Social Work Spotlight - Episode 135: Braden

Episode Date: May 9, 2025

In this episode I speak with Braden, a social work leader and supervisor from New Zealand. He has worked most of his career in the field of child protection and has recently completed his doctorate which explored how child protection social workers can support children to thrive after they have experienced adversity.Links to resources mentioned in this week’s episode:Training through Social Care Solutions with Auntie Tammy Solomon of Mullah Mara - https://www.socialcaresolutions.com.au/our-trainingBraden’s business Relate Services - https://www.relateservices.co.nz/our-storyDr Bruce Perry - https://www.bdperry.com/Signs of Safety approach - https://www.signsofsafety.net/what-is-sofs/This episode's transcript can be viewed here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BOthZ_k1N9cI5Ak_CffARgxDBGwZs1Q0jNaYIk8VhT8/edit?usp=sharingThanks to Kevin Macleod of incompetech.com for our theme music.

I begin today by acknowledging the Gadigal people of the Eura Nation, traditional custodians of the land on which I record this podcast, and pay my respects to their elders past and present. I extend that respect to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people listening today. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples have an intrinsic connection to this land and have cared for country for over 60,000 years, with their way of life having been devastated by colonisation. Hi and welcome to Social Work Spotlight where I showcase different areas of the profession each episode.

I'm your host, Yasmin Lupus, and today's guest is Braden, a social worker and supervisor from New Zealand. He has worked most of his career in the field of child protection and has recently completed his doctorate, which explored how child protection social workers can support children to thrive after they have experienced adversity. Thanks so much, Braden, for coming on to the podcast. I'm looking forward to having to chat with you about your social work experience. Thanks for having me. It's awesome to be here. Yeah, I always ask firstly when you started as a social worker and what brought you to the profession. Yeah, so I started around 2013, but I had kind of been doing stuff that was related to social work up until that point from when I left school.

So it was kind of one of those situations where I fell into social work. I was in living in Samo for a few months and working and were victims of domestic violence and sexual abuse over there. And it was one of those realisation moments of, ah, this is social work, this is what I want to do. I'd always been passionate about working with children and worked with children up until that point in my life. And so, yeah, for me, it just became that natural right, this is the right fit. And I always laughed because I ended up working most of my career in the child protection space. And I distinctly remember, I must have been in high school driving along a bridge with mum and we're talking about what I wanted to do and I kind of knew I wanted to work with people but I wasn't really sure what that looked like. I was good at business and whatnot. So she was like, oh, you should go do accounting or law or all of this sort of stuff. And then I remember she said to me, I should go work in social work. My resource to her was I don't want to be a social worker that removes children, which I just find quite entertaining and ironic given that I ended up working in child protection. And I think it shows that a lot of people's understanding of social work, particularly

trial protection sort of social work, is that it's just removals. But there's so much more to it than that. Yeah. So from there, I went and studied my master's applied social work and started working as a social worker in that kind of child protection area. Yeah. Yeah. And you've also studied business before that.

Was that kind of because your mind was a bit more business focused? and what translation do you think that study has had on your social work practice? Yeah, great question. I started studying business because mum made me go and study something when I left school. And I didn't know what I wanted to do at that point. So I did that, quit that, and then ended up finishing it after a kind of a year or two break. And the reason I didn't want to do that, and I didn't want to work in that sort of managerial sphere. And I think that it's really interesting now because I've got a really unique skill set and have done quite a lot of leadership and management roles in social work.

And certainly my management and business skills have helped me significantly in terms of understanding how organizations work, understanding how to lead people. And I think when I look at leadership and then I look at social work, they're very much aligned in a lot of ways. It's about working out what are people's goals. You know, if you're in leadership, that's around organisations. But if you're with social workers, that's your clients. Working out what their goals are and how to get there and walking alongside the journey with people in that kind and caring and empathetic way. Really effective leaders are kind and empathetic. And do use a lot of those same skills as social workers do.

The differences, I think, thinking about it in terms of a bigger scale and an organizational change. and then you've got budgets and HR and all that sort of stuff, which you have to do learning about. But I think those skills between the two are absolutely transferable across there. Yeah. So it's definitely been a huge help. Yeah. And as part of your master's, what were your placements? And how did that kind of help shift your focus going into the profession? Yeah. So I was working as a social worker whilst I was studying. I was in a really unique position there.

So I actually did one of my placements within statutory child protection system in New Zealand. And then I did my second one in a family violence space. So we had a what was called the ISR Integrated Service Response, which is an assessment table that met each day. So I actually sat at that table to help support with a lot of risk assessment and initial plans whenever police have been called out to a family violence episode. But as part of that, I work and when and spent some time with former's refuge where I work, and built relationships there. So really developed a strong passion for more holistic view of child protection. For me, I think about the role of child protection is not just about the child,

but it's actually about the family because there's always issues going on with the parents and they're facing challenges as well. That then impact on the children, hence my child protection becomes involved. So thinking about that placement in the family violence space really shifted my thinking about how do we work effectively with families across the whole spectrum and not seeing my role as just focusing on child safety, but actually trying to improve the wellbeing and the support across the whole, you know, every member of the family, because if you see them, children is interconnected with their family, then it's about the whole of family well-being. So yeah, that was,

that was definitely one of the way that shifted it. And now today I work in a family violence, training business as well, doing training and business development for them. So that's one of my many hats that I wear in my current self-employed life. And I think for me, I ended up working a lot in family violence in the child protection space. So have a long history of involvement in that sector, which has been amazing for my development and growth as a practitioner. Did your other studies, I do want to get into the PhD, but did your other studies in terms of the grad dep and psychology, Did that come before social work? How did that feed into the other studies?

I don't know the timing of it anymore. It all blows, I guess. Yeah. So for me, I found social training was generic training and kind of touch on how that built into the doctor in the end. So for me, when I was working with children and in my doctor, I talk about the very first client I ever had who I called Sean and my doctor, which isn't his real name. And he'd had 45 placements, had a huge amount of trauma,

was in an unstable placement. And if we didn't do something different for him in terms of supporting him, he would have bounced around placement after placement after placement. And so for me, as a social worker with him being one of my first clients, I had no idea how to help him and how to support him. I had no idea how to help him in terms of his overcoming his experience as a trawler. and that's where I kind of came to a bit of a crossroads and why I studied psychology and did the great dip of that was because I wanted to understand how to most effectively

and so I made a decision either I'm going to go down a clinical psych route and retrain down that route because I don't feel like I had enough knowledge and skills in that or I can stick in the social work group but I'm going to have to do a lot of work to develop an understanding of trauma and to develop an understanding of how to actually effectively work with children in that way. So that's why I did the Grandf and Psych at that time was, I was actually thinking at that point, I was going to go down the psych route. And then I kind of did that and realized, this is individualistic. It doesn't align with my values about collectivism and thinking about how the structures of society

impact on individual well-being as well. So I'm really glad I stuck for social work in the end. But that was, yeah, that's why I kind of did that. And that point was to figure out where I got to and how it played out. Yeah, which demonstrates to me in that work you were doing, you weren't just going through the motions. You could have easily just said, this is my statutory responsibility. These are the options available to this young person and just done the thing, just found a placement or address the issue instead of actually delving into how do we prevent, you know, 45 happening again to someone else.

or from this same person going through the same motions with the next person. So that's incredible dedication and inside and determination and feeling like there's a responsibility there to stop this cycle that this poor kid was going through. I think like one of the things that really irritates me about social work is, and this is a systemic and a structural component, but I think actually as a profession, social work needs to take responsibility for as well. I call it the convey about social work where these children and families come to child projections attention 10, 15 times until it gets to such a point where drastic intervention is required, such as removal. What I see that as is I see that as a failing of intervention and a failing of opportunity for those other 10 to 15 times, that actually if the right services, right supports,

right interventions had have been provided. to that family, then hopefully we can make enough change that those families never come back. And so I think for me, I became really disillusioned after a while working in child protection because, you know, you just end up doing the same old stuff and you'd assess something and you'd close it. And I think in New Zealand, the vast majority of statutory social workers at initial assessments and then they close it and the proportion that goes on into intervention or and I know their work of community services and refer out and all that sort of stuff, but we need to rethink the way that we deliver services, both structurally and systemically,

because I think those have a huge impact on the way that things are resourced or government contracts in terms of services or government funding, obviously, as well. But if we keep doing the same old thing, Albert Einstein says that that's the definition of insanity, which I find. I think that's a really good quote, and it's kind of one of those things that have stuck with me. And so, yeah, it's how do we actually meaningfully make a difference as social workers and families' lines? And I think that requires us to go above and beyond. And it requires us to not just look at what our statutory role is within that. It's actually that we're there to make a difference. That's one of the core foundations of social workers to improve individual and societal well-being overall.

So I think that fundamentally requires us to approach things differently in that way. No, you're so right in terms of all of us got into this profession because we wanted to make a difference. We wanted to help with the change that we needed to see or that we could see that was realistic. But then we get stuck in this cycle, this conveyor belt of, well, this is the system that we work within. And it is really hard to challenge that. The status quo is there for a reason because it's ingrained. I wonder then how you felt the confidence or the capacity. to step outside of that. And it sounds as though founding your own company and being on a board as well.

I'm keen to chat with you about the New Zealand equivalent of ASW, how you manage to make that leap, that progression. And the confidence to do that, I think, is incredible. But what were the steps that you needed to take in order to be able to do that? Yeah, that's a really good question. For me, I am really passionate about leadership and social work. work and I think my skills within and my experiences within practice have led me into a position where I don't see things just in terms of the micro. I actually see the structure when I see

those bigger connections. And I think that's partly due to management. I think that's partly due to my social work. I think it's partly due to who I am. So for me, I want the profession of social work to be the best profession it can be. I can see incredible potential in that and the work that we do. And so for me, and I think you're exactly right that the systems and the structures that we operate within are so powerful that they shift our practice. So for me, advocacy and leadership is so important within this space. So that's why I went on to the board of ANZW. Initially was actually, I felt that at the time, the association wasn't living up to its full potential. And I wanted to bring on a younger voice into that space. So did that. Did that?

and then ended up when our CEO left applied for the CEO role and became the CEO of ANSW as well, which was one of the most challenging yet rewarding growth experiences I've had in my life. There was just so much work that we did and I had an incredible team behind me that were, I'm a bit of a magpie, I say sometimes I joke, whereas I see starting things that I go off and do that. And often it's connected into a bigger strategy. but one of my biggest learnings in terms of leadership is taking people on the journey with me as to what I'm thinking and slowing myself down to be able to articulate what it is that we're doing or why we're doing it and why this is important. That's like I always constantly have to watch for myself. And so, yeah, that opportunity to lead and to advocate on behalf of the profession was just an incredible thing.

And I think for me, doing kind of my own work now and starting a company to try and, you know, do a whole bunch of contracting. work but trying to actually use my doctorate and use my knowledge and skills and translate that into meaningful practice and meaningful differences for people is what my next step is and I'm just in you know it's only been a month or two months actually now so it's still it's still very early days but that is something that I'm really excited about but also really scared about at the same time because you know you go from having a stable income where you get paid every fortnight to having some weeks where you don't get that same income and other weeks where you get bigger income. So it's about managing that and doing that.

I don't know if that answers your question, sorry. No, it absolutely does. And I think having that balance is probably what's made things stay afloat for you, is that you're not putting all your eggs in one basket. You're relying on a few different sources of income firstly. And you're allowing yourself the time and the space to really develop things instead of jumping in headfirst as much as you'd probably like to. to, you know, you're dipping your toes and you're figuring out what the space is like and what your service might look like within that. Yeah, absolutely. And I think for me, I have a tendency

to do a lot too quick. So for me, this is, you know, planning and thinking about what I want to be doing and how I can actually make a difference for children that have experienced trauma and adversity. It requires me to actually be really considered and planned within doing so. So, yeah, 100% agree because I will jump into 100 other things. And I've just realized this week I haven't spent any time in the last month on planning and doing stuff. So I'm like, okay, I've got to actually block time out for that. So I've got to use lots of these strategies to keep myself going in that way. I imagine that's freeing sometimes, though, to have a bit of a break from it and then come back with some fresh eyes. For me, it's ingrained in who I am and my purpose. And I think I've had

too much other commitments on that I haven't balanced effectively. So I've just not had the time to do it. I think for me, when I'm doing things that really fulfill my purpose and why I got into social work, that's when I get the most joy and energy from that. So I have an incredibly high work ethic. I think it scares people sometimes how much I can work in a week. And it doesn't phase me. But it's got to be stuff that's aligned and fulfills my vision. And I think that's where, I do a bit of supervision and stuff with people. And when that vision and alignment's not there with the organization or the work, that's when people really struggle.

And I know for myself, I've learned that about myself, that if I'm in a role where I'm not using my skills to the fullest ability, I'm not growing, it doesn't necessarily align with my vision. I get really bored. I get really discouraged. And I get really unmotivated. And it doesn't just affect my work life.

It affects every other part of my life. So for me, yeah, that's something that. I've learned and I think is so important that we do and social workers be able to connect our vision of why we got into this and constantly hold true to the why. I think that's the most powerful thing that can keep us sustained in what can be incredibly challenging work at times. Yeah, that makes sense. Keep that momentum going. Yeah. Tell me about your role at social care solutions. We have just had Mel a couple of episodes ago come on to the podcast, the CEO of the business, but what do you do for that?

Yeah, so I'm an independent consultant for them at the moment. So that means I kind of do a bit of everything, which is awesome. I was operations manager down here in the Southern States for nine months, and I looked after the assessors there. But as Mel would have spoken about, social care solutions, does a huge variety of work around projects and training and assessments is what it was originally started with. So at the moment, I do some training work.

I love imparting knowledge and helping people see those light bulb moments. It gives me so much joy. So I do a bit of training and also do assessments of foster carers and kinship carers, which I just love is one of those things that I love doing. It can be a lot of work if you want to do it properly and thoroughly. But it's so important, I think, having seen children that haven't had great experiences because of the foster carers, for me, that's one of the things that links in with my why. it's because actually we can help agencies to really understand people

and to understand what their strengths and vulnerabilities are and how to support them most effectively. We always talk about strengths, vulnerabilities and recommendations within our assessments. And for me, it's just, you know, we all have vulnerabilities. It's not about bringing people down, but it's about helping those that are working with them to truly understand what are the things that are going to be really difficult

helpful is foster and kinship care because I always say this to people that I'm working with in the sector, foster and kinship care is one of the hardest things that people will ever do. It's not, you know, you've got children that have experienced often really horrendous amounts of abuse and neglect and trauma. And so parenting them is in no way at all the same as what you would parent your own kids. They don't respond in the same way all the time. And so it's about you've got to have a lot of resilience and a lot of support to persevere through. And so, yeah, being able to articulate that and tell people's stories and honor people's stories throughout that journey of doing that assessment is a really beautiful and powerful thing, which I, yeah, gives me a lot of

joy. Yeah. And do you get to follow these fostering kinship carers further down the track and provide ongoing support, or are you just there for the assessments? Yeah, that's the one of the thing I I struggle with about it is that we're just there for the assessments. So we kind of make them spend 10 to 12 hours with them in a variety of different ways. And then we kind of write this giant report and say, okay, here you go, we're going to give this to the department or to the agency that they're working with. And for me, I think one of the things I have recognized myself is I really value that long-term relational work. Doing those assessments, I think is really important because it provides such a a quality piece of work that we can do in that short term. But for me, I kind of do miss that longer

term relational component of supporting them down the track as well. I imagine you'd then have to have good relationships with the services that are then going to be supporting ongoing. Do you have like networking meetings? How do you make sure that they have the support that they need? I mean, it's not your responsibility. The departments ultimately are the services or the funding bodies, but you need to feel confident that the services that you're referring to are equipped ongoing. Yeah, so we generally assess on behalf of the agency that will be supporting them. So we'll talk to them and keep them updated about the progress of the assessment as we go. But often there'll be what's called a panel meeting at the end of the assessment

where the agency have had a chance to read and we can go and talk about the assessment, what our findings were, what our recommendations are with them there. but it's not because everyone's so independent as an independence is there that's probably an area where that could be strengthened to really support but I think you know you're right the agencies are just under such pressure and time constraints there it can be a bit of a challenge for them sometimes and working for yourself effectively how do you come together as a team do you feel like you're part of a team if there are 70 people working for social care solutions how do you make sure you're all on the same page and that you feel supported internally.

Yeah, that's a great question. So I think that's one of the challenges. And I think working for yourself, you can either engage in that. You don't have to always engage in that, but you can absolutely do that. I think supervision is a really important component of that. And whilst I'm an independent contractor for social care, they have great support for assessors in terms of access to supervision and line support there. And then I know social care does lots of activities and events kind of for

staff as well. In my other work, I'm actually a lot more closely connected to people within that work. So in the family-deme-dine space, I work really closely with Debs, the founder of that. Yeah, so it kind of just depends on the different spaces. And I think if I didn't have that relational component with people, that would be really challenging for me because I'm a relational being and relational person and sitting at home by myself is not always fun. So, yeah, I ended up to someone at least once a day normally, if not a few different people, which is really lovely. Yeah, great.

We haven't actually talked about relate services. I'd love to know more about your business, that you're founding and the model and what you're hoping it will achieve. Yeah. So for me, I'm working at the moment on trying to develop a number of different streams. So number one is around working with children and families in order to support them to thrive and do really well. And then the second component is around supporting professionals at work in the space for children and families through professional development. And so my doctor was really

looking at how do we work effectively with children that have experienced trauma using a neurodevelopmental approach. And so wanting to provide training and stuff to professionals, but also then doing assessments and providing intervention guidance. For me, it's not about me doing all of the intervention is actually about supporting those that are around them to better understand the children's behaviours and responses and coaching them on what they can do. You know, you can go to therapy once a week for an hour, but that's only one hour out of, I don't even know how many hours a week, right? But actually, with the people around the child, you can provide lots of opportunities for intervention and therapeutic moments with that child spread out throughout

that child's whole week. So rather than it being one little isolated component of therapeutic support, you can shift and work with the environment and the schools and the carers and parents. I can work with everyone to actually be able to do things that are going to really support and help that child to thrive. So it's like scaffolding rather than just a support beam. Yeah, exactly. And for me, it's not about it tick and flick to services. it's about actually, okay, if that child's got difficulties with self-regulation, how do we create lots of moments throughout that child's day and week for that child to regulate so that dysregulation can build up, right?

If we're really stressed and we, then one more thing happens is the thing that breaks the camel's back for us and it overwhelms us. And I think that's what happens for children as well in that something triggers them, they become stressed, something else happens, they become a little bit more stressed. and actually that's when we can get those vital flight responses that we often see or talk about. And so for me, it's exactly that

scaffolding, building up constantly opportunities for regulation. And we can regulate ourselves in 30 seconds. It doesn't take long. So I'm not talking about like teachers or parents or caregivers having to do an hour of regulation stuff. It could be about doing something that

is really mindful, going to the parking, swinging on a swing to has a really regulating. It's a rhythmic movement, which is what really helps us. So it's about identifying what those children's needs are developmentally. What are their biggest challenges and issues in the moment? And the way I kind of think about it, and this is based on Bruce Perry's work and what I picked up in my doctor, was that our lower brain is that sense of safety. It's really important. We've got to help children to feel safer from their environments first. And then it's about regulation.

If you're yelling and screaming and upset, it's really difficult to have a relationship with someone. Actually, you've got to help them regulate. And then you can actually do the relational work. If you don't do the relational work, you can't have a conversation with someone. Whenever I'm talking about this and training it on this sort of thing, I say to people, I'm like, you know,

has anyone ever told someone to calm down and that's been effective? And it's not, right? It's not an effective response. because actually that's a cortical heavy thing. We're trying to get into what I could top-down regulate rather than actually helping them to see where they're at at the moment, demonstrating empathy and understanding of their emotions and helping to co-regulate.

And I think that's really important for children. So for me, it often is intervention-wise it's looking at safety, regulate, relate, reasoning and at more kind of understanding of that. If the child doesn't have the ability to regulate their emotions, any other therapeutic inputs are not necessarily going to be effective or helpful. So for me, it's about thinking about that across the whole child's week, giving them lots and lots of opportunities for intervention across that.

And the other really important thing within all of that is that those regulation opportunities happen in a culturally sensitive way and help that child build a connection to their culture. And also that happened in parallel with relationships. So we don't just send the kid off to the room to regulate their emotions. Actually, you might sit beside them and do something with them. I remember this one day I was working as a supervisor in Child Protection and had this young boy who would have been about seven. And he had incredible amounts of emotional dysregulation to the point that his education plan was only, he was at school for two hours a day.

And anyway, I got a phone call after about half an hour this morning and said, hey, look, you need to come pick him up. So went out to the school, picked him up, and he had this giant, basically tree stick that he was carrying around, running around the school. And so got him into the car and took him back into the office. And I grabbed my little resource kit of sensory-based stuff and took him into a room. And he was incredibly dysregulated prior to me taking him into one of the little side rooms. He was running around the office and unable to sit still, unable to really function because he was in that such heightened distrault. regulate insane. We sat there and we blew bubbles for literally three minutes with him. And when he first started blowing bubbles, he couldn't blow one at all. You know, he was like really forcing it out,

unable to do it. And so just by sitting there and doing this really simple activity that was fun, he didn't know I was trying to regulate his emotions by doing so. And breathing. Yeah, and it was breathing. And, you know, I said to him, I was like, I want you to try and put the biggest bubble you can. How are you going to do that? He's like, I don't know. And so I showed. And so I showed him. And so I showed him. And I said to him, I said to him, I was like, him and I was like I took a really slow deep breath and modeled to him how to blow a big bubble and eventually he was able to do this and we just we sat there for four or five minutes and he walked out and he would joke but they were like did you drug him because he was so calm and actually that's the power of sensory regulation and so for me that's what I try and do

with children and families has helped them to understand some of those challenges of why that child is might be dysregulated in the moment, but then also give them these practical tools and strategies they can do on a daily basis to help them and to help the child. Yeah. And maybe even to recognize the signs that he's becoming dysregulated so it doesn't escalate to the point where you have to pick him up from school, which is probably incredibly embarrassing for him and makes things worse. Yeah, absolutely. And he's not going, you know, two hours of school a day. He's not going to be getting ahead in terms of education. He would just be falling further and further behind his peers. years. So the more we can work in a systematic way with carers and schools. And, you know,

I think that's the beauty of social work in a lot of ways is that we work across systems and help them all to do that. So yeah, that's that's kind of what I'm trying to get into doing more of a challenging space to start. For sure. And you bring up a really important point for me, at least, never working specifically with kids. This hasn't been something I've conceptualized. much, but one of my favorite subjects in psychology, in addition to social psychology, was developmental. And so what you're describing is various developmental stages, whether those are considered normal for someone's age or whether it's normal. I'm using inverted commas here in terms of what the person's experience has been traumatic or otherwise. But the need to then,

as a professional identify points for shifting that person's plan or that person's supports in line with their own development and what's going to be realistic for them because you can't expect a 10-year-old to have the same capacity for reasoning as a 14-year-old, for instance. So I think that's something that at least I do, but maybe other people do working in this space, you kind of put everyone in the same bucket and you think, okay, everyone should respond the same where everyone should have the same supports, when really you've got to look at age norms and then developmental norms based on the person's experience. Yeah. And like I've often had a caregiver say to me, they're acting like a four-year-old. I was like, yeah, that's where they're

functioning at. They're 10, but they're acting like, you know, that's where we are. And you don't want to, that young person and a child still has feelings, emotions. They still have complex critical reasoning to a certain extent. So you don't want to treat them like a four-year-old, but you want to treat them like a four-year-old using the strategies that a parent would use to help a four-year-old to regulate their emotions. So it may not look exactly the same, but you're using the same principles and making them seem like they're fun for a 10-year-old, if it makes sense. So age-appropriate and really it has to be culturally respectful as well. I think that, you know, the child protection system has caused incredible disconnection from culture.

that impacts of colonisation as well. And that's ongoing in many ways. Like I don't think that colonisation has stopped. I think colonisation is still an ongoing harm. So for me, coming from New Zealand, talk a lot about Māori and how they, what things they do naturally within their culture that align with these approaches

that you can build into the child's week. So for example, you would have seen the haka in the all black of the haka, right? So learning haka is a lot of the culture, right? Hucka is it's a pattern repetitive movement, it involves breath work, it involves control, it's being part of a team, it's being part of something bigger. So that can be a really powerful intervention that, number one, helps a child regulate their emotions. Number two, it's done in a safe relational environment. And number three, and probably most importantly,

helps to connect them back to their culture and helps them understand their culture. So for me, those are the three core components of intervention that I'm looking at. And you can take that cultural component, it doesn't have to be indigenous. It can be any culture. And what are those core components that you can do that can be regulating and can help them in that way, can be done in the context of a safe relationship. And we talk about parallel relationship often. And then, yeah, that cultural connection.

I think that trifecta is the real power and where we can help children and families to heal and overcome these. experiences. I want to know about your PhD. What was your topic, your question? What did you find? So I did my research in New Zealand. So my title was understanding and addressing childhood adversity using a neurodevelopmental lens in child protection social work. Basically what that means is it's kind of what we've just been talking about before. It's based on the work of Dr. Bruce Perry, who's a psychiatrist that's worked in child trauma in the US. And he developed a model called the neuroscriptural model,

which is individualistic, but he recognises the importance of relational components and is probably more medical model than what a social work model was. So really the motivation for starting my doctor was all of these kids that I worked with that I just felt inept to actually be able to support them to heal and to overcome and sure I did some great things, it did some great work with them, but actually that intentional understanding

of what to do and how to do it, and the approach wasn't there for me. And when I looked at social work literature generally, that also was probably a huge gap for me. So that's why I went into it, and in the end I spoke to social workers who had a familiarity with neurodevelopmental principles, neurodevelopment, meaning principles of brain, really, brain development.

And I wanted to understand how they conceptualized and theorized that for themselves within the context of social work, because I think as social workers, we could take on another disciplines knowledge, and I think we tour on other disciplines all the time. But how do we then locate that within a social work understanding of structures and society as well? So I applied an ecological transactional framework. within my research to that question really to look at how do we think about the structures of adversity that impact on children and families and how do we actually help children and families to overcome those structural things because structures as we know are incredibly difficult to change

in a lot of ways it's addressing the impacts of the structures and obviously continuously advocating for those changes yeah so that's what i did and so really my research it found just about what I was talking about before, about we start at the bottom of the brain of safety, we work up and we look at when we're assessing a child in terms of that space. We're really looking at, okay, how safe do they feel? How's their self-regulation going? How is their relationships? What are the impacts of adversity and trauma and relationships? Because almost all forms of trauma and adversity end up being experienced relationally. There's always that sort of relational component to that. And then the last one being that reasoning and that understanding of what's

happened to them, that's a really important component as well. But developmentally, that in my view, happens much later on than probably when we sequence that. So the whole approach was about how do we select interventions based on that sort of framework and different interventions and different approaches can target different things. But then how do we also build those, looking at it from an ecological perspective, how do we build in that relational and cultural stuff? And for me, it's not just about the terms I used in my thesis around this was around connection and belonging, relationally and culturally, because it's not just about having those relationships, it's about having a true place where you feel like you belong.

And I think that's where certainly children I've worked with in foster care. They lack that, and that impacts on their sense of identity. It impacts on their cultural connections. So we've got to be really intentional within the work that we do to have really helped children across that in a lot of ways. And have you been able to publish from that, whether it's, you know, high-level academic or things that people hopefully will read and incorporate in their own practice? I'm working on that at the moment. Don't talk to my supervisors about that, please. No, I only got my doctor approved in November last year.

So it's only been a little while. So I'm certainly working on the publications at the moment. Yeah. Trying to get the journal articles done. It's funny, isn't it? Because there's such a relief when you finish this huge piece of work and you're just so done with it and you get the confirmation and you go, okay, cool, I can chill.

But no, it's not over. You've got more. And that's for why you set out to do it in the first place, right? it wasn't to have this thing that sits on a shelf and to have the title, it's to have the piece of work that hopefully will then be translated into practice. Yeah, and I'm really excited because in May, I'm co-presenting with Auntie Tammy Solomon, who runs Malamara together and works for Social Care Solutions as a cultural consultant.

And we're co-presenting a workshop at the Queensland, fostering and kinship care conference in the Sunshine Coast on regulation and culture and how do we bring those regulation and cultures together from an indigenous perspective so i'm using my doctorate in terms of that knowledge and being able to disseminate that out to foster and kinship carers or those working with them which is really exciting and am also presenting at the child trauma conference of host a presentation as well around my doctorate so i've got some opportunities to disseminate knowledge for me, I just, yeah, I need to do the academic pathway because that's important in terms of publishing. But for me, it's actually about supporting people and practitioners.

So I'm in the process of developing a workshop around training around how do we work from this sort of approach and disseminating my knowledge in that way. Because that to me is more powerful and impactful in a lot of ways than just an article because general articles can be dry sometimes. I think there's so much passion and understanding that comes through the training environment. So that's where I'm trying to focus as well. Yeah, of course. And in a training environment, people can ask questions. It's more interactive rather than someone sitting down reading a thing. Sure, they can contact you, but how often does that happen, right?

Yeah, exactly. And, you know, when I train almost all of the time, no matter what I'm training on, I go to Sakemart, I get a whole bunch of Sintrere integration toys for it's been as Play-Doh, kinetic sand, bubbles, squish balls, and I put them on the tables, and I don't say anything about them. And it just fascinates me. Yeah, just people watching. Yeah, exactly. And people's faces light up when they come in the room, and every single person without fail will pick up and we'll play with that sensory stuff. And I think it just makes, It helps people's focus because it takes their mind away from often really challenging topics that we're talking about.

We all dissociate. We all go through moments of zoning out and not doing out to do that. That's a normal coping strategy. And this actually helps people's focus and engagement. And I, when I was working in Top Section and was supervising, I grabbed my box of stuff and I started bringing it into supervision. And my staff, the first time I brought it in, they kind of just looked at me really weird. And I was like, just play with it. It's there.

It's all good. And do you know what? The depth of supervision and the depth of reflection that happened when they started using that stuff was just phenomenal. It was like it was really tangible because I think what it did was it actually helped them to regulate their emotions in a lot of ways, which then enables them to unlock the cortex and the high level functioning to do that critical reflection, which is actually. you know, if you're stressed, you're not able to do that critical reflection and thinking. So I, they loved kinetic sand. I'm the biggest fan of kinetic sand. So I almost always have some at home or in different places around that.

And, yeah, encourage people, you know, it doesn't have to be my doctoral stuff and the knowledge within that. It doesn't just apply to children and families. It can apply to anyone. It can apply to our own self-care. It can apply to working with adults. It can apply to working with adults in a hospital. setting or a mental health setting, you can take some of these principles really of engagement of actually if you're working with someone in a hospital setting as a social worker,

we know those settings are incredibly stressful. How do we actually start, first of all, by creating a place of safety for those clients? How do we make sure that no one else can hear what's being talked about? Are we actually in a private space in the hospital? Because they're often not. Then we can go to a place of regulation. Like actually, how do we help them to regulate? we help them to feel a little bit calmer in that moment, then doing the relational work with them,

and then we can actually go on and do the reasoning or the work that we're there to do. I think it's a really important sequence of engagement for everyone that we need to do. And so these concepts don't just apply in the space I work in. They apply to anyone that does that sort of thing. Yeah, and it's a great concept to apply to supervision as well, because I know of so many people who they'll provide supervision driving somewhere or walking by the beach or whatever it might be because being out and doing something sometimes helps with that inhibition or just the freedom to talk without staring at someone or feeling like they're staring

at you or judging you in some way. So yeah, that helps in terms of so many people that I've spoken with for the podcast will have models of supervision that include get out and about, just go for a walk, go for a drive. How do we relate to each other, not sitting in front of each other in a very clinical setting. Yeah, definitely. I saw that you're also doing, you know, in your free time, some tutoring at the University of Melbourne. Don't know how you fit all this in, but that's okay. How have you found that? And do you get to see sort of the impacts of new versus old academia? I'm wondering how bringing some sort of fresh blood into this space is helpful as well. Yeah, I need to teach on one paper at the uni and it just brings me so much joy. I love developing

people. I love seeing people's growth. I love that. It's one of those things that gives me a lot of joy in. That's the beauty of being able to support new social workers into the field. And I'm really lucky. I've got an incredible course coordinator I work with Dr. Lauren Costa. And she, yeah, it's just phenomenal. And I think it's an amazing opportunity for me in terms of my development, but also to give back into the profession in a lot of ways and to invest in those new social workers and I'll often draw on my own stories of practice and things because I think that sometimes some academics have been in academia for so long and I've got some brilliant knowledge and some great theoretical knowledge and have done some incredible research but some of our concepts

in social work and training are theoretical concepts and so then it's how do you actually apply this in practice what does this look like in practice and you've got to have some recency I think to be able to do that. I never say never, but I don't want to become an academic. I could, but for me, I love practice. I love working with people. I love research. I'm doing some really cool research at the moment, but I don't want to get stuck into a box like that. I want to be able to do what I want to do and work how I want to work and always have that connection to people because it makes me a better practitioner and a better teacher and a better supervisor, a better all-round person by actually having that connection to practice. Yeah. Is there anything else? I'm just mindful of time,

but is there anything that you feel like we haven't really explored, anything we haven't discussed about your experience or what's kept you doing social work or advice to people who are interested in getting into the field? Just do it. No. No, my advice. Not sponsored by Nike. No. Look, I think social work is a calling and you've got to have a really strong why and you've got to have a really strong understanding of who you are as a person in order to be effective in the field. I don't think social work for everyone. In fact, actually, I know it's not for everyone and be willing to constantly challenge yourself and grow throughout it. That's the most important thing because it's not social work isn't just a job. I think it's

actually much broader than that and it's got to align with your personal values and who you are. Otherwise, I don't think you'll sustain in the field for a long time. But when you've got that alignment, I can work like the way I am and could work in social work for the rest of my life, I think. I think there's that connection to who I am and why I think I exist on the world in a lot of ways. So do that work before you start a social work program and hold on to that why when you're in social work

because that's a component that will continue to drive you and it will continue to support you through in the long haul. And it seems like you've really continued to bounce from thing to thing, not in search of that why, but in search of clarifying for yourself, why. And saying, I understand that this is a gap. I understand that there are things that could be done better. Even from, you know, a leadership perspective, you've focused on people's strengths and looked at their goals,

not just for the people, the clients, but for the colleagues that you're working with. And you're trying to prevent that conveyor belt from continuing that potential failure of the profession and looking at the systems and supports that you're working within. So I think that's what gives you the longevity in the practice, in the field, is that you've had the opportunity to look at things from all stages of practice and from all levels of theory to practice as well,

which is given you a really well-rounded understanding of where we can continue to make a difference. Yeah, absolutely. And I think for me, the reason I change roles is about growth. I'm not someone that can stay in something for 10 years. For me, I have to constantly be learning and growing because there's so much better I can do. You know, I can be a better practitioner.

And I will be a better practitioner in two years' time because of the opportunities and the situations I put myself in intentionally to grow myself. And I think that's, I suffice and talk to people that have been in the same organizational, same role for 10 years. And I'm like, how are you growing? How are you growing as a practitioner? How are you pushing yourself? Because you can do that within the work that you do, but you've got to have that growth

mindset. And I think that's so important, right? Yeah. Yeah, it can be very easy to get stuck in the same. I know how to do this and I'm good at it. How good will you be in another 10 years time if everything has continued to grow around you and you're still stagnating? Exactly.

Yeah. Are there any resources that you'd like me to pop in the show notes? You've mentioned Bruce Perry's work, even the Science and Safety approach or any of the publications and collaborations that you've worked on. What would you like to highlight? Tell you what, I will get you on my website an overview of my research by the time it goes live. Deal. There you go. You've given yourself a deadline. I have been meaning to do it for the last four months because I need to send it to my participants and I haven't done it. Yeah. Yep. Okay, I go to do that. Braden, I'm so appreciative of your time. I've loved that you've been able to share your experience

and the work that you're doing and continuing to do in terms of exploring culturally and developmentally appropriate practice and really interrogating social works responsibility as a profession in this area. And yeah, thank you again for coming onto the podcast and chatting with me today. My pleasure. Thanks for having me. Thanks for joining me this week. If you would like to continue this discussion or ask anything of either myself or Braden, please visit my anchor page at anchor.fm slash social work spotlight.

You can find me on Facebook, Instagram and Blue Sky, or you can email SW Spotlight Podcast at gmail.com. I'd love to hear from you. Please also let me know if there is a particular topic you'd like discussed, or if you or another person you know would like to be featured on the show. Next episode's guest is Ishwaria, a passionate social work graduate from India. currently pursuing her Masters of Social Work at RMIT University in Melbourne. With hands-on experience across diverse sectors, including community development, youth education,

aged care and mental health services, Ashwaria brings both compassion and insight to her work. Deeply committed to advancing mental health and hospital social work, she's driven by a desire to make meaningful systemic change. I release a new episode every two weeks. Please subscribe to my podcast so you'll know. notified when this next episode is available. See you next time.