Social Work Spotlight - Episode 25: Belinda & Robina

Episode Date: March 5, 2021

In this episode I have two guests joining me for the first time. I speak with Robina and Belinda about their work in the Disability and Sexual Violence Team at the NSW Health Education Centre Against Violence. This portfolio funding has come out of the Royal Commission into responses to abuse in institutionalised settings to improve responses to people with disability who have experienced sexual violence, as well as for children and young people who are using problematic and harmful sexualised behaviours. They have both had incredible careers demonstrating an ongoing commitment to furthering an intersectional understanding of structural and interpersonal forms of violence and inequalities while trying to cultivate reflective, trauma-informed and socially just responses in direct practice and advocacy.  They believe providing education and training is a crucial part of social work practice, as well as social work clinicians being involved in lobbying for structural change.Links to resources mentioned in this week’s episode:AASW Social Workers in Disability Practice Group - https://www.aasw.asn.au/new-south-wales/groups/swidCouncil for Intellectual Disability - https://cid.org.au/New Street services - https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/parvan/hsb/Pages/new-street-services.aspxNSW Health Education Centre Against Violence (ECAV) - http://www.ecav.health.nsw.gov.au/NSW Service for Treatment and Rehabilitation of Torture and Trauma Survivors - https://www.startts.org.au/People with Disability Australia - https://pwd.org.au/Royal Commission final report, understanding child sexual abuse in institutional contexts - https://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/final-reportRoyal Commission into Violence, Abuse, Neglect and Exploitation of People with Disability - https://disability.royalcommission.gov.au/United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities - https://www.un.org/development/desa/disabilities/convention-on-the-rights-of-persons-with-disabilities.htmlThis episode's transcript can be viewed here:https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jhWFyMVZH1BucGSzyXpq-9zpqrjoZXaNSLw_FiT_x9c/edit?usp=sharingThanks to Kevin Macleod of incompetech.com for our theme music.

Hi and welcome to Social Work Spotlight, where I showcase different areas of the profession each episode. I'm your host, Yasmeen McKee Wright, and today's guests are Rabina Jones and Belinda Green. Yes, I'm doing something slightly different in this episode, having the opportunity to speak with two incredible social workers about a project they're working on together, because two social workers are better than one. Rabina and Belinda work at the New South Wales Health Education Centre Against Violence, better known as ECHAV. ECHAV is a statewide service in New South Wales Health, delivering professional development training to government and non-government workers on prevention and responses to violence, abuse and neglect. ECHAV's trainings centre on research from a lived perspective with a socio-political lens examining and addressing forms of interpersonal violence. ECAV has the following portfolio areas.

Aboriginal programs, integrated violence, abuse and neglect around sexual assault and child protection, domestic violence, cultural equity, male domestic and family violence interventions, medical forensic and their latest portfolio in disability and sexual violence was established in 2020. Rabina and Belinda are both senior statewide health educators within this new portfolio. Rabina has worked as a social worker for the past 20 years within acute, sub-acute and community health settings. She has worked with a range of client groups including aged care at both Calvary Healthcare and St George Hospital, then joining Liverpool Brain Injury Rehabilitation Unit's Community Team in 2012, providing intervention for people with acquired brain injuries and their

families. Rabina believes providing education and training is a crucial part of social work practice, as well as social work clinicians being involved in lobbying for structural change. Her commitment to this has included supervising multiple students and staff, teaching a social work and law subject at ACU, developing and providing training on a range of topics, both internal and external to health, and representing the brain injury sector at a National Disability Insurance Agency community of practice from 2017 to 2019. One of the areas Rabina has always been passionate about is responses to domestic and family violence, both within the aged care and brain injury sectors.

Her increasing awareness of the intersection between acquired brain injury and domestic and family violence has led to her taking on this new role at the Education Centre Against Violence, as it is a culmination of her clinical experience and ongoing passion for social justice. Belinda is an anthropologist and critical social worker, with experience in training, research and counselling. Belinda has undertaken work in the former areas for a number of statewide health-related services, including the Drug and Alcohol Multicultural Education Centre and the New South Wales Service for the treatment and rehabilitation of torture and trauma survivors. Belinda has also taught and conducted research at a range of leading universities

in Australia and Ethiopia. Throughout her career, she has demonstrated an ongoing commitment to furthering an intersectional understanding of structural and interpersonal forms of violence and inequities while trying to cultivate reflective, trauma-informed and socially just responses in her direct practice and advocacy. Belinda has also published a variety of articles, book chapters and training materials. She has a PhD in anthropology, a Master of Social Work qualifying, a Bachelor of Arts, graduating with honours, and a Bachelor of Media and Communication. Thank you so much, Rabina and Belinda, for coming on to the podcast. It's wonderful having you both. And it's the first time that we have a pair of social workers. I don't know what we should call ourselves.

Maybe a gaggle or is there a collective noun for social workers? Butchers paper of social workers. Oh, I love it. Okay, that's what we are now. So I know that you're working very closely together at the moment. Can you tell me about what your current role is and how that's come about and also on a day-to-day basis what it might look like? So the Education Centre Against Violence is a New South Wales Health Service that's been around for 1990.

Yeah, since 1985. So within that service, there are various portfolios that have been set up looking at. Essentially, it was focusing, I think, initially around training and development of resources for the violence abuse and neglect sector. but then I think over time it's expanded. But essentially there are several different portfolios at ECHAV and following the Royal Commission into institutionalised responses to abuse in institutionalised settings,

there was an acknowledgement that a lot of the submissions to the Royal Commission were from people who hadn't accessed sexual assault or specialised services around the abuse and violence that they'd experienced and neglect and exploitation as well, and that New South Wales Health, when people were presenting, weren't necessarily providing an appropriate response in terms of access and accessibility for physical access,

but also in regards to resources and responses and the skill set of staff, you know, understanding different communication needs, all of those sorts of things. So we essentially have funded coming out of the Royal Commission to improve the responses, from New South Wales Health to people with disability who've experienced sexual violence, but also for children and young people who are using problematic and harmful sexualised behaviours.

So there is a specialised service called New Street that works with those children, young people and their families. And again, it's also to work with that service around their responses to children and young people who present who have a disability also. The new portfolio was established in, you know, this year 2020 and as you can imagine, I imagine many of your listeners are aware that there's also a current ongoing Royal Commission into Violence, Abuse, Neglect and exploitation of people with Disability. So it's a very exciting moment in terms of the recognition of the scale of that for people with disability. So we're sort of in the process of continuing to watch and analyze.

the findings that are coming from that. We are a team of three that are sort of dedicated to this portfolio and our brief is really to try to address those barriers for those services, you know, to enhance their capacity to engage and, you know, with people with disability and for those services to be more accessible. We have a long way to go in this respect. We're funded for the next three years, but I could see us being here for quite some time in terms of the need and, you know, the sort of level of response or lack thereof. And, you know, the public hearings this year before COVID during the Royal Commission around the healthcare system, public health care, and the challenges for people with disability was quite stark and disturbing. So, you know, it's something that

it's happening for us within our team around trying to build the capacity of those services across New South Wales, but we foresee that there is much greater work to be done across the public health system in this area. And it's very exciting without sounding too macabre about, you know, the level of need and the urgency in terms of this issue in Australia, in terms of an improved response. In terms of what you're passionate about and what's led you to this point, maybe you can take turns in letting me know when you started as social workers and why you chose this profession. I'm relatively new to social work, but I think that I've been a social worker for a long time without knowing it. So I did my master's in social work a few years ago after having worked in

sort of academia and principally in anthropology for nearly 20 years. And I decided to do the social work in terms of realizing that age is not a liability with social work. In fact, it's potentially an asset based on, you know, lived experience and the benefits of that in working with people. So, yeah, I decided as a means of diversification, but also enhancing the things that I'd already learnt, that social work would be the right trajectory for me.

So I think in my year 12 yearbook, it said that my life career was going to be psychology or something like that. So I probably have always had an interest in other people and talking to people, but I vividly remember going to, I think it was Westmead Hospital, did like a career's day and it was social workers that spoke. and I kind of was like, oh, no, that's actually what I want to do.

And I come from a family of essentially public health servants, either in teaching or in social works. There's a few social workers in my aunts and uncles, nursing and police. So I had always been surrounded by, I guess, what you call the helping professions, fairly cool family in terms of lots of discussion around social justice issues growing up or four of my grandparents were very strong. I guess in their politics, but in different ways. So I remember going to rallies and things like that as a kid,

but also, I suppose, having a model of understanding the differences in the world and how important it was, I guess, to acknowledge the privilege that I had, you know, growing up and what people in the world didn't have the same privileges. And I guess that's kind of what led me to realizing that social work was kind of a combination on all of that together. Yeah, so that's how I ended up in social work. Did you have much of an opportunity then as a child to have some really interesting conversations around the dinner table with family about what they did and how that might have sparked your

interest? Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think at various points, my parents or high school teachers had worked in schools where there's probably a lot of kids that came from families where there was a lot of poverty and a lot of discrimination that was happening. So I guess some reflection on that, although I guess it's probably only as I've gotten older and come into roles like this that I've probably realized the amount of privilege that I actually grew up in and maybe I didn't necessarily have a true sense of that growing up. Yeah, but I think, I guess, things like, you know, going on protest rallies and stuff like that as a kid, you know, with something that was part of and, you know, things like unionism and having an awareness of workers' rights

that sort of, those sort of politics was, yeah, pretty much inbred in my family. So, yeah, I think that was sort of the experiences that I had. Okay. And I guess, Belinda, there's so much politics in anthropology. I guess that would have set you up well for trying to figure out how that works within social work and a human rights framework and how you might want to then go about doing your work. Yeah, I think most of my work previously has been looking at more minority

and marginalized populations. and also with that very strong structural lens to understanding and people's experience and realizing sort of the nature, you know, focusing on the nature of inequality and trying to do something about that in my work, in my writings. So, yeah, that seems, as I said, I feel really grateful for all of those years in anthropology because I think they've set me up for a very strong sort of understanding of social work and that ecological sort of framework and reference point that we aspire to on most days and actually realise on some really good days as well.

What would you say has led you both to this point in your career? What sort of other experience have you had in social work prior to this? So I've worked in health for 20 years. I started out in aged care, in age care assessment teams, so community-based role. And just, I suppose, I've always, yeah, I have very strong relationships with my grandparents. So I felt, I guess, very passionate about age care issues.

And then worked in acute hospital across a range of settings, but often, you know, working with aged care kind of populations. And then from there, yeah, actually was sort of just looking for something a bit different, I guess, and at the same time as applying to my master's at advanced practice, I had an ex-student of mine actually sent me the job ad for a job at brain injury and the community team at Liverpool Hospital and didn't have much knowledge around brain injury and sort of thought it was time to sort of do a bit of a change. So went across to there eight years ago and yeah, still to this day, I think I learned

something new every day in that role. So I guess that meant a greater awareness of of the issues for people with quiet brain injury and their families and dealing with not just then the age care system and in terms of access to services and supports, but then the disability sector as well. And throughout that sort of 20 years, I've always, within the social work department, you're often in whatever kind of hospital or community health setting that you work involved in doing kind of the manager training around child protection and domestic and family violence. So I had always been involved in running, you know, the managerial. training for the year for the staff at the hospital or the team that I worked in.

And so I guess I've had that lens with both populations in terms of working, you know, with older women who lived with, you know, 60 years of violence and abuse and the challenges for them in terms of that particular part of your life and what that would mean. And then into the disability kind of realm with brain injury around people that had acquired their brain injuries through domestic and family violence, but also clients that that I was working with who had brain injuries that were also using violence against their partners and family. And probably a few years ago became aware

from some research that was done by brain injury Australia down in Victoria of there was, I guess, a gap with particularly women and children that were sustaining acquired brain injuries through either multiple blows to the head or suffocation. So hypoxic brain injury that weren't accessing brain injury rehab services for a range of reasons,

some of which is just that the severity might not be severe enough to kind of meet the brain injury rehab requirements, but also because often they weren't actually reporting or being asked about experiences within their, you know, being physically choked to the point of suffocation or blacking out and no one picking out that they had brain injuries. So that was, yeah, a few years ago became aware that research had happened and so did a little bit of work with e-cab with a client from the brain injury service at forums around domestic and family violence. So I guess then sort of started to see that this was something that certainly the violence abuse and neglect sector were very much on board with trying to improve their response.

And so wanted to kind of, I guess, be involved in that on a bigger scale. And as much as I loved working with clients, I guess I'd also got to a point where I probably needed a bit of a break from direct clinical work as well. So it sort of all sort of fell into place, I guess, that this position was a culmination of all of the different experiences I had and interests and passions that I had at the same time. Nice. Myself, well, after, as I mentioned, you know, after 10 years of working as an exploited, contracted labour at universities across the Union elsewhere, I realised that I didn't feel I was going to make a contribution to humanity in the way that I was. like. So I made a decision. Also, I feel really strongly that education and knowledge should be applied and used, you know, responsibly and ethically for the benefit of society. So I made a

decision to walk away from academia and join the service for treatment and rehabilitation of torture and trauma survivors, which is often referred to as starts. And I took up a position around running their outreach health education program. And over that time, you know, obviously was very engaged in learning about trauma and also learning about the various contexts and experiences from, you know, people from refugee backgrounds had come from and their experiences in Australia. And so that sort of was part of the motivation to take up social work in terms of wanting to do more face-to-face front-line work.

And so during that time it starts, I had the privilege of undertaking counselling in that space with people. And then I decided, you know, in terms of my politics around doing applied research and education, I stepped away from that position and went into another service looking more at drug and alcohol from a multicultural lens and doing research. And then I realized that, again, just that principle of like applied knowledge and working with adult learners and drawing on sort of those skills that I have is really much needed in this space.

And so I came to join the Education Centre Against Violence, to join a new team around disability and sexual violence. And also, most of my work, you know, has been really focused around structural and interpersonal forms of violence. So the other opportunity about this role is that it's a very new and important frontier in terms of further work needing to happen around realising people with disabilities rights and access to sexual assault services and quality healthcare. And so there's a real opportunity here in terms of being creative and working within a team and generating something from the ground up alongside people with lived experience, which for me really sort of speaks to, I guess, what gets the juices flowing and really exciting and what I feel really strongly about in my ethics and politics around practice. Brilliant.

I think this ties in really well to an episode I recorded a little while ago, so this is two episodes ago now, with someone who's providing counseling to people who are identified or identify themselves as victims of violence, neglect, and abuse. So it's kind of an offshoot, I guess, of the type of support that you're working with every day, but it's very different in terms of it's clinical rather than doing research.

It makes so much sense that such a program exists and such important work as being funded, but it's so rare for something to be funded for such a long time, and I guess that ties into government priorities, and they just try to keep everything short and sharp and small bits of funding that can't have as much of an impact over time. What's been the main drive or the main catalyst, or why now and why hasn't this come about before, do you think?

What's the priority at the moment that's different, that's kind of shot this into the public eye? And why is it going to stay? How do we make sure that continues? I guess we need to think about contextually, you know, that the United Nations Convention on the Rights of People with Disability was established in 2006. Australia ratified that in 2008.

That's not a long time ago. And I also know that, you know, in terms of our work and reflections, that particularly over the last sort of six years that this issue has sort of been given more of attention and national significance by some fairly disturbing testimony within those respective inquiries and commissions, but also in certain events that are going on. And I think, you know, we have disability advocates and disability people's organisations to thank around their work and lobbying and mobilisation of this issue. So, you know, if we think about that,

it's a relatively short period of time where the importance of the realisation of people's rights, as well as the overarching phenomenon of ableism in our society and discrimination, that's been around for a long time. And it's a relatively new phenomenon, sadly, to be, you know, recognizing the centrality of people's rights to determine and live with safety, you know, dignity and respect. So that's my contribution in terms of an explanation where we're still in the stone ages.

And, you know, that mobilisation of those issues and things is really, as I said, it's a significant moment in Australia's history. Now, now is the time. So with the testimonies from the Royal Commission into institutionalised abuse, there was, I think, from what we've looked at close to 300 people who acknowledged that they had a disability at the time of being abused within those settings. So I guess the funding and the acknowledgement from New South Wales Health was that from those admissions and from those experiences also acknowledging that there was a need to improve

the sexual assault services. So that's, I guess, initially why the funding came about, but then with the current Royal Commission as well, and we know that it's not just obviously limited to sexual abuse and sexual assault, that they're, you know, a high prevalence rates for people with disability much higher than the general community with all forms of violence, abuse, neglect and exploitation. And in fact, often a culmination of multiple experiences of that throughout the lifetime. So I guess, yeah, that there's just, you know, just been an acknowledgement of those voices actually starting to be heard finally. And I agree. I think it's, you know, the disability advocates and the disabled people's organisations that have

fought really hard to get this on agendas within other systems like health for there to be a response. And ultimately, underpinning the strategy and the project and strategy that we're working with is that it's also not about kind of tokenistically coming in and saying, okay, we're going to teach our services how to respond, but actually going to work with disabled people's organisations and people with disability from the beginning to talk to them about what is it that needs to be done, what do you need, what could the services do better? So that I guess is also a fairly new in terms of co-design work being done is sort of also fairly new within health and other sectors. And that's, yeah, I think really important and different to maybe what's

been done before. Can you tell me about how that collaborative design plays out, what that inclusive approach looks like? I imagine you're taking on board a lot of group work principles, but what does it look like when you're there collating information, asking people about their experiences and then formulating that into ideas for change? Well, more recently, you know, we've been partnering with disability people's organisations and running a series of conference. consultations with peer advocates and asking them directly about what, you know, we've kind of realized the importance that we need to develop a space for people with disability to be able to lead and have their voices heard in a respectful, accessible way.

So we sort of started the ball rolling with consultation with these disability, people's organisations around ideas from the peer advocates about their previous experiences of being engaged in co-design processes or co-production processes. What does that mean? And what are the priorities for them? What does it look like? What are some of the considerations that we need to make in terms of people's, as I said, access and accessibility, people's safety in those spaces, given that we are going to be, you

talking about violence and reflecting on what's going to be beneficial for people in such services. So really asking them, you know, what is it that you think we should do? What is it that you would need to be safe and feel that you are respected in that space? and really combining those consultations and ideas, presenting them back to people involved in those consultations, and then setting about, you know, that what came out of that is sort of establishing, you know, an advisory committee that's solely and exclusively people with disability. That's not, you know, too big so that people can have their voices heard so that it is, you know, people are able to have the right supports if needed in that space,

to have, you know, counselling support for them, even when there is any distress that arises from, you know, those consultations or conversations that are had. And really, you know, then setting about going to people, you know, disability people's organisations, visiting these organisations that we've done, consultation with building relationships, And then relying on those organisations to disseminate perhaps expressions of interest for people's

involvement in such a committee and such a project and then consequently building those relationships with that committee and allowing them to oversee the actual strategy and, you know, development of this process or project and being at the forefront of that, both in co-delivery, co-production, you know, the evaluation of it and their feedback on those processes. So really learning and letting, you know, allowing them to lead us in this process. And then in addition to that, so they're sort of doing an overarching, I guess, advisory on the strategy. So, you know, what do we prioritize?

Where do we go first? What are the big issues that we need to kind of address? but then given that the role of e-cab is to provide training and resources, then the next step would be looking at. So what training do we need to develop? And the idea is to have a co-design panel of experts that we would then get the committee to help choose who are the most suitable people from that, hopefully quite a large panel of people

to help with each particular either training that's being, developed or it might be a resource that's being developed so that we're getting again a kind of wide representation and different people with different expertise and when we say different expertise we're talking about both lived experience in terms of people with disability themselves. It may be carers or someone with family members it may be you know people who work with within the disability sector or within the sexual assault and new street sector so that there's sort of a combination I guess of the different people that these resources and training will impact on. So it's sort of an ongoing process of continually co-designing and co-production of everything that we do.

And I know with research a lot of the time when you're designing a research project or trying to get information out of a cohort, you have a fairly good idea of what you're thinking you'll get out of this in terms of the information and your design based on that. But is there anything particularly surprising that's come out for you so far? It might be a really positive thing or a positive story about something that's working really well, but what would you say has been most surprising for you that you didn't expect so far? For me, it's been about just my own learning curve around access and accessibility and actually what that means.

I guess I had I'd hoped some awareness in terms of working with people with, you know, cognitive disability in regards to how you provide information to them, how you might support them to make decisions within their life around healthcare decisions or whether it be services or accommodation. And I think because I suppose it was a particular group of people I was working with sort of coming into this role and having a sort of much greater awareness, it's almost kind of, yeah, it becomes sort of a lens for me in the world that I now actually see everywhere how ableist, I guess, our society is in so many different ways. So I think for me, yeah, I guess

it's been an awareness of the reality of what it's actually like. And that's probably maybe not surprised me, but it's, yeah, it's been a big change to sort of, yeah, be sort of looking at the world that way and thinking about what that's actually meant for people with disability. Yeah, I think the most surprising thing is the levels of violence and abuse and neglect of people with disability in Australia. And I mentioned, I feel, we're in the Stone Ages in terms of just the scale of it, the multiple realities and instances of people's experience of that over the life course, and just the, as Rabina said, you know, that the sort of allowance of ableism and the extent of structural and interpersonal violence for people.

So that's been upsetting, you know, even just to read about it in terms of some of the Royal Commission and some of the information that we are, you know, consuming at the moment and hearing about, you know, know, people, you know, like for instance, when we were having those consultations and having discussions, you know, many people, it was a kind of fairly normal in inverted commerce reality that many of those people we consulted with had experienced violence, abuse and neglect as part of their everyday reality and experience. And so it's just shocking and disturbing. Yeah. Given that you are dealing with on a daily basis people who are encouraged to share their stories

or it might be providers who are telling people things on behalf of other people, it's really difficult obviously. How do you look after yourself and kind of hold that? What does self-care look like for you? Personally, and I think Rabina said people often talk about feeling very lucky in Australia. personally, I feel too many years of study about inequality that, you know, I cannot reconcile my privilege as an Australian here and my own sort of positionality. I can't reconcile that without trying to make a contribution to humanity.

And that is a very big driver for me, not in the sense of being a crusader per se, but I feel that that's my, you know, that's how I sort of, get up in the morning that we need to make a contribution to humanity. Isn't that what we're here for in terms of, yeah, existentially? So that's my sort of ethos, I guess, of philosophy. And I think it's, yeah, you know, I have really great colleagues. There's lots of opportunity for critical reflection and, you know, collegiality and having a good team. It's a privilege. It's quite easy to take care, you know, in terms of the sense of purpose and meaning that comes from doing this work. Yeah, I guess I'm probably not great, to be honest, at self-care in terms of my work-life balance

and my, I guess, I do become quite consumed probably by my work, often maybe to, or definitely, to the detriment of my mental physical health and probably, you know, certainly to the detriment of my family as well in terms of it being such a big part of who I am and finding it difficult sometimes to let that go. You know, I'm a big preacher of saying how important clinical supervision is, but admittedly it's not something that I have accessed myself sufficiently for a large part of my career for a, you know, range of reasons. And a lot of that is my own self not actually seeking out. And I do regret that, to be honest. Like I think I possibly may have managed better in my previous direct clinical roles

if I actually had have made the effort to seek clinical supervision more regularly and more that was what was going to meet my needs. Having supervised other staff, I was always very careful about making sure their needs were being met in that sense. But, yes, certainly neglected my own. So I think in some ways it's changed for me because I've gone, I guess, from working in direct clinical practice, which has its own difficulties with self-care. And, yeah, I mean, there's certainly many experiences I've had of probably working outside

the square because of feeling like I wanted to support the client I was working with and it may not be conventionally what was expected within my role. And so it's been different shifting into what was really kind of a desk job in a sense to start with and will be in many ways. is kind of sort of that part of that will be the case on an ongoing basis. But yeah, so coming to sort of having daily contact with clients so suddenly sitting in a room and doing things like reading the Royal Commission, submissions and kind of getting immersed in kind of, I guess,

the content of what we were going to be working on, the people that we were going to be working with. Yeah, it has been quite hard to kind of digest in a sense. I haven't ever worked directly, I guess, within the advanced abuse neglect sector, but obviously worked with lots of people who've had that experience, but I'm working with them in a different capacity, but that's been part of their lived experience. So I think I found quite harrowing initially to, I think, yeah, like Belinda said, it's, it is really kind of shocking to actually sit down and the enormity in terms of the prevalence and people's experiences

of a combination of abuse and neglect throughout their lifetime. Yeah, it's horrific to know about and I think it has been beneficial that I guess Belinda and I have similar philosophies and so we've probably supported each other a fair bit in terms of how we manage that and we've recently had the addition of a team leader which has been great as well that we've sort of now and she's gelled in really well so we've been able to kind of I guess continue to sort of share that support yeah I try not to let work bleed too much into the rest of my life but yeah it is I'm sort of part of my identity and that's something that, yeah, it will always be probably a bit of a balance for me.

Sure. And I know you work with another social worker. You've got a small team, but how do you work with other disciplines, either within your immediate setting or external in terms of pulling together the feedback and information from people from diverse professions or communities or backgrounds? So probably to date, we've mostly really worked with disability organisations. So that's being, I think, just really trying to respect their role, their stories, their voices. And yeah, I think that's the primary thing for me is really just listening to them because I'm by no means an expert in any of this and want to learn from them about what, you know, I guess within our team and within our role we might be able to do.

We haven't had to, I guess, really work with a lot with other systems in terms of within, health we're going to be doing training at some point with, you know, direct clinical workers, but also there's the intersection with the child protection services and also with, you know, domestic and family violence services with the police. So there will be probably points at which we will be doing more of that integrated kind of work with other systems and at other professions. But the majority, I guess, of the people that work at ECHAV have either social work or similar kind of type backgrounds. So within this actual setting.

What would you say you love most about the work that you're doing or about being a social worker? That sort of focus on making a contribution to humanity, as I said, is really important to me and I feel that is centred well in the practice of social work as well as the recognition of the wider variables that play out in people's lives. and experiences. I think in terms of this particular position, what's really exciting is that, as I don't know if I've said this,

but it is a significant moment in Australia and about social justice and a particular priority population, as we call, as we say, in health. And the creative element and collaborative element that comes with our role of working with people with direct lived experience and creating and designing something together that's relatively surprisingly new to our society. And that's a, that's a massive privilege to be in that position in terms of having such a creative element. and then also I think working with colleagues that privilege principles over personalities

and having the privilege of one's ethics. You know, morality is a privilege into itself and having one's ethics at the forefront of what we're trying to do in this space is also very heartening and rich for me. Yeah, I think if I go back to, you know, doing undergrad, the degree in the first place and always having had a sense of social justice, but it's a little bit theoretical, I suppose when you're doing it at uni, but I vividly recall a Centrelink social worker

coming to speak to us at uni and talking about what she would do in terms of writing submissions when there was going to be legislation and policy changes because she was able to kind of reflect on how it would directly impact on the clients that she saw within the Centrelink context. And I remember that kind of blew my mind a bit

in the sense of going like, you know, there is actually a way that we can affect change on a greater scale. And so that's always been something. And fortunately enough, I was able to do with one of my pranks with her. And she was an incredible inspiration in terms of her role in doing that. I don't think I could ever work at Centrelink, mind you. But, yeah, I think so throughout, you know, the 20 years of working in direct clinical practice,

I have always looked for ways that I could, I guess, try and enact change, not just on an individual basis through, you know, what I was advocating, or supporting clients to do with Centrelink, with housing, with all of those systems that have so many barriers to them, but also on a greater scale, what could I do to try and, yeah, change that kind of next level of, whether it be policy or how service is operated, that's always been incredibly difficult to do as a clinician

and to be able to balance your clinical load with that other kind of part of your role. and I think it's almost now a bit of a luxury, I guess, that that's what I get to do now all day, every day. So the things that I used to read or think about, you know, in my clinical life that I would sort of be like, oh, it would be really great to be able to get involved in a project like that or to be able to do some work around that and kind of get caught up in the day-to-day caseload, whereas now I actually can follow up on those things. And yeah, I think that's really exciting to be actually able to enact change on another scale, hopefully. That's the idea anyway.

Yeah, I think that's what's exciting to me. It sounds like you're able to really contribute to a sort of research legacy, which is incredibly exciting. I think I see it as being more just the portal, which maybe hopes to help people with disabilities, voices to actually be heard within an institution that's like health. Yeah, I think that's the way I kind of see it is that, you know, just being kind of the way to help that happen as opposed to doing it. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, makes total sense. And not in this discussion, but previously we've spoken about the life course approach

and how that recognises the importance of looking at a person's life in its entirety rather than a person's experiences in the context of systems or services. And sounds like you really have an opportunity to examine, some multi-layered experiences of discrimination. So as you said before, allowing those silenced voices to be heard. So it's something that in a lot of settings, on an individual level, you might have capacity to sit and listen and be with someone and help them to share their stories.

But it's harder to have that impact on a larger level. So it is really something that's powerful and probably energizing for you both. Absolutely. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think what we're really talking about here is the power of advocacy, you know, and the opportunity to do that in a very sort of direct way that we hope is going to matter on the ground on an individual level. Yes, and that's, and as well as collaborating in working alongside people directly that are affected, you know, in that process is really, as I said, a massive privilege. Yeah. Yeah.

And I think the other privilege we've had is we've done some kind of discussions with some of the front line clinical staff as well. And yeah, it's been, you know, amazing to particularly because we're a statewide service. So, you know, I've only ever worked within kind of metropolitan areas. So, you know, speaking to people in Dubbo and Orange and Marambichi around how they actually adapt their practice to be able to cover huge geographical areas. and just the amazing kind of attitude they have towards like, yeah, well, you know, we've got to just do it what to do. Like we just get on with it because that's the reality of the sitting that we work in. And yeah, that's been also amazing.

And I think we're really excited about the prospect of, you know, hopefully once COVID is like less of an issue in terms of traveling that we'll actually be able to go out to some of the regional areas in New South Wales and not just meet some of the sexual assault and New Street clinicians, but also people with disability and disability organisations in those areas. That's kind of going to be an exciting part of what we do. Like I do miss people in this role now. Or do you respect to my colleagues, I'm missing that interaction that, you know,

we kind of have in a clinical role. So, yeah, and it is. I mean, social work is about relationships, really. It's about relationships with other people. So that's kind of, I guess, part of, you know, why I do what I do because of the relationships that you get, you know, to experience with people through different parts of their life at various stages. And, yeah.

And, I mean, it's important what Rabina raised there about, you know, we can talk about this stuff systemically and structurally, but we do have to say that so far we've seen and heard some real champions within the health system out there. Yes, a lot of them are social workers and or counsellors, we have to say, not just because we are as well. But, you know, there are some people that are doing some fantastic work out there in that system, that big public health system as well. And I think for us it's about how do we take those people's work and what they're doing and the amazing innovation and things that are happening and how do we actually share that, that knowledge, that expertise as well. That's part of, I think, going to be the challenge being a statewide service that's a bit different as well because all the kind of local health districts are quite unique in how they run and operate.

So I think that's certainly something that we've realised is going to be part of the difficult part of our role as well. And why do you think these roles were prioritised as social work roles rather than other disciplines, as you said, counsellors or psychologists? just what do you think sets us apart in terms of maybe our training or our approach? I'm obviously biased and I feel as though we have a lot to contribute. Not everyone who works in ICAF has a social background. So it's not a prerequisite. They are statewide educated positions.

So in that sense, I guess it is open to any profession to apply. I guess it's by chance, really, and blessings that this room is. are social workers and we have said to the director that she did, you know, a bloody good job in recruiting without blowing our own trumpet around the eclectic skill range that the three of us bring from our respective backgrounds. Yeah, because we all have quite different skill sets. Yeah. And that's balanced really well, yeah, in terms of how we put things together and how we work together because that's really hard when you've got, yeah. I think the great thing for me you know, is the feeling of that camaraderie by having an emphasis on critical reflection around

their work, having those ethics and principles, you know, held to really high regard and also seeing things sort of from a, you know, an ecological perspective as well, which is really great to have that in a collaborative space. That is gold, really. Do you feel as though either there are in existence or there are plans to set up additional services to support those who are affected based on the work that you're doing? Well, theoretically, the idea is that sexual assault and new street services should be accessible for everybody and it's a universal approach that I would be suggesting that it's more about how do we make those services respond better in terms of sexual sexual,

assault and New Street, whether within that there is an identification there needs to be an increase within their resources. I mean, I don't know. That's probably a long way down the track. But I guess, yeah, it's more about making the services work for people with disability as opposed to providing a separate service, if that makes sense. And that's the premise, as Rabina said, of universalising the idea and practice of access and accessibility as opposed to it being something that's specialised that it should be available.

Yeah, so things, for example, for all services should have that available to in terms of their work. So for example, in regards to what written material we're sending out as a portfolio just considering we shouldn't be making a separate document, you know, for someone with a cognitive disability or someone with a visual impairment that can be read by a screen reader, but actually all our documents should be accessible full stop. And then kind of system changes that aren't going to happen overnight. But I think for us that's what's really important that, yeah, that those are universal rather than being a different service or a different, you know, support that's provided.

Well, we will need champions and we will need leadership, you know, in that space to realize that as well. And ultimately it's going to be the people with disability that we're working with that I suppose are going to tell us as well if that's, I mean, maybe I'm wrong, maybe they're going to come back and say, you know, over time, actually we do want a dedicated person, you know, like that's still to be also, I guess, discovered in terms of we don't really know, like, that's the whole point of doing co-design is that we're going to be led by people with disability themselves as to what they feel, their community. needs. And if there are champions out there listening to this, how can they get involved, how can they get in touch with you? So I guess in terms of networking, we are looking at early next year developing the panel of experts. So I guess if someone is interested in being involved in that, in terms of the committee, so we are sending out, we are working with the particular organisations around sending out some expressions of interest. for that? Contact us via the eCAP website and we will respond. That's our job. So if anyone has any

interest or wants to get in contact with us, please do. You're more than welcome and we will respond with Ernest. So we've linked in with the social workers and disability ASW group recently. So we sort of are going to stay in touch with that group. But also I guess, yeah, for us it's about the organisations themselves. So, you know, working with organisations like CID, PWDA, around what we can do with them to kind of move forward with the strategy. Where would you suggest people could go if they wanted to know more about social work in general in this field? Is there any reading or viewing or organisations they can check out other than ECAB?

Because it's kind of a unique space in that it is sort of doing training, education with a very particular group and it's yeah I mean there is no traditional social work role I know so it's not like I just think for me it's probably about you know find out about the real commission like just to incorporate you know getting people to actually increase their awareness you know people with disabilities are across our society in any role that you work in as a social worker you will be working with people with disabilities so I guess it's for me about like finding out about what's happening with the Royal Commission, keeping aware of the issues that are being discussed there,

thinking about access and accessibility and finding out, you know, what you could do to maybe improve access and accessibility to the service in which you work. You know, finding out about things like support a decision-making and what that means for someone with a disability. I think that's more important for me, I guess it's in terms of increasing people's awareness. Yeah, it sounds like there's a role even for other health disciplines.

I'm thinking of the example you gave earlier where there were women who had suffered domestic violence, family violence, and in that process had sustained traumatic brain injuries, effectively, hypoxic brain injuries, even educating other community organizations or health providers such as GPs around identifying potential issues and then trying to refer that person on or at least try to dig a little bit deep. if there's something that doesn't quite sound or seem right, having the confidence and knowledge to be able to say there might be something else here, therefore there might be another way that you can be supported.

Yeah, absolutely. I'm interested also if there are any other areas of social work practice that interest you. For instance, Belinda, would you be interested in going back to academia in social work or, Rabina, would you be interested in working in disability or clinical work again, or something completely different? So I did a couple of semesters of teaching a social work subject at the Catholic uni and I really liked that. I've got to say I guess there's something to be said with working

with people who are studying social work in regards to providing practice reality. Like, you know, I really enjoyed being able to actually connect those dots because my own experiences, I guess, of doing undergrad was that, yeah, it was quite far removed from reality ones I actually got out there. So I don't know whether, but I know that working academia also comes with the whole research side of things and that as Blender will confirm is not my cup of tea, even though it does inform obviously a lot of what we're doing, but it's not by any means to be all and at all. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think it's, I'm still fresh in having stepped back from clinical work. So I miss it. That's certainly still the case. Yeah, there was, you know,

clients that I've worked with, particularly for many years in brain injury. And, yeah, it was a big decision to move away from that. So I don't know. Yeah, I guess it's wait and see how I go. And if this is something that will sustain me in the rest of my kind of working life or whether I'll get to a point where, you know, I want to kind of get back into the front line at some point. I know I don't think I could work in direct hospital,

inpatient social work anymore. I think that is a really harsh. system that I don't know that I could survive in any further. But yeah, maybe, don't know. Kind of wait and see for me, I think still. Well, look, I think just sort of reflecting this morning that this job for me is a combination of things that, you know, I've never been able to find a job where there's that advocacy, research, writing, education, training, all in the one spot, as well. well as that really strong sort of drive around something that's seriously unjust. So I'm pretty

happy to be here at ECAV. However, those sort of values and ethics could go to a few places in the world. I really did enjoy working in a counselling and case management and advocacy capacity with people from refugee backgrounds. I definitely could do that again. even though it is pretty hard on the sort of self-care front and the complexity of disadvantage for those communities in Australia. Yeah, there's lots of horizons, I think. That's what I love about social work. There's so much sort of scope to move around in that space.

But I've realised that part of my skill base is really about using my voice, using my writing to advocate. and so, yeah, I feel pretty happy to be here right now. Yeah. Other than Centrelink, where would you not like to work? What kind of social work doesn't interest you? I never liked crisis intervention work. So having worked in kind of inpatient teams where I was covering a ward,

but part of the team was ICU, ED, yeah, didn't like that crisis intervention in and out. I do like working, I guess, in spaces where there's the opportunity to have ongoing relationships with the clients that you work with. So I think, yeah, anywhere that if it was client work, it would have that kind of built in within it. Other than that, I wouldn't do academia just purely for not wanting to dirt down the research side of things. I think I would find working in direct practice in terms of, you know, child protection,

sexual assault and domestic and family violence, I don't know how I would go actually working in direct practice. My hat certainly goes off to those clinicians in those areas because I think I would really struggle to do that. So I'm certainly happy to admit. Yeah, I think that's probably my main three of stay away from. Yeah, I think I concur with Rabina in terms of not willing to work in places where there isn't the opportunity to develop sort of safety and build relationships and

rapport with people in the work that we do. And also that sort of compromise around the quality of what we're trying to do versus the output or quantity or, you know, KPIs and that kind of stuff taking precedence over the actual quality of respect and rapport and trust. that, yes, you can probably hear I am an idealist, but that sort of is really important to me, just that ability, you know, to have time to connect. Because like Rabina said, it is about, I think it's key about building, you know, safe relationships in what we do. And if that's not feasible in terms of, you know, the work or the timing or the priorities

of the agency, otherwise, I think that would be very hard for me to kind of, you know, continue or reconcile with myself. Yeah. It sounds as though from what you've been saying that that's really something that ECAF have tried hard to instill is that value around ensuring that what you're doing has purpose but is working within the right frameworks and has the right ethos and that their workers are well looked after and that they feel happy doing what they

doing as though they're making a difference because not every organisation has the ability or has prioritised that so I'm glad to hear that the organisation is working so strongly in that sense. We are in a fortunate position like we know there isn't necessarily an equivalent to UKF in Queensland for example I don't know about the other states so currently the Royal Commission is looking at education and training and within kind of tertiary I think maybe even secondary but certainly tertiary settings in terms of what disability content is within medical degrees, social work, all those things as well. But, you know, obviously it's also about ongoing training and professional development throughout your career. So it is really important that there is a dedicated service

for ensuring that the training and resources for that sector, so the violence of abuse and neglect sector is, you know, a whole kind of organisation in itself, certainly. And I think, yeah, that's really important to have that. It's interesting what you've said in terms of finding a little bit of everything in one spot, so a role that kind of ticks all the boxes, and hopefully through your contribution, people will, or broadly people such as organisations, individuals, people with disabilities will feel empowered to identify and also access resources that they require. But I know that 2020 has been a difficult year.

for everyone, but it sounds as though you've both, as you said, found the reason to get up in the morning and you're not crusaders, but definitely advocates who are in a privileged position to make a difference. So it's really wonderful to hear people working so strongly and so passionately and obviously making a difference, but just doing a lot, I'd say sort of unsung a lot of stuff in the background that hopefully we'll be hearing about really soon. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for joining me this week.

If you would like to continue this discussion or ask anything of either myself or my guests, please visit anchor page at anchor.com slash social work spotlight. You can find me on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter, or you can email SW Spotlight Podcast at gmail.com. I'd love to hear from you. Please also let me know if there is a particular topic you'd like discussed

or if you or another person you know would like to be featured on the show. Next episode's guest is Gabriela, a student in her final year of social work at the Australian Catholic University. Originally from Brazil, she has lived in Italy and London and has been involved in charitable work from an early age. During her degree, she has had the opportunity to work within a number of different organisations, advocating for various social issues, including child protection, refugees, international students, and the Brazilian community in Australia.

I release a new episode every two weeks. Please subscribe to my podcast so you'll notify when this next episode is available. See you next time.