Social Work Spotlight - Episode 78: Jacob & Aaron

Episode Date: March 3, 2023

In this episode I speak with Jacob and Aaron. Aaron is a social worker and therapist currently working with children in Out of Home Care across NSW to build the relational networks around children and facilitate their healing from developmental trauma through somatic and play-based therapies. Jacob is a child and adolescent social worker with experience providing trauma-informed therapeutic support to children and young people across the out of home care, refugee resettlement and residential rehabilitation spaces. Both are passionate about building trauma-informed and empathic communities.Links to resources mentioned in this week’s episode:John Moriarty Football - https://moriartyfoundation.org.au/programs/john-moriarty-football/Bruce Perry’s books (including The Boy Who Was Raised as a Dog) - https://www.bdperry.com/booksDaniel Hughes’ P.A.C.E. approach - http://www.danielhughes.org/p.a.c.e..htmlThis episode's transcript can be viewed here:https://docs.google.com/document/d/1O-TcghzwRqoh03nkEZpVFp4lZFUzfkeDPd8wOfuR1oE/edit?usp=sharingThanks to Kevin Macleod of incompetech.com for our theme music.

I begin today by acknowledging the Gadigal people of the Eura Nation, traditional custodians of the land on which I record this podcast, and pay my respects to their elders past and present. I extend that respect to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people listening today. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples have an intrinsic connection to this land and have cared for country for over 60,000 years, with their way of life having been devastated by colonisation. Hi and welcome to Social Work Spotlight, where I showcase different areas of the profession each episode.

I'm your host, Yasmin McKee Wright, and today's guests are Jacob and Aaron. Aaron is a social worker and therapist currently working with children in out-of-home care across New South Wales to build the relational networks around children and facilitate their healing from developmental trauma through somatic and play-based therapies. Aaron's background is in youth work and horizontal, community organizing in the Blacktown Parramatta area, where he originates from and resides. Jacob is a child and adolescent social worker with experience providing trauma-informed therapeutic support to children and young people across the out-of-home care, refugee resettlement, and

residential rehabilitation spaces. Both Aaron and Jacob are passionate about building trauma-informed and empathic communities. Thank you so much, Aaron and Jacob, for coming on to the podcast. So lovely to meet with you both and always love having two guests on the show. I think it creates an incredibly enriched conversation and just really looking forward to hearing about your experience so far. Thanks for having us. Yeah, morning, Asman. Thanks very much for having us. My pleasure. I'm going to ask firstly when you started as social workers and what drew you both to the profession? I guess I can start because I'm slightly older than Jacob. I'm I started social work in 2015. It came about because I started, studied quite a general degree in

social and political science with not a clear direction of where I wanted to go. And third year involved some placements. And in choosing those placements and in doing the work in those organisations, that's when I realised that social work was the path that I wanted to go down. So the first placement I did was at the community restorative center in Broadway, which the restorative justice organization. And the second one, which was really significant for me, was at the refugee agency in Blacktown where I grew up. And I was drawn to that placement because it really aligned with my values, it aligned with that I wanted to do work in my own community where I'd grown up. And spending time there and doing the work there as a student made me realize that

social work was the direction I wanted to go in and thankfully after I finished my placement I went straight into a role there. Did you know anything about social work before you started studying or did it just kind of develop? Not before I started studying. The reason that I chose the degree that I did was after I finished high school I worked in a factory for a year or so and I started to realize the conditions that people were putting up with that are people who are close to the poverty line and that sort of work though, my colleagues, but, you know, I was a 17-year-old and they were middle-aged people with families, and I realized that this was their reality. And so I was interested in, like, labor relations and politics and radical politics and gradually through the degree,

I started to realize that the best use of my energy wasn't in big macro political organizing, but more in local, micro, smaller community type work, and that's where social work came for me. It wasn't the usual path to social work with a social work degree. And how about you take it? Yeah, I mean, I probably took an unconventional path as well into social work. I was actually a journalist working in sports media for about five years. So I didn't study at uni during that time. I just kind of managed to catch a break and I was working in football. So football, was, you know, my passion growing up and it was sort of my dream job in a way, and I was

extremely lucky to get there. I found eventually that what I was doing wasn't fulfilling. It's kind of weird, you know, you work in some ways, you're online all the time in online journalism and sports media. You're, you know, you're always switched on and you're working, you know, relatively hard to create stories that would just sort of disappear into the ether, which wasn't very fulfilling. And at one stage, I just sort of lost interest and I thought, you know, this isn't really for me and looked for something else. To be honest, I'm not really sure what dream of social work. Both my step-parents happen to be social workers. I guess there is a bit of an overlap in the sort of notion of story. I was telling people's stories as a journalist, maybe to a fairly

superficial extent, but I think now having kind of reflected a bit more about it, humans really need stories to survive in the world. And, you know, in what I kind of do in social work, you know, I kind of like initiating those emotional connections that we feel with other humans through story. And I guess there's a bit of a parallel there with journalism. But ultimately, I still don't really know. I'm still kind of working that out as I go along. Yeah. When I hear of journalism, I think there's a lot of sensationalism and I guess social work has given you an opportunity to go deeper, as you were saying, tell those stories, bring a real humanity to the people that you're talking about or talking to, talking with. So, yeah, I can see that there's

been a natural progression. It's just a very unconventional pathway, which is really interesting. I'd probably add, and I hope I'm not speaking for you, Jacob, but I think it's a nice thing to mention, but both Jacob and I grew up in Tengabbe when we were really little and we knew each other were from the same area. So I wonder whether our connection to community is a drawing factor for both of us to be working in the community. Would you say that that area is quite disadvantaged or very mixed? Why do you think that community specifically? That's a good question. Yeah, between Parramatta and Blacktown, which is where Jake and I are both from, is a pretty disadvantaged area, absolutely, and we both knew what it's like to grow up with not very much

money. But I think more than that, there's this drive for me anyway to just do work within one's own community, whatever community that might be, there's always a need. And there's a draw to do work where you're from with people that you can relate to well rather than going outside into another community and bringing your values to somewhere that's different. which is really interesting from a refugee perspective because for most of us we couldn't even begin to comprehend what that person's been through, where they've come from. Well, a lot of community development is supporting people to feel confident to express themselves in their culture and their skills and experience. But at the same time, there's no way of getting around. It's a new culture.

It's a shock. It's very confronting. That's true. but also who better to, I guess, help those people to settle than the people who are from that specific suburb. And I feel like we have a duty if we're from an area to welcome those people into the area and help them to become part of the community.

And both Jake and I went to school, highly multicultural school. And yeah, I felt like it was part of my duty even as a kid to make new people feel welcome to our community. Yeah, nice. What would you say has then led to this point in your career from those placements, what's been the development? As I kept working, I started in youth, and so I was a youth development worker at the refugee agency,

and then I moved into working in a kind of a family preservation role, which was more by chance than deliberate. There was just a job going, and I needed a job, and that's how I landed there. However, as time went on, I became more and more interested in, I guess, earlier and earlier. prevention and that's, or prevention of entering the justice system or prevention of, you know, serious mental health disorders, that sort of thing. And that's what drew me to work with children where I am now. I didn't ever expect to be working with kids. Never set out to work with kids. I thought I was going to be in youth forever. But I started to realize that, yeah, there's

earlier and earlier work to be done and you know you can change the trajectory of children earlier and prevent them entering the juvenile justice system or the adult justice system. Yeah, I'm also just thinking kids with trauma backgrounds, the impact of trauma, as we know, it affects all other areas. So a social worker might say, oh, I'm not interested in working with kids or I'm not interested in working with people from a refugee background or people who have experience trauma, but it gets into every single context. So it affects health. It affects education outcomes, opportunities, relationships, development, housing. So I think it's a really rich area for social work to be in. How do you develop or support engagement of kids who do have that

trauma background? Probably the first most important principle that I try and work with is to meet children where they're at rather than try and force a prescriptive model of therapy onto children, go in and therapies them better, so to speak. I think it's really important to meet the children where they're at. So most of my work with kids, my initial session is all about getting to know them, and then doing activities that they like to do, not bringing in my urgent therapeutic intervention. But, you know, if a child likes to play soccer, then we play soccer.

if they like to walk in the bush, we walk in the bush, or if they like to draw, then we draw. And all of my goals and my program's goals can come later. Really have to meet children where they're at, particularly from trauma backgrounds when their threat responses are so easily activated. We really need to engage them in activities where they feel safe and activities that are regulating for them. I'm keen to come back to that. But yeah, Jake, tell me a bit more about your progression. Yeah, I guess I'm sort of similar to Aaron. I started working with youth from refugee backgrounds out in the Fairfield area.

That was my first role in the field. I'm still, I actually just finished my first placement. So I guess, you know, my route is still going and perhaps even more unconventional. I also just tend to think that social work is a, entirely relational profession and what better way to kind of develop that skill than by actually, you know, doing the work, you know, putting yourself out there. I really think kind of when you've got a profession as broad as social work, you know, you've kind of got to set yourself apart in some way and do a little bit extra. And yeah, I guess that's what I try to

to do myself. I started volunteering at a refugee resettlement agency in Fairfield. I guess the kind of parallels continue there with a lot of the time it just kind of looks like playing soccer really with the kids out there. But through that I got a bit of an interest in children and development and trauma as well. And from there, I've been interested in working with children who experience developmental trauma and learning about how that drives behavioural and relational presentations that we see in young people and children.

Yeah, and are you hoping to do something completely different for your second placement, or would you prefer to keep sort of similar area if you can? So my placement was actually at a tertiary health service as unrelated to what I was just talking about. For my second placement, I'm not really sure. We're not really given much of a choice, to be honest. It is a bit, we kind of steer people in the right direction,

but ultimately we kind of end up with what we're given, which is what it is. Yeah, I mean, with my placements, I guess I didn't know what to expect going into it. And in both areas, to a certain degree, felt as though how is a social worker going to make an impact in this area or what are the learnings what am I going to get out of this and I think you just for the most part take to it like a duck to water in the sense that once you get a sense of the culture and once you get an

understanding of what's expected of you you can just make that placement to your own you can individualize it and you get out of it what you want to basically. So it depends to a large degree on a great supervisor and someone who can really see your strengths and point you in the right direction and focus on things that are going to be of greater benefit for your learning, but you're working for an agency unpaid. You've got a bit of sway in saying, I'm not expected to do anything necessarily. I'm not getting paid. I haven't signed a contract for a specific role. I can influence this based on what I'm interested in. So yeah, I feel like it doesn't matter as much, but at the same time, a lot of people I've spoken with end up getting a job from their second

placement. So, you know, you kind of want to think, is it something that I'm interested in potentially pursuing post-graduation? I would love to hear a bit more. about, I know that there's been some work in residential and living programs and I'd love to know a little bit more about that. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, we can both speak to this. I'm currently not a therapist like Aaron. I work in a residential out-of-home care center at the moment. It's, yeah, it's a really interesting place to be. I tend to think that the, the, responsibility there is really to be a safe adult that can be called upon as a resource for healing. It's a challenging place to go to. I've had some real nightmare stories. To put it this way,

I've seen what it looks like when residential out-of-home care is run for the wrong reasons and when the adults don't understand the children. I've seen when it can work as well. And it's interesting. It's a very interesting space to be in. And Aaron, you'll be able to talk a bit more. You were also in this situation. Yeah. Jake has more experience working in paid positions in residential youth work. And I'm sure you have a lot of wealth of knowledge there. Jake, my experience is a bit different. I was a live-in tenant as like a, it's called a lead tenancy. So in addition to my day job a couple years ago with the same organisation, my day job was doing client engagement for the family therapy program and I would come home and be a live-in tenant in specialist homelessness service accommodation. So in hindsight, some good learning for me is that that wasn't great boundaries to be with an organisation 24-7.

That's been some important learning as I've matured a little bit. However, it was really, really valuable experience, and I really loved living in that house. So my role wasn't like a youth worker where there's an office, and we would have like a separate area. All I had was my room the same as the other youth in the house. And it was mainly just to make sure that everything kind of kept ticking over. So I wasn't there so much to do active youth work. It was just to be there if any of the young people were having a tough day and wanted to chat about it. But I wouldn't go and do things like helping them get their license or get work or anything like that.

That was left to youth workers. But I was there when things would go wrong to. So we did have a fire in that house while I was there. And I came home to smoke and, you know, fire. and the young people, the young people go, what do we do? And I said, we're going to leave the house and we're going to call the fibre. So stuff like that did come up. And we did also have one or two incidents of people in the community looking for young people there

because of situations of community and family violence coming to the house to look for the young people. So there was some pretty hairy situations there. But like Jake said, my takeaway was that the most important thing was just to be an example of a safe connection a safe adult connection for the young people, to give them, I guess, a different experience of what a relationship can look like and model that safe connection that they can then take into their other relationships

once they've moved on and they know what to expect from people rather than their experience, which so far was lots of sudden attachment ruptures, abuse, lack of dependency. My main guiding principle, I guess, was just that I wanted to be dependent, consistent, and have integrity for the young people because they hadn't experienced that very much.

And what were their ages or the age range of the people that were in the house? In that home, it was from 15 until 21 years old. Okay. Yeah, and I was about 24, 25 when I lived there. So there wasn't much gap between us. Was it hard being such a close age range to them? Mostly not. It was actually helpful in a previous role in that youth development role when I was

was at the refugee agency, that was tricky with the age gap because I was like 21, 22, and the young people were very similar age and it was very tricky to come up with, you know, communicate boundaries. Then it was like they would want me to add me on social media and it was really hard to explain why we can't do that. I'm just thinking in terms of I can sense a real responsibility and that switching off like you were saying. If you're intended to provide mentorship or modeling even of appropriate behavior or I would feel like I could never switch off in that environment because you're always on show or on call to some degree. Yeah, you're not wrong. And that that was my important learning that I took away from it

that I nearly burned myself out by being like switched on 24-7 and the impact that had on me. Yeah. And in that youth homelessness accommodation, it was myself and my ex-partner and we were living there together with the young people. So we also drew on our relationship to support the young people. And she did a great job of that too, but it was very tough. And we realized that being switched on 24-7 is actually not great boundaries. Good, important learning for me, I think. How did you identify that you were close to burning out?

What was the sign for you? I think it was just my stress levels. I know that some people talk about not being able to, you see with some people who are approaching burnout, they can either switch their empathy off and then that's their way of responding to burnout. My way was like I was overcommitting to lots of things, trying to run the mutual aid program at the same time. Stressed out not sleeping is probably the main one. When my sleep starts to go, that's when I know that things are stacking up.

And when I start to think about work outside hours overnight, that's probably my first sign to burn out. Yeah. Did they have sort of guardians? Did they have other people to formally look after them and help them make decisions? No, these were young people who most of them had been in foster care. They'd experienced placement breakdowns. They'd moved into crisis homelessness accommodation, usually around Paramount and Blacktown area. and then having lived in crisis for a little while,

they had been nominated to then move into this house as a next step. And that's where we were. But these were young people that had very few connections, which also made it very hard for me to put in boundaries knowing that I couldn't just say, oh, there's someone else who's going to be there to support them, really. There wasn't anyone else. And there was the streets or our house and that, yeah, that was tough. And Jake, how did it?

you negotiate work plus placement because it sounds as though you were doing all of that at once? We have great difficulty. I actually didn't, this current role that I'm in, I only recently started working in. So for the majority of placement, I actually didn't have a job, you know, when you're working essentially full-time hours unpaid. You know, sometimes you don't really want to go to your actual job. So the answer to that is I probably couldn't have if I had been throughout the three months finishing placement and going to work at the resi, I probably yeah, would have really ended up in burnout territory. Yeah. And I mean, it's great that you can identify that and call that out, but then it complicates things further down the track next year when you do have your second

placement of what am I going to do? Can I continue working? Do I cut down my hours? You have to kind of do a bit of soul searching and negotiation and see how that's going to work for you. Yeah, I think I'll be a little bit more prepared this time. I sauntered into this one, just very unprepared, didn't really have any money, just kind of thought, ah, see what happens. But that was an error. I'll definitely go into the next one. There's a bit more financial backing and a bit more planning as well, I think. Yeah, great. Now, I understand there's some work being done around outreach support, foster and kinship carers.

Very keen to hear about that, but also keen to hear your thoughts around maybe the impact of social works problematic history in care arrangements and how that. how that looks modern day. Yeah, that sounds like my role, I think, that you're talking about there. So my role at the moment's kind of got a dual focus. So there's this direct therapy with children in their homes, trauma therapy from a bunch of different modalities. And then alongside that, there's this outreach carer support with the aim that neither of those is in isolation, but for children to heal, it has to be holistic.

So we do this carer support where we also, we call it care teamwork. So we support carers, school staff, caseworkers, kin, extended family, etc. As well as the direct therapy with children, and that's all over the state. You make a very good point about social workers, frankly, dark history when it comes to care arrangements and, you know, horrific stolen generation history. I'm pretty proud that our team are half Aboriginal therapists and the way I see their work is basically healing the mistakes of the Solon generation and healing the disconnection that's happened through rebuilding connection.

So my Aboriginal colleagues do incredible work, family finding, and then doing what I've just talked about with that combination of care team help and bringing in all of like what my boss refers to as the concentric circles around a child, you know, kin, professionals, school, etc. or to hold the child. So, yeah, I'm really proud that my Aboriginal colleagues, the Aboriginal team, are basically healing the stolen generation and it's something I'm really excited about with our program. Yeah.

And I know you travel a lot. I got the sense from what you were telling me earlier that you have to go to, to different areas of New South Wales. How does that sit with you in terms of your fatigue levels? Like, how do you coordinate all that? It is very fatiguing. So in the next four weeks, I'm visiting Narrabri, Marimbula, and Burke to see kids. And each of those trips, you know, there's a few days afterwards of tiredness

because you really have to draw on all of your energy to also be, present for a child having just caught a plane and picked up a car and driven out to their place and all that sort of stuff. Yeah. You're running on adrenaline. Yeah. And, you know, I talked earlier about how I've always felt really drawn to work just within my community here in Western Sydney.

So it's been a bit of an adjustment to be then going all over the state and, you know, trying to come with cultural humility to wherever I go. And that doesn't mean cultural humility in terms of different, you know, cultural ethnic backgrounds. but the culture of place as well, like when I go and work in Burke or Dubbo, that's a different culture and different community that I'm walking into than urban Sydney sort of culture. So that's been a bit of an adjustment too and something that I find you really have to be quite open-minded and, yeah,

walk with humility when you go out there. And I would assume part of the skill is developing a really good knowledge of the services that are in that area and networking with those local services. Yeah, absolutely. So depending on the areas, sometimes I do also drop in on out-of-home care services in the area because they're usually the caseworkers who've referred to us. And sometimes that broadens out to other organisations. So it could be the Aboriginal Medical Service in a particular area or, you know, different community organisations. And an awesome one that I've just found out about recently while working in Dubbo is the John Moriarty football. academy, I think they're called. And they're awesome. They do some really fantastic work with kids

in Outback communities through football, which Jake and I have already talked about how much we love. Yeah, cool. You've also got your own project that you're backing Western Sydney Mutual Aid Project. So how do you multitask everything? There's a lot happening. You're juggling quite a few things. The Mutual Aid Project isn't ongoing at the moment. It's kind of a needs-based. project. So when a need flares up, we get in and do the work. I also, I feel like a little bit uncomfortable with taking ownership of that project as if it's my project, because it kind of is, it's really something that belongs to the community. I might have initiated it along with a really close friend of my entire mid. We did initiate things moving when the pandemic hit,

especially Mount Druid area and people couldn't get to their local shops. That's when we recognize the need. But the work itself was the community coming together to protect itself and look after itself and it's, you know, organic and it's non-hierarchical. So I don't feel like it's my project by any means. Yeah. And if that need arises again, then we will do the same work again. But at the moment, we're not recognizing a need like there was. Sure. And can you give me an example of what a need would be? How do you know you need to kickstart things again? Yeah. So the way that it came about was that I was living, it was actually in that youth homelessness accommodation, and I was living in Bidwell, which is our housing commission area of Mount Druid. It's a pretty

extremely disadvantaged neighbourhood. And when the first lockdown hit, the local shopping centre, Emerton shops, had closed for renovations. So for anyone to go and get their groceries living in that neighbourhood, many people there are also on disability pension. They would have to take two buses to get to Hebbisham Shopping Centre. And it was just, you know, it's not practical, but it's also not safe when there was that level of infection happening. So we just organized people and we were really careful as well to only talk to people from the Western Sydney area for the sake of keeping it community driven to go door knocking and asking people at each address what they needed. And then we would go to the shops because we had the means, we had a car.

We would go to the shops. We would buy the groceries and we'd drop them off. And we funded it just by a GoFundMe basically talking about the need. And we found lots of people, mostly local people, were happy to put in, you know, however small amount of money, just to be able to cover their neighbours and make sure that everyone was surviving. Wow. So incredible. And who knows, I'm sure there will be things that pop up where people will need something similar. But, yeah, it's really hard to get.

debt community. Like I'm thinking you can't really request funding from council or from other agencies if you can't show that there isn't a regular ongoing need. And that was the gap. That's the reason why we went in was because services were too slow to respond to this need, which was very sudden. And that's, you know, not necessarily their fault, but these services, there's a process. You know, you have to go through a tender process and the needs recognize and then they're given the money to go and deliver the service. But because the lockdown was so quick and the need wasn't recognized fast enough, we realized that if we didn't do this, it just wasn't going to happen. And that's why we did it. And that's also why we don't just continue indefinitely for

the sake of keeping the project going. Once the needs passed, then we can step back. And if it, you know, emerges again, then we'll do it again. I might start with Jacob. What do you find the most challenging thing about the work that you're doing at the moment? Yeah, it's a good question. For me, I think it's about working with other people who there's often a profound misunderstanding of children who experience developmental trauma on behalf of the adults, whether that's, you know, carers, teachers, any other kind of significant adult involved in a child's life. often there is a misunderstanding of how trauma is driving behavioral and relational presentations. For example, just look at education and how difficult that can be for children. You know, children experiencing trauma find it difficult to engage at school and feel safe because of their constant state of tension and arousal.

And of course, you know, traumatized brains are not in a state to learn. And kids are often unable to concentrate, pay attention, recall new information, basically just have the organisational and language abilities that you need to succeed in school, let alone the capacity to self-regulate. And what you'll see a lot of the time from, and not to sort of tarnish everyone with the same brush, but you'll see this misunderstanding of behaviour. you know, kids are naughty, they're oppositional, they're hyperactive, children are acting out. And of course, they're right in that respect, children act out when they don't have the words to

communicate their needs. For me, that's one of the biggest challenges is working alongside other professionals and how we can sort of foster an approach to their healing that's united. And that is so tricky to do when there's so many other. the adults involved in their life. Yeah, for me, I think that's the most challenging aspect of the work. How about you, Aaron? Something that I find a bit challenging, it's possibly a controversial thing to say, something that I find a bit challenging is people coming in with good intentions from middle or upper class backgrounds who want to come in and make change, but there's sometimes

a bit of a top-down approach, a bit of a like condescending or patronising or sort of hero-complex type of approach to social work. And I find that can be really tricky to navigate if that's a colleague or a professional from another organisation that you're working with and that's their approach. It can be very tricky to work with because it's not built from a place of equal standing and a place of like respect. It's hierarchical. It's coming from the top down. I find that really tricky to work with and it seems to be a bit of a theme sometimes. What would you say you love most about the work? What gives you the most energy? Connection, absolutely. Occasionally bumping into clients of mine from when I was younger who are now grown up has been extremely

special, especially because I still live in the same community. I can't give examples because there would be too identifying, but I've bumped into adult clients who are doing so well, and it's really heartwarming, really special. And I guess the journey as well, sometimes when I've been working with a child for six or 12 months and I get to write up my closure and then really reflect on how far we've come, that's also really special. It's really enjoyable. How do you know when you're done?

How do you know you've done as much as you can with that person and you can close the file? From my current program, it's quite simple. We identify three goals early on and those goals are not prescriptive to the model or anything. They're quite open. So it could be to make sure the child's connected with, you know, three adult long-term resources so that after we close those three adults are going to be their healing resource. Or it could be, you know, to reduce suspensions in school, or it could be to have more family time. Those are the sorts of goals.

And we know that we can close when we've met those goals. Often they feel when I ride them at the start totally out of reach and unrealistic. But then when we're headed towards the end of the case and I look at those goals and realize that we've met them all, that's how and I know that I can close. How about you, Jake? What do you find most rewarding? Yeah, I think similar to what Aaron's saying, just sort of being with people as they go through their journey and their journey through healing and whatever that looks like. You know, however you want to define healing and recovery. For me, I think I also really enjoy the playfulness of children.

There's something quite invigorating about the child's mind. And I think as adults, often we have so much to learn from kids when it comes to creativity and playfulness and humour. And certainly those are things that, you know, they make work enjoyable, but it's also things that you want to integrate in your personal life a bit more. So for me, that's definitely really rewarding. What sort of support do you need to do this work long term? not get burnt out. I'm even just thinking, Jake, you've gone through your first placement

after years of minimal contact with the outside world, not by your choice. It's just you're thrown into a world where it must have been incredibly exhausting. I'm thinking my student who was third year this year, who even just her first week on placement, there's so much to learn, there's so much to know. And that's coming off the back of two very strange years. What's of support do you need? Good supervision, I would say, is the most important for me. When I'm really thriving at work or in placement, it's usually because I have a really good supervisor. And conversely, if I'm really struggling, I think about some of the residential out-of-home care, the hellholes I've been in in the past, it's because there's minimal supervision or none.

And often as well, you've obviously just got to have a good support network outside of your professional life. And, yeah, for me, that's friends and family and, yeah, just human connection that's outside of work. Yeah. And Aaron, would you have anything to add having had a little bit more time? Yeah, Echo Jacob's supervision is the absolute fundamental thing. that I've always needed and it's yeah it's foundational need good supervision the things that I would add as well Jacob also talked about connection outside of work definitely the other things that I would add for me personally are exercise and sleep and they may sound really obvious but they're

not they're extremely important so yeah my pillars are supervision connection meaning outside work exercise and sleep also what's popped into my mind is that humor and playfulness in the workplace is also important. And I'm lucky to be in a team that has lots of time to joke around with each other. And I think we need that when we're taking on the referrals that we are. Yeah. What changes have you seen over time in this area? What have you been told about at the least? I'm thinking there are two sort of aspects here. You've got talking about the person in context, healing for generations, that sort of community historical background. But then you've also got the trauma versus behavior argument where maybe schools, families, there needs to be some

fostering of healing, as you were saying. So what have you seen in terms of developments for social work? And maybe where would you like to see social work go in these areas? I've seen during my time a good and encouraging shift towards trauma focus and holistic approach by which I mean not siloing physical health and mental health and connection and relationships, all as separate entities. I've been encouraged to see those things kind of coming together as well. Psychology and social work kind of starting to become a bit closer rather than separate. And, you know, in terms of system stuff during the course of my work,

I've, through our program, I've started to see fewer placement turnovers. and, you know, more visibility for children in out of home care, but there's still lots of work to be done there. Jake, have you noticed anything? Yeah, there is obviously still a lot of work to be done. I think it is interesting that trauma is now such a part of our lexicon, just in culture. And the definition of trauma has changed quite significantly,

throughout time, even in the field of childhood trauma where we both now work, it can be defined in several ways and in several different, you know, little subcategories, whether, you know, we're talking about attachment-based or developmental. And I think this is just, it's quite encouraging to hear trauma, I guess, being talked about a lot more normalized, just outside of the professional realm as well yeah where would you like to see the profession heading in an ideal world in these areas specifically it's a tricky question i know magic wand question yeah i am thinking i don't know if you want to step in i think the biggest change that i would like to see like the number one magic one type thing is that i'd like to see us abolish juvenile detention

because kids shouldn't be locked up. That's the main massive one that I would like to change. And the whole raise-the-age campaign, children just don't belong in jail. So that's a big change I'd like to see. Earlier on, though, I would still like to see more scrutiny on out-of-home care. I think some pretty criminal decisions are sometimes made about children that are focused on what's most convenient for the agency

or the agency's funding criteria or the social workers involved and children are then, you know, disconnected from their siblings or placed in unsafe places with carers that they know are not safe or appropriate. So I like to see a lot more scrutiny on the out-of-home care sector and I would like it to enter the public conscience because I don't think that it's something that the public likes to think about too much. But, you know, we know that statistically the children who are in out-of-home care, I'm experiencing lots of attachment ruptures and many placement changes.

They're the ones who then enter the juvenile justice system. So it's important for me. Sure. And Jake? Yeah, I couldn't possibly add to any of that. I think I would separate summary. What he said. Are there any other areas of social work that you'd like to go into?

I'm thinking, Jake, you were talking earlier about grabbing someone at that time in their life when they're starting to show effects of trauma. So you're not quite at that early intervention point, but you love working with kids. Is that something you might consider as well? Yeah. I mean, for now, I'm really happy where I am and for the foreseeable future, I'm going to be working with children who have experienced developmental trauma. That's my passion. You know, I've had some experiences working in refugee resettlement and in the residential rehab space as well. I am fascinated by the relationship between trauma and substance use. That's potentially an area of interest I'd explore in the future. Yeah, I guess I'm quite fortunate to be, you know,

at the fledgling stage of my career and sort of know that this is really what I want to be doing for now. I know how uncommon that is, but for me, I don't know this is what I want to be doing. That's pretty great to have such a clear sense of direction early on. Yeah, it is. And again, I'm not sure how common it is. Again, it's everyone's journey is different. And I do feel quite fortunate in that respect. Aaron, is there any other kind of work that you're interested in pursuing? I have talked about juvenile justice a little bit. And there's an interest there, but I guess a fraught interest where I would like to work with some of those young people

and do the similar sort of work to what I'm doing now with them, especially focused on connection and building the relational network around these children that are in juvenile justice. I said, it's a fraught relationship and I would be really concerned, I guess, not to become part of that system, which I fundamentally oppose. Yeah. Sounds as though there's also scope for you to move maybe into regional or rural practice as well. That's true. Yeah.

I do really enjoy working in different communities in New South Wales. It's such a massive place and there's such profound cultural difference there that I, I guess I didn't appreciate as much until I started working different areas. Nice. Are there any projects or programs that are coming up that you're working on that you wanted to shout out? For me, I guess I do just want to shout out that John Moriarty football, who I talked about because they really excite me in what they do. And yeah, it's got me thinking about whether we could do some kind of fun football game to raise money for them because they seem like a great organization.

And Jake, you're probably just trying to get through the next, what, 14 months. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've got a fair bit of debt to pay off, so I'll just, you know, I'll work, pay it off and then go into the next placement. Yeah, no. No, that's, that's painting quite a morbid picture. It's not as bleak as that. It's the reality, though. You've, you know, you've got to look after yourself. Yeah, it is. It is a little bit. I do think, you know, while social work placements are great in that they can be very intensive, like all placements, you know, whether it's nursing or teaching, there could be more. support offered. There could be a better way to do this, I think. Ideally, you'd have minimum wage

being paid, but that's a ridiculous proposition that will never happen in this country, I'm sure. I second that, Jacob. I saw an article recently. I think it came out of UNSW, but they were trying to pick up for agencies that take students on to be paying a small amount so that at least the person on placement could give up their regular job or whatever it might be. But there was, yeah, huge hesitation. This is another really important thing that's keeping working class people out of social work and keeping the door open for middle and upper class people to come into the sector. But working class people who want to work in their own communities find it a lot more difficult.

I have a close friend and she's in her third year of social work. She's also a full-time carer for her mum. She's from very poor background, you know, migrant community. And now she's expected to also do all these hours unpaid while caring for her mom working a day job. And it's, yeah, it's no good. Yeah, you've got enough stress to begin with. Are there any resources that you would recommend people check out, even just the modalities that you use or media, anything that might help people understand a little bit more about the work that you're doing?

Yeah, I mean, if anyone has even the slightest interest in children and developmental trauma, I would point them towards the works of Gabon Marte or Bruce Perry. There's a brilliant book called The Boy Who Raised as a Dog. That's a Bruce Perry book, which is just honestly the most fantastic book. It discusses how trauma affects a child's mind. And really, it's quite hopeful as well. talking about how traumatized children can recover. I would really recommend that book to anyone.

Those are really too good, I guess, gateways, if you like. There have been gateways for me, at least. I would, yeah, wholly recommend it. For me, I certainly back Jacob on the boy who has raised as a dog. It was kind of a turning point in my practice reading that book. And like Jacob said, it's a hopeful book with an optimistic outlook. I think a lot of people hear that title and they think, well, this is going to be extremely trauma-heavy. And it is, but it's with a tone of healing and optimism.

So yes, back that suggestion. And a practice principle that we use is the Pace approach, which is Dan Hughes from developmental psychotherapy. And Pace stands for playfulness, acceptance, curiosity and empathy. I think that you can't go wrong with applying Pace in your practice with children and young people. So Pace is probably one that I would recommend. Yeah, great.

It's interesting the number of people who have recommended Bruce Perry's work to me, and I just had a realization that that was published, I think, 2006, 2007, after I left uni. So there are so many things that they weren't taught, they weren't spoken about as much, especially the different approaches to, like, even things like neurosequential models and, yeah, a lot of the more recent, fantastic work that's being done that wasn't part of my own development as a social worker.

And unless you're keeping up to date and unless you've got these recommendations from people, I think that's part of your own professional development is just keeping abreast of what's coming out and what people are talking about and how they're applying that to their own work. So everyone's going to get something slightly different out of the new work. but hopefully my suggestion is for people just to be looking at what's new because life as a social worker, I think, starts for most of us once we get into the work and once we start developing that experience. I come back to this quite a bit with people who work with young people and trauma backgrounds and disadvantage, but there's a great documentary called The Oasis, which you might have seen or heard about. but yeah it's it's incredible so it follows a group of kids at the oasis in surrey hills and then there's 10 years later a follow-up called life after the oasis so just wonderful insights into the type of

community-based support that can be out there for young people and i think it paints a really accurate picture like really nitty-gritty of what these kids have gone through and how their backgrounds have influenced the decisions that they're making now, but also the people that are supporting them, there's a very clear distinction between the people who are perhaps a little bit more judgy and the people that see them for their worth and what they can contribute to society. So, yeah, I highly recommend those two documentaries to anyone if you can find them. You've come so far in such a short period of time and going back from what you were saying in the beginning your sense of duty to support people to feel belonging and to have other people understand

someone's trauma and how that's affected them comes through in everything that you're saying. And I love that you're placing importance of meeting people where they're at. So there's that real relationship side to our profession, the connections and needing to be so strong to build trust and not bringing interventions as prescriptions. as you were saying. So you're helping someone to meet their goals is not you setting goals for them. It's that person-centered. What is important to you? What do you think is achievable? Even if you think initially that might be unattainable, it sounds as though you're kind of whipping through those goals and getting it done and having people surprise themselves with what they're

capable of. I'd probably add that, I guess my utopian dream, which is a long way off, is that we would get to a point where neighbors and communities look out for themselves so well and are so responsive to needs within their community that we're out of a job and that, you know, people can be supported informally by networks in their communities that social work as a professional practice isn't needed as much and that, yeah, communities can look after themselves. That's my utopian dream. Yeah, I love the GoFundMe for your community support with mutual aid because I'm just thinking, I live in the inner west and I would love to know my neighbours more, but everyone keeps to themselves.

I wouldn't know if someone was struggling. So I think I would love to get to a point where I don't need to know everyone's business, but I would love to know if someone needed support if I felt like I was capable of providing that. So it's very likely that there are people that are wanting to. to but they don't have a vehicle and they don't have a way of identifying that someone's in need and the people who are in need are almost definitely not going to reach out and say, hey, I need help. They're just going to struggle in silence.

So I think it's fantastic what you've done with that work. I think also we talked a lot about boundaries and being really conscious of your own capacity and being able to say no, which is not something we learn at uni. There's a lot talked about boundaries, but until you're physically there, It's going to be different every time how you respond to something. And being that safe person to be called upon is not easy when you expect a lot of yourself and you want to be able to provide that support when someone needs it. But I think also, Jake, the experience that you're building while you're studying

and you've got that clear passion in this space, you want to continue working in this area. So many people leaving uni will only have. their placement experience. So I think you've set yourself well above anyone else who's going to be graduating next year. Yeah, I think it's incredible work, guys. Well done. Yeah, hopefully. Thank you. I mean, at the end of the day, you know, I think some social workers also might be slightly controversial. There does tend to be somewhat of a hero complex around social work and social workers. Certainly I've felt that maybe being nurtured a little bit at uni, which is maybe sat a little bit uncomfortable with me. Because at the end of the day, it is a job. It is a deeply

relational and personal and human job. But I think it is quite important to draw that distinction. Otherwise, we'll just get burned out. You know, we've only got so much that we can give. And I think it's really important to, yeah, have a firm sense of boundary and know where to draw that line. Having said that, thank you for the nice words. Thank you both. I've really enjoyed this chat. I've loved hearing about your experience. And I just thank you for the time and the effort that you've put into this and look forward to seeing where it takes you next. Thanks for having us. Yeah, thanks for having us, Jasmine. Thanks for joining me this week.

If you'd like to continue this discussion or ask anything of either myself, Jacob or Aaron, please visit my anchor page at anchor.fm.fm slash social work spotlight. You can find me on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter, or you can email SW Spotlight Podcast at gmail.com. I'd love to hear from you. Please also let me know if there is a particular topic you'd like discussed, or if you or another person you know would like to be featured on the show. Next episode's guest is Michelle.

whose interest and practice focuses on attachment, group work, narrative therapy, response-based practice, systems and intergenerational trauma. Her areas of specialty include LGBTIA+, culturally and linguistically diverse, trauma, and relationship counseling. She currently works in both private practice and in NGOs to provide therapy, consultations and training, and clinical supervision for social work and counseling students. I release a new episode every two weeks. Please subscribe to my podcast so you'll notify when this next episode is available.

See you next time.