Social Work Spotlight - Episode 75: Peggy

Episode Date: January 20, 2023

In this episode I speak with Peggy, who completed her social work degree at the University of South Australia in 1994.  She worked in NSW Health for over 27 years in a variety of social work and health manager roles.  She is currently working for Queensland Health as a social worker in the Queensland Pelvic Mesh Service.  She is passionate about supporting and developing social workers and encouraging them to look outside traditional social work roles for job opportunities.Links to resources mentioned in this week’s episode:Kouzes and Posner’s The Leadership Challenge - https://www.leadershipchallenge.com/research/five-practices.aspxSenate enquiry into Pelvic Mesh - https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/Senate/Community_Affairs/MeshImplants/ReportThis episode's transcript can be viewed here:https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LU23OwGC2KhnUh1HP_M5DjuhxmD-4_8z1Z0JbRwneOI/edit?usp=sharingThanks to Kevin Macleod of incompetech.com for our theme music.

I begin today by acknowledging the Gadigal people of the Eura Nation, traditional custodians of the land on which I record this podcast, and pay my respects to their elders past and present. I extend that respect to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people listening today. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples have an intrinsic connection to this land and have cared for country for over 60,000 years, with their way of life having been devastated by colonisation. Hi and welcome to Social Work Spotlight where I showcase different areas of the profession each episode.

I'm your host, Jasmine McKay Wright, and today's guest is Peggy, who completed her social work degree at the University of South Australia in 1994. She worked in New South Wales Health for over 27 years in a variety of social work and health manager roles. She is currently working for Queensland Health as a social worker in the Queensland Pelfic Mesh Service. She is passionate about supporting and developing social workers and encouraging them to look outside traditional social work roles for job opportunities. I also want to wish Peggy a very happy birthday for last week, January 11th.

Hope it was a good one. Thanks Peggy for coming on to the podcast. I'm really looking forward to having to chat with you about your social work experience. Great. I'm really excited to talk to you about my experience. Can I ask firstly when you started as a social worker and what? brought you to the profession. Yeah, so interestingly, I was living in South Australia. That's where I grew up, country South Australia, and I'd had some experience with a niece

who had been abused. And I'm the youngest of eight children. And despite being the youngest, I was given the responsibility of supporting this niece throughout the court process. And it was during that process that I kind of felt like she wasn't really being treated well. Her experience wasn't being acknowledged properly. And so I at that point decided that I wanted to do social work. And I initially was studying and had the expectations that I'd work in child protection. And I guess life takes you in different directions. So I've never worked in child protection, interestingly,

given that that was what I was hoping to do. And I think after I finished my social work degree in South Australia, and I'd always expected that I'd end up working in the country somewhere, because that was my love. And I accidentally ended up working in Sydney. I was applying for jobs all over Australia, and I applied for a job with the old social security, which is now Centrelink, at Coffs Harbour.

And I came second in that selection process. As a new graduate, I rang to get some feedback about my interview. And they said, look, you came second because you don't have any experience, but we have a three-week locum in Tweed Heads. Would you be interested? And so I booked a Greyhound bus and from Murray Bridge, a little town in South Australia, took the long journey up through Sydney to Tweed Heads. And stayed in a caravan park in January in a caravan for three weeks.

incredibly hot. I had no car and did the locum and my supervisor at the time, Lynn Admin, I'll remember her. She said, look, Peggy, there's a locum in Marubra for four weeks and I went, where's Marubra? And she said it's in Sydney, so, you know, I looked it up and went, oh, yeah, I can do that on the way home. So I get back on the Greyhound bus, go to Sydney. Lynn has a friend who puts me up at the rocks for those four weeks.

Fantastic experience. I got to stay in the rocks. My first experience of ever being in Sydney. And I did that four week locum at Maruba Social Security. And they kept extending it and extending it. And then Lynn became the business manager for the whole of the area East Coast for social security. And she contacted me and said, Peggy, we have a locum in Maitland. Again, I said, where's Maitland? And she said, if you come up to Maitland, we'll just continue to keep you

in work. So I went and stayed in a granny flat under someone's house in Maitland and did a loco up there. And I had by that time met someone in Sydney who was keen for me to remain in Sydney. So I was in Maitland. I can't remember now, I think it might have been a couple of months before I then applied for some jobs in Sydney and got the job at Prince of Wales Hospital and never used that return Graham bus ticket back to South Australia. So it's amazing where things will take you if you're just willing to kind of try different things and try short-term jobs here and there. So yeah, and that's how it started. And from that job at Prince of Wales, I've been working in health now for 28 years. So yeah, it's pretty incredible. That's amazing.

Yeah. As I understand it, you initially started in aged care and working on the wards. How did that then progress for your other health roles? Yeah. So my initial clinical areas were actually orthopaedics and neuro neurosurgery. Great area to start in as a social worker. And I guess I worked my way up. Well, I was there for probably about six or seven years across different clinical areas. So in Prince of Wales, I had the opportunity to work in a range of clinical areas, so respiratory, ICU. emergency, you know, just anywhere that, you know, help was required. I then moved over to Prince Henry Hospital to work and Prince Henry Hospital has since closed, but I went across there to work in

rehabilitation, ended up also in spinal. And from there, I got my first team leader role at Calbury Hospital in Cogra as the team leader for rehabilitation. I then worked within that role, I think for about six years and again was just, I've been really lucky with opportunities that have come my way. I was then able to act as the head of social work at Calgary Hospital and that required me to also carry a clinical load in palliative care. And so I worked in palliative care and managed the social work department across the hospital and then ended up coming back to Prince of Wales Hospital as the age care team leader. And yes, age care is. definitely my passion. I love working in age care. The reason I love age care is the stories,

speaking with people and just hearing what they've been through in life. And I've just been taught so much by my patients. They've just, I think the one thing that stands out for me, and I always talk about this because my ex-husband is Jewish. And I'm very passionate about the story of the Holocaust and the experience of people within that. And, The stories that you hear from patience sometimes it just breaks your heart. But the resilience within that is incredible and that's what inspires me. But the one story that stands out is a man who was from, I'm pretty sure it was Poland. Now I've got to get my story right here.

I'm pretty sure he was from Poland. And he spoke of the other group of people that we don't hear a lot about within the Holocaust, where as a young man, he was taken from his family in Poland. He wasn't Jewish. and he was taken to Germany to work on the farms because all, you know, the men had gone off to fight in the war. And he never got to see his family again. So there's this whole other group of people that we really don't hear about much within

that history. And, you know, see, learning that from the patients is just really interesting and inspiring. And so I really love that part of doing social work and working within age care. So, yeah, definitely that's my passion. Yeah, those stories are really something that you. can't get from a book. Yes, you can read all sorts of stories, but it's different when you've got someone in front of you who is in quite a vulnerable position and trusting you with this knowledge. Did you find a lot of responsibility? How did you feel with being trusted with those stories?

It's interesting, isn't it? Because I didn't see it necessarily as a responsibility. I did see it as, I guess I was incredibly grateful that people felt comfortable enough to share that with me. and I actually felt privileged. Yeah, privilege is definitely the word I would use, not responsible privilege. And I guess with that privilege, though, does come responsibility because you have to honour that story. But I just felt so privileged that I was able to hear that from people firsthand.

And, yeah, like I said, that they entrusted that with me or felt comfortable enough to share that with me. And the stories that I've heard, and, you know, there was one just even last week, which just blows my mind in, terms of how people can continue to be so resilient in the face of such adversity. It's incredible. Yeah. And you moved then into a deputy department head role. What was that transition like? Interestingly, before I even went into the deputy. And I guess that's why I'm also very

passionate about social workers looking beyond just social work jobs. And again, when I said earlier, that I've been incredibly lucky with the opportunities that have come my way. When I was working down at Calvary, the position of non-admitted patient services manager became available, and I was asked if I would apply. And at the time I kind of looked at the person and said, I can't do that job. I'm a social worker manager. This is managing a huge team. It's managing multi-disciplines.

How on earth can I do that? She just said, you can do it. You've got the skills. And I went, oh, oh, okay. You just needed someone to tell you that. Yeah, so I applied and I got that job. And that was really, for me, it was fantastic to just go, yes, my social work skills are useful in non-social work roles per se. Because we have great communication skills, our ability to advocate and negotiate and the systems theories, all those things really help in other roles.

And so I was incredibly grateful that that person had encouraged me to apply for that position. And then another senior manager within the local health district, she was taking a secondment. And she approached me and said, Peggy, would you look at applying for my backfill? Again, I kind of looked at her and went, I can't do your job. You know, she was someone I admire it. She was someone I looked up to. I was like, I can't do your job.

And she goes, yes, you can. You know, you've done this and you've done that. And I'm like, oh, okay, yes, maybe I can. And I applied and I did that back bill. And again, that was completely away from social work. I was looking after strategically a number of age care services across the local health district. And then when that's a comment finished, I was going back to Calgary to go back into my

manager of non-admitted patient services. And they said, Peggy, our governance manager has resigned. Will you step up and be the government's manager? We were heading into an accreditation. And again, I kind of looked at the moment, are you sure? And they went, yeah, yeah, you can do this. And I did. I was able to pick up really quickly and easily, you know, the information and be able to liaise

and bring people on board. And we got through that accreditation really, really well. And it's actually one of my proudest moments was being able to, you know, lead the organisation to that. And I guess, again, you know, the social work skill set came to the fore. and when I met with the surveyors, it was a really lovely experience. And I look back now and often when we do go through an accreditation in healthcare, everyone is so, you know, scared and worried.

And I, having had that experience now, it doesn't bother me because I'm like going, they just want to know what it is that we do. We just have to show them. We're doing the right things. And I think if you go with that attitude as well, they're really open to hearing what you have to say and we'll listen and also acknowledge, you know, if we're not doing something well, then, hey, we need to make it. difference and we need to fix that up. And so that doesn't worry me. But again, beautiful that I had

that opportunity to be in that role. So then I went back to my non-admitted patient services manager role for a little bit and then I got a phone call from a social worker who I'd worked with for a very long time over at Prince of Wales Hospital. And she said, Peggy, the deputy head of social roles come up. Would you apply? And at that point, I was like going, oh, do it. You know, I'd been out of social work for a little while doing health management roles. And I was like, yeah, let's go back to that and I applied and I was lucky enough to get that role. I really, really enjoyed my role as deputy head of social work and I've only recently stepped away from it. But the thing I love about my role is, I'll start off by saying when I first went into that role, my office was halfway down the

corridor in our department. And I very quickly said, I don't want to sit halfway down the corridor in the department. I actually want to sit at the front of the department near the board where people someone. I need to connect with my staff. I need to be able to say hello and goodbye. They need to know that I'm there. They don't need to have to walk down the corridor to know that I'm there. They need to know that I'm available for them. So at times that's a real pain because it means you don't get a lot of rest from your staff sometimes. But for me, that's really important to connect. And certainly as someone's starting fresh back in that role, it was really important for me to connect with my staff. The other great thing about that is you pick up when something's wrong with your staff.

And I think that for me as a manager is incredibly important. I have to know what's going on for my staff and I need to be able to support them and show them that I'm there for them. The other great thing about my role as Deputy Head of Social Work is being able to have those conversations, those clinical conversations with staff. And my staff know that if they come in with a really complex case. Peggy gets up and it's the white board and we're, you know, we're putting everything up on the white board. We're circling, we're crossing out. We're, you know, we're doing that mind mapping on the board to work out what to do next. And it's that stuff that I really love. I love supporting my staff to do amazing work with patients. And I have

the utmost respect for all of my staff. The work that they do under sometimes really trying conditions. And I think the other thing for social work is that often in healthcare, if we can't solve a problem, and we don't, we're not, we can't solve everything, but people look at us to be able to fix the unfixable and it can be really challenging that pressure that's placed on staff to fix something that, you know, we can't pull housing out of a hat. We can't suddenly create a whole heap of services. where there aren't any. We're limited just as much by the limitations of our, you know,

care systems outside of health. And we have to work with that. And so just being able to say to the staff and remind them that you're absolutely doing the best that you can. In fact, you're probably doing, you know, more than you need to. But the system is broken. And being able to feed that back to the executive to take a bit of pressure off our staff as well. And also reminding them, you're part of a team.

It's not just you that has to work this out. You are part of the team. So just really being able to support and encourage the staff. So incredibly lucky to have been in that role and, yeah, like I said, admire my staff. Do you feel as though having all that experience on the different hospital wards made it easier for you to support your workers? Obviously, you had the management experience as well before you came into that role. Was it a combination of both? or was there something that you still found quite challenging stepping into that role?

I definitely think it's a combination of both. Having worked across such a variety of clinical areas, each time you work in a different clinical area, you pick up something new, knowledge, there's some new experience, sometimes even new ways of working. And so having worked in acute areas, a variety of acute areas, having worked in the sub-acute areas like your rehab, palliative care, everything builds at that knowledge and that skill set builds.

So for me to be able to have those conversations with my staff or to support them to work out where to go to next, that definitely helps. You don't necessarily need that either though. There is a skill in, I guess even when you're providing supervision, you don't have to be the clinical expert. You need to be able to support the staff member to go through what the next steps are

and get them to think about what might happen next or what if you do this, what will happen? Or tell me a little bit more about that. And sometimes they can come up with that themselves. But definitely there is an element where it does help if I've got that knowledge and say, have you thought about X, Y, Z? Oh, no, I haven't thought of that.

And that knowledge comes from having worked in such a variety of areas. I think definitely being a manager and working across the broader systems or the higher level systems has been incredibly helpful so that, for example, we have a service called Compacts in New South Wales, which provides a six-week package of care for people who are leaving hospital who might need some short-term help. And when I was working in the district in that adult services manager role

and my responsibility was Compacts at a high level, I really understand what happens in the background. And so when staff are saying, oh, there's no compacts or there's no this or whatever, and I have to, and I've got that knowledge to be able to explain that this is why and this is what we have to work with. So let's make sure that we use those packages well and that they're given to the right people because there is only a limited supply because of this reason. So having that knowledge and then being able to share that with the staff, I think is incredibly helpful. Because if you can put in perspective why something is happening, people understand and can work with it better, I believe. So having that knowledge definitely helped in that role as deputy head of social work. And I think also just having worked across Southeast Sydney, so across the one local health

district for as long as I did, I had really good connections with people. If there was an NDIS question, for example, you know, I had worked with the manager of the disability strategy unit. We had sat next to each other, you know, one of my roles and I had a really good relationship with her so I could ring her and say, hey, Nicole, how do we do this? Or, you know, what about that? And it's just easy to have those conversations when you know people. And even going back to work at Prince of Wales, the person who became the general manager, who is currently the general manager, is a nurse who I'd worked with as a new graduate on orthopedics. So I feel like I'd grown up with

her. The director of nursing, again, the person who is currently in that role, I worked with as a new grad in neuro-neuro-neurisciences. So it's really lovely that you've got. those connections with people, which actually makes it easier to have those conversations. They know you, you know them. And so I think definitely having that extensive experience within the one local health district helped enormously as well. Amazing. So it sounded as though you had a few opportunities to be part of different projects or programs while you were there. Absolutely. And that's why I saw I've been incredibly lucky. I say the past that I chose, but in some ways those past chose me.

I feel that people could recognise my skill set and my abilities and would come to me and say, would you look at doing? Which, you know, it's just lovely. I think that is the one thing. I think in social work, we sometimes really do undervalue the skills that we have. And it is wonderful when people can see that within you.

You know, sometimes I'll think, what I'm thinking is common sense. And, you know, but that's just common sense. But then you realize it's not. you know, it comes from that theory that you learned. You know, it comes from the years of experience and what you've seen and what's evolved. And it's not always common sense. And yeah, so I think I've been incredibly lucky with the opportunities that have come my way.

Yeah, amazing. And it's also important to make the most of those opportunities. Like don't just let them slide on by. So, yeah, yeah. Incredible. I'm thinking as part of that health. management role. Yes, you'd have a lot of opportunities to support and provide advocacy for your staff and leadership, but there's probably an element of having to have difficult conversations.

Did you struggle with that a little bit? Yeah, look, I like to think that, and I really do think I do this, I'm the person who can have a difficult conversation, but in a positive way. And I think That's really important. Difficult conversations have to be had. Someone perhaps doesn't get a position that they've interviewed for. Someone's perhaps not performing in a way that is expected or that is needed. Someone has done something that's perhaps inappropriate. A complaint has come through and you have to have those conversations.

And I think as a manager, you really need to be able to do that in a way that still supports your staff. and it's not to say that you are agreeing with them, but it's being able to let them know what the expectations are and helping them to see that perhaps things need to change. I can remember a particular staff member who applied for a position and didn't get it. It was a very competitive process. And at the end of the feedback, she said,

wow, I've never felt so much better after being told I didn't get a job. Because, you know, it's just unfortunate when you are, interviewing for positions and it can be that you've got two amazing people but you have to make a decision and it's not to say that that person couldn't do the job and they've got amazing skills but it's just again it's the process you have to to make a decision about who's going to take that role so yeah I think look I still struggle with difficult conversations and I still do have to prep myself for that but they're important and they need to happen as a manager and you can't get away from that. You really can't. But it's how you do that. And, you know, I've supported team leaders

with having difficult conversations, have sat with them when that's had to happen. And I guess reflecting as well as a team leader myself and having someone above me who was trying to guide me in terms of those difficult conversations, the thing I didn't like was that person above me, so my supervisor, telling me what I should do, but it's not necessarily. what I feel comfortable doing. And so I'm very cautious with my team leaders about if I am telling them to do something a particular way that I really do support them to do that and so can go with them to have that conversation.

And I guess, yeah, being able to learn from what I didn't like. I don't know if I'm making complete sense here. But, yeah, learning from what didn't work for me and making sure that I'm not doing the same thing to the people that I'm supporting is really important as well. Yeah. And I can see how your connection to the clinical work really helps with that process because it keeps you grounded. It keeps you remembering what it was like to go through those processes yourself. And then from a management perspective, you can help guide all that.

Yeah, absolutely. And I totally agree with you. And my staff would know if they were really struggling, especially during COVID, when we had staff who, you know, were off and, you know, different points teams were, you know, had limited numbers of staff because of what was happening. So I put my hand up and say, look, I'll go on the floor. Give me a case. Give me a couple cases. I'll go and do what I need to do.

And I really love that. Sometimes the team leaders would just go, Peggy, you know, they're getting a gold standard service because, you know, I'd want to do such a good job because I, you know, I don't get to go on the floor as much as I used to. And they said, you know, they're going to expect that from everyone. I'm like, so, but I really enjoyed that. and it did keep me grounded, and it made me appreciate what the staff are going through. You know, when they are struggling to find support services for people, or they, you know, they are dealing with a team who's demanding of them something that's unrealistic. I get that and I hear that, and it does help me absolutely to be a better manager.

And, you know, I have, again, stepped away from that management role for a period of time. I have taken 12 months leave from my role as Deputy Health Social Work to go back and do clinical for 12 months. and I'm currently working for the Queensland Pelvic Mesh Service as the advanced social worker and that role is purely clinical. There is no management within that. And again, I've been reminded about the challenges of being a clinician. And it's interesting within that role because I am a sole clinician within that service. And again, acknowledging those challenges of the sole clinicians as well

and how much support they really do need to stay connected to social workers. work and connected to the profession. But it's been absolutely an amazing experience as well. I'm three months into that role and I have learned so, so much and again have been privileged to hear the stories of women whose lives have been impacted by pelvic mesh. So yeah, I think going back to being a clinician has been wonderful. And I know that's not something that I want to do forever because what it's also shown me is that I miss being a manager. I really miss that connection to my staff, which is wonderful that I've been able to acknowledge that and to take some time away from being a manager to appreciate that. But I think, again, all that I'm learning

within this will just make me a better manager in the future. So yeah. Yeah. Well, that's a fantastic transition. Thank you for facilitating that for me. I understand a little bit about pelvic mesh and some of the complications. Can you walk me through why the program was set up in the first place, why they thought they needed a social worker as well? Yeah. So there was a Senate inquiry that was held because there was a number of complaints that were coming through in relation to complications that women were experiencing as a result of having pelvic mesh put into their bodies. Now pelvic mesh, It's kind of like, I guess, a strap or a ban that's put in women who had been suffering from incontinence or prolapse. And it was a very common thing that was done.

And what was being noticed, though, is that for a small proportion, but a large number, because of the number of pelvic mesh operations that occurred, experienced quite significant complications. So the incontinence may have got worse. the significant pain not only in the area where the mesh had been implanted, but that pain was also in other parts of the body, so back hips, those kind of things. The women really struggled, for some women, the concept of having sexual intercourse is incredibly painful, so they couldn't sit for long periods of time, couldn't go out for fear

of being incontinent. And so for a lot of the women that I talk to, it's really had a significant impact on their lives. They're no longer able to work. Some of them have lost relationships. Some of them have lost homes because of the financial implications of being able to work.

Anxiety and depression is quite a significant impact as well for those women. So from the Senate inquiry, all those stories came out from women and each state was given money to set up a service to provide support to women who did have the complications from pelvic mesh. So each state, the service is set up slightly differently. I love the way it's set up in Queensland. I think it's fantastic.

There is one central location. It's here in the southeast of Queensland on the Gold Coast at Rabina Hospital, and I sit at Varsity Lakes Day Hospital. We have an allied health team, so we have a physiotherapist. two psychologists, a pharmacist and myself in social work. And we have obviously the nurses who specialize in pelvic mesh and you're a gynecologists as well. So great multidisciplinary team. And I cover the whole of Queensland and northern New South Wales. So it's a huge area. And most of my work is phone calls to women, providing that support. It's interesting when I first came

into the role. The sense I got from the team is that they perhaps didn't fully understand what social work could offer. Even though they'd been a social worker in the role previously, I think their understanding what social work did was very basic. You know, you're just going to help people with their transport down to Rabina for the treatment or you're just going to, you know, do the practical stuff. And there's so much more than that. And being able to connect with women and again hearing their stories, listening to them, providing some counselling around the impacts and certainly the practical aspect of it is there as well and advocating for them to get the support that they need not only with the transport costs because it can be

quite significant the cost to come down and have the treatment but also with other services to help them at home. A lot of them are unaware of the kind of support that they can get. And it's a challenging space for those people under the age of 65 because they really only have the NDIS in terms of accessing, or that there is another support service that provides some limited support at home. But access to the NDIS is a real challenge for women with complications from MES because it's not considered a disability per se. So that can be really challenging.

But yes, so I think there's a whole lot more that social work can offer. And, you know, it's seen as an important part of the service, which is just fantastic. Yeah, great. It sounds as though you're just loving that clinical sense. while you're missing the management, just being able to get back to some of that hands-on work with people. Yeah, it's been fantastic. And again, like I said,

just that privilege of hearing the stories, what women have shared with me. And there was a woman I spoke to a little while ago who we spoke for over an hour, and not once did we talk about her pelvic mesh. That was probably quite refreshing for her. Yeah, and we got to the end of it and I said, we've not even gone where we've needed to go. But, you know, she'd had this incredibly challenging experience with a husband who had committed suicide.

And she just really needed to be talking about that. That was her priority. You know, we talk about the basics of social work of being where the client did that. That's what she was at. You know, that wasn't, the pelvic mesh stuff came later. But for her, at that point in time, that's what she needed to talk about. she hadn't really been given the opportunity to tell that story to a, you know, a professional. And so being able to hear that and to sit with that and to not worry that we hadn't got to the mesh either.

You know, yes, we joked about it at the end. But that wasn't her priority at that point in time. There was so much else going on in her life. So, yeah, and again, just incredibly privileged to hear and be able to support her through that process as well. And again, I sat back and often will tell. women this, at least every day there is one woman that I'm inspired by, you know, in terms of their resilience and what they've been able to overcome or they actually just can keep going, given everything that's going on, you know, they wake up every day, you know, that in itself

is resilience. And I will tell them, I'll say, you're, you're my inspiration for the day. You know, it's just incredible. And I, yeah, I have so much respect for them and learn so much from what they're able to do and how they're able to manage, given everything that they've got going on in their lives. So, yeah. Is there any indication that the program or the funding will be extended? Do you know what the future that looks like? So look, I don't believe, now I could be slightly wrong here,

and I might need to actually look this up just to be absolutely certain. But I don't believe the surgery is using the particular kind of mesh that caused that. So there will be a point where there are no new women coming forward. So there will be an end date for this particular program. And we have seen referral numbers start to decline. We've seen so many of the women already. There still is every now and again. There'll be pockets of women that we haven't, for whatever reason, connected with.

So Queensland Health has tried very hard to let women know about the service. So letters have been sent by various hospitals where the surgery had taken place. But if women have changed addresses, you know, they haven't been able to get that information. Shine Lawyers is one of the law firms that have taken on a class action. They've also sent letters to various women to let them know. I have not seen the letters, but women tell me that that's how they knew about the services. They received a letter from Shine lawyers. And from that, you know, they were advised that they were advised that they were.

was the Queensland Public Mesh Service and they could then get a referral and be connected with us. And other women have seen it through advertising. There is a Facebook page where women have also connected with and found out about the service. There's been some stories on like a current affair. There was something in one of the magazines a few years back. So women have found out about the service in various ways, but I'm sure there are still some women out there who are experiencing these complications. And for many of the women, they talk about actually going to their doctor regularly and complaining

of a UTI, but there's not being a UTI there. You know, they've got the feeling that there's a UTI, but it's not, that the pain and they can't work out where the pain is coming from. And it's not until they get that letter or that something prompts them and they go, oh my gosh, could it be the mesh? And they'll talk about not being believed by the doctors and feeling crazy, like they're making these symptoms up. And so it's often a real sense of relief.

that, oh my gosh, I understand now what it is or why I've been experiencing this. And that relief for them is quite incredible. So that's a very common thing that happens. But yes, I think there will be women out there who perhaps don't realize that the mesh could be causing the complications and haven't been connected to our service. But I'd say that's a small number now. And we've talked about that as a team of how can we still make sure that we have got to as many women as we possibly can.

I know in the past you've talked a lot about compassion fatigue and vicarious trauma. You mentioned the Holocaust survivors in their stories. I can imagine a lot of management includes developing workplace support strategies for your staff. How do you personally see that working in both the previous role and the current role? is there something that you can do to safeguard yourself and the people that you work with when you're hearing these quite traumatic stories? Look, definitely clinical supervision is incredibly important. And so, yes, I have been involved in some research looking at vicarious trauma and compassion fatigue

for social workers in acute hospitals. And at the hospital where I was working, it very much is that the team leader is the clinical supervisor. And the research was telling us that that really shouldn't necessarily be the case and that people need to be given the opportunity to choose who they're getting that supervision from. So the research was conducted over a number of hospitals within South East Sydney Local Health District and a couple of those hospitals have implemented some changes around how they provide clinical supervision that it isn't just purely the team leader who provides that. And part of that is around if the team leader is having to have those difficult conversations

or if there is any kind of concern about someone's performance, then is that a bit of a conflict in terms of being able to provide that clinical supervision and that support. At Prince of Wales, we haven't yet implemented that. But I definitely see the value in it. And for us, it was about how do you still, because when you're working in an acute care setting, it can be a real challenge from a time perspective. So if you're having to meet with a supervisor and a team leader, because the team leader still needs to be connected in some way to their staff to know what's going on, to know about workloads.

So there still has to be some level of connection. And I think we were struggling with that. And I think that's something that if I was to return to that role, and that is definitely something that we do need to look at. because I think having stepped away from it, again, I think that's where it is good to step away and stop and reflect and look back. And I go, that is something that I think needs to be examined more closely. And I think we need to be able to give people choice around who they are supervised by because someone is your team leader doesn't mean they're going to be the right supervisor for you. And being able to find someone who that you can connect with, that you feel comfortable

to have those conversations and that you can be vulnerable with is incredibly important. and that's not always going to be that person who is assigned your team leader. So that's definitely important. I think also encouraging self-care for staff and providing that space where they can have some time out and being okay with that within the workplace. So we had this little room set up, not that it was used that often, but it was used every now and again where you could go in and you could put some nice music on. You could take 15, 20, 30 minutes out of your day and just sit, relax.

There was some essential oils and there was a demister, I think, if that what they're called, you know, where you can get the oils going through the air. You know, we had the books where you could do some, you know, mindful coloring in. But also just if staff were just needing to go for a walk, you know, allowing them to do that or just take a break or, you know, if someone had a really difficult case, we might talk to them about perhaps needing to go home early or whatever. So I think it's really being able to check in with your staff. And I guess, you know, that goes back to what I was saying at the very beginning is when I'm

saying hello to my staff and I'm picking up. up that that hello is not their normal hello tone. It's checking in with them and making sure that, you know, bringing them in, hey, talk to me, tell me what's going on for you. And for them to just even be heard and have that understanding or for me to say, hey, look, I can see that your team is stretched today. Give me a couple of cases. I'm going to go out and help you guys. As a manager, that's how you support your staff. You know, it's acknowledging that their workload is incredibly high and saying, you know, what can we do to try and resolve that? Do we need to bring in? and it's difficult to bring in extra resources.

It's not that simple. But can we look at restructuring things for a couple of days to try and help you? So as a manager, that's what's incredibly important. But also acknowledging that sometimes it is incredibly hard and sometimes patients can frustrate you. That's okay. I think we just have to acknowledge that and sit with that and not beat ourselves up about that either.

It's sometimes really hard work. Definitely encouraging people to have. take holidays, definitely encouraging people to leave work on time. Like, they hated that. I would give them a call. Why are you still here? It's five o'clock. Get out. And so they'd almost dread the call or they'd pick up the phone and go, don't worry, Peggy, I'm leaving. So I think, you know, just making sure that people are getting those breaks, taking that time out. I was a shocker. And so sometimes I need someone to be checking in on me as well. And I think that's really important too. Like I actually did appreciate it when staff would do that back at me and say,

hey, Peggy, you're telling us to leave, but why are you still here? You know, you get out. Or even someone saying, come on, get up, let's go for a walk or come on, let's just drag you out to lunch, or can I get you lunch because I'd work through it. So, you know, I think it works both ways. I think if staff are able to check in on me, that's really lovely too. And I appreciated that as a manager, definitely. Yeah. What support do you need in your current role, especially given that you're the sole clinician in that area? Yeah, look, and I have to say I've been really bad at this. There's not a really clear defined, and this is again one of the problems, I think, when you are a sole practitioner, and there's not those clear lines of supervision. And that does worry me

within the current role I'm in. I haven't reached out at this point for supervision, but have realized, particularly after a couple of challenging conversations I've had, when I say challenging, you know, the content of the conversation has been quite heavy. I will be seeking external supervision and paying for that myself. And I feel that I'm definitely needing that. I've just been terribly slack at getting that organised to begin with. But in terms of being up to provide, you know, and it is also about providing a safe service to someone as well.

Like you're getting that level of support that you need. So, you know, I'm telling myself off right now that I haven't done it. And I did tell myself off last week. But yes, I do need to do that. But it is a challenge when you are a sole clinician and those clear lines of professional supervision aren't within those roles. Yeah, that always does worry me.

Given that you've had quite a bit of experience now with the recruitment process, do you have any suggestions for people who are applying for jobs, especially those who keep getting told you were a close second, which is incredibly frustrating? I love assisting.

people to practice interviewing skills and be applying for jobs. And in fact, I did it last week with an administration assistant in my current role. It was one of the nurses who said, go and speak to Peggy. She does recruiting all the time. And she came and spoke to me and she said, Peggy, I really struggle in interviews. I can't remember what it is that I'm needing to tell. I don't, you know, sell myself well or whatever. And I said, okay, give me a copy of your position description of the job that you're going for.

let me do some mock questions for you and then let me give you some feedback and some suggestions about what you need to do. And I'll explain what I did with her because I think this is what I do with everyone where this happens. And I would do this with my staff and sometimes people would say, Peggy, why are you doing that? Because it means they're going to be leaving. And I'm like going, but if that means they're going to grow, I prefer they go off and grow, then be stuck in a job and not growing and therefore becoming unhappy. Like I want them to be happy. I want people to grow. So I'm happy to support whatever it is that they need to do. So when you're looking at position descriptions, questions should be formed around the position

description for a start. So if you look at that, just think about what the job role entails. Generally speaking, they're going to definitely ask you a question around what your skills and attributes are. So I say to people, make a list. If you struggle to work out what your skills or what you're good at or what it is that people see in you, ask people, go and ask five people to give you three key words about what they think of you as a social worker or what they think as you personally. Write those down. Go with that list and have that with you to prompt you to be able to say what you can do. Really focus on the skills that you have. Really focus on that. But I say write them down. Have that prepped and prepared. There's always going to be that kind of question that comes out.

There's likely to be a question around what you've done well with a particular case. So have a scenario where, you know, you really clearly articulate what it is that you did well with that case, why it was that you did well and how did you know that you did well with that case? I often will throw in the question of tell me about a case where you didn't do so well because I want to know that you can reflect and that you can learn from your experiences. So I will also say to people, make sure you write one of those down. And if you have them written down beforehand and you've prepped that, it helps you in the interview. You're not having to think like, oh my God, what was that case where I did really well? or you can really just go straight to it.

Often there are cases about quality improvement, and it doesn't have to be huge, but you just need to know about what the quality cycle is and have in your mind what the processes are and really just think about how you may have improved something using each of the steps in the cycle. What are the questions? Conflict. When you've had conflict with someone,

really go with something that you've prepared. it. My other advice to people is when you're going into the interview, don't be afraid to take pen and paper in. I always do it. People think, oh, can I? Am I allowed to? And I'll say, absolutely. Like, there's nothing that says it's illegal for you to take pen and paper into an interview. And if you're not given the questions beforehand, I'm very visual. So I need to be able to see the question, to be able to answer it fully and to make sure that I'm answering it. So I will say, look, I hope you don't mind. I'm just going to be able to be able to answer it. I'm just going to be able to answer it. I'm just going to be able to be able to answer it. I'm writing these questions down. It just helps me to think. And while you're writing it down, it does give you that time, it gives you that space, you know, where the silence is okay, because you're writing something down. Underline the key words. Go back to that and make sure. The other tip is to have a drink of water. They will always give you a cup of water and if they don't, ask them for one. And if you're stuck, stop, take a sip. And again, it just gives you time for that brain to kick in and to come up with an answer. So definitely ring for feedback is the

other thing I would say and really listen to that feedback and be open to it. And hopefully, look, it can be challenging as a manager, especially I have had, you know, on occasions where there's been one job and there's been 32 applications. And unfortunately, I don't have the time as much as I'd like to give feedback to absolutely everyone on that. But if I can, I will and spent a lot of time. with various staff, giving them feedback at different points. And those people have then reapplied the jobs and got jobs with us. You know, there was one social worker who had had a very experienced life before doing social work, you know, had worked in journalism and, you know, had taught languages and all that

kind of thing. And so when he was being interviewed, that's what he kept bringing to the forefront. I'm like, but this is a social work job. You need to be telling me about your social work skills. Yes, you can bring that in. but I really need to hear what you've done as a social worker. And so giving him some really honest feedback, but constructive feedback about what he'd need to do.

And he soaked that all up and he took it on board. And the next time he interviewed, it was brilliant. And he was much more focused in terms of that social work experience. And we ended up employing him. So definitely ring for the feedback, particularly if you have interviewed and have come second. But don't be disillusioned by that. Like take the positives as well. Sometimes that's just the reality that just,

It might be one slight thing that's just tipped you. Don't give up. Don't be disillusioned. And particularly for new graduates, it can be a real challenge getting into, particularly into health. Sometimes the culling process can be incredibly tough. Like I said, if we've got 32 applications for one position, we're going to cull really competitively. So if you haven't done a student placement, for example, in health, you may not even get

an interview, which is really, really sad. what I say to those people is look at opportunities like I did to take that three-week logan, to do that short-term contract, it might not be what you're wanting at that point in time, but it's going to be the stepping stone to something else. Absolutely. That's really helpful. Thank you. And I think also, as you said, reinforcing that interview processes can be as much about networking as they are about recruiting. And I've been on the receiving end of that where my very first role that I applied for, They called and said, we found someone else for this role, but we really want you for this other

role that hadn't even been advertised. So they're always keeping in mind, is this person a good fit for our organisation, not just for that position? Absolutely. And we've had that as well where, you know, we've interviewed and the person who's come second, the team leader who was in that particular interview just said to me, I know this person's come second, Peggy, but we want her in our department. At some point, we need to work out how we can get her in.

And, you know, she was on an eligibility list and, you know, we asked and she eventually took a role within the department. So absolutely, you're right. Just because you come second doesn't mean that there won't be opportunities that come your way. So, yeah, definitely. Where to from here for you, if time and money weren't an option, I know you've got this role for the next, say, nine months, potential to go back to the deputy head role. But you said earlier that you were interested in regional and rural work. Are there any other types of social work that you'd like to have a go at?

Interesting, you said if time and money were not an issue, I would love to be working to support people in that recruitment phase, to be honest. Okay. And, you know, almost being a mentor for people in terms of getting jobs, working with them on their interview skills, interview techniques, getting them to acknowledge the skills that they have and looking beyond social work for jobs as well.

So, yeah, if time and money were not an issue, that's what I would love to be doing, is really supporting social workers to grow and to acknowledge and appreciate the skills that they have and to find meaningful work, not just within social work, but in other bigger roles where they can have a huge impact on the world, really. So, yeah, that's what I would love to do if time and money were not an issue. It's interesting. I think I'm not entirely certain what I'm going to be doing next. It definitely is the opportunity for me to go back into that deputy head of social work role, and it's still probably too early for me to make a call on that.

I am just looking at what's out there, and I truly do believe things happening for a reason. Like I think there's a reason I came up to the Gold Coast, and there'll be a reason that the next thing happens for me, whatever that might be. And if it is to go back and be the deputy head of social work, then that's what it's meant to be. So I'm open to whatever might come my way, but definitely there'll be an element of some form of management

or just even working within a solid team because I really do miss that. As much as within the Queensland pelvic mesh service, there is a team. It's a different type of team experience, particularly when I'm in an office making phone calls to women all over Queensland all day. I miss that incidental conversations that happen regularly with staff around what's going on. So I definitely think that it will entail some form of being a manager or being a leader of some description. Because, yeah, I do really miss that. And I miss supporting staff, really.

Yeah. Something I love. Yeah. If anyone was interested in going off and doing their own reading or viewing or listening about the type of work that you do, is there any way you direct them, whether it's about the pelvic mesh or about leadership roles or any training that maybe people can look into. Yeah, look, I have to say for me, and again, I guess I'm lucky working within health because they do provide some fantastic training opportunities and they want to grow leaders within health. And so within South East Sydney Local Health District, I did what was called the Effective Leadership Program. I think it has a different name now, but I think within every health district there is a leadership course and I definitely encourage people to go and do that.

The other thing I did and I'm incredibly grateful I did as well was the ASW supervision course. And I think that really helped me to become a better supervisor and got some really fantastic feedback from that. And again, you've got to be open to have someone watch you provide supervision and be given that feedback. So incredibly grateful for that. I haven't done much outside of health in terms of training. The Leadership Challenge is a book by Coosers and Posner where they discuss the five practices of exemplary leadership. Modeling the way, being able to put your hand up and say, I'm prepared to go and get dirty as well. I'll take some clinical load.

Incredibly important. Inspiring a shared vision. Challenging the process. Enabling others to act. Encouraging the heart. For me, that's probably been the biggest thing that I've got out of the process. that book and that leadership program is that you still have to have a heart. You can't just be this brutal kind of leader who says this is how it's got to be.

You've still got to have an understanding of what your staff are going through. And for me, that was just an incredibly important learning. So they're the five things that they talk about. And I think they really fit well with social work, which I love. And definitely that has inspired me in terms of. of my leadership style. So that would definitely be something I would be encouraging people to get a hold of and having a read of. So yeah. Wonderful. Thank you. Is there anything else before we finish up that you wanted to talk about, whether it's about your experience in the current role, the previous

role, words of advice for social workers in general? I think the only words of advice, and I alluded to this earlier, it's interesting when you're working health and nursing are really good at this. things that we take for granted that we do and we don't talk about enough, we don't research, we don't publish enough as social workers. For example, patient-centered care has become this big thing and nursing are really leading the way in terms of the research and the study and whatever and it's just kind of like I sit back and go, we've been doing patient-centered care forever. We don't question it. We don't kind of go, but we need to. I think we need to stop and look at what is it that we do that's different and we need to in some way be the leaders in that

field and not take a step back. And it's really hard within social work when you are so busy from a clinical perspective to find time to do research. But the wonderful thing having done the research we did around the vicarious trauma and compassion fatigue was being able to partner with a university to do that research and to look at where we can seek funding to be able to backfill people to do research. That's an area that we need to get better at. We need to partner more and we need to look at seeking funding to enable that research to happen and we need to be leading the way in the stuff that we do, not allowing other disciplines to be taking that forward when that's what we've been doing forever. So yeah. Yeah. No, it's our bread and butter. Yeah.

I really love how you've highlighted just taking experiences as they come to you initially with those locums, building connections and just continuing to advance the career based on that. You've talked about the privilege of hearing stories of patients, but also through that, that gives you an opportunity to help them feel comfortable and to trust you within that process, whether it's on a therapeutic level or on a practical level. And you've really acknowledged the transferability of social work skills across roles. So it's, in a sense, expanding our understanding of the profession and the opportunities that we can provide to different areas.

I think in the role that you've got at the moment, yes, the funding might run out, but you've created sustainable support. So even with the things like the Facebook groups and other informal things that you've suggested, that creates that opportunity for people to be linking together and to understanding what supports are out there well after that funding is gone. So I think that's really important. And I think what I'm also hearing is that through your management lens, you've got a really good understanding from the social work training and social work experience

of how the pieces fit together and how the strategies can be put in place to enable that support for people, both your staff members and the people that you support. So it's around articulating the capacity of social work and the profession in those various areas. So I think it's wonderful. You've demonstrated the need as a leader to really have that compassion and flexibility, but also creating a culture where it's okay to put yourself. first and continuing to grow professionally. So if it means letting someone go to another opportunity,

that's great for them and they can bring what they've learned while they've worked with you to that setting. So I think it's incredibly, as I said, compassionate, but also generous in the way that you've done your work. And I'm sure you've had a massive impact on people that you've supported and hopefully also been a sort of role model for how good leadership can, be done in those areas for social workers who are just starting to find their feet and wanting to build themselves up as leaders potentially. Yeah. And look, I definitely hope that that's the case. I hope that, yeah, people do look at my leadership and go, yeah, I want to lead like Peggy has led. I think that would just be lovely. Yeah. And like I said, I just have the utmost respect for the

social workers who have worked, I say under me, but I don't even like using that term. Like, you know, I do see them as colleagues realistically. The impact that they've had on patients and their ability to advocate for what clients need just blows me away. They just do amazing work and I'm always incredibly proud to be a social worker and have been incredibly proud of the teams. that I've worked with. Yeah, I think they're incredible and I'm inspired by them as much as I hope I inspire them.

Yeah. Brilliant. Thank you again, Peggy, so much for meeting with me. I've loved hearing your story and I look forward to seeing where it takes you. I feel like there are so many other opportunities out there for you, just waiting for you to find them or for them to find you. Yeah, hopefully they find me. But yeah, absolutely.

just be open to what comes your way and have trust in your skills and your knowledge and know that that can make such a difference. And thank you. It's been absolutely lovely talking with you today as well and being able to share my story. Yeah. Thank you again. Thanks for joining me this week. If you would like to continue this discussion or ask anything of either myself or Peggy,

please visit my anchor page at anchor. slash social work spotlight. You can find me on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter, or you can email SW Spotlight Podcast at gmail.com. I'd love to hear from you. Please also let me know if there is a particular topic you'd like discussed, or if you or another person you know would like to be featured on the show. Next episode's guest is Cherie, an accredited mental health social worker who has over 15 years experience working with children, adolescents, and adults, primarily working in the field of trauma. focusing on sexual assault and domestic violence. In addition to her counselling role,

Sheree provides clinical supervision as well as mentoring, training and resources for social workers wanting to develop their own private practice. I release a new episode every two weeks. Please subscribe to my podcast so you're notified when this next episode is available. See you next time.