Social Work Spotlight - Episode 70: Gabbie

Episode Date: November 11, 2022

In this episode I speak with Gabbie, a final year Masters of Social Work student at Western Sydney University and works part time in community engagement with the peak body for mental health carers in NSW. Gabbie has recently returned from the United States after being selected as one of two Australian representatives to attend the International Summer of Social Work Conference hosted by the University of California, Los Angeles.Links to resources mentioned in this week’s episode:Tuck & Yang Article (Decolonization is not a metaphor) - https://clas.osu.edu/sites/clas.osu.edu/files/Tuck%20and%20Yang%202012%20Decolonization%20is%20not%20a%20metaphor.pdfFams (peak body for the NSW family services sector) - https://fams.asn.au/Raise the Age Campaign - https://www.raisetheage.org.au/Tech For Social Good - https://www.techforsocialgood.org/Mental Health Carers NSW - https://www.mentalhealthcarersnsw.org/The Inside Social Work Podcast - https://insidesocialwork.com/Law Report - https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/law-report-full-program-podcast/id74849126This episode's transcript can be viewed here:https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wgzcF4osU1tKA0zN4QmW01n_MPsahQaUEuup8ttwcv8/edit?usp=sharingThanks to Kevin Macleod of incompetech.com for our theme music.

Hi and welcome to Social Work Spotlight, where I showcase different areas of the profession each episode. I'm your host, Yasmaine McKee Wright, and today's guest is Gabby, a final year Masters of Social Work student at Western Sydney University, who works part-time in community engagement with the peak body for mental health careers in New South Wales. Gabby has recently returned from the United States after being selected as one of two Australian representatives to attend the International Summer of Social Work Conference, hosted by the University of California, Los Angeles. Thank you so much, Gabby, for taking the time to meet with me today and talk about your

experience. No worries. Thank you for having me. I'd love to know when you started in social work. What drew you to the profession? Getting to social work or study social work was a little bit of a journey from me. I finished high school in 2014 and had a year off and moved to Sydney and did a Bachelor of arts and made it in English literature. So a little bit different from social work. When I left school,

I kind of wasn't sure what I wanted to do, but I thought it would be either teaching, high school teaching or journalism. And I did the English degree thinking I might do a master's after if I decide that I want to go into teaching. Anyway, I finished my English degree at the University of Sydney and I actually applied for the Juris Doctorate, which is the postgraduate law degree at Sydney University. And I kind of said to myself, if I get one of the Commonwealth supported places, which meant that my degree wasn't going to cost me very much, I would do law and I'd go down that path because I'd always had an interest in politics and an interest in social justice. And I thought that law would be the best way to go for that. I wasn't really sure if it was

going to work out. And then I ended up getting in. And I did a year of that. And it was one of the hardest years of my life. It was just the Juris Doctorate is a full-time law degree. It was at a very prestigious uni. It was very corporate commercial focused and it was pretty cutthroat. And after the first year, I remember I was finishing my international law exam, which was kind of meant to be one of my favorite subjects and what I thought I enjoyed the most. And I was doing the exam and I just hated it. I said, this is so stressful. I remember talking to my dad and I was like, I just feel depleted. I thought this is what I wanted.

I got into this degree and I had all these expectations that I was going to finish it. And I was so disillusioned by it. And so in that January before the new year started, I had to look for some masters of social work programs. And I thought, I want to go back to working with the people that I'm feeling like I wanted to support at a policy and systems level. How can I enforce change if I want to go back to working with the people that I'm feeling like I'm feeling like I want to support at a policy and systems level? How can I enforce change if I am working from the top down? It didn't align with me.

The people I was working with in law, I didn't feel that I fit in in that world. And I also was very concerned that I was going to end up living a life that was going to be 50 plus hours of work a week and not achieving the outcomes that I really wanted to achieve. So I had a look at a few master's programs and made a quick decision and I'm just finishing off my master's social work at Western City Uni. and it was the best decision I ever made.

I've just loved it so much. It's exactly what I wanted to do. And when I went into law, I thought I was going to do that, because I thought I would work in criminal justice or in public law, but the approach that law took to social justice was not the way that I wanted to go about doing social justice work.

So social work has definitely ended up aligning a lot more with my values, and it ended up being. a lot more broad than I initially expected it to be. I was a little bit nervous that I would get stuff doing one-on-one client-facing work and that wasn't going to be enough for me to create the sort of change that I wanted to see in society. But, you know, it actually ended up being such an amazing balance of working one-on-one with clients and really getting to know people and understanding the day-to-day challenges they face. And I've also had opportunities to work in a much more systems advocacy level,

a kind of in policy and working alongside some bigger companies and DCJ and state government to inform change that will impact the people that you get to work with on a one-to-one level as well. Incredible. It sounds really as though that experience you were having towards the end of your first year of law was less about the content,

which you were really interested in and perhaps more about the cultures. So perhaps there wasn't that connection to the practical component that you could see that initially you were interested in exploring. Yeah, I would definitely say that's true. I think even in criminal law, if you're working at a community legal centre and you're advocating for your client, you don't get to spend the time developing that rapport and really understanding their perspective.

You know, you're very time limited. You have to kind of hear their case, which is a very, short little snippet of their life and then try and apply the facts to that case and advocate for your client in that way. And I often felt that the law doesn't take into account the bigger picture. You know, there's more to somebody's life than more to somebody's circumstances than a few facts that fit within legislational or within the precedence of a similar case. You know, everyone's different. And the law, it doesn't make room for the fact that every human and every scenario is different.

And so it just wasn't the right approach for me. Did you know anyone studying social work at the time? Is that what kind of drew you in that direction? No, I actually, I don't know anyone who studied social work until I ended up in it. And it's funny because I have loved it so much. I've actually convinced one of my friends who finished her law degree to go on and do a master's of social work

because I've been such a strong advocate for the discipline. and I think it's fantastic. And I think law and social work really complement each other. But yeah, I don't know exactly what it was. And I hadn't really had much to do with social workers, my own personal life. My mom's a nurse. You know, I guess I heard a little bit about the role of social workers through her. But I just had always had a strong interest in social justice.

And just thought, you know, I'd give it a go. I was feeling quite desperate when I was doing this law degree and it wasn't right. So I was kind of like, I'll just try anything. and yeah, it's just been fantastic. It's interesting the number of people I've spoken to who have either studied law and then gone on to be a social worker or vice versa. So there are obviously some common elements and a common desire for people to be supporting someone who's disadvantaged

or marginalized. I can definitely see the crossover there. But yeah, it's just interesting to me the number of people that I've seen that have fielded those two areas. areas quite seamlessly. Yeah, for sure. I think they definitely complement each other. What have you had experience in so far while you've been studying?

What have your placement's been? So my first placement was with a New South Wales peak body for the family services sector. They're called FAMS. Peak bodies work between governments and then frontline services to advocate for change. They kind of sit in the middle as a bit of a buffer. So you often have competing perspectives that you kind of have to try and balance between what the government wants done through their funding structures and then what's actually happening on the frontline services and what they see. So that was a really fantastic experience. I kind of wasn't sure what I was going to get out of it. I had an incredible supervisor who sort of let me lead my own project.

She gave me a bit of scope and then sort of said, you know, do what you want. want with it. So I kind of did a project where I looked at the history of family services in New South Wales and how that's evolved over the last, since it sort of came about in the 1970s with the Whitlam government and there was much more of an emphasis on social services and then right up until today and having a look at how policy positions have changed and how funding structures have changed and how the people that family services support has changed as well and the kind of people who work in family services. So that was a really interesting perspective to see how different governments have informed different funding structures and how that's created different outcomes. So a lot of FAMS's work

was advocating for better outcomes and more sustainable outcomes that weren't just sort of a quick fix. and that worked with services rather than taking that top-down approach and just telling services what they had to do. So yeah, I really loved that placement and it definitely kind of ignited. My passion for working in policy and advocacy, yeah, it was good. I feel like that's a master's project all in itself. Yeah, it was, I mean, I didn't end up kind of really getting to, I've got a bit of a draft that I put together for them. But it really informed a lot of the way that I work now as well in my current placement,

which is actually client-facing and we have a family services part of the refuge that I'm currently in as well. So I've been really lucky that I've been able to see the policy and advocacy side of that and then the front line and what that looks like. Wow. And really translate your strength in research and writing and your strong language skills that you had from your undergrad. just to be able to tie that into what you've already learned about and make some real practical changes. Yeah, for sure.

It's kind of daunting, though. I'm casting my mind back to when I was a student and I had a project that I was working on for my last placement. Unless you have someone guiding you and telling you this is a project that we were hoping to run and this is what we're hoping to get out of it, it's actually quite a lot of responsibility to be able to come up with your own ideas and figure out what is going to be most beneficial for the organisation. You kind of want to leave a legacy of some sort. How did you decide what you were going to work on within that project?

I think when I started the placement, my supervisor said, look, we've got this task that we would like you to have a look at. And we want to track our stance on policy and our work and whether there's been any inconsistencies since we started. And I kind of sat with that idea, okay, like, how can I make this something that people actually want to read that isn't just data and it isn't just, you know, academic jargon? How can I create this into something that is, you know, that the everyday person can read and understand. So, and I guess I have my English literature background and with that fair bit of creative writing.

So I kind of came back to her and said, like, I want to make this into a bit of a story, you know, based on fact, but I want to tell a story of the family services sector in New South Wales and how fams have constantly advocated for non-government organisations and the families and children that they support. And she really loved that idea and kind of helped me guide it. And so it was a lot of going through old papers from, you know, I think the oldest one I found was 1975 or something like that. And I love all that all history and having a look at, you know, these old politicians and seeing the way that they write and what they were thinking and understanding

the different connections and interests that were happening around the Whitlam era. And then comparing that to when I was doing my placement in the first part of this year, it was still the liberal government in and understanding how much has changed in the way that we support community services and the non-government sector particularly. So yeah, I just created this sort of storyboard that followed from about the 1970s up until today and how to look at the different changes and picked out what was important. You know, it's still sitting there in a draft form. So I know they have a placement student there at the moment. So maybe she can tidy it up and pull it together. But yeah, it was really interesting to see the way that things have changed. And I think one of the

biggest things that most social workers and anyone working in the community service will notice is that I think from around the Whitlam era when we were really focused on social service it was very much about the client and improving outcomes for the client whereas now in this more sort of neoliberal climate that we're in it's very much about service delivery and meeting KPIs and what looks good for the service which has almost become much more like a business now So it's become, yeah, it's very interesting. And definitely I can see how that has impacted caseworkers and social workers in their roles today. Yeah.

And did you get a chance within that writing up the report to maybe project a little in terms of where you feel things are heading over time? Yes, definitely with my supervisor, when we had those sessions, we contemplated about that. And she had worked in the family services and community sector before coming into the policy and advocacy role. And she was very, very aware of that. And then it was really great. FAMS gave me lots of opportunities to sit in on interagency meetings with different family services across the state and a few campaigns as well, like race-age campaign to

sit in on those meetings. So I think people who work in the sector at a kind of very grassy, grassroots level are aware and they're sort of, you know, saying very much the things that I'm saying now that we're focusing too much on services and government and not enough on the people that we're actually trying to support. But, you know, when I've gone into my placement now, which is frontline delivery, I have been able to kind of go, oh, I don't feel like this particular route is the right way to go. I feel like that's benefiting the service. That's, you know, if we have to let someone leave our refuge earlier than they're ready because of the policy we have

on that, I can kind of go, well, that's about what looks good for the service. That's not about what's best for the client. But, you know, it's a hard line when you're a student because you're still learning and you don't want to overstep and, you know, cross any boundaries with people. So you've got to be a little bit diplomatic with the way that you go about it. But yeah, I try to. Yeah, incredible. What's your current role? What's your placement and what sort of things you're responsible for? So I'm currently on placement in a women and children's refuge to non-government organization. And I am about halfway through. So I'm starting to take on a few of my own cases. So we have two refuges actually. We have clients who are in transitional properties out in the

community and then we also have clients who are outreach clients so they are in the community and they just need like a little bit of casework with a few things after they've left a violent relationship or if they are still in a violent relationship and they're thinking about moving and coming up with some ideas of what that might look like and what that might entail so casework in the family violence sector is quite complex and there's lots of things. that you have to consider. So we consider matters that are legal, child protection, rent, employment, victim services, Centrelink,

schooling for children, developing parental capacity, referring on to psychologists and counselling for therapy around trauma and recovering from that. So, you know, there's so many things that go into developing a case plan when you're working in the domestic violence sector. Yeah. And also medical, I can imagine, would tie into that. Yeah, definitely.

So you would have a social work supervisor on your placement, but are the other people that you work with social workers, or is it kind of interdisciplinary at the refuge? So at the refuge, we have two sort of services. We have our specialist homeless services, so they're the more caseworkers. a lot of those are social workers. There's a few who have TAFE diplomas in community services,

and they've kind of got years and years of experience as well. And then we also have our family services sector who do what you might call more sort of soft entry, building capacity of parents and children. They are not social workers. They come from different sort of disciplines that might be more sort of things. therapy, counselling and TAFE diplomas in counselling and community services and that kind of thing.

Okay. I would imagine then you would have a good opportunity to speak with your supervisor and reflect on why specifically a social worker could make a big change in this area. What is it about social work that lends itself well to this role? Yeah, definitely. We have had those conversations and I think I work more with the SHS team, so the specialist homeless team, and that's mainly where the social workers are located. And I think in that role, you really have to have that interdisciplinary and very much macro perspective of the way that things work. You'll be dealing with things that can seem sort of more like smaller issues, like maybe housing or education or something like that. But then you also have to understand that somebody's goals or somebody's challenge

are also impacted by macro social issues that are happening at a wider lens. And I think social workers are really well placed to be able to move between those two different perspectives and understand that, you know, somebody might be struggling not because of something purely within themselves. It's something bigger than what they have control of and social workers can identify that. And even if we can't fix it or change it, I think. think we have the ability to let our clients know that this is going on and there's ways we can address it to help them move forward and overcome the trauma that they've experienced.

Yeah. And in amongst all that, you're also involved with a not-for-profit agency that's looking at technology. Can you tell me a bit about that? Yes. And volunteering with a group, tech for social good. And a lot of what we're all about is having young people involved in tech who are using technology to create social good. So I'm not a big tech head and I don't work. I don't volunteer within that capacity. My role is very much in community engagement and trying to engage people from lots of different disciplines like social work to think about how tech. technology can be beneficial and can drive the change that we want to see amongst our most disadvantaged communities. So yeah, a lot of my role is kind of reaching out to different people

and getting them connected and understanding, you know, even if you don't have a tech background, we are moving forward in a world that requires us to use technology and anyone who has to report data in any of our systems will understand that it is a, often challenging process sometimes. And also, you know, anyone working, especially within the domestic violence and child protection space, understands how tech has become a way to manipulate people who are not educated and to potentially create more abuse

through surveillance and tapping into their mobile phones. If we can develop the technology that is situated around, sort of empowering, you know, women and children and people from disadvantaged communities, then I think that's kind of the direction we have to go with this movement towards using tech in our everyday lives. Yeah, you just reminded me. I was watching a documentary recently on either SBS or ABC, and it was about violence in relationships.

And there was a specific scene where a woman was taken to, an organization that specializes in, I guess, identifying when tech has been meddled with. So she took her phone there and this person could actually go in and see all these different apps and things that have been downloaded onto her phone by her abusive partner to track her and to manipulate her. So it was just kind of scary and really eye-opening to see exactly what you were saying in terms of how people can be taken advantage of. without, well, I mean, even if you are tech savvy, there are things that can be put into programs and phones and apps that put people at risk. So, yeah, I think it's an incredible

idea and the really valuable thing that the organisation is doing. Yeah, and I think the other thing is that's really important is that the people who are working in tech and who are developing these technologies need to be aware of these risks. And if you, want to create a product that has social impact and social good, well, what is, what is social impact? What is good? What is social justice? You know, I think people within these spaces really need, they need to not assume that they have the tool that's going to fix somebody else's life. They may have the materials, they may have the knowledge to help those communities or those particular people build the right technology, but I think we need to sort of infiltrate into

those corporate commercial spaces to ensure that the type of social good and social impacts that we're seeing is actually meeting the needs of these communities that we're trying to empower. And I can imagine in order to be able to do that, you'd need quite a lot of support behind you, maybe even government making some sort of change or some sort of requirement. to say if these are to be created and put out onto the market, there needs to be some level of, I don't know, even if there's a separate company that's just in charge of monitoring or determining whether there are things that could put these apps open to manipulation. Exactly, yeah, for sure.

Yeah. My husband was, he's a video game developer and he was working for a company that was using augmented reality for coaching and confidence of young people. So the idea was that these kids were, and this is running in the US and they were considering bringing it to Australia, they would put on these headsets, video headsets, and they would be put into scenarios where, let's say it's a schoolyard and they're being subject to bullying and they're given choices to say here's how I might react in this situation. So the idea, deer was good, but I kind of put up my hand on the side and said, can I just ask, what sort of

support is available to the teachers once these kids come out of this augmented reality experience, perhaps re-traumatized or traumatized what support is available for the kids? And they said, well, that's not our problem. And I was just flawed. I just thought, how are you developing something that is supposed to be? change for good and not considering the impact that that might have on everyone around that child having gone through that experience that yes, I understand the benefits of having coaching and support and experience around those sorts of issues. But then where's the aftercare?

You know, it's just... Exactly. Exactly. And also asking who informed the decision to make that product, you know, where was the consultation? Who were the people you asked? How do you know that that's a need? You know, I think that's why I kind of got involved in this organization, not because I know anything about tech, because I absolutely do not, but because I felt that I can't run away from using technology. So if I'm going to have to use it, how can I use it in a way that is going to be empowering for me and empowering for the people that I'm working to support? Yeah. Most of my thinking is around, yes, there's this marginalisation of tech. So there's a sense that

people don't have access to technology, but access to tech is seen as a human right more so these days. So how do you kind of balance the risk versus reward of making sure that people do have access to technology that's going to bring them opportunities and bring them closer to other people while safeguarding them, I guess, is front of my mind. That's a really good question. I think, you know, kids from when they're super young are having access to technology. And I know I was in a meeting this week that was talking about gambling and how many of the apps that kids are playing from a really young age, very much mimic pokey machines with their

colours. Yeah, their skinner boxes. Yeah, for sure. The colours, the way that they work, the fact that you buy something. you get a reward, you know, it feeds into that whole sort of gambling framework that we kind of see later on down the line. So it is definitely challenging, trying to balance the rewards of technology, as you say. And there are so many beneficial things, particularly for children and young people who are neurodivergent, who may not learn from reading a textbook and then writing notes.

We know that there's fantastic apps out there to support those people and even things with storing money and security of money, especially for women who have left or who are still in abusive relationships. There is more and more technology out there that helps people secure their money. I do fear that people are not being educated in how to use those technologies and we put a huge burden on teachers from a very young age to quick kids and iPad teach this kid how to do this with it and they themselves haven't been taught so we're doing them a massive disfavor and then again when you kind of move into adulthood and you're trying to manage paying bills and all of those

kinds of things and everything with Centrelink is done through your phone now and everything with Medicare has done on your phone if you're not tech literate that becomes a huge barrier to being able to access those very essential services that you need for your day-to-day life. So that's why I think we need to have more people who come from social work backgrounds and community services who can see the risks of working with technology and how it may disempower people to be able to kind of consult with the people who are building these products and make ethical choices and create technology that is working to empower people and having greater funding into educating people on how to use those technologies as well.

Yeah. Now, you've just come back from the States. You spent some time at UCLA at International Summer and Social Work. Tell me all about that because it sounds incredible. Yes, it was one of the most amazing experiences I've ever had. So my university, Western Sydney University, is one of a number of unies that is in a sort of agreement with, I think there's, there might be eight or nine universities across the world. So we have UCLA, we have a university from Canada, a university from Israel, Switzerland,

India, China and Hong Kong. And every year they meet up and have a two-week conference that focuses on a different theme of social work. So yeah, I was really lucky to be selected as one of two representatives from Western Sydney and, you know, we're the only Australian representative uni there. So we were the Aussie contingent. Aussie representatives there, which was really cool. And the theme of this year was social justice and community engagement. So it was really interesting to see how people understand social work within their own context and their own countries and how social work is performed in different countries across the world. Such a diverse group of representatives there.

So what social work looked like in India was very different to how it looked in the US and Australia. And it was fantastic. Yeah, such a great experience. And L.A. was a funny city to be in for a social work conference because it has enormous levels of homelessness or unhoused people. And yet it's still seen as one of the more liberal and progressive cities in the US. So it was very interesting perspective to have. Yeah. And it's also, you know, in terms of equality, it's hard to get around. They've had a lot of natural disasters in the last three, four years. those inequities really shine through, I think, when things like this happened. So I can imagine

that there would have been a lot to talk about. What was your contribution? What were you offered to bring in terms of learnings for the other students? Well, given the theme was social justice and community engagement, a lot of what we talked about was decolonisation. And I guess in Australia, that means working with our First Nations and Indigenous people and what that looks like when it comes to social, well, not just social work practice, but community development, health, education, anything, you know, that kind of involves humans,

and climate change and climate change response as well. So a lot of what we brought to the table was thinking about how Australia goes about decolonising, social work practice. And we shared some similarities with Canada and the US. And there were definitely some interesting conversations that came up with Israel. They were often intense conversations. But I think it could be challenging. And I think one of the things that the UCLA ambassadors told us the people who were running the program said, we need to learn to sit in these conversations that are uncomfortable and recognize whose voices are not here, whose voices are we not hearing and where

are the silences and it's in those silences and kind of stir them around a little bit and they did create some tense conversations and I think, you know, myself and the other Australian who was with me, we really had to think about what it meant to kind of go on lectures about decolonisation as white middle class young. social workers when we're talking to people from countries that have been colonized or are part of countries that are currently in the process of colonising. So it was often challenging and very much had to sort of self-reflect and ask, you know, what do we do that's not so great and how can we call ourselves out on it? Yeah. And did you learn about any other countries' social

work education or training? Like, was there anything that really stood out in terms of the way that's different to how Australian social workers are trained? Yeah, I think one thing that I kind of got, I mean, I got slapped in the face a little bit for is I kind of came out and said, you know, Australia treats social work like we're our own discipline. We have to go to university. We're accredited.

We become professionals. We become all knowers. I said, we need to deprofessionalize the profession of social work because how can we work with people who are from these very oppressed communities if we are part of the system that continues to oppress them? So I went on this rant about we need a deep professionalised social work. And then my friends from India said, well, we're actually not recognized as a profession in India and it makes it really hard to do our job.

because the government essentially doesn't know that we exist. And so I kind of had to sit back a little bit and go, okay, I definitely experienced some privilege in being able to be recognized as a working professional because I get paid. I'm represented by a national body. I get to go to university. You know, there's all these things that come with being part of a profession. And I guess the people from India were saying,

okay, we're studying social work. We're one of only a few universities in India that offer it, and we're fighting to be recognized by educational institutions and by governments as a profession so that we can go into our communities and do the same work that you're able to do. Wow, that's really, really profound. I was speaking with one of my other lovely guests, Mohammed, who's from Bangladesh, and he was saying that in his country, there is an expectation or a requirement almost. I think it's unwritten, but it's kind of how things work of if you haven't finished your study and landed a government job by the age of 30, forget about it, which was really interesting.

It's like basically if you're not in by this age, then you're not going to get in and you better just figure out something else to do, whereas at least in Australia, I feel that there continue to be opportunities for social workers well into their 50, 60s, 70s, if they want to continue working. And yes, there's always going to be a degree of ageism, but nowhere near to that degree. There's a recognition that as you develop more experience, even if that's not directly in social work that's considered a benefit to the company or the organisation. So that was a real eye opener for me as well. Yeah, definitely. Are there any other areas of social work that interest you? Where to from here,

basically, once you've finished your degree, what sort of other experience do you want to either build on or take advantage of opportunities that might come up? I am very much now in the phase and thinking, okay, what's next year going to look like for me. I love working at an advocacy and systems level. I'm very engaged in politics. I volunteered with one of the independent members in Sydney this year in the federal election and that was a great experience. I love doing the current role that I'm at in domestic and family violence.

Every time I work with a woman, you know, I think no matter what is going on in that situation or if there's a challenging encounter, I'm still always inspired by what they're able to do and what they want to do in their own lives. So I love working alongside women and children. I've also worked in schools and love working with kids and the sense of imagination and creativity that kids bring always inspires me. And I love working like a big child as well. So I kind of have to think about where I want to go. And I think that what I love, much about social work is that you don't just have to be a child protection case worker with DCJ. You know, I've had conversations with people who work in HR and wanted to offer me a role

because social workers understand how people work and what we need in workplaces to create good environments. So, yeah, I'm not sure. I definitely want to have a little bit more time in the mental health space. That's something that I've not had a lot of involvement with, but I'm working at the moment just two days a week with mental health carers, New South Wales, who are the peak body for anyone who's a carer of someone with ill mental health. And I work in the engagement side, so more connecting with services and with people. But I get a little bit of an understanding of how services, particularly hospitals, work with patients in psychiatric units. And I would like to have a bit of a go at that. I also love working alongside older Australians so I could work at aged

care as well. I think I just think that the opportunities are endless for social workers, which is why I'm such a big advocate for people who are kind of, I'm not sure what I want to do. Definitely give it a go because you don't just have to be a child protection case worker. There is so much out there and people want social workers in their workplaces, you know. It doesn't have to just be non-government and government jobs, private organizations and corporate firms will take social workers as well. Yeah, I talk a lot about a lot of roles that social workers are perfect for that aren't advertised as social work roles. I've worked in to myself where one was sort of casework policy, another was disability support and case management, but you make them

social work roles by virtue of what you've had experience in so far and what you're passionate about in terms of supporting the people that you're there to be part of. So yeah, I think absolutely right. There is such diversity and yeah, definitely encourage people to think outside the box and just look at roles that don't necessarily have social worker in the title. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think we are needed everywhere. And I really think actually that social work is a well positioned to work in more corporate and commercial organizations because I think we are so much of people who are marginalized or experiencing abuse or come from a refugee background to really change themselves and to work towards

this idea of recovery but we rarely ask people who are on the top of the ladder making decisions to sit back and reflect on themselves and the decisions that they're making in their workplaces and how that will have a trickle down effect. So, you know, I'm quite interested in working with people in positions of power and taking the same approach that I might take when I'm working with a survivor of domestic abuse and are saying, okay, well, let's reflect on your situation and let's reflect on the decisions that you're making and how is it impacting other people and how has your past experiences impacted on you? And asking them to think about like,

what position of power are you in and how is that impacting someone else in your workplace or someone else who will be impacted by a product that you're producing or, you know, something like that or a policy that you're putting in place? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Are there any resources that you would want to shout out? It sounds as though in your approaches

you use a lot of strength-based and trauma-informed resources, but is there anything in particular you'd like people to check out if they're interested in knowing more about your sort of work? I guess one of the big things that I have brought back from the United States is this idea of decolonization and questioning how we can decolonize social work. So it's a really fantastic article called decolonization is not a metaphor. I eat tuck and it really rattles that settler idea that we are in control of decolonisation, but in fact, we really need to sort of switch it over and ask Indigenous people and First Nations people to lead that change. So that's probably my main one that I would ask people to have a look at.

Yeah, I'm just thinking if there's anything else that I really engage with. I know that you have already interviewed Marie. I listen to her podcast a fair bit and I listen to the law report, but they're not really, not everyone's going to love those kinds of things. No, I think the more different media, the better because everyone is going to get something different out of it and everyone is going to have a different style in the way that they like to absorb content. So I think definitely shoutouts for other podcasts is fantastic.

Yeah, for sure. I guess on reflection of what you've been talking about, you've had the opportunity to kind to pivot career-wise and go back to your roots of wanting to work directly with people and creating change and working at a grassroots level to direct supports and to hopefully influence policy. And you've really identified how important it is to you to understand how a person's goals and concerns are impacted by much more than the present complaint or problem that they're coming to you with. And you've highlighted that there's a huge social work role in education and support for technology development. And I love, you said, you want to continue working like a big child. And what I

hear in that is you want to be curious about the world and how people work, but also bring a sense of joy and fun to your work. And I think that's absolutely something that we should all be striving for. And I encourage people to build as much experience as possible while they're still studying. You've had such incredible opportunities so far. And I think whether your future social work journey will keep you in Sydney or take you to regional areas, I think it's all exciting and it's all fun and it's all working towards that goal of supporting people and creating change. Yeah, no, thank you so much. I think you're definitely right. It's kind of trying to find that balance between the hopelessness that you can feel as a social worker

and also the sense of hope and trying to sort of reconcile those two different ideas, but always leaning towards the side of hope and knowing that you can work towards creating a better future for somebody. And I think what you've said about continuing to learn is always important. And I think, you know, every person that you meet, I always see that. as an opportunity to learn when I'm meeting a client for the very first time and I'm feeling nervous about it. I get, okay, this person has something to offer me. They're going to teach me something, even if it's something that I don't like, you know, even if I'm working with a manager and I'm like, I really don't like their style. Well, that's okay. Like I've learned, but I don't

like that approach. And so that has kind of helped ease my anxiety a little bit about moving into the workforce, if I sort of frame it as everyone has something to teach me, then it becomes less scary and I see everything as a learning opportunity. Yeah, even if the difficult learning opportunity is you've used a specific approach with someone or you've spoken with someone in a particular way that you thought was going to be helpful and then they've turned that around and called something out that is quite personal. That's a great learning opportunity and that as hard as it might be to hear is really a, you know, if that person hadn't called it out, then you would have continued doing whatever it was. So I definitely agree. I think we learn from

the people that we support as much as we do our university degree. Yeah, for sure, for sure. Before we finish up, is there anything else you wanted to say about your experience or social work journey so far? I mean, I would just encourage people who are kind of thinking about it, sitting on the fence, give it a go. Social work is not a sexy degree. It's not going to be marketing and it's not going to be law or business, but you can do so much with it and you'll always be employable and it'll give you such a unique perspective of the way that society and the world works that I think can be transferable in any discipline. Yep, absolutely. Thank you again so much, Gabby. This has been incredible and I've loved hearing about your experience and I look forward to seeing where

it takes you. No worries. Thank you so much for letting me talk. Thanks for joining me this week. If you'd like to continue this discussion or ask anything of either myself or Gabby, please visit my anchor page at anchor.fm.fm slash social work spotlight. You can find me on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter, or you can email SW Spotlight Podcast at at gmail. I'd love to hear from you. Please also let me know if there is a particular topic you'd like discussed or if you or another person you know would like to be featured on the show. Next episode's guest is Kathy, who has worked with a wide variety of populations in Sydney and in Cairns through hospital, legal, youth, mental health and drug and alcohol services, as well as

spending time volunteering overseas. She has recently moved into private practice, specialising in providing therapy in outdoor settings with a range of mental health, family dynamics and practical needs. She has also completed research into the role of the priest's wife within the Greek Orthodox Church in the Australian context, drawing from her own experience. I release a new episode every two weeks. Please subscribe to my podcast so you'll notify when this next episode is available. See you next time.