Social Work Spotlight - Episode 107: Cass

Episode Date: April 12, 2024

In this episode I speak with Cass, a respectful child protection social worker and supervisor with a therapeutic mindset, committed to addressing social issues through innovative approaches and challenging injustices with kindness and empathy. Cass is dedicated to promoting inclusivity and advocacy for marginalised communities through systemic change.Links to resources mentioned in this week’s episode:Winangay resources for Aboriginal kids and families - https://www.winangay.com/resourcesKevin Campbell’s Family Finding and Family Seeing - https://www.familyfinding.org/our-team & https://www.familyseeing.org/aboutThe Last Daughter film - https://www.thelastdaughter.com.au/After the Apology film - https://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/tv-program/after-the-apology/1333274179947This episode's transcript can be viewed here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yenw8UAoUc_iGd7KbqyMXOO9mAYgPCoSK02sakvUxlg/edit?usp=sharingThanks to Kevin Macleod of incompetech.com for our theme music.

I begin today by acknowledging the Gadigal people of the Eura Nation, traditional custodians of the land on which I record this podcast, and pay my respects to their elders past and present. I extend that respect to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people listening today. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples have an intrinsic connection to this land and have cared for country for over 60,000 years, with their way of life having been devastated by colonisation. Hi and welcome to Social Work Spotlight where I showcase different areas of the profession in each episode.

I'm your host, Jasmine Lupus, and today's guest is Cass, a respectful child protection social worker and supervisor with a therapeutic mindset, committed to addressing social issues through innovative approaches and challenging injustices with kindness and empathy. Cass is dedicated to promoting inclusivity and advocacy for marginalized communities through systemic change. Thank you, Cass, for coming onto the podcast and meeting with me today and having a chat about your experience in social work so far. Thank you for having me. I always ask, firstly, when you started as a social worker and what brought you to the profession? So I finished my social work degree at the end of 2015, so graduating class of 2016. What brought me to the profession? I kind of stumbled into the profession.

So I initially wanted to get into forensics, but, you know, did not, I guess, have the focus to be able to get the marks that I needed to get into forensics. So I ended up studying policing and was possibly going to go to the police force and work my way up and possibly become a detective. I got two years into that when it came down to actually going down to the academy and was like, oh my God, I don't want to be police. officer like I don't think I can do this so then I finished the Bachelor of Social

Science so I think I have a major in criminology and then I then went on to do a Bachelor of Social Work as well because there was a lot of overlap in subjects and so it wasn't really until my first work placement that I which was in residential use care that I kind of realized okay yeah this is how I want to help people I I think, you know, the more that I was studying policing, the more that I realized, you know, if I was faced with somebody who was having like a mental health episode, we would have to arrest them. So it wasn't really, you know, it was that kind of ethical dilemma around like this person needs

help. But yes, I understand they're breaking the law. And it just didn't really sit well with me in that system in that way. So it wasn't really what I wanted to do and how I wanted to help people. Can I ask what the interest in forensics and criminology is. is for you personally and what you see as the crossover now from those subjects to social work. I'm not really sure. Like, I think that I just used to really love watching crime shows. And I think Lauren Auto Sv was mine and my sister's, like, favorite show that we used to watch

all the time. I guess, like, seeing the way that they kind of helped and supported people, I would say I'm quite inquisitive, like in my nature. I think that would, you know, maybe has what drawn me to that kind of profession. And I think, you know, there are some parallels with social work, particularly child protection social work that I work in at the moment where you are doing that investigation to kind of find out what these people, like, you know, the family's strengths and needs are and how we can kind of support them.

There are so many people that I've met more recently, and I guess in the last few years, who have also studied criminology and then gone on to social work. So it's just really interesting to see that development and how people make sense of, and then the crossover. And I guess it would have helped then studying social work from that point. Yeah. And I wonder if it comes down to a justice lens. Like I think criminology is very much justice, but social work is social justice.

Yeah. Absolutely. And then you got into the residential youth placement and I guess that's solidified. Yep, you've made the right decision and switching over. Yeah, yeah, definitely. What was your second placement then? So my second placement was in a child youth and families program in South West Sydney. And that was really, I guess it really opened the eyes for me around how important that family preservation work is because there was a lot of young people in residential youth care who at times, at times, would come into residential youth care and would be going to school, doing kind of well, and then over time they would kind of fall into the wrong crowd.

And you sit and you talk to some of these youth, and the way that they would make sense of their childhood was as though if my family just got support, then I wouldn't be where I am. And when I was working in the Child Youth and Families program, I realized how much prevention can work for families and for the children and to, to prevent them from escalating into the out-of-home care system and prevent them from escalating, you know, into the justice system later in life as well because, you know, we know that out-of-home care

doesn't have the best outcomes for children. I'm not saying that all children who are in foster care grow up to have negative outcomes, but, you know, the statistics out there don't lie in saying that there's a lot of complexities that come into people who have grown, up in out of home care and that, you know, the trauma that they experience from not only within their families, but then the attachment trauma they experienced from being ripped away

from their families, you know, has a lifelong impact on them. Yeah, absolutely. And social work has a very sad and shameful history in Australia, particularly working with First Nations communities and colonisation. Do you feel that was represented well, taught well in your course? So we're talking, when did I first start uni? So 2010, to be honest, I don't remember much from my undergrad. And I don't, like, it was touched upon. But I think trauma and the impact of trauma on lifespan and development, there wasn't enough that was kind of taught at uni.

I remember coming back from my first placement, you have to do presentations. and like, you know, what did you learn on placement or something that you've learnt? And I did a presentation on trauma-informed care. And I remember some of the peers in class were like, oh, my gosh, how did none of us know this? And it was just, yeah, it was really interesting. I mean, it was a while ago now. I don't know what the social work course looks like these days.

But, yeah, so I think on the job learning and that professional development, or I guess work placement really set me up for success in, you know, the child protection sector because I was able to actually have the time to do research and learning, particularly in that first placement as well. Yeah, for sure. And did that then inform what you wanted to do as your first job out? Yep, definitely. So I, from the Child Youth and Families program, I went to then working in a Brighter Futures program. So it's kind of, the Child Youth and Families was intensive family support and then Brighter Futures was like early intervention. So instead of twice a week, it was once a week or once a fortnight.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Do you feel like it would have been different if you'd had the other way around, if you'd had the early intervention experience and then the intensive family support? No, I think my learning has been just really kind of lifelong. I think where it has ruined me a little bit is because my current role now, I'm a therapeutic specialist in an NGO where I work with families and family preservation and out of home care. and I think out-of-home care is a particularly challenging space for me to work in because I'm so passionate about family preservation. Yeah. Okay. So brighter futures, early intervention, how long were you there and what was the progression? So I was there for nearly four years.

I was a caseworker, so a therapeutic caseworker. We had such a great team like at the time that I was there. we had a wonderful team leader, may she rest in peace, Leanne Zimbler. She was an amazing mentor and light, and it's just an amazing social worker who really just believed and lit, like she was the embodiment of a social worker.

She just wanted people to be the best versions of themselves and that really trickled down into us, which then trickled down into our work and the work that we did with children and family. Our team had a lot of fun working with these children and families as well because we were able to be creative and think outside the box in terms of risk mitigation and using lots of different tools and strengths cards and, you know, just different things to try and address risk and increase parents' confidence in their parenting and, you know, just, yeah, keep them together.

How did you know it was the right time then to move on after four years? because that's quite a while for your first job out. Yeah, I guess what Leanne really kind of showed me was how important leadership is for social workers and for good outcomes and for children and families. So at that point, I was ready to take on a new challenge and go into leadership. And I guess where I was at was kind of, you know, we're doing a lot of therapeutic work and it was kind of bordering on, you know, if I go one question further, that would be like bordering on counselling.

So I was kind of at a point like, do I want to go the more therapeutic route? Or do I want to go into like team leading and management and, you know, continue passing on the skills and the strengths that I had learned from her so that, you know, I guess that best practice can be influenced in others as well. And so I, yeah, got a job at the NGO that I am currently working for. And I started there as a senior social worker in at the end of 2019. And I have been there ever since. I've been there in two different roles.

Shortly after starting there, I became the program manager of a family preservation program. So I was managing, I guess, three small teams across three different offices in Greater Sydney in like the super intensive permanency support program the family preservation program so that was I did that for just shy of three years and now I'm back in the senior social worker role doing therapeutic work alongside a team of caseworkers and also providing a bit of training for different teams and then also working in the out-of-home care you know whether it is counseling or increasing parenting confidence doing parenting programs doing some risk mitigation work, preventing placement breakdowns, supporting kids with emotional regulation.

So it's kind of like a mix of everything. So I supervise a small team of social workers as well. So I do direct practice and still the team lead and management. And I'm currently studying a Masters of Counseling with New South Wales, a University of New South Wales. Well, just in your spare time, huh? Yeah. Yeah. Okay, I have so many questions. So some people find it difficult stepping into a completely new organization as a senior without having completed the role of the people that you're supporting, the people that you're supervising. Did you find that challenging at all having to kind of hit the ground running, figure out everything, figure out the systems, figure out people's strengths, be able to support that all in one go

while also still trying to work out where you sat in the program and what your case load was going to look like? Yeah, yeah. No, that was particularly difficult and I guess because it was so new as well. So the Family Preservation Program at that point, it was a pilot program. So it had only been, I think, at the organisation that I was at for about seven months prior to me starting. And so it was a totally new role. So there had been no social workers at the organisation prior to me starting. So it was really trying to figure out whether.

social worker all fits, you know, because the team had put forward the social workers working alongside the caseworkers after doing a lot of research into like, you know, what would best practice be. And so it was, you know, having somebody do therapeutic work outside of the caseworker to really try and get like the best of both worlds happening. So that was a bit tricky in that sense as well. So it was like we had a pilot program where the business rules and program framework weren't finalised and we're giving feedback, trying to figure out my role and then also supporting the team that I had that had only also been there for a short period of time as well. So if they weren't social workers in your team, what were their backgrounds?

So at the time, we had one social worker that was there. And so I had one social worker working. And then the other team who I wasn't supervising at that time, who I then supervised a couple months later were a team of Aboriginal caseworkers. Okay, cool. So more the lived experience rather than a study pathway? Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

How did you find then that supervision experience, being new to social work supervision in the first place, but also then supervising non-social workers? It was a learning curve. like there was a lot that I had to learn. I guess there were lots of things again, like in the pilot program, it was still forever changing. So it was us trying to put together the policies and procedures

and program frameworks internally while it was still kind of, you know, being developed externally from our funding body as well. So it was a bit tricky. But I think, you know, making sure that we had that formal and informal supervision space to be able to support the caseworkers and the team of social workers I had as well was really important. So, you know, me having my social work background and, you know, knowing things about,

you know, transference and counter transference, you know, what that means for somebody, what might be impacting on the relationship, how that might be, I guess, impacting on outcomes, what that looks like. You know, I think for me, because I knew the processes and I kind of knew what to do, it was okay. I mean, I'm sure if you ask the stuff, it might be something different and that's okay as well. But the team that I had at the time, and I guess the whole time that I was there, they were really, really strong and experienced workers. So whilst they may not have had a social work background, they did have values of collaboration, they were all really reflective.

So they all had the skills. I guess they just didn't have the same foundational knowledge that we had. I know working in an NGO ongoing professional development can be a real challenge, not just to find the funding for it, but then to take the time out of the role to do it. How does that work within your NGO and how do you support people that might identify that they have additional learning needs? I guess the way that I had set up my team, because I guess it's a bit different because it was the only family preservation program within the organisation, is that when we had monthly meetings, it was very much done with the purpose. So we would just obviously catch up as a team and then we would do, like I would run a workshop or if somebody in the team was particularly passionate about something.

We had one particular team member who was really, she had an early childhood teaching background and she was really passionate. about the power of play. So she ran a play workshop for us, you know, to really encourage us to be able to role model play for our parents and children. So it was kind of, you know, we had little bits and pieces of monthly, I guess, workshops, like internal workshops, and then just any training needs. So we had shared case management with DCJ. So making sure that they had the safety and risk assessment training and just the basic training that everyone needs to know when working in child protection so like you know responding identifying and responding to child protection concerns the safety and risk assessment training like a ministry of reporting training

like working with other services we did a training that was about safety planning as well so it is the win and gay so winning gay is an Aboriginal assessment tool It is used for carer assessments, but we did it particularly with their case planning and safety planning element. So it is kind of like a scaling tool. So it's a use of visuals, a bunch of cards, and then it is a scaling thing. So all the way from like scale of real concern to like a real strength or deadly. And then everything in between.

So it's like just okay is in the middle. So it's kind of like a thumb reading system. And it's a really good family-led decision-making tool. like if you're getting to know a family, you need to do an assessment. It's kind of like you're giving them the cards and giving them the power to be able to rate where they think they are in terms of the level of risk. So, you know, we might have a referral where there's some complex mental health. There might be drug and alcohol issues.

It might be domestic violence. Lack of boundaries for children. Like maybe the parents aren't connected to children. So the parents are given these cards. So you only take out a small amount every time you go and you get them to rate and scale from where they're sitting. Where do you think this is that? And parents are pretty honest around their scaling. So sometimes we've had, you know, maybe we've seen something as like, just some concern

or a little concern and they're like, no, that's a real concern. Like I'm really worried about this. And I guess in with that tool as well, like this is where you've scored this, where do you think child protection might score you? Look, where do you think DCJ might score it? And if it is like as a real concern and not, towards the strengths and you're kind of like okay so over the next three months what can we do together to go from like a real concern to some concern to that realistic and achievable goals for families

so they did some training around that as well which was quite helpful and i know some of the caseworkers still use that in their practice to this day that's so interesting because that would have built in an element of helping them to understand the screening process that DCJ or even some of the other organizations like health and education, the mandatory reporters, have to go through in order to be able to demonstrate that something is high risk. So you're just providing the education that they need to be able to reflect on themselves in their situation and make it less of a, I don't know, this mystical assessment process that they don't understand. Yeah. And it's, you know, it's using their language, like they have ownership over it as well. I did this particular

training back when I was in brighter futures and I used it with families from all different socio-economic backgrounds and different cultures as well and you know I think like the feedback that I have been given about that particular tool is that parents feel less anxious when they use it they know exactly what you're going to ask them because they can see it you know they have the cards in front of them and they're choosing so it's you know that trauma-informed practice around like they can choose but then there are also cards around like not now or I don't know. So if they don't want to answer it right now,

they can just like, I'm going to put this over here for not now. So it's kind of letting the parents know, it's like, okay, we don't have to talk about this right now, but we do have to talk about it eventually, but when you're ready to. So it's, yeah, it's a really good tool,

and I highly recommend the training. Yeah, cool. I think also the fact that your team members could provide training on things that they'd experienced or they'd done training on previously. sometimes can be more valuable than having a formal training provider come and talk to the team because they can learn from their peers, they can go off and practice something and then they can come back with questions, whereas in a formal training environment, you don't have that luxury often.

Yeah. That's amazing. Then, okay, you stepped up into more of a management role, which I assume took you away from a caseload from frontline work. Was that challenging in itself? Yes, I think with any, when you're just, I think with any, when you're just, transition from having your own caseload into management, the difficult thing is, is that you have to make the shift that your caseload becomes effectively is the people that you supervise. So you've got to give

them the skills, like teach them the skills without taking over. You have oversight over the cases, but they're not your families or your cases anymore. So I think that for any manager is a very difficult transition. I would say that a lot of managers would have made a mistake before of just doing it for the caseworkers or social workers that they're supervising, you know, which then obviously creates a dependence on you, but then also like doubles your workload as well and you can not really do anything. So that was a bit tricky. Like I had to kind of keep reminding myself a lot, like this isn't your case, as frustrating as it might be, but it's is just taking a bit slower like that's not your job to do so yeah i think that's something i've

struggled with as well stepping into even just acting leadership and being able to reflect on i really enjoy leadership i don't like management and being able to pass out what that's about but also the realization and acknowledgement that there are multiple ways of doing the same thing and just because it's not the way you would do it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it. but it's just that person either needs to or would like to do things a certain way. And you hope that the outcomes would be just as good, if not potentially better having someone else assist or even just provide a different perspective on things, right?

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And a different perspective is always important because there isn't one way or the other. There are multiple ways to do things as long as, you know, you're trying to get the same outcomes. That's what's most important. Okay, cool. So then you stepped back from the management into the team leader supervision space again. You had, was it the same caseload that you got back or was it different by that point? How long are you normally looking after these families?

Well, I didn't particularly have a caseload like when I first started because it was so quick for me to be going from senior social worker to, I guess, the management role. So I guess for me in that management role, like it was a mix of team leader management and clinical. direction like all in the one but by the time because it was it was just shy of three years we had all new families in family preservation and i never actually had started working in the out-home care side when i had transitioned into the management role so it's a whole new level of clients which is you know which is quite nice it's like a total fresh start yeah and i imagine there are some more social workers in the team by this point. We do not have any social workers at the moment because we are currently trying to move

offices and we just have no desk space at the moment. So ideally we would have three social workers that would sit underneath me. But at this point, I guess because the social worker role was going back into the clinical space and therapeutic space instead of sitting under me in the management role, we then had to create all new policies as well for the social worker back in that space. So recruitment was on hold. We had one social worker who has, you know, who resigned at the beginning of the year. And so now we don't have a new desk space at the minute. So hopefully once we move, we'll be able to get onto recruiting. So it is a bit difficult that I am only one person at the minute and there

are referrals coming in and, you know, having like it's a good thing that referrals are coming in for a social worker and not so great that, you know, we have a wait list at present. Yeah, because how sustainable is that? Do you have a time frame for moving and then you've got to wait for people to be ready for recruitment? Yeah, yeah. And it's a particularly hard role to recruit for as well because it's not case management. How I would describe it would have been all of the fun work that I did at Brighty futures,

all that fun therapy work without any of the case coordination. So it's, you know, there is some option to do counselling, but it's more like the psychoed increasing parenting skills, like risk mitigation, like in that therapeutic way. So like really, it is a bit different. So it's not case management, a bit of a niche kind of crowd, which the recruitment pool is very small. Yeah, yeah. I can imagine it's a very small skill set that would be ideal in that role.

Oh, man. So what support do you require? How does that sit with you at the moment knowing that you're having to turn people away, but also is that sustainable? How do you get through this period knowing that you'll come out the other end, still enjoying the work? I guess it's like anywhere, right? Like you have a set letter, like, you know, you've got a set caseload and you go through

that caseload and even when you're at brighter futures, like you're at capacity in terms of like your contracting level and you can't accept, like you actually can't accept more families into the program either. So I think, like it's not necessarily. different to like if you know like even when I was managing the family preservation program like we're at capacity like we couldn't take on any more families because we were at capacity that was our contracting amount so I try and look at it in that way but I think you know the passionate helpful side of me is like oh my god I just want to help everyone but you know it's it's where those

boundaries come in around I don't want to take on more because then you know everyone will only get like 50% instead of 100%. So, you know, the clients that I get referred, I would like them to have the icing on the cake, not just the cake. So, you know, I just kind of keep having to remind myself that, like, you know, if I'm overstretched and I'm overwhelmed, I'm not going to do a good job and we're not going to have positive outcomes. So it's just a constant battle of wishing I could help,

but then not being able to help. Yeah, but even just that capacity to push back sounds as though it comes from a commitment higher up in the organisation to say no, which, you know, if you don't have that backing, if you don't have that support, you might feel as though you have no choice. So I'm reading between the lines and suggesting that your leadership, your supports are really strong in saying actually no, we're not going to accept. don't say yes to everything. We're going to dedicate the best of our energy and time to the people that we do have in front of us. Yeah. And I think it's something that we,

in a clinic support space, is something that we constantly battle with because you want to help and you want to say yes and you want these kids or whoever's being referred to have, you know, the support that, I mean, we don't have a magic wand. And I think it's, yeah, like we do have really strong leadership where my manager is able to, I guess, negotiate.

Like if something is really urgent and we do need to take it on, it's like, okay, well, what is that going to look like? You know, because, again, we don't want people to, we don't want anyone to miss out, but then we also don't want the people that we already have to miss out either because something might be more pressing. You know, so it's just making sure that we're going through the motions. And, you know, we're flexible around like,

it's not like if they don't answer a call twice, then we close. Like we try and be flexible around engagement because we know that like meeting somebody new is scary. So like we take the time. But then obviously like if people don't want the support and they're not turning up for appointments or they're not replying, then we will need to close because there are people that will want support as well. Yeah. Are there managers or people hire up in your organisation who are social workers who can provide you with supervision? No. So you have to get your own external? Yeah. So I have two wonderful external supervisors and for those who are questioning whether

they should get external supervision, the answer should always be yes. It is a space that is purely dedicated to you and your professional development and it is tax deductible as well and it really truly is an investment in yourself. Like I would not have gotten to the point where I am in my career without any of the clinical supervisors that I have had as well as, you know, the managers that I have had and the support that I have been given. But I think that it is, you know, for my emotional sense of self as well, it's really good to have just that support because they're invested in you

It's your, like you literally have them for an hour, a month, if you do it monthly. And it is, yeah, it's just your space because, you know, this work is so much into pouring into everybody else's cup, you know, when do you actually have time for you? Like I always prioritize external supervision because I need it. And do your two supervisors have different, experience, different sort of approaches? Yeah, yeah. So they both are amazing in their own rights. They've both had a lot of management experience.

So both very experience in the sector, in both child protection and management in that sense. One is a practice manager. So like a practice sleep, so she is really, really helpful in the practice learning and development side of things that I do. And then also with particular cases, if I'm finding something like really, really hard, like, you know, get a lot of structure

and emotional support as well, but really, I would say that that practical support and that theory and education from that person, but then there's also like a lot of theory and education and emotional support and also structure from the other one as well. So it's like the perfect mix. Yeah, they're great. Yeah, really does sound like it. What changes do you think you've seen? in this field over time or what would you like to see a bit of both so the changes that I have seen

in the field is definitely I guess since I started child protection case management in 2016 the sector is less risk averse so I guess they're a little bit more comfortable sitting with risk so I think sometimes a little bit too comfortable but there are a lot of families out there where historically their children would have been removed and they are currently thriving at home with their parents in really safe, supportive and nurturing environment. And I guess historically, yeah, those children would never have had that opportunity and I think that that is really, really wonderful. I think we're seeing a lot more strength-based practice and a lot more dignity-driven practice

from the Department of Communities and Justice. Like I think historically they would have, may not have been in that space. And I think that there is a shift that is moving, which is really, really good. I think in the sector, we still have a long way to go, particularly for Aboriginal children and their over-representation in out-of-home care placements. I think we have a long way to go in supporting Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander families. families and children.

Yeah. And are there some sort of real tangible steps? Are there plans? Not necessarily things that you're part of, but things that are happening that you feel as though are putting us in the right direction? Yeah, I think that listing Aboriginal community controlled organisations is, you know, I'm not sure if they are being hurting the sector, but Aboriginal children going to Aboriginal community controlled organisations and having that cultural oversight is important to making sure that children

are connected to their culture, but I still think there's a long way to go. Like, communities really need to be heard and to be listened to and consulted and not just a tokenistic consultation, like really listening from their perspective and understanding. Like, I think one of the simplest ways that I can explain of what, you know, is where the inherent racism can come from and that I have seen. and I'm also speaking, I'm just mindful that I am speaking as a non-Aboriginal social worker and recognise the power and privilege that I have. I've been very lucky to work alongside very strong and culturally strong Aboriginal practitioners

and I have learnt a lot from them and I've had a wonderful experience working alongside the community. But one of the simple things that I see within the Department of Communities and Justice is where parents might be taking their kids to family or they might be staying with family and like moving around in that way they would never question it if it was an Italian family but they start questioning things if it is an Aboriginal family or if it's like a Greek family or a Macedonian family where those cultural lack it is all about the community you know it's all about kinship looking after children and using those extended networks you know for Aboriginal parents sometimes it is looked at as a bad thing even though we should be looking at as a good thing because they're relying on their support

network. It's just, you know, again, with all families is how do we make sure that when we are relying on that kin network, how do we make it consistent for the kids? Is it that, you know, it doesn't matter where I am on a Wednesday, I know that I'm going to have spaghetti gourdinoles for dinner. Or on a Saturday, I have chicken nuggets for lunch, like just something that is in there or like, doesn't matter who I'm with, I still go to dancing on a Thursday. So it's just so small, tangible things that people can do to create consistency within some chaos. Yeah, that's just one of the small things that I kind of notice. Yeah.

And I do know that organisations, businesses are getting better with things like reconciliation action plans and even just consultation and education. And there are some great pieces of work being done around agencies. support and training. Even the business that I work for only just recently, I'm part of a First Nations working group and we only just recently developed a rap and we only just recently rolled out the cultural awareness training, First Nations training, asking the question even, including even just in application forms or plans, just a ticker box, just let us know, have a conversation does that impact, and it doesn't need to be First Nations, could be any cultural, as you're saying, how does your individual identity and support structure affect what you need from us?

And I think that's really important. So I am seeing more of that. But then again, I reflect on films like I saw something recently. It was called After the Apology. So it came out about five or six years ago now, but it was, the premise was, for Indigenous Grandmothers Beginner National Movement to tackle the removal of children and the rising number of Indigenous children and out of home care by involving their extended family. It's nothing new, and that was the whole point. Like, it's not new. We've done this forever.

But the department's plural are not really using the ways that we've been working for generations to best support these families. So here is what we can tell you works. please implement this into policy and practice. So the numbers haven't gotten better. That was the problem. That was what after the apology was telling us, that there was an acknowledgement, and then there was nothing in terms of the numbers,

which was a real shame. But hopefully, as you said, you know, we've got awareness. We just need to put things in place and to collaborate. That consultation piece is so important. Yeah. And, you know, like, don't get me wrong,

there are some amazing workers within the Department of Communities Injustice and I think that they have an incredibly tough job doing what they're doing and I don't ever want to be negative about their practice but I think we still as a sector-wide, social work, discipline-wide, have a long way to go in supporting,

like I think we've come a long way, like, you know, social workers are very aware of the injustice that they have done with Aboriginal communities and Torres Shatlander communities across Australia with the stolen generation and the harm that was caused and, you know, making sure that we acknowledge all of that as well and try and repair those relationships so that we can rebuild the trust within the system but as, yeah, we still have a long way to go. And apart from all the gaps that you can see and the injustices, what do you find most

challenging about being a social worker in this sector? I think the fact that people often misunderstand what social work do. I think that whenever people think of social work, they think of case management and case coordination. And really, a lot of people don't understand that social work is all about that systemic thinking. So you've got this individual that's in society. So what around them is impacting on them and how can we make the systems work better so that this person has a fairer chance of life but it's more than just case management it's that rapport building and relationship you know relationship-based practice is at the heart of what we do and what we get taught and how

healing those relationships can be for people and I guess the challenge of yeah that social workers to just aren't case managers. We do lots of other wonderful things like we can do counselling. We can do like parenting. You know, I know that a lot of like the whole concept of co-design has originated, I think, in social work, but is now being used in a lot of business talk and business speak and, you know, the involving participants in studies, you know, when designing stuff. So like in-town planning, so like consulting with people. You know, I think originated out of social work values and practices. And so it can be seen social workers can do a lot more than just case management.

Yeah. What do you enjoy most about your work? I love seeing people grow. That's my favorite thing to say that's where I get the most enjoyment. So even, you know, like within leadership or it's within like, working with my clients as well. Like, just, like it's, it's almost like I, you're giving people options that they didn't know that they had and just supporting them.

And I feel so privileged to be a part of people allow me to be part of their journey. Like, I really enjoy watching people grow along their journeys. Yeah. It is such a privilege to be invited into, sometimes it's invited. Sometimes you earn that trust of being engaged. and engaging, but yeah, I agree that's incredibly rewarding. It is a big burden though. It is a big responsibility. But, you know, again, that's something we deal with really well is that we acknowledge that, we reflect it, we don't take it for granted, and we do the best we can

with what we've got there. Yeah, definitely. Given that you've done this type of work, your entire career, including your placements, are there any other areas of social work that have interested at you that you think you might potentially move into one day? Family therapy does interest me. It's family systemic therapy. It is something that is very confusing to learn. And we've touched on family therapy in the Masters of Counseling. We had a term of learning it and then a little bit in another term.

And it's something that really interests me. But I find very confusing. Like I think I will go later in my life in that direction. once I wrap my head around things. But I think I do want to go down more counselling, kind of focus work. But I also really love the practice learning and development element of my role as well. So, yeah, I think I'll forever do a bit of both, some practice learning and development and kind of therapeutic or counselling work.

Yeah, I think you personally would always benefit from having a team of people around your and or a team of people that you support as opposed to heading out on your own and engaging in private practice where you're quite isolated or working in silo. I feel like you thrive on that team environment. Yeah, I am an extravert. I get energy from other people. Yeah. Are there any other programs or projects that are coming up that you wanted to talk to? I think we can touch back on that can network. and being like a kin first, you know, making sure that we are relying on kin and that safety support network. A very important person in this sector internationally is the work that Kevin Campbell has done

around family finding and family seeing and family connection and the importance of that family network and, you know, how important kin and family is for children. And, you know, I know that he's doing a lot of exciting work, particularly in New South Wales at the moment with some organisations. And, you know, like it's really great and powerful work that needs to continue happening. How we rely on kin and family support with all of our families to keep families together and safer because there is always someone. They will always be someone. Yeah. Is there any media that you can perhaps identify where these sorts of concepts are really misrepresented and also perhaps where it's represented really well? So I'm thinking there's something I've been

watching recently called Total Control. It's got Deb Malman and Rachel Griffith and they touch on quite a lot to do with First Nations. There's health inequity and health access stuff. There's kids in custody. And it's super accurate, super representative, really good portrayal of why things began the way they did, why they escalated, what the systems and structures are that have led to the issues and then how they responded to within media, within policy, within even, yeah, all forms of government. So I feel like that's probably an example of something where the representation is really positive in terms of accurate. But I also know, again, with my work, we have a film club,

which is a First Nation-specific film club where we watch stuff. And sometimes it's super old, like Jeddah old, and sometimes it's really modern. And then we kind of deconstruct and analyze and talk about in context of how does this relate to stuff that's going on now in the current issues to deal with First Nations people. The Netflix special where that lady who was forcibly removed, she talks about finding her two families, the last daughter. Oh, yes. Okay. I have saying that. Yeah. So I think that that represents a very push-pull within the system.

And I think it's a really good, I don't know if it's a movie or if it's a series, but it's, you know, a first-name. It's a dog go. And it does even just highlight that the policies that restricted someone's access to support. So people were still being removed from their families even after the removal policies were abolished. Yeah. So she couldn't access the support that was available to First Nations children who were removed because technically she wasn't removed under the old policy. She's just completely bizarre. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's an accurate representation of of where policies have a flow on effect long after they are changed. And I think it's something for policymakers to keep in mind when they are creating policies.

It's like, yes, this is the intended outcome of what we're hoping this policy will bring. But what could be the unintended consequences or unintended positive outcomes as well of this policy. and if it were to be changed, what residual effects would be left for these people? And what are the effects, not just for the person being removed, but from the family they're removed from and the family that they're placed with? Yeah. Because that shows a very interesting perspective of loss and grief for everyone involved. Yeah, and I think as well, like, you know, just the misinformation that is given to some foster carers as well,

which can negatively impact their outlook on, you know, this child's family of origin, you know, and how much information is too much to give them about these child's experience because you don't want to give these carers who are looking after these children a negative view of the parents because at the end of the day, the parents that enter child protection systems are doing the absolute best that they can with what they have and you know it's just that life is too difficult for them to be parents in that moment and they should never be looked at in a negative way because we don't know what their life was like no one knows and we only get a small snippet of what they they tell us and how we can support

and sometimes it is just life is too overwhelming for them to be parents as hard as they try, it's just too overwhelming. And unfortunately, there are a lot of foster carers out there that have really negative views of these children's family of origin and it can really impact the stability of their placement and can impact their outcome because that child belongs to their family of origin no matter what, you can't change that. So, you know, being really careful around how we train foster carers when they become foster carers so that they can be supportive of this child and their identity growing up.

And if they choose to do so to have more connection with their family of origin as they get older and figure out who they are. Yeah, that's such an important point. Is there anything else before we finish up, Cass, that you wanted to mention about your experience? No, I just say for anyone who is thinking about doing social work, it is one of the best things you'll ever do. I love it. I can't ever see myself ever not being a social worker. Yeah. And always learning, obviously. Always learning. Life is a journey and a continuous learning one at that. And you clearly have been so passionate for supporting people, which has led to you

becoming a social worker in the first place via criminology and forensics, but you had some really great mentors early on who could help shape the social worker that you wanted to be and help you to develop an understanding of these new programs. You were kind of shoved straight in the deep end from day one and had to develop policies on the fly. But very soon after that, you stepped into leadership, which made you challenge your own ways of working and your own ways of thinking and even then not having a caseload. So being out of uni, not having a caseload can be its own challenging thing because you're like, where are my people who are my supporting?

It's all a little bit abstract sometimes. But you've maintained a really clear concept of boundaries, which is so incredibly important and maintaining a really healthy work practice and having two supervisors who can provide guidance and support and having a team of people around you who are helping. helping to, again, shape the direction of your career as well as shaping the direction of the program. So, yeah, I think everything you've said is, again, a really clear demonstration of the scope of social work. Like you were saying, we can do so much more than case management or clinical

practice. It's about that relationship building and the healing and using that as the foundation to then go off and do things even if the title of the role is not social work. So I really love how you've highlighted that. And yeah, just so incredibly grateful for the time that you've taken to do this. Maintaining boundaries is probably the most important thing you can ever have in your social work career. And, you know, at times we have strong ones and at other times we don't have strong ones. But trying to maintain boundaries is forever are working towards,

but it is so important. So important. Again, thank you, Cass, so much for doing this. And I'll put links to some of those things we've discussed, including the women and gay cards. I think that's a really cool training opportunity for people to check out if they're working with this population and some of the movies and Kevin Campbell's work.

So, yeah, I'll put that in the show notes. If there's anything else you wanted to direct people towards, just let me know. And, yeah, otherwise, again, thank you. Appreciate your time. Thank you so much. I'll speak too soon. Thanks for joining me this week.

If you'd like to continue this discussion or ask anything of either myself or Cass, please visit my anchor page at anchor.fm.fm slash social work spotlight. You can find me on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter, or you can email SW Spotlight Podcast at gmail.com. I'd love to hear from you. Please also let me know if there is a particular topic you'd like discussed, or if you or another person you know

would like to be featured on the show. Next episode's guest is Jamie, who has over 18 years of experience working within the mental health space. Jamie has worked in the UK and Sydney, is an accredited mental health social worker and enjoys supporting elderly populations, more recently moving into the private practice space.

I release a new episode every two weeks. Please subscribe to my podcast so you'll notify when this next episode is available. See you next time. Thank you.