Social Work Spotlight - Episode 12: Laura

Episode Date: September 4, 2020

In this episode, Laura and I discuss her experience in direct practice supporting women, men, children and families impacted by human trafficking and modern slavery, individuals seeking asylum, and women experiencing gender-based violence. Laura now works as the Head of Social Policy at Good Shepherd Australia New Zealand, leading the development of social policy and advocacy shaping responses to key issues which impact the safety and well-being of women, children and families. We also discuss her current PhD in criminology exploring the experiences of young women facing forced marriage.Links to resources mentioned in this week’s episode:COVID-19 x Modern SlaveryAs the pandemic wreaks havoc on supply chains, are companies losing sight of their social responsibility? Marie Segrave and Dayna Simpson: Monash University - https://lens.monash.edu/@politics-society/2020/06/22/1380682/modern-slavery-post-covid-19-are-companies-losing-sight-of-their-corporate-social-responsibilityPhD Research: Exploring young women’s experiences of forced marriage in AustraliaActively recruiting participants - for more information visit - https://www.forcedmarriageresearch.com/Good Shepherd:· Social Policy Work - https://goodshep.org.au/policy-research/· Policy work on forced marriagehttps://goodshep.org.au/policy-research/forced-marriage-in-australia/Churchill Fellowship:· Laura’s Report: https://www.churchilltrust.com.au/fellow/?id=PR0014259· More information on the Fellowship: https://www.churchilltrust.com.au/become-a-fellow/· The Social Work Community of Practice: https://www.churchilltrust.com.au/news_item/a-whole-is-greater-than-the-sum-of-its-parts/Social work and social policy readings· The Social Worker’s Role in Social Policy: Arthur Katzhttps://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/002087286100400201?journalCode=iswb· Social Work and the Making of Social Policy: Ute Klammer, Simone Lieber, Sigrid Leitnerhttps://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctvhktj6v· Social Workers Affecting Social Policy: An International Perspective: Nigel Hallhttps://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09503153.2015.1012398?journalCode=cpra20Practical Toolbox: tools for social policy and advocacyhttps://www.ourcommunity.com.au/advocacy/advocacy_article.jsp?articleId=2394This episode's transcript can be viewed here:https://drive.google.com/file/d/1s7qZkukjopDDJF_NFXI8Lf_brloIH_kH/view?usp=sharingThanks to Kevin Macleod of incompetech.com for our theme music.

Hi and welcome to Social Work Spotlight where I showcase different areas of the profession each episode. I'm your host, Yasmin McKee Wright, and today's guest is Laura. Laura is a social worker with a master's degree in human rights, law and policy. Following almost a decade in direct practice supporting women, men, children and families, impacted by human trafficking and modern slavery, individuals seeking asylum, and women experiencing gender-based violence, Laura now works as the head of social policy at Good Shepherd Australia, New Zealand. Laura brings her service delivery experience to lead the development of social policy and advocacy,

shaping responses to key issues which impact the safety and well-being of women, children and families. In her spare time, Laura is undertaking a PhD in criminology, exploring the experiences of young women facing forced marriage. Thank you so much, Laura, for coming on to the podcast. It's wonderful having you here. When did you begin as a social worker and what drew you to the profession? Yeah, so I've been a social worker for 10 years. I don't really know.

People ask me that question a lot, actually, about why did you become a social worker? And to be honest, when I was like in high school and having to choose university preferences, my first preference was to be a vet. Okay. And it was right like at the end at the day. deadline where it was like, this is the last day you can change your preferences. I was like, oh, I'm going to choose social work instead. And I guess I've always sort of felt a like deep commitment to human rights and to advancing human rights and also I guess the vast opportunities,

which is a little bit depressing actually, that come from, you know, how much needs to change in the world to ensure that people can experience the fullness of their human rights. And so when I describe it to people, when I'm sort of forced to, I would say it feels very vocational to me. It feels very much like this is why I'm here on earth, because I feel like there is an opportunity to change things. And the more I think about it, the more uncomfortable I would be, I guess, sitting around silent about all of those things that I do see that are challenges in the world. And so in some ways, I feel like social work chose me. Did you know anybody growing up that was a social worker? I'm just wondering how you kind of

got to that point. Well, my mum has worked in child protection for 20 plus years. So a large part of my growing up was, you know, living with somebody who worked in a helping profession. She wasn't social work qualified, but qualified in community services and has worked in that field for a very long time. And I would say maybe not necessarily, I don't think I knew anybody who worked as a social worker, but from quite a young age, I guess the way I was raised was very much around a connection to community and, you know, recognition of how privileged we were growing up and that, you know, whatever opportunity you had to, you know, acknowledge that not everybody lives the way we live was sort of very much a part of my upbringing.

And I remember I was eight years old when mum took me to my first reclaim the night rally, which was for anybody who doesn't know is a movement in the 90s around sexual violence and violence against women. And it was the Reclaim the Night Rally in the neighbourhood that I grew up in. And I was pretty young. And it was a pretty interesting experience, first kind of interaction with outward feminism, first kind of interaction with what it means to take social action to the street. So in some ways I don't necessarily know, you know, that it's about knowing social workers or being raised around them more so than it is about the values alignment. So fast forward, say, 10 years from that first rally, was there a point at which you thought, okay, I think I made the right choice here?

Oh, look, I think about it every day. Like, I think that I made the right choice every day. and my career, I guess, has traversed a couple of different arenas. After I did social work, I worked in the field for about four years before I did my master's, and I did a master's in human rights law and policy. So I chose not to do a master's in social work because what I had realized in my early days of doing direct client practice is that there was only so much that I could do as a practitioner and that a lot of the issues that people were facing when I was interacting with

them were systemic issues. Different people would come and be experiencing the same barriers over and over again and it wasn't barriers that they themselves were in control of ever being able to change. And that was really frustrating as a social work practitioner because I kind of sat there all the time thinking, you know, these people deserve so much more than the system affords them. So when I did my master's, I finished that in 2014. You know, it is in human rights law and policy. And it was really from there that my work started to shift into more indirect practice. And for a period of time there, I was doing combined practice.

So direct and indirect practice together and where I am now is doing indirect practice. direct practice essentially. I am the head of social policy at Good Shepherd, Australia, New Zealand, and we work on social policy advocacy around women, girls and families, particularly around the gendered social structures that create oppressive systems for women to be able to experience fullness of life. So my social work values and my experience as a practitioner feeds into that work every single day. And every single day, I'm reminded of the unique difference that a practitioner come policy expert actually brings to that social policy world. Yeah. And yeah, I mean, the short answer to your question is every day, I'm grateful that I chose this profession.

And how do you think the roles you've held up until this point have guided you through that process. Yeah, look, some have been no end of challenge and some have challenged the very essence, I guess, of what I learnt to do as a social worker or what I was trained to do. And sometimes it's really challenged me around social work education, how we actually train social workers and what we encourage from them in their education. And, you know, it's unpopular opinion perhaps, but sometimes I'm really frustrated because while certain things are really important in social work education, like boundaries and clinical guidelines and so on and so forth, my very first experience of being out of university and working directly with

very, very vulnerable people was that I was terrified. I was terrified of breaking the rules. I was terrified of crossing the boundaries so much so that I was almost operating like a robot and I had forgotten actually I came to this profession for a human to human interaction that was about empowering people and I was too terrified. So in some ways I would consider myself a little bit more radical these days in challenging some of that like where actually is the hard line because we cannot forget that at the end of this is a human. being who needs another human being. So it's an interesting thing because I don't know that I would hold that view if I

wasn't put in some particular situations that really, I guess, pushed me to my limits of my social work toolbox. And one of those scenarios was working on Nauru and Manus Island. No amount of conventional social work practice worked. in that environment. Are you able to tell me a little bit more about that experience? Oh, yo, o'i. What the scenario was?

Yeah, I mean, I could tell you a little bit. And I guess the way I describe it to people is that I felt like when I arrived there, everything that I knew about social work or the skills that I had developed over the years before I got there was sort of like on the ground and kicked from one end of the place to the other. and they needed to be put back together again in a way that worked for that particular environment. My job there was managing the overall delivery of the case management program for the contracted service provider. And, you know, there were particular contracted KPIs and things like that. But at its essence, it was really about the well-being of people who were detained on Narrow Manus Island.

And that was incredibly challenging because you cannot make a case plan. You cannot create a plan for somebody who has nothing. You know, they are detained in a remote island in some of the harshest conditions. And it was almost insulting to try and suggest that they were going to experience something positive, empowering or life-giving in that environment. You know, so survival became the main task. And how long were you there? So my role was split. I worked in a head office kind of role,

but I would travel to Nauru, Manus Island, back to back, usually once a month, a week at a time, to each place. And I did that job for 18 months. Okay. Well, you stuck out of for quite a while. What was the attitude or culture like towards the social work role in that space? Yeah, it was interesting. I was working for a not-for-profit provider.

So in many ways, the role was about actually pushing back on some of the other things that we may not necessarily have preferred or agreed with. So for us, within our organisation, the social work role was really key and it was really central to maintaining, you know, as much well-being as we could. And, you know, we were engaged in all kinds of interventions with people who were quite unwell in that environment, as one could imagine. But for the most part, it had a very clearly defined role and it was really about keeping people safe. And I don't think there was necessarily a positive or negative attitude towards it. It just was what it was. And

the kind of environment that we worked in with the number of agencies that were there, everybody had their clearly defined role and it was important in some ways that everybody kind of stuck to that in order for that to work. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. You mentioned a little bit earlier about your role in social policy at the Good Shepherd. Yes. What would a typical day be like for you? Oh, look, it's all kinds of things. I joined Good Shepherd two and a half years ago in a policy specialist role and essentially my area of expertise and my background is in human trafficking and slavery and particularly in the area of forced marriage and so the specialist role that I had initially at Good Shepherd was around safety and resilience and what that really looks at is the safety

of women and girls so I looked after policy portfolios around forced marriage trafficking family violence and what it looked like is responding to the environment. So policy inquiries or legislative inquiries, being able to write submissions and then track those submissions, present evidence towards, you know, parliamentary committees and essentially the ultimate aim is about changing law and policy to better reflect the experiences of women and girls in Australia and to also ensure that the interventions that are available to them are what they need. Yeah. What it looks like now is much broader remit because I look after the whole sort of policy

arena for the organisation and our areas of focus are quite diverse, but centrally or broadly are on safety and resilience, housing, financial security and gender equality. And what we do is we identify ways to influence public policy and to disrupt systems that create oppression. So it still looks quite similar in terms of we engage in targeted campaigns and interventions around particular issues of importance to us. So where we're generating new research or identifying practice challenges because of systems, we will, I guess, try and build the policy platform. And then in the other side of things, being responsive to the environment, what that looks like is really about seeing the issues that are arising

within the public policy landscape that reflect the key focus areas of the organisation and making a contribution to that. So, for example, Good Shepherd does a lot of work in financial security and financial capability. And earlier this year, there was a piece of legislation being debated around payday lenders. And we know, for example, that predatory lenders often target vulnerable people. There's particular issues around women who have experienced family violence who need emergency funds and who then find themselves incredibly financially vulnerable as a result of being vulnerable in the first place

trying to seek a loan and there's not so much governance and guidance around what payday lenders can do and then how they can essentially continue to compound people's debt. So we produced a submission which looked at the gendered aspects of that particular predatory behaviour. We made recommendations on what the legislation should do. We then prepared our CEO to be able to present ahead of a parliamentary committee and then, you know, when that report comes out, what we do is we look at how what we have asked for is reflected in the committee's report and then we'll seek to engage committee members and or government around those particular recommendations to influence pushing legislation through the parliament.

Do you find that working for an NGO there's a different level of influence? You mentioned media and campaigns. I'm wondering whether that's received any differently from an NGO than it would be from, say, a government department. I've always worked for NGOs, so I'm not sure I could speak to what it's like doing policy advocacy in governments. But I think there's kind of an expectation from government that is civil society and the NGO sector that is going to create that disruption

and is going to try and build that accountability, whatever side of the line that you're on. In some ways, I think the role of civil society and NGOs is really important from that accountability factor. The freedom to be able to do advocacy, however, varies, dependent on what your other obligations might be. I've experienced varying degrees of being able to do advocacy within NGOs, particularly where there may be some conflicts of individuals.

because the organisation does multi-dimensional things. But I think the role of NGOs in doing policy advocacy is really, really important. I mean, we are connected to the front line. We understand the issues intimately. We are interfacing with people every day to be able to help them have a different experience and an experience that means they access all of their rights. We can't always do that because of the systems. and we know from those experiences where those system blocks actually are.

So it can be frustrating because I think there's varying degrees of influence that NGOs can have. But at the same time, it's critically important that that remains because that is a voice. That is a voice that the community drives. And it's also an opportunity for people to be able to use that voice. The other element, I guess, of policy advocacy within not-for-profit organisations is the ability to create space for service participants, consumers, victim survivors to actually contribute to that narrative and to share what they believe would change for them if certain things were different.

Okay. What would you say is the most challenging thing about your role? I think working in an environment where there's really no certainty that what you're doing is actually going to lead to that change. You have to continue to push for it. You have to continue to drive it in those directions. But you have to be incredibly flexible and incredibly adaptable to the environment itself because, you know, there might be something that you think is really, really important. but if it is not the right time, you're never going to get it over the line. So I think one of the frustrating things is that I have intimate knowledge about a number of systemic challenges that impact the livelihood of women and girls.

And there's only so much that you can A do or B that you think will be successful. So building that influence and then being able to get a win is usually pretty slow. and it can be few and far between. So that can be pretty frustrating. And it really depends on the government of the day. So we had worked very significantly on a particular policy platform for forced marriage, a couple of organisations. And we had shaped this really brilliant policy platform with the Labour government.

And then the election happened. And a result that none of us were expecting happened. and that meant our choice to build something with labour, which is a choice, you know, in terms of advocacy strategies, political strategies, you know, you can make a choice. And we chose to work with labour because it was just not something that would have got ground with the government.

And then, you know, the election result happened and we didn't succeed. So that's, there's risk in, making certain choices, there's frustration in not getting outcomes. Like there's so much within the policy arena that is outside of your control. And you can influence and you can agitate and you can try and disrupt. But at the end of the day, you're not in control of any of the decision making. So, yeah, the frustrating part is about rungs on the board and, you know, very slow turning wheels to get wins. Right.

And what are some of those main agencies that you would collaborate with? Usually other NGOs that have similar focus areas. Previous to my role at Good Shepherd, I worked with the Salvation Army for a long time. And I'd build a lot of policy work there as well as practice. And so I still continue to collaborate with the Salvation Army, particularly around the trafficking, slavery and forced marriage space. In the broader social policy space, there's a whole range of different alliances and groups.

Good Shepherd's a member of one of the seven women's alliances. So the government funds seven alliances that focus on issues pertaining to women. One of those is the Equality Rights Alliance, which has a very broad remit around women's equality and we're a member of that. So we would collaborate, endorse and engage in shared and collective advocacy with them. And then really it depends on the issue. So in terms of things around welfare conditionality, like New start and the cashless debit card and parents next and all these other kind of welfare programs that essentially threaten the social security net of Australia. We're part of a number of other alliances like the Accountable Income Management Network,

treating families fairly stop the debt trap alliance. And then they're membered by a whole range of other folks, largely not-for-profit or civil society representatives. Okay. And what would you say is your favourite thing about what you do? Look, I like having the opportunity to influence and to try and change things. I mean, if you don't try, it's a pretty sad day when we all stop trying. So I think the opportunity is great within not-for-profit or civil society or

organisations around bringing key issues of concern to the first. and in doing that, you're essentially, if anything, making it a little bit more difficult for that other pretty crappy policy to get airtime. So I like that. I really like that I have an opportunity and I have a platform to influence change and it may be slow, but it's so important and so, you know, you've got to stick with it. Yeah. And I know in your previous, role you mentioned on Nauru and Manus Islands, most of your work would have been trauma-related and less so in this new role, but there's still that element of your supporting people who have been traumatised. I'm curious to know what looking after yourself looks like in that

space and what supports do you need? Yeah, I mean, I think it hasn't really mattered what work I've done across my social work career, trauma-informed principles really do sit at the centre because even in social policy work, you are working on things that are essentially other people's traumatic experiences because systems trauma is a very real thing that is often not recognised, you know, people think and talk about trauma as something that they experience and that's what brings them to a service or brings them into a system. But there's very little attention drawn to systems trauma and that is about how then your interaction with the system

compounds existing trauma or creates new trauma. And so a trauma-informed lens to social policy is equally important as it is to, you know, direct practice work. So from a kind of self-care perspective, I still access, even though I do indirect practice, I still access monthly external supervision. You know, I've got regular internal supervision. I also am part of a sort of supervision group with a couple of the practitioners who still do direct practice. So there's some internal and external supports that are really, you know, quite professional supports.

And then, you know, the cliches, I guess, of, you know, keeping your. self in check around diet and exercise and time away. I think, you know, doing this work in a time of COVID-19 has, you know, called some of those things into sharp focus because my living room has become my office. And so when I transition from my computer to my couch, I'm still looking at all the things that have filed up during the day. So that's been a much more of a conscious effort to try and think about how to create that separation. And I can't say that I've really quite worked that out yet if I want to be truly honest about it. Yeah. And is there any discussion around when you could return back to some regular workspace? No. Look, there's

some planning around it, but essentially the public health approach is the less people on public transport, the less people out and about in the community, the better. I have, you know, what's considered a back-end role, so I don't really need to interact with clients or really need to interact with people outside of, you know, my current remote interactions. So if anything, I'll probably be one of the last people back to the office. That's okay, to be honest. I feel like in terms of how my work operates, it doesn't so much matter where I am. But yeah, it's been a new mental shift around like your house also. being a workplace. And I don't think it really matters what kind of work you do. I think everybody

who's been forced to do that is probably experiencing some of the same disconnect, I guess, around what that means and the merging of the home and the work life. Yeah. And I'm glad that there has been some more exposure at the moment to issues of domestic and family violence during the COVID restrictions. But I think what's probably hidden and it's just systemically hidden and not many people hear about it or know about it is the trafficking issues and people who are stuck here without residency status or visas. What does that look like for the people that are being supported by your programs? Yeah, look, I think one of the very key issues is actually the issue of women on temporary visas. You know, even outside of a pandemic, women on temporary visas have very, very little

access to support largely their visa status, shuts them out of things like temporary accommodation. And so what we have seen essentially is that women are even more isolated and it's taking very serious events before somebody will disclose what's happening. And sometimes that's too late. It's difficult at the moment to really map or talk about, you know, increased rates of domestic violence during the COVID-19 pandemic. I think anecdotally, we see that. but at the same time, all of the ways in which people can reach out are very difficult.

Calling a phone number when you are living 24-7 with somebody who is a threat to you is usually not a safe thing to do. So what is happening, you know, whether you're on a temporary visa or not, is what we see is really people are waiting to the very, very last minute. And so the presentations that are coming are of a much more serious nature. whereas previously somebody may have felt confident or felt like they had greater access to an early intervention solution. With respect to trafficking, that's a very complex issue because there are a number of difficulties that exist prior to, you know, a pandemic, which include conditions of work,

overcrowded living spaces, irregular migration, expiry of visas, all kinds of issues. And what the pandemic does is essentially decreases people's access even further. But, you know, health and safety regulations, for example, that everybody has been asked to abide by are not things that migrant workers who are in agricultural work camps are able to adhere to. So the risk to their health is significant and they are a hidden group of people in Australia that have essentially not been recognised and there has been, you know, no resources or no attention to the significant number of, you know, workers in Australia that have kept food on tables. Whether it's trafficking or whether it's migrant labour, there is an incredibly

large number of people that live in Australia under precarious conditions that have not received support or visibility in the context of the pandemic. And are there any particular projects or campaigns that Good Shepherd is working on to try to increase that exposure? Not that Good Shepherd is working on. I know there is some work happening from some others in the sector but very careful work, so not to create situations where people are even more disadvantaged.

And then there is some research findings and commentary coming from Monash University, so Marie Seagrave at Monash has put a couple of opinion pieces out around the challenges of the pandemic for people who are temporary visa holders or for migrant workers who are essentially being left in visible. You've had quite a unique career path so far with your project work, your research, your international work. What do you think are some other opportunities that these types of experiences might open up for you in the future? Yeah, I mean, I have not really planned my career. Right from the get-go. Right from the get-go. I've not really planned it. And, you know, to be fair, when I chose to do social work at the 11th hour,

I went into that degree not really knowing what I wanted to do. I think, you know, while I was doing my degree, I realized all the things I didn't want to do, but I didn't really know what I wanted to do. And then my third year placement was at the Salvation Army in the Trafficking and Slavery Safehouse. And I thought, oh gosh, I never even really thought that this was work that I could do

all that needed to be done. And it's so multi-dimensional and it cuts across so many different areas of practice that I thought, oh, yeah, I could stay here and do this. But it's pretty funny. And my supervisor at the time, who's now a very good friend of mine said she was in America when I started my placement and didn't even know that I was turning up. And so I kind of turned up on my first day and my supervisor wasn't there and it was all very chaotic and then I really didn't get anything.

You know, I was probably three or four weeks into my placement and I was like, oh, look, and I'm calling the university and I'm saying, oh, this isn't going to work. I've got to get out of here. And, you know, they kind of encouraged me to stick with it. And then, you know, my supervisor came back from overseas and they kind of sorted out all the administrative stuff. And I'm so glad I stuck with it. And I'm so glad that I had that opportunity actually.

And after that placement, I ended up staying on and working there. And I did a large part of the first half of my career working in and out and on and off at the Salvation Army in a couple of different roles. And I've just kind of said yes to stuff. Like, I've never really planned it. You know, people would say, oh, would you be interested in working on this? And I'd say, oh, yeah. And I just, you know, and I just did it. And there was one day my manager turned to me and she said, oh, this consultancy thing with the

international labour organisation has fallen through. The consultant is like MIA. They need somebody in Jordan in like two weeks time to like finish this project. Do you want to go? And I was like, okay. And so like literally two weeks notice, I'm like rolling up at the airport in Amman in Jordan by myself being like, right, let's do this. So in terms of, you know, what do the opportunities look like in the future, I don't know. You know, if I keep going the way in which I've gone,

I'm sure it will be exciting. But I am doing my PhD at the moment. So in terms of, you know, exciting things, they are probably on hold until I work my way through a PhD. I'm a year and a bit in, so I've still got quite a bit to go. But that's my exciting thing right now and then think, okay, when I've done that, let's see what's out there. Let's see how I can use my skills or where people feel like I can make a valuable contribution. You know, in terms of my career, I'm pretty much a yes person. If it sounds interesting, I'll give it a crack. Yep. Yep. Never a dull day. What changes have you seen over the last, say, five, ten years since you started in social

work or in this field, particular? I feel a bit depressed being asked that question because the change is so slow. You know, and there's been some good policy wins along the way, you know, several years ago we had a win around changing a visa structure for victims of trafficking. and we've had some wins around partial delinking of support from the criminal justice system for victims of forced marriage. But if I'm truly honest, stuff in Australia moves at a glacial pace. And it would be, you know, back to your other question that you asked,

one of the biggest frustrations is the pace in which things move. It's very slow. I mean, and to be honest, in terms of social work, and I supervise social work, students. I don't see a lot that has really changed in terms of like the profession. It's pretty grounded in its roots, I think, which has some value. But, you know, the students that I've supervised in the last couple of years have come and done social policy placements and they remark themselves that there's not enough of this content within their degree programs, not enough opportunity to do things in relation to social policy work. And so I guess sometimes I kind of play with

this idea of what would social work education look like if there was, you know, a very clear stream of what it means to push up and push down and that kind of upstream work as opposed to downstream work. But I think, you know, you can do social policy within your social work degree, but I don't know that it's sort of balanced with the same amount of like clinical practice. And, you know, that has absolutely been the reflection of some of the students that I've had over the last few years who've just lapped up the ability to, you know, see social policy in action. So that, I guess, isn't really an answer to your question, but it's more about, you know, what I'd like to see change in that regard. But what has changed is we have had policy wins,

but they're small and there are still things I'm asking for now that I've been asking for for 10 years. Sure. Well, I guess if we, let's say we fast forward 10 years, what would you like to see happening? How much time do we have? I mean... What's realistic, I guess, given your experience? Well, I think, you know, if I just focus on one issue and that would be the forced marriage

issue, primarily because from a policy perspective, I've spent the most amount of time in that world and that is also the subject of my PhD. And in terms of what I'd like to see in 10 years time with respect to that is, one, we should have a deep, nuanced understanding of what forced marriage is and how it happens. And that experience should be informing all of our responses and our interventions. And that includes how we partner with communities around social and behaviour change, how we engage with law enforcement when those really high-level, high-risk cases, and law enforcement are equipped to deal with those cases in a way that they're not currently

equipped to deal with right now. I'd also like to see opportunities for women and girls who are facing forced marriage be opened up, which includes how we work with their families, to support them, to stay in their family if that's what they want and if that's what, you know, is going to take for people to feel safe. What does it take for people to feel safe? Currently, people are very restricted in terms of their options. And it is stay at home and get married or leave your family and rebuild an entirely new life. I mean, both of those things are irreconcilable choices in most situations. So a spectrum of support that actually provides people what they need, when they need it and how they need it should be the vision for the next 10 years.

Mm-hmm. And is there any type of social work or field of social work that you've been really curious about and would love to try next? Probably not, if I'm really honest. I feel fairly comfortable and fairly grounded in the area that I'm in. And I've built off of that over the years that I've been doing it. And some days, you know, know, I absolutely always come back to my social work routes, but there are some days where the work that I'm doing, I'm not sure that a traditional social worker would see that or understand that to be social work. My PhD is actually in criminology. So now I've traversed like social work law and criminology, which is a really interesting mix. So to be fair, I don't think there is other fields of social work that I am interested in doing.

But at the same time, if there was an opportunity and, you know, depending on what was happening in my life at the time, as I said, I'm a yes person when it comes to my career. So I'd probably give it a go. But in terms of forecasting that, I feel pretty good where I am. Is there any type of social work that you've never had any interest in? Yes. there's almost always one.

Yeah, look, there's probably quite a few for me, to be honest, because as I said, like, I didn't really know what I wanted to do when I started social work and I've kind of been led by opportunities and experiences. But I think mostly because I've lived with somebody who's worked in child protection for 20 plus years, I'm not real keen on that. The work I do in fourth marriage intersex with child protection, but the idea of kind of doing day in and day out child protection style casework, probably not for me,

not super keen on health, and that's mostly because I'm pretty squeamish. So being in that like a health environment is probably not ideal. I don't want to sound like I'm super closed off, but I feel like there's a lot that I just, I probably couldn't do proper therapeutic counseling either, to be honest. I get too frustrated. My experience when I was doing, I was running a peer support program for victims of

forced marriage and I had survivors of forced marriage working in partnership with me around young people who were facing forced marriage and they were, you know, ambivalent teenagers. And I did that work very intensively for, about, I want to say, 12 months. And I was so frustrated because, again, it was the system that wasn't allowing that young person to have what they needed. And so what that translated into for me was like incredible impatience because I really, really wanted to help that person. I really, really wanted them to have what it is they needed. And I couldn't reconcile for myself how to

help them cope with this really crappy system. I was like, the system is so wrong that I don't want to normalise it or make that person feel like that's something that they should have to work within. So that therapeutic side of work, I think I'm too impatient and frustrated with the systems, you know, and I feel conflicted about trying to help somebody learn how to cope. Like, get it. I know that that's reality. And it's really important in those situations that people learn how to navigate systems because we all live in them.

But I think that's where my kind of social policy, social justice advocate, overrides that other part that says, you know, this is reality, Laura. Somebody should be supported to cope with that until it changes. but I get too impatient and I get too passionate about, nope, it's not right. It needs to change, you know, so I feel like that's where then I need to channel my energy. Yeah, you can never be too passionate. But I get what you're saying. It makes total sense that you want to be working with the policy and with the system

rather than just going along with it. And if you're in that therapeutic space, you just don't have any time necessarily to feed that back and to do something about it. No, absolutely not. And if I can assist, I guess, in some of that translation work as well so that, you know, practitioners who are seeing this every day and don't have the time or it's well out of their scope to be able to do anything with those frustrations,

then I can help, you know, like I can help translate some of that direct experience into what it would mean for it to be different. and having done that direct practice work myself, I often feel like I'm fairly unique in that regard in terms of social policy people who may never have done direct practice so I can straddle both of those worlds. And if I can help and be a resource to practitioners

to level up some of that stuff that they're dealing with every day, then I am more than happy to be of service. Sure. So if you're about a year through your PhD, I imagine you're working on developing and articulating your research questions and your methodology. Where are you up to at the moment? That has been done. So the first year, actually, of the PhD is doing all of that,

articulating the research questions, looking at the methodology, conceptual framework, and it's sort of divided up so you do most, like kind of check-in milestones. And so I had my first check-in milestone in December, which is called confirmation. So they essentially confirm the project and, you know, give you the green tick of approval to progress. So the stage that I'm in right now is data collection. For I'm interviewing young women who have experienced or been faced with a forced marriage, field work in the time of a pandemic presents a unique set of challenges, particularly in terms of identifying people who might be willing to participate in the study

and then also people's confidence with doing that over the phone or, you know, online rather than face-to-face. So there's been, you know, a few creative adjustments that have had to occur. But, you know, the study is essentially very open at this point in time for anybody who's interested, who may, you know, have faced forced marriage or, you know, being threatened with that. I'm in the active story collection phase of that project. And how many participants are you hoping to get? Look, and the ideal number would be, you know, between 30 and 40 to be able to really trend. And one of the things that I'm really wanting to understand is actually the context in which

forced marriage occurs in Australia to build the evidence base, which informs how we intervene. So the questions are loosely around describing and understanding the context in which forced marriage takes place and then how people themselves. So the study is for young women aged 18 to 30 and how they themselves navigate their own situations and what their experiences of support have been in order to kind of paint a picture about what people are really experiencing, what they're really navigating. and then looking at what the system looks like in Australia and whether or not that's reflective of that experience and then what people themselves, you know, suggest is, you know, what would have been helpful or what the evidence, I guess, suggests

around what could be helpful in that regard. And, you know, it's a PhD in criminology, so it is also looking at the kind of nexus of the criminal justice system with a complex social issue. Given that overlap, I'm curious to know what the lens or the framework is that you're hoping to use in analysing the data that does come back. Yeah, yep. So I've got a couple of different conceptual frameworks that I'm looking at at the moment.

One of them is the framework of coercive control. That essentially is a social work theory. It's written by a social worker Evan Stark. He's a US-based social worker, and he wrote this framework effectively around clinical intervention. And over the years, it has been adapted into a range of different formats, but most recently it has been made a criminal offence in the United Kingdom. So the offence of coercive control is now a crime in the UK, and there's all kinds of discussion and analysis about the usefulness of criminalising coercive control,

including what are the non-physical forms of violence that may already be legislated, but also balanced against an argument of how well does the criminal justice system serve women who experience violence and that well documented actually that women do not experience what they intend to experience or do not get the outcomes they seek to achieve through the criminal justice system. So that kind of framework is looking at what does it offer or lend to an understanding of forced marriage? The other is around gendered violence and the intersection of culture, family and community. And that essentially conceptualising culture and gender violence and what does that mean

and what does that look like in the context of forced marriage. And then the last one is really looking at what the framework of adolescent family violence offers work like this. Adolescent family violence refers to essentially, you know, adolescents who are violent in their home. The dynamic is similar in the sense that when the adolescent is violent, parents are very reticent to report their own children to police. And as a result of that, you know, they offer by themselves in increasing situations of risk of violence. In forced marriage situations, it's sort of flipped where young people are experiencing coercion and violence from their parents, but they don't actually want their parents to get in trouble, go to jail, or experience negative implications of the law. So really looking at what that work and that lens can offer in terms of supportive interventions or really just understanding what young people themselves,

are navigating in the context of forced marriage, given it's complex and multidimensional and has a whole range of different impacts on families and communities. Okay. If people want to know more about the research that you're doing or social work in this field, where would you direct them? Is there any good reading or good media? Oh, look, there's great reading.

In terms of my research itself, there is a website for the research. it's forcemarriage research.com and that, you know, talks about the project and also, you know, the recruitment at the moment for participants. In terms of social work and social policy, there is some reading, but it might be better if I send you some links. Yep. The other thing is I can send along a link that shows all the social policy work that were done, for example, on forced marriage or other kinds of policy submissions at Good Shepherd. and that shows you a practical application of what this work looks like every day,

so I can send along some of that as well. That would be lovely, and I can include it in the show notes. Great. Is there any really good media out there in terms of how this field is portrayed, movies, shows anything good that you've seen, and also anything really bad? Like, where does it just completely get it wrong? Yeah, look, to be honest, I kind of avoid it.

So I'm not the best person, I guess, to ask that question. Too close. My TV viewing is pretty lowbrow because I'm so exhausted often by the heartache of the world that I try and steer a bit clear of that. So I'm not a great person to ask in terms of what media or films or other things have to suggest. One thing I would say is that often the portrayal of just, child protection in films and shows kind of greats on me, sort of portrayed as these fairly ruthless people that go in and take kids.

And we all know it's really, really complicated. And often certain things wouldn't happen in real life. So I think sometimes I get a bit frustrated when there's sort of, you know, interventions with child protection. I've not seen anything that does that well, but then again, you know, as I said, I'm not a very good example because I really do try and steer clear of that. I'm just looking at my bookshelf right now thinking reading fiction is actually my self-care challenge. Just separating. Totally separating. And that's been something that I've done

in like the last two years is it's a real reward for me to read fiction. So I definitely try and prioritize that, and I would say the same for my television watching. So, sorry. I'm no good to you on that one. That's all good. My husband told me when we first met, I said I'm a social worker, and he said, the only time I've heard about a social worker or what a social worker does is in Lilo and Stitch, and that's bubbles. And you're not a big black man taking away so much. So yeah, it's just what people are exposed to and people have these ideas that this is all we do. So Yeah, and I think even sometimes when I say I'm a social worker, people might be a bit surprised because I don't do conventional social work in that way. I mean, what guides me and, you know, the theories that I use at the heart of the decisions that I make essentially do stem back to that perspective and that sort of disciplinary training.

But I think in everyday world, unless I sort of identify it, people may not assume. very readily that that's what I do. Yeah. Do people assume that those jobs are done by someone other than a social worker then? I think so, absolutely. I think there are disciplines, you know, people are trained to do social policy work. You know, there are even just generalist degrees like arts degrees, people will go into social policy from there, gender studies. There's actually a degree at UTS called Social Inquiry and it sits within the communications field. So I think there is social policy degrees, if I'm not mistaken. It's in social science.

So yes, it's a real mixed discipline in terms of, you know, when you go and work in social policy, what kind of background you have, be it communications or social science related. And, you know, that's not to say that I'm not social workers doing social policy work. They totally are. but I find sometimes people have just done social policy. It's very unique to find a practitioner and a social policy person together. Yeah, sure.

But I guess you would be lending something extra to that role as a social worker with your theoretical background, with your experience. All the time. And I also find myself in my current role adopting projects that other would not be undertaken necessarily by somebody else in this role. So I'm currently in the process of launching the practice framework for Good Shepherd. I mean, that is not a typical social policy thing to do. And I also have developed, and we're piloting for the first year, the impact framework.

And that is a really unique piece of work that has really required policy and practice to come together in order to measure impact of what it is that we do in our programs. So, you know, I've approached that probably in a different way to how other people would have approached that simply because I'm combining those two worlds. I realise we haven't spoken at all about the Winston Churchill Fellowship. Oh, yeah, sure. Which is for people who don't know, and you can probably say this more articulately, but it's essentially an opportunity to travel overseas to research a topic or an issue that can't be explored locally

or maybe you've explored all other avenues locally and you want to see what the international perspective is like. Yeah. So what were you doing in that space? Well, you will be unsurprised to hear that I did mine on forced marriage and essentially I traveled to seven countries and I was looking at innovative and best practice. ways to respond to forced marriage. So I went to Sri Lanka, Kenya, the UK, Canada, USA and Denmark. Wow. And I was looking at all kinds of different things, both programmatic interventions,

policy interventions, law. And the Churchill Fellowship, honestly, has been one of the best things I have ever done. And it helped me, when people asked me, you know, what was the greatest thing about it? one, I would say I was totally prepared for all of the professional growth and I was like thirsty for all of the knowledge and what I wasn't prepared for was all of the personal growth of that. So I travelled, I travelled for nearly three months alone. And, you know, of course I was meeting with people. During that time, I interviewed 47 people in seven different countries.

And so I was with people and, you know, in some places where I had four. friends are living abroad or whatever, I would meet up with people. But for the most part, I did this big global trip alone. And what that does to somebody is quite unique and something that I guess I hadn't really prepared for, but something when I look back on it was, you know, truly transformational on both a personal and a professional level in that I really had a lot of time to think and reflect about, you know, what I was learning, where I was in the world, what contribution I could make, and what I need it within myself to make that contribution. And it's an incredible opportunity because it's non-academic study essentially.

And so you go and you explore and you meet people where they're at and you listen to their own experiences and then you build them into what it is that you think we could do to improve the situation for people, you know, back at home. And it was really a launch pad actually for me when I got back to Australia to really put some legs on some of the work that I'd been doing on forced marriage. The findings of that report were the impetus for approaching the Labor government around shaping their policy platform on forced marriage. And they adopted all the recommendations of that report in full and use that, you know, to help shape their policy, which was pretty incredible.

Yeah. And the connections that you make by doing that and having an international network of people that do this work is really very unique and really awesome. And so if anything, I give the Winston Churchill Memorial Trust a huge plug and really, really do encourage anybody who's even thinking about it to. apply. There's no doubt that it's a competitive process, but even just the application process proved to me that I could do things that I didn't ever really think that I could do. And I am really open also to anybody who wants to contact me to talk about that experience and to support

them through the application process as well. I usually support at least two people every year through the application process since getting my Churchill Fellowship. And there is actually a Churchill Fellow social work community of practice as well. So that's been a really nice group of people to be connected to, to learn and understand. So I can send you a link to the social work community of practice within the Churchill Fellows if nothing else. So people can read about other social workers as well. But then there's also, you know, some details on there if anyone is.

wanting to reach out and connect to that particular community. There's a way to do that there as well. What an amazing experience and program to be part of. Amazing. I would recommend it to anybody. It was amazing. Is there anything else before we finish up that you'd like to mention or say to social workers or potential social workers about what you do? Look, choose social policy. It doesn't sound very exciting at the outset, But what I would say is that social workers have an incredible skill set to offer social policy and indirect practice. And, you know, when you learn about micro-macro social work, you know, and most people are pretty excited about getting into the field and working with people.

And I totally get that. But I guess I'd just make a big old plug for indirect social work because systems have to change in order for people's lives to be better. We need more people who are committed. to similar values to be doing that work. So again, if anybody wants some enthusiasm around social policy, come and find me. Thank you.

It's been so incredibly inspiring to hear your story and all the work that you're doing and have done. Thank you so much for coming on to the podcast. I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me. Thanks for joining me this week. If you would like to continue this discussion or ask anything of either myself or Laura, please visit my anchor page at anchor.fm slash social work spotlight.

You can find me on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter, or you can email SW Spotlight Podcast at gmail.com. I'd love to hear from you. Please also let me know if there is a particular topic you'd like discussed, or if you or another person you know would like to be featured on the show. Next episode's guest is Matt, whose work has been based predominantly in youth family and residential work. He has also worked extensively managing foster care and kinship care programs and is currently managing a family support agency encompassing child and family services, early intervention support

and assistance for families of children with disabilities. I release a new episode every two weeks. Please subscribe to my podcast so you will notify when this next episode is a See you next time.