Social Work Spotlight - Episode 6: Rosanna

Episode Date: June 26, 2020

In this episode, Rosanna and I discuss her work experience in the disability, health and welfare sectors with a strong commitment in human rights, and current position as a Coordinator at Lifetime Care and Support at icare. She has worked in a number of agencies providing either direct client work (for Royal Rehabilitation Centre Sydney), adult guardianship (for the Office of the Public Guardian), disability-related advice (for the NSW Trustee and Guardian), and as a branch manager (for the NSW Home Care Service).Rosanna enjoys working closely with people with a disability who have high support needs and their families, allied health and medical professionals, government and non-government organisations, legal professionals, peak organisations and service providers.Links to resources mentioned in this week’s episode:Royal Rehab Sydney – https://www.royalrehab.com.au/Lifetime Care & Support program, icare – https://www.icare.nsw.gov.au/injured-or-ill-people/motor-accident-injuries/who-we-care-forNSW Trustee & Guardian – https://www.tag.nsw.gov.au/Australian Unity (formerly Home Care Service of NSW) – https://www.australianunity.com.au/assisted-living/whats-on/resources/home-care-NSWOffice of the Public Guardian – https://www.publicguardian.justice.nsw.gov.au/This episode's transcript can be viewed here:https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MvAUXStLt-OuaRfSBoTBYLOtp6_Saxxr/view?usp=sharingThanks to Kevin Macleod of incompetech.com for our theme music.

Hi and welcome to Social Work Spotlight where I showcase different areas of the profession each episode. I'm your host, Yasmin McKee Wright, and today's guest is Rosanna. Rosanna is a first-generation migrant coming to Australia as a teenager with her family that included her paternal grandmother, parents and five children. She obtained her social work and rehabilitation counselling qualifications in Sydney for free under the Whitlam Government Free University Education Reforms. She has over 30 years of working in the disability, health and welfare sector with a strong commitment in human rights and currently works as a coordinator at Lifetime Care and Support at ICare. She has worked in a number of agencies providing either direct client work for Royal Rehabilitation Centre, Sydney, adult guardianship for the Office of the Public Guardian, disability-related advice for the New South Wales Trustee and Guardian, and as a branch manager for New South Wales Home Care Service. Rosanna has worked closely with people with a disability who have high support needs and their families,

allied health and medical professionals, government and non-government organizations, legal professionals, peak organizations and service providers. Thank you again so much for taking the time and for joining me on the podcast. I'm really happy to have you join me. Thank you for having me. I guess I'll begin by asking you when you say, started working as a social worker and why you chose this career. It's interesting because in social work job, in sex, one.

It's also a span of about more than 30 years now in the industry. Only one job, only one job, and that's my second job, which is at Royal Rehabilitation Centre, Sydney. at the time it was actually called Royal Rights Rehabilitation Centre and that has been my only social work job okay and when you say it's your only social work job do you mean it was the only one that was advertised as such well as such and also it was the only one that title was social worker

yeah so which is interesting however Nevertheless, all my other jobs, I do have to use my social work knowledge, skills, heavily based on my social work qualification. Okay. Have you always been a social worker, or is there something you've come to a bit later in life? That's my first degree, and then instead, I actually gave up my first job, which was at home care, home care service of New South Wales. that in 1998 I actually gave up that job and I returned to study, which at the time it wasn't a degree course,

it was only a graduate diploma in Rehabilitation Council. So I took one year off to do rehabilitation counseling, and then I got my social work job at Royal Rehabilitation Center. So, yeah, so that was my first degree, but then I have gained Rehabilitation Counsel. because at the time I was so more interested in rehabilitation. And how long did you work at Royal Rehab? Yeah, and I worked in, so after the rehab counselling, after I finished the rehab counselling course, the reason why I applied for a social work job at Royal Rehab is because it's all just about

rehabilitation and more sort of akin to my, because rehabilitation counselling has a focus of more about vocational rehabilitation rather than rehabilitation as a holistic entity. And that just didn't sit with me well and it still doesn't sit with me well. I'm not good at vocational rehabilitation counselling. And hence I actually specifically apply. for the social work job at Royal Rehabilitation Centre. To me, you know, it has a little wider focus other than the vocational focus.

Mm-hmm. And do you feel that you've brought bits of both professions to your current role, or do you feel like it's more one another? No, definitely. I think that there is a continuum in terms of applying my work experience, my study, meaning the degree, yeah, what I learned from there. It has been a continuum, and I would broaden it to say that it's not just the rehabilitation industry.

It's really more the health, the disability community as well as rehabilitation, so the welfare, welfare, health, disability field. So my career path has been far broader than just rehabilitation. It sounds like you've had some really interesting and varied experience. Is there a point at which you felt that this was really the right fit for you, this career path? I ever suppose as I am approaching closer and closer to thinking about, retirement or semi-retirement, I am spending increasingly more time to say, do you want to stay, you know, within that boundary, which, you know, in fairness, it's broad enough. Or is there

something else that you need to pursue when you still got, you know, the energy, the time, the cognitive ability. And I'm thinking more, it's not, you know, broadening that boundaries, but more, you know, moving to something else. But the funny thing is, you know, if not this, then what else is out there for me that will give me the same satisfaction if not, you know, more satisfaction. So increasingly I am asking myself that question,

which I don't have an answer as yet. Other than I have to say that I am, which is probably still more, it's about pushing the boundaries rather than moving out of, you know, it's a completely different area at all, it's more about maybe spending more time doing, you know, doing advocacy work or a more community base, you know, spending more time improving my own, my personal local community, and whether it is in a paid capacity or not, it's certainly something that I am also contemplating but you know I think there is another side of me to say

well you're up to other challenges you know which I feel that I am but what are they and is your desire to as you suggested give back to your community or do some work locally fueled by any need that you've identified probably I don't know why I have this other than I am more settled now in one particular community, whereas I have had also, apart from work, I had almost like a full-time capacity in caring for my parents. And so I haven't been living in my own community for quite a number of years.

And so you don't feel as settled and you don't feel as belong when your frame of mind is that this is only temporary, but now that both my parents are gone, you know, I have moved back to my own home and I feel settled and I feel that this is my community now. And I suppose that prompted me to think that, well, you know, I need to know a lot more about my community, my local community. I need to be part of it. I need to be, if able, then I would certainly like to contribute and, yeah, and do a little bit more work in it. my own local community. So more tangible, you know, and people are more able to sort of say,

yes, I can do something about it. But as I said, there is also the other part of me to say, well, maybe there are other challenges out there that I need to, you know, because it's still a comfort zone for me. Becoming more family or doing a little bit more in my own local community, it's still a comfort zone for me. And it sounds like you're feeling not quite done yet. There's still something else that you want to accomplish.

I think it is a state of mind that I would encourage everybody to hold. It doesn't matter whether I'm holding a pay job or not pay job. I think that should be part and part of our existence, that we still pursue things and not say, well, that's it for me. There is no end to learning. There is no end to, for me anyway, I really think that I have still got a lot to learn, a lot to experience and more importantly

is that it's about I have got everyone from all the opportunities all the more that whilst I'm able to that I should it's a time to focus on giving rather than taking even though taking is still

a very important part for me anyway and I don't think that will ever go the need to learn the need to be challenged and I think that will ever go but, you know, to refocus, they, you know, give a little bit more. It's more important. Yeah, it's about the place of my life.

I hope that I will be able to keep this going without feeling one day that that's it, you know. Don't come near me. Yeah. I know that at the moment there is nothing typical about our work and how we do our work, especially remotely. But are you able to tell me about your current role? what a typical day might be like for you. I'm going to Lifetime Care or I Care in 2018 after I took a year off from the job before,

which I was actually with the municipal trust and guardian as a disability advisor, and I took a year off. And then I got this job, which is a temporary job and it is still temporary, in 2018 as a coordinator for lifetime care. Life-time care is a funder, essentially, providing funding for injury-related, medical treatment, rehabilitation, and also maintenance, because it's lifetime. Once you're accepted as a participant, it's for life.

And my job is a bit of a hybrid. Essentially, we are funders, so we basically look at requests and decide whether it is injury-related or not, and if it is, then the approval is based on the number. needs of the participant and also whether it is injury related or not. When I say that it is hybrid, it is not an office job, whereas I know that I have worked in other areas where it can be very much a desk job. So it is hybrid in a sense that I do go out to meet my participants. I do keep in touch with them by phone, by emails, by text. And I also attend case conferences, meetings, support.

that sort of thing. So there is quite a bit of face-to-face direct work. Highbridge also in the sense that there are times that as a funder, we also contract providers, particularly case managers, to pull things together for us and basically send us the paperwork, the request to say, well, this is what so-and-so, you know, participant A needs and are you going to fund it or you're not going to fund it? Although there are times that our participant might not require a case manager or has opted to say, I don't need a case manager anymore, so we have a lot more direct work with them. So we're not just a desk worker, high volume in a sense that you are really dealing with

sometimes it can be when we're talking about attending care. We would like things to be planned, but our participant's life doesn't work that way. There are times that you're dealing with crisis or, you know, emergencies or urgent matters, where you do have to drop everything and attend to it and get it done. Sometimes you need to be good with time management, dealing with difficult situations, crisis situations. And like every single job, you know, people's lives are not smooth, and therefore you need to be able to sort of deal with good times and difficult times.

A portion of my time is the minister of this as well, getting the approvals and then to deal with invoices from different providers as a funder. We pay for services that we approve. So there is that side of things that you do get used to it. Initially, it was a little bit of a culture shock for me. It would be good if the proportion between the context was getting to know the participants and the time spent in getting approvals done and the time spending the payment side of things,

I do hope to keep the time for processing invoices to a minimum. So that's the downside of the job before the virus. But working from home, I must say it's not my preferred option. I'd like to keep my personal life and my work life very separate, and that has been a challenge for me. So I had a difficult time of adjusting to it in the first week, second week, but now, you know, it's okay. Things are working for me. I just had my supervision this morning and I would say to my team leader that now it's fine. If there is a choice, I would

like to work in an office, but if the direction is that you need to continue to work from home, it's no longer an issue for me. The challenge still remains to be, I don't have the luxury of having people, you know, having people, you know, surrounded by people in an office environment, in an office environment, whereby I said, it's for the social side of things.

It's also for the prompting, you know, that I can actually get my job done much quicker in an office environment because I've got all these people around me. So all I need to say is, oh, you know, does anybody remember this? And rest assured that there will be someone, you know,

saying, I know, you know, but now because I'm more relying on my own personal resources and what's available to me, you know, from the system that I need to spend a bit more time. I can't just send an email out and say, oh, hey, you know, what about, what about this, what about that? I need to sort of get into the system and find out for myself. And maybe it should be the case right from the beginning. And also the prompt about, I need to have more discipline working from home. Taking breaks and all the things whereas, you know, at work,

I will have, you know, prompts my colleagues, you know, where they would say, resented I thought, you know, half an hour ago you said you're going to have a break and go for a walk. But how come you are still here? It's okay, I'm not complaining. It sounds like you've done a great job of adapting in a very uncertain environment. and you've kind of taken the positives out of it, even though there are really some negatives.

What's the main thing you think you've learned from this whole process? So many things that I learn, I suppose, that it's doable, that is how do you maintain that social connection now that you are virtually on your own? I even have a regular, what we call a virtual coffee break with one of my colleagues. We've been sort of saying that we miss each other, the presence of each other. And then we decided that we will have this virtual coffee chat once a week for 15 minutes for a quarter of an hour. So you find ways to be connected. Increasingly, I'm getting more calls from my colleagues.

We have been using quite a lot of emails or Skype chat. For the last two weeks, including this week, I find that we are calling each other more. Maybe it's just a way to stay connected that you talk to each other, yeah, on the phone maybe. So maintaining that connection with your team members has been really important. Yeah, well, yes, even talking to providers, we are sharing our experience. I was talking to someone, a provider the other day and she was very much likely not keen to work from home. And she got to a point where she said for the past few days, I get to a point where I don't even bother to change my dinner into my day clock. Oh no.

It has changed the way where I work anyway. and it's good that you are still able to speak to each other. It doesn't matter whether it is family members, your colleagues, your ex-colleagues, and your colleagues, whether it is your work colleagues or your colleagues that are contractors. You're still able to talk about that experience. And like you said, I actually found the thing on the causatives, helps me a lot because I stop winging now.

I hope I haven't winch. It must be nice getting to know some of the providers a bit more personally as well, not just on a professional level. I think that would probably help your interactions, your collaboration with them in the future. For sure. The restriction has given us the permission to, like you said, to talk a bit more about the experience,

whereas in the past I am someone who is there in, you know, I like to stick to the, you know, why are you ringing me? You know, that would be something to do with a participant, not about, you know, whether you are in work clothes. Yeah, the inappropriate has become appropriate. Right. That's so good. You know, apart from all the COVID restrictions,

how does this role compare to others that you've been part of in terms of, say, size, funding, collaboration between team members? Well, my job was, as I said, with HomeCare Services of New South Wales, and basically I am interacting with, you know, there was a very high percentage of people who are not professionals, you know, who doesn't have professional background. And therefore, it is different, you know, because you need to pitch your discussions, your conversations, at a different level, because you don't have.

have common grounds. And then, you know, at raw rehab, again, it is still at the time a very medically oriented, even though we were pushing to have more an allied health focus because rehabilitation is not about medicine alone. It's an interesting time, so I have a lot of opportunities to work very closely with occupational therapists, speech pathologists. So that was also an interesting time where we do have common grounds, a lot of common goals. And then my first job in fact was with the Office of the Public Guardian. And interestingly enough, apart from my job at Royal Rehab, all the other positions has a decision-making component in it. The Office of the Public Guardian, I was working as the Sydney Guardian, and it's about making decisions.

and at the time we call them substitute decision-making, which now has changed to support decision-making. And again, at the time, I was sort of working very, very broad-based, dealing with people who have got professional qualifications, but by the same token, you are also working with people who has got no understanding about substitute decision-making. and so you're working with such a broad-based group of people that really was a challenge. The other thing is dealing with difficult situations.

There is also a very strong advocacy component, so it's not just about being a substitute decision-maker, it's also going out there and challenge the, what is it, the established practices because we're basically also dealing with people that are quite disadvantaged, and how do you represent these people and come up with the best outcome for them. So that has been a challenge as well. Same New South First Trusting and Guardian, a lot of people who are under financial management. They are marginalized.

They are often people who are, who everybody has sent no to them. All the doors are close to them. And how do you open these doors again for them? And that certainly has not been an easy journey in every which way. Nevertheless, when you are able to get things done for them, the satisfaction, the personal satisfaction is enormous. So that was trusting Guardian. You hit the point about resources, financial resources,

and that's a huge difference in ICA. in that at this point in time, you're still able to make a difference by way of funding services. Whereas in my other jobs, funding has always been an issue and you are totally reliant on, particularly a new service, a trust and guardian. Even though you are a financial manager, you are still dependent on other funders to provide services. And very few of the Nilselfastrust and Guardian clients have to financial resources to self-fund services. Still talking about a very small percentage of clients who are able to pay for their own way. Otherwise, you are still relying on other funders such as ICare to provide the services,

and that has been also a huge challenge. So the difference in terms of my current job is that the financial resources are there, I suppose in terms of meeting the needs of our participants. than at this point in time, the resources are still there to meet injury-related needs. In my past jobs, a very, very big part of my job is to advocate and, you know, fighting for whatever can be made available to, particularly those who are so, so marginalised, including those who are homeless. Have you worked towards, particularly those who clearly said,

I want to have a home of my own and how do you help them to get there. You know, fortunately, there are good ending stories, but there are still so many that are waiting for somebody to assist them in getting a home, getting the services that they need. What do you think it is about social work in particular that makes your skills or experience a good fit for this role? No, I think the fact that we are certainly being considered as the agent for change. So advocacy was a very, very big part of my social work training.

And speaking up for those who haven't got a voice, it's a very big part. It was also the time of challenging the way we do things. So I have been very lucky I have been actively involved in the whole thing about the institutionalisation about independent living because at the time when I first practiced social work I think that there is still you know the community at large and the government at large is still you know thinking that no no no if you've got a disability you belong to a group home or you belong to a huge institution so we were able to challenge that and say not you know you're wrong and it was sort of the time that we we talk a lot about stigmatization you're being stereotyped

So a big part of our training is also to look at human beings as human beings rather than a group of this, a group of that. So that has certainly shaped my way of thinking and also about looking at a person in a holistic way, which is now has become a very big thing, and rightly so. And I think it is so important in awe of my work. It doesn't matter what sort of work you do that you look at a person in a holistic way, rather than saying that I'm only responsible for the injury-related part of the participant. Everything else is not my problem. Then I don't think you're able to meet someone's needs properly,

whether it is injury-related or not injury-related. If you don't look at them in a holistic way, if you don't see this person, and also the history, you know, where they're not. the person comes from, it's important as well. So I think if you look at someone, you know, in a holistic way, then you also, you know, incorporate their history and, you know, and their aspirations in what do you want for your future, rather than, you know, frozen in a particular period of time and say,

you know, I only care about this part. So I think that the ability to look at someone in a holistic way is most important. What would you say you love most about your job? I really have to say it's about the participants and getting to really know them. And also, I am working with a lovely, lovely team of people. I haven't yet come across a colleague of mine who sort of deliate from this, you know, participant focus, value base and also really lovely people. I think in my previous jobs, I do have to spend a lot of time.

building relationships with my, you know, whether it's internally or externally, relationship building is an area, very big part, you know, in order that you can get your job done. It's actually very easy in my current job because when you have got so, you know, so much common ground already and when people are very participant-focused already, then half of your job is done for you in terms of building relationships. What do you find most challenging about what you do? I suppose it is still, you know, when you look at someone in a holistic way, then, you know, you are really just responsible for a part of their life

and the rest is out of your control and that is difficult for me. I'm just thinking of a participant where it's got nothing to do with, the injury-related part of the needs is everything else that's not working for the person. You know, whether I do have the mandate to be part of that, other things or not, it is still a challenge that the injury-related part of that person's life is well catered for, but, you know, nothing else seems to be working. That's very difficult for me. Do you find it difficult sort of having that backstep a little bit in advocating or you said contracting out to other people who are case managing.

Do you find it difficult stepping back sometimes? No, because that's what I have been used to, being in the background, providing advice. So this job has given me the opportunity to have more time with the participants. But you're right about in terms of direct work, yeah, I know what you're saying. And there are times that you sort of are saying, oh, you know, it's left to me. I could have done it ages ago. Yeah.

Which is not necessarily the case either, you know. I think it's important to remember that. There are times that I said, oh, you know, I wish I could be doing it myself. I think at the end of the day it's about trusting your colleagues as well, you know, those that you're working with. And if you feel that I have a different view, I can have a candid conversation with them.

You know, I want to discuss it. It's not moving. And is there any other ways that we can. do it in order that we can move it along. And I feel okay about doing that. And in fact, something that I like to promote, I actually had a conversation with someone, which was interesting because it was about we're doing it for real, are you doing it just to pacify, you know, to keep people's mouth shut. And I take a completely different view. I said, if we're not doing it for real, we need to be honest enough to have that conversation, rather than leading people

down the garden path, only to say, oh, I have always been doing it, just, to keep you quiet, that's not a goal. Even if it's a goal, it's not good enough a goal for me. It's not consistent with your values. Yeah. And I also think that you are, by doing that, you are really no more than masking why are you doing it. Why can't you be honest enough to say, if I keep doing these,

then I'm only doing it, you know, to keep you quiet. If you don't deal with it, then you are really only going to end up with a much harder conversation. So to me, that integrity and honesty is also important. And it would be so much harder to build trust as well from the participant and the service providers' perspective. That's right, yeah. I think it is important to be honest.

And I can give an example. I inherited a participant where there has been ongoing issues between the participant and the family and the provider. It's been ongoing until one day the case manager and I decided that we need to have a meeting and we got permission and separately, just so that we can understand where they're coming from. But we also got permission to provide feedback to both parties and said, well, this is what the provider said. And to the provider we said, well, this is what the family said. And it is predicated obviously on the two parties, you know, agreeing to to be honest.

with each other as well. And actually, interesting enough, we were able to bring the two parties together, and they ended up with meetings of their own base on what they said to each other, and able to sort of iron things out. And it's been working. The relationship has improved. Things are working. And the conversations haven't been easy, but worth that effort.

And it means that you can go home at the end of the day and know that you've done a good job and that you've made an impact. Well, not necessarily a good job, but the job has been done, and there is a lot of honesty with everybody that you are able to sort of say, well, if you want to improve the relationship, then you need to give permission for us to do it this way. And luckily, you know, we do have willing parties who say, yes, and didn't take offense, what they say about each other. Some of the things are quite unpleasant.

I feel like a lot of the conversations you're used to having in previous roles, roles are going to be difficult conversations. I think it's quite an art to be comfortable and confident in that space. Yeah, and I think it is also important because it is so easy to say I can't do it or I can get my supervisor to do it. But I think that we must accept the challenge and do it. And you're absolutely right that only practice would allow you to improve and become more and more confident. One thing that I learned is sometimes you're really basically in the

mediation role that you don't take size. And I think it's important to tell people that I'm not taking science with anyone. You know, I'm the one who is trying to help you to be able to come to some working relationship. I find it very, very useful that way is to stay right in the middle. don't take size. And people do respect you for that. And it's very easy. Even for people who's got cognitive impairments, that honesty and integrity, they do get it. Even those, you know, that are considered not having any insight, are able to reach you. But take the challenge, you know, because it's so easy, particularly when you do have very supportive supervisors or team leaders. It is so easy to say you do it, you know, I don't want to do it. But if you really, really want to

sharpen your skills, your confidence, then take the challenge. But I must say, do a lot of preparation work. I don't take my chances. I don't walk in without my information. I don't walk in without thinking. And if it's going to be a difficult one, I would rehearse it with, in this case, I do have a team leader. If I feel that I'm going to have a very difficult situation, I will rehearse it with someone. And in this case, it will be my team leader. I don't take my chances.

Planning and preparing is a key to getting positive outcomes. And also having the support from your supervisor, from your team leader, in the first place to feel trusted to carry out what you've tested. And not only that, it's also, sometimes I think we forget and we think that it's about ourselves. I think it's always important to remember that this is not about ourselves, not about my success or my personal failures. It is actually about a participant that has got a lifelong relationship with eye care or lifetime care. And you mustn't do it alone. I think people forget that social workers are really just human.

and it's so easy for us to be affected by so many things. Yeah. You deal with so many difficult concepts and difficult scenarios every day, other than what you've mentioned with your regular peer support or team support or seeking supervision and that sort of thing. How do you get through that? How do you make it possible to make those difficult decisions on a personal level? I suppose it still goes back to, I always ask myself a question.

And as much as I hated, I do have peers that I know if I go and consult, I know what they're going to say to me. They're going to say things that I'm not going to like. I know that. But I do it. I do it because that is the most important part of it, is to be able to hear opposing voices and opinions. It is an art, but it is also.

your conscience. For me, it's like once I do that, then at a personal level, I feel that I have done everything and the outcome is no longer in my control. I have got this particular lifelong. Well, she's my friend now, although we, you know, she was my colleague, through different capacities. And she knows that she is my conscience because when I go to her and paint a scenario to her. I said, I know that you're going to give me some very, very negative comments. But I said, don't for a minute think that I don't value it. I do value it.

I do think I might walk away and say, you don't understand what I'm trying to do, you know, because I don't want people to also stop giving me something that is different to what I like to hear. You know, sometimes we do, when someone comes to you, you do adjust and do want to make it sound okay or try to give advice because you don't want to hurt the person. So I think sometimes it's also important to collect friends that are able to not give you advice or opinions based on not wanting to hurt you or based on, I think this is what Rosanna likes to hear. So therefore, I think it is important to one, collect. friends that are okay to give you a different view and I think that you need to sort of adjust yourself if you can ask for advice then it doesn't matter whether they are in line with what

you're thinking or you're not thinking you need to give serious consideration to why this person said something that is different so you're not seeking validation you're seeking perspective that's right and so for me particularly you know when when they are very difficult. I remember I actually was in a group of ex-colleagues and it was about a complaint matter and I mentioned it to them and they were so different. Their advice was so different to what I did. They were very frank people and they said I disagree with you. There was a woman where I said oh dear oh no you started to doubt yourself but you calm down and you think about their rationale for why they would handle it differently.

a lot to learn from there and indeed I'm going to do it differently if I ever come across a similar complaint again. Coming back to your question, my peace of mind is very much based on having a clear conscience that I have done everything that I can think of at that point in time because we live and learn. I think the world changes and therefore it's okay to say that if I have been given a second chance I would have done it this way rather than that way rather than to sort of penalise itself and say you are no course of you're hopeless I would never see myself that way it's so challenging though when you're dealing with people and and different personalities and you're dealing with families and other support networks

you could make different decisions at exactly the same time and the outcome could be the same in the same way you could make the same decision over different periods of time and the outcome could be completely different. So there are so many variables and what I'm hearing from you discussing the way that you work and how you like to manage challenges or working with different people is you really like to get information about what all the perspectives are, all the variables in a scenario, and just try to make the best decision you can based on that information you have. And everything else is not under your control.

No. And listening, you know, I think the other big thing, being social workers in particular, we're fairly articulate people and we are able to speak up for ourselves. But, you know, I think the flip side is sometimes you forget. There are times that you must listen. That goes back to the preparing and the planning before you meet people. Sometimes I do have to factor that into it, you know, and consciously remind myself that you must listen.

and, you know, don't forget that sometimes you do get carried away. And this is why the planning and preparation work is so important. I know that you're still uncertain about your career, your future, where you might head to from here, but what would you consider a typical path or other opportunities might be like for you in this field specifically? And the reason why I am, I haven't opted to go for a permanent job,

is for the very reason that I don't want to close the door. And I am a very loyal person. If I go for a permanent job, I am not that sort of person that would say tough luck. The challenges suddenly appear and therefore I need to say goodbye to you. If I make a commitment to do a permanent job, then my personal preference is that I would stay there for at least in three to four years, if not longer.

And if you look at my work history, I do stay in a one-year-old. job for long periods of time. The reason why I didn't go for a permanent job with I care is for that reason. I don't want to let people down and I want to keep that door open in terms of maybe out of the blue I can see. I was the same with I care. In fact, you know, after I took that year off, that was the first job that came out of, and I only look into the ethical jobs website now. I don't look for anything else. It was the first job that popped up. So faith sometimes has a bit to do with, I guess, my career partner as well. Yeah.

So I remain, I hasn't changed my decision, I suppose, if there is anything temporary within I care, happy to work for a little bit longer until that challenge, that door suddenly appears. But if there is nothing, you know, nothing temporary, I'm happy to take a break and give myself, you know, that full time to contemplate on what's next. Yeah. I have to say that I have been very, very lucky. The reason why I stay for such a long period of time for every job that I worked in

is because of the job satisfaction is the ability, the opportunity to learn to grow as a person, not just as a social worker. I have no complaint about my social work-related work life. And I remember a social worker in my very early career. She said, if not for social work, you would be such a different person. And she means everyone with a social worker qualification. And she is so right, so right. The qualification is not just helping us to work as a social worker

or as social work-related jobs. but it has also helped us to develop as a person, and I value that, and I am very grateful for that. Have you worked anywhere else other than Sydney as a social worker? No, always in Sydney. Okay. I was just curious as to whether you had some international experience. No, I was contemplating. I came from Hong Kong.

I was born in Hong Kong. There was a time that I was thinking of working there. But I think the jobs that I had been in stopped me because I was getting so much satisfaction out of the different jobs. Have you seen any changes in social work over the time that you've been working? I might be wrong, but the number of social workers that I have encountered, they seem to be moving away from the really direct work, the more face-to-face hands-on work. I don't hear social workers talking about being the agent of change anymore.

Unlike, say, in Hong Kong or in Taiwan, interesting enough, particularly in politics, social workers play a very, very critical role. And if there is a violation of human rights, the first person the media will go to for comments would be a social worker. I think in Australia, if they are prominent, in an idiot sometimes for the wrong reasons. Social workers do play a very different role in... In different parts of the world.

Yeah, yeah. And I also, more recent times I have met, you know, wonderful social workers where you sort of saying, I don't know. But then isn't that the case for every profession? There are times that I do sort of wonder, you know, about an occupational therapist and said that, you know, I can't see any occupational therapist in the training in you. But I certainly find that advocacy role is deriding in social work anyway.

But I could be wrong, you know, what do I know about social work? Quite a lot, it seems. Isn't that the case in general anyway, you look at how often do we, in my times, in the 80s and 90s, the number of times that I'm out there, protesting, you would be amazed, but how often do we go and protest? I do have some rethinking about negotiations and mediation, and so we are more into, let's sit down and talk, and we are more into compromise than change. And I think that it is a global thing. If you go out to protest, the agenda is loud and clear. It's interesting. You've just made me think of

the move away from potentially more traditional advocacy and policy development work. And I wonder whether that's got something to do with the shift towards activity-based funding, especially in health departments, where continuing increases in health costs and budgetary constraints are unsustainable. And there's only a finite amount of money that can be spent on health. So strategies have been developed to make each health dollar go further. And that presents an ideal solution according to, health systems where there's a system that is patient-centered, costs less, drives efficiency, and improves clinical practice. But often that means you are spending less time with one person,

or you're spending more time in admin and documenting to show that you're doing the good work. And that takes away from all the other stuff that you might have done, which was behind the scenes, which you can't claim as a hospital, as a health service, as a community provider. Yeah, you are so right. And because it's about it's risk management. Why are we having more and more paperwork? And that's because of the risk management. Because we have become so risk averse that to me, again, you move away from, you know,

making a real change to, you know, I want to make sure that something goes wrong, that I am covered. The ticker box has become more important than the person per se, despite the fact that we kept saying person, send a person sent. There are times that I sort of say I can't see how this can be person-send. Yeah. And you are absolutely right about there are limited resources and it's going to be harder and harder, but the more reason why we need to speak up and say why not. I was saying to you that I had a supervision session with my team leader this morning. And one thing I mentioned to him about a particular participant of mine, someone who is in her 80s and she has opted to move out of a nursing home,

she lived on her own. The risk is actually a life and death risk we are talking about. We could have taken the risk adverse approach and say, you can't live on your own because it's life and death. can't take that responsibility. You can't take the responsibility for yourself either. However, in conjunction with the participant and her family, we were able to say why not. And she herself sort of said, be it, you know, I would rather die happy in my own home than dying miserably in, or living miserably in a nursing home. And here, what, in 2020, April approaching

made, she is still well and alive even though she is still living every day with this life and death risk. We should continue to ask that question. The question should be why not rather than we can't do it. Yeah. And the fact that everyone else around her was prepared to acknowledge that risk. Absolutely. And that's what she wanted. And you also have to put yourself in her position and go, if it was me or if it was my mother, what would I want for them? And if I had the resources available to me, why not? That's what you're saying. Exactly.

If not for IKEA, we're talking about a support program that is huge. But we collectively, she certainly see it as us having made the right decision for her. Every time when I go out to see her, you should see she has constantly. consistently expressed the will to remain in her own home. And he also said something about ageism. We could have easily said, no, we can't support you because of your age. Are there any types of, or any areas of social work that you would never be interested in working in? No, although, you know, if you look at all my jobs, it's basically about disability and about disadvantaged people.

I do have a preference, as I said, but it doesn't mean that, you know, I won't consider other types of social work. In your role, is there any opportunity to participate in any projects or other programs? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, because from time to time, as you know, we do have a lot of specialist units within Icare. And from time to time, there are job opportunities that comes up. So, yeah, the opportunities are there. And what would they look like? I remember they were recruiting people to, you know, work in the efficacy area within eye care,

attendant care, case management, yeah, just all sorts. And if people were interested in knowing a little bit more about this area of practice, where would you direct them? When I apply for the job, I spend a lot of time reading. There is a lot of information in the work. website and very useful information. So and even to be very honest, even if you are not interested in a job in terms of information, you can go into the website and get information that is going to be helpful in other jobs, you know, that you are in. So, you know, if you go into look at the

information, it's not just about I care because a lot of the information there can be applied. in other work settings and in other work capacities. So that translatability is quite obvious. Yeah. And I have no doubt that you, if there is a name in the website, I care is just full of nice people. So if out of the blue someone called me and said, I saw your name and I wonder whether you can tell me about this and about that.

I'm not going to say, no, go away. I'm not the right person unless it's about, you know, more specific things about I care that I don't have any authority to represent and I would make it clear. Let me ask around and get back to you. You would find out who the right person is. That's right, exactly. Yeah.

Is there anything else that you'd like to say to social workers or potential social workers out there about your experience? I think I just want to reiterate that I don't regret having done social work and I am very proud of telling people that I have got social work qualification, whether I am working as a social worker or not. I am truly proud of that. And I have also met so many lovely, lovely, competent social workers and social workers

who are, you know, who are far more, who does a far better job than me. Yeah, so we should be proud of that, and we should be promoting that. It's a good career to embark on if you're thinking about it. However, if you're trying to look for a comfortable, easygoing job, then it's not for you. You need to be up for the challenge.

How many people, when you tell them you're a social worker, I have no idea what you're talking about? My mum. My late-month were into what it was like when I first started in social work. Very few people have some sense, but you still get people to say, ah, it's not you're supposed to help, you know, but you're not helping.

Yeah. And I guess your response would be different based on who you're talking to because, you know, someone might say in 20 words or less, what does a social worker do? But it's not going to mean anything unless you've got context for it. Yeah. And also, I think you still come across people who consider you as a do-goodest. I think the social work profession has still got a long way to go in terms of promoting the awareness about, you know, what we do. Nevertheless, the good news is when they're in trouble, they do think of a social worker.

You know, very few would think of a psychologist first. You know, that's something my experience, you know, that I still get calls once every now and then and say, oh, you know, I know that you're a social worker and, you know, I wonder whether you can tell me about this and about that, you know. So that's the positive thing, that we have a role in society. We do have a role in supporting people in making changes still. I think we do have that ability to do so even though I feel that it is dwindling and shrinking, but the potential is there. You're incredibly brave for going out of your comfort zone and for having a chat with me.

I'm really glad you could be part of this. It's been incredibly inspiring and just the way that you go about your work and that constant reminded to yourself of what am I doing here? What is my role? What is most important to me? And how do I best meet the needs of the person? How do I listen to what they need and respond to that within the parameters that I have? I think that's what we should all be aspiring to do. Thank you for saying that. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. It won't be that long, I'm sure. Okay. Yeah. Bye-bye. Bye. Thanks as always for joining me on this journey.

If you would like to continue this discussion or ask anything of either myself or Rosanna, please visit my anchor page at anchor.fm slash social work spotlight. You can find me on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter, or you can email SW Spotlight Podcast at gmail.com. I'd love to hear from you. Please also let me know if there is a particular topic you'd like discussed, or if you or another person you know would like to be featured on the show. next episode's guest is Sophie.

Sophie's day-to-day work includes psychosocial assessment, triage and crisis response, risk assessment, safety planning and coordination of a forensic medical and general medical responses to adults and children impacted by sexual assault and management of acute and non-acute referrals to a Northern New South Wales local health service. Over the years, Sophie has developed a non-clinical portfolio in professional education and training in the violence, abuse and neglect space and has recently completed quality improvement projects around improving clinical responses to adults abused as children and streamlining interagency pathways to the recent expansion of joint referral unit criteria for child sexual assault matters. I release a new episode every two weeks. Please subscribe to

my podcast so you are notified when this next episode is available. See you next time.