Social Work Spotlight - Episode 3: Paul

Episode Date: May 15, 2020

In this episode, Paul and I discuss his current role as Social Work Educator at St Vincent’s Hospital in Sydney and his fascinating journey through community health and private therapeutic practice to arrive at this point in his career. We focus on significant historical points for social work including the Richmond Report and HIV/AIDS in Sydney in the 1980s, and how Paul has blended his passions for clinical work, research, education and leadership.Links to resources and topics mentioned in this week’s episode:The National Centre for Education and Training on Addiction - http://nceta.flinders.edu.auStar Observer Article on AIDS in Australia - https://www.starobserver.com.au/features/we-didnt-know-what-was-coming-aids-in-australia/190733Through our eyes: thirty years of people living with HIV; responding to the HIV and AIDS epidemic in Australia (book available as PDF online) - https://napwha.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/through-our-eyes.pdfThe 1983 Richmond Report (Mental Health Commission of NSW) - https://nswmentalhealthcommission.com.au/richmond-reportAustralian Research Centre in Sex, Health and Society - https://www.latrobe.edu.au/arcshsThe Maudsley Model in eating disorder treatment - https://www.eatingdisorderhope.com/blog/maudsley-model-eating-disorderLink2Home homelessness information service - https://www.facs.nsw.gov.au/housing/help/ways/are-you-homelessTransoesophageal Echocardiography (TOE) - https://www.svhhearthealth.com.au/procedures/imaging/echocardiogram-echoAustralian Association of Social Workers – The Scope of Social Work Practice resources - https://www.aasw.asn.au/practitioner-resources/the-scope-of-social-work-practiceThis episode's transcript can be viewed here:https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KEciIq_4PBW_WUAZACJ2BE0piG3LGEft/view?usp=sharingThanks to Kevin Macleod of incompetech.com for our theme music.

Hi and welcome to Social Work Spotlight, where I showcase different areas of the profession in each episode. I'm your host, Yasmin McKear Wright, and today's guest is Paul. Paul has worked as a social worker for 32 years. He currently works as the social work educator at St. Vincent's Hospital in Sydney. The main focus of his practice has been in the New South Wales Public Health System, working as a clinician and a team leader in mental health, sexual health, and HIV settings, and now in hospital social work. He has also worked as a couple and family therapist in private practice and for relationships Australia, and also as a lecturer at the Australian Catholic University.

Paul's current role combines clinical practice, leadership and supervision, education and research. Paul has held voluntary leadership roles for the Australian Association of Social Workers, New South Wales branch, the National Mental Health Committee, and on the Steering Committee of the Australian College of Social Work. join me on this journey as Paul talks me through his variety of interesting roles that have led him to this point in his career and his inspiring and passionate view of the world and his place in it. Thank you so, so much for being part of this. I'm so grateful for your time and really excited to get to chat with you about your experience as a social worker. You're welcome. It's my pleasure. Yeah. I was hoping perhaps you could start by talking about your beginnings in social work.

work, what you studied and how you came about it. Well, I did nursing when I first left school and I met, in my last few years of nursing, I met some other student social workers and graduate social workers, left wing, through my left wing connections. I was involved in nurses' union politics, but far left left, um, um, I was involved in nurses, union politics, but far left a reform group was called the Nurses Reform Group. So I met these great people. Yeah.

And that made you decide to do social work. They inspired me to do social work. And the woman who did inspire me, she's still around. She's a professor of social work in a university, but she's been in academia for the last 10 or 15 years. She was in domestic violence at a policy level and clinical event at a policy level. And she was a very good influence way back then. And so I studied social work at Sydney University.

I lived in a big sharehouse held in Newtown. And I had the best time. That's probably part of your social work study, your education. That's right. Yes, a random group of people. We're going to bands, studying until 10 o'clock and then going to bands. Yeah. Working hard.

It was great fun. And did you work as a nurse? I did, just on the weekends. And so I had enough money to run a car, for example. But then... That would have been a luxury in the student world. Yeah, but then very crappy cars. If I fell apart, I'd just sort of push them into a...

abandoned. Nice. Yeah, so. Okay, so you went back and you studied social work part-time? Full-time, while you were still working as a nurse? Just I was working part-time as a nurse and a bit more in the holidays,

build up a bit of money. Wow. And did you have an aha moment where you thought, okay, I'm glad I made this shift. I'm in the right place? Not the first year doing art subjects I was just enthralled with one social or maybe psychology or something I was just thrilled with you know I was doing English literature a late modern European history and the psychology

for social workers um or no psychology one and and government yeah and I was just thrilled and then the second year a bit more specific social work subjects and and I think I really really like this because they're sort of a social justice, those things they were, how to sort of be in practice, giving a language for understanding and describing and being involved in social action, understanding social problems and being involved in social action, all those sorts of things. And then in the third year, I did really well in the third year. I got three, two distinctions and a credit. Yeah.

And that was really, I think this, I really love this. But then in the end of the third year, I also met my first boyfriend. And that was, so my marks went down in fourth year. You got derailed. I got derailed. I got two credits in a pass, which is good enough. But we were having a great time. And I was sort of involved in a bit of gate.

liberation politics as well there was all the law reform and law reform was only just coming through in the mid-80s and decriminalization

of gay stuff but there was the inconsistent age of consent 16 for boys, 18 for girls I didn't really care about personally because I wasn't interested in but it just was a social justice thing and

so yeah that's that the uni days were great you know I loved it I just really it felt quite different the rest of the I felt apart from the university people also I was a bit older than the people in my course yeah and then and the people generally I was I hadn't sort of been around such large groups of middle class people before Yeah. And beautiful private school, middle class people. And it was a bit, I felt like really a bit on the outer. I was a bit of a sort of hippie and, um, hippie slash surfing gay sort of, it was, um, and lefty.

So, so I sort of felt a bit on the outer and, um. Sounds like it provided a good political foundation though. But that was fantastic. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And what were your university placements? I did three. One was a placement evaluating a parent drug education program.

Yeah. For but for really young primary school parents or something, it was with CEDA, Center for Education and Drugs and Alcohol, but it was a sort of offshoot of them. and based at Roselle Hospital, but not in the, not just on that big campus. That was the first one. That was sort of pretty hard. Very weird, like going down into, going to places like Kurawee, while the most supervisors

that people, but delivering the workshops to people and to parents about how. to talk about drugs with their primary school age children and it wasn't just I don't know I did it but I don't think I accept and I'm meant to be evaluating the helping to evaluate so that was then I did a placement at St. George Hospital in the oncology ward and then I did a placement at parameter sexual health center in the yeah and that was in 87 that was when HIV was big and scary and so that was that was really full-on yeah yeah there was no treatments at that time and so I guess she would have felt quite powerless as a

social worker to really pull together resources given the stigma as well the stigma all of that stigma terror talk about safe sex with people But it was a stigma thing. And this was in the, in western Sydney as well, the sort of more working class men who have sex with men. And yeah, there were groups. And there was all this people being rejected by their families and all of these sorts of those horrific stories that you would hear.

And all people discovering their son was gay when he went into hospital for the first time with pneumonia or something like that. It was, even though we were more sort of outpatient. But suddenly you're thrown under the microscope. Yeah, yeah. So that was all, that was, it was intense. It was quite intense when I think back about on it.

And I was acting as by the end of the placement, as you would expect, acting, you know, practicing independently, taking histories, counseling, giving results, not positive results. not positive results but giving results and talk you know goes all the pre-and-post test counselling yeah and did that shape what you then wanted to do as a roll-out by uni yeah it did and I went for a job at I had to do a slightly longer placement because the St George one I finished a bit early and there was a guy who was at uni, there was a job came up there and this guy

turned up at, you know, he got the job and I was orienting him. I was still finishing my placement well into December and this guy had got this job and I thought, oh okay, there was another job I went for at St Vincent's Hospital on Ward 17

and I didn't even get an interview I don't think it was an interviewer. I came offered me, you'd come and talk about the role and two women but they spent like an hour and a half talking me out of the job, really. Oh, wow. Yeah, just,

but, you know, it's really tough. It's really hard. You're too young. You're too young to do this, that sort of thing. How did you find that? You would have been so enthusiastic and excited to work in that space. I would have thought, well, especially when people, three or four years younger than me,

like that colleague, he was a young gay man, he got, he got this position at Parramatta, but in the end of it, oh, well, all right, if that's, if that's, Because they basically wouldn't let me leave until I said I wasn't going to go for it. That's how I recall. Because it went on for, the conversation went on for such a long time. How would, you know, how would you cope with death and dying?

What are your supports? And do you think that was purely age? I don't know. It was intense, I think, at St Vincent's in 1988. And it was like the epicenter in Sydney. And I think people were being treated. at other hospitals but and she just thought you were too young just and not experienced not experienced enough I was a new grad you know just a new grad so where did you where did you find

your feet where was your first job then end up being Centrelink okay and I just slumming slummoxed around there for a while just it was good you know I had assessments and that was a paramatta and then I got jobs in the city and I was there for three or four years I learned a bit about, you know, about systems and it wasn't my true love. But that was about until 1990 or 91. And then I got a job in central Sydney with when the new crisis teams were being launched in Redfern, Glebe and Marrickville. It was a new model of care. They started at in Burwood a couple of years before, but it was.

It was coinciding with the closure of all the big hospitals, you know, the Richmond report and bringing people want to be cared for in the community. And it was a big shift, you know. Because it was an after-hour service, you could offer care and supervision of people into the evenings and do a set, prevent hospitalisations, that's what we were trying to do. And also, decrease for length of stay. That was, they were the goal. But using your relationship because you would, if you could get them out of a hospital,

you could give them intensive community support until they were well enough and then maybe hand them over to the regular care team. I don't know what it was called back then, a case management team or something. So it was a separate team, but when they were stabilized, they could be, someone might be just getting twice weekly visits, but we would do more intensive support. Okay. And that was great. I loved that. Yeah.

Yeah, I felt really great sense of belonging and really interesting work and learning about counselling. And then we amalgamated with Glebe and so, you know, health always changes. It always changes. We were based in Glebe and I just remember that so much of a job was spent in the car, like just because travelling from Glebe, we still sort of kept people that we knew over in Redfern, Alexandria, wherever the boundary was. But it felt like you were just driving all the time. Right. In peak hour traffic, cross the Parameda Road, bleep. So I was there for about three years.

Then I got a job at 2010, a few streets away, still in Glee. And that was as a senior youth worker. And 2010 then was a collective. As opposed to the formal board of management, it was explicitly a collective. Okay. Is it still run that way? No, no. Because it was unworkable if, it only worked if people got on.

Okay. And it was quite outdated. I don't think there's many organators, even back then in the, whatever, the early 90s. I don't think there was many, or. organizations with that sort of structure that where the workers and the board everyone had because there was still a board or a management committee everyone had equal equal sort of standing and whereas you know the board would usually that there would be a manager accountable to the board and then but we had a collective and it was

a structure that funding body bodies wouldn't wouldn't and it turned out they didn't because they brought in changes and a more hierarchical, they brought in managers and I was fine with that, you know. But then it kept on evolving and that was good experience too. Just, you know, it was sort of like we had a really good supervisor,

an external supervisor who helped us to sort of, you know, helping to give a sense of safe harbour relationships, a sense of a safe harbor relationship. but safety like boundaries and explicit. But giving them a bit of a chance to act out if I wanted to or just to sort of to heal, so it was a sort of quite nurturing family-like, but that didn't fit with a sort of extended lens of study.

Yeah. That didn't really fit with, again, with funding models, which is you get someone stabilized off the street, move them into, from supported to semi-supported to independent. and living and live the next slot in, you know. And so it wasn't probably a great news, even though we gave us a few cohorts, you know, lovely experiences of, you know, a family life.

But it was a nice sort of family feel. But then we'd leave at 11 or our evening shift. And they were unsupervised until we came back at 8 o'clock in the morning. And I think they got up to a bit of business. mischief. And that's, yeah, not safe. You know, the office was broken into, there were some wild, wild things.

There were sex work from there and various people come back to stay and just make sure they're out of there. Yeah. Because there were quite some quite vulnerable people, traumatized young people, and to have really drug crazed, you know, young women quite traumatized, to have, you know, 24-year-old boys partying and bringing other people back for sex paid or, you know,

it was not a safe environment. So they changed it to sleepovers and curfews and all of that. Then I got a job at Kirkton Road, recognising the social work role, a bit more interested in counselling, teamwork, public health, you know, integrating what I wanted to do into public health. a primary health care, you know, a model of care sort of thing. And what's the purpose of Kirkton Road back then, what it is now? It is, yeah. Primary health care for all, but especially for those marginalized groups and sex workers, injecting drug users, homeless youth.

So a safe space. A safe space, harm reduction methodology. And because I had my nursing, the health sort of knowledge, I really got it. really got the model and the sort of the implications of social factors psychosocial factors on health and so it made sense to me and I you know I flourished there really and yeah how did you end up at ACU oh well there's still a few more things that happened so I was only I was there for five years okay um I met Michael while I was there So it's 22 years ago, I left.

And so my last two years, I was acting as a counselling unit manager, but I never seemed to be able to, I went for it a couple of times and never quite got it. And so I was becoming a bit more career focused. This is in my mid-30s. But I probably was ready for to move on. It was pretty intense work. Working with so many people, everybody is actively, actively in use. and it's quite a sort of, the environment is a bit wild,

and some behaviours were mirrored in parts of the style. But still, great quality of care, but I was personally just ready. You know, shift work. I don't know, there's a couple of things happened. Once a guy pulled a knife out, it did not to stab me, but to say this is what I'm doing to people who give me the sheds. And I was just out on the street with them. him talking and I sort of vaguely knew him but that chilled me and then another time someone

shot some things at the windows of the bus so you became aware of your vulnerability in that space yeah yeah so I got a job as a team leader at St George Sexual Health Center not that far away but it wasn't they weren't my people yeah and there wasn't a great sense of belonging and but I was there for three years or so. And then the job as a senior counsellor, Sydney's sexual health, came up. And it was slightly more money. It was like a level four. And also, you know, in the city.

And so just a bus ride, a train ride and then a walk home. You know, just Michael was working in the city at that time. And I went there and had a very good time. It was really lovely, interesting work. And I had a bigger team to lead as well, so I was building my leadership skills. I was on the management committee of the centre. But then there was still lots of money for training around at that time. And so I began my master's, that's right, because I also did my master's in couple and family therapy in between St. George, started at St. George and finished at Sydney Sexual Health.

But the first few modules were paid for by study. grants and then I got credit for what I for the for the master's degree in the social school that was the masters was fantastic that really shaped my my lens my confidence in myself and the possibilities as well that were inherent in therapeutic work you know systematic work based on theory and research and polished skills. One of the benefits of this program was a real skills component, live supervision, where you're working with actual clients, where you get supported through a session and give feedback live supervision, you know. It was amazing. I know in social work there seems to be a

disconnect between academia or research and practice when I think that perception and should be shifting, it should be informing each other. That's right. And we don't do one without the other. No. Well, I came, I feel like I almost came late to it because I was whatever. Well, it's probably 10 years, a bit over 10 years out. It was the right time.

And, but that's given me such, I feel so much stronger in my, you know, the importance of theory. And to get taken more seriously, take yourself seriously, what you could, you could offer things to patients in the, a greater death, go deeper with them. So that was all happening. Then I went on a weeks long social qualitative research course down in Melbourne at Arches, Australian Centre for Research in Research in Culture, Health and Society, or Sex, Health and Society, somewhere, sex is in there, sexuality is in there, and culture. And that course was meant to help you do a research proposal.

and my research proposal ended up being how do gay men manage monogamy and non-monogamy in their committed relationships? Because that was an issue coming up in my practice at Sydney Sexual Health. And they said, this is a great idea. You've really articulated, why don't you see if you can take it further?

So I contacted the people who I'd worked with in the Masters program because I thought it could enhance my practice. and they accepted me for a research degree. Started with Master of Research, but then upgraded to a PhD. And then I did my PhD. And you taught at university as well? I did, yeah. Tutoring, some lectures, marking.

And I worked part-time as a child and family counselor at Relationships Australia. Okay. You've had so much experience in very varied places. It is varied. Isn't it? And it sounds as though you just stumbled upon these places by accident, but you managed to pick a little bit from each place that you've worked to develop your own style of practice and develop your own way of working

and your perception of what it is that social workers can do and do-do. And then you ended up coming back into clinical. That's right. Yeah. I wasn't sure I wanted to. And my first job passed the degree was three days a week in the mental health team at Children's Hospital, Sydney Children's Hospital. Yeah. And then I kept my private practice going.

Okay. And I kept some teaching going. How was it working with kids? I didn't really like, I wasn't be frightened of. Well, the main ones that we worked with were young women. It was a eating disorders program. Oh, wow. And then a few other people hospitalized,

but mainly the people who needed inpatient treatment because it was a non-gazetted unit, so it was an open ward. Those people were specialed. So that means they had one-on-one nursing. Yeah, but it wasn't a gazetted locked facility at that time. It has since become that.

So we could only take certain people, people and a lot of them were young women children with eating disorders and some conversion conversion illnesses but not no major sort of behavioral things or no sort of 17-year-old boys out of off their chops on you know speed or steroid psychosis we wouldn't that you could handle well they didn't have any they weren't I don't know where they went but they because the because it was also it was called the adolescent ward and so there was other older children with you know complex fractures and other medical issues non-cancer there was still the cancer wards so a lot of child protection stuff sounds like there was child protection there was a lot of family

work so I did I really love the family work helping the families deal with the crisis of of diagnosis and the grief at this is not the future I've envisaged for my beautiful my beautiful daughter the illness has made her become a stranger a monstrous a terrifying stranger and our model was the Maudsley model evidence based family, mortally family-based treatment of anorexia and it involved basically helping to support the parents to insist their children eat. Once they got past a got to a healthy enough weight that they are not in danger of dying, but they still need support to eat because often the children would just, the patients would do what they needed to do to get out of hospital,

and then resume the behaviors at home. Did you get a lot of bounce back? Yep, yep. Frequent Flyers and Rob, but also felt like we were asking them to do the impossible, but it is possible because we would use really heightened language. Like, your child will die without you. You're the only ones who can do it.

The illness will take over and she will die unless you force it. for certain it was really we deliberately chose really heightened language that was what the model called on us to do you're not a baby you're a you're a 13 year old young woman and you are going to eat this meal that I prepared for you yeah and it was called going broken record and it's it did work it did work um but it was very hard was that a specific social work model? Social work was involved in it. It's a multi-disciplinary model, but social work were involved in it, especially the family therapy side of things. And in Australia,

the people who were mainly dealing with was a psychologist and a social worker. But it was evidence-based, and it was because it did work. It did work eventually. I feel like that sort of work you just need to have a team around you. Yeah, you had to have a team around you. You might be the primary therapist, but you had to have a team around the pediatrician, the dietitian, the psychiatrists. So it was amazing and that's interesting, but it's all, I remember it so vividly. And what's your current role like?

My current role is, it's interesting when you, you said you've done a bit of everything because now I'm doing a bit of everything. Yeah. So this is kind of your career trajectory has led you to this point. It sounds like. I'm an all-rounder and which I can manage projects. A skilled clinical supervisor. I'm a student educator. I'm a team leader. And I am a highly skilled clinician. Did I say research? And I can read. I can write. and research and I can speak in large groups. I know that there would never be a typical day for you,

but what's a common day like for you? A common day? Again, it's probably a mixed bag of the first thing to do is to make sure my team is to see what the live of land is clinically. So the team leader takes, team leadership duties take priority. And so if it's say a Wednesday is a typical, day and who needs help on an ideal day everyone's present there's no sort of urgent guardianships or

something i might have one or two cases that i'm following through and i can keep i can do a sort of light clinical load um because i usually will schedule a few other things in my day like a supervision or a working party. Student work, yeah. So I put a few of those things in. How do you manage your time when you know that you've dedicated some time to supervising another clinician,

but other things come up? Yeah. I just have to sort of, this morning it came up. I was working with the guy, he had to go to be discharged. He's a homeless man, multiple stabbing, drug and alcohol, I've been out of prison, but I had him eating out of my hand, purring like a kitten,

and accepting he was going to go and I was going to help him get on to link to home. And I got delayed and then I said, I'll let you sleep and then I'll come back. I got delayed and then I was meant to be at 1130 and so I looked in the window, he's still sleeping. I thought, I won't cancel supervision and do this work or all. just let him sleep. So I said to the nurse, I'm onto this guy. If he does wake up, tell him I'll be back in an hour. And I did the supervision. And I'm really glad I did. And then I just sort of get into the zone. And it probably takes me a while to sort of be totally present. But they wouldn't know that.

But I just know that my thinking, it's a different sort of thinking that you're doing and reflecting. and... Do you find it exhausting, switching like that? Yes. I'm sort of... Because the clinical work is I'm up and down the stairs. It's good, but some things I can just sort of turn off and say, okay, I've linked these two people.

I'm going to listen to what they say because I need to be... But I don't have to do anything. So I sort of just standing there listening while the NDIS person does her spiel and everyone. And I just go, present but I could also zone out I'm looking out the window I think oh gee I love that view so I could sort of zone out a bit and um but they wouldn't know that I'm just sort of listening but I've turned down the dial a bit and taking in what you need to yeah and sort of

attaching from the story a bit knowing but I've I can't solve this gigantic complex problem but I've helped with the question she had. So, ideally, it's, I've got a few of my responsibilities. An ideal day would be to factor in some research time. And so, okay, I'm going to start, I've got this research project, and I'm going to, I'm going to spend two hours on the, on the research, on the ethics application. Okay. That would be, that, but research gets,

bumped to the bottom. It's not the priority. Yeah. You talked about in your other roles, the issue, sometimes it's an issue, sometimes not of resources, especially in social work. They can be quite scarce and it's difficult to justify what you're doing. But how do you find that in a hospital setting? Yeah.

As about priorities, I guess. And I am a resource and I have to sort of negotiate how I spread. myself I guess and it's a contested area because my team would want me would like me full time in the team the other clinical staff would love me to be there over time my boss wants me to be doing certain things the director wants me to be doing certain things I've got my own interests so I guess you've also got capacity to provide education to the clinicians and to the students So that's an incredible resource that otherwise they have to go externally. That's right. Yeah. But as my understanding of the existential world of psychotherapy opens up and how about shaping my practice, I'm going to do presentations on that.

People have asked for more couple and family work. But each of those will require me saying no to something else. And yeah, no to something else. Do you think that's your biggest challenge in that role is knowing that you could do so many things but just being one person? Yeah, it is hard to, how to get the balance right and what that balance looks like. And for example, now with the health crisis, it's clear because everything else is being put to aside, you know, non-essential gatherings, non-essential activities. Right. There's a workshop I was going to run next week. which has been cancelled, so I would have, should have, I would have been spending this week,

probably sometime over the weekend, getting that ready. That's been removed. There's new students who they're not allowed to start. So that's a university. No, it's a hospital saying, we're limiting non-essential people coming on campus. Wow. Yeah. And...

So I guess they would find an alternative placement, but a hospital is such a wonderful place to learn. I'm hoping it doesn't come to that. Oh, what a shame. I'm hoping, like, this will all change in a month or so, and they start a month later or something. That's because it has big implications. But if it keeps on going, that's, you know,

because I'm sure other government departments, They've got to have their sort of, I guess that's because we are a reservoir of vulnerable people, like aged people, whereas, you know, you can go into people's homes. And I guess there's that media implication of have we let something happen. Yeah. And they're very conscious of that. So also non-essential travel is being limited. So since I've been back, they've been inviting me into this.

fund, that inclusive health innovation fund, and they're doing things, large amounts of money that our organisation holds to focus on marginal programmes and care of, innovative programs and care of the most marginalised people, mental health, homelessness, drug and alcohol, refugees, Aboriginal people. And where has that money come from? Who contributes to that? The organisation decides to put it aside. And it sounds like an enormous amount of money, but in the whole scheme of things, it's not that much.

In local health districts, St Vincent's Health is much smaller. But it's an organisational priority for them to, it's the money is connected to the mission, the group, that part of the leadership. But it's got researchers and clinicians. And they're inviting people like me into it. So that could be quite rich. And there was going to be a forum where that in Melbourne to look at all the latest projects and probably to meet people like-minded, that's been cancelled. Oh, what issue is.

And that it's not often that you get in our public hospital work to get, you know, handpicked to be flown somewhere. Anyway, that will happen, but that's been cancelled. Just when is the question? Yeah. What's your favourite part about your current role? So it's a few different. The most favourite is the smile on a patient,

the connection that I make with somebody, an authentic connection where they feel cared for and I can see it in their face or in the way they relax or in the way they soften or cry and I think I've touched that person. So creating warmth and connection in a very sterile environment. Yeah, and kindness and love, create as a loving connection.

And it's only since I've been back there, back at St. Vincent's after my break that I've been calling it a loving connection. You know, I want to give this person, this family inexperience of being loved. And I said that in supervision. And my supervisor was quite curious. and as to where that comes from. I said, because, you know, it was a connection. You could relate to what this family wanted to do.

And I thought, why not, you know, why not give somebody that experience it for, it doesn't happen with everybody, but... What do you think's changed to change that perception of how you work? Probably confidence and being not afraid, of death or less afraid of death myself. I'm thinking of the sort of, a couple of the ones where it's been a family, helping a family at end of life and not being afraid when death is in the room, even if it hasn't actually happened, but it's, it's in the corners. Sure, the elephant.

It's there. And it's to be authentic and real and to show a moment. To show a moment. emotion, not to let it take over, but to not be ashamed if my voice quaveres or if I feel that's sort of that my breath is going away, but then remembering to breathe as well. You know, these are all the other non-social work training I've done in mindfulness and breath and connection and stuff. Self-awareness. Yeah. So it's those moments of connection, I think, that, um,

and giving the person experience of being heard and cared for and loved. And that's probably, that is, yep, that is the main one. And given what you were saying before about your other roles and how much traveling you had to do, it must be really nice just being able to walk to and from work if you want to, if the weather's good. I never walk to work because I'm such a sweaty, a sweaty betty. But I, but to walk home is, well, I should maybe get on the, I don't want to be late.

And I thought, oh, I was just walking to bus. I'm going to keep on going. I was just, and I think, these are the days that I love. And it is, I let go. I can feel myself letting go. And I'm walking through the world. It puts things in perspective. There's the hospital.

And then I'm in home. Is that how you care for yourself? Or do you see self-care coming in different ways? I'm conscious of, exercise is you know this is um i did actually pack my um gym gear this morning uh or last night um because i haven't been because the lift has been out i haven't been doing any sort of i've just been walking home and climbing the stairs and yeah and i thought i really have got to get back into a bit more sort of because that's you know just that extra bit of exercise um like a bit

of cardio and so I did it on Tuesday and I thought Tuesdays and Thursdays normally I do mornings and then come home and then go back but I don't want to do that many stick so that is exercise but I am conscious of this is a time to let go to look around me to be conscious of people to let people pass if they're rushing or you know to get out of people's way I just to look at people to let myself be looked You know. You also have a lot of interests outside of work. I do, yes.

The piano, that's the other thing I love to rush home too. And you sing? I haven't been singing a lot because the piano's taken over. Okay. Yeah. Formal study of the piano. And I passed my third grade exam late last year. and that was the first exam I did

and now I'm I just love it it's I play at work not in the the mezzanine piano but there's another piano that's a little intimidating at this point that's a bit too much

I do if there's no one around but I also that kind of draws a crowd though does and you've got you've got to have your music I need to have my music I can't just play many things from memory. I can only play a few bars of things from memory. Yeah. Our life here, you know, that's all part of self-care that, you know, looking after this relationship and it's a priority.

And you'll Michael travel quite a bit. We do travel, yeah. We've discovered walking as a form of, you know, hiking, going on hikes, instead of staying in. cities in Europe or saying we're going on a walking tool like walking in Cornwall or walking in Slovenia or New Zealand. This is now the rather than staying in a hotel and going to museums and restaurants. We'll still do a bit of that, but walking is now not mountain climbing. Easy to moderate and not dangerous high altitude, but walking. being in the world and in nature, that's now.

And we're different, Michael's not as fit as me, so I walk a bit ahead, then I sit down and he arrives. I often get up and he thinks, wait, I want to rest now. I don't do enough yoga. I've got mats strategically placed around that. To try to prompt you. Just remind you that you need to do something. And I've got apps and, you know.

Best intentions. Yeah, but I will this week. You can feel it. And it's, yeah, for the posture and I think study is like the existential. It's finding new ways to think about the work and myself in the work. Yeah, tell me about your new project. It's studying, it's the Centre for Existential. practice and it's in Woolamalu and I went to have been doing a bit of reading and

then I thought oh look I want to take this a bit further you remember the prize you won but well that I won as well a few years later obviously I used that research price the research I used that money to for my for a two-day workshop an overview of existential work and then stage one of this three of a sort of certificate in existential practice and I've just finished level two but it was good you know that paid for the first and I like it it's starting to make sense I had struggled for a while but it's now sort of starting to make sense as a form of inquiry not trying to heal people but to understand their their way

worldview and how that worldview affects the way they live and how do they want to live, you know, what do they want from life? And do you see that directly impacting your work now, or is it something that you might then? It's gradually creeping in, and I also want to bring it into my supervision practice, because that's where I'm doing my most sort of one-to-one stuff. And I've got a book on existential supervision as well, which I'll get to at some point. Because I don't do a lot of ongoing counselling, but a lot of it is systems making things happen. But my supervision practice is with people over time and deepening relationships. And this fits perfectly with that.

And I've started to listen for some of themes about, you know, anxiety and life's finite quality and loneliness, isolation, essential loneliness, responsibility, freedom, all these sorts of things. Quite expansive sort of themes. But applicable to some very specific things. Yeah. Yeah, and how do they affect, you know, a person's beliefs? And so it's just like a form of inquiry, but quite a sort of compassionate and that's what I'm getting. That's where I'm at at the moment, just an openness to it and a curiosity to it with it. And once I get a bit more, I'm going to say to people, you know, this is, I'm, I want to try some things with you, you know, once I get more into it.

But the supervision is about, you know, what do you want? And what does this mean to you? And what will be most helpful for you? And how does this relate to how your values, your practice? And, you know, it is a form of inquiry anyway. So. Yeah. So if time and money weren't an issue for you, where would you like to go to next?

Where does your passion like? Oh, I love that question. I would like to keep on working. I would like to, and I feel I want to work a bit longer to get a comfortable retirement, full of travel, concerts,

a walking tours. Is there any form of social work that you would love to try? Probably. It's the remote area stuff. I still feel I will get to. Maybe not sort of like for a year-long contracts,

but, To try and get a taste or something, you know, there's things I feel I can give, but also learn and in that space about, but that's sort of work with Aboriginal people in their own communities. That's the goal. I'm quite interested in palliative care work as well, end-of-life stuff, and I don't want to give up the possibility of, you know,

my therapeutic skills, still there and my listening, my language skills are still there. I'd like to go to four days a week and spend even, you know, nine-day, fortnight and have a day because I want to add piano, but also French, French lessons. That's the other goal I've got to become fluent in French. Is there any type of social work that you're really not interested in? Yes. I'm not interested in private practice anymore. We didn't talk about private practice. We sort of glossed over that.

It was a great experience, but it's not what I want. It's not how I want to practice. Do you think it's because of the isolation? Isolation? Isolation? It's the main thing, yeah. I was always doing it at the end of something. You know, at the end of it, I would do half a day of teaching and then private practice. It would go into the evening.

I was often so tired and hungry and this was exhausting really because you had to offer some private practice say well these are my hours and if you want me enough you'll come but I never I always offered after hours and sometimes I would do two evenings a week

because people couples would want to come it was it really honed and refined my therapy skills but and it wasn't really worth it for the for the investment that I've had in my education it was it was yeah it just wasn't it didn't sort of returns and I feel like I wanted returns at this point in my life I want to don't want to exhaust myself and then so that's why I'm to come back into organizations There's all that, and there's a bit more variety. So I don't want to go back to private practice, but I still want to work therapeutically with people.

I'm quite interested in aged care. I love working with the aged person themselves, but also even, but the families, you know, who are often my age. I see their parents are now in their 80s and 90s, and mum would have turned 80 in November, which is young these days, but she died 20 years ago. So I probably don't want to work in child protection,

drug and alcohol, mental health, although I, you know, I can work with when those present in it. The physical health stuff, it's interesting. And I don't mind the complexity all wrapped into one, you know. Sure, you'd get snippets of child protection. or drunk alcohol or wherever you go. Given that you've worked in health settings for such a long time,

what have you seen in terms of advancements within social work? I think I'm seeing more confidence in the social work role and social work identity and the contributions social workers can make and how the role is so important in a team approach to health care and how that gives me confidence and I teach others their confidence to say this is really important you know this this lens this this perspective is really important and you need to listen because it's going to make your work better you know it's going to if you give me time to do the work I need to do with the person and value it it will the person's

going to do better. They're not going to be, you know, back in hospital straight away. They're not going to be causing grief to people. So do you find there's more respect and understanding of the social work role within health? I think there's more openness to it. And I don't know if it's me being, you know, we're getting a bit more gravitas because the younger doctors, you know, will come up to me. Oh, poor, that's good. I really need, I wanted to know this or can I ask you this. People are asking me things and all I will just go up to say this is what I've done. This is my, I've been to see this person as team requests. This is my assessment. And sometimes I say, well, it doesn't matter they've got to go. I say, well, this is a risk and and maybe try and

negotiate something. And it's so arbitrary that we need the bed is, you know, but they need the bed too. you know, being a bit more clear of working from my value base and how it aligns with the organisation's base, I think that's given me the common. And I felt that much more strongly at St Vincent's than I did in the local health district land. They have values, but they didn't inspire me or they didn't align so strongly with the social work values and the St Vincent's values they so align with mine they give they say you know from a value of compassion from a value of justice we need to do this and we can step up to this and what do you see changing in the next say five 10 20 years in this field it's hard to say there's there is this sort of

frontier of amazing technologies and but there's also there's still people who fall over fall over and they fall off things and they break bones and they get knocked off their bikes and so there's there's always these still people are going to just keep on breaking bones and yeah um there's going to the people who we deal with there's still going to be problem drinkers who you know mental health drug you know so they're and they're the ones that we're just going to be amongst we would like I would like and I'm starting to talk to others there's gaps in services we identify and how to systematically collect some data on whether it's expansion of things like TNI house you know or other sort of

supported places that aren't age care facilities that can manage difficult behaviors but still keep the person's dignity they don't have to be drugged and they may be able to have a siggy and a drink if that's what they that's what they want how do you reconcile that knowledge that regardless of what you do and how well you work with someone they're going to keep coming back sometimes I'm troubled but most of the time I think this is this is it has an end point you know and I see because I see them I see them getting frailer and more seriously injured and a longer stay I probably but I think oh well we've got to keep we have a duty of care and and hopefully and these people are probably heading off the street into supported accommodation or something even if they're under age but then

There's another lot of people who just gives me a little bit of a, it's a bit of a burr in the, under the saddle, of people who feel that this is free healthcare, so just give me, give me, give me, give me, give me. And I deserve, give me, give me, give me Samaritan Fund, give me, let me stay, give me, and better still using drugs. in the moments before they're being discharged. I go away to get somebody some clothes and an opal card. And he said, oh, and what about that? You've also promised me that. Okay, well. And then come back and his girlfriend bought him a shot.

And he can't stand up. He's saying, oh, but you said you'd get me a... I said, but just a sense that it isn't a free. It isn't the, you know, if somebody pays, you know, the community pays, the taxpayer pays, the choices made there mean we can't make choices there. So there's this, that's sometimes, and not just those, that's sort of actively drug using people, but other people, a sort of sense of, well, this is a hospital, you should do this for me, and I want you to fix, you know, all these other aspects of my life, and we'd, and get cranky when you can't.

and you say well this is what I can offer you is that all you know it's and you know they can see us running around sweating you know I've got we're runners quite often because you know we're running and so feeling unappreciated it's or just not not me personally but not appreciating the system and the care and that we've stayed back late that we've come in on call or that not respecting the system because I just assume this is what everybody gets but when you know that this is a world-class very good public health service that we have compared to so much of the rest of the world.

Yeah, you wish they could see the bigger picture. Yeah. And all it does is just give me, I don't, I don't get a saw a saw buff. I just, it's just like, that's just a sort of a shake, a mental shake of the head, you know, just, you know, just, you know, but then you just move on to next thing the next um yeah it just washes it washes over but you just think people don't realize you know the amount of work that the costs for gone you know um the take it for granted it doesn't change what we do but it just you you think and you don't need to be validated but it's just that people don't realize how good we have it it's more of us

You know, this rich country, you know. But people are on, they have pensions that are livable. Obviously not, the benefits aren't, but the pensions are livable, you know, to an extent compared to there's subsidized, there's public health, you know, there's subsidized medicines, there's free public health care. I see it when people who aren't insured, obviously, it's travelers who have an accident, and you see a bill for three days of care is $10,000. Yeah, wow.

It becomes real. It's, you know, $10,000 is a lot of money for you and me, and we're working people, and it's, and, you know, hopefully they're enjoyed if they're not, it's, but that doesn't matter, you know, just get on, because you can, the next, you turn around and then there's something really, another really good thing to happen. Yeah. There's so much that happens in a day that...

What impact do you think technology will have in our future? I'm excited by that. I'd like to learn more about that. I've been given... I've got a little Mac Surface Pro, which is again, is a really... But I feel quite paranoid about taking it onto the ward because it's like $1,800 worth. And it fits in my little...

portfolio. So I can do things. I don't like taking it into the bed area of a because I'm just so conscious of germs and you don't want to transfer it from one person to. Yeah and so there's lots so there's lots of workstations that it's but there are things we have to do with the patient at the bedside so I have usually take one of the nurses workstations sometimes I use mine I think it does, knowledge is at our fingertips, you know, I can just, I wonder if that plays, if we just Google, press Google, say, what is the nearest blah blah, or what is, and the medical condition, and so what is a toe? And, I haven't looked that one up, actually, T-O-E, but that you can actually look things up and you've got you know doctor Google and doctor

Wikipedia and so bits of information I think I can see it as well in people don't have to have huge huge surgeries you know huge incisions yeah all the wards I work in as a gastro surgery but there's a lot more laparoscopic which is more high-tech, but it's... It reduces the recovery time as well. Yeah, so it's... Yeah, they're better quicker and it does mean people...

What do you mean, I'm going home after five days? They're not quite prepared mentally. There's still the importance of actual personal care, you know, actual physical carers, that whatever, however much technology aids and speed things up and I think it does help us to see more people the allocation because I can bring that computer with me I can just to to our morning huddles I can say okay this person hasn't been seen can you take this can you take this

oh we've got a directive I'll just look that up we can get through a bit of information information is shared much more quickly and calendar so that it's it makes I think it makes us more productive Yeah. And I think that's one of the differences. There's all stuff happening with genomes and, but I don't know much about it, but I think there is, you know, they, again, Sir Vincent's very much wanting, bringing research into practice. There's so many big research institutes on the campus. So there's a constant environment of learning. Yeah. And I'd love to, but there's also the, like the Plunkett Center, you know, there's a center, you know, there's a, set, send us a research in ethics or, you know, philosophy or... I like that the organisation is that interested in research, and translational research and all of that.

I know that you love reading and you love researching, but is there anywhere particular that you would recommend people go if they're wanting to know a little bit more about health, social work, or various topics like the ones you've mentioned? Yeah. Well, the ASW scope of practice documents are really good. They're only like eight or nine pages or something, but I get all of our students to read them

because they're sort of like a foundational document, I guess. Then I think it's a hospital placement is, you know, it's really, it's a great way to, a health placement in your social work degrees or, Or if not that, people haven't had a health experience in placement or in profession and wanting to get into a hospital experience. They have to talk about how their skills might be transferable and what will help, what sort of areas of knowledge of systems and general knowledge. I've had people ask me that. You know, they're coming from facts, for example, or something.

And so how do my skills translate? So I've talked about assessment, assessment skills, the child protection, domestic violence, you know, those things, they're transferable. But it's a different context where you're treating them. Knowledge of teams and teamwork. A knowledge of what a health journey looks like and the impact, what adjustment to illness. and adjustment to wellness means, all those sorts of things.

You've got to look that up somewhere and have a, be able to articulate your understanding of it. Aging, an understanding of your aging process and what that means, grief and loss. You know, all of these things, you get exposure to in other areas, mental health, drug and alcohol, so they're transferable. But if they can really shine in their assessment skills, their conceptualization, their analysis, their reflective skills, that helps.

But often someone more junior who's been in a hospital, you can talk, you know, knows the services and all of that. They can often sort of trump another person with more experience, but from an out, from an outside. So trying to get an understanding of the context of, it's just really important. Yeah. I think you've given such a great overview of different types of social work in and outside of health.

And I'm so incredibly appreciative. and I think people are going to learn a lot. Thank you. I will get some links as well so people can go off and do their own research and have a think about the types of things you've commented on. But other than that, is there anything else you wanted to mention?

I think I guess having some interpersonal skills are so essential to hospital and health social work, I think, being able to talk and listen, communicate, navigate, so while holding on to yourself and knowledge of systems and those sorts of things I think are really, they're really important I guess. Yeah, yeah. But it's also highlighted, I think, that there is such diversity, there is such capacity to build experience as you go and to really find where you fit and what you're passionate about.

All right. Well, we'll leave it at that. Thanks again, Paul, so much. Thank you, Yasmin. It's been a pleasure. If you would like to continue this discussion or ask anything of either myself or Paul, please visit my anchor page at anchor.fm-slash social work spotlight.

Or you can find me on Facebook, Instagram or Twitter, or you can email SW Spotlight Podcast at gmail.com. I'd love to hear from you. please also let me know if there is a particular topic you'd like discussed or if you or another person you know would like to be featured on the show. And finally, a quick thank you to anchor.fm for hosting this podcast. Next episode's guest is Chad, an experienced forensic social worker, three times stage four cancer survivor and tech founder of a mobile application that assists people with scheduling, encouraging self-care and reflection, and his work is assisting patients to

legitimize medical cannabis as part of a holistic approach to their health care. I release a new episode every two weeks. Please subscribe to my podcast so you are notified whenever this next episode is available. See you next time.