Social Work Spotlight - Episode 134: Heath

Episode Date: April 25, 2025

In this episode I speak with Heath, a recently graduated social worker who has been studying the last six years and is currently working in the child protection space in the NGO sector. He has also completed a five-year internship in counselling whilst studying and now also works in private practice as a social worker. Heath has a strong passion for critical social work practice and strives for innovative change within the human services sector.Links to resources mentioned in this week’s episode:Barnardo’s Family Connect and Support program - https://www.barnardos.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/FCS_21_89491_FCS-brochure.pdfMacquarie Cottage Counselling Services - https://www.macquariecottagecounsellingservicesinc.net/meet-our-clinical-team/Reimagining Narrative Therapy Through Practice Stories and Autoethnography - https://www.routledge.com/Reimagining-Narrative-Therapy-Through-Practice-Stories-and-Autoethnography/Heath-Carlson-Epston/p/book/9781032128658#:~:text=Reimagining%20Narrative%20Therapy%20Through%20Practice%20Stories%20and%20Autoethnography,contemporary%20narrative%20therapy%2C%20based%20in%20autoethnography%20and%20storytellingDCJ’s TEI program - https://dcj.nsw.gov.au/service-providers/deliver-services-to-children-and-families/targeted-earlier-intervention-program/tei-program.htmlPESI training - https://www.pesi.com.au/National Hearing Voices Network - https://www.hearing-voices.org/#contentNarrative Means to Therapeutic Ends - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/726292.Narrative_Means_to_Therapeutic_EndsDr Mark Cross - https://www.drmarkx.com/Changing Minds: The Inside Story - https://iview.abc.net.au/show/changing-minds-the-inside-storyPower Threat Meaning Framework - https://www.bps.org.uk/member-networks/division-clinical-psychology/power-threat-meaning-frameworkOpen Dialogue Centre - https://opendialoguecentre.org.au/Gabor Maté - https://drgabormate.com/A Therapeutic Treasure Box for Working with Children and Adolescents with Developmental Trauma - https://www.booktopia.com.au/a-therapeutic-treasure-box-for-working-with-children-and-adolescents-with-developmental-trauma-dr-karen-treisman/book/9781785922633.htmlAping Mankind - https://www.routledge.com/Aping-Mankind/Tallis/p/book/9781138640320Invitations to responsibility: the therapeutic engagement of men who are violent and abusive - https://catalogue.nla.gov.au/catalog/1797499This episode's transcript can be viewed here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1snKAEum6R64hrjc4ffU0wZKi8trGjq6K2e7HyXbEhis/edit?usp=sharingThanks to Kevin Macleod of incompetech.com for our theme music.

I begin today by acknowledging the Gadigal people of the Eura Nation, traditional custodians of the land on which I record this podcast, and pay my respects to their elders past and present. I extend that respect to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people listening today. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples have an intrinsic connection to this land and have cared for country for over 60,000 years, with their way of life having been devastated by colonisation. Hi and welcome to social work spotlight where I showcase different areas of the profession each episode.

I'm your host, Yasmin Lupus, and today's guest is Heath, a recently graduated social worker who has been studying the last six years and is currently working in the child protection space in the NGO sector. He has also completed a five-year internship in counseling while studying and now also works in private practice as a social worker. Heath has a strong passion for critical social work practice and strives for innovative change within the human services sector. Heath would like to issue a disclaimer that everything said and expressed in this podcast are Heath's own views and opinions only and do not represent the views or opinions of the organisations he works for or is affiliated with.

Thank you so much, Heath, for coming on to the podcast today. I'm looking forward to having a chat with you and getting to know a bit more about your social work experience. Yeah, no, thanks for having me on. I think it would be good and especially with what I've listened to so far, it's been quite intriguing and interesting. So yeah. Lovely. I always ask firstly when you got started in social work and what brought you to the profession. Yeah. I've done in total six years of study, but I started off doing a diploma of mental health first through TAFE and that was sort of to get my

bearings on like what path I actually wanted to go down, I guess, in the human services field. So that was for about, I think I did a diploma for about a year and a half, and then I then wanted to do psychology and I wanted to become a psychologist. So I undertook the Bachelor's of Social Sciences Psychology in my undergraduates. So that was for three years from like 2020 to 2023. And in that, I discovered, I think partly because of having the social sciences units in that, that I was like, oh, the theories and some of the, the practice that I was seeing is something that I'm more aligned with with my own values and ways of seeing and perceiving the world and people and societies and communities. So instead of pursuing onwards for psych, that's when I said to myself, okay, I'm going to

make the jump and do the masters of social work starting 2024. So, yeah, I jumped into that and that's sort of where it all began. But it was really through doing the diploma and the undergraduate for me to really carve that path. It wasn't until probably like halfway through my third year of my undergraduate in social sciences psych that I was like, oh, no, I think like I'm beginning to feel more, I guess, attracted to the social work stream of practice and theory. So yeah, that's when I jumped over and I just finished last year. Yeah. It must have been pretty daunting, though, having done already so much study and then diving into and committing to significant more study, was there a point at which

in doing that last degree, the Masters, that you've felt like, oh, good, I've made the right decision? Yeah, for sure. I think within my first semester and then my first placement, I was like, this is it. I'm really happy that I've picked this field and I felt myself enjoying the content a lot, not saying I didn't enjoy the content and learning at my undergraduate. I think that taught me a lot, but it just felt more purposeful for me. And I was getting so much more out of it, especially practice-wise.

And yeah, so I think really from the get-go, I'd say. And did you have to do two placements? Yep, I did two placements. So Western Sydney University, that's where I studied for both my degrees. So Western Sydney, I know different masters have different or even bachelors have different ways of doing their hours. But our first placement's 400 and like 8 hours, and then the other one's roughly 500. Yeah.

So yeah, definitely got placements done as well in the first, so first year and second year. Yeah. And what were those placements and how did they kind of solidify the area that you wanted to work in? Yeah. So I, my first placement, they were both fantastic placements. So, and that, yeah, so that's a really good question because I think that's going to lead into exactly where I am working now, where my interests have sort of sprung off to. But my first placement was in a family service. It was called Gateway Family Services. They're based in the mountain and pendants. and they've got like three areas dedicated to communities and families one being like their family supports that's kind of like more that casework modalities one being essentials which was more of that community related work so it was things like being able to do food packages they had a big volunteer backbone to that operation as well so there was you know making sure people able to get those like basic necessities learning how to do e-par those types of things like which is the

electricity accounts payment scheme which is for electricity bills gas bills that type of thing yeah and then their third one was like therapy so like art and play therapy in particular they had a lot for children and families and the family support and the counselling areas were DCJ funded so the department of communities and justice and then the essentials was actually all done through community funded and backed initiatives which was really good but that sort of started my exposure to more of the child protection space and working with families and that I took a really big liking and interest to that particular type of work with what was on offer and then being exposed during that placement to like another broad kind of width of services that help with children and

families so Department of Communities and Justice and then other areas like family preservation other more intense family support services services that you know work with parents or carers of mental health but also have children and being able to work that way. So, or drug and alcohol related services with family. So that took me to a whole new learning, I guess, and the area of interest where I didn't really ever think I'd get into, but then found myself absolutely loving it. Because when I think of DCJ work or child protection, family support work,

I tend to first think practical. There are so many practical responses and crisis interventions and things that you need to do on the fly. And I don't often think of counseling. And obviously you would use a lot of the counseling skills and concepts in providing the services and your interactions with people. But did you find that you just grew to love

that more practical side of things? Or did you find that there was a really good way to bring in your counseling skills to that space? Yeah, I think definitely both. But I think, yeah, more on the how practical it was is what I really liked and that it wasn't. So like I guess when someone comes in for counseling or a therapeutic process, it's usually, it's definitely not narrow in terms of what people come in for, but really your view, I guess,

is to work with people through their thoughts, emotions, feelings, that type of thing, motivation, those areas and understanding, I guess, more of the psychological and of course systematic impacts around and environmental impacts on someone's, I guess, day-to-day functioning or, you know, their abilities or whatnot. But I think with that family support or that casework component, I really like, because the work didn't have to necessarily focus just on say thoughts, emotions and feelings it could focus on things like, hey, I'm really struggling with even being able to get my kids to school, which has then this sort of multifaceted impact of then kids not turning up to schools.

That's attendance problems through school or even just being able to have the kids making sure they're going to school and getting an education or whatever it is participating in those activities. So I think if you, you know, understand someone's situation where it's like, oh, yeah, I can't afford the Red Joe, for example, because I've had to put food towards, you know, just to feed my kids. And that was the last amount of money I had. And so being able to come up creatively in working with ways to try and not to say that, that's easy.

And there's always a solution. But, yeah, working very creatively with people and families, using really pulling on, having to pull on their resources and strengths to come up with those solutions to move forward for them and just being kind of a part of that process. And I think that's an area where I really, really find not like, not rewarding, but I find it very engaging with the skills that I like to offer or the work that I like to do with people, families. Yeah.

Yeah. So a bit of both. Yeah, yeah. No, I definitely get that. And it just reminds me of the conversation I had in the episode just before yours with Braden. He was talking about regulation with his clients and ability to support. people, not just with his clients, but with his staff as well, that he was supporting in supervision

and trying to really support people when they're at that crisis stage or when they can't see a solution to help them to regulate and to ground, I guess, so that they can be as productive or as engaged in that solution-finding space. But it looks like you've really taken that challenge and you find it really rewarding to be able to identify solutions for people. Yeah. So it's a very different focus to sitting in a room with someone and talking about something for an hour and then you don't see them again for a week. It's really developing relationships. Yeah, it is and it is a really different way of working like in that sort of more clinical space compared to say more of uh, well it's it can be still clinical, I guess casework for sure, but it's

it's a lot more involved and I guess ongoing collaborative space um where people can, you know, if you're whatever your day job is with casework. People can bring you up in that period wherever. Like there's no necessarily set times constantly get a phone call at, you know, 10 o'clock in the morning because something's happened or cars broken down or, you know, kids mucking up and not wanting to get ready or something for school and like how you can best support someone at that moment

and knowing that that's what they need rather than say like an hour long or whatever therapy session. I think that's been the big difference and the way that I like to work really and finding discovering that for myself. Yeah, and my practice. Do you ever have to work longer hours, or are they pretty good at kind of restricting you to regular times? No, generally.

Look, I guess for context, yeah, so I'm currently working in Bonato's Family Connected Support, which is that, you know, that sort of family and children's oriented service and program. But yeah, we do, we can work out of those sort of like normal business hours because part of our work is home visits with people, with families, and especially, you know, during the school terms, it's not really like feasible for people to or families just for us to come and visit in the middle of the day or right in the morning and like in that really busy chaotic time to get, you know, that school rush time. So yeah, like we will, you know, like often

I'll work with people about like what best suits them for us to come around to do a home visit. And so, you know, we can be, you know, five to six to seven. And it depends on what you're walking into I guess as well or what the conversations are going to be, you could be there till a bit later. Not like ridiculous, but yeah, like you could definitely be an hour or two over your normal sort of hours, I guess, yeah. And what's the makeup of your team? Do you have quite a multidisciplinary approach to things? Yes, so the one thing I really like about our program, Family Connection Support, is that our eligibility, I guess, this will give a bit of context into what we work with and how we work, but our eligible

for our program is essentially as long as you've got children under the age of 18 living in your home and you are not currently working with DCJ Child Protection, then we will work with you if we get referrals and things like that. So the idea about it is the whole idea really to a really simple point is trying to get the right supports and resources at the right time. And we're in that space of where sort of seen as like very generalists and we try and like we don't just work on one particular issue. We take a child protection focus lens the whole way, of course, but if someone's having difficulties with financial capacity,

then that's something we'll try and work with the family with. And then if someone's really struggling with their mental health, that's also something that we will really help, like we'll try and help with if someone's struggling with alcohol and other drug use that's impacting either on their own ability or their parenting ability. Then we'll also work with families with that as well. And we try and bring in those resources, both other services and then also their own other network, like their own support networks and

family to try and help support whatever they might be facing. So yeah, I do think that we're quite a holistic team in terms of what we actually aim to do. And I'm guessing the services that you can refer to and work with a network have people from a variety of backgrounds which probably strengthens the approach. Yeah. So we will definitely identify like those more specialized services as well to help and we sort of like do the case coordination of it so like we're making sure that yeah we're linking into those say specific or longer term services so we are only 16 weeks as well in our program so not long in terms of like ongoing work like a family preservation team or even potential family support teams but we'll so say if there's domestic and family violence

happening within the home or even external to the home we definitely would want to bring on in collaboration with the family of course and as long as there's consent and everything else and we've discussed it, bringing in a domestic and family violence service to help provide that more specialised support. And most of the services that we refer to for domestic and family violence are often longer term services based on the needs. So, you know, if they've got family law courts are coming up mediation, if ABOs are about to finish, like they'll stay in that process, whereas we might have to back out, depending on other constraints, or that, you know, they're linked in with this particular specialised service now and there's not really the need for us anymore. Yeah. I was going to ask about time frames because it seems as though, as you said, if they're actively with the statutory response services,

they are not eligible for your program. And your program would probably aim to be more of an early intervention, trying to prevent it to escalate to that extent. But is there a situation where you might be providing support and then it escalates? Or maybe you know, you weren't involved in the first place. It's gone to statutory. And then they then refer back to you for ongoing. support? Does it feed both ways? Yeah, for sure. It definitely does. Like we definitely, and I know

I have even so far been there, what, like six months, I think now roughly, five, six months. I've already escalated down as I've worked with to more of that DCJ level intervention. Yeah, and vice versa, we do get, not a whole lot, but we do get referrals from DCJ back to be like, okay, we've mitigated this or, you know, we've looked at this and let's say we've had a good relationship with a family or they identify that there is that kind of bigger needs that could be met, like there could be five or six needs or wants for that family, then that's where they might bring it back to us because we will work with not just one or two. We'll work with like if they've got six needs,

and that's something we'll sit down and talk about to see what that looks like for them. One of the other things we do have as well, though, is that a lot of our referrals do come from the child well-being units. So in New South Wales at least we've got, I'm sure there'll be something similar in other states and territories, but in New South Wales, as most of the government departments have a child well being unit so in new south wales health department of education and police um where there's child protection concerns and they kind of go to this unit and they they're like more i guess assessing what that looks like of where it needs to go like

does it need to go to does it hit rosh or risk of significant harm and then go up to dcj or can it be mitigated maybe before that with a service like ourselves so we actually have an mow you with the police in particular with police child well being in it so if that's the case they will refer to us we get a lot of police child well-being unit referrals and with the idea to try and prevent escalation to DCJ or or if it's gone to them at the child well-being unit and they've assessed it as yep this needs it's hitting rush and it needs to be sent to DCJ but it gets screened out or it gets not allocated due to capacity then it will if you come back to us. Mm-hmm yeah so that that's a good safety net at least.

Yeah and that's what we really and my program manager and my team leaders are very passionate about our program, especially because we do work with those families who could be missed and fall through the gaps because they're not needing either a DCJ threshold or there's not enough availability of capacity with other services. And I don't necessarily, I don't agree with these terms, but these are terms I do hear a lot. Like they're too high needs for other services or other family support that would class themselves as not working under that sort of targeted early intervention. and I'm like, oh no, but we more work down this centre than up here.

So they're really those families that can get missed and will get missed, and we kind of are there to try and figure out how we can best support, I guess, and help those families if we can. Yeah. And is your team made up of mostly social workers, or do you have quite a variety of professionals whose skills lend themselves really well to this area? Mostly social workers, or people who have done their degrees in, like, the social sciences.

we've got someone who's got a police background as well. So, yeah, it is, it's mostly centered on the social sciences or social work, you know, practice backgrounds who are working in our team. And what support do you have within that in terms of, especially if you've just gone and it's at the end of the day, it's like maybe 6pm and you just want to go home and you've been on a home visit and, you know, it's all very difficult work. How do you feel as though you can go home and not take that on?

Yeah, it's a good question. because it's something that I'm probably not the best at all the time, or I guess any of us all the time, and sometimes you go away thinking, like, you can't just sort of just go, okay, that's the day finished, yep, I'm going to leave it all there, and I'll be, I'm going to continue on with my evening or afternoon, it's something that you will go back and sit within the car and work out like, oh, did I ask this? How do I ask this? Or could I have asked more of a curious question about this? Or did I need to explore this a bit more? You know, did that need to be saved to plan? Like, you kind of go through that, but on some more of the family,

where there's quite a lot of risk and potential dangers, our team leaders will mostly, like, I'll get text messages even through it. If we're over the time and what we've said, we would be roughly, like, hey, just check you in to see that you're still okay. And if you just need a bit of a debrief after, you might, like you'll drive maybe a bit further down the road away from the family's house and get on the phone to your team leader and have a bit of a talk about whatever, a bit of a debrief around what's happened and where you're up to with it.

And then usually it's just like, yeah, we'll just continue this. or touch base on it in the morning and what you need to do for yourself now type thing. Yeah. Yeah. So generally I go away with it doing like I think even though I'm a very, I'm very young in my career as a social worker, I've had a lot of experience I feel in this field. And so I've been able to come up with ways, especially with placements and internships I've done where that's been big learning and just how do I look after myself coming away from

either sessions that end quite like even when I'm in private practice. just like, you know, I sometimes say people are 530 to 630 or sometimes a bit later. So the same sort of principles apply, I guess, for myself is just what I need to do, walk away from it, or not to walk away from it, I guess, to just process what I've sat with as best as I can. Sometimes we'll do that in one, you know, in the span of an afternoon. But knowing, you know, that you've done the best, like, you know, where you've done the best job you could of in that in that moment of time and that you'll revisit this later and things like you can go and talk to your supervisors, your external supervisor in supervision.

You know, speak to if you've got anyone who does sort of like peer supervision stuff, speak with them. Like there's ways you can do it. Or for me, my favorite is I'll come home and I'll sort of journal it if I can and put it down. But like I'll literally just come home and go, be like I need to go for a walk or a run or something. And that's what I'll do as well. So yeah, I think I handle it in terms of my own self-awareness. I think I handle it pretty okay. Yeah.

Tell me about this private practice and what your focus is on and how on earth you all of this at once. Yeah, I'll give a bit of context with it too because it's a bit of my journey is a bit of an interesting one in terms of how I got to where I am. Yeah, so during, as I mentioned at the beginning, I did a deploy mental health at tape. And by the way, I still think this is a bit of, I digress a bit I know, but I'll just sort of note this year is that what TAFE taught me and what I was witness to and what I was able to experience was practice wise, so much more enriching than what I got through the university

outside of say placements even when I was at TAFE so much of it was based on practicing like I think almost every second lesson and because TAFE like sets itself up a bit different or at least in my course it set itself up a bit differently from uni where you might just do like hour or maybe two hour or three hour classes in a day but it might be split up or in the week even depending on your schedule but TAFE would run pretty much all day from like that nine to four and every second and I was there probably three days of week four days of the week sometimes and almost every second lesson we were just in like these they called them triads and everyone's just practicing constantly. But we did a placement, so I promise this relates to my next bit now.

So I did my placement up in, so I'm from the Blue Mountains in South Wales. So I did a placement in Springwood with a guy that he was actually my teacher at TAFE. And he's also from up that way and I was looking for a placement and we sort of spoke about it about me coming on and he's in private practice as a counselor. So his background is a counselor. And, you know, we got along really well, especially talking around like men's mental health, men's way relating with each other, you know, men's use of violence, that type of stuff. We had some pretty big conversations around that, and especially because a lot of his work was based in that area as well. And so he took me on for a student on placement for like 240 hours, I think up at the practices called the Macquarie Cottage Counseling Service.

So I did my placement there. We got on very well. Like, we both sort of, you know, spoke about how we had it. It was a really good placement experience even for him. And so really, he offered me this kind of like internship style-based learning in the counselling space for the years. So from finishing in 2019 all the way up to last year. So in that time, I think a lot about five years or something.

I was a volunteer in my own time. It was a non-paid internship. I'd go up and where it was appropriate, where he's spoken about it with people he was seeing and things, I would be part of, you know, be part of the process where I was just sitting there and listening and understanding how it works. and that type of thing and then it moved on to the next stage is where he would invite me to go look at doing things like wellness plans or recovery action plans with people who might have needed it alongside the therapeutic component of it and then from there I started really

enhancing my own counselling skills and then to the point now where I'm where I practice there. So yeah that's been kind of we took this kind of apprenticeship based mentoring model on how he was able to teach me and then we've done a lot of trainings together. as well, like a lot to inform, like a lot of certificates and things for me to inform the way I'm using the modalities, different therapeutic modalities, and gaining those other skills outside as well, just the place that I was doing that internship at. But yeah, so now I practice there ongoingly, and I usually do, look, I don't say it's not a full-time dig whatsoever. It's something that I do, I wouldn't do it full-time. I don't think ever. I think it'd take,

I think that'd be too much for me, to be honest, doing therapy constantly every single day. yeah, no, it's definitely not where I see myself going. But I think it's something that I want to hold on to because I definitely enjoy the work, especially with the modalities or the approaches we use, I guess. It helps inform our work heaps and helps inform my passion for it a lot. And so usually I'll see people of a Friday afternoon or a Saturday, depending, and I might only, for ethical reasons,

I'll only usually see, like, have an active amount of clients of like usually three to five. Yeah. And I imagine you've been able to have discussions with the owner of the practice around why he chooses to do this full time. And so you can get both sides of that. I really want the practical, but I understand there are benefits to doing that full time. And he's got his own reasons,

but you can kind of use that to go, but I'm different in these ways. Yeah, for sure. And even for him, like he never started. He only, in his later half of his career, did he end up actually doing more of that full time? work in that practice. But even then, it wasn't to the point of like five days a week, six clients a day. It was very spaced out. And he's also an external supervisor. So he did a lot

of supervisory work. This is actually my external supervisor that I pay. So yeah, but even for him at the start of his career, he was doing that one, two days, maybe three days. And then the other days he was, you know, he's worked at Wednesday mission. He's worked in in other areas as well. So it's kind of similar almost. Like he started off working in those NGOs. spaces and even he said like really it is really good to get experience and work in the NGO or government spaces before you sort of just jump straight into like a private practice setting because they are completely different they are completely different in so many ways but yeah so it's kind of similar yeah would you be interested in getting your accredited mental health

social work eventually yeah yeah for sure I I definitely am because I think I will end up probably and more for my own sustainability in this sector and in our in his career as well. Like I think, yeah, for sure, I definitely want to move towards that accredited mental health space or to get that registration to move into more of that private practice space. But I know for sure that I will never, I don't see myself in the short term or long term moving into a space in private practice where I'm doing like five days a week. And you've got like five clients at a time. I think for me that would suck at the absolute passion for me. Yeah. And that's more just because I try and put it, like I do put a lot of, not saying that

people who do do that don't put in the amount of passion or effort or whatever that they might like but i think it can come into like obviously that's when those the business model side of things start creeping in because it is a fee for service generally even with the medicare and stuff and you've got to you know weigh that up and be able to live as well and pay registration and insurances and all the rest of it so i don't ever want to get caught where i've got to choose between oh i've got to see extra clients just to try and make up for for expenses over here i i want to try and hold that space so it's not like that for me. Yeah.

As I was going through my learnings, I had some incredible mentors and wonderful placement opportunities and that's usually why I say I want to supervise students and I want to give back to those who are coming up the ranks. Do you get an opportunity to do that given that you have had such wonderful mentorship through your counselling placement and then also your formal learning? Is that something that's within scope at Bonados?

both to staff members, like colleagues, but also do you get to supervise students in that role? I don't do as much. Like we definitely, I don't directly supervise students. And I don't think for me as well, I feel in myself, I'm not at that point yet either, given that I'm still learning a whole lot, even about our field. I'm only quite young into it in terms of even full-time work. Like this is my first full-time role coming out of the university space, so all my other roles are being part-time or yeah, mostly just part-time.

So, yeah, no, I think in the future for sure, I think it would be really good because I actually want to get to a point and I spoke about this with my supervisor and the guy who mentored, his name's Ian Hanslow, sorry Ian, but threw out like that. He's not practicing anymore. So if you want to, he does supervision type stuff, but he doesn't do clinical practice anymore. He's kind of like semi-retired in that space. But we talked about that and it's something I would like to offer another emerging social worker or counselor in the future and I'd be able to pass that same sort of learning

board and it's interesting as well because there's actually a big part of the private practice work or a big framework that we use that I was taught and that I very much align my practice with is narrative therapy and there's a book called and I can I was going to see that but I'll read out the title it's called reimagining narrative therapy through practice stories and auto ethnography and in it is is discussions on this kind of like auto-ethnigraphy pedagogy, a way of teaching. And it talks about this way of learning to know the work, you've got to be in the work. And it's in that learning, it's by way of an apprenticeship, whereby the apprentice comes

to acquire a skilled vision of the mentor that you're with, of the practice frameworks that you're learning. And part of that is very important in developing yourself as a worker, or as a therapist or as a social worker or whatever you've a label might be as a counsellor. And so that's something I'm becoming quite acquainted with and wanting to pass on eventually when I think it's a, where I think I'm more at that stage as well. Yeah.

Yeah, nice. What's something you find really challenging about the work that you're doing at the moment that people might not expect or something that you didn't expect going in? I think being in social work, we definitely understand. And I think we definitely acknowledge and discuss and learn a lot about the systematic issues in our field and in our different practice settings. But I just didn't probably realize how bad it was. And that's probably maybe my opinion. But I've definitely got there's definitely enough research out there to try.

No, I like that, especially within a very neoliberal point in time and economy. But yeah, I think realizing how much our services, especially the NGO or the government services that offer service. without a fee, how much there's just burdens on staff that are, you know, the responsibilities and areas they have to cover and sort of demand they have to meet is just unrealistic and it's relentless where there's huge burnout, huge significant burnout or moral injury in that sort of sense. And to me, I didn't realize, I knew it wasn't good, but I didn't realize how bad it was. And then the amount of services that are at capacity or losing funding or parts of their funding to offer particular services that are really needed.

And I think it's that level of like the demand keeps growing, yet we're seeming to not match that level of need. And even I find even in my work as a caseworker at Banados, so that's the role as casework, I find that we're holding a lot more families longer than past the 16 week mark because there is very limited capacity to refer on to, or there's only particular referral pathways such as, you know, family preservation is for DCJ. And community-based referrals have been down in terms of capacity or reducing capacity for a while.

Or there's just not a lot of, like there might only be 10% leeway for that, whereas 90% goes to those DCJ referred pathways. So, yeah, I think that for sure has been one of the biggest shocks, real-life shocks. Like, you read about it and we talk about it. And it's something I've definitely noticed in my other roles. but I think working in more of that full-time role in an area where there is so much need and because you're trying to give that holistic service, yeah, it can be really difficult because sometimes when you're sitting with, I don't really know what to do here or how to move

forward with this, with the family or, yeah. And if there are services that aren't ready to receive or there's no exit strategy obvious, does that just mean you lose funding because you're going to continue to provide the service but you don't get anything beyond that week, Mark? No, actually, it's interesting that you say that because for at least the DCJ-funded NGOs, there's a whole recommissioning about to commence in our sort of area,

so with children and family services. And part of that recommissioning is going to be a lot of changes to capacity, especially for our program. Like now, I think our program's being recognised. I don't think I can speak too much on it yet because it's technically not formalised and I would have this very wrong probably as well, or there's a chance I'd get this very wrong

because it's still in limbo, I guess, on what this looks like. But there is definitely recommission happening for the DCJ-funded TEI and even the safety and family together well-being. So like Family Prez, Intensive Family Prez models as well. But I know part of it is that they're actually going to build on capacity for our program knowing that that's what we're holding and sitting with. And there should be space and time for us to do more. So actually it's kind of, especially with the research that's been done on our program through Sydney,

uni, I think it was. It's come out with some really good, like it was an evaluation of our program. So it's come out with some really good and strong points going forward. So hopefully the points that they recommend will be implemented into the recommissioning for us and other services as well. That's wonderful because you put so much time and effort into gathering statistics and reporting things and you think where does this go? does anyone actually look at it? It sounds as though people are actually looking at it

and they're making change that's going to be meaningful. Yeah, no, exactly. And how to make, I guess, and I guess a big part from what I'm understanding and seeing in patterns or trends is that they're wanting to try and keep, and fair enough, I agree with it, trying to keep families away from that DCJ or that statutory child protection system

and de-escalate things before it gets to that point as much as you can because you're going to get better outcomes, for sure, and build on people's capacities before it gets to that really, really crisis point where removals have to happen or very invasive casework strategies have to be implemented, you know, to get change, if any. So, yeah, I think it's actually a better, and that gives me hope. That gives us hopefully all hope that that's happening. Yeah.

And in addition to that hope, what keeps you going? What are the better parts of the role that make you love it? Oh, look, in both the counselling work and the case work, I love just getting up every day. really working with people like hearing people's journeys hearing their stories you know seeing what resilience or what resistance they've already committed to it before the point they even got in contact with our service and hearing their aspirations and inspirations on change and what that looks like for them and genuinely seeing people do it like getting to a point where they once were and being able to really and I think that's why you could

have a really reflective practice and to put time towards your reflective practice to develop it. But really understanding where you've seen someone they've come in or when they've entered your program or whatever and where it's got up to where they've either not needing a service anymore or moved on to another service because that's something that they're really wanting. It's huge. I think it's significant.

And I think that's something I really, really like about this work is just saying people do some pretty incredible things and some of really dire situations. Yeah. And that taught me a lot, like even in my second placement, So what kind of led me into this field at Bonados and working with children and families in particular? Because I actually really wanted just to work in the mental health space, which I've had a fair bit, like in terms of my young career, I've had, I think, a fair bit of experience in. Not so much the inpatient wards and such, but I've seen those that kind of work.

And not for me, but yeah, I never had this idea to go there, but it wasn't until I did that first placement at Gateway. And my second placement was also like a huge complementing building on skill and capacity. for me as a worker was with DCJ, but at the Joint Child Protectional Response Program. So JCPRP, they love acronyms, right? We all love acronyms. So JCPRP was previously known as Jurt, and I did my final placement there, and boy, it was at IOT. But I learned a lot, and I still hold a lot from that, especially with learning how to sit

with risk, learning how to have those tough conversations with people and family in a respectful and ethical way that doesn't, you know, come across as authoritative or, authoritarian-like, but then also working the situations, especially because of that unit in particular, it focused on child abuse that got to the point. Like it is at the other end, it is at that point in the end, but child abuse that got to the point of needing a criminal investigation. So seeing that side of it, but then being able to know how to have a conversation or at least be informed on how to have a conversation to someone who's especially children who have experienced child sexual assault and knowing how to respond to that in a way that's going to be

hopefully dignifying and responsive and helpful for the person or for the young person who's telling it, which was an area where I found very uncomfortable to begin with. I think I'd dissociated for like, you know, the first month of that place, but just trying to figure like, oh my God, Jesus, you know, and but what it taught me and built home was just so significant and led me then to go, yep, this is where I want it. Not there in particular, but in the children and family space and building. on and hearing one, trying to keep children safe and giving them a voice where possible, but then also knowing that families can achieve and have the sort of, I guess, the family

life that they want with the right supports and resources. And I know it's still very early on in the process for you, but you've had exposure to quite a lot of other departments and services. Is there any other kind of social work that's interested you as you've gone through? Yes, for sure. I think somewhere I've always found a lot of interest, and this is back in that mental health space, but in particular, is working with people who experience psychosis-related conditions. And I think that's a really niche space in there, but moving away from the more traditional models, I guess, of working with people with psychosis and moving more into areas where, you know, it's informed by like the hearing voices network. open dialogue. The open dialogue models are huge, especially more over in like north of

Finland, so I think in that Lapland area where there's work being done there in open dialogue, which are these like very alternate ways, well for them it's the very predominant way, but for us for alternate ways, I'll work with people who experience psychosis. And yeah, being able to get into that space as well and getting some experience would be just, I think, yeah, it'd be quite for me, or one intriguing, but then also hopefully something different for people who do experience those conditions because of how debilitating they can be. But then also how much we can learn from those experiences as well and what they mean for people. Yeah.

Because there's so much stigma around it, right? There's that pathologising language. There's something wrong with you kind of thing. And I've spoken with a few other social workers who are really passionate about working with people who have diagnosed personality disorders and a kind of shift away from there's something wrong with you to you experience the world in a different way and how do we support you to engage effectively? Yeah. So yeah, that's so fascinating. Yeah, it is. And that's and I think really then, like for me, it's really being able to tap in more and discovering more about these other ways

of working with people who experience difference, right? And exactly what you were. sort of saying, yeah, it's been about how do people experience the world differently from what we do and stop, you know, trying to, I guess,

not allow someone to experience parts of that. Look, and I'm not saying there's definitely psychosis where people feel really unsafe or their family or partners or community might feel really unsafe, but there's a way of being able to understand that within, I guess, an intersectional approach and a very systematic, I guess,

approach. And especially with alternate frameworks, like I encourage anyone to, at the power threat meaning framework that's come out of the, I think it was sort of developed and looked at in the UK by the British Psychological Society, but that's an awesome model that can be looked at and in its essence it sort of looks at, you know, the power that operates in people's lives, the threat that makes, but then the meaning that can be made out of it and that can look so different for everyone. So yeah.

Because it must be so incredibly isolating and othering and really just hard to be part of society, part of social circles, part of even just holding down work. And as we know, all the things that that affects in terms of other demographics. Yeah, for sure. And I think especially with when we look at, like there's definitely been more of awareness around mental health, which is fantastic. But it's interesting because I've been reading a book. He was an author of Changing Minds, but I think it's called Mental State is his book. And he's by Dr. Mark Cross. He's a psychiatrist in Australia. And he's done a lot of work in this sort of area as well. But there was a chapter I read in there and I sort of like something was always there for me but I just couldn't put in words but he I think summed it out quite nicely which was like we'll put an awareness on it where he's like there's certain mental health conditions which are becoming so prioritised or accepted more where you know experiences such as depression and anxiety are becoming more there's more awareness around those conditions and experiences there's more more encouragement for people to go and have a conversation like anyone not just a mental health professionals or a social worker or a counsellor it's like anyone can participate in

this collective effort to try and better people's mental health and well-being, but there's still those experiences or conditions such as schizophrenia or psychosis or even borderline, you know, for those personality-based disorders that are still not getting that level of recognition, yet they're the people that can also just, well, you know, statistically experience incredible isolation and incredible deprivation from social connection. Yeah, and I think that was a really interesting point. How do we focus on even those conditions to be that, that people can not feel fear when they hear someone say, I've got schizophrenia, or they're seeing someone in the street talking to themselves

or experiencing the world a different way, where it doesn't necessarily instill fear, but rather can instill a sense of how could I approach this? Or if this person, you know, if I was going to have a conversation, what would this look like? Yeah, so I think that was quite interesting as well, a bit insightful. Are you the kind of social worker who will, in your spare time, watch films that are kind of related to the work that you do,

or they kind of, you try to distance yourself and get a bit more fantasy in there? No, I'm a nerd at heart, especially for our field. You know, I've even written down like a list of books to speak about for people to recommend it when we wrap up around for people to explore further and things that I felt really helpful for my practice and theoretical frameworks. But yeah, no, I do a lot of training and readings outside of my work based on the human services sector as a whole. I watch a whole lot of documentaries about this type of stuff and I find that.

that only because I think if you don't go looking for it, you're only going to be sort of potentially subjected to just a couple of ways of working or seeing things. Whereas I think if you go off and explore, especially in different countries where they're doing particular work or particular approaches with people, it sort of, you kind of go, oh, wow, like that excites me because it's really innovative. Like it's about how do we continually grow and change our practice to something meaningful for people that we work with and something that's going to have some sort of sustainability to it or benefit, not to say the others aren't benefiting or are more of a benefit

for that person or those families or whatever it is, whoever you're working with. So I think that's why I do a lot of that. But yeah, I definitely do a lot of that reading and watching and going off to, you know, on Sundays I'll go off to different trainings or on a Saturday. I'll do a lot of like online training through Pezzy. They're fantastic. I don't know. Many people might know about them.

I'm sure they do. But Pezzie, you do great online training. You do it in your own time type thing. So, but I definitely do a lot of it, yeah. Yeah, nice. As much as I can. Yeah. Well, I'll put the resource from Dr. Cross and the power threat meaning and the books that

you mentioned, but it sounds like there are some other things that you're keen to shout out. Yes. Yeah, for sure. And I think for people that they're interested to look into and they're kind of, so they're not all in the same fields. They're not all in child protection, nor are they all in all mental health. But some of it, you know, different in like domestic and family violence and that type of thing as well. But some of the recommended resources I've got, especially if you're more,

if you're interested to explore a bit about like what narrative therapy is and other ways of working in that in those capacities or just hearing even particular people speak on issues or experiences or the work in general so the first one i've got is this is a narrative therapy related and this is where it all began for me resource but it's narrative means to therapeutic ends these are all books one around working with men who use violence it's a bit of a different alternative approach but it's invitations to responsibility i think by alan jenkins he did some really good work around that with men and looking at a different way to be able to try and have been to see the impacts of their use of violence. A really good resource that I use both in private practice and in my casework practice is she's a psychologist over in England but she's got a big book and on board it like it's got all these different exercises and printouts that you can use but it's called the therapeutic treasure box for working with children and adolescents with developmental trauma. There's what we talked about, the open dialogue and power threat meaning models. And an author that I've been really into lately, I'm sure, you've probably come

across in his podcast before and maybe you've potentially heard of him too, but Gable Matte, so like the myth of normal in the realm of the hungry ghost. I'm reading that one at the moment about problematic use with substances and it's fantastic. And when the body says no, so a lot of his work around that. So yeah, and I think something that gets a bit more into the philosophy background around our sciences and how it informs our work with people and the human services is another British guy but it's called aping mankind that's by Raymond Talas so I recommend them as pretty good very diverse resources and different things but I think those books if I had to synthesize all the books I've read have helped me take

part bits and pieces from each I guess area of the human services yeah yeah no that's so good. And have you watched any films or TV shows or things where perhaps the type of work you do are represented really well? Not that I can think of at the top of my head. I haven't watched something recently or quite even in the last six months that was probably really relevant. I suppose when I do watch things, I try and keep it disconnected as much as I can to other things because sometimes, you know, the last thing you want to watch is something around I don't know, child abuse or domestic and family violence or the abuse of our system sometimes and go to bed and you think, wow, I'm not sitting with me for whatever reason.

Yeah. Whereas a book you can kind of just put down and come back to. You can come back to and you read it that you're sort of, you can sort of judge, oh, I think I can do this chapter or I might want to read this chapter without it being too mentally exhausting. But no, I can't think of anything at the moment that I've really seen in the last six months that would be really resonating with the work. actually one of the ones I watched, it's not a documentary such, but it's been, it was actually

recommended to me to have a look at and it's, it's making the rounds all over social media, so I'm sure people are probably at least aware of it, but it's new on Netflix. It was adolescent, that sort of short mini-series, four episodes. Yeah, it's about this sort of wave or extreme wave of misogyny and very right-wing views on extremist views on women and then, like I say, how they intersects with social media and then this kind of of, you know, this play out of then how a young boy then used violence. So that is something, it's not a documentary or anything, but I think it's really relevant to potentially something that we're seeing more and more of in our everyday lives or at least in our societies and communities.

Yeah, cool. Yeah. No, that's something I haven't heard of before. Yes. It's not, look, it could be quite confronting and probably is quite confronting and obviously whatever people's experiences are with this, but it's very, I'm glad they're starting to do something or at least portraying some of these these more social issues even in like non-documentary short films. I mean, look, there's a lot to critique about it as well, for sure, like any healthy and any piece of work that someone produces, but I think it's, I know it's been making the rounds on social media and people, I know in my office, it's been a big centre of conversation, so I have to watch it to join in, I guess, and see what it was all about,

but I thought it was, it's an interesting watch. So, yeah. Yeah, good. Yeah. Is there anything else before we finish up that we haven't talked about that you really wanted to mention or any words of advice for people wanting to get into this sort of work. Yeah, I think we've pretty much touched on generally on most things. But I think in terms of words of advice or any kind of inspiration is just maybe it's not no, maybe it's not inspiration. I don't know. Just what sort of helps me keep going every day at least and is just being able to wake up

knowing like even if it's, I think sometimes we want to say huge, huge, huge change every time we go to work or every time we engage with our skills with people and you might want to see, you know, someone completely change their life around or a system completely change, but, you know, in reality of these types of things can take a while and, you know, fairly so and rightly so. And I think it's just holding onto those sort of moments of, I guess you might call them minor, but they're not minor when you really look at them and understand what it might mean for the person that you're working with or family or communities that you're working with. But yeah, really sort of like holding onto those moments where there's been,

even those sort of minor or smaller changes for someone and understanding what that actually might mean looking at their whole context or in their context. And yeah, I think that can be huge and rewarding for yourself even to see knowing that you're helping and doing something that you feel like is having an impact potentially. And I think that's huge. And it can be a comment, it could be a word,

it could be a certain way that the work has ended or a way that someone's been able to, you know, even just build on and develop a certain value, that they really wanted or grow confidence in themselves even just to be able to access particular resources or supports and i think that's huge significant yeah yeah and look to the people as well like i think another big thing is looking to the people that you work with or the people that you know of in the field and what they're doing like even listening and coming onto your podcast and hearing a couple of other episodes and like hearing the work that people are doing and the fields that they're

in it's like whoa that is so interesting or that is quite significant you could hear that or that could be quite significant for someone or a system or a community and you think to yourself like yeah there's a whole lot of us doing some really good stuff in the field and working with people in particular ways that are helpful or innovative and different but also hearing the amazing stories more importantly of what those clients or families are doing and achieving for themselves and building on for themselves and yeah i think always holding on to that is just the best way to go forward sometimes Yeah, you mentioned the support structure within your own team in terms of being able to debrief, being scaffolded a bit, I guess, in terms of, yes, it's really difficult content, but I feel like I have the support from my team, from my leaders in order to make the work realistic, longer term for you. Yeah.

But it's really reassuring to hear that the structures are being interrogated to the point where there may be some additional funding coming up. there may be change that is really meaningful in terms of you being able to do the work and in terms of the people that you support being able to access the right care at the right time. So that's really nice to hear because I feel like we don't get that quite enough. No, no. And I've got to say the organisation that I'm with in my program with my managers and stuff, it is really supportive that way. I feel at least across the board in our team, and even amongst ourselves as like workers not in leadership who the way that we support each other I think is huge and quite significant and I think that really does make or break your experience

in a particular workplace or fearhood is the workers can be very isolating and you know very hard as it is and if you don't have that sort of your own connectedness to that essentially do us what we preach you know and yeah having that is such a protective and benefit factor for you I think And I know it's made a huge difference for me in my everyday. Like just knowing you go to the office and, you know, making a cup of coffee or something and just having a bit of a chat before we get into the day about, you know, just weekend before, what we're all up to, you know, what we got ready for the day.

Yeah. And giving those words and encouragement to each other, I think you're huge. It's like, hey, that was a really tough situation. That was difficult. And yeah, I can say that it would impact you, but I think you did really well with this and this. And, you know, like hearing those words, it's so much different to always hearing what you need to do differently or what you need to do better.

Let's say that's not important, but still highlighting those other things of what you did do quite well. And even like as a side note thing, something that I've quite recent, I think was in the last year, other workers, this is more related to my private practice, but in the centre that I'm in there, we've started like a small interest, we called it an interest group, bi-monthly, there's workers from caseworkers, counsellors, both counsellors, caseworkers, whoever they are, we've got like a small group, we get together of an afternoon and we just sort of, it's like a peer-to-peer supervision group, but we just talk about themes in the work and what we're seeing

and just sit with it and discuss it and just hear different things and we go out for dinner afterwards. Like that's that collective self-care, I think that's really important. And what a good way for you to know the people that you're potentially referring to for a service. You can actually say to your people, hey, there's this person, this is what I know of them, this is, and you can try to match as much as you can within the resources that are available. Yeah. You might say this person in that surface is probably a better fit for you as a client. For sure. Absolutely. Yeah. And you build those connections in collaborative practice,

which is something that is so important. Is that collaborative practice that we don't have to do it all on our own? We need to all work together to achieve the best possible outcomes of the people that we work with, all the communities that we serve. Especially in private practice. For sure. Just look how isolating it. They'd be missing that. Yeah. And it is. And I'm That's why a lot of people join this interest group is because, you know, they feel that if they're in their private practices, their main sort of domain of working, it's like it is very isolating because you don't have a team. You don't necessarily have, like you might have an office or a building that everyone sort of uses and utilises, but you're on different schedules. You may not all sit at lunch with each other.

Like it's all of those things that you miss that you need to keep yourself sane in the work. Yeah. Yeah. I think my only other takeaway is like from your desire at the beginning. of this journey to working with clients at all levels to support their engagement. You've talked about the privilege of being welcomed into spaces and into their homes. And it really just highlights for me, social work is relational work. It is about that person and your connection with them in order to even start to begin

the work that you need to do. So you're doing so much work to build that up in what you do. Yeah. No, I think that was a really, really good. Takeaway point that hopefully, yeah, I've alluded to at least in some of my waffles. Exactly, that relational work and being very conscious of that and trying to invite that. And, yeah, being aware of those your power, like obviously the power dynamics are there, but how do you treat that with respect, especially when you are in people's homes.

And it can be as simple as, hey, I'm going to take off my shoes before I come in, you know, unless I say glass ever on the ground. I'm not doing that. But yeah, yeah, you sort of assess that on yourself. But yeah. Of course. Yeah. Yeah, that's so great. And you've got so much more ahead of you. You're just getting started. So really looking forward to seeing where it takes you.

I'm excited to see where it all goes and where the future holds for social work and for the, you know, I guess the human services as a whole. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, Heath so much for sharing all of that, for taking the time out to speak with me. And, yeah, look forward to seeing where to from here for you. And, yeah, please keep in touch. And people can reach out to you, I guess, if they have any other questions. Yeah, for sure. They can reach out. out, definitely LinkedIn or whatnot. But yeah, so for sure. And I appreciate having me on as well, inviting me on and being able to share a bit more around another piece to the whole collective puzzle of social work and experiences. So it's been a really good experience. I think just being able to talk about and even being really reflected for me in this process as well,

about where it started, where it is now and what the future is going to look like. So I appreciate that. Yes, I'm glad. It's my pleasure. Thanks again. Thank you. Thanks for joining me this week. If you'd like to continue this discussion or ask anything of either myself or Heath, please visit my anchor page at anchor.fm.fm slash social work spotlight. You can find me on Facebook, Instagram and Blue Sky, or you can email SW Spotlight Podcast at gmail.com. I'd love to hear from you.

Please also let me know if there is a particular topic you'd like discussed, or if you or another person you know would like to be featured on the show. next episode's guest is brayden a social work leader and supervisor from new zealand he has worked most of his career in the field of child protection and has recently completed his doctorate which explored how child protection social workers can support children to thrive after they have experienced adversity i release a new episode every two weeks please subscribe to my podcast so you will notify when this next episode is available see you next time