Social Work Spotlight - Episode 77: Claire M

Episode Date: February 17, 2023

In this episode I speak with Claire, a community based social worker with experience initially in mental health before moving into the field of criminal justice. She has predominantly provided long term case management and support for women as they transition from prison back into the community. Claire is a strong advocate for assisting people to develop pathways and identities outside of the criminal justice system to reduce the numbers of people, particularly First Nations peoples cycling in and out of our prisons.Links to resources mentioned in this week’s episode:Incarceration Nation - https://incarcerationnation.com.au/Community Restorative Centre - https://www.crcnsw.org.au/CRC’s ‘Jailbreak’ radio program - https://www.crcnsw.org.au/services/jailbreak-radio/Paper Chained: a journal of expression from behind the bars - https://www.paperchained.com/This episode's transcript can be viewed here:https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wyYbF7lQtl8bZANVHBsRvBatDqO7V-mHnCbfqXpix1o/edit?usp=sharingThanks to Kevin Macleod of incompetech.com for our theme music.

I begin today by acknowledging the Gadigal people of the Eura Nation, traditional custodians of the land on which I record this podcast, and pay my respects to their elders past and present. I extend that respect to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people listening today. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples have an intrinsic connection to this land and have cared for country for over 60,000 years, with their way of life having been devastated by colonisation. Hi and welcome to Social Work Spotlight where I showcase different areas of the profession each episode.

I'm your host, Yasmin McKee Wright, and today's guest is Claire, a community-based social worker with experience initially in mental health before moving into the field of criminal justice. She has predominantly provided long-term case management and support for women as they transition from prison back into the community. Claire is a strong advocate for assisting people to develop part. pathways and identities outside of the criminal justice system to reduce the numbers of people, particularly First Nations people, cycling in and out of our prisons. Claire recently moved into a team leader role providing support and mentoring to frontline staff

and playing a significant role in the leadership and successful service delivery of programs for people leaving prison. In addition to this, Claire has for the last six years served as a volunteer board member at Phoebe House, a specialist residential treatment. program for women. Hi Claire, and lovely to meet with you today. Thank you so much for coming on to the podcast. You too.

Thanks for having me. I'd love to know firstly when you began as a social worker and what drew you to the profession. I have been a social worker since 2012, I think I graduated. So almost 10 years, which is a bit scary and it seems to have gone really quickly. I can't believe it's been 10 years. Yeah. I mean, there's no real particular. thing that drove me to social work. I feel like I'm somebody who has just sort of stumbled into it.

I sort of, you know, I was one of those people at school that sort of gravitated towards humanities subjects and sort of had in my mind, you know, where could I take this area of interest? And obviously social work is the obvious thing that comes to mind. But I was told at school by the career's counsellor that I wouldn't get the marks to get into a social work degree, which was obviously wrong. So that sort of didn't really, I stopped thinking about it for a while and I ended up doing a Bachelor of Arts degree and again gravitated towards the humanities subjects and then sort of decided after about three or so years at uni, you know, maybe I am going to pursue this. But at that point, I didn't even really know what kind of roles would interest me, what area of social work would

interest me. I just sort of went with the flow, if that makes sense. So in terms of, I'm just interested as to how that works, because I did the combined art social work, and it sounds as though you did the arts and then you enrolled in the social work. Yeah. Does it operate in terms of years and subjects the same way, as long as you've got the prerext, within your arts degree, you just do the two years of social work? Is that right? Yeah, so I ended up with two years to go because of the subjects that I'd done in my arts degree that I could transfer over. I think there was only one extra subject, a psychology subject that I needed to complete.

So they said to me, you can do it in two years if you do this psychology subject on top of your placements, which I did. Wow. It was a lot, but it was either that or I was going to do a whole other semester and I just wasn't willing to do that. So I just crammed it in. No, not for one subject. Yeah, no. Oh, amazing. So you dived into social work and probably very immediately got thrown into a placement. What was that like? Yeah, it was very interesting. I mean, I was super lucky to have an amazing first placement. I think it gave me a really good, broad experience of dipping my toes in the water. I was placed at Newtown Neighborhood Centre. in the inner west of Sydney and they put me in the front desk sort of area where people

would pop in, drop in and ask for information, referral. So I got sort of a pretty good understanding of, I mean, the issues in the inner west, particularly of homelessness and mental health and drug and alcohol issues, domestic violence, which obviously for a first placement is quite confronting. But I think it was pretty fulfilling for a first placement, I would say. Yeah, did that kind of then shift your focus in a particular area for what you wanted to do in your second placement? Definitely. I mean, I think I worked out from that point that I, well, I never really saw myself going into the stereotypical social work roles. You know, you think hospital social workers or child protection and I just even starting a social worker, I didn't, I never saw myself in those. roles, but I just didn't know what else was out there, obviously. So I think that first placement

sort of cemented in me that I sort of wanted to focus more on community work in non-government organisations, which is obviously what I've kept on with for last 10 years. Yeah. Yeah, so what was that second placement? What were you doing? I was at the Marrickville Community Mental Health team, Although it was obviously that's a government department, New South Wales Health, I think it was great that it was community-based. I got that experience of outreach work. I got a really good sense of the barriers to people accessing mental health treatment, particularly obviously for people with like comorbidities, you know, intellectual disability,

cognitive impairments and drug and alcohol use. So it really sort of broadened my understanding of the issue. issues that I was seeing in my first placement. I got quite a introductory sort of understanding. And then I got to build on that in my second placement and do more case management, which was great. And I can imagine within that mental health setting, you've got a lot of things like community treatment orders,

legal side of things, report writing. And that then I can imagine catapulted you into having this interest in law and justice and trying to understand. and the factors that led to people getting involved in the legal system. Yes, definitely, definitely. And maybe also some of the misunderstandings of some people's behaviors and presentations and obviously how that leads to contact with police and imprisonment, essentially. Yeah.

Yeah. You're also, in addition to your current role, which will come to, I notice you're also a volunteer board member for Phoebe House, which is accommodation, alcohol and drug service. So I can really see that this is your niche. This is where your passion lies. You're really wanting to enable people to have the same opportunities that everyone else has, regardless of whether they have a diagnosis

or a criminal background. What then prompted you to move into your current space once you'd finished your studies? After I finished studying, I think I was still a bit unsure of my abilities. I wasn't necessarily that confident and I moved into sort of a support worker role. It was the Housing and Accommodation Support Initiative through New Horizons and I told myself, you know, I'm going to be here for 12 months and I'm just going to build up my own confidence. I'm going to have something on my CV. So I feel better equipped to apply for another role.

And I stuck to that. It was pretty much bang on 12 months. And I think I was, to be blunt, I was quite bored in that role. I felt quite limited in what I could do in terms of autonomy in the role and the sense of responsibility I had in that role. And I was looking around at different options at the time. And when I saw the role going at the organization of it for now, community restorative center. And it was obviously working with women on release from prison, in an outreach role. I thought, well, I definitely wouldn't be bored there. So I applied for it and I definitely have found my passion and that's why I just have never left, which is obviously unusual for a community based social worker in a non-government organisation. Yeah. When it's a good fit, it's a good fit

though, right? Yeah, definitely. So you're supporting people who are transitioning from prison to community. Yes. What does that look like? What sort of support do people generally need? Generally, my specialty is working with women, but a lot of men obviously experience the same issues or needs when they're released from prison. But typically, you know, these are some of the most vulnerable people in our community and the needs are very complex. You know, there's high rates of homelessness and mental illness, drug and alcohol issues, a huge amount of trauma that can extend to sexual assault and domestic violence and child with sexual abuse and institutional abuse is a major factor. You know, working particularly with women, there's a lot of grief and loss

around parenting and the loss of the custody of their children, breakdown in families. Gosh, It's just quite never-ending, to be honest, and every person is different, but that is the, to put it in a nutshell, there are a lot of the issues that we find people are facing who've experienced a period of imprisonment. Yeah, so it sounds as though they're quite vulnerable people, even before they entered the criminal justice system and then the institutional abuse, as you've suggested, has just impacted that further. Yes, definitely. It adds another layer of complexity. that's for sure. But you're working for a non-government organization with government funding. Do you feel as though, and I might just be projecting my own experience with non-government organizations on you, but do you feel that there's a benefit to having that separation to some

extent, not working for the government but being, I guess, accountable in some way? Oh, I mean, absolutely. I feel like being in this space and working in a non-government. government organization, you have a lot more opportunity for advocacy and maybe making some people feel a bit uncomfortable. And I mean other services, asking the questions, really pursuing what's right for clients. And I think sometimes that can be a bit limiting when you're working in a government organization. So I think that's part of what I really love about this role in that you can maybe sometimes not so politely. Be a really strong advocate and I just love that. I think there's just so many

opportunities for that in this role. Amazing. It sounds like there's a real over-representation of women, as you suggested in the system, but I can imagine also people who identify as Aboriginal, Torres Strait Islander. Yeah. What are the larger demographics that you would normally see? I mean, definitely Aboriginal women are the fastest-growing prison population, so I think that says a lot in itself. What are the gaps in addressing the needs for Aboriginal women in the community that's leading to high rates of imprisonment? I think a large part of that is, I mean, you can't ignore it, that particularly in New South Wales, the rates of child removals of Aboriginal children is just astronomical. And that obviously has a flow on effect. And, you know, you've got women

experiencing domestic violence, unaddressed mental health issues, significant amounts of trauma. and that includes the trauma of ongoing effects of colonisation and oppression and over-policing. And it all contributes. It all plays a factor in why we're seeing such high proportion of Aboriginal women in prison. You know, I've consistently over, you know, a nine-year period, my caseload for women has been probably 80% Aboriginal women at any one time. It's huge. Yeah, and the role that I've been in for this long has obviously focused on women,

but women are in the inner city area, so inner city, east and suburbs, inner west. So, I mean, that's massive and that can't be ignored. And that's not a trend that's changing, which is quite scary. Yeah. Do you have any capacity to harness energy within the community? I'm thinking, are there volunteer supports that we can be implementing in these prison settings? or in supporting people with that transition process, or are there too many risks associated with that, do you think?

Yeah, there are other organisations, like the Women's Justice Network, is a big buyer in that space. That's specifically providing one-on-one mentoring to women leaving prison, and I know they have great outcomes for the women that they support in that capacity. I mean, they do more than that, but that's the crux of their service delivery as far as I'm aware. So, yeah, there are other things, happening, but just not funding-wise. It's just not funded. You know, I remember someone who used to

work at CRC, who was responsible for a long time of putting in funding submissions. And I would just never forget how she put it. You know, she said, well, I mean, when you're putting in grant applications to work with people from prison, it's just not the most sexy cause. Like, people aren't really, you know, jumping up and down to associate themselves with working with people from prison, which is unfortunately true. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Given that you've got all this experience and you are trying to be an agitator of sorts within some of these other organisations, do you have capacity in your role to provide training to kind of upskill some of these other agencies?

Yeah, we do. We do have a criminal justice training that I know is being rolled out to different organisations. I think specifically it's going to be rolled out through some DCJ housing offices, which I think would be really great. we've got a current partnership for one of our programs that we've got two case workers co-located at six different DCJ housing sites. So that's where that idea is obviously filtered through that maybe criminal justice training could be useful for some of the client service offices and people working within those DCJ housing offices. But that's just one example

of how we've been trying to think of how we can play some part in capacity building. in how to support people appropriately who have that criminal justice experience. Yeah, and I know that especially in the eastern suburbs and in a city area, there are some really good organisations that are doing great work in the DV space. So I don't know to what extent they're familiar with your processes, and do you have to do a bit of work around that? In terms of being able to support women who are experiencing domestic violence and helping them through some of those court processes,

or is it a separate set of entity in terms of legal aid maybe? Yeah, it is sort of separate. I mean, we obviously do a lot of work in that space because there is a lot of crossover. Unfortunately, we've experienced, like I know just in my professional experience in supporting some of the women that I work with through those processes, there's a lot of some women are treated differently in those services. and in those spaces because of their own criminal justice experience.

And if that is known, this can sometimes be assumptions made about clients, which is really sad to see. Yeah. Is your team mostly made up of social workers? I'm interested in sort of the expertise behind some of these programs or is it very much an interdisciplinary collaborative approach? Yeah, but we've definitely got people from a whole range of backgrounds. There's a couple of social workers, but we've also got a lot of workers who have lived experience,

which is amazing. So lived experience of imprisonment and some lived experience of addiction or both. And they obviously have qualifications in a range of different things like community services and mental health and drug and alcohol. And we've got a lot of people with backgrounds in counselling, community development. There's a whole range, which is great. Yeah. It sounds as though there are a lot of really frustrating parts of your role in a lot of ways that you think it could be improved. But what would you say is the most frustrating thing that people might not realize or have expected? The most frustrating thing is the lack of access to suitable housing for people leave in prison.

And also an overall misunderstanding of who a person who's been in prison is. we find that a lot of the work that we do is sort of breaking down the stigma that's associated with people who've been in prison. I think there's this just automatic thought in people's mind that, oh, they've been in prison, so they must be violent, they stand over people, they can be aggressive, I hate using this word, but they're not going to be compliant. There's just those assumptions that are made when we're trying to refer clients into different services, whether that be accommodation services or drug and alcohol services, like residential programs and that sort of thing. That's probably the most frustrating.

But also can be some of partly the most rewarding part when you realize you have gotten somewhere and you have broken down some of that stigma to be able to have your client access a service that they have every right to access, just like everybody else. Yeah, it reminds me a lot of working in the hospital and you do get a lot of that it's passed down from admission to admission. You've got this in your history. Therefore, we expect that this is going to be a specific type of admission, which is really unhelpful. Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely. What would you say you love most about the work you're doing? Probably the most I would say is we work from a relational model of support. So being able to work

with someone long term, we do pre-release, so three months before release and then support someone through their journey for 12 months or more after their release to the community. And I think that extended period of support provides such an opportunity to build a really strong sense of trust, rapport. There's a whole amount of respect, like mutually, that's developed. And I think that's probably the most rewarding part of the job. I mean, we're all human, but it's just particularly, I think, I think that's probably, I think working in a gendered program, you know, women supporting women, I think it's really

powerful and I think that's probably the best part of the job and that's why I've stayed so long. Yeah. I can imagine also some of these things aren't linear, right? So a person's outcomes are not going to follow a predictable trajectory. How do you know when someone's ready to come off your program? Is there sort of some criteria that you use? otherwise you could probably keep supporting people forever if you had nothing to give you those boundaries. Definitely. I mean, it's really strange, but sometimes the relationship just really naturally

ends. And I think part of that is when you think about this has probably been one of the most significant, stable relationships they've had in their life. And I think there's something in not wanting to have a final conversation about ending that relationship. I've found that quite a few times. when you've tried to meet with somebody to have that, okay, you know, it's coming to an end, you know, we should meet, and you just don't hear from them again. There's definitely something in that that clients either feel awkward or they just feel that that's very final and they kind of want to keep the door agile. But I've definitely had clients that I've supported off and on over, I mean,

I've known one of the women that I'm working with for eight years. like that's unheard of in most roles. And obviously, yeah, there's been big bumps in the road. And that's why she's been, we've picked up and offered support again. We won't ever turn someone away. If the wheels are fallen off, we just start again. What can we do differently next time? Yeah.

Are you personally responsible for funding applications and writing reports for grants and that I do do a lot of submissions for grants, but that's sort of just to complement our case management. We don't get brokerage essentially. So, you know, just to have that bit of extra money to be able to buy women's and clothes, emergency food, help set up homes with white goods and general kitchen, bathroom, that sort of stuff. So I do a lot of writing in that space. Yeah, we've got a team that's responsible for our tenders, which we're really lucky to have. Yeah, wonderful. I think when you've got as many programs happening at the same time, you kind of need someone to just focus on all of that, the in and the out and how is it all going to work? Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think also you really need

a good space because I'm just thinking back to, again, my community days. And yes, it's all great to have access to white goods or access to clothing and all sorts of other things. But unless you got somewhere to store them and not have it a complete shambles when someone comes in to get something. It's impossible to account for all of that. So do you have a dedicated space within the organisation where you can just go, yep, that's where I pick up the socks. That's where the microwave is going to live. No, we have no storage. Yeah, typical, yeah, typical community organization. We just do what we can. Like, we've got toiletries and that sort of thing stored at the office. But other than that, we just have to purchase things as we go.

You know, I've got someone coming out where, you know, we have to get a few basic clothing items, and we've got it there for her when she walks out the gate. Sort of works a bit like that. Wow. Yeah. They're kind of living on top of each other a little bit. Yeah, yeah.

How do you stay motivated? What support do you need in this space? It is very challenging work. Yeah, it is. I mean, I think we're really fortunate to have such an amazing team. Like, I've got a really amazing, co-worker, it's just the two of us working in a particular program I've worked in. And, you know, we've obviously developed a really good friendship over the last couple of years. So we sort of bounce

off each other and I think that's kept us going. And then obviously an amazing broader team. And like I mentioned, a lot of workers with lived experience, which I think is really, it's extremely helpful to have that professional and lived experience perspective when you're working in this space. And then obviously we get regular supervision and our supervisor has previously worked at CRC. So she's really across the work that we do and that's really helpful when you're in clinical supervision to have someone who really understands where you're coming from. Yeah, lots of support, which is great. Yeah.

Do you think you take very careful, measured steps to avoid vicarious trauma and those sorts of things that could come up that would cause you to not have the longevity that you've had in this role? Yeah, I mean, there's definitely been times like over the last nine, ten years that I have struggled at times because, you know, you're hearing some quite traumatic stories of people's lives, not just from them telling you, but in reports and previous case notes and things like that. And it does take its toll after a while. But I think it just, for me, it's come with experience in where I have to emotionally draw the line. It's really, hard to not become overly invested and emotionally invested when you're working so closely

with one person over a long period of time. But I think, yeah, it just comes with experience and making sure that I've had those good supports around me and knowing which supports to go to and when. Yeah. And also, I mean, because I've been through it before, I've sort of flagged with my supports of what to look out for, which I think has been really useful. Being a social worker and a case manager, how do you see that aspect of your role? What do you think it is about social work in particular that lends itself to this sort of environment? Why a social worker is good case managers? Yeah, it's a good question.

In the area I work, there are a lot of OTs who do case management, a lot of OTs. Yeah, I remembered that when I was at that Maracle Community Mental Health placement, that was the case. There was a lot of O.T. psychologists in a casework role. I don't remember when we were studying specifically, I don't even remember case management specifically being brought up as a skill. I think there's sort of an expectation that we can do a lot of that, but it's not a formal part of our training. And I wonder at some time. Yeah, I think we're well positioned quite often. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you definitely notice, well, I've noticed, because I've been around for a while in this. role. Some newer staff may be coming in that don't have that case management background necessarily.

It can take a little while to build up those skills and it's not to say that you can't, but it's not something that comes naturally to some people. And obviously based on their education background, qualification, whatever, it just maybe hasn't equipped them with the skills to be able to case manage as opposed to be a support worker is a big difference. That's just what I've observed over years. I don't necessarily know what that is, though. I can't pinpoint. I think social workers tend to have a natural way of just wanting to get stuck in there

and not wanting to be a fixer, but get stuck in there and get the job done. What do you think? I'm thinking it's almost like a seven secret herbs and spices kind of situation where it's really difficult to articulate. And I'm struggling myself sometimes to think, why would I suggest that this person over this person would be a better fit? And I think that's what it comes down to sometimes. Sometimes for me, at least in my role, it's about the fit with the person, not necessarily

about the teaching that we've had at university, but it's about the perspective that we're taking in the approach and how that might mesh well with that person. And maybe it is that social workers are so flexible in the way that we apply different strategies or different approaches to a particular scenario. Yeah, definitely. Thinking out loud, maybe that's it. Yeah, yeah. Or being perceptive enough to be able to say, I think this is the approach that that

that person needs. Yeah. Because they're not going to know. No. I mean, if they do, you've got the most insightful client and that's wonderful. Yeah. But most often people are not going to be able to say, I need this approach and this is what's going to help me best. Yeah, definitely. It's definitely hard to articulate. I think we both know what we're trying to say. Maybe in another 10 years we'll figure it out.

Yeah. Yeah. Given that you do have this longevity within the organisation, what changes have you seen in this field of work over time, whether it's not. grade or maybe some positive changes? I think it's being talked about more experience of imprisonment, like even in the media, like you'll see a lot more good documentaries, not, I mean, they still exist, but documentaries that dramatise, but it's all very catered to what people stereotypically think the prison environment is. I think there's like just an example, like incarceration nation is an amazing documentary, that came out, I think it was last year.

And I think that's really positive. Small steps, but it's great that there are documentaries like that being made that provide a true representation to give people a better understanding of why things are the way that they are in this country when it comes to imprisoning people, particularly First Nations people. Yeah. In the time that I've been at CRC, we've grown, which says something in itself, like when we started,

we were quite, there's probably like 20 to 30 employees and now we're at, I think, almost 70 with the whole range of programs like across Sydney metro area. We're in Broken Hill as well, Newcastle, Wongong, Dabo. So that's been amazing. Yeah. And do you support people just in this local area? Do you get to travel to some of those regional areas, even if it's just for networking? No, I mean, we used to, we used to have a program that was,

funded by corrective services to enter the high-intensity program units at a few of the prisons where we would facilitate two to four-day workshops with a group of inmates about reintegration, what it's going to look like when you're released, what supports available, how you access supports. And that was really amazing to be able to travel for that, and it had really great outcomes, that program. We all really enjoyed it. There was amazing feedback, and it's definitely needed. But in my role currently, I have no need to travel to those areas because it's not, those programs aren't within my team. Yeah. I was speaking with Jerome who works at the forensic hospital in Sydney. And he was saying that there are times when there are people who he supports

that Sydney is not where they were originally from. They might have family overseas or interstate. Are there times when you need to be able to explore? options with local services and what does that look like when you do? Yeah, we obviously get a lot of referrals for people who are from all, all areas of New South Wales or even interstate that interstate's slightly different because sometimes they can't leave New South Wales because of their parole and that's why they can't return to Queensland or Melbourne, wherever their family is. But we do get a lot of referrals for people, particularly people from regional areas, like, you know, say Walgut, for example, that maybe don't want to return to their community for a whole range of

reasons and want to relocate somewhere for a bit of a fresh start. We see that happening a lot. I mean, even if I don't want to be in Penrith for a variety of reasons could be domestic violence or a whole, you know, a whole range of reasons why they can't return to their community and they need to leave elsewhere. So we see that a lot, yeah. Okay. Earlier you were talking about the treatment in prison system so that institutional abuse, do you think that's improving? What do you think is being done to try to fix maybe some of the culture or expectations of the prison system? I mean, I don't think it's necessarily improving.

I think prisons are a very hostile environment and there needs to be a lot more, a lot more training of staff in prisons. And I think that's going to take a lot of work to improve the treatment and support of inmates as they would refer. When you're hearing stories from women that have been assaulted in prison two years ago by prison guards, that says a lot that not much is really changing, unfortunately. And that's just what we're being told. So there's probably so much more that isn't spoken about.

Sure. Yeah. And if you've got a lot of people who are sustaining assaults, whether it's within the system or pre-entering the system, I can imagine there's a lot of overlap with disability sectors as well. Is there much that you have to do with NDIS services and supports? Yeah, definitely. I mean, we've got quite a few clients that have access to NDIS packages, which is great.

There's also a significant proportion of people in prison who have cognitive impairment, acquire brain injuries. A whole psychosocial disability is huge. but so many people have unaddressed and unsupported needs and aren't being assisted while they're in custody to act to facilitate an NDIS application, for example, which is really sad. And I think it provides such a great opportunity

to have some of that work done while someone's in prison, but sometimes we just don't see that happening. And it's when the referral is coming to us and they're about to be released in three months and they've been in prison for two years and you can see all of the needs that haven't been addressed during that time. It's like banging your head against a wall. It's really frustrating.

And then you sort of think to yourself, if some of these needs were being supported 10 years ago, would this person still be cycling in and out of the prison system? We'll never know the answer to that, really, but you would think it would be less likely that this would have been the outcome and that their life looks the way that it looks. Yeah. I know you've worked in this area for a long time. Your whole working life pretty much so far, your experience as a social worker has been this.

Yeah. And like myself, you've not been as interested in the DCJ child protection stuff. Yeah. Has there been anything else that you've had interest in exploring? Maybe it's come up through the course of your work that you're doing now and you've thought, oh, I'll remember that one. That sounds really interesting to pursue later. It sounds really bad, but I just, I feel as though working in any other area just wouldn't be as challenging for me.

You know, obviously I'm interested in housing and homelessness and drug and alcohol and I'd be more than happy to work in a residential setting or in Eva, you know, but I just think to myself, I just, I don't think I would be as challenged day to day as I am. now. I think it's so broad and it provides such an opportunity to work with people in so many areas. It sort of knows no bounds. I've contemplated this a lot, particularly over the last couple of years, and I just don't know if I would be happy working anywhere else. I'm going to write it out as long as I can. Amazing. Yeah. It's really nice to hear because, yeah, often people will think, oh, what else is out there and they'll stay in one position because they think, oh, this is what I know. But obviously with you, it's really, you've found where you fit.

Yeah, which is, I mean, to have found my passion and where I feel like I fit so early in my career is pretty lucky, I think. Do you have an opportunity in your role to take on students? Is that something that you're interested in? Yeah, definitely. I've just moved into a new role, a team leader role in the last couple of months. And I think that's going to provide more of an opportunity for me to support students, which I'm excited about. And I mean, it's also obviously going to provide the opportunity to mentor and support staff, which is, I was doing a bit of that in a senior casework role.

But obviously, it's going to be that the primary focus now is to support staff in them supporting clients. That makes sense. Yeah. Does that mean that you have less of a case? management role because you have some of those other responsibilities? Yeah, I will, unfortunately. I've tried to negotiate to keep a caseload of three to four women, and I've been told no. And I understand why, because I think, you know, my manager and CEO know how I work,

and if I was to only be given four clients, I'd throw myself into those four. And I think it will be good for me to use my skills in a different way. I know I'll be busy and this is going to sound bad, but it will sort of give me a little bit of a break, which I think, you know, after doing it for nine years, it's probably needed. Yeah. Yeah, just to sort of see things from a different angle, which will be good. Yeah, freshen it up a bit. Yeah.

Are there any projects or programs? I noted that there are a lot of, just from something to look at your website, there are so many things happening in your organisation, so many different programs. Yeah. Or anything else interesting coming up. that you wanted to shout out? Oh, I mean, I would always plug our Jarbrick radio program. I cannot remember the exact days and times that it's on,

but it's 2SER and CRE radio that supports that program, and that's Kate Pinnick, who coordinates that. It's essentially sharing the stories, music, poetry of people in prison. So it's all all the voices you hear of people who are in prison currently or have experienced imprisonment to obviously share their stories and inspire other people who might be struggling in the system or have families in the system. We've also got paper chained, which is a magazine. You can access that online, and that's coordinated or edited by Damien Lanane,

and he's got lived experience of imprisonment. So that's all artwork, poetry, writings of people in prison too, which is amazing. Yeah, incredible. Well, I can put links to those in the phone notes so people can go off and have a look. Yeah, awesome. Are there any other resources that you can think of that might help people to understand a bit more about the type of work you do? Sounds like there's lots of trauma-informed stuff in there. Maybe do you have any links or things that you could refer people to if they're struggling with ending working relationships?

I think that's a big thing that people would have difficulty with. Yeah, oh, there was definitely something I got. through work. I can have a look through and see if I can find it because it is something that comes up a lot in our work of the exit of a client and how to do that respectfully and in a trauma-informed way. And I think it's something that a lot of people struggle with, not just work as at CRC. Especially because for such a long time, you're such a big piece of that person's pie, right? So you've got a person's context, background, family, other supports around them in formal or formal, but if you're working so intensely with someone, you can't help but be a huge part of that person's support network.

Totally, yeah. I mean, when you've been supporting somebody through some of the most difficult periods of their life as well, it must be hard for somebody who has had unhealthy attachments and a lot of trauma in their life to then let go of that relationship where they feel safe, probably sometimes for the first time in their life. And not abandoned. exactly and I've been the support person for clients getting birth like when you've watched a client give birth and be there for moments like that it is really profound I think and it's hard for us to let go it just is there was a great quote I found from the great Tony Vincent he said that

prisoners and their problems do not fall from the sky they come from families they live in neighborhoods and they belong to communities. So that really screens that context. Everyone will come to you with their backgrounds, their strengths, their experiences, their traumas. Yeah. And it's your role to understand that identify the issues and piece everything together in a way that's going to support that person without taking their agency away without sort of doing things for them. Exactly. I mean, we operate in a way that We don't lead the relationship. We don't lead how the support is for each client.

The client leads. So it's whatever's important to them and that they can identify it. We will support with. So that's, I think, how it becomes such a broad role because that's different for every person. And needs need to be met in a different way, depending on each individual person, family, the community that they come from. Yeah. You mentioned incarceration nation.

and I haven't seen that. I'm going to go off and do some research. But there was a great couple of documentaries that I saw not so long ago called The Oasis and then life after the Oasis. I'm not sure if you've seen those. I remember the first one. I watched that.

I saw a clip of the follow-up and I immediately remembered the woman that they obviously caught up with. Yeah, very sad. Yeah. But I mean, a really good example of the work that people are doing on the ground and how involved you become in someone's life.

Yeah, definitely. Is there anything else before we finish up, Claire, that you wanted to mention about the work that you're doing, anything you want people to know? Just that I think it's really important for social workers in any space, in any field, to educate themselves about people who've experienced imprisonment and with a criminal record, because our clients filter into all different spaces.

And in any role, you're going to come across people who have this background. I think that's really important for people to understand and to up school where they need to watch documentary, like good documentaries if you need to bring organisations that have that specialty and their expertise, ask questions because it's not one of those issues that just belongs in the corner or over there or unseen. happening and people with criminal records accessing homelessness services, they're entering residential rehabs, they're using legal services, hospitals, child protection, it's everywhere. Yeah. And I just think that's really important.

In the same way that you would come across people who have exposure to the DCJ system and to health care systems, even though it's not something that you want to work in full time necessarily, you want to be able to understand how that system works, what the barriers are, how you can support someone through that. So I think social work is incredible from that perspective in that you do work across so many different areas, even if you're not doing it consciously. Exactly, yeah. And I think also something's important to highlight is that it's really important to celebrate

the little wins that maybe people don't necessarily. typically see as progress, but for somebody who's spent a lot of their life cycling in and out of prison, progress or a win can be catching the bus one day. Like it's really small stuff to a lot of people, but huge. And I think it's really important for social workers working in any space to acknowledge that, because I think it's huge and it makes a big difference in the people that you're working with and just sort of not misinterpreting behaviours and how people might present or, you know, their complexity. I think it's really important.

So we've all got a role to play. Which is, I guess, where that good supervision comes in. Yeah. In terms of having someone who's removed enough from the case to be able to help you to see those small moments. Yeah. Because you might be awash in a sea of unfortunateness that's happening for that person. Yeah, exactly. I can see that early on you've really taken those opportunities that have come your way

and I guess encourage other people to do the same. Just feel as though you took that 12-month opportunity to build your confidence in a specific area. So even if it's something that you can't see yourself doing longer term to consider it as sort of a stepping stone to something that you really want to be doing, especially for new grads where every job, that comes up will say experience required. Yeah, exactly. And try to be good at articulating what you got from that 12-month experience or six months or whatever it was or even your placements. Yeah. I was speaking with Peggy who. Peggy's the deputy head of the social work department at Prince of Wales. She's seconded out to a different program at the moment, but she was talking about how in an

application it's really important to highlight that if you're going for a hospital role, you might not have had any experience as a social worker in a hospital role, but you've done a placement in one. So she would say, that's your experience. You have actually worked directly with people. You've had the experience of referring out, negotiating with organizations, supporting someone's discharge, if that's the area of the hospital you're in. So just thinking creatively and actually reflecting on what those experiences have afforded you.

Exactly. Yeah, you've talked also about the. resource limitations and the various challenges within your setting that have brought you so many professional opportunities and satisfaction both personally and professionally. And that's part of why you love doing what you do. And it's about the power that people can have in that space. And it's women supporting women to really put confidence for themselves. And I really look forward to seeing, I guess, where this new team leader role takes you. Yes, you won't have the case management opportunity and the real frontline options there. But from a mentoring and skill building

perspective, you can support those staff, you can support students who are up and coming and help them to reflect on the good work that they're doing and how things could be done differently and how they can get in there and agitate some of these other local services. And maybe you can help with some of the policy side of things and some of those grant applications because you have that space that's a little bit separate. So hopefully that's what's coming up for you, but we're looking forward to seeing where it takes you. Yeah, we'll see how we go.

Yeah. Thank you again, Claire. This is incredible. I think it's, as you've said, it's an area of social work that's just not talked about very often, but it's such a strong area where we can make a huge difference. So it's been wonderful hearing about it. Yeah, definitely. No worries.

Thanks so much. Thank you for joining me this week. If you'd like to continue this discussion or ask anything of either myself or Claire, please visit my anchor page at anchor.fm slash social work spotlight. You can find me on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter, or you can email SW Spotlight Podcast at gmail.com. I'd love to hear from you. Please also let me know if there is a particular topic you'd like discussed,

or if you or another person you know would like to be featured on the show. Next episode's guests are Jacob and Aaron. Aaron is a social worker and therapist currently working with children in out-of-home care across New South Wales to build the relational networks around children and facilitate their healing from developmental trauma through somatic and play-based therapies. Jacob is a child and adolescent social worker with experience providing trauma-informed therapeutic support to children and young people across the out-of-home care, refugee resettlement and residential rehabilitation spaces. Both are passionate about building trauma-informed and empathic communities.

I release a new episode every two weeks. Please subscribe to my podcast so you're notified when this next episode is available. See you next time.