Social Work Spotlight - Episode 124: Jordan

Episode Date: December 6, 2024

In this episode I speak with Jordan, an accredited social worker and clinical supervisor. Jordan has worked in a variety of fields such as service coordination, aged care, mental health, drug and alcohol, and currently works within schools. Jordan is passionate about connecting with others and hearing their stories.Links to resources mentioned in this week’s episode:NAPCAN’s Love Bites program - https://www.napcan.org.au/Programs/love-bites/Lifeline’s DV Alert workshops - https://dvalert.org.au/Emerging Minds mental health and wellbeing training - https://emergingminds.com.au/Orygen youth mental health training - https://orygen.org.au/trainingPrecious movie - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0929632/The Edge of Seventeen movie - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1878870/?lang=enDetention Exit Community Outreach (DECO) program - https://www.wellways.org/our-services/detention-exit-community-outreach/This episode's transcript can be viewed here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jPkeM-lMn08IsU3xHhybIt3HfbMibF4506iaC8LL8_o/edit?usp=sharingThanks to Kevin Macleod of incompetech.com for our theme music.

I begin today by acknowledging the Gadigal people of the Eura Nation, traditional custodians of the land on which I record this podcast, and pay my respects to their elders past and present. I extend that respect to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people listening today. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples have an intrinsic connection to this land and have cared for country for over 60,000 years, with their way of life having been devastated by colonisation. Hi and welcome to Social Work Spotlight where I showcase different areas of the profession each episode.

I'm your host, Yasmin Lupus, and today's guest is Jordan, an accredited social worker and clinical supervisor. Jordan has worked in a variety of fields such as service coordination, aged care, mental health, drug and alcohol, and currently works within schools. Jordan is passionate about connecting with others and hearing their stories. Thank you so much. Jordan, lovely to meet with you today and thank you for taking the time out and having a chat about your experience so far. No worries. Thank you so much for having me on your show. Yeah, I'd love to know what got you into the profession. When did you start in social work and why? Oh, see, this is a very interesting question that seems so straightforward, but it's not,

because it challenges my identity as a social worker, as it was never my dream to be a social worker and I never thought much of social work. But it's a career that I've been so happy with that I made that choice and that I stuck out my dream of wanting to help others because it's paid dividends, not just in how I feel about my work, but in the outcomes I've seen for people that I've worked with.

So leaving school at 18 of a great ATA, I wanted to be a psychologist, as all 18-year-olds want to be. And I did not enjoy uni at all. and I thought I would enjoy uni and I was very disappointed at how different uni was to year 12. I flourished in school and my year 12 teacher was like yep, uni you'll be fine, it'll be easy, you've got this and it wasn't my experience. And I almost dropped out towards the end of my Bachelor in Science,

which specialises in psychology. But during my undergraduate, I fell in love with sociology and anthropology and not wanting my degree, degree to go to waste I stumbled across social work and I'm so happy that I decided to give uni another crack and I ended up doing my masters of social work at a different university and loved every minute of it and I haven't looked back since. Yeah and it's hard to say whether it was that particular uni or if it was just the way that it was taught with those specific subjects but yeah obviously you've been guided in the path that fits well for you. Yeah, I think it was evident in my grades that I was barely passing my psych units, which were a very medical model, where I was getting high distinctions in sociology and anthropology, which aren't too different to social work.

So I think there was something guiding me there going, hey, I think you should look in this direction, because they were any electives. So I just chose them on a whim as something fun to do around my main subjects. and yeah, here we are all these years later. I don't know if it was all that obvious when I signed up to do psychology, how much maths was involved. And having done three unit maths in high school, I thought, yeah, I've got this. Get to third year psych stats. And I was just over my head, just had no ideas.

I don't know if psych stats did your head in, but I found the developmental and the social stuff really interesting. Yeah, look, I was devastated when I realized I had to do statistics. I fought year 12, that was the end of maths. And I almost didn't do maths in years 11 and 12, but my parents made me and I'm so glad they did because, yeah, I was devastated that I had to keep doing maths. But so grateful now for what that course has given me

in being able to look at journal articles and decipher the information and the evidence. So I am grateful for it, but it was not a good time. The subject I found the hardest was actually all about the ins and outs of the brain. So while I can tell you amazing things about the amygdala and the prefrontal cortex, I can't tell you about all the veins and arteries and little tiny bits of the brain and that course was probably the hardest course that I've ever had to do. And it definitely dampened my view of psychology. That and the uni I went to focused on dyslexia and driving under the influence.

And I wanted to help people. I didn't really want to do research. do research and I picked a research heavy uni. So I think that made a big difference where the uni I did social work at was very practical based. So it was really looking at how the degree would actually function as a career. And I think that spoke to me on other levels as well because I could picture what we're learning in class and I could see how it was going to work in practice. Yeah. I really loved doing anthropology as well. That was one of my I guess minors. before I actually had to decide, no, you need to go more the path of sociology and psychology.

And I think what stood out most for me is just the diversity. And I still probably use quite a lot of that in terms of the sociopolitical things and how that was translated to more modern or Australian contexts. Do you remember much about the anthropology undergrad? Oh, I remember bits and pieces. I think it helped me understand how to view different perspectives. and how to translate that into what we're seeing in modern Australia and looking at our histories and how our histories have a really big role on our current day and where we're heading in the future.

And I suppose that inner generational trauma stuff really came up in anthropology. But it was my sociology stuff that's probably stuck with me a little bit more, particularly this amazing unit with this really amazing, older, white Caucasian male, professor, professor that taught a course on gender and it looked at gender diversity and this was probably my first real step into gender diversity and he was not the professor you thought would take a class like that but it stuck so much with me seeing everything as a spectrum and not putting things in black and white boxes where then you'd go to a psych class and being very medical model very clinical we went back to boxes and I was

like no spectrums let's go back to all the grades please let's stay over here. We can paint different pictures and we can see the individual and it's really holistic. Yeah, that's obviously speaking to the social worker and you of enjoying that murky middle instead of a very black and white approach to things. So obviously fast forward to social work and that really resonated with you. Yeah. What were your placements? What were your introductions to social work? Oh, so I had an interesting first placement and because of the my first placement, I do not recommend to people who ask me about whether they should do their placements at their current place of employment. I strongly recommend not doing that. It wasn't a bad

placement. It was very successful. We did the 500 hours, everything got ticked off. There was a social worker at the place I was working at the time who was originally from overseas. So she brought this really diverse lens to my social work education. But, But it was underscored by manipulation and feeling stressed about the different roles and how I'm going to please everybody. So I think if I could go back in time, I would have either chosen not to get paid because I also got paid during that placement because I stayed in my place of employment or I would go somewhere completely different. But at the same time, I'm also grateful for that experience as well because I think it made me stronger in setting boundaries and moving forward. as well. And how about your second one? The second one, it was also interesting. I did it at an organisation that I had worked with but not for and it was a research project. So we were looking

at how their community program that worked with recently released people from prison and how that program was helping people, I suppose, transferred back into community. We hit some hurdles with ethics, and delays there, but I want to say I wrote an amazing literature review on working in the detention exit program, DECO, as it was called. It also offered me some other insights in that that company had other programs and I got to spend a few days in a youth house working with their youth coordinators and it was interesting to see what it was like to be in a youth home. This was a home that had 17 and 18 year olds in it so it was a little bit older. It was interesting to see how it was run,

but also how restrictive it was as well, particularly when you consider that they're 17 and 18. And were you still working at the former employment while you're doing all this? No, I quit two weeks before my last placement. So I worked right up until two weeks beforehand, or because I grew up in Canberra. I've started my career in Canberra and we decided my husband and I that after my second placement that we were moving away from Canberra so I quit my job which was also such a risky thing to do put myself in placement and then next thing I know I'm in rural New South Wales and yeah haven't looked back since wow and you're in orange right now yep so I'm now in orange so I had originally moved to Bathurst I actually got a job working for

the company I did my second placement at but their Baffist office did three months there. There was some contract issues which were disappointing and frustrating but I stood my ground and decided to leave and ended up in what I would say was the start of my actual career as a counsellor. So whilst I identify as a social worker, me as a social worker is doing counselling and my job at that point then put me on the path to where I am now. My previous jobs provided me with an amazing foundation in order to be able to get to where I am. And I'm grateful for them, but this job that I got in Orange, which is why we then moved to Orange, it really started everything.

And was the counseling role in sort of inpatient mental health, outpatient, private? Yep. So it was as a community drug and alcohol worker for a non-hmm. not-for-profit. So we would meet with people either in their homes or in public places or they would come to our offices and it was providing, I suppose, I don't want to say basic or entry level, but it was kind of that first point of call for wanting change from addiction. So sitting with a person, learning their story, connecting with them and working out what their goals were, what was bringing them to us to want support and then how could we help them get

there. Sometimes that led to them going into a detox facility and then onto rehab. Sometimes it wasn't about abstinence or quitting. It was just about finding control. A lot of trauma work in there, but our focus was how do we help someone work out where they are at with their substance use? And yeah, it was such a fascinating job. And sometimes I wonder if I could go back there and just do it all again and maybe slow things down a little bit. I've moved quickly. I want to say up my career path and sometimes I feel like in order to get where I am, I've sacrificed time at some of these stops along the way because that job, it was amazing and I loved every minute of it, but part of me always wanted more, which then led to me going to work at our rehab as a mental health clinician.

and whilst I love the work of clients, I couldn't handle the environment around the work with the other staff, with the policies, and then that's what then led me to school counselling. Was it difficult moving from a large city to a very small town where I imagine working in alcohol and other drugs can be quite challenging just from a everyone knows everyone's business kind of perspective. Yes and no. The benefit for me was because no one knew me, there was some more openness from clients and more willingness to engage with me because no one knew me. Who's Jordan? No one knows who Jordan is. So it provided them with, I suppose, that extra level of privacy, but it also provided me with some privacy as well in that I didn't have

backstories going into these people's lives and they didn't have backstories about me either. So it was we're meeting on equal ground, but it made it harder with colleagues. So whilst it made it easier to work with clients, it made it a lot harder to connect with colleagues because they've got longstanding connections of other people from this region. So people I count as my friends are also people who weren't from here, which made that really tricky, when if you're working, for instance, in the rehab, everyone had known each other for years, and I was a new kid on the block, and that made it so much harder to, I suppose, survive in that environment. Sure. I have interviewed one of the wonderful people up at UNE, who was part of the

social work in school's development, and just such fascinating work, and I think it's wonderful that social work has been recognised in schools and the important role that we can play. How did that role come about for you because it is quite a different experience to what you'd had before. Yeah. So I had originally interviewed for a role with my current organisation. So they're a Catholic organisation. So we work within Catholic schools across a really wide area of New South Wales. I'd interviewed just before I got the drug and drug and alcohol and they said, come back when you've got more experience. And I always challenge interviewers when they ask that question, and like, what do you mean more experience?

Like, what experience you're looking for? And they gave me an answer that always frustrates me, which is go and volunteer at Lifeline. Now, I've got nothing against Lifeline. I think it's an amazing service, and volunteering there can be really beneficial. The problem is when you're trying to start out in your career, you're often going for full-time jobs,

but you're also trying to balance yourself care. How do we fit volunteering at Lifeline, which has requirements on its volunteering, number of hours, a set number of training hours as well, becomes really hard to balance and be able to do all of that. In the end, I didn't need to go looking for volunteer options. I was able to get the job in drug and alcohol. And then a year and a half, two years later, another job came up in those same schools, went for it and got the job. So for me, it was right job wrong time and then became right job right time and I don't think I would have been as successful

in an educational facility if I hadn't first experienced working with adults in a rehab. The learnings you take out of working with adults in a rehab really sets you up for being out to manage the challenges of an educational facility because working in either rehab or education is so different to working in a community setting. I mean, I'm slightly biased. I'm always going to say yes because I love rehab and that's where I've worked for the last 15 years. But probably more than that actually now. I love taking students and I work in physical rehab rather than drug and alcohol rehab. But a lot of the principles are the same in terms of you've got this crisis. How do we deal with the immediate fallout? Then how do we help build capacity and strategies around hopefully supporting someone to then integrate back into community and look at goal setting? I always love having students because I do think, as you are saying, it's a wonderful learning ground. It's a wonderful opportunity to figure out who are my stakeholders, where are the other services that I need to be working with? What are the other allied health professionals that are

going to help us on this journey because rehab is never a single kind of professional type work. So yeah, absolutely right. You would have learned so much that then translated into the school context. Yeah. And similar to the rehab in a school context, Your clients are there not quite 24-7 because the school's not open 24-7, but they're there the whole time you're there. We're in a community setting. You're either coming and going from other people's homes or they're coming and going from your office. So there's an ability to be able to switch off when you're working in community, whether it's between sessions, doing your case note and chatting to a colleague while having a cup of tea or when you're driving to the next job. But at the rehab and at the schools, clients can knock on your door at any second.

And it's a lot more being on all the time. So you don't quite get the same opportunity to switch off, decompress before the next client pops in, particularly because you never know who's going to come around the corner and knock on your door next. So it's very different to community in the fact that you have to be ready to go at any moment's notice. But I also love that challenge about it. It keeps you on your toes. It keeps it fresh and it keeps it exciting, which stops. becoming boring as well.

It sounds like that meme though that has, you know, a social worker's brain is like a computer that has a hundred tabs open at once. You just have to know everything about everyone that could potentially walk through the door, right? Yeah. So having a good understanding of each year group, of the different teachers that are in each year group, and really keeping your, I first finger to the pulse of what's happening within the school, but also the broader school community, which is slightly hard

in a larger town like Orange, but I've done some work at smaller schools in very small towns and you get much more of a feel for what's happening in the community because, as you said before, everybody knows everybody and everybody knows what's happening in everybody's houses, which adds an element of support because you know what to expect or what you can prepare for, but it also doesn't help you to not necessarily remain unbiased. You're going to make judgments because we're human. And depending where you've heard the news, that's going to have an interaction on how you take that news in and perceive it, which adds a challenge to it. Because also, you wouldn't have that in a community setting. You wouldn't have teachers telling you what's happening

three doors down from their house over a cup of tea at lunchtime because they're not there in a community setting. Yeah. And especially as a newly still developing social worker, I imagine, the desire to say yes and the difficulty saying no to things come back later would have been really difficult. How did you navigate that? And how did you look after yourself in that space? Funny enough, one of my earliest bosses gave me a button that says no in 10 different ways. Oh, I have that at work. Yeah, made sure I pressed it at least once a day to learn what the word was. Yeah.

I don't think I've ever worked out how to say no. I say no but I give options, which makes me feel better because I'm very much a yes person. And through my schooling and through university, it was always observations coming back from people in my life going, you've always got a lot on. You're like, how are you doing it or how are you managing it all? I suppose I like being busy and I like being needed. Like, who doesn't? So saying no is so hard, but it's setting boundaries.

And it's how do we say no that works for us? So when I say no to people, I like to say no and give options. So in my mind, I see it as saying no, but leaving the door open for a conversation down the road, maybe when I can say yes. So that might look like going, no, I can't do that right now, but I could do it later, or no, I can't help with that. But have you tried these people or have you looked at this website? Or have you asked these questions to work out whether or not you actually need to be here?

today. So it's always no with a but, with a door opening, with an option. I'm still working on a hard no. We haven't quite got there yet. That button's probably not working very well for me. I think that process though works best when there's a culture of trust. So if the people coming to you for support, trust your integrity that you're not saying no just for the sake of it or because you don't want to work with them, it's no, I hear you. Again, it, here is when I'll get to it, which is exactly what you're doing. You're not saying someone else is more important. You're saying, I just have these other things to do and then I'll come back to you and you're giving them a time frame, which I think is really respectful.

Yeah. My current manager introduced me to a saying to have in my reflections when requests are made to me is if I say yes to this, what am I saying no to? And that helps put things in perspective of prioritisation and triaging. If I say yes to continuing service with a client that particular maybe is at that point where they need external support or they're not really engaging or at the end point, but they're wanting to drag it out. If I keep saying yes to them, does that mean I'm saying no to these new referrals that may be needing me more right now? So it puts things into perspective, which helps with the saying no. Yeah, I wish I had that advice when I was a younger social worker.

But I think, you know, you hear it when you're ready to hear it as well. Yeah, and that's the other thing. I made a note coming into today of wanting to talk about self-care because we hear it a lot in our degrees. Self-care, self-care, self-care. And you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll eat lunch away from my desk and I'll go do these other things and look after myself. But it's not until you actually start working that you really, really, really. realise the value of self-care and what self-care actually means. But I think it comes back to what you said about being ready to hear it. When we're students and when we're looking at starting

our careers, we're full of energy and we're full of passion and we just want to go, go, go, go, go. And it's not until things start to fall into place that we realize that it's okay to stop and smell the roses every once in a while and that we really need to do that. Otherwise, we've got to burnout. Here's a bit of a, I guess, a left of centre question then, because I'm thinking back to when you said you wished you'd had time to really sink your teeth into some of these roles before moving on to the next one. How do you, in the moment, how do you do that without feeling like you've left a part of your potential behind? It's hard. I particularly feel like I'm in a leadership role right now that I sacrificed being a counsellor on the ground at schools in order to

be a team leader. So I don't think I've worked out yet how not to leave bits of myself behind whilst going on these other journeys. I know though that if I hadn't gone for my current job, if I hadn't tried, I would have sat with a lot more regret than I sit with now. So I think it's about asking ourselves not just what's important for us career-wise, but what's important for us personally. So for me, I always have navigated towards leadership naturally without sometimes even asking to be in leadership, whether it's playing sport or, you know, groups with friends, you know, who's going to be the person that organises the group, it's generally me. So I've always kind of naturally fallen into these roles. And I think personally it would have had a bigger

impact of me than it has professionally if I hadn't gone for the opportunity. And there's always a sense of if I don't try now when will I get the next chance because it gets tinier at the top. There's less options. So if I don't go for this job right now and someone else gets it and it's one of my other peers and I roughly know their ages and how much longer they've got working, I've probably not got another opportunity at this particular organisation, which I think is one of the challenges in social work is how do we provide scope for practice development even though there's not many places at the top to move into until other people retire or move on. I'm not entirely sure that answered your question though. No, it does 100%. I'm just thinking I'm a big believer in having

opportunities like you're saying of acting up and being able to try before you buy because so often the social workers that I speak to who are in leadership positions just found themselves in those positions because someone stepped back. They're the next logical person. Someone has said, hey, we think that you'd do a good job here and they just haven't had the opportunity to test the waters too. I did see that you've done additional training in leadership and management, which is wonderful, be able to get the background and the theory and the how do we do what we do and how do we make sure that we've got enough support to do what we do and not feel like we're missing out professionally because we're not on the ground.

I think that's a big thing. I love leadership. I don't like management. So last week I was acting team leader and I was just so happy to hand the reins back this week because I love my colleagues, but you see gaps, you see cracks and you think, okay, this is not how I would do things. And that's why perhaps I wouldn't be the best leader because I like things done a certain way. So what are you finding as you're working more in the leadership space? I definitely feel that there's a few things about it that I love. So

going back to connection, which is something I always come back to as a social worker, connections, I do it, connections, what I want to get out of it. And connections, my philosophy, not only the social worker, but as a counsellor and as a person. So I love being able to connect with my colleagues, my peers, across all the different areas that they're working. But I suppose the biggest drawback is the restrictions because we're not at the top of the food chain. Even if we were, there's funding restrictions, there's time. Time's always going to be an enemy. time in the day to achieve everything we want to achieve.

And then there's admin and oh, I, it's probably the thing that gets it down the most because it's like doing a case note, but it's a case note that carries a lot more weight to it because it's not going to impact the worker and then their client, if it brought an issue to me, or it's going to have other flow on effects to other things which ultimately will affect clients. So there's a lot of weight to that admin stuff. And I think it's, takes away from that leadership stuff because the admin I feel sits under that management banner. It's that I have to do it in order to lead, but really I just want to be over here helping people and walking alongside them. But no, I've got to go over here and look at the budget

and I've got to look at the cracks and I've got to work out, do we have enough money and time to fill in some of those cracks. Oh, but wait, I need to go back over here because this person's experiencing compassion fatigue. How do I sit with them? How do I support them? And yeah, it's that divide across the two that can be very tricky to manage. Yeah. Have you managed to keep a caseload while you're doing the leadership? I did for the first 12 months. However, after 12 months, I gave up my caseload for balance for myself. My professional self hates that I gave it up because I love counselling, particularly school counselling, but I needed to give it up so that I didn't burn out because it was that coming back to that if I say yes to this what am I saying no to if I

kept saying yes to a caseload I was saying no to supporting the social workers that were under me and the social workers that I want to achieve greatness so how do I support them to achieve greatness if I'm not even there to help them because I'm too busy with my own caseload so I had to give it up ultimately I think you can find balance depending on the job and what supports they're going to offer in finding balance. I know there's a lot of people who advocate for keeping a caseload because it keeps your skills fresh. It keeps you on the ground and seeing what's happening there. But at the same time, at what cost does that come to? And for me, it was my burnout and it was pulling me away from the people that I really need to put first.

Yeah. And what is your team makeup? It sounds like you've got some social workers, but maybe other, professionals? Social workers, councils and psychologists. And you're providing supervision to them as well, yeah? I do. So whilst I gave up my direct counselling caseload, I've picked up clinical supervision. So I provide my team with clinical supervision and I'm trying to get my own practice of clinical supervision up and running as well because I am finding it's professional counselling in a sense and it's filling my bucket of wanting to help people and do counselling without also taking away the energy I have to be a team leader as well. So it's filling that gap at the moment and it might be somewhere that I go more into in the future. Right now I'm just trying

to find my current balance with the jobs that I've got. But it's been a nice job to have there so that I don't feel like I've abandoned counselling altogether. Yeah. How do you find then the approach might be different if you're supervising counsellors or psychologists as opposed to social workers? Oh, I actually don't think I approach them differently. I go in as me and I'm very open that I'm a social worker that's got case management experience and counselling experience,

but ultimately I am a social worker and this is my identity as a social worker. and then I connect with that person as who they are. So it doesn't matter if they're a psychologist or a counselor or another social worker, they're going to come in with their needs and it's my job as the clinical supervisor at that point to work out what those needs are with them and how I can assist in filling that gap. And sometimes I'm going to be the right person and sometimes maybe they're going to be looking for something that I can't provide and that's okay because that's the same in counselling. We're not always going to click with the first counsellor or therapists whose door we walk into.

Even though they might be amazing, we need to find that person we connect to that we click with. So I don't know if I necessarily have any differences. I suppose it's how I'm authentic to me and how do I share that when I connect with the person that's coming in for supervision. Yeah. You mentioned multiple jobs. So you've got you've got the school, you've got the leadership. you're also working at a university from what I could see and you're also mentoring through the ASW. Tell me a little about those roles and then help me try to understand how you manage to do

everything. Yeah. So, okay, so you sent me through a question which I think will answer this perfectly, which is where are you currently working and what does a typical day look like? And I think there is no typical day. There is no typical day. But Tuesday to Thursday, so three days a week, I work as a team leader. So a typical day there is lots of meetings, whether it's clinical supervision, check-ins, leadership meetings, a lot of emails and it's supporting counsellors through managing crises in their school communities or their own crises, whether it's compassion fatigue or something else. Mondays, Fridays and weekends is where I set my own schedule. Well, I'm attempting to set my own schedule. It's always a work and progress, but I think I've got it fairly sorted out.

So I spend a little bit of time in the mornings for an hour or two looking at what I want to do in my own practice. So whether that's doing up some new posters on Canva that I then share on LinkedIn, I'm looking at trying to roll out a short series of videos called 60 Seconds of Jordan, where I talk about small elements of counselling or social work, whether it's like a stress bucket or the importance of clinical supervision. So I've got those ideas brewing in my head, but then I'm also enjoying the flexibility of working casually through uni where I do group supervision as well as supervision for students on their counselling placements, and I mark a lot of papers. So I just spent the last days marking 24

essays, and I have two weeks off before the next lot of 24 essays come in. And it's been invigorating for my passion for social work because it's taken me back to when I was a student and it's making me recall the things that I was learning when I was a student and how they work into practice. I was also giving me a chance to share what I've learnt on my journey. And I've found that I'm quite passionate about the work I do for the uni, although it is a lot of reading at times. Do the staff that you're supporting have the opportunity to supervise? students either social work or community services? We've tried so in the three

years that I've been a part of the team we've been able to have two students both social workers come on board for placements one of which that I supervised before I became team leader the really tricky thing is timing but also location to coming back to right time right place right people because the program works in schools, we've really got to make sure that we're setting up the school for success, but although the student coming in for success as well. And that's been the hardest thing because a lot of our staff are part-time or they're transitioning in and out. So there's a bit of turnover as well, which can make it hard to set up a placement, particularly for social work when it's

500 hours. That's a long time to try to provide stability for them. and that's something they really seek to do because the leadership team at the moment is all made up as social workers. So we've all had our own placement experiences and we really want to make sure that if we're offering placement, it's going to be a positive for the student that comes on board. But also for the school, so they're willing to continue to do it as well. Yeah, yeah, it's hard because you want to demonstrate that it is possible and that, you know, the students are having good outcomes. Yeah.

The student that I supervised or would have been over 12 months ago, she's coming to the conclusion of her second placement, which she did in aged care, and she's going on to do her honours, and we've remained in touch, and it was a really wholesome experience, and I loved having a student there because it also invigorated my practice at that point. When I was at the rehab, we didn't have social work students, we had student paramedics coming in to do their mental health component, but it was a shorter point. I think it was like three weeks. It was really easy to make sure that for those three weeks we had these students coming in that we were offering a positive experience and that it was beneficial for everybody and it was stable as well. But I loved teaching, I suppose, which is where I admit that teaching's always been my backup plan. All else fails, I will go with teaching. Yeah, I was actually going to ask, what does that look like? Do you think once, you know, once you feel like you've achieved everything you can hear, Would you stay linked in with the university, maybe look at lecturing, that sort of thing,

or even research since you have that background? Yeah, I think so. I'd love to come on board as a lecturer if I was given an opportunity. I've also sat there and wondered if I want to go as far as to do a PhD in social work. I had a psychologist that I was seeing a couple of years ago challenge if I was doing it for the right reasons. I might have led the discussion with I'm doing it so that I can be called doctor. They didn't think that that was a good enough reason. I suppose what's stopping me doing a PhD or going into research is I want to find a topic

that motivates me to go back to doing it, particularly considering the cost financially and time-wise. I've just paid off my hex and it's amazing to be debt-free and I'm not sure I'm ready to go back to that yet. I also think I want to spend some time sitting where I currently am and actually. stopping for once and breathing here right now because I've got a lot of great opportunities right now that I can explore and go down different paths. But I think it will always be there. Maybe come ask me in 10 years time. Well, I hope I'm still doing the podcast in 10 years time.

Oh, that would be awesome. So what do you think you find most enjoyable? What's going to keep you in this role? Do you reckon? You mentioned there are a bunch of different opportunities that could be available to you. Yeah, so I think what keeps me working as a social worker is connection. So I think as long as I'm working in a place that provides me of the ability to connect with a diverse range of people on different levels, I will keep doing social work because that fills my cup. Sharing stories and, you know, laughing, crying together, that kind of stuff makes me feel alive and human. And I feel like we're in a society now where we're so fast-paced

that we've got really superficial connections and we don't take the time to sit with other people. And I look at the teenagers coming through the service that I've been involved with. They can have hours of conversation by a social media of a person all night, you know, these really deep and meaningful. conversations where they're spilling their heart out completely with no hidden areas and yet can't

meet with that person the next day and say hi. And for me, that worries me because it's not a real connection then. So I love meeting with people and having that actual connection. And that's what's going to keep me working in social work. I think for a very long time, because I don't know if you can necessarily get that anywhere else. Like I'm thinking jobs that involve numbers, like being an accountant or working at a bank, I just don't think it's the same. Yeah, I mean, you have customers. I guess that's a different interaction altogether. Yeah, I'm seeing people generally at their worst day or what they think is their worst day at that point in time or when they're feeling low or they're feeling vulnerable, fragile, they're raw at that point. There's not a lot of

masking generally happening. And for me, it's a privilege to be able to sit with someone at that point in time and just be present for them. And for me, that's social work. Yeah. What's the process being for you in terms of trying to set up your own business, your own practice? Have you had any mentors that are guiding me through that process or are you just like, I'm going to figure this out? A little bit of both. So there's been a little bit of figuring it out. But I have enlisted a social work coach who she's also in private, practice and does clinical supervision as well as a few other social work things but she's been really instrumental in helping ground me a little bit when my ideas get a little bit out there and

going through some of the really mundane stuff like getting an abn and then you know setting up a bank account and looking at you know invoicing platforms that we could use some of that stuff that when you're thinking big picture you kind of forget so it's been really helpful to have a social work coach doing all of that. So thank you, Jasmine. It's just been amazing. And I think that speaks to the broader level thing, whether you're going into your own business or you're starting out as a social worker, having a coach or a mentor or a clinical supervisor is just essential to really help keep you grounded, but also walk beside you through those struggles that you're going to come across because it's not easy. Nothing in life that's worth

doing, I think is easy though. but we shouldn't be doing it alone, particularly as new to the field or new to a particular area because there are people out there that we can connect to and work with that are going to help us and make it a bit easier, which might just make it a little bit more successful for us. I guess that's the biggest red flag I can see for you necessarily, given that connection is so important to you, if you were to move out of a situation where you were doing multiple things at once into solely private practice, the potential is there than you've isolated yourself from the people

that you need to build that support and build that network. But I'm sure you'll find a way around that when the time comes. Yeah, I think so. I don't know if I'd ever go 100% private practice, which I think will protect me a little bit. So I think you're right is a red flag. And as a person that I would admit, I'm introverted in my personal life, having connection. work's really important, not just for being a social worker, but for me as well as a person. I like having the protection of an organisation of colleagues, of knowing that when I go into work, someone will miss me if I don't walk through the door and I'll be like, oh, where's Jordan? Is she okay?

So I don't know if I'll ever go fully into private practice because of that. I also think, I think you're right. I think I'd probably get not necessarily a lack of connection, but I think I'd get bored at one type of connection because at the moment I've got connection with peers I've got connections with students I've got connection in multiple different areas which means that my cup of connections being filled through different pathways which keeps me fresh which keeps me happy I suppose yeah it's like a rainbow slurpy I used to not want one flavor I just mix them all up it's good fun exactly and we'll always have a we'll have a different flavor every now and then that we like that little bit more

we'll try to leave the last but we will need all those flavors in order to be able to appreciate that flavour yeah do you think you would ever do the accredited mental health social work registration is that something in your future oh that's i want to say that's a loaded question because i think it's something that's a lot of emphasis is put on and a lot of jobs out there now have that restriction of wanting accredited mental health social workers for me it's a no so i have a had an opportunity to kind of go work with this other organisation, but their kind of requirement was being accredited as a mental health social worker, so you could do Medicare because it opens up the client pool. But it's extra money, it's extra time. And I'm not entirely sure that my path

has needed me to go down that route. And I don't know if my current path requires that either. I mean, for the first time ever, I'm an accredited social worker. So for the first time since I registered the ASW, I finally imported into the system enough hours. I actually went over and above on some of those hours. I was like, damn, can't I like save them for the next year? But no, you can't. So I'm happy that I've done that.

And I wish I'd maybe done that a bit earlier. I think it's just that level of going, yes, I'm a social worker, but I'm a social worker that's committed to ongoing professional development, which I think is really amazing. important by, yeah, I'm a kind of a no vote for wanting to do the mental health accreditation. And the cost and the time is a really big factor, particularly when considering the average wages of social workers, the current cost of living crises, the amount it already costs to be registered of the ASW. And I wonder if it's going to restrict us and not help us grow as a profession.

That's a really significant example of having said no. I'm just going to point out in a good way because you've thought long and hard and said, this isn't for me, at least not right now. So I'm really glad to hear it. Social work in schools is in the grand scheme of things a relatively new concept and program. Do you know whether there's been much research into the impact of social work in schools and the supports and effects that's had? I'll be honest, I'm probably not up to date with the research around schools and social

work specifically. I think it's unfortunate that social workers have been restricted or kept out of schools for as long as we have because we can fill a gap in service that is required by local communities. There's not just a gap that social work can feel. I think we need to do more around getting OTs into schools as well, being more holistic and our approach. You know, if you think of a hospital and the Allied services there, you've got social work, physio, OT, you've got a variety of other professionals all working together on a whole

person to help that whole person. Yeah, I feel like schools, which is a growing space for us to really do work in, still isn't ready for that level of commitment yet for helping out our students. I still think it's unfortunate that if I wanted to work in the public school system right now, I wouldn't be able to, at least not doing the same thing I'm doing right now in a Catholic school. And I think looking at the team that I worked with and the fact that we've got sites, councils and social workers, our position descriptions are the same, but we bring different things to the job, which we share with each other in our team meetings and our group supervisions. and then we take that back and it's shared with our school communities where if we were only looking for a particular type of social worker or a psychologist, I think we would be missing out on a wealth of knowledge, but also a large part of our workforce would disappear.

Particularly when you think of the reasons why I said no to becoming a mental health accredited social worker, if they can't get the job because they don't have that, how they ever going to get that accreditation as well. So I think it's definitely an area to watch and get involved with. If you're interested in working of young people, how do we do more in schools? Because that's where the kids are. And it takes stress off families because they don't have to try and bring the kids to you, which helps as well. Yeah. Are there any programs or projects that you get to work on within the school?

Yes. So depending on the school community, there might be certain projects or certain directions we go down more. with the school. So some schools really push social skills type projects and developments so there some are more looking at say facilitating the love bites program that Napkin does and how do we really bring in consent as a conversation how do we bring in safe relationships not just romantically but with our friendships and particularly that online space that's so big these days. I did do some work on a transitional program to help year six as in Deerexie

sevens. My big goal at that point was to try and incorporate a transition program for every year based on the fact that change is the only constant in the world. So if we can better prep children to manage change, then they're going to be better prep to manage change throughout their whole lives, which I think would reduce a lot of stress and will reduce a lot of other things that, you know, take away from our well-being and health as well. So there is some scope for that, I suppose the hard thing is it comes back to time and it comes back to if I say yes to this, what am I saying no to? And our schools are busy.

We have a lot of students that are needing support or a lot of families that are needing support. And as it is, I'm not sure that we've been able to achieve what we really want to achieve, which is every kid being able to see a counsellor. Because if you've got a school of a thousand students and only two counsellors, it's just not going to happen. Yeah. If anyone wanted to know more about the type of social work that you do or have done, so it could be the rehab stuff, it could be the school social work. Are there any resources that you'd recommend or media, even, anything accessible? Yeah, so I would definitely recommend looking at places like napkin around their Love Bites programs. If you're interested in doing some stuff with young people, whether or not you've got a job in an organisation, that works with them already, you can get trained up as facilitators in programs like Love Bites, which means you can start to build connections and networks with people in the local community.

Like an ideal Love Bites facilitation will have some people from each organisation in the community. So a couple from Headspace, if you're lucky a person from the local police force, from other organisations and it brings everybody together, which I think can be really helpful for all our communities if we work together. other programs as well that can be potentially beneficial. So I always recommend doing lifelines DV alert. That's one that I say that every social worker should do, particularly with the growing, I suppose, media attention

on domestic and family of violence. I think we need to make sure we're ticking that box for ourselves so that we're being aware of it because it's everywhere. So even though I work with students right now, those students are going home to families. or those students are beginning to have relationships. So how can we be aware of what's happening and how can we be preventative and supportive

at the same time? When it comes to training and stuff, I always recommend emerging minds and origin. So they offer free online modules. Origins probably more towards your teens and adolescents, emerging minds your children and families. But they're a really great place to start. They're simple,

simple, they're easy to go through but really informative and it can start pointing you in the right direction. So I always recommend them to new staff when I'm onboarding or to new clients in clinical supervision, particularly if they're wanting to do more with young people. Yeah. A couple of episodes ago, I was chatting with one of the other lovely social workers about media and representations of social workers in media and she was talking about things like Lilo and Stitch and some really hilarious things. things. I've just kind of remembered, have you seen the movie Precious? It was actually a book before it was a movie. I haven't seen the movie, but I've seen the trailer. Okay, so there's a social worker played by

Mariah Carey, of all people. And if you didn't know it was her, you probably wouldn't know it was her because no makeup, know anything, just completely natural and she does just such an incredible job, but she's the school social worker. So perhaps, you know, check it out. It's super interesting just from a I mean it's a really horrible sad story about how this poor student comes to see the social worker and then the social worker feeling so incredibly helpless in how how do I break down the systems of inequity that's led to this person's journey and their opportunities going forward but I'm wondering if there's any other sort of representation of social work that you think of when you do your work or things that get it really wrong or

things that get it right. There's a movie with Woody Harrelson as a teacher. So he's not a social worker, he's a teacher. And there's a student and she's played by, I want to say her name is Haley Steinfeld. So she was in pitch perfect, one of the later movies. So what I really loved in that movie is he connected with her. He didn't just put her in a box as a student that wasn't maybe committing in class or it wasn't trying her hardest. he connected with her story. I mean, there was some personal boundaries being crossed. I'm fairly sure she came to his house, which I would not recommend as an actual social worker. But that movie stands out for me because of the connection and actually seeing her as a person

at that point and not going, oh, she's just a teenager and she's not trying hard. This is where I admit I tend to stay away from movies or shows that show a lot. of social work or stuff that I'm sitting with because for me when I'm watching something I almost want to be a break from what I'm living in saying that I love watching medical shows and they never show social work enough yeah so I'm currently binge watching the resident and it's making me never want to go to hospital again because I'm really questioning some ethics but they there's so many opportunities and I was like why didn't you get the social worker like

he or she could have sat and connected with that patient at that point in time. We could have actually had some informed consent. We could have maybe got the amount of hospital quicker because of supports in the community. So I want to say to medical shows, do better, actually put social work and actually put positive social work on the spotlight because we're such a big part of people's recoveries. And same with shows that are potentially going to have schools and stuff like councils and career advisors, which is more of an American version. We're such a big instrumental part of helping students

because teachers are busy, teachers are tired. And, you know, if we can take that load a little bit and we can be the person to connect, we're going to make a big difference, not only for our students, but for our teachers as well. That's really important to shout that out. I'm even thinking something like Scrubs that was supposed to be such an accurate representation of medical journey,

had one social worker that I can remember and she was a love interest. It wasn't about what the social worker was doing. It was just she's a hot gal. I mean, aren't we all? But that's not what we're here to do. I think that's right. Challenging that stereotype that social work isn't some soft person in the hospital that's just going to come in and make people smile. We do serious work and we're not just women and we're not just love interests. We're more, we're complex human beings as well with our own stories that deserve to be told. We've had enough of surgeons. Turn the lens on social workers and physios and OTs and dieticians and everybody else that helps the hospital run.

Yeah, 100%. Jordan, is there anything that we haven't talked about that you wanted to make mention, I'm aware of time and don't want to keep you too long, but is there anything else that you wanted to say about your experience or social work in general? Yeah, I think when I look back at my experience, it's diverse. I started in case management and I moved into age care assessing. And then, you know, I did my placements. I shifted to a new town and I did work in mental health and then drug and alcohol and now

in the education system. And I feel like sometimes there's this push-trial. to pick one thing and stay there. And I want to tell people it's okay to shift. And I've shifted across, I've shifted diagonal, and my skills have been transferable. And if you're a social worker listening to the podcast and you're experiencing burnout and compassion fatigue, sometimes we question whether or not we need to stay in the profession and then sometimes guilt keeps us here because we know we've done, you know, a uni degree, we've

got a hex debt because of it, but our skills are transferable. And I've actually yet to work in a job where I've had the title of social worker. So I think it's okay if we do other things because we're still going to take our social work identity with us. I think that's the biggest thing is that it's such a diverse identity. It's such a diverse community a part of. But we just need to break some of those stereotypes down about what social work actually is. And a stereotype we haven't talked about is a fact that in Australia we think of DCJ when we talk about social workers. and child protection and that intergenerational trauma.

But we're so much more than that. So don't feel like you have to pick hospital social work and stay in hospital social work or pick drug and alcohol and stay in drug and alcohol. So I feel like I've done more drug and alcohol counselling working at a school with teenagers than I have when I was working in the community as drug and alcohol. Where the predominant counselling I was doing was trauma.

So, you know, be open, be diverse and have fun. with it. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. Only a third of my roles have been a nominated social work role. So it just speaks to the diversity, as you were saying, the capacity to find a gap in a service or in a system and say, hey, we have this really strong foundation. Here's how we translate that support. So as you said, you've taken that dream that you had of helping other people. And university was difficult for you because it wasn't speaking to your It wasn't what you were really passionate about and interested in in terms of putting people in boxes instead of putting people first. So I think it's great that you had lots of experience with things like that, restorative justice research that you were able to do.

That's an excellent skill to have. The community-based alcohol and other drug support was great as well, but it's okay to shift. It's okay to keep moving forward and keep building your ability and keep expanding your toolbox, I guess. I think what's also important about what you were saying is the need to set boundaries. And I think as your career progresses, that will change as well. Your boundaries will shift and it will be based on whatever the priority is for you at the time. But as you said, it's not saying no necessarily. It's saying not right now or here are some options, come back.

Yeah. you've been able to develop your supervision skills and you said your focus is on seeing the person and their needs rather than seeing the professional or the counselor or the psychologist that's in front of you. And now you're taking it even further and thinking outside the box and going, okay, how do I educate the community? How do I use different kinds of media to be able to increase people's awareness of an issue or to be able to help someone understand a concept? And yeah, I think all that's wonderful.

The other thing that I guess I just want to hit home is when you were talking about through your job application processes, it's really hard and it's soul destroying sometimes to be said, no, you're not the right person or it's not the right time. But you've sought feedback. So you've gone to the person and said, thank you very much. But can I get some feedback or is there something I can improve on? which, you know, it takes guts and it takes a lot of energy to do, but ultimately it's helped you to understand this is something that is a possibility for me. I just need a little bit more under my belt or a little bit more confidence, so I need to pitch it in a certain way based on what they're looking for.

So that's really good advice. Yeah, and that's advice that I would give and give freely that ask for feedback, because the worst case, the person's going to say no, and they're not going to give you any feedback, and you've got the same amount of information you had before you ask the question. But you could ask that question and they could provide you with feedback that could change the course that you're on, whether it's going and getting experience somewhere specific, or is it going and practicing a certain skill that you can utilize during interviews?

Because maybe you're super nervous and you weren't able to get out clearly what you were trying to say. So do you go and practice how to do that? This is where I admit I study for job interviews like they're an exam. So I learn everything I can about the organisation about the job and I have cheat cheats and I walk in with a folder and I have questions that I want to ask as well because remember you're also interviewing them too. So if you go in, even if they offer you the job, but you weren't feeling like all the boxes were ticked,

that's where you've got to set a boundary for yourself. Because for you to do your best work, you've got to be somewhere where you feel safe as well. But don't be afraid to ask for feedback. And as someone that now interviews people for jobs, I love it when I get asked, what's some feedback? Because I can go, cool, we've really liked this. However, we need to strengthen this area. Here are some options.

These are our suggestions. You know, come back when you've been able to do that, and then maybe it will be a different story. Maybe it will be the right time for us. Or maybe it will put you in a direction that takes you somewhere completely different. Like for me, it pushed me into drug and alcohol, a field I never thought I'd work in I wouldn't like and I loved it. And I could go back to drug and alcohol tomorrow and be happy.

And that only happened because I was told, no, you need to get more experience, look at other things. And I went and did that. And I had an amazing time and I've gotten amazing skills to carry with me. I think also coming back to your conversation around burnout and, you know, looking after yourself and culture. That's the sort of question, I guess, you could ask in a job interview of, do people tend to stay beyond the time that they're supposed to?

Do they take work home? What is the culture? What is the expectation? Because I feel like you can very quickly gauge from how a person reacts to that question as to what kind of cultural workplace it is. Yeah. And you definitely want to read between the lines as well, because obviously everyone's putting their best foot forward on interview day,

organization and interviewer like. So always look for that initial reaction, like he said. But also just have a look at the general vibe. Like what are the people in the room, what vibe are they giving off to you? When you walk into that space, if it's their office building, does it walk in and feel like home? And by the home, I mean that we walk in and does it feel comfortable and safe? and for me, light and bright, or does it feel dirty and old or something else?

And you're like, oh, I don't know if it's the right fit. Clinical as well, you know, is it very clean and very white? Because that's probably not an ideal thing either. And it's okay to say no to opportunities and keep waiting for the next one because the next one might be more right as well. But I think that's also pressure as a newer social worker is staying where you are and waiting for the right opportunity. There was a person I worked with for a very brief period of time

who was studying social work. And I had just graduated, and she couldn't believe I was staying in the job where I was in, but I was like, right now I've got other things that I'm balancing and managing. I just moved towns, and I was okay staying at the level I was at, but she couldn't believe that I would do that as a qualified social worker. I'm like, yeah, but the right time, the right place, and the right opportunity will come along.

and it did two months later. I think also talk to other social workers. Don't just assume this is what it's going to be like. Yeah. Yeah, reach out, talk to different social workers, join social work networks. There's one here in Bathis that has a bunch of different social workers from hospital, from community organisations doing very different work. And I think that offers an opportunity to be able to see what social work can look like

in different contexts because doing two placements isn't, going to give you a really broad understanding of social work. Yeah. Such good advice. Thank you so much, Jordan, for meeting with me today. I've loved having a chat with you and hearing about your experience. So yeah, just can't thank you enough for your time. And I look forward to seeing where it takes you next. No worries. Thank you so much for having me and thank you for reaching out. It was a new challenge and I'm glad I said yes because I've had an amazing afternoon just chatting with you. Thank you. Thanks for joining me this week. If you'd like to continue this discussion or ask anything of either myself or Jordan, please

visit my anchor page at anchor.fm slash social work spotlight. You can find me on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter, or you can email SW Spotlightpodcast at gmail.com. I'd love to hear from you. Please also let me know if there is a particular topic you'd like discussed, or if you or another person you know would like to be featured on the show. Next episode's guest is Dr. Josie McSgimming, who has practiced in a wide range of of settings for over 40 years, including hospital social work, inter-country adoption, post-adoption

services, drug and alcohol treatment, individual and couples therapy, and adult mental health. In addition to her private practice providing therapy and clinical supervision, Josie is an adjunct lecturer at the University of New South Wales and the author of two books, leaving Christian fundamentalism and the reconstruction of identity and gutsy girls, a memoir to be released early 2025. I release a new episode every two weeks. Please subscribe to my podcast so you'll notify when this next episode is available. See you next time.