Social Work Spotlight - Episode 52: Mark

Episode Date: March 4, 2022

In this episode I speak with Mark, a social worker from Canada who has worked in the mental health space for the last 10 years in a range of roles including case management, clinical NDIS work, leadership roles as a team leader and program manager, and now owner of a private practice Clarity Therapy. Mark's practice incorporates CBT, ACT, and DBT principles mixed with some eco therapy, and Mark works mainly with youth and young adults.Links to resources mentioned in this week’s episode:Clarity Therapy - www.claritytherapy.com.auMark’s email and Instagram - [e-mail] & @claritytherapy_auRuss Harris, The Happiness Trap - https://thehappinesstrap.com/Psychology tools, downloads - https://www.psychologytools.com/downloads/worksheets-exercises-guides-handouts/The Great Psychotherapy Debate, book by Wampold & Imel - https://www.routledge.com/The-Great-Psychotherapy-Debate-The-Evidence-for-What-Makes-Psychotherapy/Wampold-Imel/p/book/9780805857092Disability Support Pension, Services Australia - https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/disability-support-pensionWaves of Wellness Foundation - https://www.foundationwow.org/Headspace Australia - https://headspace.org.auThis episode's transcript can be viewed here:https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MBw9p9hERPZdO8i6p52Vm5WhJ1CBbT4KJ_5PrMqO2Gs/edit?usp=sharingThanks to Kevin Macleod of incompetech.com for our theme music.

Hi and welcome to social work spotlight where I showcase different areas of the profession each episode. I'm your host, Yasmin McKee Wright, and today's guest is Mark. Mark is a social worker from Canada who has worked in the mental health space for the last 10 years in a range of roles including case management, clinical NDIS work, leadership roles as a team leader and program manager, and now owner of a private practice clarity therapy. Mark's practice incorporates CBT, ACT, and and DBT principles mixed with some ecotherapy, and Mark works mainly with youth and young adults. Thanks so much, Mark, for coming on to the podcast.

Really happy to have you here to have a chat about your experience and private practice that you've started. Yeah, no worries. Thanks for having me. When did you start as a social worker and what drew you to the profession? So I started, I got my BSW in Canada. I'm actually from a place called Windsor, Ontario. about four hours outside of Toronto.

And so I got my undergrad in social work, and then I got a minor in psychology, and then I did my master's and graduated with my master's of social work in 2012. So coming up to, yeah, nine, almost 10 years, working as a social worker. But while I was in school, I was also working in, it was like a residential group home for young men in foster care

that also had mental health issues. So that was kind of my first, I guess, paid job as a social worker or in that kind of community service space. That was very, it was super challenging. That was a really hard job looking back on it now. But yeah, about nine years, about 10 years working in the space. Yeah. And did you know much about social work before you started studying? I knew, yeah, I knew a little bit about social work. I think what attracted me to study social work in uni was that I felt like if I studied social work, I wasn't going to get pigeonholed into any specific type of job. And when I was in uni, I very much didn't know exactly what I wanted to do. And talking to people,

I had a family friend that ran a community service and speaking with her, like social work seemed like it was a good thing to study if you wanted potentially a lot of variety in the work that you were doing or if you weren't exactly sure what you wanted to do when you finished uni. I knew that I wanted to do some kind of helping profession. I was debating if it was teaching or psychology. And I kind of landed on social work, I think, because it provided with that a large degree of variety. Like you can study social work and you can work in mental health or you can work with the elderly or you can work with, you know, youth at risk. There's so many different elements of social work. So for me, I like the fact that I could have that variety. Yeah. And I can imagine

the experience while you were studying of having that care work with the people with mental health issues would have been incredibly valuable but also would have given you an idea of the type of work that you wanted to go into as a professional. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And the amount of kind of soft skills that you learn in a job like that where you're problem solving on the spot with people or you're trying to de-escalate, it's, yeah, there was some pretty full-on situations in a group home and you have to really think on the spot. And that was kind of, I think that's where for me, I learned a lot of those skills was kind of being thrown in that job where I was working part-time. Yeah. I think the disability space is particularly fascinating. I'm, you know, I work in disability as well,

but I love the fact that it provides such a diverse range of people. So you probably would have had people with intellectual disabilities coming into the mental health space, bringing all sorts of different services and supports into that and trying to find where they connect. And that intersectionality is particularly interesting because the services don't talk to each other. Did you find that the system in Canada was much different when you came to Australia? Was it hard to adapt? Yeah. So that was kind of a big, it was an adjustment for sure. When I came over here, the first role that I worked in was as a case manager. So I was working with an NGO, called AnguCare at the time.

I ended up working with them for about four years. And this was kind of pre-NDIS. So I was in a program where I was case managing 10 to 12. It was adults, so 16 and up, with fairly complex mental health problems. So we were looking at most of the clients either had like a severe depression or schizophrenia and bipolar. And in that role, I was responsible for essentially linking them in with various services to support them, but also providing them with at times practical support with things like DSP applications or

NDIS applications when we were doing the rollout into that program. In addition to some more therapeutic support, whether it be psychoeducation or goal setting and supporting them through kind of more brief intervention type work. So that job was great because it was very holistic and it taught me a lot about the systems here and where some of the differences might. be. My experience within the mental health space in Canada was that it was very, very similar to here. It was just learning the different, for example, how CenterLink works here compared to how that would traditionally operate in Canada, what you need to qualify for the different payments was relatively the same, but sometimes the pathways were a little bit different. So just understanding

those systems and how it worked. I didn't have a whole lot of experience with that in Canada because I did move to Australia about a year after I graduated with my master's. So I probably have a much more thorough understanding of actually how it works here than it doesn't get it. Yeah, lovely. And what then led you to the work you were doing after that? It was still sort of mental health, but it was in a different form. Yeah, so I worked working in that case manager capacity. That was about two years.

And when we transitioned to the NDIS, a lot of those participants I was working with, supported them with actually getting NDIS funding and getting applications in. And then I began providing therapeutic support under the NDIS. So kind of stepping away from the more case management into more of the direct clinical work with those very same participants on the more complex end of mental health, providing them with therapeutic support, but also acting as a team leader with that NGO and in supporting some of the other case managers that were doing that more hands-on support. So my experience in that role was that I could see the need, especially when you're looking on the more severe end of mental health, or, you know, that traditional clinical setting isn't necessarily always conducive for people that may be on the NDIS as well. I found that it was much more effective to meet up with participants in the community, whether it be like a park that's close to their house or meeting them at their house and then taking them outside.

or going to a quiet cafe or a space where they felt comfortable and they felt a little bit more relaxed. So that was something that I learned in that role within the NDIS. And soon after that, I actually started working with a mental health charity called Waves of Wellness. And they deliver surf therapy programs across Australia. So I was a program manager there for about four years. and my job there was supporting a team of allied health professionals across the country and facilitating group therapy programs that incorporated, they were six or eight-week programs, they incorporated a psychoeducation-based weekly discussion topic on the sand and paired that

with a surfing lesson. So in that role, it was really all about, yeah, supporting other clinicians to facilitate effective groups that provided mental health education, but also provided that safe space for participants to come down and share while also getting some physical activity and having some fun and going surfing. So that was a really fun and very, yeah, innovative take on mental health. It reminds me of a program that ran when I worked in the community. It was, it's still running, but I don't think it's in Sydney anymore. It was called on the same wave and similar principle, but different client groups. So it aimed to reduce beach fatalities and incidents among migrant and refugee population. So it taught beach and water safety and helped people with confidence

just getting out there and being in that environment. A lot of those people will have had mental illness and those sorts of backgrounds as well. So I can imagine that would have been incredibly helpful for them to be part of that program as well. Was it difficult to manage the risk versus reward in that sort of environment? Because I imagine the implications from an insurance perspective would have been a little bit greater. Yeah, for sure. And Waves of Wellness was great. We built so many safety protocols all around ensuring that the support we're providing was actually a very high clinical level. And all of the facilitators were trained in either social work, psychology, occupational therapy, or mental health nursing, but we're also certified surf instructors. So they've

gone through all of the same training that you'd get at your kind of everyday surf school. And we had all those insurances and risk assessments and safety plans and all of that kind of stuff sorted. So definitely, you know, there were additional safety considerations that you wouldn't get inside a traditional consulting room, but it was the benefit well outweighed the risk. And I guess seeing the change in participants through that program over eight weeks was something that was really, really encouraging. So yeah, waves of wellness. Over the time I had been there, we grew from running programs in Sydney to now I think we got it up to six or seven different locations across the country and I believe they're going to be running programs in Perth later on.

So they've really grown and it was really exciting role to be a part of that and help with the training and I guess instilling and understanding the elements that make a successful group, you know, really teasing out the elements that make a facilitator. And it's a lot. Like group facilitation is you have to think on your feet. You have to be flexible, but you have to set boundaries at the same time. You have to know how to genuinely validate someone's experience, but also make that experience then relatable to the 10 people in the group. And sometimes you might need to contain people if you have people that are potentially, you know, going over traumatic experience or potentially oversharing, being able to have some containment, but do that

in a supportive ways, definitely a skill. Part of that role would have been, I imagine, grant writing and applications for funding. I'm curious where the funding came from with that program. Within that role, Waveswell was a registered mental health charity. So we had donations. We also had a number of different grants that made up the majority of our funded programs.

So we had funding from the Department of Health, funding from other health charities like the Movember Foundation. We had a men's health program. So grant funding was a big, big part of that. So learning how to write effective grants and really advocate and be able to communicate the impacts of the programs, really helped with that. But also having participant testimonials. And just really, I think half the battle is understanding what grants are most suited to your

organization. So, you know, if there's other social workers out there listening, just spending a really good amount of time weeding out the inappropriate grants and really focusing your time and energy on those one or two that you feel you really meet the criteria well for. Because I imagine there would be grants available, but the ethos of the company might not necessarily match with your organization. So you want to be seen as affiliating with an appropriate organization. That's right. Yeah, grant writing was a big part of that role as well. Was there NDIS support as well with individuals who were taking part in the program?

Did they get, I'm just wondering in terms of maybe social integration, that sort of thing? Yeah, so while I was there, I lodged an application for us to become an NDIS registered provider, and that was all approved. So we provided NDIS specific programming that was really quite great because, I mean, you're getting kind of a two for one where participants were accessing therapeutic support, but also getting community engagement as well as physical activity kind of in one program. So yeah, NDIS was a part of that. As you said, that then gave you really great experience to, I guess, make waves in an organization that was up and running and develop it. to a point where now it's going to be running in Perth, which I think is incredible, and hopefully it continues to grow. But what then prompted your stepping out of that zone into your private practice? Yeah. So towards the end of my time with that role, I was finding, I think naturally as an

organization grows when you're in a position like that, it became less and less the kind of direct clinical work and more of the administration-based work. And I found that it made me really reflect on of what I value in my career and what was important to me at that point in time. And I felt this need to kind of want to do more of the direct client work. And then that made me kind of reassess my options. And I thought, well, you know, I've had a great diverse range of experience. And I would really enjoy doing my own private work. And that's when I started clarity therapy.

And I was also working at Headspace as what's called the psychological support service clinician. So I was working there with young people that were accessing headspace services that also were at a bit of increased risk of suicide or had suicidal ideation. So I've been doing that role part-time and then my private practice part-time and now just transitioning full-time into private practice. Wow. And it's an interesting time to be doing that while you've got COVID. You've got a lot of changes. People are uncertain about so much. How do you find that's impacting the work that you're doing?

Yeah, there's, I think it's pretty well known that the demand for mental health services has gone way up since the pandemic started. Working my caselo, obviously the headspace caseload is all young people, 12 to 25. In my private practice, I'm seeing majority, probably we're looking at ages 16 to 35, so adolescents, young adults. And I can speak to the demand because pretty soon after. starting up, I was getting a lot of calls, becoming very busy. So there's definitely the demand in the community. In terms of presentations at Headspace, because I am seeing a little bit more of the at-risk young people, obviously the suicidal ideation and that kind of stuff, those kind of presentations are pretty consistent. I have been seeing quite a bit of young people with

OCD as well, particularly around hygiene, which you can understand I had a young person. I have a young person I saw just last week who I'm supporting him in cutting down on hand washing. And he's developed a compulsion around, you know, this feeling like his hands are always dirty. But he's also everywhere he goes, there's signs reinforcing the fact that he should be washing his hands. Yeah. And he recently found out he was actually close contact. So the environment of COVID and the pandemic and the messaging around making sure that we're being hygienic and clean and washing our hands. mixing that with someone that already has kind of a compulsion around hygiene can be really hard

for them to, yeah, to deal with that. So that's something I've noticed and I thought it was quite interesting. Just, yeah, the role that obviously public health messaging around keeping your hands clean and that can kind of impact someone with OCD. So that's been interesting. But then you also have, you know, anxiety. I think social connection is probably the biggest thing. Young people haven't been at school.

So they're not engaging with their friends. like they normally would be. And then adapting to telehealth. You know, there's some people that have dropped out of uni because they said, look, they just couldn't keep up with telehealth. So that's a big change. And then adapting back and forth, you know, getting used to telehealth and then going back to face to face.

And if you're someone that has social anxiety, maybe spending more time at home has been kind of good for you in a way because they haven't had to face those fears of being in those public or social situations. and then now all of a sudden it's kind of thrown back into that. So supporting them with the skills to manage that has been a big part of what I've been doing. Because it's so difficult even if you don't have a mental health condition. I've noticed some anxiety,

even just getting back into social integration. And there is going to normally be that fear, I think, of getting back into regular life or whatever that might look like. But also I found the impact of social media messaging has been quite confronting and even I, you know, check the numbers every day and what's happening here and listen to the news bulletins. So it can get a bit overwhelming and, yeah, getting bombarded with those messages constantly. I can see how, yeah, it can just take over, I imagine.

Overwhelming, yeah. Yeah. For sure. What support do you need then? Because you've gone from a large organization that had a lot of different professionals, different disciplines. You probably had an opportunity to influence, formally debrief with people within that larger organization and now you're in a position where you're working solo, you're not working together with other people in a practice. How do you support yourself within that? Yeah, good question. So I think for me the biggest thing is, first of all, for myself, establishing boundaries around how I work and making sure that I'm very aware of kind of the time that I'm putting into work and that I'm also scheduling time where I have time away for work.

and I don't get, you know, email reminders to my phone so that when it's the weekend, I can actually enjoy my weekend and kind of recharge those batteries. So first and foremost, I think boundaries from me around my work is kind of where that starts. And then after that, in terms of connecting with other coworkers and opportunities to debrief, making sure that, you know, I have monthly clinical supervision with my supervisor, but also connecting with other clinicians in private practice, whether it's psychologists or clinical social workers, but I have a few people in the area that are also in private practice. So being able to connect with them and have them as a bit of like an informal support as well,

kind of that feeling like we're, you know, we're on the same team. Like they very much get what it's like to be out on their own and doing their own thing. And the great excitement that comes with that, but also sometimes the challenges that come with being on your own and not having the weight of a big organization behind you. Yeah. So that's been really. helpful for me. Were there any challenges that you can think of even going back to the waves of wellness program challenges working in that space as well as challenges working by yourself? I think biggest challenges for me and I'm looking at this from very much like a social work lens just being mindful of your audience but when we study social work and I'm sure psychology is the same I've had zero classes on

business development or no classes on managing teams, you know, leadership. I think that those areas coming out of uni, that kind of stuff, you just really learn on the job, you learn as you go. So with waves of wellness and even working with Anglicare before that, I had a good opportunity to understand a little bit more of the business side of community organizations, understanding a little bit more about funding, how that works, but also had an opportunity to do some leadership courses with Westpac and learned a lot about supporting other allied health professionals,

supporting other clinicians, how to be an effective leader. And a lot of the same principles that we apply with clients apply when we're supervising teams around, you know, setting boundaries and setting expectations and holding people to that, but doing it in a supportive way and creating a positive team culture. You know, all of those things were things that I felt that I just had to learn on the fly. And unfortunately, university didn't really prepare me very well for those things. So I'd say those were a few big challenges.

I think funding is always a challenge. You know, responding to where funds are going with government funding or grant funding is always something that's going to be challenging in any kind of NGO situation or even government situations, it's not always guaranteed where funding some come from. Yeah. So that's kind of just, I think that's the nature of the beast if you're going to be in community services. But other than that, I would say those are probably the big three.

Yeah. Funding, preparing for like actually running a business and leadership and training. Mm-hmm. What would you say you love most about the work that you've been doing or currently do? I really like working for myself. I like the flexibility it provides. I find that it gives me a really big sense of pride in being connected to the service that I'm providing. And what I wanted to create was a practice where people could feel like it wasn't very medical,

where it was, you know, I wanted to get an office space that I could decorate nicely and have people wanting to go there and feel like, this is a really nice and cool space. Part of what I'm doing with clarity therapy is also holding appointments outside and getting, to a local park or the national park and getting into green spaces or meeting clients by the beach because we know that outdoors is getting outside is really good for your mental health. So that's something that I've really enjoyed incorporating in the work that I'm doing with people. Yeah. But also when you are in private practice, you need to set up boundaries similar to how you would

in a big organization in terms of confidentiality and consent and all that kind of stuff. but I really also enjoy less of the red tape that you get with a big organization. Yeah, you've got a bit more flexibility. Yeah, that's right. Lovely. And you can respond to needs a lot easier as well. True, yeah. If people were interested in knowing more about this type of work

or even about the approaches that inform your work, where would you send them? I'm thinking what stands out when you're talking, I'm hearing ACT, I'm hearing CBT, solution focused work, individual therapy, group work. There's a lot in there, but where would you recommend people start? In terms of approaches, for sure, like CBT Act, DDT skills, I do a little bit of schema work with people as well. I'm a very practical person. So with clarity therapy, when thinking about, you know, slogans, stuff like that, I just thought about, what is my approach?

What do I bring that's made a little bit different? And I landed on like therapy that's down to earth because the way that I try to explain things to people, I try and obviously it's informed by research and the evidence-based interventions that we know work. But I try and explain it very simplistically and practically so that people kind of have that applied knowledge. And that's just kind of what works for me and what I find helpful. So what I found helpful when doing some of these, like if we use act for example, example, reading even Russ Harris has a book called The Happiness Trap that I suggest to a lot of clients, but I've read it myself. And I found that just there's a large level of application in that. So if we're thinking about act, you know, a core principle of is diffusion. So understanding at a very

basic level that thoughts are not reality, thoughts are just thoughts. And rather than if we have this underlying internal dialogue that let's say I'm what's a frequent one we get I'm not good enough a lot of people have this thought throughout their day and then they if we're thinking that then we naturally see things that reinforce that thought instagram comes to mind yeah that's right you open your phone and you get all these reminders around well other people's lives are amazing and you do a bit of compare and despair but fusing those thoughts so fusing that belief how we feel with our thoughts is not that helpful, right? So just being able to simply start people off by saying, you know, next time you experience that thought that I'm not good enough, just add I'm having the thought that I'm not

good enough. And by making that very small change, it starts to change the way we think, the way we feel, and the way we behave. So I think that with act like that as an example is something that I thought was very practical and really helpful and supporting clients with diffusion in that way was really good. But even, like, I think getting resources online, psychology toolkit has a lot of good, like, diagrams that explain these concept using photos for more kind of visual people.

I also would suggest there's research. It's called The Great Psychotherapy Debate, and it's all about what makes psychological therapy effective. And I thought that that is a publication. I think it was around, yeah, 2015. I came across this through some training with headspace, but it showed that average therapy is good therapy, essentially. So 70 to 80% of people that kind of see a psychologist, clinical social worker, will improve. So that's great. But us as therapists have a really

hard time rating if we feel that our approaches are effective. So the great psychotherapy debate stresses the importance of getting ongoing feedback from clients that you're working with, but not just asking for that feedback, but really explaining why feedback's important, providing different ways for them to give feedback. One might be in session, another might be a session rating scale. Explain to them that clients who give ongoing feedback, so the stats are that clients that give ongoing feedback and have the opportunity to do that. have a 50% lower chance of dropping out of therapy. So that was pretty significant.

And clients that gave regular feedback had a 65% chance of greater improvement than if they didn't get feedback. Yeah, that's substantial. Which is also pretty extreme, right? So that, when I read that, I was like, wow, that was to me really eye-opening around really hammering home, not just asking for feedback, but explaining why it's important, how it contributes to the therapeutic alliance, which we know is more important than any specific intervention that you're using. So that for me is kind of quite interesting,

and I would encourage other people to, yeah, check that out. Yeah, such a simple tool, really. Totally, totally. And within that as well, they were looking at, I can't remember exactly where the different items fell, but the therapeutic alliance and liaising on goals and unconditional positive regard were like the three biggest predictors of positive therapeutic outcomes. But yet often they were not as heavily studied as the interventions used. And the interventions used were rated at it was like seven or eight down the list of predictors of positive therapeutic outcomes. Yeah.

So for me, that was really quite eye-opening and like, yeah, you really want to spend a lot of time making sure, and I tell this with people the first session we have, I said, this session is totally conditional upon you feeling comfortable with me. So I'm going to explain a little bit about myself and the experience that I bring, and I'd like to get to know you as well, and what's pushed you to reach out for some support. But the most important decision is going to be for you to decide if you think I'm the right fit. And if you think I'm not, that's totally okay. You can let me know. and really creating that space for them to feel comfortable to say it. You know what?

Maybe we're not at the right fit. Yeah. Makes so much sense. Yeah. I love what you've shared in terms of setting boundaries, especially in a private practice context around your work and being able to connect with others, even though you're working solo,

and the pride in connecting to the service that you're providing. So that's really coming through and what you're saying. but in going back to your desire to not be pigeonholed, I think, has led you to some really incredible experiences along the way and providing a large degree of variety in the work that you're doing. And you've really looked outside the confines of traditional therapy environments and moving away from those clinical spaces, which research tells us that oftentimes people will feel more comfortable talking to you as a therapist if you give them the space and the opportunity

to not be so clinical. So I think that's really important. Is there anything else that you wanted to mention before we finish up about the work that you do or about what you get out of it? No, I think you've summed it up really nicely. It was a great summarization. I would just encourage, yeah, if there are kind of young social workers out there to try different things and get your hands dirty, I think social workers are definitely good at being

flexible with how we work. And I think that for me, the variety was something you're right that originally attracted me to the profession. And I have had a lot of different variety throughout my career. And it's also brought me to a new country, which is very cool. I'm very happy that social work was on the list of profession so I could get my skilled visa here. Yeah.

But no, if anyone would have more questions or would like to connect with me, I'd be happy for them to reach out to me. They can go to the clarity therapy website and connect with me. Yeah, great. I'll link that and a lot of the other resources we've talked about on the show notes so people can go down their own rabbit holes if they're interested. Awesome. I'll use one more surfing pun.

It's been a real swell time, Mark. Thank you so much for your time and the energy and just for doing the work that you do. I think it's incredible. No worries, yes. And thanks for having me. Thanks for joining me this week. If you would like to continue this discussion or ask anything of either myself or Mark, please visit my anchor page at anchor.fm.fm slash social work spotlight.

You can find me on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter, or you can email SW Spotlight Podcast at gmail.com. I'd love to hear from you. Please also let me know if there is a particular topic you'd like discussed, or if you or another person you know would like to be featured on the show. Next episode's guest is Anna, a recent social work graduate who holds a Masters in Social Work Qualifying and a Bachelor of Arts in Philosophy and Sociology.

Upon graduating social work last year, Anna began working as a graduate management consultant at KPMG Australia in their health, aging and human services sector. She is passionate about women and children's rights, reducing inequality and empowering our most vulnerable populations. I release a new episode every two weeks. Please subscribe to my podcast so you'll notify when this next episode is available. See you next time. Hi and welcome to social work spotlight where I showcase different areas of the profession each episode. I'm your host, Yasmin McKee Wright, and today's guest is Mark. Mark is a social worker from Canada who has worked in the mental health space for the last 10 years

in a range of roles including case management, clinical NDIS work, leadership roles as a team leader and program manager, and now owner of a private practice, clarity therapy. Mark's practice incorporates CBT, ACT and DBT principles mixed with some ecotherapy, and Mark works mainly with youth and young adults. Thanks so much Mark for coming on to the podcast. Really happy to have you here to have a chat about your experience and private practice that you've started. Yeah, no worries. Thanks for having me. When did you start as a social worker and what drew you to the profession?

So I started, I got my BSW in Canada. I'm actually from a place called Windsor, Ontario, about four hours outside of Toronto. And so I got my undergrad in social work, and then I got a minor in psychology. And then I did my master's and graduated with my master's of social work in 2012. So coming up to, yeah, nine, almost ten years, working as a social worker. But while I was in school, I was also working in, it was like a residential group home for young men in foster care. that also had mental health issues. So that was kind of my first, I guess, paid job as a social worker or in that kind of community service space. That was very super challenging. That was a really

hard job looking back on it now. But yeah, about nine years, about 10 years working in the space. Yeah. And did you know much about social work before you started studying? I knew, yeah, I knew a little bit about social work. I think what attracted me to study social work in uni was that I felt like if I studied social work, I wasn't going to get pigeonholed into any specific type of job. And when I was in uni, I very much didn't know exactly what I wanted to do. And talking to people, I had a family friend that ran a community service and speaking with her, like social work seemed like it was a good thing to study if you wanted potentially a lot of variety in the work that you were doing or if you weren't exactly sure what you wanted to do

when you finish uni. I knew that I wanted to do some kind of helping profession. I was debating if it was teaching or psychology. And I kind of landed on social work, I think, because it provided with that a large degree of variety. Like you can study social work and you can work in mental health or you can work with the elderly or you can work with, you know, youth at risk. There's so many different elements of social work. So for me, I like the fact that I could have that variety. Yeah, and I can imagine the experience while you were studying of having that care work with the people with mental health issues would have been incredibly valuable, but also would have given you an idea of the type of work that you wanted to go into as a professional.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And the amount of kind of soft skills that you learn in a job like that where you're problem solving on the spot with people or you're trying to de-escalate, it's, yeah, there was some pretty full-on situations in a group home and you have to really think on the spot. And that was kind of, I think that's where for me I learned a lot of those skills was kind of being thrown in that job where I was working part-time. Yeah. I think the disability space is particularly fascinating. I'm, you know, I work in disability as well, but I love the fact that it provides such a diverse range of people. So you probably would have had people with intellectual disabilities coming

into the mental health space, bringing all sorts of different services and supports into that and trying to find where they connect. And that intersectionality is particularly interesting because the services don't talk to each other. Did you find that the system in Canada was much different when you came to Australia? Was it hard to adapt? Yeah. So that was kind of a big, it was an adjustment for sure. When I came over here, the first role that I worked in was, as a case manager. So I was working with an NGO called Anglicare at the time. I ended up working with them for about four years.

And this was kind of pre-NDIS. So I was in a program where I was case managing 10 to 12. It was adults, so it was 16 and up, with fairly complex mental health problems. So we were looking at most of the clients either had like a severe depression or schizophrenia and bipolar. And in that role, I was responsible for essentially linking them, in with various services to support them, but also providing them with at times practical support

with things like DSP applications or NDIS applications when we were doing the rollout into that program. In addition to some more therapeutic support, whether it be psychoeducation or goal setting and supporting them through kind of more brief intervention type work. So that job was great because it was very holistic and it taught me a lot about the systems. He and where some of the differences might be. My experience within the mental health space in Canada was that it was very, very similar to here. It was just learning the different, for example,

how CenterLink works here compared to how that would traditionally operate in Canada, what you need to qualify for the different payments was relatively the same, but sometimes the pathways were a little bit different. So just understanding those systems and how it worked. I didn't have a whole lot of experience with, that in Canada because I did move to Australia about a year after I graduated with my master's. So I probably have a much more thorough understanding of actually how it works here than it doesn't Canada. Yeah, lovely. And what then led you to the work you were doing after that? It was still

sort of mental health, but it was in a different form. Yeah, so I worked working in that case manager capacity. That was about two years. And when we transitioned to the NDIS, a lot of those participants I was working with, supported them with actually getting NDIS funding and getting applications in. And then I began providing therapeutic support under the NDIS. So kind of stepping away from the more case management into more the direct clinical work with those very same participants on the more complex end of mental health, providing them with therapeutic support, but also acting as a team leader with that NGO and supporting some of the other case managers that were doing that more hands-on support.

So my experience in that role was that I could see the need, especially when you're looking on the more severe end of mental health, or that traditional clinical setting isn't necessarily always conducive for people that may be on the NDIS as well. I found that it was much more effective to meet up with participants in the community, whether it be like a park that's close to their house or meeting them at their house. house and then taking them outside or going to a quiet cafe or a space where they felt comfortable and they felt a little bit more relaxed. So that was something that I learned in that role within the

NDIS. And soon after that, I actually started working with a mental health charity called Waves of Wellness and they deliver surf therapy programs across Australia. So I was a program manager there for about four years. And my job there was supporting a team. of allied health professionals across the country and facilitating group therapy programs that incorporated they were six or eight-week programs they incorporated a psycho education based weekly discussion topic on the sand and paired that with a surfing lesson so in that role it was really all about yeah supporting other clinicians to facilitate effective groups that provided mental health education but also provided that safe space for participants to come down and share while also getting some

physical activity and having some fun and going surfing. So that was a really fun and very, yeah, innovative take on mental health. It reminds me of a program that ran when I worked in the community. It was, it's still running, but I don't think it's in Sydney anymore. It was called on the same wave and similar principle, but different client groups. So it aimed to reduce beach fatalities and incidents among migrant and refugee populations. So it taught beach and water safety. and helped people with confidence, just getting out there and being in that environment. A lot of those people will have had mental illness and those sorts of backgrounds as well. So I can imagine that would have been incredibly helpful for them to be part of that program as well.

Was it difficult to manage the risk versus reward in that sort of environment? Because I imagine the implications from an insurance perspective would have been a little bit greater. Yeah, for sure. And Waves of Wellness was great. We built so many safety protocols all around ensuring that the support we're providing was actually a very high clinical level. And all of the facilitators were trained in either social work, psychology, occupational therapy, or mental health nursing. But we're also certified surf instructors. So they've gone through all of the same training that you'd get at your kind of everyday surf school.

And we had all those insurances and risk assessments and safety plans and all of the that kind of stuff sorted. So definitely, you know, there were additional safety considerations that you wouldn't get inside a traditional consulting room, but it was the benefit well outweighed the risk. And the, I guess, seeing the change in participants through that program over eight weeks was something that was really, really encouraging. So yeah, waves of wellness. Over the time I had been there, we grew from running programs in Sydney to now I think we got it up to six or seven different locations across the country, and I believe they're going to be running programs in Perth later on. So they've really grown, and it was really exciting role to be a part of

that and help with the training and I guess instilling and understanding the elements that make a successful group, you know, really teasing out the elements that make a facilitator. And it's a lot. Like group facilitation is you have to think on your feet, you have to be flexible, but you have to set boundaries at the same time. You have to know how to genuinely validate someone's experience, but also make that experience then relatable to the 10 people in the group. And sometimes you might need to contain people if you have people that are potentially, you know, going over traumatic experience or potentially oversharing, being able to have some containment, but do that in a supportive way is definitely a skill.

Part of that role would have been, I imagine, grant writing and applications for funding. I'm curious where the funding came from with that program. Within that role, Waveswell was a registered mental health charity. So we had donations. We also had a number of different grants that made up the majority of our funded programs. So we had funding from the Department of Health, funding from other health charities like the Movember Foundation. We had a men's health program. So grant funding was a big, big part of that.

So learning how to write effective grants and really advocate and be able to communicate the impacts of the programs, really helped with that. But also having participant testimonials. And just really, I think half the battle is understanding what grants are most suited to your organization. So, you know, if there's other social workers out there listening, just spending a really good amount of time, weeding out the inappropriate grants and really focusing your time and energy on those one or two that you feel you really meet the criteria well for. Because I imagine there would be grants available, but the ethos of the company might not necessarily match with your organization. So you want to be seen as affiliating with an appropriate

organization. That's right. Yeah, grant writing was a big part of that role as well. Was there NDIS support as well with individuals who were taking part in the program? Did they get I'm just wondering in terms of maybe social integration, that sort of funding. Yeah, so while I was there, I lodged an application for us to become an NDIS registered provider, and that was all approved. So we provided NDIS specific programming that was really quite great, because, I mean, you're getting kind of a two-for-one where participants were accessing therapeutic support, but also getting community engagement as well as physical activity kind of in one program.

So, yeah, NDIS was a part of that. As you said, that then gave you really great experience to, I guess, make waves in an organization that was up and running and develop it to a point where now it's going to be running in Perth, which I think is incredible. And hopefully it continues to grow. But what then prompted your stepping out of that zone into your private practice? Yeah. So towards the end of my time with that role, I was finding, I think naturally as an organization grows when you're in a position, like that, it became less and less the kind of direct clinical work and more of the administration based work. And I found that it made me really reflect on kind of what I value in my career and

what was important to me at that point in time. And I felt this need to kind of want to do more of the direct client work. And then that made me kind of reassess my options. And I thought, well, you know, I've had a great diverse range of experience. And I would really enjoy doing my own private work and that's when I started clarity therapy and I was also working at headspace as what's called the psychological support service clinician. So I was working there with young people that were accessing headspace services that also were at a bit of increased risk of suicide or had suicidal ideation. So I've been doing that role part time and then my private practice part time and now just transitioning full time into private practice.

Wow. And it's an interesting time. to be doing that while you've got COVID, you've got a lot of changes, people are uncertain about so much. How do you find that's impacting the work that you're doing? Yeah, there's, I think it's pretty well known that the demand for mental health services has gone way up since the pandemic started. Working my case, obviously the headspace caseload is all young people, 12 to 25. In my private practice. I'm seeing majority, probably we're looking at ages 16 to 35, so adolescents, young adults. And I can speak to the demand because pretty soon after starting up, I was getting a lot of calls, becoming very busy. So there's definitely the demand in the

community. In terms of presentations at Headspace, because I am seeing a little bit more of the at-risk young people, obviously the suicidal ideation and that kind of stuff, those kind of presentations are pretty consistent. I have been seeing quite a bit of young people with OCD as well, particularly around hygiene, which you can understand. I had a young person I saw just last week who I'm supporting him in cutting down on hand washing, and he's developed a compulsion around, you know, this feeling like his hands are always dirty, but he's also, everywhere he goes, there's signs reinforcing the fact that he should be washing his hands. Yeah.

And he recently found out he was actually close contact. So the environment of COVID and the pandemic and the messaging around making sure that we're being hygienic and clean and washing our hands, mixing that with someone that already has kind of a compulsion around hygiene can be really hard for them to, yeah, to deal with that. So that's something I've noticed and I thought it was quite interesting. Just yeah, the role that obviously public health messaging around keeping your hands clean and that can kind of impact someone with OCD. So that's been interesting. But then you also have, you know, anxiety. I think social connection is probably the biggest thing. Young people haven't been at school.

So they're not engaging with their friends like they normally would be. And then adapting to telehealth, you know, there's some people that have dropped out of uni because they said, look, they just couldn't keep up with telehealth. it's a big change and then adapting back and forth, you know, getting used to telehealth and then going back to face to face. And if you're someone that has social anxiety, maybe spending more time at home has been kind of good for you in a way because they haven't had to face those fears of being in those public or social situations. And then now all of a sudden it's kind of thrown back into that.

So supporting them with the skills to manage that has been a big part of what I've been doing. because it's so difficult even if you don't have a mental health condition. I've noticed some anxiety, even just getting back into social integration. And there is going to normally be that fear, I think, of getting back into regular life or whatever that might look like. But also I found the impact of social media messaging has been quite confronting. And even I, you know, check the numbers every day and what's happening here and listen to the news bulletins. So it can get a bit overwhelming and, yeah, getting bombarded with those messages constantly. I can see how it, yeah, it can just take over, I imagine.

Overwhelming, yeah. Yeah. For sure. What support do you need then? Because you've gone from a large organization that had a lot of different professionals, different disciplines. You probably had an opportunity to informally debrief with people within that larger organization. And now you're in a position where you're working solo.

You're not working together. with other people in a practice, how do you support yourself within that? Yeah, good question. So I think for me, the biggest thing is, first of all, for myself, establishing boundaries around how I work and making sure that I'm very aware of kind of the time that I'm putting into work and that I'm also scheduling time where I have time away from work. And I don't get, you know, email reminders to my phone so that when it's the weekend, I can actually enjoy my weekend and kind of recharge those batteries. So first and foremost, I think boundaries from me around my work is kind of where that starts. And then after that, in terms of connecting with other coworkers and opportunities to debrief,

making sure that, you know, I have monthly clinical supervision with my supervisor, but also connecting with other clinicians in private practice, whether it's psychologists or clinical social workers. But I have a few people in the area that are also in private practice. So being able to connect with them and have them as a bit of like an informal support as well, kind of that feeling like we're, you know, we're on the same team. Like they very much get what it's like to be out on their own and doing your own thing. And the great excitement that comes with that, but also sometimes the challenges that come with being on your own

and not having the weight of a big organization behind you. Yeah. So that's been really helpful for me. Were there any challenges that you can think of even going back to, the waves of wellness program challenges working in that space as well as challenges working by yourself? I think biggest challenges for me, and I'm looking at this from very much like a social work lens, just being mindful of your audience, but when we study social work and I'm sure psychology is the same, I've had zero classes on business development or no classes on managing teams, you know, leadership,

I think that those areas coming out of uni, that kind of stuff, you just really learn on the job. You learn as you go. So with waves of wellness and even working with Anglicare before that, I had a good opportunity to understand a little bit more of the business side of community organizations, understanding a little bit more about funding, how that works, but also had an opportunity to do some leadership courses with Westpac and learned a lot about supporting other Ally Health professionals. professional, supporting other clinicians, how to be an effective leader. And a lot of the same principles that we apply with clients apply when we're supervising teams around, you know, setting boundaries and setting expectations and holding people to that, but doing it in a supportive way and creating a positive team culture. You know, all of those things were things that I felt that I just had to learn on the fly.

And unfortunately, university didn't really prepare me very well for those things. So I'd say those were a few big challenges. I think funding is always a challenge. You know, responding to where funds are going with government funding or grant funding is always something that's going to be challenging in any kind of NGO situation or even government situations. It's not always guaranteed where funding some come from. Yeah. So that's kind of just, I think that's the nature of the beast if you're going to be in community services. But other than that, I would say those are probably the big three. Yeah. Funding. preparing for like actually running a business and leadership and training. What would you say you love most about the work that you've been doing or currently do?

I really like working for myself. I like the flexibility it provides. I find that it gives me a really big sense of pride in being connected to the service that I'm providing. And what I wanted to create was a practice where people could feel like it wasn't very very. medical where it was, you know, I wanted to get an office space that I could decorate nicely and have people wanting to go there and feel like this is a really nice and cool space. Part of what I'm doing with clarity therapy is also holding appointments outside and getting to a local park or the national park and getting into green spaces or meeting clients by the beach because we know that outdoors is getting outside is really good for your mental health. So that's something that I've really

enjoyed incorporating in the work that I'm doing with people. Yeah. But also when you are in private practice, you need to set up boundaries similar to how you would in a big organization in terms of confidentiality and consent and all that kind of stuff. But I really also enjoy less of the red tape that you get with a big organization. Yeah. You've got a bit more flexibility. Yeah.

That's right. Lovely. And you can respond to needs a lot easier as well. True. Yeah. If people were interested in knowing more about this type of work or even about the approaches that inform your work, where would you send them? I'm thinking what stands out when you're talking, I'm hearing ACT, I'm hearing CBT,

solution-focused work, individual therapy, group work. There's a lot in there, but where would you recommend people start? In terms of approaches, for sure, like CBT Act, DDT, skills, I do a little bit of schema work with people as well. I'm a very practical person. So with clarity therapy, when thinking about, you know, slogans, stuff like that,

I just thought about, what is my approach? What do I bring? That's made a little bit different. And I landed on like therapy that's down to earth because the way that I try to explain things to people,

I try and obviously it's informed by research and the evidence-based interventions that we know work. But I try and explain it very simplistically and practice. so that people kind of have that applied knowledge. And that's just kind of what works for me and what I find helpful. So what I've found helpful when doing some of these, like if we use Act, for example,

reading even Russ Harris has a book called The Happiness Trap that I suggest to a lot of clients, but I've read it myself. And I found that just there's a large level of application in that. So if we're thinking about act, you know, a core principle of is diffusion. So understanding at a very basic level that thoughts are not reality, thoughts are just thoughts. And rather than if we have this underlying internal dialogue that let's say I'm, what's a frequent one we get? I'm not good enough. A lot of people have this thought throughout their day.

And then they, if we're thinking that, then we naturally see things that reinforce that thought. Instagram comes to mind. Yeah, that's right. You open your phone and you get all these reminders around, well, other people's lives are amazing and you do a bit of compare and despair. But fusing those thoughts, so fusing that belief, how we feel with our thoughts is not that helpful, right? So just being able to simply start people off by saying, you know, next time you experience

that thought that I'm not good enough, just add I'm having the thought that I'm not good enough. And by making that very small change, it starts to change the way we think, the way we feel, and the way we behave. So I think that with act like that as an example is something that I thought was very practical and really helpful in supporting clients with diffusion in that way was really good. But even like I think getting resources online, psychology toolkit has a lot of good like diagrams that explain these concept using photos for more kind of visual people. I also would suggest there's research. It's called the Great Psychotherapy Debate, and it's all about what makes psychological

therapy effective. And I thought that that is a publication. I think it was around, yeah, 2015. I came across this through some training with headspace, but it showed that average therapy is good therapy, essentially. So 70 to 80% of people that kind of see a psychologist, clinical social worker, will improve. So that's great. But us as therapists have a really hard time rating if we feel that our approaches are effective. So the great psychotherapy debate stresses the importance of getting ongoing feedback from clients that you're working with.

but not just asking for that feedback, but really explaining why feedback is important, providing different ways for them to give feedback. One might be in session, another might be a session rating scale. Explain to them that clients who give ongoing feedback, so the stats are that clients that give ongoing feedback and have the opportunity to do that, have a 50% lower chance of dropping out of therapy. So that was pretty significant. And clients that gave regular feedback had a 65% chance of greater improvement than if they didn't get feedback. Yeah, that's substantial. Which is also pretty extreme, right? So that, when I read that, I was like, wow, that was to me really eye-opening around really hammering home, not just asking for feedback, but explaining why it's

important, how it contributes to the therapeutic alliance, which we know is more important than any specific intervention that you're using. So that for me is kind of quite interesting, and I would encourage other people to, yeah, check that out. Yeah, such a simple tool, really. Totally, totally. And within that as well, they were looking at, I can't remember exactly what, where the different items fell, but the therapeutic alliance and liaising on goals and on unconditional positive regard were like the three biggest predictors of positive therapeutic outcomes. But yet often they were not as heavily studied as the interventions used. And the interventions used were rated at it was like seven or eight down the list of predictors of

positive therapeutic outcomes. Yeah. So for me, that was really quite eye-opening and like, yeah, you really want to spend a lot of time making sure. And I tell this with people the first session we have. I said, this session is totally conditional upon you feeling comfortable with me. So I'm going to explain a little bit about myself and the experience that I bring. And I'd like to get to know you as well and what's pushed you to reach out for some support. But the most important decision is going to be for you to decide if you think I'm the right fit.

And if you think I'm not, that's totally okay. You can let me know. And really creating that space for them to feel comfortable to say it. you know what, maybe we're not at the right fit. Yeah, makes so much sense. Yeah. I love what you've shared in terms of setting boundaries, especially in a private practice context around your work

and being able to connect with others, even though you're working solo, and the pride in connecting to the service that you're providing. So that's really coming through and what you're saying. But in going back to your desire to not be pitching, and hold, I think, has led you to some really incredible experiences along the way and providing a large degree of variety in the work that you're doing. And you've really looked outside the confines of traditional therapy environments and moving away from those clinical spaces, which

research tells us that oftentimes people will feel more comfortable talking to you as a therapist if you give them the space and the opportunity to not be so clinical. So I think that's really important. Is there anything else that you wanted to mention before we finish up about the work that you do or about what you get out of it? No, I think you've summed it up really nicely. It was a great summarization. I would just encourage, yeah, if there are kind of young social workers out there to try different things and get your hands dirty, I think social workers are definitely good at being flexible with how we work. And I think that for me, the very very important. variety was something you're right that originally attracted me to the profession and I have had a lot of

different variety throughout my career and it's also brought me to a new country which is very cool. I'm very happy that social work was on the list of profession so I could get my skilled visa here. Yeah. But no, if anyone would have more questions or would like to connect with me, I'd be happy for them to reach out to me. They can go to the clarity therapy website and connect with me. Yeah, great. I'll link that and a lot of the other resources we've talked about on the show notes that people can go down their own rabbit holes if they're interested. Awesome. I'll use one more surfing pun.

It's been a real swell time, Mark. Thank you so much for your time and the energy and just for doing the work that you do. I think it's incredible. No worries, yes, man. Thanks for having me. Thanks for joining me this week. If you would like to continue this discussion

or ask anything of either myself or Mark, please visit my anchor page at anchor.fm. slash social work spotlight. You can find me on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter, or you can email SW Spotlight Podcast at gmail.com. I'd love to hear from you. Please also let me know if there is a particular topic you'd like discussed, or if you or another person you know would like to be featured on the show. Next episode's guest is Anna, a recent social work graduate who holds a masters in social work qualifying and a Bachelor of Arts in philosophy and sociology. Upon graduating social work last year, Anna began working as a graduate management consultant at KPMG Australia in their health,

aging and human services sector. She is passionate about women and children's rights, reducing inequality and empowering our most vulnerable populations. I release a new episode every two weeks. Please subscribe to my podcast so you're notified when this next episode is available. See you next time.