successful first year. I agree. author, and they've turned around really well, we can feed in the context that the Eastern Conference is amazing, and that Chicago run 51 points, and there's somehow still a wildcard team. Like, they would be pushing for the fourth seat in the Western Conference. Like, we can feed in other contexts around us as to how good these teams should be. I just think if I was a

fan of an MLS team, like, I don't know, let's pick St. Louis as an example. They've got a lot of things yet to be decided. If I'm a fan of St. Louis, I expect to see some real progress fairly quickly. Like, it's possible. Don't tell me it's not possible. Like, Rebuilding an MLS is not like rebuilding in a lot of leagues or like trying to get better in basically any other soccer league on the planet. It is possible to do it quickly. It's not easy to do, not to minimize that. But I think we have a growing list of examples that says,

hey, you can do it if you make the right decisions early on. You won me over. I like it. I agree. Let's go. All right. Number five, there's a place for the dual head coach CSO role just to stick with that very, very quickly.

This one doesn't need to be a long one. This is an unpopular pin and I'm with you. So I was not hot on the Chicago Fire's decision to give so much control to Greg Berlter. Now, I think Greg Barlter is a really smart guy. And so maybe that was a bad example to sort of use as my, oh, I'm against this idea of giving one person all of the control thing because, okay, if your roster build isn't good and you've let down yourself as the coach, and then if you're coaching, I mean, like,

we see it in Kansas City, right, where it can break down. And I had worries about that. And Berlter has done a really good job. Bruce Arena, I think, has done a pretty darn good job, too, over in the Western Conference, where hasn't been probably quite as good relative to the competition that they've played as a Western Conference team as what Chicago have done, but this feels relevant around Jim Curtin right now or, you know, who knows what other decisions are going to get made this offseason and beyond. But if, and this is the key, and I don't know actually as much about

how Bruce Arena has done this in San Jose, but Berlter was very intentional about building out of staff around him, right, where we brought in a lot, okay, there you go, right? You bring in high qualified people around you to help, and yes, you're going to have the final say on these kinds of things. But I was critical. I wrote a piece about it for back yield, like this is the fire sort of operating in a way that the MLS teams had stopped operating. and that was a little concerning, given how poor they'd been for a long time. But it's works, man. Like, I'll eat crow.

I guess all these lists are just me eating crow, basically. That's everything on this list. I'm happy to eat crow. Like, it is worked for Chicago. It's worked for San Jose. And if it's the right person, I don't know how many other people there are that I think would fit in that category. But if it is the right person and they're going to do it in a way that actually has a

structure around them, go for it, man. Like, I think I was hesitant about that in a way I didn't quite need to be. Two things. You're allowed to take your victory laps here. if that happens to be coming over the last couple. But I don't think that we would have loved it if you were just like, hey, remember in preseason when I said this? I was right.

That was the most important thing. Everything else was stupid. I don't care. I was right the whole time. They just let me down. I think that's fair. And I think it's a sign of great, great strength and security to be able to point out when you're wrong.

And I think it gives you more credit when you have to point out when you're right. Anyway, I agree with this show. And you nailed it. Point by point, I don't think most teams should do this. I think few teams should do this. But in the case of Chicago Fire, that was my whole argument. You're not getting Greg Burrhalter without giving them the CSO title, one.

So I think that's a worthwhile tradeoff for where this club was and the circumstances there within. And two, while Burrhalter likes to control a lot of details, he's been good at delegating. And to your point, building out a really good staff. Greg Broughton, he was at Blackburn. He was, I believe he was at Bodil Glimpse before that. Like, he's somebody who has a lot of high-level experience in, like, in, in, in, in, in, and he wasn't like, you know, the administrative assistant. Like, he was in serious decision-making powers for those clubs.

And he's the number two. They bring over Mikey Stevens from the LA Galaxy. Eddie Rock has been there for a long time. He's very well-respected. I'm certain that I'm forgetting somebody in this front office. Like, the whole point is that, like, Greg Burlter isn't negotiating every single deal. He's not, like, there's not enough time in the day, and that's kind of when you might slip on signings and then you just start relying on agents and stuff.

No, no, no, like they have a robust front office, and that is a non-negotiable and two, you need to have somebody who is secure enough to delegate and trust the people around them. Bruce Arena in New England, Chris Tierney, Remy Roy, those are a couple really good examples. Kurtunoffel ends up getting the CSO job after Bruce leaves. Like, he's, Bruce is very collaborative, and he's doing the same thing in San Jose. Brett Carleen, Chris Leach is still there. Why am I blanking on the guy who came from Montreal? Tom's Googling.

Vasili. Vasili. Like, that's right there. Those are three, four people that, like, it's not just Bruce calling agents. It's not just Bruce doing stuff. And same thing with Greg Barletter here. So I think that is a non-negotiable if you're going to go this way. Again, sporting Kansas City, I thought it was smart that they hire CSL

and then CSO hires a head coach. But, like, to your point about Jim Curtin, I don't know if he's asking for that. Sure. I would be surprised if he is, but I know that he's earned a point in his career where he should be getting a strong amount of say. And if you're a team that's trying to. convinced Jim Gurn to come to your team, you have to give him that to have any chance to give him. And so it's a case-by-case basis where if the candidate is strong enough and, again,

hypothetically, if Pep Gordiola called one of the city and says, I'm interested in coming, but I have to be CSO and head coach. You do? I can't do it, Pep. Sorry, dude. Listen, we got a couple of guys in the front of us. We like a lot here. Sorry, we can't give too much control.

Right? Like, the special coaches and the ones who have earned it, they should get it. It's not something that I would recommend as a baseline, but I think that there's mitigating circumstances. Yep, love that. All right. Number six on my list. Cashers are even more impactful than I thought they'd be.

I love this rule, dude. The one that crystallized this for me was the Georgie trade, which I know you guys discussed. We discussed a bunch over in TSS and back hill as well. Like, this is, that was the one for me. God's dog, a little less so, but that fits into this group. But Georgie, a mid-season acquisition for a foundational piece for a new era with a The CSO and Jason Hernandez, who's relatively new to having the actual decision-making power in Toronto, that he went out and said, hey, I want to go get one player that's already well-known inside of MLS and have him be one of my guys. Like, I don't need the ego hit of going and finding that per, or the ego boost, right, of going on and finding that player on my own and getting the credit for it.

Like, Tyler Heaps gets with Dreyer, as you should, right? Like, that's just, that's an example. Not to say Heaps is like an eomaniac or anything like that. Like, it's what you here, though, with, with expansion teams. Like, they want to go and pick their own DPs, right? understandable. But with Toronto going out and getting Georgie or or even Gosdaq for Issa Tal, like that being his first DP move in Columbus, it is relevant.

Like that shows that this rule is going to have an impact moving forward. I firmly believe that. Now, you're really going to continue to see it primarily on prime roster spots because of the transfer fees. So you're not going to see it for like, you know, your middle of the roster guys. You're going to see it for U22s and her DP. So that does put a pretty hard cap at the moment with how molest is constructed for how impactful that rule is going to be but that clubs and i know for a fact there were other teams

that were sniff around georgie like other other cashers that were in discussions for the summer window like teams are taking this seriously and they don't need they don't feel that they have to go out and only sign players from abroad they feel like they can go out there and yes they're going to pay a premium fair enough for these guys but they're willing to do that and we've seen that over and over and over again across the winter across the summer and that makes me so happy because it's so good it's so juicy tom it's so juicy this is this has been pivotal and so I think to your point as well I thought that this was a seismic change

and I believe that you did too the Georgie one was the one that made me rethink it as well that like okay Evander this was clear Lucho and Sincetius is clear these were a couple ones where it was yeah these are going to leave and it's great it is really important that these guys are going to get to stay in MLS

there was a time in the winter where I didn't know if this was just agents trying to get deals done or putting leverage on teams but like I just hurt was pick any DP number 10 in MLS that you think is halfway good. Right. I would hear somebody say, hey, I wonder if we could sign.

I wonder if, you know, insert this team could sign him. And I was like, like, why would you bother calling Nashville about Honey Muktar? But I would have said, why would you bother calling Philadelphia about Daniel Goddard? Right. Why would you bother calling Colorado about Georgia Mihalovich? So I didn't clock that side of the importance of not just the like, okay, when somebody's disgruntled and Avander wants to leave Portland, he gets to say in MLS, which is great and really good for the league. I didn't think about the other way

where Colorado don't want to lose Georgia Bahaovich but Toronto want them more than that so at the end of the day that move is going to happen and man like it's that that's something to look for I think in the future and I'm sure that teams were ahead of this trend than I was but I wonder if

other teams were like hindsight's easy for Atlanta United would they have used all three DP spots on cashers would they have why didn't would they have spent $22 million on Cucci Hernandez. I have no idea of Cucho would have gone or not, but like, in hindsight. Kind of feels like it, huh? Just go get a Vander and Cucho and Santi Rodriguez. Why not?

Yeah, I was going to say Evander Cucho and then Pater Mousa. Like, I mean, if we're talking about guys that I would think about, really calling and then maybe calling again, Pater Moussa is one of them. He's been amazing for Dallas, who are, to their credit, Eric Quill, I think it's done a really good job in the post-Lucho era of reformatting how this team plays. They are now more Minnesota-United E than Minnesota when it comes defending deep in their own third. But Moose has a name I would think about, and then Davin Martinez at L.A.F.C. He's now been buried.

It feels like at least a little bit under Andrew Moran, which I don't know if Moran's going to be around next year or not. I know his contracts only through the end of this year as announced. But I do think Davin Martinez is legit and Chirondolo doesn't seem to rate him. I mean, maybe six round in L.A. Because there's going to be a coaching change. Maybe he goes to Europe. I assume that's his ambition.

But there are guys. Like there are DPs and their U-22s that I would take a long, long look at and call over and over again to figure out if I could get a deal. done. So that makes me very happy. The U-22s, too, I think, is a good one. Sorry to... No, that's fine. Like, I like, Colorado's the team, I think, is going to be on that end. Like, I know a lot of teams like Logan Farrington, that was chief among them, right? Like, that's time ago. I don't know. Nathan Ordaz. If you see L.A.F.C. go for another U-22 guy or, you know, Sun comes in and belongings stays, and then, like, if you're

Nathan Ordez, like, Colorado might look pretty good. Like, I know, like, these teams are identifying players around the league. That feels, Tom, that could not be... more perfect. And maybe, I don't know how that sort of stuff. Ordas just feels like a rapids player. Like that's destined to happen. That's in this car. Right.

It's like in a very positive way. So, no, that I love that take. I love that take. Wait, is this number seven? Yeah, number seven. Closing out. MLS, Tom, I don't know if you knew this. It's a 28 team league.

They're actually only 28 teams in it. Because D.C. and Montreal don't belong. This is nothing against fans of those clubs. I want to be very clear. I feel bad, too. Before this year, to me, there may have been, some nice things about Montreal said on this show. Montreal looked hopeless from before this thing kicked off.

I have some Laurent Courtois stock. I have some Corey Ray stock. I think they had some smart people involved. Those people are all gone, by the way. This roster was not a serious roster when the season started. It's no surprise to me that they were one of the first teams eliminated from the postseason. They do not build serious major league soccer teams. They just don't, right?

And that I think it was pretty clear before it started. And it's pretty clear now. DC United, we've learned this year also are not a serious soccer team. And you could do, and you guys have spent plenty of time on this, and you could if you chose to just really dig the knife in, do multiple entire episodes on DC United and all of the wild stuff that happened this year. Remember the Mateus Click thing? That was fun, wasn't it? Remember the Paul Pagba thing where they stick with that 3DP 3U22 initiative model all year long? Because ownership told Alan McKay that that's what they needed to do when they really were never actually going to sign Paul Pogba.

That was cool, man. Like, MLS is a 2018 league right now. And I hope that changes for these teams. I really do. Like, I hope that Saputo's have like a come to Jesus moment. I hope that DC United's ownership has a come to Jesus moment because it's embarrassing, man. Like, it's actually embarrassing what the product that those two clubs have put out on the field. It's through not a lot of fault of the people that are employed by ownership there.

Not that great jobs are done across the board, sporting-wise, especially at D.C. this year. Man, like, I don't know how you look at those teams if you're MLS and not think, like, how do we fix this? Like, genuinely, Montreal may be a little less so, because I don't know that they're as core. of a market to MLS and how the league office maybe would think about things. Montrose is a great market. It is like and that plays jumps. Like you think about the Nacho Piotti, Diego, DDA drug

that year. Yeah, it's like, even the Wolfrenonse a year that should have been a lot of years. That playoff that playoff can have against Orlando right in 2022. Like that game was awesome. Like not to dismiss Montres. The great great fans there. But like DC especially I think for MLS is like an important

market and I don't it's so bad. Dude, it's so bad. Like, they are not trying to do the same thing that the other 28 teams and the officers trying to do. There are a lot of teams outside of those two that are doing a bad job, to be very clear. Right. But those two are in a class of their own, man, in the worst way.

Like, it is, it hurts. It just hurts. Oh, not that this is solace to anybody, but Jacksonville Jaguars could probably fit this in the NFL and the NFL's still doing all right. The Oakland Athletics in, or what are they called? Now, the Sacramento, or just the athletics, whatever the hell that, has been,

they've been a joke to the MLB. they're doing our right. So like that shouldn't stop us from trying to solve it, but that happens, I guess, unfortunately. And even if you talk about pro-Row, Manchester United is still a joke in England, so they haven't been relocated yet.

True, man. Again, that is the best. Like, I've been mean enough to these teams that I'll leave it. Yeah, we can park it there. That's my last one. There's my top seven. Oh, Joe, I loved that.

That was delightful. I appreciate you doing that. How do you come up with this on such short notice? Again, peek behind the curtain here. I gave Joe, I don't know, 10 minutes and I was like hey this is probably too soon and he goes two minutes later he goes I'll be all right three minutes later yeah I got it we're good how did you get all those like deeply well thought and nuanced arguments Tom the answer is I'm a broken man

I think about this too much and I I I shouldn't so I know you can relate to that dude we're in the same book um the US national team roster was released Joe any any big picture thoughts Tyler Adams is missing because he and his he and his partner are expecting their first child so So I, again, I'm all for people being with the national team. I really like that Pocetino is allowing Adam to not be there for the birth of his kid. But that was the biggest name that was missing. You know, no Giorana, no Joe Scali, no Josh Sargent. I don't want to read off the roster because everyone's brain is just going to melt.

But, let's see, Aronson's back. Mark McKenzie's back. Matt Freeze is still there with Turner's back in goal. So we'll see kind of who gets to start in these games. Adjamong returns, Hidu Wright returns, and Deos retains his place. Christian Rodan retains his place. And for me, the biggest kind of new addition, Aidan Morse, thought this was overdue. I'm really happy that he's getting to beat with the team.

And Joe, that's probably the player I'm most looking forward to seeing, just because I think we know a lot about a lot of the other guys. But what about you? What are a couple of your thoughts here on the roster? Yeah, there's an opportunity at the 6th with no Adams, no Johnny Cardoso, both of those guys unavailable, Cardoso with injury, Adams, for reasons you've already mentioned. so whether that's Morris or really really quick i believe morgan sends a uh admin chief chief admin uh good friend she has reporting that this is tyler's second shot so apologies for saying

first there you go good good catch good catch exciting times for the adams no doubt um i think there is an opportunity at the six i don't know who that's going to be more i think has earned a look a back from pachino and s i think has earned a first look under pachino i don't know who came in late when jack mcglin left late i don't know who that was maybe maybe that's in the attacking midfield group because there's a bunch of those dudes in this team like way more than you can probably even play across both of these games against Ecuador and Australia. For me, the top line takeaway is that Pachitino has started to cut guys from like the reasonable pool of players for the World Cup. And the three guys I think are very clearly not going to be there are Josh Sergeant, Yunis Musa, and Joe Scali, where there's was already a window where Pachino said he was going to potentially go a little lighter on MLS call-ups.

So that does maybe explain, maybe not, but could, explain no Ceperltaire, no Gavela-Torre, but he didn't say that. for the European guys. Like, he was making special accommodations for the MLS postseason in the stretch run. Sergeant Musa and Scali are all healthy. Like, they're all playing games. Musa just played in the Champions League.

Scali's been playing well for glove back. Sargent's been doing his thing for Norwich. They're not here. Pach doesn't rate those guys. That seems very, very clear to me. I think Scali more than the other two. Oh, I agree. And with Scali,

with Scali certainly seems like there was maybe some other stuff happened and back in the March window where him and Gio were up to some old tricks. Like, no Giorina either in this group. And that's not surprised. because he's injured, he's injured, but Potch didn't even call him over the summer, right?

Didn't even call him to see if he could get out of Dormant, according to Doug McIntyre. So I don't think we're going to see Joe with the World Cup. I heard that as well, by the way, too. Yeah, there you go. Absolutely. But we're not, I would be shocked if we see Josh Sergeant Eunice and Joe Scali at the World Cup, barring a major run of injuries. That feels like the most notable takeaway.

It's unfortunate that there is as many injuries as there are in this group. No peppy, no Cardoso, no McGlynn, no desk. It's a long list of guys that are not here because of fitness. But we're getting closer to this being Potch's real work. World Cup roster. It's a fine squad by and large, but those guys missed out, I think, are going to continue to miss out. Yeah, it is unfortunate. And then again, I'm looking forward to this window. So they play Ecuador, they play Australia. Ecuador, I think, is going to be a really good challenge. Yeah, totally. Not to be distressed for Australia, but I'm just more

looking forward to that match against Ecuador. Zendejas is another guy. I'm looking forward to see you. I'm glad that you said something about James Stance. Tanner Testman, too. He's been really, really good for Leone. Yeah, yes. And I'm glad that they didn't get relocated and then he had to find a new club. What would you make kind of of the defensive unit, Cameron Carter Vickers, Chris Richards, Tim Rie, Mark McKenzie, and Miles Robinson are the five centerbacks. You think that we're going to see three centerbacks. Do you think that that is a window into their decision-making? I think it's possible. And when you look at there being five centerbacks and three fullbacks, and oh, by the way, one of those fullbacks is Anthony Robinson, who's not fully fit right now,

or at least hasn't been playing 90s for Fulham. He played 10 over the weekend in the premier League against Aston Villa for Fulham. I don't know if, I mean, Potch's track record with being very gentle with a lot of these guys fitness-wise doesn't make me think that we're going to see Jeddie Robinson get two 90s in this window. So it makes me think that there's probably a back three in here somewhere. I think there was a lot of overreaction from big segments of the fan base after the back three looked fine, like maybe even better than fine against Japan in that second game.

Potch was pretty clear that they used that as a way to simplify the game and they went more man-oriented because Japan were also playing a three-four-three. and the South Korea game was so bad, so bad defensively that they felt like they had to adjust. I think everybody sort of came out of the game thinking, oh, wow, the U.S. is a back three team now. Potch just hedged against that in multiple interviews since then and talked about how they want to have flexibility to do multiple things. Maybe he's blowing smoke, and they are a back three team. But I look at this team, and it's very possible that we see that in this window. I think the centerback pool is very clearly Ream and Richards plus however many guys Potch wants to bring, whether that's two players or three.

Last window, it was Blackman and Banks that came in. Blackman's obviously hurt right now. We talked about that earlier. But CCB, McKenzie, and Robinson are all back in this team. They've all been in under Potch before. He's clearly not enamored with any of the guys that are not named Riemer or Richards. And then at fullback, I think Arstyn is very much one of his guys. Like he'll be at the World Cup.

And Alex Freeman seems to be as well. Freeman's going to get a bunch of minutes in this window. Maybe we see Tim Wea slide back and play some right wing back. He's been doing outside back stuff from Marseille. Potch wasn't very pleased that he hasn't been playing us a winger from Marseille after the last window. He talked about that. It was a bit frustrated. Maybe he's going to bend and put way up in an outside back spot. I don't know what this looks like, but it's Ream and Richards plus some question marks, at least in the middle of the backline right now. I would agree.

Hopefully we get some answers to that. Looking forward to it for the two games of the U.S. Men's National Team, obviously, Canada, are playing as well. Should be a fun window. All these games are getting one step closer to the 2026 World Cup. But Joe Lowry, thank you so very much for joining us. You are the man. Love spending time and talking to you. everybody, I hope that you know about Backhield. I'm sure you do if you're listening to the show. But again, please subscribe to Backhield. Read what Joe does at Backhield.

And I don't know, anything that ends in dot com. You could also maybe find some of Joe's wearing a job. Listen to Total Soccer Show. If you're in the area, watch Phoenix Rising and you get to hear that lovely voice on the broadcast. Tom, thanks. Checks on the mail, dude. All right, everybody. That'll do it for today.

We'll be back next week. I believe David Goss will be back on this. that he needs more time to atone for his sins, which is very, very possible. Uh, but... To use David Goss to talk to you all. Very, very soon.