Social Work Spotlight - Episode 112: Gaul

Episode Date: June 21, 2024

In this episode I speak with Gaul, an Accredited Mental Health Social Worker who has worked in tertiary level mental health services for 15 years. Gaul currently works in private practice at Psychology Training and Supervision where he specialises in couples and family therapy as well as providing clinical supervision to mental health clinicians. Links to resources mentioned in this week’s episode:Psychology Training and Supervision - https://psychologytrainingandsupervision.com.au/Interview with Pam Cohen and Marier Heydon discussing supervision on ‘Just Another Do Gooder - https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/just-another-do-gooder/id1360595377Discussion with Brené Brown and Esther Perel on Partnerships, Patterns, and Paradoxical Relationships - https://brenebrown.com/podcast/partnerships-patterns-and-paradoxical-relationships/Discussion with Brené Brown and Esther Perel on Artificial Intimacy - https://brenebrown.com/podcast/new-ai-artificial-intimacy/South Western Sydney Infant, Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services (ICAMHS) - https://www.swslhd.health.nsw.gov.au/MentalHealth/ICAMental.htmlHETI’s The Superguide - https://www.heti.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/424859/HETI_Superguide_Txt_WARAHETI_OCT_19.pdfDr Sue Johnson and EFT work - https://drsuejohnson.com/Martha Kauppi’s Institute for Relational Intimacy - https://www.instituteforrelationalintimacy.com/Esther Perel - https://www.estherperel.com/Brené Brown - https://brenebrown.com/Chris Voss - https://www.blackswanltd.com/chris-vossThis episode's transcript can be viewed here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FFvNPK2zMi7-i9xXTnoHc2wily3oSp2itbNBnKMbHlU/edit?usp=sharingThanks to Kevin Macleod of incompetech.com for our theme music.

I begin today by acknowledging the Gadigal people of the Eura Nation, traditional custodians of the land on which I record this podcast, and pay my respects to their elders past and present. I extend that respect to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people listening today. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples have an intrinsic connection to this land and have cared for country for over 60,000 years, with their way of life having been devastated by colonisation. Hi and welcome to Social Work Spotlight where I showcase different areas of the profession in each episode.

I'm your host, Jasmine Lupus, and today's guest is Gawl, an accredited mental health social worker who has worked in tertiary-level mental health services for 15 years, where he has had the privilege of working with clients across the lifespan. He currently works in private practice at psychology training and supervision, where he specialises in couples and family therapy, as well as providing clinical supervision to mental health clinicians. His approach combined systemic family therapy and emotionally focused therapy. In his spare time, he tries to make more time for other things he loves, such as reading, hiking and photography. Welcome, Gould. Thank you so much for coming onto the podcast today

and looking forward to having a chat with you about your experience in social work. Thank you for having me. I'd love to know firstly when you got started as a social worker and what brought you to the profession? So I started social work in, gosh, would have been 2004, I think, graduated in 2007. So I've been around for a little while. It's interesting because I didn't think that I'd get into social work. You know, when I was in high school, my favourite subjects were actually economics and business

studies. So I thought I was going to go in that direction. And there were the subjects, curiously enough, that I did the best in. But I think I'd always had this curiosity about people and about that. how people live, you know, and really how they navigate this thing that we call life. And I knew a little bit about social work. I didn't know quite what it was, I think, but there was this sort of understanding that social work had something to do with people and, you know, helping people.

And I think for me, growing up, I had this sort of more natural tendency to, you know, be in a position where I was able to help people, you know, and there's a whole sort of backstory to that, I suppose, as well. But that sort of led me then to looking at courses like social work. work when you know we were considering the university entrance but I think I didn't really understand what social work really was until I had my first placement in the third year because then I think I saw social work in action and I think I learned much better that way and so even though I've had some understanding

what it was prior to going to uni and then naturally when you learn about sociology and the human environment that sort of stuff I had some idea of what it was but I didn't know exactly how it applied in real life. And then once I had that first placement, that's when I thought, okay, this is by social it is, or at least this is what it can be. And I think in a way, I just fell in love with it. And I guess I'm still in love with it because I'm still in the field all these years later. Yeah.

And what was your first placement? What kind of built that love for you? So I was in an acute mental health unit for adults. And I'd actually chosen or I put as a preference to go into a mental health unit, Because for a long time, I've had a strong curiosity about mental illness and about how the mind can buckle under pressure and sort of go all sorts of places that you don't really want it to go. And so, you know, I put that down as a preference. And I was luckily chosen for a placement in a mental health unit. And I think when I was there, I saw a side of society that I'd never come into contact with before.

You know, I'd read about lots of disadvantage. I'd read about, you know, the downward social and economic drift that comes with having a severe and persistent mental illness. But it wasn't until the placement that I actually saw firsthand what that was like. And also the, I think both the extent of suffering, but also the extent of growth and recovery as well that was possible when you had the appropriate supports and resources to get through what can otherwise seem to be an impossible process. And did you have a really good mentor, people that you could kind of fall back on if you had

any questions or concerns? Absolutely. And this might be a theme throughout, you know, the rest of the interview, because I think throughout my life and throughout my professional career, at least anyway, I've been very fortunate and that I've had very good supervisors and mentors and colleagues. And I mean, my first placement, my mentor, Carolyn, I don't actually is to live. in the field at the moment. But she was just so, you know, so down to earth and so very realistic about what we were able to do. You know, there was always this discrepancy between what I was taught at university and what I imagined in my mind that a social worker can and should do.

And then coming to terms with what it is that we were facing in terms of limitations and obstacles and resourcing once I got me to the field. And I saw it first and she was very good at, I think, helping me to recognize that discrepancy and sit in that space because, you know, when I've come into the field, I thought, what? You know, there are so many things that I've been told that I should be able to do. And yet I'm not able to do it, you know, and so I struggled with that for a little bit, but, you know, through a lot of patience and kindness, I think in time, she helped me, I think, get used to that reality and that difference. And I think to understand that even if you're not able to do what you think the ideal situation is, you know, you're

is you asked you were able to do a lot with the limitations that you have. So that was really, I think, the sort of cornerstone for my learning about social work in the field. Yeah. And did that then shape what you wanted to do as a second placement? Did you get much of an opportunity to choose for that one? Yeah, I was actually curious about community mental health for the second placement, which I didn't get. I was placed at the Benevolent Society and the Centre for Children was what it was called back then. And so again, with that placement, I had a very wonderful supervisor. Weiss, it was this sort of older lady from the Netherlands.

But again, you know, very, very kind and patient and teach me about how the community sector integrated with health and government. And I think really championing the rights of the child. And it wasn't something that I really know much about prior to that placement. I mean, that was more of a research-based placement. And so there wasn't that much clinical work, but at the time, I think, they'd started doing a pilot project on involving men or fathers more in the care of their children. And so we were tasked, I think, at that time, with going out and interviewing fathers about their

role, you know, in family life, the service navigation, and then writing up a report, which was eventually presented to, I think, middle management within the organisation. So it was a very different sort of experience for me. And even though I thoroughly enjoyed it, my heart still sat with mental health. Yeah. And was it interesting there for you in terms of positionality, being male, interviewing other men, as opposed to someone who might have been a female student? I think so.

Because, you know, when I did that placements, the other student that was with me, she was a social worker as well. And so we did that together. And it was very interesting because I remember going out of these houses and sort of looking at at these men thinking, is this my future? Is this what it's going to look like for me when I get older and potentially have children? You know, what sort of father do I want to be?

How involved do I want to be with my children? And all of that, of course, plays into your own personal experiences of your own family of origin, you know, my relationship with my father growing up and I suppose his absence and what that was like for me. And so it got me thinking a lot about who I wanted to be and who I didn't want to be. And I think the importance of trying to navigate that space in a very mindful way. So it certainly was very eye-opening for me, I think. Especially at such a young age, that's a lot to kind of be faced with all at once.

Oh, it really young, yeah, absolutely. I think back to it now, and I'm shocked with the sort of report that we were able to to produce because I sort of looked back at it and I think, how on earth did I come up with these ideas? You know, I probably shouldn't have been as mature as I was, but somehow it wasn't. worked out. Yeah. So what happened after you left uni?

What was your first role? So as I was finishing that placement, they offered me a casework assistant role, which I kept towards the end of my university studies and also for the first few months after I graduated. And it was during that time there after I graduated that, I met another social worker there who had known that was interested in mental health. And finally enough, he found a job advertisement for me. me one day for an inpatient mental health social work role at Liverpool Hospital. And, you know, I applied and luckily I got the job.

And I was there for about, I think, five and a half or six years before sort of then leaving and then going into another mental health unit where I stayed for the next 11 years, I think, before finally resigning and going into private practice full time. And what was the experience like going into an inpatient mental health unit, having had that experience as a student and then a completely different sense of responsibility? I'm guessing as an actual professional social worker? I'm much more stressful because, you know, now I couldn't say, oh, look, I can't do it because I'm a student.

There's no more excuse, you know. You sort of just had to be accountable for what you did, you know. And for me, I think going into it, again, I mean, I was very fortunate because when I started, I was very lucky to have a wonderful supervisor who I saw, I think, once a month. But I didn't really know what my role was when I started. you know there's a lot of raw confusion I think and I mean I tend to walk them functioning so I think in a way I ended up doing a lot more than I should of and a lot more than what would have been I think helpful for clients because in a way

in my mind it was like you do what you need to do in order to help them right but I had no mirror I think to sort of reflect and think about whether it was that I was actually helping or maintaining problems and that ultimately led to an experience of Burnham, probably a year and a half into the job, which was, I just remember it being quite horrendous, you know, feeling quite powerless and almost sort of incompetent, you know, at the time, thinking, well, you know, there are so many issues here that I should be able to deal with and solve and yet I'm not able to. And so that was, that was a significant wake-up call, I think for me at that point. But again, you know, sort of meeting other people and colleagues

who were very kind enough to give me their time and opinions and reflections, it sort of helped temper, I think, my expectations of myself and be a bit more kind towards myself about what it was that I was capable of delivering, but also what I should, I think, in a way, deliver as well. Yeah, and you stuck it out for another four years. How did you kind of get beyond that point to where you felt a bit more comfortable in the world? Well, I think I found areas of interest, you know. I think for me it was like, okay, it's been very, very difficult, but I'm still very much

at the start of my career. So is there anything else that I can learn while I'm here? And so that decision was pretty much based on that question. And I knew that there was still so much more that I needed to learn. So that decision was made effectively to stay. And so the question became, how is it that I can get the right support that I'm able to keep at it, you know, in a way that's going to be helpful for me, but also helpful for, you know, the clients that I'm working with. And so then when, you know, I think I discovered

much more the benefits of networking, of looking at variations in my role above the sort of case management aspect of it, which I think occupied probably 80% of the role. And so when I was able to find variation in my responsibilities and my tasks, it sort of helped to make the job a little be more bearable. Of course, along the way, I still was learning a lot from people. And so that kept me going as well. Yeah. In the hospital setting, did you have group supervision as well as individual supervision? No, no. I think supervision was one of those things that was very hard to come by. I think, you know, the service was very proactive in finding me a supervisor because I think their experience of previous social workers was that and they didn't provide support,

that the social workers would inevitably resign. And that was quite interesting because, you know, I think in a way it was unfortunate that many social workers before me had to experience such, you know, traumatic experiences in order for there to be a more proactive response from health. I did a lot of networking with, you know, the other social workers that were there. And again, you know, just having lots of very, very skilled and kind social workers who were willing to provide the emotional but also the clinical support. to hold me in that space when things were really, really difficult.

So there wasn't so much formal group supervision, but there was more sort of peer supervision and mentoring, which occurred alongside the more formal individual supervision that I was receiving. That helped, I think, to hold me there. Yeah, I'm always surprised by the lack of consistency around supervision and how that's provided to social workers in health settings. Yes. When I worked at St. Vincent's, there was mandatory individual and group supervision,

and that's just how it was and I didn't know any different. And I just happened to, I was reflecting on this with one of my colleagues the other day because we're trying to come up with a model of group supervision and put forward a business case where I'm working now. But when I had group supervision at the hospital, the facilitator of my group supervision team was Pan Cohen, who's an OAM now. She's just a wonderful person. And she's kind of a guru of group supervision in Australia.

and her and Mari Hayden. Actually, I might send you an article. There's a podcast that was hosted by Vitorio Chintio, who used to be head of ASW. He used to have a podcast and he interviewed Pam and Mari around Sublusion specifically. I'll probably even link it in the show notes because I just think it's wonderful to listen to them both talk about the importance in their research and their training of people in providing supervision. And I know that you also provide supervision to professionals now so I think it'll be particularly interesting but yeah it's just a real shame that there's that inconsistency and differences in the amount of support that people have access to and in a big way it affects someone's longevity in the profession which is a real shame yeah absolutely and

what's hard is I think you know when you're just starting off if you don't have that set up or at least you don't know that that's what you can expect from the service you don't really know that it's it's an issue, you know? Like I think in a way, like for me, I was provided to supervise, I guess, but I think outside of that there wasn't much other support. And so I just sort of assume that this is just how it is. You know, you kind of just have to wing it and find a way of surviving yourself. But then when I spoke to colleagues in other settings, it was kind of like, no, we get this type of supervision or that type of supervision, this sort of support, you know, and you're sort of left wandering again, like you said, why there is that sort of

inconsistency across settings which is such a shame it really is how did you know it was time to walk one look i think after yeah after about four years or so i just my body was telling me a lot you know it sort of getting into work it's feel quite anxious or i feel quite anxious about it you know and it wouldn't be over anything that i thought i'd done wrong or that i couldn't do but there was more just the anticipation that maybe something would happen that i couldn't handle you know and i think by that time I'd learned to pay a lot more attention to my body. And so my body was telling me very clearly that it didn't want to be there. It just happens to be the case that my mind took a lot longer to catch up as it does.

But then eventually, yeah, I sort of then thought, well, I probably need to find another place to go to. And I think by that time, because after I've been working with individuals for a long time, because it wasn't an mental health unit or adults, and most of the work was with the individuals, I've been doing some work around supporting families. And so when you start meeting families and children, you sort of become curious about, you know, how social work can be effective in other aspects

of a person's life. And at that time, I was involved in what was then called, I think, the Gaming Ground project. And again, having a very wonderful mentor and support person at the time who was kind enough with her time and the knowledge and their patients and teaching me about importance of children and family. you know, in social work interventions.

And so through that, I think I'd sort of developed a very strong interest in how to work with families. And so I was looking for a role that would enable me to do that, but with something that still involved mental health. And finally enough, there was a role that came up not long after in an inpatient mental health unit for adolescents. That was much closer time for me. And so I took it weirdly as a sign.

But finally, you know, with that sort of process, actually the day, before I thought, oh no, because it's a senior role and you know, I sort of hadn't had the years of experience, I think, that I thought I needed or thought was required in order to apply for all of that. So I actually was thinking, I'm not going to go for the interview. I changed my mind on that morning and I went and there was no preparation at all. But that was probably the best thing because in a way I was able to respond much more naturally to what I was being asked. Yeah. And then I was again, very lucky to have been given the position. And you stayed in that for quite a while.

For about a decade, yeah, just over a decade. I mean, that mental health unit, I mean, I still have contact with colleagues in their unit, I still provides provision to a social worker who's still in that unit at the moment. It was previously my student, actually, but that unit was wonderful because it was resourced much, much better, you know, and I think it was there that I learned how a multidisciplinary team truly works together. You know, initially I think as with any sort of change in the system when you've got somebody new entering, the system has to adjust in a way to accommodate. And I had to adjust as well myself to what it was that I was expecting it to be or what I thought

they were expecting of me. And so initially there was some teething issues and that was I think mostly around, you know, role definition. And there was some sort of issues there that sort of preceded me around this tension between certain allied health disciplines. And so I sort of walked, you know, walked into that and for a couple of years, I think we spent navigating those differences and then eventually coming to a very happy medium. And then it just became a very lovely learning environment for me. I had the privilege of working with some tremendously skilled clinicians. So again, we're very kind with their time and their knowledge and it was there really

that I learned how to work with families and couples and how to work with relationships in general and where I think I abstained this passion for working relationally. It sounds as though it was a really good learning opportunity for students though, right? Did you find it was easier to support a student in that environment versus the inpatient mental health role? Absolutely, absolutely. I think people were just more welcoming and I think understanding and appreciative of the role of social work. And so, I mean, I had a wonderful director. at the time. He was the head psychiatrist, but he's also the director of ICAMS in southwestern Sydney.

I think he still is, but there was just a tremendous, I think, appreciation for the role of social work. And so, you know, whenever I wanted to take on a student, it wasn't like, you know, why. It was like, okay, when do you want to do it and what do you need? You know, and I haven't experienced that sort of encouragement and kindness before. And it kind of took me off. And I was quite surprised, but I thought, hang on, what's how? happening here is there is there you know is he sort of dangling a carrot and sort of he's got something there and then I don't know about but it was just such a wonderful experience and there was a lot of

ease for me you know I could sort of navigate the system without much resistance really and that sort of that safety and that predictability you know I think the unit initially for me was quite scary but I think over time I'd become a relatively secure space you know and I sort of attribute my ability to learn and grow to that safety. And I think that's the difference also between an area where a student, a student will feel it. They'll understand the energy in the room when they get there of a social worker who feels pressured to take a student versus someone who wants to take a student and has to kind of put forward a business case.

So the student is going to feel so much more welcome in that environment as well. Yes, yes, absolutely. Absolutely right. It's like all of those sorts of issues there, you know, the sort of issues that I would have actually that I did have trouble with when I was working initially in the mental health unit regarding student placements none of that was a problem at all with new workplace and when did you decide to get your acute-dent mental health social work status and what was that process like for you so I decided in probably 22 I'd sort of put it off for a long time I

mean the application process is horrendous it's just it's horrible But I think, you know, I sort of had gotten to that place where, you know, similar to when I was at, you know, the adult mental health unit, I was asking myself, what am I able to learn here? What is it that I want to do more of? And can I do that where I am? And I think ultimately when I sort of sat back and thought about that, I was in denial, I think, for a long time. But I think eventually when I got through that process of thinking, I've decided now that probably I can't do as much of what I'm passionate about here. And so the question then became aware, do you need to go in order to do that? And what is it that you need to do?

And private practice, I think, just eventually dawned on me as being the place. And of course, going through the process of learning about accreditation, learning what it was that I needed to do to apply, just I think the sheer, you know, a matter of paperwork, the sort of stuff that you're required to do as part of your application. That really put me off for a long time. And so I sort of avoided it until I couldn't avoid it anymore. And then I just sort of made the plan to chip away at it very slowly, looking at it 15 to 20 minutes, half an hour each day.

And eventually I got it done. Yeah. Did you find that business and economics background helped in terms of developing your private practice? Well, no, I sort of joined a private practice that my colleague sets it up, you know. And so I think what was interesting about it was when they set up the business, it's called PTS or psychology training and supervision, it was focused around training clinicians in trauma-focused treatments. And it was around sort of trauma-focused CBT and then supervision. And so initially when it was set up, my interest in it was regarding supervision primarily. And so I've been doing supervision with them for a little while.

And then they decided, I think, after a period of time to open up like a therapy space as well. And so the question for them was, well, can you fit into this? And if you can, then what is it that you would be doing that would add value? That was my thinking as well. It was kind of like, I don't want to go to a place where I'm doing more of the same. I'm doing the same as everybody else. Can I go to a place where I can do what I want because I'm passionate about it, but also add value, you know, to the organization that I'm going into.

And it sort of came to that point of thinking, well, they're very good at trauma treatments. And they've been very calm to train me in trauma-focused work as well, which I do when I see individual clients. But, you know, my passion has always been in relational work, specifically with couples and families. And so there was that space for me, you know. And so it was a very natural progression to then just fit in to those. And are you the only social worker there or are there others? I am.

I'm the only social worker there. I think the rest of them are psychologists. So that's very interesting in and of itself. Yeah. And you're supervising people from other professions as well. How does that differ to supervising social workers, do you think? I think it's, they sort of come with, I think, different expectations of supervision. Like I find with social workers that there's more consistency in terms of, you know, when they request supervision.

You know, I think when I'm supervising other professionals, I've found anyway that it's a bit more inconsistent. And I don't know sort of what to put that down to, but it just seems like the value of the division, perhaps, for certain other professions, isn't the same as it is for social work. But very often, they sort of come with very similar things. Like they might come and talk about child protection concerns or about formulation and assessment. Or they might just seek a space for critical reflection. And I found that that's the case regardless of whether you're an OT or a CNC or a social worker. You know, if you come with a particular view in mind, it invariably falls within those few categories of practice. So in that sense, it's not too different.

And I imagine in psychology there would be a similar requirement as there is with social work in order to maintain some sort of registration to seek supervision. But with OT and nursing, is that not the case? I'm not sure. I'm just thinking about, you know, the O.T that I supervised. I mean, she's in private practice. So I don't know that there's that sort of requirement of her to seek supervision regularly. I'm not entirely sure. And with nursing staff, I mean, I'm just thinking about the CNC that I saw the other week.

For her, it's more like she doesn't need to necessarily do it that regularly, but she sees value in doing it regularly. You know, for her, it's a space where she can learn and reflect. And so she takes it on herself to attend that consistently. Yeah, yeah. I think people who are newer to professions, to allied health professions, are often a little bit more open to the concept of supervision than some who are, you know, 20, 30 years down the track.

And when I was working at the hospital, we, myself and our department's professional educator, we delivered the Hetty training, the Heddy Superguide training for the other. professions to be able to deliver supervision within their departments. And it was interesting how binary the response was. So there were some that were very much forward. And that tended to be the younger crowd.

And then there are some that have been working at the hospital for maybe 30 years and just kind of said we're not tree huggers and what's this all for. So just a very interesting response that kind of took me off guard. But in reflection, I thought, okay, well, it's just not what they used to. Exactly right. And I'm actually quite encouraged by, I think, newer social workers and how much value they place on supervision. I just think, you know, supervision is just, it's such a wonderful experience. And I find like it's a bit like compound interest, you know, if you sort of keep going at it. It sort of pays dividends, you know. That's the economist. Yeah, no, it's so true. What do you find most difficult about the work that you're doing, whether it's about the private practice or even just the content? I probably suffer a lot from imposter syndrome, you know? You sort of going to the field and then you get sort of very highly skilled professionals,

you know, coming to you with lots of different issues, you know. And you think, oh my God, like I'm doing it now on my own. I haven't got anybody in the room with me to tell me whether I'm doing it right or wrong. And so there's that sort of sense of being aware of myself in the room and continually worrying about whether or not I'm doing something wrong. or whether I'm doing something right. So that for me is, I think it's been a consistent feature of my career, really. I just think that now I've begun to, I think, appreciate that,

like you can be uncertain about something and unsure about something and yet still be curious and not judgmental. You know, it's almost like if you are able to remain curious, even though the tensions in the room are high when they're fighting and they're so escalated. If you can remain curious and calm enough that you'd be able to steady things enough for there to be some sort of progress.

And within that space, you sort of learn a lot about, I think, expectations have changed as well. You know, it's kind of like just because you've got, for example, a couple that you've worked with before who you've been able to help move mountains. It doesn't mean that a similar presentation with a similar couple,

you have the same result, you know. So with that, it sort of requires you to be a bit more, I think, nuanced and aware of what it is that you're doing, even though presentations might seem to be the same. Yeah. Do you think that uncertainty is highlighted more so now that you're in private practice, that you don't kind of have the same support network around you? I'd say so, yeah. I think of anything, it's, you know, I think that's one of the things I miss about where I used to work. you know you sort of would have the multi-disc team and it would always be debriefing and sharing formulations and you'd have that very safe and secure space there you know that sort of sense of containment and sharing of responsibility and risk that comes with working within the team

particularly with health service as well with private practice it's it's very different you know because you're in there on your own and so there's been a much stronger need i think for me to be proactive in retaining supervision, but I think also to continue learning independently, you know, it sort of puts that responsibility on you to do it. Yeah, it's really fascinating because I would have thought more so the more experienced you get, the more comfortable you'd feel with that, the less imposter syndrome you'd have because you think, well, I know more, I can deal with more, I've got the experience, but I think it's just so beneficial for other people, especially social workers early in their career, to know that that's okay.

It's normal to feel that imposter syndrome. And if anything, that is more just an indication that you're doing the right thing because you are curious and you are thinking, how could I be doing better rather than just assuming that the same thing that's worked for 10 years is going to work now. You're exactly right. And I think about it in terms of anxiety, right? Like when I am preparing to see a client, you know, and this is regardless of whether I've seen the before or not,

I feel anxious. But I sort of look at the anxiety as a way of keeping myself alert. That, you know, you're going into territory that's relatively uncharted, you know, and so you need to have your wits about you. You can't assume anything really. And you need to be open and curious because that's what the client in the space requires of you. And I've found that once I get going, I mean, anxiety just sort of fades away and it becomes a bit more organic.

And you sort of then, I think, learn to treat into what's happening, you know, in the space between you and the client and things just happen a bit more sort of naturally. You know, there is this difference, I think, between perception and reality. You know, I have this whole thing in my mind about whether I can do it or not, whether I'm good enough or not and so on. And that, you know, often it's, it's, it's,

stands and stark contrast to what colleagues would think that I'm able to do, you know, and so even that that sort of contrast is something that I keep in mind sometimes to remind me that, you know, maybe you actually do know something and you can add something. And I mean, really, if you didn't, then people probably wouldn't come back, you know. And so thinking about it that way as well. Do you have an opportunity to work with people from different cultural backgrounds or similar to yourself? You know what it's interesting. I've been asked this before. I've had clients say to me, you know, because you're Asian, most of your clients must be Asian. I didn't like that says it's a trait. And I'm like, no, no. Actually, I've only had like a small

number of clients. You're Asian. I think most of my clients are Caucasian or European. Yeah. So would you say that an indication of, I'm just thinking the last, very last episode before yours was with, a lovely Vietnamese social worker based in Victoria. And she's trying really hard to help break down some of the stigma that comes with the culture. So there's a huge barrier to just accessing therapy or even understanding and having really good expectations around what therapy is and can be. It's not, you know, you go once and then you're cured kind of thing. They kind of wanted really quick outcomes. and she's having a real hard time trying to explain to people that,

no, no, no, this isn't going to work. Otherwise, it's a band-aid. We really need to work on the foundational stuff first. So I'm wondering if that's just a byproduct of marketing, or is it more to do with ingrained expectations or understanding around mental health? When I was at the mental health unit, my first job, I think they employed me in part because I am Vietnamese. you know, and the war that I was working in,

it sort of covered the Fairfield Capramatta, LGA, and you had a significant portion of the clients who were from Vietnam, you know, and so it was almost, I think, assumed, and later on, I think some colleagues have said to me, you know, it was assumed that because of Vietnamese, you would be able to speak the language, you'd be able to understand the culture more.

And so, you know, there was an expectation that perhaps I should have been able to do my job, you know, well because I know, the culture and I could therefore work better, you know, with the clients. But I don't know, like I, I think even though I'm very clearly Asian, I think I'm very sort of Eurocentric in terms of how I see the world and, you know, I've been in Australia for most of my life, really. And I think for people who meet me, it's kind of like, oh, you don't seem like anything like your picture, you know, I've had colleagues and so people say that to me before and, you know,

that probably plays a role, I suppose, in, in what people expect. of me, but very, very similar to what you mentioned before in terms of those barriers, you know, when I have worked with clients from Southeast Asia or other sort of smaller minority groups that, you know, therapy or the idea of therapy, it's not so, so normal for them. You know, it's just very sort of uterocentric idea, you know, it's talking therapy. What is it? You know, why is it necessary? Can't you just take something for the, for feeling sad and make it go away? Why is it necessary, again, to come back, again, to talk to you about what the problems are. Can't you just make it go away? Isn't there a

appeal for this? Yeah, which is hard. What support do you require in life space other than being around other people that you can bounce off and feel supported and feel like you're doing good work? Well, I have ongoing supervision. So I mean, I've had my current supervisor now for about four years, four or five years. And it's something I do quite religiously. And so I make a priority every four to six weeks really to plug into supervision. And even if it's not sort of talking about case formulations, it's more about like reflecting or where I am. You know, I think what I've noticed over time with supervision is that it becomes less about technique, assessment, formulation, and treatment. It becomes more about use of self. You know, it's like

if you've got these experiences yourself, like how do they help to inform what it is that you do in your work. How does it help you to be more mindful of what it is that you're doing? You know, how does it help you to decide whether to lean into something or to sit back to give space or use silence? You know, and so it's become a bit more about the more intangible stuff, the stuff that's a bit less obvious in the room. Yeah. And how do you make time for yourself? How do you find space and balance? Given you've got the two kiddos at home, you've got a lot going on. I love reading. I also love photography. And, you know, my interest in people, I think, shows in that I love street photography, you know.

So I'm always very curious about people on the street and what they're doing and how they go about, you know, their business. But I think of late, I've been looking a lot more at exercise. It's probably something that I probably don't do enough of. I do a lot of walking. But in terms of the other sort of light exercise, I don't do enough of. So I've been slowly trying to work that into my routine with how I go about my day. But again, it's like putting myself in that position where I'm going. I'm needing to actively think about how can I be the best clinician that I can be for the client that walks through that door.

What is it that I need to do to fill my cup or to meet my needs that's going to enable me to do that? Yeah. And also, what's going to enable you to do that long term? We've had the experience of burnout and it's not just what can you do for your clients. It's what can you do to make sure that you're there for your clients? Well, absolutely, absolutely. And of course, you know, like outside of the, you know, the work, You know, I'm also a husband, you know, my father, like you said, but I'm also a son, a brother, a friend.

And so I've got needs in different relational contexts. And it's that sort of question of, well, how do I make myself available for the various relationships that I've got? And what is it that I need to do in order to keep myself afloat, but also do it in a way that's kind of ensure longevity. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Given that you've had a bit of time in this space now in mental health, have you seen any changes over time, any good things? or things that aren't going quite as well. Look, I think there's been a greater appreciation for, you know, the social determinants of health.

When I was doing my placements, there was a lot of talk, you know, about that. But I think what I found, particularly in the past five or six years or so when I was at a unit, was that there was just a greater appreciation for what was happening in the person's life outside of them, you know, and it's been reflected quite clearly in how the multidisciplinary team would work, you know, and just how they assess what problems are. And so it's sort of look at treatment of the individual, you know, the symptoms. But then you'd also look at things like education. You'd look at finances.

You'd look at, you know, the occupational functioning. And you'd look at all the aspects of a person's life, which could be affected by the mental health issue. And you sort of plug resources in that would ensure that that person has the best opportunity to, you know, get back on their feet. So I've seen that happen just much more naturally now. And that's been such an encouraging experience for me, because I just remember all those years ago when I started that that wasn't necessarily the case. You know, back then it was like you reduce the symptoms that you're retained, there wouldn't be very much else.

And sometimes you would discharge them to secondary form or bonelessness, you know, but that was just what was done at the time. Now there's a lot more care and consideration into the other aspect. of a person's life. And it's such a nice thing to see. Yeah, it really is. And in the same way, I know that you've done training around relational intimacy and there's a big push these days towards psychosexual therapy, which I think is wonderful. I've had Candice, wonderful Candice on the podcast a couple of times and she's a social worker, but she's done training in psychosexual therapy and she has her own business now. And there's a lot more, I guess, there's a lot more respect for that

role and being able to see a person as their context, their whole and how that affects, especially after, say, brain injury or spinal cord injury, the types of people that I support. So, yeah, I love seeing that there is a little bit more push towards seeing a person as a whole. Absolutely. It's a good sign, isn't it? Maybe it's because there are so many social workers working in insurance now or working in, say, lifetime care, those catastrophic injury spaces. Yeah.

We get places and we influence and I think that's really important for us to do is sort of not even just policy, but shifting the way that things are perceived or the direction that programs can go. Absolutely, absolutely right. If you weren't doing this, I know you absolutely love it and you've been working towards this your entire career, but are there any types of social work that have seemed interesting to you that you thought you might explore later on? Look, I've always been curious about the, you know, the grief and loss space. It's just, it's been one of those areas that I've just, I've found to be very, very difficult to navigate. Like my, my wife is a social worker as well and she's currently at the Leukemia Foundation, but she's been like in her career mostly in oncology, you know, so she's done a lot of grief or loss stuff. And I just remember talking to her about her work and just wondering how on earth are you meant to sort of work with it.

space you know like if you know that somebody's dying what do you do how are you meant to navigate that so I've always been curious about that you know not brave enough to jump into it yet but that's probably an area I think that I would like to know a bit more about yeah what is it do you think that interests her in that area of work I don't know like I I sort of look at her as a very sort of upbeat and resourceful person when she's confronted with a situation where you know, potentially that there aren't many sort of options. She's, it forces her to be very creative with how she intervenes. And I think she enjoys the challenge of being able to think on their feet and come up with,

you know, different forms of intervention, which are effective. You know, I think that's probably what she's enjoyed about it, mostly. Yeah. Yeah. Are there any projects or programs that you're working on at the moment outside of the therapy role? Do you get to diversify a little? No. I haven't done much project for a long time at the moment.

I'm just very curious about how we can do better. You know, that's sort of like I've had people in the past, like where you are in your career, you should be doing management, you know, or you shouldn't be sort of at that sort of level. But I've never been curious enough to go there. Like it's not an area of my life where I think, no, I don't want to be doing that at all. I've always been curious about therapy, you know,

and about how I can do therapy better. I think for me now it's about, well, I want to know a bit more about, you know, relational intimacy. You know the role of sex in therapy, for example. So that's one of my goals, I think, for the next few months is to learn a bit more about that space. Are there any resources along the lines of the relational intimacy or anything in terms of the approaches that you use, anything that you kind of shout out if people wanted to know more about the work you do? Yeah, so I can send you a link, or a list of things as well, but I'm a big fan of EFT.

So, you know, Sue Johnson's model, which I think that's probably the model that have been trained most in and the one I probably use the most. But I also love Martha Calpsey's work as well. I think she's the director of the Institute of Relational Intimacy, and her work, I think, is just amazing. I love Esther Perel. I mean, she just, she's one of those people that just, I think, you know, the word just rolls of you, you know, Esther Perel. She's absolutely, you know, amazing, you know, in terms of just how elegantly she talks about relationships. You know, I can't help her think of Bray Brown as well. She's one of those people again, you know, that sort of comes to mind for me.

And this is going to maybe surprise you because it does surprise a lot of people when they ask me, like, who are your biggest influences? And there's a guy named Chris Boss. I don't know if you've heard of him, but he's actually, he was. I think at one point the head of counterterrorism for the FBI at one point in he wrote a book could never split the difference and it's quite wonderful because it sort of teaches you about engagements with clients who have a lot of sort of resistance or defensiveness and so I found a lot of his stuff just very very helpful in helping me to navigate some of the blocks that I encounter so when I work with

clients so I mean I read very broadly and I think in a way I don't limit myself to therapists as such. If there's something that I can learn from somebody from a different walk of life, I will engage with that. Because I think in a way there is so much more to therapy than the reading about therapy. You know, there's so much more that you can learn about life by engaging in other parts. That's so great. Have you listened to any of the interviews with Esther Perel and Bray Brown? They're incredible.

Not together. No. No. It's kind of like your favorite crossover episode of a TV show. It's really great. I don't have to make time and look it up, I think. Yeah, they're good friends, actually, and it's really lovely just hearing them chat with each other. It's good fun. Yeah.

Before we finish up, Gull, is there anything else you wanted to talk about in relation to your work or social work in general? No, look, I think I just want to thank you for the opportunity for, you know, to be in the podcast, really. I think you've got a really lovely style of engagement and it's very sort of warm and welcoming. So again, thank you for the opportunity. It's been my pleasure. And I'm just so grateful to yourself and everyone else who's given me their time and opened up about their world because the number of people who have said to me, it's just so refreshing and lovely to hear from other people. It gives them kind of energy to keep going. And it definitely gives me energy.

And I love expanding my network and learning. It's almost like doing supervision every time in terms of how am I building on what someone else has learned about or what someone else gets out of it. It's just, yeah, it's energizing for me too. So I'm very grateful to you. Wonderful. Well, I hope you continue with this because it's lovely. I hope too. We're up to, I think you're 112 or 113.

Wow. That's incredible. Yeah, started before the pandemic. So that's a thing that seems like forever ago. I hope that you persist with this. It's wonderful. Thank you. I hope so too. I hope that people continue to be generous. But I very much appreciate you telling about your beginnings in social work in terms of the mental health placement and supporting people who were, from your perspective, at least, at greater risk and disadvantage.

And that experience gave you a sense of potential for growth and recovery. of support for people that were in difficult situations and the placement experience from what you were saying required a lot of reflection and use of self in the work that you were doing and figuring out what could help you get through really difficult periods and burnout is something that you just kind of learn as you go but hopefully have good people around you who can work through that and you found a way to diversify and network with others and figuring out who were the best people to have around you to support you and just that importance of listening to your body so your first tells were that anxiety or just the oh i don't feel right coming to

work i don't feel like i can give my full self so usually those physical tells are the first sign and that's what you've got to listen to but what you're saying around just remaining curious and and being able to develop and learn as you go is fundamental to any social worker so yeah really love that you've you've been able to describe all that. And thank you, again, so much for your time. I really appreciate it. You're welcome. Thank you for the opportunity.

Thanks for joining me this week. If you'd like to continue this discussion or ask anything of either myself or goal, please visit my anchor page at anchor.fm. slash social work spotlight. You can find me on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter, or you can email SW Spotlight Podcast at gmail.com. I'd love to hear from you.

Please also let me know if there is a particular topic you'd like discussed. or if you or another person you know would like to be featured on the show. Next episode's guest is Shanade, who works with individuals in a student well-being team in a university setting, supporting students who are impacted

by challenges that affect their studies. Shanade also has experience working with children, adolescents, and adults in both disability and mental health, family intervention, and domestic violence. I release a new episode every two weeks.

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