Social Work Spotlight - Episode 68: Emma

Episode Date: October 14, 2022

In this episode I speak with Emma, a social worker and youth worker who achieved accreditation as a Mental Health Social Worker while working at Headspace. Emma has expertise in a range of trauma informed therapeutic interventions including work with disordered eating associated with ADHD, the impact of CPTSD in ADHD, and the comorbidities of anxiety, depression and burnout. She has a passion for work in reframing and healing from shame associated with ADHD.Links to resources mentioned in this week’s episode:Blue Knot Foundation training - https://professionals.blueknot.org.au/professional-development-training/The Divergent Edge - https://www.thedivergentedge.com.au/Smiling Mind mindfulness apps - https://www.smilingmind.com.au/Ninja Focus mindfulness app - https://www.ninjafocus.com/Suicide Prevention Resource Centre (ASIST) - https://www.sprc.org/resources-programs/applied-suicide-intervention-skills-training-asistDV-alert training - https://www.dvalert.org.au/ADDitude magazine - https://www.additudemag.com/Love Bites respectful relationships program - https://www.napcan.org.au/Programs/love-bites/Emotional Freedom Technqiues (EFT) Australia - https://eftinternational.org/eft-australia/Mental Health First Aid - https://mhfa.com.au/Mental Health Academy - https://www.mentalhealthacademy.com.au/This episode's transcript can be viewed here:https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zB3xlRIbstNzaa0MPqqKqnHL5nArlxPYgY1aNFDdfJc/edit?usp=sharingThanks to Kevin Macleod of incompetech.com for our theme music.

Hi, and welcome to Social Work Spotlight, where I showcase different areas of the profession each episode. I'm your host, Yasmin McKee Wright, and today's guest is Emma, a social worker and youth worker who achieved accreditation as a mental health social worker while working at Headspace. Emma has expertise in a range of trauma-informed therapeutic interventions, including work with disordered eating associated with ADHD, the impact of C-Pt, PTSD in ADHD, and the comorbidities of anxiety, depression and burnout. She has a passion for work in reframing and healing from shame associated with ADHD. Thanks Emma for meeting with me today. I'm really glad to have a chat with you about your experience in social work so far. No worries. I'm excited to be here. I always ask when you started as a social worker and what drew you to the profession? How did it all begin? So I started working as a social worker post my degree in 2015, start of 2015. But yeah, my pathway to social

work, I didn't know what a social worker was when I was in high school. Didn't really know what I wanted to do either. And so it was just kind of cruising through high school, not loving it, actually hating it. Hating school, I have ADHD and was undiagnosed. I also am dyslexic and was undiagnosed. So school was not really built for me and I was pretty keen to get out. I didn't think I'd be going to uni. And so I ended up when I left school looking around at a few things and I'm always interested in people and why we do things we do. Mental health was a big passion of mine and emotions and understanding emotions and I was a bit of a nerd in that. And I found youth work at TAFE. I loved it. Started doing that. And,

just loved it. I had a teacher who was social work trained and just clicked with her. And because I, for the first time, had a passion for what I was learning, I was actually doing really well at it. So, as I've learned and understanding ADHD more, we're passion driven. And so school didn't really have anything that was remotely social work related that I could do. So, yeah, when I saw her and the knowledge that she had. I was like, I want to learn more. I'm not equipped to be doing this just from my certificate. I want to keep learning. I just want to get all the knowledge I can get. I looked into social work. I looked into psychology. And I loved with social work, I looked into like all the subjects. And I was like, yes, love those. I love the diversity of social work. I love the

different people, the different areas you can work in. I love the flexibility and the kind of, I don't need to decide right now where I want to end up. And so I love that. So that's what kind of led me to it. I ended up going to uni as a mature age student after I did TAFE and got in that way. And hard to get through, really hard, melt down every semester. But got through a lot of support from my amazing sister who helps me with my study. And yeah, kind of started.

I was also working in the field at the same time. So I was working in family support. And I'd worked at a youth refuge and I'd worked at preschools and worked a lot with kids. And so I just had been getting little snippets of kind of experience and, yeah, trying to figure out where I wanted to be in that. Yeah. So given that you had all that experience in the background, you'd done the study in youth work and you had a very clear passion but you weren't really sure where it was going to take you. What were your placements and how did that help shape things for you? Yes. I was one of those kind of annoying students that organised their own placements, even though.

Yeah. But I, because I kind of, I thought I knew what I wanted to do. So at the time, I was like, I want to work with families. I want to work with kids. And so my first placement was in family support, but it was very different to the family support I'd worked in. So I didn't want to do the same thing, but it was very different. Because it was different areas, like of Sydney, different demographics, but also the

family support I worked in was more around parent education and case management and financial struggles and just kind of general family support. and then my first placement was almost 100% domestic violence related family support. And so we're running groups for kids and doing court support. And I just got a lot of experience and understanding about the dynamics of domestic violence and identifying it in relationships and families and the impacts on kids. And that really helped as well for my mental health. awareness, which eventually I led into.

My second one was child protection in facts at the time, DCJ now. Yeah, so that one, that gave me a lot of experience, and I really loved doing that, particularly going from family support, which is like the other side, because at family support, they've got quite of a perspective of child protection, and child protection kind of, there's that whole, like, how do we info share, how do we, work together, but you kind of like, everyone wants the same goal, but kind of have different perspectives and different knowledge. And so I really liked working in child protection, understanding how the process works and what goes on behind the scenes that you don't see

in the community. So I think that gave me a really good foundation and made me realize I don't want to work in it. But I very much enjoyed it and very much respect to the workers. and help me to understand how to work well with child protection as well. And so I imagine the family support work would have been trying to focus a little bit more on early intervention, trying not to get it at that crisis stage, and then the second placement being the real child protection, this is crisis management, this is how we deal with things. Very bureaucratic, less flexibility, quite likely.

Yes, yeah, yeah. And you liked more of that early intervention slash postvention, probably of okay, we've hit that crisis point. How do we then help bring back to some sort of level where we can pick up the pieces and really look at what we've learned from the process? Yeah, absolutely. And I think I was in child protection

in a really critical phase where they were introducing that practice first. And so it was really cool to watch that transformation. I mean, I know they're always trying to transform. This is New South Wales, and so trying to kind of improve practices. But it was really interesting to see the changes that were coming in. And it was really cool to be a part of that too. Yeah.

And what was your capacity as a student in that role? Because obviously there's a huge amount of legislative stuff that goes on behind the scenes and you would have a certain delegation of tasks that you could do. But do you feel as though there was some blurring of the lines between student and practitioner, do you feel as though you had enough of an opportunity to learn without being thrown into the deep end? Yes, I had an amazing supervisor. She was really good. She was really passionate about training and really helpful for seeing potential. And I think because I'd done a lot of work in family support and in my work in the youth refuge, I actually worked with some of the kids that

were linked to that exact DCJ. And so at one point she said, sometimes I forget you're not a case manager. And I was like, yes, I don't. I know you do. Yeah. And so it's helpful to have that relationship with your supervisor where you can say, I'm overwhelmed.

This is, and I remember at some point she was saying, okay, so we're bringing in these meetings. I think if you can run this family mediation meeting, we're going to have blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, these people here, these stakeholders here, the whole family is going to be here. I'm going to be talking about what's best. And I was just like, like, okay, okay.

Yep. And I was like, I have anxiety. She's like, okay. All right, we won't do any of that. I was like, thanks. Good on you for speaking up though and not just drowning. Yeah. Well, because it was very tempting to be like,

just pretend you can do it all. But it's not what it's for. It's not what placement's for and it's not helpful for the families as well. And I just, I mean, I probably could have done those things, but just didn't have the capacity because it's a very overwhelming placement. Sure. And placement in itself is quite overwhelming. You're learning to have emotional boundaries.

You're learning to deal with. My first placement in family support, I experienced vicarious trauma for the first time and understanding how to supervisors. I'm so lucky I've had good supervisors. and I know that some people have struggled with having kind of more abstinent or distant supervisors, but I've had some really good ones. And just rather than kind of going, do you think this work is for you? Like kind of actually go, this is you care and that's a good thing.

Let's work at how we can do that and harness it for good and learn to process. And rather than desensitize yourself, like work through what's going on for you. and that was really, really valuable. So having gone through that, I mean, Fax was a whole other kettle of fish. And so it was just a lot. But I think those two quite intense experiences really helped me to learn to go,

okay, I need to care. And I saw desensitized workers. And I was like, I'm not ending up like that. I like that I care, but I needs to be sustainable. Yeah. Yeah. In the community development aspect of the first placement, were there any really neat initiatives or programs that you got to be part of? Yes. We did Love Bites program. So they did in schools. And I ended up later on in my subsequent roles actually kind of running that in my work.

But I was kind of observing as a student, the Love Bites program, I think is still going. Yeah. at the moment, yeah. And so going into schools and getting a bunch of different workers in the community from different organisations for youth or families in general and teaching students about respectful relationships. And so they do kind of a half day on domestic violence or intimate partner violence or family violence and then half the day on sexual assault, consent and sexual abuse and it's amazing it's really hard you've got to be you know so present with the kids and watching for like he might be triggered but oh my gosh I wish we had that when I was in school

you know teaching kids about healthy relationships and respectful relationships is so important so yeah got to be a part of that which was really cool and I also got to observe a lot of parenting groups, but also there was one that was the domestic violence support group, which the first group I was observing in, and then I was able to actually run the second group, which was so cool. And by the end of that group, there was about three or four women that were like, I don't make friends. I'm not here to make friends. And just kind of like really like protective, protective of their trust, understandably.

And as we got through, you just start to see those walls kind of break down to the point where they were meeting up after the group and they were, we all went out to lunch to finish the group. And it was just, that was such a cool moment for me to kind of see the value of groups, which is one of my passions is group work. And so to see like, yes, you can learn this stuff. You can Google this stuff. But to be able to share your experience and have others go, yeah, me too. Or like, oh, that makes sense.

Well, that's really cool. And to value your growth as well to kind of go, oh, I've got something to offer. other people who are going through the same similar situation as me. So I really enjoyed doing that at my placement as well. Yeah, those are such great opportunities as a student because, A, it breaks up your placement and it kind of reduces any sort of monotony that might have been building of the day to day. But it provides so much confidence, at least in my experience of group work as a student of just, I can actually transfer this knowledge and this understanding of how things work to this specific scenario, but also get confidence from feedback from group members of this

is actually really helpful. So yeah, I can't speak highly enough about it. It's funny you mentioned Love Bytes. Just the episode before this with Jasmine. She works in schools and she runs groups with specifically adolescents with behavioral and engagement issues in school. And we were talking about love bites and I've done the facilitator training many, many moons ago. And I think even just doing the training, even if you're not actively running the program, you get that opportunity to network with other agencies in your area that are on the same wavelength and doing similar things.

And you can then refer in and out and you can even just incorporate some of those strategies. in the one-on-one or the other group work that you're doing. Absolutely. I think that that networking was one of my favorite parts, particularly. So I worked in the Bankstown area in a few different roles. And I've worked in lots of different areas, which I love because I'm like, oh, new area, let's like map it out and network and who's around and what services are around. But I've just props to Bankstown.

I love Bankstown and the area there, which is now Canterbury Bankstown, which is a lot bigger, so that changed the dynamics a bit. But I remember the networking there was just next level. The interagencies were so well run. I think the council, there's a lot of credit to the council there. I remember we went to a Stop Domestic Violence Conference. I don't know what year it was, but it was in Canberra that year. So it's in Canberra and there were about six of us from Bankstown,

from all different. there was only one per organization and we recognized each other and we're like, hey, and we all like ate together. We all spoke like about our stuff. It's like we're colleagues working for different organizations and that's exactly what it should be as community workers. I just loved it so much that we were able to share that experience and be like, how are you like, how's that going and how's that going? And we're like, oh, what resources are you going to get? Have you seen there some Luke stuff out there? Like it was just really cool to kind of share that as a network. And I think that's one of my passions as well.

Yeah, you need to find your people. My second placement was in the Canterbury area. Actually, Canterbury City Community Center. And my role as a second placement student was to set up a men shed, which I managed to do by the end of the placement. And just, yeah, these people get paid so little. I feel, I feel so bad because, you know, community roles, I think it's now. other scads, but back then it was the Saks Award. These people are working their butts off and they

deserve more and I just feel like where is the equity here? But you've got to find your people, find your people, build on that combined passion because inevitably that's what gets the results for the people on the ground, which is what you're doing for in the first place. Yeah, I absolutely saw that because you work alongside and so because we've got different roles, we were able to do that shared care kind of stuff so well without having to be like, oh, email this and email that. It was able to be like, we were able to define roles a lot more. So I remember working in mental health and working with benevolent society and brighter futures.

And so we're able to kind of go, what are you working at? What are we working at? And working at where the consent was with what we shared. It was just so much easier when you're like, we get each other and we, know we trust each other. That's the key, I think, learning, like to trust each other that you're, I don't have to kind of dictate to you what to do. I don't have to be like, are you doing the right thing? Are you, do we have the same goals? Do we, are we working with them the same way? Like, we just trust each other because we, we go to conferences together and we talk about our values

and our passions and, you know, what we care about. And so that's, yeah, I loved it. Brilliant. I'm so glad you had. Well, they were both good placements, different challenges, different opportunities that came up, but I'm glad that you had good experiences on both. What other training have you done since graduating? Because you're an accredited mental health social worker. You've done some emotion coaching. How did you find all these other things to study or to learn about and how has that helped you going forward? I'm a training nerd. I'm I love it. I'm always looking for, I'm currently trying to like get my next training up and running. I want to do EFT. That's my new passion right now. Yeah, I think I've just every year,

I'm like, okay, how much is my training budget? All right. Let's plan it out. Let's work it. What am I going to get? What am I going to do? I love going to conferences where you can kind of hear lots of different workers. I think COVID's been really hard because a lot of my training's got cancelled and then everyone's trying to switch to online and be like, no, you can't, you have to do this one face to face. And it's like, do we? Yeah. Like you just got to learn how to do online differently and it's been, that transition has been hard. So I feel like in the past few years, I haven't done as much as I usually would, but been doing a lot of online research instead. So in terms of what I've done, I've done a lot of trauma training in different

areas, so the kind of DV alert. So I really enjoyed that training and a few of the other kind of accredited ones like the mental health first aid and assists the advanced suicide prevention. But I think it depends on what my role is. And I'm very purposeful when we do kind of supervision or performance review because I'm like, I'm a person who's like, these are my goals. blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah and I need someone who's like okay let's just contain them and let's prioritize and so yeah when I'm in a role I kind of use who I'm working with and what I'm like okay I want to know more about that or I want well this is going to be beneficial so I kind of like to tailor it to what I'm doing having said that my goal of becoming an accredited mental

health social worker was a very long goal for me the longest I've worked at anything which is pretty cool and I'm pretty proud of. But throughout that time, I definitely wanted to tailor a lot of my training towards mental health and the focus psychological strategies. And so I've done training on DBT Act, lots of different, you know, the umbrella of CBT under different names. And again, a lot of like the trauma-informed care. So I've loved the training with Blue Not particularly. I love their training. We did an amazing training on trauma-informed working with transgender youth, which I've worked at Headspace for a while and, you know, working with a lot of kids kind of headspace being very open about supporting young people through understanding their

gender identity, gender expression. And so we had a lot of kids coming to us just kind of like wanting help through that journey. So it was really cool to be able to do training that's trauma informed and particularly blue knot and understanding how we can best support young people and their families to understand. And again, being in Bankstown, it was a lot of working with different cultures and religions around gender and sexuality, which was a challenge, but yeah, very worthwhile for the young people. Also very diverse from a socioeconomic perspective. Yes. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So just people's opportunities in the first place would be very different and therefore you know where are they starting from in terms of their health literacy

or understanding of some of those relationship dynamics yeah yeah for sure that's so good so what's your current role where are you working and what kind of things do you do day to day so i'm working at the divergent edge i am a mental health social worker so i do individual therapy with adults and particularly working with neurodivergent population. And so we're a neurodivergent-led organisation, which is my favourite part. And we work with mostly with people with ADHD. We've seen a huge kind of revolution, I guess, and revival of women particularly understanding their neurodivergence.

We've seen that with a lot of autistic women, understanding their brains, because we know that ADHD, autism, dyslexia is just not picked up in girls often. Yeah. It's happening more and more now, which is good. But sadly, through the 80s, 90s, early 2000s just wasn't a thing, you know. And we know that the DSM is kind of written based on research around boys. And so it's a lot about like that hyperactive boy that's naughty and disruptive. and that's sometimes the case. But also I feel sad for those boys because I talk to a lot of the men

who have just told, have these meds because you're naughty. That'll help you focus because you're not listening in class and it's behavior focused. They're not taught about their brains. And so we work a lot around the challenge of being undiagnosed

and the challenge of being diagnosed young as well. And so helping people to understand themselves and I understand their neurodivergence rather than the kind of symptoms of. So a lot of the time we find people are misdiagnosed or their symptoms are diagnosed. So you're diagnosed with anxiety, depression, a lot of the time borderline bipolar, that just doesn't fit right or doesn't sit right with yours. It's like a part of the puzzle but doesn't kind of answer everything. And a lot of people come to us saying,

I've just been to therapist after therapist, I've just, like, I get it. And some of it's been helpful, but it just can't change the things that I want to change. And it just makes sense. When you look at mental health without looking through the lens of ADHD or autism, you just can't do it in the right ways. You know, that whole like, just do meditation, which I'm absolutely all for. But if we don't do it in a way that validates that this is going to be extremely, extremely hard for you.

And we have to, like, reduce the shame around, like, I can't switch my brain off. I'm failing at meditation. I don't want to do it. And I avoid all the things I know that are good for me. And then do things in just a slightly different way in an ADHD-friendly way or an autistic-friendly way, then it may work, but it's just setting yourself off a fail most of the time. So that's what we found mostly with the work that we've found mostly with the work that we do that that kind of validation and that particularly why I said I like the neurodivergent

lead part is because we can go yeah I get it without kind of over disclosing but being able to say we don't work from that place of like I'm the expert you're the helpless or the that paternalistic way it's very much like yes I have a lot of knowledge that I'm going to share with you but also I use it on myself all the time and this journey of recovery or journey of well-being is lifelong. The journey of growth is lifelong. We're not looking for, when am I going to be done with this? Like, we're never done with it. And so we want to model that this journey is forever. You know, we get therapy ourselves and we're always kind of wanting to continue growing and also growth is not linear. It's going to be like this. And so I'm very

passionate about that part of mental health because I don't want people to feel or attack themselves or feel down on themselves when I was going well and then I've stopped doing those things and I'm and then negative negative about themselves rather than like was doing well not doing so great now but I know what works now I remember what works when I was doing well so I know how to get back on that trajectory and I'm never going to be in that lowest dip again because I know what I can do sometimes I can get triggering to be like oh I'm feeling depressed again I'm going to I'm going to be in the pit. It's like, okay, well, you're feeling depressed and that's normal to go through those waves. It doesn't mean you're going to be back there. It means, you know, you can do

the stuff you know how to do and you can make those choices to do something different this time. Yeah, it's a very similar mindset to supporting people with addiction, isn't it? Because it's a lot of that counseling involves acknowledging that, yes, you may have fallen off the bandwagon or you may have not been able to adhere to whatever program or schedule that you are hoping to. But just because you've fallen off doesn't mean you need to stay there and keep doing whatever, I guess perpetuating that issue that might have caused that in the first place. And so just, yes, acknowledging that's fine, that's okay, that's normal. Everyone goes through this.

But as you said, remembering those things. and yes, I do have the capacity because I've done it before. I think that noticing, I'm just remembering my placement in child protection. And my supervisor said, we were talking about something else. I think it was about myself. And she was like, notice without judgment. I remember at the time just being like, what the heck does that mean? Like, how?

How do I notice something without, I just did not get it until like maybe a couple years later? And I was like, aha. And I say it all the time to people now. And especially with the negative thoughts you get, intrusive thoughts, we notice them without judgment. Our behaviours, we can notice them without judgment. Our emotions notice them without judgment because the judgment is what manifests it. It's what gives it power over you rather than you power over it. And so, yeah, that's something I've carried with me a lot through my work in mental health

and through my own work as well because it's something I can very much say to other people. people and then be like, okay, you need to do this work yourself as well. Yeah, yeah. Some of this may sound familiar to some of my listeners if they listen to episode 56 with your fearless leader, Danny, who herself received a diagnosis of ADHD later in life. And it sounds as though that was a similar experience for you. You mentioned that you did have a difficult time jumping into university life after, I guess, the TAFE environment and the supported structure that that might have provided you to a

position where you had to just conform to the norm and university is very much, well, why can't you keep up? How has that, I guess, diagnosis, that realization informed the work that you're really passionate about doing? Oh, so much. Yeah, I think that it's so important to know your brain to understand it well because for me going through uni, I'm going to get sciencey because I get excited about it. But good. So for ADHD is the whole kind of system with our brains, we create dopamine in our gut.

Sometimes they've looked at the kind of the why behind ADHD. Sometimes it's the struggling to produce dopamine or lack of dopamine. It's also how our receptors work. And so we process it. too quick. So our brains are like, which makes sense because always going. And so it goes in and out and we don't retain it. And so we're always seeking dopamine. And if we know that something's not going to give us dopamine, it's not that we don't want to do it, it's that we can't. That was a big realization for me because it's like, oh, why am I so lazy? I'm like, if I was lazy, why would I be

sitting here full of anxiety, but not being able to do anything about it? So the whole classic leaving to the last minute. What we have to do as ADHD is, is we don't have dopamine to start tasks because we're like, if I start this, I'm not going to get any dopamine from until I finish it. And because it's an assignment, I'm not going to finish it in one go. So I know that when I start this, I'm not going to get dopamine. Obviously, this is not a conscious thought, but our body's like, nah, this is not what we need. We need dopamine.

Start scrolling. Start eating. Start cleaning. do something else to get some dopamine. And so what we use instead, what our body does is I know what will get us going, cortisol. So get stressed, adrenaline. We love a challenge. Clean your room before someone gets home.

Clean the whole house before you've got guests coming over. And so we run on adrenaline and cortisol to do things. So that's why last minute works for us because we're like, cortisol of like stressed you're not going to get this in adrenaline of I've got three hours before I've got to turn it in like I've got to smash this out like and so it's really not sustainable especially if you've got multiple things due at once but that's what my uni life was like really wish I understood my brain prior to going to uni but I made it through surprisingly I didn't fail anything.

And I think my, again, my sister, who's been an amazing support to me, was often there to help me edit last minute and be like, can you just read over it? That was me kind of getting through uni is using that kind of adrenaline cortisol. And I think that that worked for me. That worked for me through high school as well.

But the challenge that was my biggest that I did not realize about was dyslexia. because I thought, well, I can do essays, I can write reports, I can read, I can do these things, I just really struggle. And I didn't understand what dyslexia was really, you know, and I think that as I was going through uni, we were like, we were typing. And so we did have spell check. And so I was just like, you know, I didn't kind of think too much about it because I was like, I can fix this. And I'd just be like, give it off to my sister. Edit, all fine. But it's a lot more than that. It's about the way that I've struggled throughout my career with admin work.

Just so much, so much stress around it because it takes me a lot longer to do things than other people. Because as I'm reading, as I've learnt, I have to decode whilst I read it. And so because my brain kind of just like can flip things and like jump sentences. And so I have to read a bit slower and it does take me a lot longer. So therefore kind of writing is similar as well, kind of constructing thoughts, writing them and being able. So I mean, dyslexia presents very differently in lots of people. And so that's why I thought it was just kind of a part of my ADHD until last year I've learned

a bit more about it and understood meds weren't working for that part. Yeah, so that's been really helpful because I can see that in myself. I can see it in other people and I've helped identify it in a lot of. lot of my clients, some who even are gifted and so would not have been picked up for dyslexia because they're gifted and as master it. Yeah. So what I've learned that I had to do as a kid was just learn the rules. Learn the grammar rules, learn the spelling rules, just memorize all the rules, which in English is not always that helpful. Sometimes. The English language is ridiculous. Well, I. So those rules don't always apply 100%. So it just screwed me up a little bit. But that's

kind of what masks it a bit is that I can just like I can read something and go, oh, like I can write something and then instantly go, you spelled that wrong, cross it out, spell it again. But my brain doesn't do that first. So it's really interesting. I find my brain fascinating sometimes. I'm just like, how did you? Why? Why does that happen? You know how to do it, but you just don't, I can't do it. And then I look at it instantly. I'm like, that's not right. So in terms of how that influences my practice is that I can explain to people. You know, people, the myths around ADHD and dyslexia and how that, what we thought it was, or what we think it was, is what society paints the picture of what it is, is not always

what it is. And it's got nothing to do with intelligence. And I think that is what is often, like, thought about. And even people that don't do well at school, which I kind of love, because when I worked with youth, I told them this all the time. And I can say this to my clients as well. And I work with some young people with ADHD, and I'm like, yeah, we've got to find your passion because when you're in the zone, you know the stuff. And like, you're researching stuff's got nothing to do with what you're learning, but you're not dumb.

You're not stupid. You're not lazy or careless. You are intelligent, but you just need to find what you love. And then, man, I'm just researching everything. So that's definitely how, like reducing the shame. So I had to do a lot of work on myself to reduce my own shame around the reading, the writing, the inattentiveness, the hyperactive, the impulsivity. I had to do a lot of work on that.

And I continue to because it doesn't just go away. These are things we've been told like our entire life. They're kind of those core beliefs in our brains that we need to challenge often. And not everyone understands that now even. And so I'm very lucky that I'm in a workplace that is neurodivergent. affirming and understanding as well because I was able to speak with Danny around my dyslexia and what accommodations we can put in place. So we just had to go, okay, well, I've got major strengths because of my dyslexia. And I don't know if you've seen recently on LinkedIn has

added dyslexic thinking as a workplace strength. No, I love that. I very much love it because it really helped me to go, oh, like this is cool. Like there are sort of really big strength. So one of them is strong memory for stories. And I'm like, oh, yes, that makes sense. That, that's a real strength in social work is because that's why I can do that in meetings. And we're like talking about that. I'm like, oh, yeah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, that's what's going on in the life. I do, because working from home, I can take notes and do that at the same time, but I never would take notes in sessions. And I would be, I can remember everything, you know and memory issues you know but strong memory for stories was one of the strengths and I was like

oh that makes sense some of the other things are like that pattern thinking so pattern recognition spatial awareness 3D thinking oh it's so cool I didn't even realize that other people didn't think like that that I can immerse myself in a 3D imagination world and can map things out and memorize things and so that it's a lot of creativity as well and so I'm I mean I'm always coming up with innovative ideas about like can I run this program I run that group but also have those problem solving skills as well so I can kind of go okay yes but here's the things that we need to sort out and those are the things that give me such good strengths in social work but the challenges of that is like suck at note taking in terms of I can do that in session but then like you know

then I've got to refine it and then I've got to like and then I overthink it and then I to be perfecting it rather than just doing what I need to do. Yeah, because it has to make sense to someone else other than you. Yeah, exactly. And then you've got to be like, what's my needs in this and where am I going above and beyond? And can I just do, that's what I've had to do. Right. Okay, I know I can write perfect notes, but I don't have time for that. Write what needs to happen. Right, all the things that need to be written down, write that. And so I've had to work a lot on that the other thing was report writing and so kind of worked around how to do that well in our organisation where I'm not spending three hours on something that someone else could do in

half hour and stressing so much about it and avoiding it and doing everything else but that. And so that's one of my biggest challenges is the admin work and recording things. And so what I've learned in my journey as well is that job descriptions are not tailored to the person. And so I coached a lot of people through talking to their managers about this as well. It's like, hey, my strengths are here. If I can do more of this, that's going to benefit you. These are not my strengths, but they are other people's strengths. And also, like, don't pay me to do that when you can pay someone else.

and I can do more of this, which is like, you know, it makes sense when we do it that way. And that's been really working for me as well to go, okay, I can do more of this stuff because I'm good at it. I love it. And that's why I love the therapeutic work where it's case management. It's not my strength. There's a lot of planning, a lot of like, know it. Like I could remember the stories of people, but then all the like what I've done, what I need

to do, all the like kind of steps of the things that I need to check off when you've got a lot of clients that you're like, I've got to call this. Oh, forms. Forms are not my forte at all. I hate doing forms for myself and then helping someone else feel in sentinelink forms, you know, not my thing. So I think this last few years and working with Divergent Edge, I've been able to go, okay, you know what, that's okay that those are not my strengths. And I think as a social work, I'm like, I'm bad case management. Like, it's like a, oh, that's like our thing. but I've been able to go, okay, that's okay, that's not my strength because I know these are my strengths and this is where I thrive and that's actually what I love doing and that's where I'm at now

and that's what I'm doing. And so I'm really content with this role and what I'm doing that I'm able to use my strengths. And so I've just started running groups now, which I've always known groups of my passion, but I've literally just run one session of a group as our first group but divergent edge. And I'm like, ah, that's right. I remember.

I remember this feeling. Oh. I'm like, yes, I love it. Yeah, I'm thriving and I'm just like bouncing off everyone. It was really good.

So that's what I want to kind of get more into. Like that's tapping into my creativity, my love for kind of researching and planning and then that group dynamic stuff. And yeah. So, yeah, I don't remember the question, but did that end?

It answered my question. and more, so thank you. Yeah, I'm sure it did. Your sister sounds amazing. What does she do for work? She's in a similar field. She is a project manager working as a domestic violence kind of consultant in an organization. So she does a lot of, particularly with refugee families, and she's done a lot of case management.

Case management is her thing. She's great at it. I feel like a three-legged race, you guys would just knock it out of the park. Yeah, yeah, we're a good team. So incredible. Is she an older sister? Yeah, yeah. I just feel like having someone like that to admire and look up to as a young person

would have just been such an incredible experience. Yeah, absolutely. I'm very, very lucky and thankful. Other than needing to be so in tune with your own brain and your own body, what other supports do you need? You've obviously got to kind of manage your own needs with ADHD. in terms of having the flexibility for work, in terms of having colleagues who respect and celebrate your abilities. I mean, the fact that you're continuing to upskill constantly is fantastic,

but what other supports do you need in order to do your best work? I think the space and the intention to keep researching and growing in those areas, because I think when you're doing like therapeutic sessions, you can just kind of go, okay, back to backs. But, you know, that is quite intentional about not putting too much in. So we do have space to look after ourselves, keep doing the research, doing the kind of behind the scene stuff and growing in that.

So I think it's sometimes being intentional about using our time well when we do have downtime during work hours. For me, I think the work with my clients, is so, so important for me because every session is a session on me. Like, because I'll say things and I'm like, I know I need to do this. Depending on what it is, I'll say, look, I'm saying this to myself as well. We are going to do blah, blah, blah, you know, and kind of saying like, challenging myself at the same time.

And sometimes I'll have to kind of reflect on that and go, okay, that was a good point I made in that session. I might have to actually kind of embed that. Like it can be easy to just kind of go, okay, moving on. But I think that that's not me or who I can't kind of just ignore myself. And so I find that really helpful because the more I grow for other people, the more their growth challenges me as well and encourages me. And so things that I share with people very confidently,

like I think it's important putting yourself first is not selfish. and, you know, as a parent, you need to have time for yourself and you need to, you know, blah, blah. And then I'm like, okay, do you do that, Emma? Do you do that? And so that constantly kind of working in mental health and well-being is really helpful. I think it challenges you to go, okay, walk the walk. And don't just pretend you know all these things and not, I think it's inauthentic and I think that that's one of my biggest values or strongest values is authenticity and as a therapist I want to make sure that I'm always growing because you can only take people as far as you've gone. I can give knowledge but I feel like it's just empty if I'm not

embedding that and understanding how hard it is to embed that as well. So not being like, you haven't done those things. Being like, man, I get it. You don't have to do homework. This is not school. Like if you don't have time for it, great, we'll do it together now. Like let's like go over what we spoke about. Or what's going on? Like, what do you think is holding you back? What's the barrier? I just no judgment because it's not easy. And I'm curious as to what professional development would look like for you. You mentioned conferences and other networking opportunities. What is out there? Are there people who work in similar areas that all get together once a year? Like, what does it look like? So I'm a part of, this is not very helpful for my role in.

like specifically to ADHD, but I'm part of the Mental Health Academy that do training. Some of them are hit or miss, but some of them have been really, really good. And they're just online trainings. You can just do, you pay around $40 a month, I think it is. But I found that helpful for working from home, doing online stuff. And it's just being like, I can just fit it into my schedule whenever it's there. I found that helpful for getting, definitely getting my CPD hours in. But in terms of specific for ADHD,

is a network. And so there's the ADHD conferences and then kind of networking with all those people as well. And so finding people that are doing similar things, Danny's really good at kind of knowing what's out there and kind of is like, okay, we're doing this and sending us the links. Who wants to kind of be involved in this one? There's a lot of online stuff, which is so helpful. So there is definitely more that needs to be out there. We're actually starting to run training ourselves as well. And so we're doing our first training in September that we're kind of writing at the moment for other mental health professionals, for therapists identifying ADHD. I mean, understanding it because I think a lot of people are getting people coming to them and going,

oh, I saw a TikTok and I think I might have ADHD. And I tell you, that is so valid. Yeah. I've got so many clients that tell me that TikTok diagnose them. And I'm telling you, the algorithm is on point. If you're seeing ADHD, TikTok, TikToks, come and have a chat with me. Yeah. There might be something there. And same as Instagram as well. There's just a lot of people sharing their lived experience.

And so that's where this kind of revival is coming, that people are going, I relate to that a bit. See, for me, I actually saw a meme on the group therapy memes, which is hilarious on Facebook. And I saw a meme about ADHD and I was like, wait, what? Like, I don't relate to that so hard. And then that's what made me kind of go, oh, let's have a look into that. a bit more. And the sad part is the GPs, the therapists are not picking it up. But having said that, I was a therapist and didn't even pick it up in myself. You know, we don't get taught about it. And I think it's so common for what the client group that come to us for anxiety, depression,

and chronic, like, okay, I'm working on it, but it's not happening. I'm working on it, but I'm still still doing the same things over and over and over. Look into their neurodivergence. So that's what we're doing. We're doing. We're doing. training for other therapists around how to identify and pick up the different things. Because I noticed this in my previous workplaces where I'd be like, oh, I'm thinking this young woman is showing signs of autism and other people kind of working with. I was like, oh, no, no.

And I'm like, yes, yes. It's not what you think it is. There's this thing called masking. And also it presents so differently. And so, yeah, I've been able to kind of, because I know I can kind of like pick up on those things and be like, oh, that's interesting. Oh, that's what that is. So I think there's no kind of judgment on the therapist not being able to pick it up because you just don't get taught it. You don't get, you don't understand it. And it's, it's not well talked about. There's not a

lot of training. Even looking on Mental Health Academy, nothing to do with ADHD or autism. But there's a one about parents of autistic kids and I did not enjoy that training. I didn't think it was very, I don't know, growth focused. Mm. Mm. Yeah, but even on ASW, I don't think I've seen anything. I should check again recently before I say that, but I haven't seen anything kind of specifically around neurodivergence. So I think it's an area that's quite lacking and would be really helpful for the social work community as well as the therapist community counselors and psychologists kind of understanding more about neurodivergence and how to pick it up, how to support people. This is where it becomes a real social work issue is when it's so systemic.

And it is a privilege to get diagnosed because no free bulk billing psychiatrist will diagnose someone with ADHD. They may diagnose and they'll be like, you have to find someone else to do the meds because they're not going to see someone ongoing to prescribe Section 8 medication, which means that they're the only ones who can prescribe it. And they have to be, it's lifelong. It's lifelong. And so you can't go to hospital and get. get diagnosed with ADHD and it can be a huge, huge thing in your life. I've seen lives absolutely transformed by medication, majorly transformed. That doesn't mean medication's always the answer, but it's a huge, huge piece of the puzzle for people and it's a massive privilege to get diagnosed. So obviously it's a privilege because mostly men and boys get diagnosed and so women don't tend

to until later in life, it's a privilege financially because it costs a lot to see a psychiatrist and you often have to pay up front. And then the medications are probably not cheap either. Yeah, well, some of them are okay because they're on the PBS now, which is great. But often you have to trial a few different types to get what works for you, which means you've got to go back to your very expensive psychiatrist to go, actually, no, those didn't work. Let's try something else. and then you're like, oh, should I just stick with it? Because I can't afford to be back to them. And so there can be, yeah, and psychiatrists,

and I don't know if you're seeing this as well. There's few and far between, you know, and the wait lists are insane to get into psychiatrists. And then to find someone who understands ADHD, people ask us for recommendations. I'm like, who's free, who's available here? Just who is, because I was calling someone, because we work across Australia.

I called a psychiatrist in Vickey, Victoria, and I knew their books were closed, but I was like, look, we've done the assessment. I can send you a report. We are doing the ongoing work with them. You don't need to follow up support. You don't need to refer anywhere. We just want Mets. Yeah. It's all we want. Can you make an exception? I know your books are closed. And they're like, oh, no, sorry, books are closed. I'm like, okay, do you know when you'll be opening your books? It's like, well, in six months, we will review whether we will open our books or not. I was like, wow. Okay, do you know anyone in Victoria, who has their books open.

And she was like, nah, so I was like, far out. Okay. Because yes, it's not an emergency, but yes, it kind of also is. Yeah. Yeah. And once you have that realization, like, oh, this is what it is. And then you're reading other people's stories about what the medication does, similar to an SSRI that will inhibit the reuptake of serotonin.

The stimulants inhibit the reuptake of dopamine, which means we retain it, which means we can start tasks a lot easier, which we can stay focused longer and concentrate and stay present. Like some of us ADHD is don't know what it's like to be present. And that's why we struggle with mindfulness and meditation. And so it's a game changer. You can start doing the things you know that it's good for you. I mean, it can just kind of kickstart that.

And so it is something that a lot of people start researching about and saying, I know that I want to trial meds. Like I want to see if that works. I'm hearing other people's experiences that are like mine, and they say that this is really helpful. And so then they've got to be told they've got to wait at least six months until you can trial the meds. So it's painful, and it's a real struggle. And if people are studying, they're like, well, I can't get, I can't even get accommodations until I'm officially diagnosed. And so they can't get support at uni.

Some unis are good because they're like, understand that. And they're like, okay, we can put some stuff in place in the meantime and workplaces as well. I advocate for a lot of clients around workplace accommodations and you need a diagnosis a lot of the time to back that up. So that's when it gets really, really hard for people. They're like, well, I can't do anything. I'm just in limbo for a moment. Are there any apps that are really good for meditation, mindfulness for people with neurodivergence? Is that a thing? I feel like it should be. It depends on your vibe on it because there are ones I've heard, there's some ninja one, but it's like good for kids. But the whole thing of it is it's a bit of a challenge. And so it's

like, if you do this, you can get this many points and like gamifying meditation. Yeah. So I've heard it working for some kind of hyperactive, more hyperactive kids that are like excited about that. Yeah. So that's a, I've forgotten what it's called ninja something. But yeah, in terms of the meditation, I would say, I mean, smiling mind is great because it's got the short ones. So for ADHD is it's doing, don't do 10 minutes, do three. Start off with three and then kind of work your way up. And also something that we do to motivate ourselves is beat ourselves down a bit because that's what we've been taught.

That's what we've been taught. Like just try harder. Just do it. Just do it. Like sometimes I'm like, I've had reminders in my phone in caps, caps, locks, like, drink water today. I'm like, now I'm not going to do it because you told me to it. I'm like, you're telling yourself. That's you.

but that's a demand avoidance, which is very ADHD, it's part of that. So it's using that positive stuff. Like there's no failing. We have a bit of one of my clients coined this term, and I love it called failure fatigue. We have this kind of, you're not living up to your potential. You're not doing enough. And we beat ourselves down because other people beat us down as well. It could be parents or teachers or just comparing ourselves and the way that our brain works,

the way that we do things, the way we study, the way we work and we get failure fatigue. It's like I just can't bear to fail anymore and you just stop trying. And so you've dead so feel like you're failing it, mindfulness. Like I can't focus. And just reframing that, yeah, it's like no one can for one. That's whole point of practicing meditation is that, you know, okay, my mind dress up, I bring it back.

My mind just off, I bring it back. And it's just going to, it's, that's me. constant. My last time I did meditation, it was really good, starting to feel like, oh, yes, it was like a visualization one because I like, that works for my brain because I'm very visual. So I found that that works for me. And I was enjoying it so much that then I started drifting and creating. I'm like, I know at work, I'm going to run meditation for everyone and we're going to have, like, it's non-mandatory. Just if anyone wants to join, I'm going to run. And I was like, okay, organize that later to the mindfully.

It's still going. And I'm just like, I'm organizing a program. I'm like, and so I'm like, okay, bring it back. It's okay. And then I'm like, and then we could do this and then we could do that. And then, okay, bring it back. So it's just kind of the practice and reminding yourself that the practice of bringing it back, that's what's training your brain.

And so sometimes we get down and I say, oh, I drifted off so much. But it's like, yeah, but did you bring yourself back? Because that's the practice. And that's what the goal is, is that you're training your brain to, okay, stay present, stay present. And the more you practice that, the more your brain can do that for longer periods. So that's why mindfulness is even more important for ADHD is, but painfully hard sometimes. Sure. Do you find that it's easier or harder or it just depends on the person having a virtual therapy space? I've found mostly easier in that there's flexibility

people forget about their appointments. And so you just text them the link and they're like, oh, sorry, here I am. Yeah, cool. And so I've found that because, you know, ADHD is struggle with planning their days or appointments or time, time's a big one. You know, we can't process time internally. And so we often kind of like, oh, my gosh, that time already.

Oh, it's, you know. And so having that rather than being like, I've got to leave, I've got to get ready and I've got to drive there. And then I've got to factor that into my workday. So because a lot of people are working from home, they just like schedule us in. Because I find that really hard. And we work nine to five, as does most people. And so factoring therapy into your work day is a struggle for a lot of people.

And so being able to be online, we can kind of go, okay, well, some people do it at work in their lunch breaks and have like an extended lunch break. or some people from home kind of just work out their flexible hours. And so kind of do it at this time and then like work back an hour. So I find it's been, it's a really helpful shift. And virtual, there's just not as much of a barrier as I thought there would be when we first started, especially when we first went into lockdown. I was working with youth.

And I was like, oh, this is not going to be good. How are we going to do this? It was fine. Yeah. Like obviously the youth do this all the time. Young people are always doing, like they're gaming with their friends. They adapt really quickly. They do this.

They're sweet at the internet. So it's mostly, I think everyone's kind of used to it now. And it does just feel like, you know, you're just talking to each other. You feel like you're together. We're kind of used to the virtual space now, I think. Yeah. The only issue is with the internet. Or technical problems.

And yeah, when people are using their phone and then they get a phone call and then it's like, gone. And it's like, okay. Okay. Or like try and coordinate getting good on. Yeah, and so that's the only barrier sometimes. But it hasn't come up that much, really. Yeah, it's good.

So I think it's been, it's pretty good. Are there any really good resources that are out there? You've talked a little bit about the strategies or approaches that you use, like the strengths base, the form informed CBT, DBT Act. There's, you know, bits of group work and group leadership thrown in there as well. and you mentioned some of the other programs and training, are there any good resources for people who feel as though they may have ADHD or they're supporting someone who does where they can go?

And again, there's no judgment and there's no sort of, this is what you should be doing. It's just here is some information and here is what you might like to do with it. I have found, so one of my favorite websites, for ADHD is Attitude, A-D-D-I-T-U-D-E. Also can't spell things out loud, but I think I did that one well. Attitude. They're a magazine, online magazine for ADHD, all things related to.

They have amazing articles by all different people and different professions. And so I often guide people there. They've got checklists and things as well that you can do. And so I love their resources. and you can kind of just go specific into different topics. Are you looking for stuff around kids? Are you looking for stuff around women? Are you looking around stuff with supplements and diet?

Are you looking around, like, you know, all different stuff? So I highly recommend that. And is that run by a group of psychologists? What's their background? Ah, that's a really good question. I'm not sure. I know the articles are written by psychologists, some psychiatrists, a lot of researchers, teachers, you know, a lot of different backgrounds.

but I'm not sure about who runs it or where it originated, but it's got some good stuff. I haven't come across anything too questionable. Yeah, cool. But always, when you're reading anything, always find the research, find the stuff that backs it up, find the evidence base, or peer reviewed. Yeah, yeah. You mentioned some programs and projects that you're wanting to run.

Is there anything else that's coming up that you want to let us know about? Oh, so much. I'm like, there's so much I want to just say, this is what I'm doing, but I haven't actually like organized it yet. This is your wish list. This is what you'd like to be doing. Yeah, I've got to stop my wish list. Yeah, so I'm definitely going to be running more groups.

The group that I'm running at the moment is autistic ADHD is, it's all women at the moment just circumstantially, but I think it's going so well that we will run that again. And so that's something that I've found really helpful because, again, that community part is just, just so good. We had like the first hour and then some of them were like, oh, I don't want to like stick around and chat. Like I haven't met other people who kind of have this dual diagnosis or like, you know, I just don't know other people. And so we ended up staying on and chatting for half an hour

and I'm like, this is it. This is reaching the goals that I had. Like this is unstructured, just kind of like being like, oh my gosh, I do that too or like kind of demystifying things, connecting and oh, I just loved it. So I'm sure I'll run that again because it's getting quite big now. So we'll be kind of doing a lot more programs like that. And we will also be, after we run this training, we're doing an in-person training in September. And then we're going to be creating and building online training platform. Because like I said, kind of building that professional development for therapists. So we've had a lot of referrals from therapists going, it's not my area, you know, and so I want them to have something more specific to that. I don't know a lot about it. So we want to upskill the world,

you know, mostly Australia, just in understanding and identifying and how to, how to work with or, you know, how to, depending on what area they're in, kind of tailoring some training. So we're going to be creating an online training platform, which will be good in the future. I'm not sure how far in the future, but that's our dream. And then other groups, we're looking at, I want to run one around dyslexia. I'm looking at running kind of EFT for impulsivity. We have a dietitian as well. And so we're working together with a lot of eating disorder treatment plans in an ADHD-friendly way.

So understanding that binge eating is highly correlated with dopamine and ADHD, as well as restricting and purging can be a lot around. there's a lot of links to neurodivergence. And so having that foundation, we're working closely together around building maybe a program or groups as well as kind of helping people with executive dysfunction to be planning their weeks, doing kind of meal prep or how to do kind of easy meals, but also healing your gut, as we know, that's where we produce dopamine and serotonin, understanding the gut brain connection and what foods are good for my brain.

because there are so many, and supplements as well, like there's so many nutrients that is so good for the ADHD brain. And so just kind of giving people knowledge around our dietitian is an anti-diet dietitian. We're definitely not around creating strict diets. We're about just empowering people to know what's helpful for their brain and their bodies. So that will be in the future as well. That's all amazing stuff. I keep coming back to while you're talking,

my experience of psychology as an undergrad and just the importance of having studied a lot of that stuff, especially around developmental psychology and development stages and understanding our brains and even the fact that we're still learning so much about our brains and yeah, the importance of having done that as a social worker. But I'm also hearing that there needs to be, especially in private practice, there needs to be a huge amount of flexibility and an opportunity to me. someone where they're at instead of expecting them to come in for a certain number of sessions. And if they don't, then they've failed somehow or they're not trying hard enough or they don't want to improve whatever it is that they've come to you with.

But also the need to practice what you preach. So you're saying that everything that you recommend to someone, you either have tried it before you've said that or you go, I'm going to go try that after this session. So yeah, just that I love the transparency, the honesty. and just the drive and the fact that you are able to pave the way in identifying for some people what that might look like and therefore what their capacity might be because, you know, society is telling them that they don't fit. Yeah.

Yeah, I guess also I see that even from the beginning you've been driven so much by passion and you've been given really great opportunities early on in social work to work. in areas that suited your strengths and your abilities. You mentioned things like even just memory retention for stories and pattern thinking and your own self-care is being like, okay, it's okay to care, but it's also really important to be able to step back and look after yourself and create some healthy boundaries. But yeah, I think keep doing what you're doing. It's amazing.

Find your people. Keep building your networks because eventually the more. awareness, the less stigma, the greater understanding that people can have around how it is that we all work and we all have great things to contribute, I think the better for not just our profession, but for society in general. Is there anything else maybe that you wanted to mention before we finish up, anything about your experience or about social work in general? I mean, if anyone is considering doing social work, do it. I'm a major advocate for people studying social work.

I try and get everyone to study it. I think it's amazing. But yeah, I guess as well, if you're, you know, considering with the range of kind of degrees and you have the opportunity to study social work, it's just the best. The skills that you get, you can always kind of spot a social worker. Yeah. You know, you can always pick them out. And I think that it teaches us that self-reflection, that personal growth,

and it sets you up for a lifetime of learning and growing and just the diversity that you can work in is amazing you can find your passion you don't have to even know where you want to work if you just like working with people and supporting people then it's the career for you. And it's obviously the right thing for you as well. I know that there was a bit of uncertainty at the beginning around town I'm going to manage this and is this even what I want to be doing and am I cut out for this? But again, that's some of that negative self-talk that really you just needed the opportunity to show that this was the right thing for you.

Yeah, absolutely. Love it. Love being a social worker. Thank you, Emma, so much. I've really loved hearing about your experience and what you bring to this relatively new area of social work, but also just an area that has so much more to develop and can have capacity to influence other areas, whether it's medical therapy. Definitely social work, but just being able to get in there and really lead the way, I think, is really incredible.

So please keep doing what you're doing. And I look forward to keeping in touch and seeing where it takes you. Thank you. Thanks for the opportunity. And thanks for all that you do to share how awesome social work is. Thanks for joining me this week. If you would like to continue this discussion or ask anything of either myself or Emma, please visit my anchor page at anchor.fm slash social work spotlight.

You can find me on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter, or you can email SW Spotlight Podcast at gmail.com. I'd love to hear from you. Please also let me know if there is a particular topic you'd like discussed, or if you or another person you know would like to be featured on the show. Next episode's guest is Zen, a qualified counselor and mental health social worker, with a strong passion for providing high-quality counseling and socializing. support. Zen is experienced working with adults, adolescents and couples in tertiary education,

non-government and community health settings. Zen's areas of interest include supporting individuals with relationship issues, depression, anxiety, life transitions, substance abuse, grief and loss and workplace conflict. I release a new episode every two weeks. Please subscribe to my podcast so you'll notify when this next episode is available. See you next time. Thank you.