Social Work Spotlight - Episode 57: Alyssa

Episode Date: May 13, 2022

In this episode I speak with Alyssa, a social worker turned program development & grant writing consultant.  She has over 7 years’ experience supporting the delivery of community-based programs and is incredibly passionate about achieving measurable outcomes. Currently Alyssa is in the process of establishing her own business, supporting NGOs and community-minded organisations to develop, fund and deliver impactful projects.Links to resources mentioned in this week’s episode:Alyssa’s website - https://www.alyssamedway.com/National Implementation Research Network (NIRN) Active Implementation Hub (provides a series of free online learning modules) - https://nirn.fpg.unc.edu/ai-hubMurdoch Children's Research Institute Evidence-Informed Decision-making framework (Tim Moore) - https://www.rch.org.au/uploadedFiles/Main/Content/ccchdev/CCCH-Towards-a-model-of-evidence-informed-decisio-making-and-service-delivery-Tim-Moore-May2016.pdfAustralian Institute of Family Studies publications - https://aifs.gov.au/publications/search?f%5B0%5D=bm_field_retired_publication%3Aorbm_field_retired_publication%3AfalseThis episode's transcript can be viewed here:https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Clksjs5Ggd8PwFvs1jWnutnYAiXx6Ssr_UsEPRa-fms/edit?usp=sharingThanks to Kevin Macleod of incompetech.com for our theme music.

Hi and welcome to Social Work Spotlight where I showcase different areas of the profession in each episode. I'm your host, Yasmin McKee Wright, and today's guest is Alyssa, a social worker turned program development and grant writing consultant. She has over seven years experience supporting the delivery of community-based programs and is incredibly passionate about achieving measurable outcomes. Despite her experience in a wide variety of program areas, including project implementation, practice coaching, and program development, social work theory and practice has provided a strong foundation for all of her work. Currently, Alyssa is in the process of establishing her own business, supporting NGOs and community-minded organizations to develop, fund and deliver impactful projects. Thanks, Alyssa, for coming onto the podcast. Glad to have you here and thanks for making the time to do this.

Thanks. Thanks for having me. Yeah, I'll start firstly with when did you, become a social worker, what drew you to the profession in the first place? I guess it wasn't a particularly straightforward journey in many ways, but I don't know for how many people that ever happened so much. So initially I studied international relations, international and global studies, thinking I wanted to work somewhere like the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, DFAT, or in international development somewhere. But to be honest, it was quite tricky when I graduated and I think you know, that's a particularly challenging road to go down, particularly in Australia. And so I quickly found myself working in administration for my university, working in the dental

department of all places, which was a bit of an interesting time. And then so while I was working, I did a number of volunteer projects. So I volunteered with a group of asylum seekers, supporting particularly asylum seeker and refugee children to, I guess, adjust to life in Australia, but also just to have respite on weekends and go out and do something fun. And so we used to take them for day trips. We did things like skateboard painting and, yeah, trips all around Sydney, which was fun. And we did some school camps with them. And I guess from a few different volunteer experiences, I realized that working with people was something that I really wanted to do.

and something that I enjoyed and then started to think maybe social work would make sense from that perspective. I also decided that if I wanted to study again, then I wanted to make sure I was pursuing something that was both practical and theoretical. And after doing, yeah, a bit of a search and talking to friends and things, I realized that social work was a good alignment with my values, but also would allow me to not just work at a desk, I'd be able to go out in the field and and work with people, but also that, yeah, there's a good breadth on offer. Yeah. Wow. So were there some social workers that you were exposed to as part of doing that volunteer work that kind of inspired you then to follow down this path? A lot of it was run by

other volunteers. And I guess that was something that struck me as well was, you know, we were doing quite important work, I guess, for free all of us. But a lot of it was, wasn't really regulated. You know, we were working with really vulnerable communities and vulnerable kids, but we were kind of the ones in the driver seats setting up frameworks and things, and yet in many ways, I don't actually know that any of the other volunteers, at least in some of the volunteer roles I was working in were, yeah, were actually social workers at the time. for people who are interested in retraining such as you've done, how was that process, what went through sort of in terms of your pros and cons and what did you need to do in order

to be able to do that remote learning? That's a really great question because it did take me quite a long time. I think I had kind of committed to this identity as someone who is really interested and passionate about international relations and international development to some extent, but I was really struggling to break into that industry. And so it did take a little bit of quite a bit of self-reflection, actually, and a bit of breaking down my attachment to that old identity and welcoming in this new one. And a bit of trepidation, I guess, not really knowing how that would eventuate. In choosing social work, I was quite certain that if I was to retrain,

I wanted to train in something practical and where there were opportunities, because I guess the last thing I wanted was to do another degree and then find myself still really unsure. And I guess what I really liked about social work was that no matter what, it comes with some really tangible skills, you know, you get a lot of great interpersonal skills training. And as much as I know, the, the placements can be the bane of a lot of students' existence and is a big ask, you know, four days a week of unpaid work for 17 odd weeks. That said, those placements were invaluable in terms of me finding work straight after my studies. So I guess it was a big financial commitment. I was lucky and I was able to sort of manage a small amount of work on top of studies, which kind of got me through. But

it is a commitment in terms of saying, okay, for the next two years, I'm not thinking about my savings so much as I'm thinking about my career development and just kind of need to get by for that time. So I guess being realistic about that. And, you know, I also acknowledge not everyone is able financially to make that kind of decision. But yeah, I think just kind of committing to, and committing to throw yourself in wholeheartedly if you can really make time for that, I think is important. Yeah. And it sounds as though you got some credit, some recognition of prior learning so that you didn't have to go right back to the start. I know. I actually, Yeah, I did, unfortunately.

I'd have to go right back to the start. Yeah. Because you didn't have maybe the psychology credits or sociology. Yeah, I'm trying to think now. From memory, I, yeah, I think there just wasn't enough overlap. I might have gotten prior recognition for maybe one elective or so. But, yeah, the social work electives were quite different to my undergraduate degree, which was kind of more of, yeah, international global studies.

arts. So yeah, I kind of did have to go back to the beginning, but did still find the units really practical and really useful. And where did you do your placements? So I did one placement in child protection, actually, which was a real eye-opener and very much kind of, yeah, practice level, case management. And, you know, there at the time, students, and I'm sure this is still the case to some extent were very much covering and kind of thrown into the deep end of the work because everyone's sort of short-staffed, there's a lot of work to be done. And then my second placement was at an asylum seeker centre, so working with asylum seekers in Sydney. And yeah, that was sort of in the case management team. So again, kind of on the groundwork, but in a very

different area. So I really liked the fact that I got exposure to two different areas. And And yeah, I guess asylum seeker politics and things in Australia had always been an interest to me since my undergrad. So it was also a nice compliment, I guess, to my original studies, but actually kind of interesting to see how that actually evolved meeting people who had arrived and learning about their needs and how to best sort of support and meet those needs. You say that you've had a somewhat unconventional career path, though. So from leaving university and spending some time in Sydney before heading overseas, how did that all pan out?

What are the steps that led to you working overseas? Yeah, so I took a few different steps. During my volunteering time, I mentioned I spent about a month in Wadair in a remote community in Australia. And that work actually really called to me. I had a really great time working in that community. And it was actually very sad to go back to Sydney at the time. And so I thought, oh, if I'm feeling this frazzled by having to leave this beautiful place and beautiful community members and things, then maybe that's a sign that remote work

is somewhat right for me. And so I actually, when I got back on a whim, I applied for a role in another community in Western Australia, sort of in the East Kimberleys, and started working as a case manager with young kids coming transitioning in and out of the juvenile justice system. So that was quite an intense role. And kind of my first, yeah, I guess prior to that, I'd work in out-of-home care in Sydney. And then so I wanted to kind of stay on this journey of working practically with people on the ground. But yeah, it went very quickly into a role that I very quickly found was quite an intense role.

I didn't actually last very long. suffice to stay in that position. I quickly realized I, yeah, was not suited for work with adolescence, and it was particularly challenging work. But was very fortunate through word of mouth, actually, to fall into a role with a local Aboriginal corporation in this community, which I found to be much more suited. And I learned a lot about Aboriginal ways of program design

and delivery in that community and really appreciated that it was a Indigenous-run organisation and managed, and that I was sort of one of few outsiders within the organisation, which was great because I stood to learn a lot in that space, but also was able to bring in, I guess, the more conventional social work knowledge, which I think paired together helped to meet funder obligations on the one hand, while also still doing things in line with what made sense for community,

and not imposing my own views or beliefs on what that kind of work should be. So that's kind of a bit of a tangent, but that was just kind of prior to my work overseas. And yeah, an important, I guess, stepping stone and a steep learning curve working with diverse communities in Australia. And quickly realized as well, you know, the huge diversity in Aboriginal communities across Australia, you know, I think there's often this sense of,

I guess just often that we forget. get how diverse communities are from Victoria to Western Australia and the different needs and things. And so, yeah, that was a really important experience in my career. So in part of that process, especially if you're working for an organisation that's very grassroots, there'd be a lot of nuance around reporting requirements, I would imagine, for those funding bodies. And that's a good transition. then to the type of work you're doing now in terms of supporting people to develop proposals or to help them with their reporting. And I imagine there's a lot to do with setting up for success. So if as

part of the funding process in developing a plan or a program, you're building into that proposal a way to measure the success, then I imagine that makes it a lot easier for some of these organizations on the ground? I have found in my work that I've I've kind of jumped between, I guess, casework roles and roles on the ground and more macro social work. So working in how do we measure outcomes and how do we develop programs so that we can understand what works in communities or how do we translate research to practice for practitioners into, you know, bite-sized pieces that social workers on the run can digest. That work has really led me to the work you mentioned now

that I'm doing now supporting organisations with things like grant writing and program development. They are quite transferable skills in that if you understand, I guess, what funders are looking for in a program, that also helps, I guess, going back to the design stage of how do we please both funders, but also how do we make sure our program is reflective of something that our community wants and our knowledge about community,

but also the voices of community members themselves, which I think quite often get overlooked. And I think sometimes the good work that's happening on the ground isn't measurable in the way that funders would like. So certainly in international development type of work, I noticed very quickly that a lot of the funding is outputs focused because it's very easy to measure, you know, how much material relief you give to a community.

It's very easy to say we provided, you know, know, 20 mosquito nets to a community rather than to talk about the trickle-down impact of something like that or to think about, you know, more complex interpersonal work that you might have done and the impact that had on someone down the line. So, yeah, I think it's been interesting to see. And that was always something getting into social work that I thought was, well, I was always very interested in the policy space and research space. I didn't want to jump straight into a career in those areas without having first worked on the ground and understood what that feels like and what's happening and being close to people and hearing their stories and things.

I can imagine also if you're trying to really measure, even how do you measure rapport building? It's just if you're going to measure anything in terms of financial impact, potentially you'd have to, your measurement needs to be multidisciplinary and multi-organizational. So for the example of mosquito nets, if you've given 20 mosquito nets to families, what impact does that have on their health? Therefore, what impact does that have on their economical viability? All those sorts of things. So, yeah, how far do you measure it and how many resources do you need just to be able to measure? Yeah, and look, something that I did notice, so I was working initially on a social emotional well-being program in this organisation.

and we quickly found that part of the funding expectation was that there were counselling sessions with a certain number of clients and families per quarter. But we quickly found that counselling in that community didn't always happen conventionally. You know, people were often in a rush, people had a lot of housing stress, a lot of material stress. And so some of the most valuable conversations I had with people were in the car while we were on the way to the grocery store or to pick up their mail or things. And not only was that an important rapport building exercise, which is difficult to measure,

but also it takes a lot of pressure off when you're sitting side by side with someone in a car as opposed to sitting in a very conventional kind of therapeutic space, which not everyone feels comfortable in or necessarily understands how that process works or should work. But it was very difficult for us case noting to make sure, and I guess that was part of my role in that organisation, was to say, hey, I can see that you guys and myself are all doing really valuable work here,

but how do we capture this so that we can convince our funders that our work is valuable, even though it's not playing out in a conventional way? What was the first international role that you picked up? Yes, so coming back to that. So I've actually only, well, there was a program called Australian Volunteers for International Development, which I believe someone else you've interviewed might have, done an assignment with as well. So that is a program with targeted assignments that sends volunteers overseas to work. And I got a placement in a small community center in Penhompen in Cambodia.

That was pre-pandemic. And I worked as a social work technical advisor. So supporting them to run some trainings within the organisation with social workers, but also I guess my main role was mentoring the casework manager in the organisation to take on a more senior role and sort of to build her confidence in that role. So kind of being a bit of an in-between, which I thought was really important. It's great to see a shift that's happening in international development and in international NGOs towards local leadership rather than having people from outside come in. But I guess to do that, there's also some knowledge sharing, I guess, that we've got to engage in thinking about what their internal social work systems were

in terms of my education, marrying that with the different cultural norms and cultural considerations when you're working in a Cambodian community. Not that I can say the process is always perfect by any means, but yeah, there was a lot of learning in that role. How long did you anticipate being in that role? So that was a 12-month assignment, which ended up being 10 months because unfortunately the entire program was disbanded at the start of the pandemic and everyone was sent home.

I was very grateful to get 10 months. I had a lot of friends who'd just arrived, people that I'd met who'd just arrived and sort of had to quickly get sent back. so in many ways I do, I am grateful, but yeah, it was quite a destabilizing time. I can imagine. And when did you feel safe to return to international work? So actually, while I am currently living overseas, I have been in the process of setting up my own business remotely.

So I am, I guess, somewhat of a digital nomad, although I don't know if I've fully taken on that badge. But I guess after two years of lockdown in Melbourne, my partner and I made the decision to sort of work remotely for a year to two years. And so now, yeah, I've been in the process of setting up my own business, working with organizations, supporting with grant writing services and project development services, which has been also a really interesting process after, you know, working somewhat full time for the last six years or so and now shifting into a very different pace and style of work. I can imagine, especially as a relatively new social worker,

setting up a business would be incredibly daunting. What sort of support have you had in terms of making that work and knowing what to do in the first place? Yeah, that's a great question. It's been quite a learning experience. I have a number of friends, which is really fortunate, who have gone into consulting and set up their own businesses. And so I guess I've been able, able to learn from friends and colleagues. I have a friend who's based in Goa in India, who I regularly talk to, I guess, for advice and even just a bit of a sanity check, you know, is what I'm doing, a crazy idea, or is it feasible? Does it make sense? Because I think it's really natural to have anxieties around these things. And you do have to be very patient because it's very different when

you work full time and you have a regular salary and things, but getting used to the unpredictability of project work. I really enjoy the flexibility of it and it's sort of quite suited to where we are at this moment in our lives. So I'm also grateful for that aspect, I guess. Yeah. And working alone, have you found, obviously you've got people that you can talk to about the business and that side of things, but what keeps you going? What keeps you motivated? Yeah. I mean, I really enjoy working with the clients that I do currently have. So that has been a nice motivator. I've been fortunate to work with an ex-colleague as well. And I guess it's the work that really drives me, because I've found the skill that I've built over time in terms of grant writing and project

development work. And so while some days might be quieter than others, and I might not have sort of the same meetings that I had when I was in a full-time job or colleagues and things in that sense. but yeah, maybe I'm a bit of an introverted extrovert I've come to realize. So while I've got a project in front of me or while I'm sort of doing background work on my business, I'm able to find ways, I guess, to motivate myself while also still connecting when I need that support. Sounds like a pretty good balance. Have you come across or had the opportunity to work with a lot of formerly trained social

workers in your international work? So I was lucky my predecessor who was in a sort of country manager role at the organization I worked for was a trained social worker. And there is something to be said about having colleagues who are social workers in that you speak the same language. And I think there's a understanding of how one another operates and one another's values and principles, which I was really grateful for. particularly, you know, it was a challenging environment to work in. So she was a great mentor and someone to learn from, I guess, when I first moved domestically in Australia, in my role in remote Australia, while I was the only sort of, I guess, formally trained social worker, there were a number of other social workers within the town

I lived in. So it was good to be able to draw on supports from other organisations within the town, even if it wasn't necessarily where I was because, yeah, you do often kind of need that support, I guess. And I know that in Cambodia, at least social work is a relatively new profession. I'm wondering if you have any insight into how the training might differ or the approaches and just how that formalization is different internationally. It's a good question and something I was really conscious of going into the in Cambodia, I was actually really impressed to find that my colleagues who had been working

for this organisation for a few years, most of them had psychology degrees and they'd all done interpersonal skills training. So they were actually incredibly qualified and, you know, very empathetic, really good working in their rapport building skills and things. I believe one or two of them were also going into study social work more formally. So a lot of the work I was doing was around things like at the time we didn't have a domestic violence policy or process. So I sort of supported them to think about that and to do a training and, you know, how do we respond in situations like that related to domestic and family violence. But there were also some really tricky cultural aspects of that to navigate in that, you know, family challenges are very private in Cambodia. I mean, they're also private in places like Australia too, unfortunately.

but I guess the socially acceptable way to deal with that is very different in Cambodia to Australia. There were times, for example, where following up after an event would be seen as imposing. So we had some conversations about things like duty of care. But it does get tricky because you don't want to just impose a Western way of working. You want to make sure that there's, I guess, a middle ground to be found or that people understand why you're approaching it that way. So yeah, I had some really complex and interesting conversations, I guess, with my colleagues on what policy would make sense in that environment without imposing my viewpoint, but also not wanting to, you know, I guess I do take somewhat of a human rights standpoint on some of these things as well. And so without wanting to compromise or impact clients well-being either and keeping that at the centre of discussion, I guess. That's really hard.

And I guess something that doesn't just affect people in different countries. It's that respect and acknowledgement of local practices and beliefs, which again would have been quite a pertinent thing in the Aboriginal communities. So you've had a lot of experience in acknowledging and responding to those sorts of issues. But I imagine with a cultural and language barrier, that would be a little bit more difficult in a country where, you're probably very much seen as an outsider, but also there's a huge power dynamic there. I guess you just need to be really careful of making sure that people will feel comfortable

coming to you with those sorts of concerns and that they understand that, you know, you have a different way of seeing things. Yeah, and I guess on that, I mean, it's been interesting. So I have, alongside a lot of this work, I've done some tutoring for a university in Australia. and through that have kind of had conversations with a professor who's been a great mentor for me. And we've talked a lot about the difference between things like cultural competence and cultural humility and switching from this frame of I need to find a way to be competent when I'm working in diverse communities.

And as this thought of this is a skill that I can master and perfect to one of humility where I acknowledge, I am going to make mistakes. it is common, but also I'm constantly open to learning because also culture is not static. It shifts and changes and I guess as practitioners and whether you're in a practice or a research role, I guess we need to be responsive to that and understanding and forgiving when we make mistakes, but also honest and acknowledge that we have made them and how we can overcome that. In your discussions with people who have worked in this space for many years, especially in working with international NGOs and coming in and providing support,

have there been a lot of changes over time, whether that shifts because of government policies or international relations, and where do you see social work continuing to make an impact in this area? I guess my experience in international development was fairly short-lived, being only 10 months and then kind of coming back home. But I guess from what I understand, the tide was definitely turning in Cambodia from this focus

on sending in outside resources into a community and having people from those outside countries taking on leadership roles and things and the response very much being driven externally. I think what was great to see was while I was there, the tide was shifting on that. And now that things like social work are becoming a bit more recognized, there's a focus on on local leadership, on organizations being driven and run locally, and people's, you know, communities themselves are getting to inform programs where I think before it was a fairly interventionist approach. I mean, Cambodia has one of the highest concentrations of NGOs in the world, or at least it did have. So, you know, kind of a pretty full space. But yeah, I guess

what was nice to see was that shift to respecting and understanding local knowledge and motivations and seeing that change is best affected by people who understand their communities best. And for the most part, the role that we could play, and I guess what eventually landed me in things like grant writing is if the reporting needs to be done in English, for example, if the funding is coming from an English-speaking country, then sometimes there is a role to play in reporting what's happening on the ground, in securing more funding. And I think those can be really beneficial roles without impacting people and programming too much and bringing in our thoughts on how that should be done, but rather just getting people the money they need to do these

programs. And I imagine once they can demonstrate the capacity, then that leads the space open for more funding, for more projects or a larger amount of funding for. for them to develop their organisation more. That's right, yeah. And I guess a lot of the systems of evaluation that we have are again coming externally. And so a lot of that capacity may not be available in-house for very reasonable reasons. But so if we're asking people to report against a metric that we have imposed, then I guess the least that can happen is that people are supported through that.

and then, as you say, ideally, more funding can come into the right places as a result. Yeah. Obviously, you're very passionate about this area of practice at the moment. Are there other areas? You mentioned you had a placement in Department of Communities and Justice. Are there any other areas of social work that you might be interested in developing further? Yeah, I guess I fell into a role. So often I sit in West, Western Australia, I sort of found myself in a role working in child and family welfare and as a research to practice officer. So thinking about research translation and taking research away from hefty journal articles and writing it up in a palatable format for people who can sort of implement

that on the ground. What a novel idea. Yeah. And, you know, well, I think more and more roles in that sort of area are immersed. What I did really like about that space was that it allowed me to engage with, I guess, a bit more of an eclectic evidence base. And so I got to see a bit more the intersection of social work with implementation science, with evaluation. And implementation science, for example, was not something I ever learned or heard about in my degree.

And then suddenly I realized there's this whole other discipline just focused on how we implement a program effectively, particularly evidence-based program. how we do that to measure outcomes and to ensure that it's actually working on the ground. And so I think if I hadn't gone into that role, I never would have gotten that bird's eye view, I guess, of how we have this emerging way of implementing programs and we have this emerging body of research around things like practice elements and evidence-based programs,

because I guess I hadn't been exposed to how programs are developed and where that government funding goes. And so that's definitely an area of interest that I'd be interested in understanding more and diving into more. I did spend a few years in that kind of area. But yeah, there's a lot to learn. Yeah, especially if we don't learn any of that at university. You know, if we don't have the opportunity to practice grant writing. And we definitely, I mean, there's some aspect of the scientific reasoning and processes when we study psychology.

but nowhere near to that degree and with a different focus. So I think that's definitely something that you would learn on the job and can't possibly be expected to know straight away. But it's good that you would have the opportunity to learn that on the job because you're learning how to do that with the specific community that you're focusing on at the time. Yeah, and it was great learning about it that way also because I then got a sense of, I guess,

what government innovations were in the pipeline. And a lot of that, in some ways, it was translating or beginning to translate to universities in Melbourne, but hadn't really translated where I studied yet and was kind of at the cutting edge of practice development in the child and family welfare space in Victoria. But it's also important, I guess, that these innovations still carry or still consider social work values. Is that something that you consciously have to think about doing, or do you feel as though you're able to automatically, as you're processing things, think about the social work

values and the approaches when you're doing that research. It's funny because a lot of, I guess what I noticed was happening was a lot of those programs were developed in multidisciplinary teams, which is a good thing. But also, you know, yeah, a number of people in, in the development space aren't necessarily social work trained, which isn't always a problem. But I think, I guess the considerations become different at that level because, you know, we're thinking about funding and government priorities sometimes, which don't always align the way we think they will with what communities need or want. And then there's also challenges of efficiency, you know, how many people can realistically be paid to do this work or how quickly does an intervention or a program need to be

implemented. Yeah. And so I think these are things that I probably more implicitly do along the way because I guess that was my evidence base for such a long time and has at least formed the foundations of work with clients. But then I still also very much see the value of things like implementation, science and evaluation. And it's exciting to see, I guess, that there are more opportunities for social workers to intersect with those bodies of research also because I think you kind of need all three to actually understand and I guess to measure what's happening and whether it's working and things. Yeah. If people wanted to know more about the sort of work that you've been doing, are there any good resources? I'm curious myself to read up about implementation science.

Is there anything good out there you would recommend I start with? So on an implementation science front, my go-to has sort of been the National Implementation Research Network, so that's NERN, NIRN. So if you Google that, they have some great resources and modules that are quite foundational to implementation science. You'll also find some interesting resources in things like the Australian Institute of Family Studies, has some background information on things like the difference between evidence-based programs and evidence-informed practices. One framework that has kind of stuck with me, I guess, through my work, has been Tim Moore's Evidence-informed Decision-Making Framework,

which I think has been really valuable, whether at a practice level or a research level, thinking about how we integrate, you know, research evidence with practice, wisdom and client values, And how do we bring those three pillars together, I guess, to make sure we're working in a way that is robust, but hopefully, ideally impacting the most change for clients. Yeah. And coming from a health background, everything that I've worked with, the terminology is evidence-based. How do you see the difference between evidence-based and evidence-in-form in terms of your approaches?

Yeah. And it matters so much, I guess it depends whether you're, in what capacity, you're working with clients and things. I mean, through conversations I've had with colleagues and things, like I've got a really close friend who's an art therapist, for example, and her and I used to talk a lot about things like there's this terminology around evidence-based practice, but there's also practice-based evidence that I think gets overlooked quite often, which is, you know, practitioners working on the ground who know that what

they're doing is working, like particularly for something quite new like art therapy, there may not always be the evidence underpinning the fact. And I'm not saying this is necessarily specific to art therapy, but there might be an approach that we're using on the ground that we know is working, but we don't have a robust journal article to say so, or we haven't done a formal evaluation, but our clients are telling us it's working. And we're seeing changes in their lives,

but we haven't documented it yet. And so I think that was a really important realisation. to think of because I think my bias is always towards research evidence when it's not always the case when we're working in experimental areas of practice but that shouldn't devalue the work that we're doing just because we don't have that yet. Yeah, that's so interesting. If anyone was wanting to know more about working for international agencies or volunteering overseas, where would you direct them? I would direct them to the Australian volunteers, for international development is a good one. At the moment, because of COVID, all the projects are online.

But if you are interested, it's a great way to do some volunteering for organisations remotely. And if eventually you do want to work overseas, that might be a good in-road to connect with organisations who might then have roles available. That's a nice stepping stone. And then, you know, if you do get to visit the countries, there's typically ways, I guess, once you're on the ground of finding organisations who need staff. And how would that work? I guess I'm curious what that volunteer project would look like if it was remote,

because at least when I perceive volunteer opportunities with remote communities, I think of what can you do if you're not on the ground. So what would that look like, do you think? I believe the assignments are quite varied. So they're not only looking for social workers, I guess. They're looking for people with marketing backgrounds or, yeah, people with grant writing experience and things. but it is a real variety. So I guess it's just a matter of checking their website and seeing what their needs are at the moment. I believe there's a lot of fundraising initiatives and things.

So yeah, it's kind of, I mean, for me, I was lucky to find an assignment that I felt like fit my skills at the time. So yeah, at the moment, if you are looking for something that's actually working closely with people, it might be trickier until borders open fully again. But it can just be a good way to connect with agencies and get a better sense of what they actually need. Because I think we come at this work with all kinds of assumptions

and then sometimes it's quite surprising to see what's actually needed. Yeah, absolutely. I think your diplomatic aspirations have gotten you very far, even though you haven't continued on the path that you initially thought that you would. I think it's helped you to develop a good understanding of community and government needs through, obviously you need to know a lot about these communities before you can write grants and before you can advocate for them. So even if it's a community project or a health research project,

you've been able to develop skills in understanding context and articulating needs of a community. I guess that's, yeah, a nice way to put it. It's funny because I don't know that we often take a step back and actually reflect on the skills that we're developing until, yeah, sometimes later down the line. But yeah, I am really grateful in that sense for the opportunities that I've had. Because it's also given me an appreciation of the challenges on all fronts and the systemic challenges, I guess, that happen in the welfare system. Not that I'm an expert by any means, but I think having opportunities to see a bird's eye view and understand

why things are happening the way they are can be quite useful, particularly when we're pitching for funding, for organisations and things. Yeah, and I really liked what you said before about that multidirectional education. So there's so much learning that's going back and forward and being open to those opportunities is, I think, what's gotten you this far and realizing that it's okay to make mistakes and to develop newer evidence based on feedback and real changes that you've been able to see. and I guess what I'm hearing is for other social workers or aspirational social workers to just be open to different types of work experience because it all uses those values and those approaches and

all the skills that we've learned in our training to be able to apply it to something really quite interesting where you can see that you're making an impact. Thanks. That's a nice summary and I guess just yeah keeping in mind that you'd be surprised where a social work degree can land you, I guess. I certainly have been and really grateful for that because it has been a foundational piece in my learning. And so even if you do start a degree and you find that the practice side is not working for you, or vice versa, you might hate the research and macro side. So I guess it's just about finding ways to use the skills depending how they land for you and what resonates with you on the journey.

and not being afraid to reach out to social workers and just say, hey, what do you do? Why do you do it? I actually, I have a student at the moment doing her placement with me. And as part of that, I wanted to introduce her to different parts of the business where I work. And one of the teams that we spoke with this morning was our complaints section. And the person who we were meeting with, when I identified my social work student, she said, oh, I'm a social worker as well. I just, I had no idea. We're hiding everywhere. And I think it kind of demonstrates really well that, yeah, we just have so many things to offer so many different areas of business, organization, multifunctional teams. So yeah, I love that the work is out there for you and that you've

been able to develop it into what seems like a really good direction for you personally. Thanks. Yeah, and you're so right. I've been very grateful for the social work hat in that sense. in that, yeah, I've made some great friends along the way, and you would be surprised sort of talking to people and then finding that they've studied social work at some point in their career. Even people in research and policy, or I've got a close friend I met on placement, and he's been a great sense check as we've kind of jumped into different roles.

And, yeah, I think hold on to the colleagues and people you meet along the way because you'd be surprised how they can help you, even if it's just to validate your approach along the way. Is there anything else before we finish up that you wanted to talk about, whether it's your experience of working overseas or your experience in social work in general? Yeah, no, I think that's everything. Just, yeah, thank you for, yeah, the time and for listening to my story. And I guess, yeah, what I love so much about these is that we do get to hear a variety of

experiences. And I think there is no one way. And they'll no doubt, you know, I'm sure listening to these. it can all sound really easy, but that's not to deny that there are challenges along the way. It's just kind of about finding your way through them. And that's okay if you face them. They will no doubt arise when you least expect it. But yeah.

It all helps us grow and develop as professionals and as people. Yeah. Thank you so much again for your time. Really appreciate talking to you. And yeah, I think it's broadened at least my perception of what social work can be. and hopefully encouraged, motivated a few other people to look at remote work or overseas work and the opportunities that that got bring for them.

Thanks, thanks so much. Thanks for having me and your, yeah, insightful questions. Thanks for joining me this week. If you would like to continue this discussion or ask anything of either myself or Alyssa, please visit my anchor page at anchor.fm slash social work spotlight. You can find me on Facebook, Instagram, Instagram and Twitter, or you can email SW Spotlight Podcast at gmail.com.

I'd love to hear from you. Please also let me know if there is a particular topic you'd like to discuss, or if you or another person you know would like to be featured on the show. Next episode's guest is Jerome, who has worked in Sydney's mental health inpatient units, community mental health teams. He is currently the senior social worker at the Forensic Hospital, a high secure mental health facility on the Long Bay Correctional Center Camp. I release a new episode every two weeks. Please subscribe to my podcast so you'll notify when

this next episode is available. See you next time.