Social Work Spotlight - Episode 56: Dani

Episode Date: April 29, 2022

In this episode I speak with Dani, a social worker who thrives on diversity and challenge and has as such worked in a variety of roles; including counsellor, mentor, trainer, clinical supervisor, manager, and leader. Dani has a particular interest in supporting women with ADHD and reducing the incidence of missed diagnosis, and misdiagnosis. She advocates moving away from disordered and disabling labels (insisting that ADHD needs a rebrand), and incorporates a strengths-based approach as a guiding perspective to understanding neurodivergence.Links to resources mentioned in this week’s episode:The Divergent Edge contacts:Website - www.thedivergentedge.com.auFacebook - adhdtherapeuticcoachInstagram - adhdtherapy_the.divergent.edge/LinkedIn - Company pageYouTube - #AllthethingsADHDA Radical Guide for Women with ADHD (Sari Solden & Michelle Frank) - https://www.newharbinger.com/9781684032617/a-radical-guide-for-women-with-adhd/Complex PTSD - https://www.healthdirect.gov.au/complex-ptsdThis episode's transcript can be viewed here:https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JnrxoKrU0hsxBIgr06RoOrjedz3iRfVvMaCbjND1LzI/edit?usp=sharingThanks to Kevin Macleod of incompetech.com for our theme music.

Hi and welcome to social work spotlight where I showcase different areas of the profession each episode. I'm your host, Yasmin McKee Wright, and today's guest is Danny. Danny thrives on diversity and challenge, hashtag low boredom threshold, and has as such worked in a variety of roles, including counsellor, mentor, trainer, clinical supervisor, manager and leader. She has significant expertise in clinical practice development, recruitment, leading teams, and organizational strategy. She's worked in government, health, not-for-profit, corporate and educational settings. Danny has a particular interest in supporting women with ADHD and reducing the incidence of missed diagnosis and misdiagnosis. Therapetic counseling has been developed as a cornerstone

of the business and is a holistic practice model, integrating a person-centered counseling framework with psychoeducation, practical strategies to life-hack your ADHD executive function challenges and consideration of bigger picture lifestyle factors to reduce stress. She advocates moving away from disordered and disabling labels, insisting that ADHD needs a rebrand and incorporates a strength-based approach as a guiding perspective to understanding neurodivergence. Thank you so much, Dani, for coming to coming. on to the podcast. Really, really happy to have a chat with you about your experience in social

work so far and a little bit about your work. Great. Thank you. Thanks for inviting me. Pleasure. It's exciting. Yeah, I wanted to ask firstly when you started as a social worker and what brought you to the profession. I started in 2000. So sometimes I have to do the maths in my head. I'm like, I guess it's literally over 20 years now. Yeah. And what brought me? to social work? What brings us to a funny path for me, but one that ultimately fit. I was one of those people who I want you to be a therapist when you're a teenager. So that's probably a bad idea. Nobody wants to talk to a person that young about all their things. And I did the thing

that most people do is getting to psychology 101, Bachelor of Arts, did that for a year and then had a small career crisis because it just wasn't, it wasn't a good fit, you know. It was 200 people in a room, couldn't connect with, you know, fellow students. So I did a bit of an about face and wanted something that was going to be adaptable. I wanted a career that meant when I came out a university, I could actually get a job. That was important to me. Crazy. Yes, I know how radical.

So looking at a few different options landed on, I think I was down to rehab counselling or social work. And when diving into how many choices do we get, social work was the most flexible and the most diverse because who really knows what you want to do when you're going to grow up. I know, so much pressure. Oh, so much pressure. That's another conversation, really. Make big life decisions, age 17 or 18.

But it was a good fit. It was a nice fit of relatable, meaningful content. It tipped the passion box, but it really gave a lot of scope, which I really liked. And I've utilised a lot in my career, the scope for how many different things can we do. Yeah, perfect. Yeah, absolutely. And you've had quite a varied amount of experience in. in different places, what has led to this point in your career where you are now?

Oh, so many things. I guess the short version is getting to a point where I felt like I was probably a bit of a painful employee and it was maybe time to step out on my own. Right. Found myself, I guess it was the end of the career before I launched the business, bouncing through a number of really high-level jobs quite quickly. and feeling like just because you can get the job and now the interview doesn't necessarily mean it's a good fit for you and trying to find a role that had enough diversity in it

because I get bored pretty easily. So if you have to be doing the same thing all day, every day, I'm not going to cope very well. So I guess through a number of different experiences in management roles, state-based leadership roles and therapeutic roles, I kind of decided to roll them all in together and start a business where I could do all the things. When you say high level, as you said, those are management leadership roles, which my understanding is they kind of require you to be sort of like a specialist in one area or another. So if you're looking for diversity, it's really difficult to find if you're at that high level. So, I mean, it's definitely something you want to strive for. You think I have

experience, I want to go for this high-level job, but really difficult if that's what you're looking for. So I guess the suggestion would be then try to find something you're passionate about even if it's not the highest-paying thing because, I mean, we all know we didn't get into social work for the money. We didn't. We didn't, but sometimes life takes you to a place where you need it or you're looking for that satisfaction and you're looking for a role that's meaningful, but then you can kind of have a voice at a higher level, I guess. So for me, leadership roles, which I did for a big chunk in the middle of my career, was about being able to connect to a team and build a team of,

I like the definition of leadership of, you know, a group of people who are all facing in the same direction. You know, moving towards a common goal was sort of aligned in the vision and in the passion. Yeah. So I had some really great experiences early on in a small NGO. that grew, I was there for 12 years. And when I started, there were eight people. And when I left, there was 60. And being able to be part of that process.

And growth, yeah, and sort of become part of the furniture, but also the opportunity to kind of develop new programs and lead change in the sector. At that time was in case management, complex case management and age and disability services. it was an opportunity to create more effective services for our clients. It wasn't about being in charge of all things. It was just about that next level to advocate to funding bodies and to government about

what works, you know, what we'd learnt that it worked. And I guess I found that sometimes then later in my career stepping back into some roles in really big NGOs, that was a very different experience than being kind of grassroots. So I think that was an interesting learning experience in trying to leverage change. Sure. Yeah, yeah. It sounds like working in that small organisation, there's quite a lot of opportunity to leave a legacy and to leave that mark on an organisation for the better.

Can you give an example of a type of project or a policy that perhaps was changed while you're there? I think one of the things that stayed with me the most was it was in the days pre-NDIS, pre-age care sector, you know, gateways and all of the federal changes when aged and disability services was home and community care. And I was fortunate to come into that sector at a time where case management was really valued as not an expensive service that we didn't need, but a service that, actually allowed us to be person-centered in our approach to working with clients and create meaningful outcomes that meant people increase their quality of life. So at that time, having the opportunity to participate in, you know, statewide conferences and talk about alterations to the

way projects operated, anybody who's been around for as long as I have, might have heard of the Community Options Program, which was fundamental in its time. And it actually created a model that was duplicated across the community sector in case management. And I was lucky enough to be a part of that at the time and got to run pilots like the first compacts pilot in New South Wales, which was that exact model would develop in community options in a six-week intensive block. So being able to lead the pilot and then the roll out of that in northern Sydney that went statewide was, it was satisfying because we were proving that it worked and it reduced readmission and we could connect people to services. So I was really

proud of that time. Leaving a legacy sometimes then, you know, major reform means that things change. And I'm not sure that some of the meaning and some of the effectiveness that was created back then is still around now. Right. You know. I'm in place. I was lucky. Different priorities. That's right. Yeah. So many changes with funding as the years progressed as well. Did you find teaching at TAFE gave you an opportunity to foster that passion within a younger generation of people wanting to study this sort of work as well? Yeah, I did actually. It was interesting teaching at TAFE, you know, kind of throwing myself into a training role with students from like 16 to in their 60s.

it was really interesting to be able to have a lot of practical real-life examples of what worked rather than it just being theory. So I think that was the thing, that was a, I guess, a point of difference of training in that time that was, yeah, I think it was a great way to kind of round out that part of my career. Yeah. Moving and, you know, the improv skills that you need to develop as a trainer. Yeah. It's like if I ever do get to be a stand-up comedian, you know, you know, that guy.

You go, oh, everyone they could do that is like the training part meant that you had to kind of improvise at the time. Constantly on your feet. That's it. That's it. So, yeah, it was interesting. I don't think I'm born to be a day-in-day-out trainer. Yeah.

But it was a good experience at the time. Do you think that context would have been different if you were in a university teaching? Mm, probably. I wasn't drawn towards academia as such. I don't know whether I would have been a good fit. I did do some work with several universities kind of consulting as like external supervision, which was good because you could be the like radical on the outside, the person on the inside. Yeah.

That suited me better. Yeah. Amazing. What's your current role then? You've alluded to being your own boss. What does a typical day look like? I can't imagine there would be one. But even like today, walk me through what your normal role is like.

At the moment, I guess my official role is CEO. founder, clinical social worker, therapeutic ADHD coach, chief operating officer, head of HR, finance. You need a larger business card, I think. Yeah, you know, it's a little bit like that. Supervisor line manager, when you launch yourself into a startup, there are a lot of hats. So I'm doing a bit of all of those things every day. And it's at the point of trying to get the balance right for growth. So how much do you outsource? How much do you do yourself? So I guess I sort of split my time at the moment between client work. We offer ADHD assessment for adults. And I do a fair bit of therapeutic coaching with clients, which is a service model that I developed. It's a hybrid

counselling, practical coaching approach that supports our clients. with multi-diversion aspects really of being an adult who's lived a life not knowing they had ADHD, which is 98% of our cohort. So that's ever evolving at the moment. So it's doing that and then trying to build a quality framework for an organisation that's growing and managing and supporting the team of six. I've got six staff that work with me at the moment. So constantly responding to change.

I can imagine in whatever it is, guidelines, legislation, whatever the criteria are, every time there's a change in that, but also what works and what doesn't and how can you then kind of feel brave enough to scrap a whole bunch of stuff that previously you were working really hard on? I don't know if I've scrapped it. I think I evolve it as I'm going. And the interesting thing about the divergent edge is that we're operating nationally across Australia. So there are different, say, prescribing laws in different states and some doctors that we work with have different restrictions on them. And it's very hard to get across everything across all of the states in terms of, you know, risk management or child protection legislation,

which is different. So it's interesting. I don't get bored. And that's been my biggest problem with the high level roles, yeah. Well, the high level roles. And even if all I was doing was client work, all day for me, I'm best if I'm adapting and switching in the course of the day because that gets the best out of me. So yeah, there's always lots to do. Yeah, you mentioned quite a lot of the people that receive that diagnosis are adults. What is the typical age for diagnosis for ADHD? There is a lot of women at the moment in their 30s, 40s and 50s. They've had the experience of misdiagnosis, anxiety, depression, sometimes bipolar, sometimes borderline, personality, you know, trauma history, had all of these things and none of them have ever really quiet.

They've gone, oh, just doesn't fit. Am I anxious? Okay, maybe I'm anxious. And a lot of our clients learn that you can have ADHD as an adult and start to go, oh, that seems a little bit like me. What was that meme I saw or that Facebook post or? One of my friends just got diagnosed, which happens a lot. So they start exploring it and they're like, okay, wow, this sounds a bit like my life.

So often successful professionals who are not managing as well as they feel they should come and see us and help unpack actually what is going on that's been missed all these years. So that's pretty much our typical client. we do work with younger people from sort of late teens. I think some of our oldest clients are in their 60s at the moment through the spectrum. Couples and family work in different aspects. Yeah, so it's very satisfying work. It's very validating for our clients because it's, you know,

it can do your head in a little bit to go, this is a big part of the way my brain is wide that I never really knew. Yeah. And I know a lot of people once they receive that diagnosis, so relieved because finally they think this is me, I do fit into this category, whereas I felt like I was just an anomaly before. Absolutely. There was always just something not quite right or some sort of residual effect on self-esteem or boundary setting or just not feeling like you're as smart as everyone else, something, something there. And the biggest feedback that

get from our clients is that, thank you, that's just been so validating. It's just so validating of my experience of being in the world and that there isn't something wrong with me. Yeah. And that is, that's a huge privilege, I think, to be able to share that with that clients makes a big difference. Yeah. Are you able to briefly explain what the diagnostic criteria are?

Oh, well, I could, but I would probably critique it at the same time. That's okay. That's the social work way, right? I'm like, oh, I'm also working for change. So it's interesting. The diagnostic criteria for adults is still largely based on what's used for children. So there are some fundamental aspects of the impact of ADHD adults that are at the moment left out of the DSM5 criteria. And is that just because we're picking it up later so we don't have that experience?

It used to be in there and some bright spot took it out. So I think sometimes things like that lend itself to a lot of myths about ADHD and a lot of people, smart people, feeling like that's not going to be a fit for them. So the diagnostic criteria is a lot around executive function deficits. And to a very minor extent, challenges with emotional regulation. So that's things like frustration, tolerance or irritability or impulsivity. Executive function deficits such as, you know, trouble getting organized, trouble finishing off tasks once the interesting bit has been done.

Keeping on task and on time if you're doing something that you find boring and making simple mistakes. Keeping track of appointments and keeping, there's a lot of focus on those kind of attributes that fit clients who might have inattentive features and combined type features. Some of them all pervasive and kind of complex diagnostic criteria around restlessness and hyperactivity and how that presents in adults. So if we think about the spectrum of ADHD as it stands in Australia, there is no ADD. There is no diagnosis that is ADD. It is all ADHD with different subtypes.

So we've got ADHD predominantly. inattentive, but ADHD combined type, and then ADHD predominantly hyperactive. And is one considered more severe than the other? No. No. They're just done a range. Yes, because if you've met one person with ADHD, you could meet somebody with a very different presentation who operates completely differently and doesn't fit the stereotype.

Yeah. So that's why it's one of the really important things to understand about the difference in those presentations that as a woman in my 40s with three children running a business with hyperactive type, I'm not bouncing on the couch and unable to sit still or read a book because people think hyperactive type, small, six-year-old boy can't sit still in class. Oh, that's not me, so I can't be that. Yeah. You know, inattentive type is, you know, traditionally known as kind of, if you're looking at children,

a bit off with the pixies, you know, just quite not missing stuff and therefore getting behind in learning because just trouble focusing on the content. So so much of this is about a brain chemistry and having an interest-based brain, which means if we're interested, we're really, really interested, right? And if we're not, well, we're not really,

and it can be a little bit hard to focus and get the best out of the task or activity. Yeah. Yeah. So it looks really different depending on your presentation. Combined type is, as you would expect, a bit of both. Sometimes there's a push-pull there and a lot of internalised stress and frustration of knowing all of the things that need to get done and having an inability to enact and

execute and complete those things. So it's not necessarily a lack of motivation, but a lack of understanding of how to get to that, how to work out the steps. How to start and the way when your dopamine levels in your brain are functioning in the way that they should, initiation of tasks is really difficult. Motivation of tasks to commence a task, even if it's one you really, really need to do can be very, very challenging. So a lot of adults with ADHD have had the experience where because planning and initiation is so difficult, the only way to get things done is deadline driven. So that relies on anxiety and adrenaline and cortisol and is very, very stressful for your body when you're forced to operate under those circumstances for a long time

because the pressure is on and we need to hand it in tomorrow or meet the deadline at work. So those experiences start to kind of tick, you know, alarm bells, a bit of stuff going on for a lot of our clients when it was like, oh, I think that sounds like me. I can also see, though, why there must be such difficulty with that diagnosis, because COVID has thrown a huge banner in the works, because people are at home more, they're potentially just feeling less motivated because their whole timetable, their structure is disrupted,

they're not able to see people that they normally would that would keep them sort of on track. Yes. Yeah. And I would imagine, though, what differs between someone with a normal amount of anxiety, or difficulty to carry out tasks or finding those strategies just aren't working for them is when it really starts to interfere with activities and their goals, would you say? That's right.

There are certain kind of tipping points in terms of life transitions, life stages, life stresses that can make what might have been a subclinical presentation that you were managing quite fine, tip over into one that's causing significant impact on your life. Yeah. And I do think COVID did that for a lot of people who rely on external structures to organise a routine and organise events and coordinate. So then when those are taken away, your time and concepts of time in ADHD can be very interesting

and different for each person in terms of time blindness or executive function in terms of how long things take to do or tracking time, being aware of macro time or micro time. So you're right, without those external structures, there was a bit of a void for a lot of people. And then, you know, throw in the kids who are at home and we're supposed to be homeschooling them as well. It's hard not to be distracted.

How are we not going to be distracted? So, yes, I think that is definitely added. And I think the other thing is added is just more people being prepared to sort of come out and talk about it. Yeah. and understand that sometimes over function and hyperactivity and internalised restlessness can mean certainly for a lot of women who are in the workforce and parenting and never ever have time to stop get very overwhelmed with that you kind of hit a certain point in your life so

we talk about life stages and when it can become difficult to manage it could be the birth of your child, your first or your second or your third, like at what point does that tip over the balance of your executive function and what you need to hold or regulate for other people, let alone yourself. For some people, those life transitions, for women, it's often linked to hormonal changes. So with phases for young girls at around 12, 13, when things start to get a bit challenging, right, when they need to go to high school. And it's like, oh, good, you do it. now, the impact of... I imagine reaching menopause as well.

Absolutely. All of those things. So yeah, post birth and postnatally, really demanding perimenopause. Menopause. So that is why that 30 to 40s and 50s, you know, across that spectrum, a lot of women who were managing. And I say women and I don't mean to be stereotyped. But that is the experience, unfortunately, we're still working.

for a lot of families that are operating within traditional gendered roles and patriarchal expectations of what we must be able to manage. And if you're not managing, you must be stressed and maybe a bit depressed and he's an antidepressant tends to be the way that that is dealt with. And women are missed. Men are missed too, but to a lesser extent, more likely to be caught earlier. Yeah. What then would the differences be between the genders and

terms of how it presents. So one of the most significant differences a lot of the time is the difference between internalised factors versus externalised factors. So again, if you think about the disruptive little boy in the classroom, everybody's noticing what's going on because they can't stop talking, they're bouncing around, they can't sit still. So it's externalised, it's impacting on other people, so they're going to act, do something about it. Traditionally, for younger girls and teens, it's internalized. So all of that pressure, all of that expectation and often really high expectation is internalised. So you're not making it a problem for other people. It's all inside you. And you're actually not talking about it. Yeah. So as you go along, if you're a hyperactive, impulsive

person, males may be more likely to get into trouble. Drive cars, substance abuse problems, you know, cause a bit of chaos. Whereas women, it tends to show up in relationships or missed career goals or mental health problems or the impact of not having a firm sense of self and being able to set healthy boundaries. So ultimately, you know, very similar things are going on in terms of our brain, but the way it comes out can look very different. Yeah. And the risks associated, you know, are equally as valid, but sometimes not so obvious.

Does there tend to be a better treatment outcome from one of the types of disorder to the next? Not so much, not so much. Really, the treatments are the same because no matter how it's presenting in you, in terms of the medical interventions or the medications that might be trialled, there are a few options available for adults, and it's often a little bit of a trial and error to see which fits best for you, but it's not, it didn't tend to be prescribed based on presentation. However, there are different comorbidities or factors that are impacting on your ADHD to a greater

degree that might influence the treatment options. Sure. So, yes. So if you get it right and you get the mix right and you understand the complexities of, that the comorbidities are related, then the effectiveness should be the same. But I suppose for, you know, people who have had complexity in their lives and potentially have had early life trauma and the impacts of C-P-T-SD and then an undiagnosed ADHD and then have some significant anxiety that might lead to OCD-like tendencies, all over that we're looking

at something. There's a lot more pieces to unravel to get the treatment right than if what we're looking at is a little more kind of straightforward presentation without a lot of practice, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah. I'm just wondering you'd be more acutely aware than others, possibly around the interaction of disability and ADHD than a lot of people with a disability may develop ADHD as well, or vice versa. I'm just wondering, in those cases, it must be that much harder to achieve that or to get

to that diagnosis because so many. other things are covered up. Other factors. I think it's interesting in terms of the language, even that's used to describe differences in brain structure. So, you know, disorder, disability. A lot of us reject even the term. I just say ADHD and never say the full term because I don't feel like I'm living with a disorder. I feel like I'm living with a brain that operates a little differently. Do I feel like I have a disability? No, I don't. Some people may view it. that way. I guess to answer your question in terms of the complexities of unpacking what's going on, are you referring more to younger people with disability or health conditions that sort of become

chronic and result in disability? More health conditions and especially because if someone has had such a long period of time, let's say they've developed a mental health condition because of this series of misdiagnoses or I'm thinking a lot of the people that I support have an acquired brain injury and that affects their executive function but is there something else that we're not picking up on and it just wasn't obvious before their injury so so many things can confound I can imagine the treatment options for them yeah absolutely understanding what was their first was the precipitating factor that other issues have developed from and abi is a good example, if you live with an undiagnosed ADHD and have a tendency to be had impulsive

or risk taking, then the likelihood that you're going to end up injuring yourself is much higher. The likelihood that you're going to end up using alcohol or other drugs to self-medicate is much higher. So then the risk exponentially unfolds and living with what can be quite, you know, a significant impairment at times in your life and not knowing what it is. I guess depression, anxiety, the amount of people who felt that they are living with an anxiety disorder, that it actually turns out the anxiety is a result of untreated ADHD. And once we treat the ADHD, the anxiety goes away is fundamentally huge. It's a byproduct of feeling like you can't quite manage all the things or you're going to

miss the deadline or you're going to forget the appointment with the kid's nature or the constant vigilance. So when you fix the original issue, then the secondary ones become less of an impact. So yeah, but you're right, in terms of unpacking comorbidities or autoimmune conditions is a really good example as well because the impact of living a life of quite chronic internalised stress and the interrelations with autoimmune conditions like Hashimoto's or MS, endometriosis. You know, like there are a lot of conditions that are, obviously, it's not A plus B equals C,

but they are co-related in terms of the impact on your body. You know, stress does big things. Yeah, coming back to that cortisol that you mentioned. That's it. That's it. Yeah. Wow. So you do a lot of assessments for people around ADHD.

If someone does not fit the criteria, if you don't come up with a diagnosis for them, can they still access support from your service given that they present with issues that are similar? Or do you need to refer them on? That wouldn't be a problem for us. Ironically, it hasn't happened, I think, because we're so niche in terms of our focus, I've found to date since launching the business that by the time clients find us, they've been through a lot of other things that didn't work. Sure.

So it's easier for you to narrow it down. It's easier, yeah. So we haven't had to reject, but if we did feel that there was a service that was a better fit, and I think that's, then we would have that conversation about, you know, is this the right fit service?

Yeah. For you, we're not going to exclude. If it feels like it resonates, we're not your typical therapy kind of service. So I think there is definitely scope for clients to kind of resonate with that sort of rebellious kind of side to feel a synergy there as well. Yeah. And because you're not government funded necessarily, it means that you've got a bit more flexibility.

They don't have to have a diagnosis. No, that's right. That's right. But I imagine you also do a lot of work with people who have received a diagnosis and are either wanting to access or already accessing the NDIS. We have a small cohort of clients who are accessing the NDIS at the moment. At the moment, it's been adult women who are both autistic and ADHDs. ADHD alone does not tick the criteria.

So, you know, to jump through the access, there needs to be multiple. So it may be chronic fatigue. It may be a physical condition that's become chronic plus autism ADHD. So we do have a cohort of clients who are able to access the NDIS and then. can come to us for their niche service. So that's great. But then people who can't get that access end up probably developing those conditions later on because of the lack of capacity for them to access the service. So from a, I'm just thinking from a funding government perspective, I'm sure you could go on all day about this, but it just seems crazy. And, you know, I struggled

to understand why that's not enough when it's so debilitating. Well, I guess it's about priority. it's about priority and funding mechanisms. I suppose a lot of the view is that Medicare is and isn't there. It's not there for coaching. You know, ADHD coaching does not exist in Medicare. Focus psychological strategies does. And for us with my mental health social worker who's on board, we can offer a Medicare service that is neurodivergent affirming

and is targeted to the mental health components of ADHD. or something about clients through that pathway. You know, the rest of our services at the moment are private. We're a private practice. Of course, I have lofty goals and ambitions for, you know, applying for grants and targeted funding to be able to subsidise service for clients more broadly in the medium term. But we do have access issues all over the country at the moment

because there's a severe shortage of psychiatrists who are trained in working with ADHD, who are willing to work with ADHD, who do not have their books closed or really long waiting lists. So that's one of the reasons we're unfortunate to partner with a telehealth psychiatrist who we can work, you know, in collaboration with to try to fill some of those gaps. But there's a lot more that we need to do in terms of upskilling GPs and looking at other opportunities to open up access for adults. If you look at the stats, the costs far outweigh, you know, the costs of untreated, you know, long-term conditions in terms of risk, substance abuse, divorce, you know, family breakdown, you know, the rest of it. There's research studies being done on the long-term impacts of not treating ADHD.

So, yes, that's my social work hat, my advocacy hat for the next stages of the business to really be able to see as possible in terms. terms of coming up with creative solutions to then access for clients. Yeah. So it's like there's a safety net there, but you have to fall a really, really long way in order to even get there. Yeah. Oh, shame. What support do you need as a person who's managing a million things at once, starting your own business? Do you have a mentor? Do you have other supports that you can access? Yes, I made sure that when I started this business, I knew I needed to surround myself with support people for me.

The number one thing I did was get a bookkeeper and accountant because I'm not doing that. That is not my feel set. I find it boring. I'm not good at it. I will make mistakes. I'm like, well, if I'm going to run a business, I'm going to outsource that for somebody who's an expert in that. Great.

So, about that. Next thing I did was got someone to answer my phone. and manage reception, because I don't want to do that either. Very difficult to do that while you're running a practice. So in terms of, you know, I have a business mentor I work with who provides that bit of guidance. I got a financial coach who's my lovely, lovely man who I ring up and go, okay, so this is, this is what I'm going to do now and this is, you know, how much can I earn?

And so that's one of just being able to have those people who you can just be authentically going, I don't know everything. I know what I'm good at, I know what I'm not good at, and building a team of people around you who can support you in those areas that I need help, external peer supervision, internal peer supervision, an awesome team who are all, you know, be there for each other as well. So I think it's building those resources so that you're not an island. Yeah. When you're trying to navigate all of this.

Yeah, great. And the people that you work with, your team, they're not all. social workers, I gather. So how does that all work? How do you work together as different professions? Yeah, we've got a bit of an eclectic bunch because all of the therapists and coaches who work with me are all out neurodivergent professionals.

So I guess firstly, that's a bit of a screener because you've got to be okay with that. Then in terms of the team, I guess, because my vision is a very holistic vision of support. We're not looking at just working with one piece of a person. being an ADHD or it affects all of you. It's how you see the world. It's how you operate in the world.

Who you're friends with, who you're in relationship with. Well, I have children in neurodivergent most of the time, highly heritable. You know, 75% heredity factor is the latest research. So we both find similarly wired people and create them and want to work with them. So it's interesting. So the team is kind of connected at various stages on their journey on that. So, you know, I was kind of states, you know, neurodivergent led and kind of, you know, there's a strong social work arm with my background. And then my mental health social worker, you know, sort of taking that therapeutic current arm that can move into that psychology space.

We don't have a psychologist on the team at the moment. Not that I'm opposed to having one. We just haven't found one. Yeah. I've been a new dietitian who's just starting this week, which is amazing. and the rest of my team have got really, really strong, different skills in counselling, clinical supervision. I've got a university lecturer on the team who's a really experienced clinician,

work with neurodivergent couples, you know, can do family-based interventions, can do parenting support, and she's amazing. You know, we've got team members who are really great at working with younger people. Got a male bloke on the team. Yep. We have a male therapist, you know, he's really amazing with working with younger people who might have had trauma background who are sort of coming into terms with their ADHD. We've got an amazing intersectional feminist who, you know, again, is really great at connecting

with, you know, younger women and exploring the experience of being neurodivergent through a cultural lens and the complexities of that. So people are coming with different perspectives. And I've also got a fabulous coach, like an executive coach, and with a positive psychology background who brings something different again. So it can work in leadership areas, can work with corporate and executive, but also that kind of holistic life coaching, careers coaching guidance. So we've got a fair bit of breadth because one size doesn't fit all.

and I really like that because not everyone's going to want to work with me. Some people are going to really want to work with me, you know, but there's a choice and a different fit for really feeling like you can be understood. So that's purposeful. Yeah, such a wonderful combination of skills and experience as well that you've developed them. Yeah, yeah, it's going well. Great guns. Yeah.

So any other mental health social workers who might be listening who might think they are neurodivergent or, oh, no, you know, we're interested. to hear from you because it's been a very liberating experience for some of the staff to actually go, what? That's actually an essential criteria to have a lived experience, you know, a close family member. Like usually it would be a thing that you would hide in an interview or a workplace. So, you know, that's very different in terms of sort of living and breathing who you are. It sounds like then there have been a lot of changes over time, some of which you've championed, but just in terms of trends in diagnosis, trends in awareness,

talking about it more, as you mentioned, that visibility and that reducing stigma. How do you see that playing out? How has it changed over the last five, ten years? And where do you hope to see that continue in the future? I would love to see all forms of difference. I think there was a big push, you know, probably a decade ago of sort of being a little bit out celebrities and people coming out with their experience of mental health and starting to normalise that and talk about it.

And a bit of that is happening with ADHD and with autistic entrepreneurs and people who are very proud of just being who they are and not ashamed. So the biggest thing in reducing stigma is letting go of that shame of being who you are. Like I'll do school pick up in my neurodivergent, you know, T-shirt. Because if somebody asks, then you can talk about it. And when we start to talk about things, then we take away the association that there's something wrong, different, broken, deficient, and can start to dispel all of the myths too. Yeah. And normalise our society is diverse.

We know that. Some diversity is hidden. Some diversity is internalised. from the impact on individuals or how we parent or how, you know, our children see themselves or how the school system is able to adapt and flex and be more creative and not feel like you have to fit a mould or you've failed. So I think that's where I hope that this can go by more people being, that it becomes not even a question that it wouldn't be something that it would just be part of who you are.

and that ultimately our education system is able to adapt and actually accommodate people's different learning styles in a very integrated way. So it doesn't mean that means you need learning support. It means you need to be moving while you're learning or you need to do this practically because you learn through your body because if somebody talks at you, you're not going to be able to process that just through auditory channels. You know, you're visual, you need to see something, you need to do it. You know, we all learn differently.

And so how to curriculum within schools, in mainstream schools, just adapt to that. So you don't have to have a label stuck on your forehead to be able to have an education that suits you. Yeah, you don't get taken out of regular classes. Yes, yes, absolutely. Because when you and I went to school, it was very, you do maths, science and English. And you might have an elective, whereas now there are so many. many more things that have been built into the curriculum. Obviously, there are improvements that can be made, but there's funding for school counselors. Ideally, there would be more social workers in schools

and more counselors in schools, but I think there is that additional catering for different learning types and different subjects that people can take on if, you know, they might have an interest that doesn't involve maths. So, yeah, I think that's great, but more can be done. Yes, absolutely. And I think also to get to the point where there's not this fear around diagnosis, particularly for parents with kids and exploring it. I mean, the amount of parents who go through the process of their kids' diagnosis and by virtue of that go, oh, actually, that's me, that's me, you know. It's huge. But the impact that that has on our kids to normalise difference is fundamental in terms of shaping the person they become, you know, and definitely

a personal experience of that in my own family. And my eldest is amazing. He had learning support. He started high school with learning support and then he topped the year in science. And you're like, okay, so what's going on here exactly? You know, do we just need targeted support in some areas? and enrichment and acceleration in others is usually how it rolls for a lot of neurodivergent brains. There's a bit of a spiky profile really good at some stuff and not really good at some other stuff. And, you know, trying to draw a mean across all of it. It's just meaningless. Just, yeah.

So I think taking away that fear factor and just normalizing difference in diversity is so powerful. Yeah. And in amongst all the hundreds of things, things that you do on a day-to-day basis. Do you have the opportunity to work on any programs or projects? Is there anything exciting you're working on at the moment? Or even, like, are you part of any networks or focus groups or people that need to have this input from people who work in their space? That is not something I've managed to facilitate after eight months of the startup environment. It's definitely something I'm interested in being involved with.

And that kind of consultation and speaking and connecting is I had to realize and accept that I can't do all of the things all at once. And, you know, that is a personal challenge of mine to try to set realistic expectations. So some of that stuff is next step or opportunity-based as well. Sure. Absolutely. That will be a yes. Get your ducks in a row.

Yes, please. Yes. But yes, please. But it also sounds as though in order to do that you might need to bring more people on board, build the business so that you can take a bit more of a back step. But I also get the feeling you don't want to do that. You want to keep your feet on the ground at the same time and try to have that opportunity for therapeutic counselling in your day.

It's the balance of it. So I'm drawn to the leadership and the business development at this part of my career. But I do think it's really important to remain connected to client experience. So it's just about getting that client load, just the sweet spot where you're connected, but then you've got the opportunity and the time and the headspace to progress, you know, building an organisation and all of the things that that takes. And so I have a big framework in my head of where that's going, but you're right, it's one step at a time because you have to build the resources to be able to put a lot of that in place.

As you go, as you go. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm hearing that a lot of your work is informed by social work-type perspectives at least. You've mentioned trauma-informed, and also I'm hearing feminist and anti-oppressive practices. Are there any resources, any places where people could go to learn more about that or any links that you could provide? I think that it's an interesting intersection at the moment, and one of the reasons I'm really passionate about bringing those social work perspectives into this area is that it's been largely devoid of that kind of advocacy activism intersectionality there's largely existed within a medical model there's often

a disempowering expert patient disordered deficit-based language yeah so i'm not comfortable in that space and working in that although we need to we need to work in partnership to do that in a way that's empowering for our clients. I think really, obviously, we'll be developing all of that as we go in blogs and resources. One of the best resources I found, which is targeted at women, it's called a radical guide for women with ADHD. It was written by Saris Alden and Michelle Frank. And I started reading that book and went, oh, did you get inside my head when I was developing

this? Right? I'm like, oh, you, that's cool, that's cool, because they were at the forefront of kind of championing what ADHD looks like for women and the experience of ADHD for women and that it is different and it's valid and that it's something to be spoken about and understood. So that guide is really powerful in terms of having a very strength-based approach and empowering approach to understanding yourself and taking up space in the world. So I love that as a resource and I wish I'd

have time to read all. I'm sure there are many more and I'll spam you with additional links to be referenced in the notes but I think it's a growing area, you know, because there's intersections, sexuality, you know, sexual identity, disability, labels, what do you prefer to be called? How does that reflect your identity? You know, in terms of feminist perspectives and why? One of the first blogs that I wrote was about why ADHD is a feminist issue in that the women have been overlooked for many, many years of even having a place or a voice in being acknowledged of the validity of experience. And it's really important to unpack that and understand that there are so many implicit assumptions of what women can carry. And, you know, it's like by default, stress is

normalized and that divisions of labour are normalized. and that's just going to be your life. So, you know, we don't want to accept, we don't want to accept that. We want to unpack it and understand, you know, much more functional ways of being in the world and society. What's more equality there. Yeah. It just sounds so important for people to be writing about this

from their own experience and perspective because otherwise you're getting people who are reading really dry textbooks that are coming from that medical model that aren't really explaining the lived experience. So even things like books that have someone who is out in terms of then neurodivergence as not even the protagonist, it could be a supporting role, but whatever it is, just include it, start including it, have actors who are out talk about it

and talk about the struggles of how it is to try to fit into that mold of, you know, I'm on a film set and I have a deadline and I'm supposed to do this what do I do? What is that experience like? Yeah. Not just for people to get a sense of what it's like for them, but also as models, for them to be models for other people to say people with ADHD can do anything. It's just a matter of finding that right support and getting that awareness in the first place,

that that might be something that needs treatment in order to be your best self. That's it. Yeah. Leverage the potential of your creative brain. You've mentioned blog a couple of times, and I think is there a podcast? Are there a couple of things you'd like to plug? Well, thank you. Working on all of the things.

So there is a YouTube channel that is growing. I think we've got three followers at the moment, so it would be really great to have a few more. Yes, everyone like, subscribe. Yes, please like to subscribe. This year, we've booked in regular times to film and record. Obviously, we're filming and recording to target people who need visuals to listen, or obviously, you know, also just have audio. But that's on the agenda for this year as a rollout of a number of topics that we feel

are really sort of pivotal and relevant to the work we're doing. There's a list as long as my arm of the blogs that are going to be written. There's a couple that have been written and a couple underdevelopment. So those are on the website. So pretty much we're connecting to the website, Instagram page, Facebook page, and the vision is TikTok as well to catch the younger audience. The youth. The youth.

I'm like, I'm too old for Instagram and TikTok. So I've outsourced the Instagram and then the filming and the, we've got to work through our own stuff as we go through this. But I think podcasting and interview and kind of getting more comfortable in that space, when we're usually the people behind the scenes asking the questions and putting attention to support our clients can be a little bit confronting to kind of turn that around and get your voice out there and make your face out there and encourage others to do the same that's it that's it so there's a you know a bit of rock star brene brown you know star social worker as a caller you know

yeah moving through your vulnerability courage takes vulnerability so I think that's a big part of the journey as well. So hopefully in six months' time there'll be like a series of podcasts because my my six-year-old is a bit like, well, where's the podcast, mum? Like I'm going, you know, going to follow it. But that one's a bit long and too much talking. So, you know, moving into that space and getting comfortable with being creative, I think. Yeah. So part of it as well. Amazing. Making things accessible. It's so important. That's it. Yes. Is there anything else about the work that you, you do or about the business that you want to tell people about? I think probably the last thing that's really important to me is when I was developing this business idea, the Divergent Edge

kind of sounds like a band name. I mean, for me as a frustrated. And the logo looks like Pink Floyd. That's right. Okay, so it's edgy on purpose, you know. I always wish that I was lead singer in a band, but like the talent. You could be in Roxette, I reckon. Oh, okay, will you? It fits. Which makes sense to no one unless they're looking at the YouTube video right now. Well, there you go.

You'll be able to see it sort of there in the background. There is a brand that's, it's different on purpose to catch clients who maybe feel like they haven't found their place or their support person or their therapist that gets it who's comfortable with being a bit out there. You're either going to love us or not, and I'm okay with that. Yeah. Not trying to meet everybody's needs. But I think the feedback that we've had so far is that the branding with that rebellious

kind of outspoken edge and that integrated strengths approach, particularly in this sector, is a point of difference. And so that's really, really important to me as I guess a feature of, not only myself feeling comfortable within the brand, but brand alignment for staff and the vision of, you know, being a bit of an agitator or a social agitator over time to get conversations started. So there's that empowered, you know, when we get the merch line set up on the website, also under development when we've got T-shirts and stickers and hats and fidget things and Like I've got lots of ideas for all of that.

Yeah. You know, to be able to what a goal to have clients. You know, if someone who was brave enough to walk around wearing a diversion edge t-shirt that, you know, that they felt proud that they were connected with. So I think there's that positivity, but, you know, it's not your traditional therapeutic practice, I suppose. And it's important that it's not. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I think so. I think so for our fit. And if it resonates with clients who are looking for support, if there's something that speaks to you that's appealing, not everyone needs to have obviously wanted to be the lead singer and that's not what it's about. But it was that kind of strength, you know,

the triangle is strongest shape. So it's a bit in your face on purpose in a really nice supportive way because obviously we're therapists and we're here to help. So, you know, there's that. is that dichotomy there. Yeah. I think it's just been so helpful that you've broken down ADHD features for me and trends and treatment and that you've been so active in leading change in the sector.

I think it's so important. And often as social workers, we can be striving for something, but it might not be the right fit for us. And so it's just not going to work and we're going to lose sight of why we started in the first place. But you've been able to create more effective services, which is really wonderful, and you've chosen to see each interaction as an opportunity for normalizing that diversity, which is incredible.

Yeah, thank you. I loved what you were saying about social agitation. There's such a passion in that. And in order to have that, you need to know so much about the sector. You know, you need to know what you're working with your cohort, but also what supports are out there and what the legislation and the guidelines are looking like in order to mix things up a bit. So that's really cool.

I look forward to the opportunity to share these ideas with my listeners, and maybe they can then take things back to their families or their networks, spread the word and just get other people interested in, firstly, knowing more about the work that you do, but secondly, being open to that vulnerability and reaching out there and creating something for themselves that might not have been on their radar before, or they might have just thought there's no one out there that feels this, way and maybe people can be reaching out and seeing you as a mentor as well and hopefully you'd be

open to asking any questions if anyone else wants to interact oh absolutely absolutely no i think that that's really important and i welcome you know collaboration and partnership and networking i think being a telehealth service as well is even more important we do our connections virtually but that becomes really powerful as a way of connecting and building a movement. If we don't want to get too grand about it, you know, eight months into the startup. But I had a really great conversation really early on with a very wise mentor who said to me, Danny, don't limit yourself. Don't limit the vision.

Because wherever you draw the line, you know, human nature, you'll probably not quite get there. you know so don't limit the vision for what's possible so at the moment i don't i don't know what the end what done looks like which is terrifying well yeah i'm like okay we'll just keep moving and see where it evolves and i think you know balancing that with self-care and looking after yourself and how do we manage all of these things and be measured about what's possible in timeframes but i think building collaboration and like-minded people who can resource each other along the way is really, really important. So bring it on. Find your tribe. That's it. Find your tribe. If you haven't found it, you've got to connect and build it, I think, and that can be very, very powerful, particularly if

you've lived a life of feeling like you didn't quite fit in. Yep, absolutely. Well, that's a great thing to leave us on. Thank you again so much for this opportunity. I've loved meeting with you. and I can't wait to share this with my listeners. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. It's a pleasure. Thank you. Bye. Thanks for joining me this week. If you would like to continue this discussion or ask anything of either myself or Danny,

please visit my anchor page at anchor.fm slash social work spotlight. You can find me on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter, or you can email SW Spotlight Podcast at gmail.com. I'd love to hear from you. Please also let me know if there is a particular topic you'd like discussed or if you or another person you know would like to be featured on the show. Next episode's guest is Alyssa, a social worker turned program development and grant writing consultant. She has over seven years experience supporting the delivery of community-based programs and is incredibly passionate about achieving measurable outcomes. Currently, Alyssa is in the process of establishing her own business, supporting NGOs and community-minded organizations.

to develop, fund and deliver impactful projects. I release a new episode every two weeks. Please subscribe to my podcast so you're notified when this next episode is available. See you next time.