Social Work Spotlight - Episode 79: Michelle L

Episode Date: March 17, 2023

In this episode I speak with Michelle, whose interest and practice focus on attachment, groupwork, narrative therapy, Response Based Practice, systems, and intergenerational trauma. Her areas of specialty include LGBTQIA+, CALD, trauma and relationship counselling. She currently works in both private practice and in NGOs to provide therapy, consultations and training, and clinical supervision for social work/counselling students.Links to resources mentioned in this week’s episode:Sydney Inclusive Counselling (Michelle’s practice) - https://sydneyinclusivecounselling.com.au/Centre for Response-Based Practice - https://www.responsebasedpractice.com/Dulwich Centre - https://dulwichcentre.com.au/Esther Perel’s podcast Where Should We Begin? - https://www.estherperel.com/podcastDear Therapists by Lori Gottlieb’s and Guy Winch’s podcast Dear Therapists - https://lorigottlieb.com/podcast/#:~:text=Welcome%20to%20the%20Dear%20Therapists,and%20extraordinary%20challenges%20of%20life.Polysecure: Attachment, Trauma and Consensual Nonmonogamy by Jessica Fern - https://www.jessicafern.com/booksMaps of Narrative Practice by Michael White - https://wwnorton.com/books/9780393705164Retelling the Stories of Our Lives by David Denborough - https://wwnorton.com/books/Retelling-the-Stories-of-Our-Lives/The Boy Who Was Raised as a Dog by Bruce Perry and Maia Szalavitz - https://www.bdperry.com/booksKarpman’s Drama Triangle - https://karpmandramatriangle.com/This episode's transcript can be viewed here:https://docs.google.com/document/d/1S7joGp_pVhKx4iAEM_vTNCPfRfqNzyQMYqp03mVrgzs/edit?usp=sharingThanks to Kevin Macleod of incompetech.com for our theme music.

I begin today by acknowledging the Gadigal people of the Eura Nation, traditional custodians of the land on which I record this podcast, and pay my respects to their elders past and present. I extend that respect to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people listening today. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples have an intrinsic connection to this land and have cared for country for over 60,000 years, with their way of life having been devastated by colonisation. Hi and welcome to Social Work Spotlight where I showcase different areas of the profession each episode.

I'm your host, Yasmin McKee Wright, and today's guest is Michelle, whose interest and practice focuses on attachment, group work, narrative therapy, response-based practice, systems, and intergenerational trauma. Her areas of interest include LGBTIQIA-plus, culturally and linguistically diverse, trauma and relationship counseling. She currently works in both private practice and in NGOs to provide therapy, consultations and training and clinical supervision for social work and counseling students. Hi Michelle, thank you for coming on to the podcast. Really lovely to meet with you and looking forward to having a chat about your experience so far. Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm keen.

Can I ask firstly when you started as a social worker and what tree to the profession? Yeah, so I started studying social work straight out of high school. My career advisor at high school was the vice principal. I'm not 100% sure she had additional training to handle those duties. So I did miss the digging of what things intel on my own. I know I wanted to help people. I had a very, I feel like classic story, like a lot of helping professions, psychologists, social workers, counselors, youth workers, etc.

you know, I had my own mental health struggles as a younger kid. And I remember walking out of her therapy session going, that was pretty shit. Like, I feel like I could do better. And for like the narrative therapists out there, like for me, I think that was like my first, like act of resistance where I was just like, no. Like, no. And so, yeah, I like was just trying to figure out in high school which pathway to go. there were a lot of options. Again, my career advisor was not very helpful. So I had to do a lot of

Googling and a lot of flipping through like the, was it like the ETA book or something? Like it was a really thick book with all the courses. Yeah, something. And I was just like, this gives me no information. But I knew what I liked. Like I really, you know, wanted to do something that helped people. I'm not someone that particularly like statistics or maths. You know, I dropped maths as soon as I could in high school, I think in year 10. And I liked social workers and seemed holistic and the placements. You got two placements. It was in third year and fourth year and you got so kind of good a good taster of, I felt, practical experience. I've had had a few friends who got to third year and fourth year and went like, oh, this is not for me, which is, you know. So I think like,

older school placements you got four, like once every year. And I think we should go back to that. I think that would be amazing. But yeah, so I did my placements, good and bad, good and bad. And yeah, like I am glad I chose social work. It really resonates with me. Like, it's very holistic. It's really systemic. You're really looking at the person in the context of everything, like the social, political intersectionality is a race, gender, ability, everything. Like, I like that versus sort of more of an individual responsibility-focused, because I'm currently working in a space with focuses a lot of trauma and DV, and I think sometimes there can be an over-emphasis on individual responsibility on that

versus actually what happened to the person. Yeah, I definitely think one benefit, as you said, of having those placements, is that you don't get to the end of the degree and realize that it's not for you. At least those people that you were studying with could say after two years, I'm going to pivot and I'm going to go into psychology or something else, and I haven't lost necessarily those two years. But in terms of your experience, as a student, I'm keen to come back to that. What do you think it was about the not-so-great,

the negative placement experience that made it negative for you? I hesitate to say it's negative because I still really, really valued it, but it definitely was really chaotic. Like one of the things was one of my placements was a service that was super underfunded, understaffed. I think I was the first student they had after they got rid of like their admin person. And so I was handling a lot of that admin duties, which is like obviously, you know, not ideal. Yeah. But the good thing, I guess, about like having such a underfunded, understaffed organization was I got to do everything. Like stuff you normally wouldn't let, you know, first placement social work student do.

I got to do group work. I got to do case work. I got to provide training to like New South Wales Health. I got to speak to like quite high level people, et cetera, et cetera, because those are just like not enough people. And so I actually do recommend like for your first place. I spent to get something where you kind of do a bit of everything, just so you figure out actually what you like and what you don't like. Because I think it would surprise you. Like, I definitely, you know, would call myself an introvert and I can be quite shy.

Or not now, but like when I was a student, I was quite shy. And so I was like, oh, I think I like casework and I think I'm going to hate group work. Like, I don't want to do any public speaking. But it's actually the opposite. Like, I didn't enjoy casework. I really enjoyed group work and I really enjoyed developing content and providing training. And so, you know, with that in mind, I have more like direction for my next placement or my career. Isn't that interesting?

Because in order to do group work, you need to have so much confidence and that leadership stuff is what can be most challenging, not knowing the content. So was there something specific that helped you kind of find your groove in that area? I think like for, I guess in hindsight with like now years of experience, like and I love group work, I feel like it's quite a niche thing. So I feel like you either hate it or you love it. I really like groups because if you get especially a good co-facilitator, you're almost on like the psychic connection. Like when I was running ACON's DV groups with my co-facilator, we worked together previously, not as co-facilitators, but she was a caseworker where I was like a therapeutic consultant in a different organization. And so we already had like a good

rapport and a good rhythm. And so it's kind of like, you know, if someone, something kicked off in the group, like we'd make eye contact. It was like a 30 second eye contact. But, you know, we already knew my role was to keep going. She would go check on the person or, you know, vice versa. Or, oh, we're running over time. What do you want to do? you just feel like very deeply connected to your co-facilitators and there's a real good rhythm in group work and sort of sustainability in the group participants supporting each other like it's not like you're propping them up i think like a nuclear generator it's just renewable power renewable support and solidarity so i really enjoy it yeah i mean it's really hard work sometimes

because you're like exhausted afterwards emotionally but you're really rewarding yeah just running on adrenaline. But it's a good learning, I guess, then around if we go back to some of the roles that perhaps they were hoping you would fill with some of the more admin-type things, especially a first placement student, that learning around boundaries and being able to communicate or articulate what your role is would have been really, really helpful. Oh yeah, for sure. I think I've definitely, that's been something I've had to learn through the years of having good boundaries and communication. And that's something I definitely emphasize with my students because I take a lot of

counseling students with a child background like Chinese or Thai because of the current needs of the program I'm in. And, you know, in those very collectivist cultures, sometimes boundaries look different. And so, yeah, I definitely reflect too on my own cultural background as a child of migrants and my background's mainland China. And, yeah, like going into so. social work, there is like a real temptation to over function and one resource I think be great for people to look at is Cartman's drama triangle talking about people inviting

you, whether they're co-workers, bosses or clients inviting you to rescue them and to over function versus to empower them and coach them. I mean, that's definitely a struggle. I think like even though I've been practicing for a while, I think I've maybe only got a good handle on it last three years. I think certain areas of practice really, I feel like enables some of that, like, boundarylessness or stuff like the child protection system, definitely working in that they very much invite you into that overfunctioning and you have to be more strict about it versus right now I'm in a woman's service and in prior practice, it's a lot easier. Yeah. I spoke a long time ago with Rosanna, who's from Hong Kong. And in Hong Kong,

the social activism and social work are so strong. I'm not familiar how it is in China, but I know that China is a very socialist system. I'm wondering if you've had any conversations with your parents or your family around what social work is or can be in China. Yeah. So social, I think China is like very just starting. Their version of social work is very much around like sort of their version like Centrelink or Services Australia. There's not really NGOs or stuff is basically learning the government system and how to like go through the government system. Yeah, like social work didn't exist when my parents were in China and so my parents are very proud of me but they don't 100% understand what I do. They'll just tell people oh yeah like she kind of helps people you know by talking about

things. I'm like, okay, close enough. Not wrong. But yeah, I do work currently with someone who actually did a sort of social work equivalent degree in mainly in China. And it was really interesting to talk to her about, yeah, what it was like. Like, it's very different in our degrees. I think more and more we talk about like critical reflection and reflexivity and like, yeah, like pulling apart systems and stuff like that. And of course, in China, that's really not promoted. It's really like, really discouraged. So I definitely, it's definitely not one of those careers I could like take and pack up and move over there to do. Yeah, that makes sense. Have you done any further training on social work supervision then since you're doing quite a bit of that? Yeah, yeah. I saw that the

AASW came out with like an advanced supervision thing recently. I've signed up for that, but before that they did do a thing with Charles Sturt University. Like it's free if you are an AASW. member and you can prove that you're supervising. Like I had to get my boss to send them like an letterhead or something, being like, she's supervising. But that was really good because I've always done, I've always loved being involved with social work students and other counselling students. But I've always been like the fun aunt.

Like I'll come in and do a workshop or you can come shadow me. But before I took on my own students, I didn't have to have those hard conversations about performance. or like the admin side of stuff. And so like the charter single unit study, I actually really recommend and I recommended it to a co-work. And she did it too. She's a team leader and she really valued it too

because it does give you that structure that I think, yeah, you don't necessarily get with the pamphlet that comes with the student. Right. Or like the one day workshop. It was like I, you know, was able to do a sort of kind of like structure my student's placement. I was able to have conversations about them around expectations. I was able to look at my own weaknesses and strengths as a supervisor.

And like one thing I did learn was, again, I kind of had the analogy of parenting. Like, you know, being a parent or being a supervisor involves the hardest stuff. Like you can't just be the fun parent. And I didn't realize that's what I was. Like what I was struggling with was, you know, I was. so good at a lot for empowering my students and, you know, building them up. But then when there were issues, I'd be like, oh, I don't know what to do now. And so having that study was really good. Yeah. It's very specific, though. Like, I know there are clinical supervision models that are more

around like content and stuff with that, but this is very specifically for like students in the welfare sector. And that was really good. Yeah. I also saw that you did some extra training. You've done a grad dip in relationship counseling. What brought you to that and how did you think? I mean, obviously there's a huge translation to the work that you're doing. But yeah, what was the process of thinking I'm going to go back and do this formal study? I really don't want to scare people off. I think Socialics a great degree.

But I had some issues with my placements and I am that classic overfunctioner in my personal life, not in my professional life, a good boundary there. But, you know, when they released, I forgot what they called it, basically, like, you can book in for, like, a intake session with the coordinator for placements and stuff like that. I got in within the first week. I did everything right, but I didn't have a driver's license at the time. And in my thing that they offered me, it was like, you have to have a driver's license. And I was like, oh, placement coordinator lady, I'm sorry, but I think I'm not eligible. She's like, oh, no, it's fine.

It's fine. And basically it wasn't fine. There was a lot of back and forth, a lot of phone tag. And then at the end of that, three weeks, like, there were no placements left. It's therefore a really, really bad one. And then I did that. And I did it like a lot of listening to podcasts going to like panels and stuff like that. And all the people, graduates really were like, oh, yeah, like your placements is where you get your jobs.

Like a third of people get hired at their placement organizations. And then you kind of only get job offers for. stuff that's relevant to your placement experience really. A lot of people just go back and study something additional if they've had a bad placement experience. And so what I did, I was just like, I can't get hired on any of my placement experience. Like I learned a lot about myself, but I didn't actually get any of the in-depth skills that I needed. It was kind of like Jack of Orte's Master of Nunn sort of thing. And so I was just like, you know, I'm going to be pragmatic. I'm going to have to study something or I'm going to have to, yeah, wrangle something somewhere. And so I really wanted to do counseling,

but I didn't get any counseling placement experience. And so I knew I had to go back and study something, which was a little bit of a bummer because I just finished uni and I was just like, another whatever amount of time to study. It was a 12-month program. So I wanted to do something different to sort of like clinical mental health. I saw, I guess for me, I see people in the context of their situations. And for me, that means relationships, whether that's family, friends, work, romantic. And so I was like, you know, like I feel like I could make a really good impact on that side of stuff. Like I wasn't too interested in working in hospitals and like inpatient. programs or things like that, but I thought I could make a difference in, you know, parenting

programs or relationships, psychoeducation, stuff like that. And so I decided to do the grad dip in relationship counseling. And it was honestly like a risk. Like I wasn't sure where that was going to take me, but I was just working part time while doing that part time. Yeah, it took a year, but it really, I think, worked out for me. I met some great friends I'm still in touch with. to this day and I feel like it's really shaped my, yeah, frameworks for life and for my career that I think I would not have had any idea. Yeah. Is there a placement component to the GRIV dip as well? There's an optional internship, so you don't have to do it, but I did choose to do it. It was really great. I think that was like, I think I'm sure many people, I think I actually

hold on this podcast, two people say about like, yeah, the theory and the study is nice, but the real learning comes into a practical experience. And so it was a three-student team with a supervisor and a one-way mirror and a phone that you can call in. So one student at a time would see clients, whether individuals, families, couples, whatever. And then the others would be on the other side of the one-in-way mirror observing. And if they had any suggestions or if you may have or whatever, they'd like call in. And it like, you know, obviously in the beginning was very jarring and like a lot of pressure. But at the same time, because of that, you grew like exponentially. Like, you know, the phone would start off, um, ringing and then, you know, at the end of the internship,

like he didn't ring at all because you're doing great. And so I felt like that was really intense, but really good. So then with all that experience and extra training behind you, what's led to this point where you are now? Yeah, like pretty much every role I've had has had a lot of autonomy. I've, for some reason, coincidentally, come in when there's been like a restructure or like the role has the same title, but they've been like, we're completely like redoing it. And so I've had like a lot of say in actually the way it was shaped, which is really, really good for me and my personality. Yes, I've, I had like a very stereotypical, classic entry-level casework, mental health case work, contact work job. I did a very brief amount of four months in corporate at PWC doing diversity and inclusion.

It was not for me. Yeah, I had a few stints in private practice for psychologists. I've done, yeah, interlate. I've had like a lot of, similar to a lot of social workers, I've done a lot of like part-time. work that's like overlapped with each other. It's just like I think the nature of funding and stuff like that. So yeah, I think one of the biggest things that shaped me was my work at SD and Children's Services. So it used to be the brighter futures program, but now it's intensive family support, I believe. Yeah, so I came in and they were redoing the program or like my role

was like title family systemic practitioner. So I wasn't a casework. I was kind of like a consultant. like a therapeutic specialist or something like that. So not working directly with the families? I'd worked directly with the families, but I also did a lot of like case consultation, a lot of running workshops for the staff and like running group supervision. It was a really team sort of based work and environment, which I really, really loved. I think that's really shaped me in planning my future roles because right now I do two days a week at an NGO doing counselling and two days a week in private practice. And I don't think I'm going to

want to change that for the foreseeable future because private practice is great and the level autonomy allows me the clients. I get to choose to see, et cetera, et cetera. But like the solidarity and the sort of like emotional support you get from working at a team, like you just can't get in private practice. And so my purpose for working at the NGO is both ethics for accessibility. so like people can access my services for free but also for me for sustainability and self-care as a social worker so yeah i think that's a huge thing i learned about myself and i think yeah more people need to think about like what creates that sort of sustainability and that balance yeah i'd love to hear about your ACON work. Can you tell me more about it? Yeah, so ACON had a contract out to design and

facilitate victim survivor groups for the queer community. It was really a really good experience. What else is there to say? This was like the moments where you had that sort of psychic connection with your co-facilitator. My friend was the co-facilitator. So we knew each other beforehand. even though we haven't worked with each other in that capacity. But it was really valuable because I think if we didn't have that in other groups I've run, and other groups I've seen people run, you have to work to do that. And if you don't click with your co-facilitator, that's like something you have to work on. Like it's not really a negotiable.

It actually got extended because of COVID. It went, was face-to-face, which I prefer, and then went online, which made it a little bit difficult. I think engagement was challenging in that sense. But it was super valuable, and we got, so it was Hunter, Illawarra, and Sydney. So for the three sites, they each had a ACON staff member, like a permanent member, and they each got a contracted co-facilitator. So I was in the Sydney sort of metro area, but we got, when we were designing the group and discussing it over Zoom. We're working as a group again, which I love. We had, yeah,

a great program sort of project manager, a person that didn't shut us down. You know, we were talking about, oh, like, we're in a response-based practice, narrative therapy, all this, all the stuff. She's just like frantically typing it down and making it into a structure. Yeah, like I'd love to do it again, but I think it's probably just a matter of funding like a lot of things are. but I have gotten on some of like my online sort of therapy profiles, like when people look for therapists and stuff like that, little messages are like, oh, when are you running this group? Is it running and stuff like that? And always I feel kind of bad where I have to be like, sorry, like it's not currently running.

It sounds like in a lot of those roles that you've had, they're not necessarily targeted at social work or they're not, the recruitment process isn't specifically wanting a social worker. did you feel as though there was something specific about social work that lent itself well to those roles? Yeah, I think social work, I think at its core, is very person-centered and trauma-informed and very intersectional, which like really added, I think, value to the roles, because in the roles I've worked, you know, they've been psychologists, they've been psychology students and graduates, counselors, other various professions.

And it's always been like interesting to see the difference in take. Like, you know, we do share core values, but I guess like the little nuances are a bit different. For me, social work. I'm very biased, obviously. I think social work's the best. And so I think just social work lends itself to like bigger picture thinking, whereas someone might go see a problem or an issue.

in like a very like specific way. I feel like social work allows me to go. Here is a variety of perspectives or frameworks. You could look at it with and solutions. I can offer you and stuff like that. So yeah, like even in my current role, it's really interesting to see because I'm currently employed as a counselor at NGO. And my co-worker who's also a counselor, has a counseling degree.

And it's very interesting to even see our differences in the way we work. Yeah. I also, I will comment that like social work also I think has a really big emphasis on boundaries and work life balance and stuff like that that really value. Like that's a huge ongoing conversation where I feel like maybe some psychologists or counsellors I've met haven't had that as big of a part of their like formal training or supervision. Yeah. And I guess at the same time you can have two people with exactly the same training and they're going to have completely different approaches. Yeah, for sure, which is great. I think that's what builds a team is having that capacity to bounce ideas on and to build on your strengths. Yeah. There's not just one thing I think that would make a good social worker in any

role. Do you have an opportunity to do any grant writing for some of those programs to get more funding? Yes, I do. It's always like money and funding is always issue. I think when you're working in NGOs. So yes, I think a good thing about the current program I'm in is that we work really heavily in the Cald community. And so like one of my big focus is getting a cult-specific counselor or getting funding to do cult-specific counselling. Yeah, because I think it's such a gap. Yeah. And services, right now. Yeah, and I'm sure that you're very reflective and mindful of your own positionality and how you bring that into your professional life. But having done some of that counseling with people from different backgrounds, something you're needing to be mindful of as well so that you're not

bringing too much in or taking too much out of the situation. Oh yeah, for sure. I think like this is like kind of a boring thing to say, but like I say this a lot too. everyone is that being a good therapist is not just like a career it's a lifestyle self-cares not just the sexy take a bath take i know two weeks holiday or whatever it's like the boring stuff i go to try to get enough sleep every day i try to eat regularly so i know like my mood's good i do my own therapy, I do my own supervision, like doing all that sort of stuff. So at a baseline, I'm like a good enough therapist and it's good enough for me to ethically feel. Yeah, so like one thing I do encourage and of course, like I'm not forcing anyone to do it, but I say to all my colleagues and

my students is do your own therapy. It's different to supervision. Do your own supervision for sure, but also do your own therapy. You've got to, yeah, do that work to grow. professionally in addition to personally yeah and tell me about your private practice when did that come about how did it come about what was that process like for you oh i'm going to sound like such a grouch so so what happened was i was working part-time in that therapeutic sort of specialist role three days a week and that was enough for me and i was like i want to do something else additional two days a week and i worked for a few years and i worked for a few NGO relationship counseling programs and I worked for two psychologists private practices and I hated it.

I just did not enjoy working under specific constraints and specific policies and specific sort of demographics they just kind of assigned to me and so it was kind of like the lesser of all evils for me to work for myself. That's never been the goal. I am a very big stereotype. I am very bad at business and admin and math. I did humanities and social sciences and stuff all through high school and through university. The one business gen ed I did in university, I did in university, about 75. Like, I just, I struggle. But for me, I was just like, look, if I run my own business and work for myself. I control how much I charge my clients. I control who I see, like the demographic I market to. And yeah, I've been working for myself for over three years now and it's been good.

So for me, I specialize in sort of relationship counseling, family of origin stuff, relationship with yourself. I also work with non-monogamy and with the queer community. with people of color, that sort of stuff. Like, that's where I, like, really direct my marketing to. And those are the interest areas for prior practice, and those other clients I get. And I can do that because of the level of control I have, versus when I worked for other people,

they'd get me, like, very specific with relationship counseling. I used to get so many people who just, who were couples, who just hated each other. And I know that's, like, a very simplified way of putting it, but it was very much like middle-class, middle-aged, people who hated each other and didn't really want to make it work versus in my relationship counseling, people who usually seek me out have done their own therapy, have done their own work, and actually you're very, like, engaged and willing to try, look at themselves critically

and stuff like that. Yeah, I think for me, one of the most valuable things I think is if you do want to do private practice is pick a niche and market to that niche. Like, don't do just generalist counseling. I think that's like a mistake a lot of people make. They're like, you know, I don't want to miss any clients. I'm going to market to everyone. But then that doesn't make you attractive to anyone. It's like, pick something and stick to it. And for me, that's really worked out. I really enjoy it. I really love how much it's been so rewarding. I don't really know what else to say about it. It's, but at the same time, I never want to do full-time private practice.

It is quite lonely. It is hard work. I work like 11 to 7.30 on those days. And, you know, I'm like shoving food in my mouth in between sessions and going home exhausted. Yeah. Do you find it hard to keep to those two days, though? I used to. That's a really good question.

So I used to, when I controlled my own calendar, what I do. what I do now is I use a CRM, like client record management system and calendar and processing all in one sort of software thing called Power Diary. And instead, I don't, you know, when people go, oh, when are you next available? You know, it's really tempting to just fit them in one session before your usual session or one session after your usual last session. Instead, I now just have an online booking system and I'm like, oh, you can just go online and check and book yourself.

So there's no temptation of me pushing my boundaries and fitting someone in on my dates off or anything like that. It's now just, oh yeah, like, I'm not quite sure. Like, just take a look at my online calendar. It's very straightforward, yeah. Is there any crossover between the private practice and the NGO? Are you able to keep that really quite separate? I'm able to keep that really quite separate, I think, specifically because my NGO work. I work with a lot of houseless people.

I work with a lot of people who cannot. afford to pay privately for therapy like at all or things like that and so there's like not a lot of crossover yeah so the NGO sounds like it's very much crisis support that government funded assisting people with the basic necessities and then like if you're thinking maslo's i guess in my head i've got these very basic essential needs and then the private practice is focusing on people who have those but they're wanting to work on that higher level stuff yeah yeah that's probably pretty accurate the caseworkers i've and the community department worker probably does a lot of the practical maslow stuff but i am there holding that psychological space for those big and my heart and emotions yeah

oh that's so interesting is that something i know you like the two and the two let's say they turned around and had more funding for you tomorrow what would you do i would hire a Thai or Chinese speaking counselor and I would run more groups, I think. Yeah, I think I'm open to doing one more day of work. Yeah, but it would have to be something really specific like a group or something like that. I have talked about it with people at work and being like, you know, what would we do with that extra funding? And I think, yeah, one of the big gaps is more therapeutic groups because it's very hard to justify funding for groups. It's harder to measure outcomes and it's not as like sexy to people who are handing out funding unfortunately. At the same time you could argue that within one

hour or two hours you're servicing so many more people. Yes, yes, definitely. Yeah. There are discussions. There are discussions in place. We'll just have to see what happens. Where does the funding mostly come from? What's the priority there? Yeah, so interestingly enough, I work for quite a big NGO where they run a lot of other programs that are funded from DCJ and funded from other places. My specific program were a little bit of a little offshoot. We're actually privately funded from aged care profits. I've like literally never heard of it before I started this job.

So interesting. Because you'd have a lot of younger people in your cohort, right? Yeah. So I, yeah, I'm not 100% sure how the funding side works for it. But I do know in some ways it's better because there is a sense of security. Like we're not going to be defunded because, you know, DCJ gave the tender to another service in the area or something like that. But also it is harder to get.

any additional funding. Yeah. What kind of groups are you running at the moment? I'm not running any groups at the moment, but we're looking at running more TV victim survivor groups in the future and also just trauma, sort of therapy groups in the future, like a more general sort of, you know, if you've had any sort of trauma or interpersonal violence experience, it doesn't necessarily have to be intimate partner violence and be, you know, historic from parents or from institutions, things like that. So interesting.

What kind of support do you require then, not just in terms of coordinating both of these roles, but just the very heavy content that you're dealing with? Yeah, I think, like, for me, supervision has been key. So I have a lot of supervision probably more than any regular social worker. Just by choice, like I have kind of, supervision from my organization and I paid for clinical supervision out of pocket.

It's tax deductible, everyone. Go get it. Getting a good supervisor is really important. It's the same as getting like a good therapist. Like you might have to try a few different people. I have different supervisors from my different realms of practice. So I have someone specifically for my more mainstream relationship counseling. I have someone for my trauma therapy sort of stuff. And I have someone from my anti-oppressive practice and working with non-monogamy and stuff like that. So, yeah, it's a lot and it can get expensive, but I think it's like the best way to develop once you've graduated and, you know, you can do courses and stuff like that, but like, really

it's reflecting on your, like, active practice that you learn stuff. I also really try to nourish myself by going to peer development groups and stuff that's, like, there's like collective solidarity and even if it's like content if you're going to a workshop and you already know the content like just being around people who have the same attitudes and the same sort of like values as you can be really nourishing and really empowering and stuff like that for me I just like to balance my yeah my schedule I don't know if that's the right word for it my schedule to incorporate like events and groups and stuff like that and do you have an idea of what sort of other training you want to do in the future? Yeah, so I'm currently seeing a dietitian to do

work on my own personal relationship with my body and food. And so now I'm going a deep dive into health at every size, sort of other anti-diet culture sort of stuff. Like that's going to be my focus for a bit. Yeah. That's so interesting. Are you interested at all in maybe becoming an accredited mental health social worker, given that you've got such a significant counselling background? Yeah, I'm so stop and start on that. One of the things is my current NGO role allows me to see people for free without any limits to sessions and things like that. So that avenue meets sort of my ethics of like accessibility and my private practice, I charge actually quite a low fee in comparison and because I'm not an accredited social worker, my current processes of having people

pay when they book has really cut down on no-shows or cancellations and give me a steady stream of income and security. So there's like a financial element to it where I'm like, if I did the accreditation, I could charge more, but at the same time, I would have to hire sort of like a virtual assistant casual to help chase up on payments. to do the paperwork for stuff like that. And so it's kind of like I think I would pursue it if I was to leave my current NGO role so I could provide bulk-build services

to people who can't access me otherwise. But currently I think I'm not in a rush. No, that's fair. And from other people I've talked to, it is quite a process. So you kind of need to have space, you know, and energy to be able to really dedicate yourself to that. I've heard a lot of other people on other podcasts, but also people that I've spoken with

who are going into private practice. And so I don't know if my understanding of how prevalent it is is slightly warped. But do you feel as though there is a shift in social work to going into private practice? Is it becoming easier perhaps at the moment? I am hearing like a lot of people wanting to go into private practice. I think I've noticed that shift in terms of like when I earned this. This is purely anecdotal evidence where, you know, I ask students or graduates and being like, oh, what do you want to do?

As a career is sort of like, you know, end goal sort of thing. And they'll be like, oh, I want to be an accredited mental social worker. And I'll be like, oh, okay. And that wasn't part of the conversation when I graduated. Like, that was not even on our radar. So I think there has been a shift. Yeah, definitely. Do you feel as though there's a better understanding more recently of the impacts of trauma maybe

or even just how we support people who are experiencing diversity, especially with sexuality. Yeah, for sure. And I think also more people from the communities of LGBTQ plus A and people with trauma and lived experience are more and more taking up space as practitioners and not just as consumers of the services, I think. So, like, people with lived experience, like it's no longer something that's shameful or something you have to hide or get over it's now like a source of strength and a source of like knowledge and wisdom that you tap into you know with appropriate boundaries and use of self etc etc but yeah yeah that's a really good point do you feel as though the funding has there been a shift in I guess what the government is wanting to

prioritize yeah it's really hard to tell it's changes with you know obviously every time our party changes our dominant party changes but I think the problem is like you know our politicians aren't social workers or teachers, they're trained lawyers and economics and, I don't know, other stuff. And so they're not necessarily best place to actually know what's valuable and what's good bang for your buck for services. I guess one good example would be Headspace in my experience with clients who've tried to use Headspace or tried to get the kids support through Headspace. Like it's funded in a way, like, you know, the media writes about it and it's funded in a way where like, oh, look, it's a one-stop shop for everything. But actually, it's more like a franchise.

Like you think it's, oh, like they're all connected and they all run the same way and all that sort of stuff. It's actually not, like some of the headspaces are run by the same organizations. But just as often they're run by separate organizations. Like Stride runs one. flourish runs worn, all this stuff. And so they run differently and they run for profit. I think that's something that people don't realize is like the people who are youth access clinicians or something like that, the title they have.

Like what they're doing is bulk billing, but they're still, they're not like technically a free service. And so like profit is still really considered. And I've had clients and clients who are parents. of kids who try to access headspace, like actually have quite negative interactions with headspace, like massive wait times, bad sort of practice sort of things and stuff like that. So actually, you know, what would be better would be actually pumping more money

into just community mental health and more positions and community mental health and like lowering the standard for access and stuff like that. In the meantime, like private practice is like, again, meeting the gaps, I guess, for people who can afford it. To get a little bit political, like this neoliberal society with capitalism, it's kind of like, oh, okay, cool. If you have money, you can access services. Everything else, it's fee for service.

Yeah. I think, like, another, I guess hot tip is, like, most NGOs, even though they charge a fee on the sliding scale, if you tell them you can't afford it, they won't turn you away for at least six sessions. Okay. Yeah, no, I didn't know. that that's really good to know. But I'm wondering then if you're looking at purely free services,

regardless of where that funding comes from, what's the difference then between a community mental health team and an NGO that runs counselling support? How did those models differ? Yeah. So with NGOs that run counselling support, like for example, a child and family service or an adolescent counselling service, it still technically charges a fee when I think it will be on a sliding scale, like, from, like, I don't know, like $10 to $135. And it's partially subsidized by the government. Like, that's how the government funding comes into it. But technically they still have to charge a fee versus community mental health where the

standard for access is higher. So you have to be in more psychological distress, like risk of significant harm, that sort of stuff. But the service itself is completely free. So that's kind of the difference. and like that sort of distinguishing sort of thing. And often many services, everything's underfunded and understaffed. So you really have to meet a really high criteria.

Like I had a woman whose daughter said she wanted to kill herself, but that was not enough to meet the standard to access community mental health care. They were just like, you have to jump through all these hoops, like get a GP assessment, try mindfulness, some other stuff. And it was kind of like, this is really not. time like this young person's seeking help for suicide ideation but because the standard's so high because the needs are so high they've kind of you're forced to be bumped down to services who aren't equipped to provide that care really yeah so the accessibility is just reduced substantially

if someone wanted to know more about the type of work that you do where would you send them is there are any good training, any good reading that you think they should check out? Yeah, for sure. You said you were keen on podcasts. Yeah. Yeah. So I, like, have a list. So I'm happy to send that to you.

But specifically, in terms of, like, my practice, I can check out my website and see my specific therapeutic models and why I chose them. And some links you actually had in the past, too, with a previous guest on your stuff, like response-based practice, the dolly. Center for Narrative Therapy, anti-pressive practice. A few things that I think maybe haven't been mentioned, like ADHD and Autistic Affirming Therapy, how that could be different and for people who are more interested in like relationship counseling around like EFT and Gottman and Pact podcasts that I think are great. If you want to do therapy is where should we

begin by Esther Perel. I know that's a very. really popular one so it's probably set already and dear therapists by laurie gottib and guy which they spent like a single session both podcasts and sort of sort of single session with clients and give sort of feedback and like a therapeutic intervention at the end it's really interesting yeah did you have to do any specific training for group leadership I didn't but I also I choose to do like a lot of non-man mandatory sort of training and stuff like that. Always I recommend people to participate in the therapeutic model or group or whatever it is that they want to facilitate or provide first.

So if you want to run like a group for something, I recommend you, if possible, be a participant in it first to really experience it from the other side. It's a really good idea. And are there any workshops for your private practice that you're? organizing? I'm thinking this is not so much a workshop so much as maybe a resource. I'm thinking I'm developing. I have quite a few people come to me wanting to explore non-monogamy, ethical non-monogamy, and not sure where to start. And I feel like, okay, I kind of just give the same advice or guidance for that. So maybe like creating like a resource or something like that that people can just look at and do that and then when they come in they already have a bit of a background

or scaffolding for that versus me talking at them for a session yeah yeah nice is there anything else before we finish up that you wanted to talk about about your experience or why you do what you do i just always have a rant for like social workers and people in the industry that like to not to settle and not to buy into the neoliberal narrative. You know, if you burn out, it's because you're not good enough at self-care or work-life balance. Like, that's not the case. The system is broken and you don't have to settle.

It's okay to go through a few jobs until you find one that is supportive and supports life balance and does not have the narrative of work until you burn out, take a two-week break, come back, work until you burn out, take a two-week break. like that's not normal. People will tell you that's normal. It's not. Mm-hmm. That's. Yeah. Yeah. And coming back to what you were saying about supervision as a process of learning and reflecting on your own practice. So incredibly important to inform the work that you're doing and particularly if you're working with people who have trauma backgrounds and really wanting to be mindful of their experience and supporting them to tell their story with,

the narrative approach, but in a way that's not going to retramatize. So a lot of that would be that supervision and different approaches to therapy. For sure. Yeah. I also love that you do additional training. I think I said recently talking to another guest, life begins as a social worker when you start working. There's only so much that you can learn from uni.

And then it's just figure out what you're interested in and go off and do learning, do reading, because for you definitely I feel like it's helped you to see people in their context and to make sense of what you're seeing and what you're doing. But also I love that you've developed so much confidence through the group work as well. And you had some really great program managers who were willing to tailor the content and the approach instead of just saying, well, this is how we've always done things and this has worked in the past. They've been able to say, this is Michelle's strength and this is what she wants to do with the program.

So that's invaluable. That really means that they trust you and they have confidence in your own capacity. And I guess finally, what you were saying about representation, I think you called it taking up space, but supporting people who have had that lived experience to really take ownership of, and even just from a professional perspective, you said more people are coming into these roles who have that lived experience. and hopefully that will just continue to develop in terms of our profession and in terms of psychology and counseling roles to inform and maybe build some research.

I don't know. I'm sure there's someone wonderful out there doing research on what are some great new approaches or, you know, what are the stats there on effectiveness so that we can then be applying for more funding, which essentially is what it comes down to. in these NGOs you just yeah you need to be able to sell yourself which i don't think we're necessarily very good at no we're too we're too nice we're too humble i think yeah we're definitely very modest so yeah and i think the people that i've spoken to who have moved into private practice have had to get very good at selling themselves and to as you said demonstrate this is my niche

this is what i'm good at and i'm going to dedicate myself to this rather than taking on a referral for something else just because it's come my way, I really want to focus on this and develop that and build a name for myself in this area because, you know, you don't know how much longer you want to do this for. You want to get the most out of the experience in the time that you have. Yeah. Thank you again so much, Michelle. I've loved hearing about all of this wonderful work that you're doing

and just being able to network with someone who's doing some great stuff. So thank you for taking the time to do this. No worries. Thank you for having me. Thanks for joining me this week. If you'd like to continue this discussion or ask anything of either myself or Michelle, please visit my anchor page at anchor.fm slash social work spotlight. You can find me on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter, or you can email SW Spotlight Podcast at gmail.com.

I'd love to hear from you. Please also let me know if there is a particular topic you'd like discussed, or if you or another person you know would like to be featured on the show. Next episode's guest is Erin, who has over 20 years of experience working in mental health and rehabilitation services in Sydney, Brisbane and London. After spending the first 15 years of her career working in the field of child and adolescent mental health and pediatric rehab, Erin began working in adult neurological rehabilitation. She has recently commenced an exciting new role at care rehab, a service which provides

specialist social work and psychosexual therapy services. I release a new episode every two weeks. Please subscribe to my podcast so you'll notify when this next episode is available. See you next time.