Social Work Spotlight - Episode 89: Amy

Episode Date: August 4, 2023

In this episode I speak with Amy, an Accredited Mental Health Social Worker, EMDR accredited Consultant and Parts Work Practitioner who is an enthusiast in all things somatic and creative. Amy started her journey in child and family work but was able to experience a range of work within the education, homelessness, community health and tertiary education sector. Amy co-owns a private practice in the Hunter Valley with other like-minded professionals and hopes others have the support and courage to work towards their dream roles.Links to resources mentioned in this week’s episode:Bessel van der Kolk - https://www.besselvanderkolk.com/Bruce Perry - https://www.bdperry.com/Oprah Winfrey and Bruce Perry in Conversation - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUAL8RVvkyY&ab_channel=SXSWEDUDr Gabor Maté - https://drgabormate.com/Gabor Maté interview on The Tim Ferriss Show - https://tim.blog/2022/09/07/dr-gabor-mate-myth-of-normal/The Joe Rogan Experience - https://open.spotify.com/show/4rOoJ6Egrf8K2IrywzwOMkEvery Memory Deserves Respect (Michael Baldwin and Deborah Korn) - https://www.everymemorydeservesrespect.com/Seva House - https://www.sevahouse.com.au/Amy’s business, Bridge Back EMDR and Consulting - https://www.bridgebackconsulting.com/Understanding EMDR podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/emdr-in-a-fish-bowl/id1680387875?i=1000611191438This episode's transcript can be viewed here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vJOhLZm1WIL4xbHucMeQ3TlHLHH5--Jvr3D2wb3VVVs/edit?usp=sharingThanks to Kevin Macleod of incompetech.com for our theme music.

I begin today by acknowledging the Gadigal people of the Eura Nation, traditional custodians of the land on which I record this podcast, and pay my respects to their elders past and present. I extend that respect to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people listening today. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples have an intrinsic connection to this land and have cared for country for over 60,000 years, with their way of life having been devastated by colonisation. Hi and welcome to Social Work Spotlight where I showcase different areas of the profession in each episode.

I'm your host, Yasmin McKee Wright, and today's guest is Amy, an accredited mental health social worker, EMDR accredited consultant, and parts work practitioner, who is an enthusiast in all things somatic and creative. Amy started her journey in child and family work, but was able to experience a range of work within the education, homelessness, community health and tertiary education sector. Amy co-owns a private practice in the Hunter Valley with other like-minded professionals and hopes others have the support and courage to work towards their dream roles. Thanks so much Amy for joining me today to have a chat about your social work experience so far. Thank you for having me, Yasmin. It's so great to be able to reconnect with, you know, the social work community. I think that's really important. and also raising the profile of social work as well.

So thank you for the work that you do. Thanks for that. I always ask firstly when you started as a social worker and what drew you to the profession? Yeah, so my journey's been a little bit all over the place, but I first graduated probably 2011. Back then I studied psych science up at Griffiths, uni up at the Gold Coast,

and moved back to my little rural country town to put all the skills and theory that I had learned into action. And wow, just reflecting on that, I just think, oh, because I was so green. And I, you know, really at that time, didn't know what I was doing, but I knew that I wanted to do something that was around working with people in the community. So I was working for an early intervention service at that time that probably catered a lot more to child protection. And, funnily enough, growing up,

up in my small country town. I had no idea what social work was. I didn't know what the degree entailed. I didn't know the framework. And it wasn't until I sort of had work experience in the industry and kept hearing more and more about social work from my colleagues. I think it was social justice really got me. And I went, yeah, this is something that I wanted to study. So I graduated probably back in 2016 and since then I have just loved being a social worker. I've loved challenging the stereotype of what people think social workers do. I think we all probably experienced that as well. And now that my career has probably ended me in the private practice sector and working with complex clients therapeutically, that's something that I'm really passionate about and somewhere

that I never thought I'd be able to end up. Yeah. And, and, And did you have to return to Queensland in order to do your MSW? Were you able to do that in your town? How did that all work out? Yeah. So I changed uni's to do my social work degree. So I did that at the University of New England in Almerdell, which wasn't far from where I was living at the time. Okay.

And my placements were, you know, really varied. So the first placement that I did was actually in child safety. I was living in Queensland, sorry, at the time. Right. And, oh, you know, looking back, Yasmin, I just go, wow, my whole career at that point was in early intervention and working with children. And I thought, I want to work in child protection. I want to see what happens on the other end because so many families I'd work with

had either escalated from there or I wanted to support them avoiding going into the child protection arena. Yeah. So I had all these dreams and these thoughts about, yes, I'm going to go into this placement and this is where I'm going to end up. Thank goodness for placements because once I got there, I went, I hate this. This is not where I wanted to end up. And in my second placement, I was offered one in health, in community health.

And at that time, I relocated again because my husband was in the military. And I went, I don't want to do health because our uni was so heavy on health. Well, guess what happened? I ended up in community health meeting the best team of social workers who have been the most influential people in my career and ended up starting private practice with my supervisor. So you've heard it here first. Your supervisors and your mentors can be life changing. Yeah, and lifelong.

Absolutely. I'm so proud to call the mentors that I met at community health really, really great friends. and, you know, one of them who is very influential in my career and my practice, we're looking at developing a lot of programs, training and things that we've been passionate about together because we were drawn, I think, together from the same energy, the same passion that we had for where we want to take things. And I always joke, I call her Yoda because she's a Yoda and I'm her Luke Skywalker. That's for any Star Wolf fans. out there. I would shout out to you, but it's been very humbling to feel like a colleague now.

So that relationship has evolved as well. That's so beautiful. And while you were completing the MSW and trying to get all your placements sorted, you were also, were you working at the time? I feel like that was around the time you also had a young family. What on earth was going on and how did you coordinate all that? I'd like to say probably a haze of coffee in his, hysteria. Just joking, but at the time I was working at a specialised alternative learning setting. So I was working in a high school as a school council with children who had very high mental health needs. I was supporting my husband who was in the military at the time. And we just sort of not long had our little daughter. So things were definitely hectic. Things were a little bit

crazy at that time and I look back and I think, oh, how did people do it? You know, I used to always come home and say to my husband, how do other parents do this? Or how do people who are caring for their family members do this? And when I got to the end, I have to say that it probably was all worth it. Yeah. And from what I was reading, you did actually work for the defense forces at one point. there was a defence transition aid role that I saw. Yeah, so that role was pretty interesting. So at that point, I'd only ever worked in alternative settings for schools. And this was my first mainstream role within a mainstream education setting.

And I was working with primary school kids. So in my practice now, I still see really young children up until, you know, 60, 7 year old people. I love the diversity of working with a large variety of people. from different ages and cultures. But working, I think, within the confines of defence and supporting children whose parents had either been deployed or had come back from overseas deployments

and really struggling, adjusting back into civilian life, I think it really opened the doors and understanding for me to see how family units can all experience different, I think levels of adversity of trauma and the different stages of how generational trauma can be passed down. And I say that with such admiration for people who've been deployed or have been involved in the military because it is such a huge and amazing adventure for so many families. But I think also it really highlights the importance of mental health being out there, being normalized. And not just for people who have been.

deployed but also people who have suffered in transitioning back to a civilian life and their family members who dedicate their life to supporting their spouse who's in such a high-demand role. I don't know if it's similar in the Australian military, but my mum grew up in US military and constantly moving around. So there was this real sense of displacement and not being able to hold on to anything, be that material or. or even just friendships and different countries as well, not just in the US. You know, mostly she grew up in Germany, but in different towns. And it's interesting looking back and hearing what you're saying about that trauma.

And it's not necessarily trauma from an action or event or wartime. It can just be that sense of where do I belong and how do I now pick up the pieces and try to build my identity in this place where I perhaps know no one. Absolutely. And you've hit that on the head as well. Yasmin, I'm so interested in your experiences too because we think of trauma as violence, abuse or neglect. I know that's where my mind primarily goes to

because that's the cohort I usually work with, but being able to work with different and various stages of trauma, if we think of it as an experience that has, impacted us holistically. You know, there's medical trauma, there's identity, there's, you know, marginalisation, there's living in areas where you don't have access to educational health. Those are all experiences that impact our living and daily life. And for children that I saw as well, that moved around a lot, you know, there was such a, I think, connection for me to be able to support them in the best way possible because you're right identity is so important

who you belong with who we can call on you know support the personal experiences I had was oh you know my child's going into daycare and they're asking for an emergency contact who do I put down and you you form these really intense friendships with other families because they're going to be a rock throughout the whole placement or posting that you're at You've also worked with migrants and refugees and that also can develop a similar sort of working relationship, at least in my experience, of sometimes you are this person's only connection to this area and that can be really hard in terms of trying to not create a sense of dependency and trying to create this confidence and linking within communities.

So it's interesting how that different aspect of your work has come through as well. Yeah, that was such a powerful experience as well because a lot of the migrants that I'd worked with were fleeing either domestic violence relationships or they were fleeing countries that were hugely unstable and unsafe. And it's interesting that we can be the sole person that they know in the country or the person they depend on. Well, we can just as easily be another person within a system that they're afraid of, that they'll be at the mercy of.

Yeah. They'll be reporting to. And that really taught me the importance of power structures. Mm-hmm. And being able to understand that working for an organization or a system, we can at times replicate trauma. Yeah. And that was the same in education as well.

the way in which we gather information or request things such as their whereabouts who they're having over to their own house. And we do these things because we want people to be safe and we want services to be equitable to everyone and we want to be able to be answerable to the organisations that fund us. But in saying that, you know, on what level are we recreating trauma for people by expecting them to respond to a system that is so different culturally. So these roles that you've undertaken since completing the social work, I can easily see how they could perhaps be filled by someone who does have a background in psychological science. Do you think knowing what you know now and having had your experience,

could these have been done without the social work training and how might that have been different, do you think? I think they could, but in saying that the framework of what I know now and I feel really passionate about with social work, social work has such an emphasis on learning environments, context, being holistic in our assessment and understanding of systems, whether they be micro mezzo or macro. And in looking back, I mean, we all sort of look back, well, maybe I'm the only one, but we all sort of look back. And I think of how I practice when I first graduated and I go, oh, if I knew what I knew now. But I think that's something that social work is so adamant and strong about is that we continue to learn. We continue to grow as practitioners and as people.

And how we show up for our community and for ourselves is really an ongoing process. And if we can stay committed to that, if we can stay open with being committed to learning, being committed to growing and learning from others. You know, we're not the expert of people's lives. There's so much that my clients have taught me that I would never have read in a textbook or stayed insular for that matter as well. Yeah.

Working in a job that is removed from the front line. So I credit my enjoyment of private practice in therapy with complex populations that in my mind that couldn't have happened for me without the 10 years prior of understanding what it's like to connect with someone. Yeah, because that's what we're doing at the end of the day, isn't it? That's right, creating connections and maintaining. Absolutely.

What is your current role now? Is there at all a typical day? What might that look like? Typical day, so I'm self-employed, and the great thing is that my two colleagues who I met at Community Health, And look, shout out to my old manager June because you were nothing but encouraging and supportive when we told you that all three of us were going to leave. We had, so three of us social workers, myself included, got this idea that we were going to start a private practice. We wanted to work the way that we wanted to work without the bureaucracy, without politics and the red tape that in a sense has to be there in any government or non-government organisation.

It happened really fast, actually. It was a bit like speed dating. So one of my colleagues who I mentioned before, she was looking at real estate.com.com. One day, because we're just fantasising. We're having this conversation over Facebook Messenger. What would it be like if we opened a place where we could work with the people who can't afford?

You know, can't afford good quality private therapy because money is a barrier. because privilege or access or opportunities or transport is barrier. And I'll talk about how we did that in a second, but, you know, we invited ourselves to an inspection. That same weekend, we fell in love with this beautiful old steam master's house in Maitland that had a pool, that had garden beds, that was everything that was the opposite of a clinical room that we'd experienced so far.

And in that moment, we're like, yep, let's do it. So word of caution to everyone, learn from my impulsivity, that this impulsivity paid off. And since then, we've just grown. We've, you know, got some beautiful clinical psychologists, registered psychologists that work with us as well. We've got a beautiful holistic arts therapist. We're looking to add to our team as well. We'd love to have a massage therapist. We'd love to have OTs or speeches because the way in which we work has to be bottom up. And what I mean by that is in working with complexity and trauma. We're really strong advocates at Sea of the House around working with the body as well as the mind

because healing can't occur if they're not in connection with each other. So just rewinding back from that, the main cohorts that certainly myself and another social worker, they're C, so we're both accredited mental health social workers. We see a lot of victims of crime clients. So a lot of these clients have been exposed to some form of, crime that's happened either interpersonally or within the community. New South Wales departments of community and justice are able to subsidise 22 hours initially of those appointments. So essentially those clients can come and see us for free. There is no expectation of payment on their end because

we're approved victim services counsellors and we've been able to show and demonstrate as tier two counsellors that we have expertise in the areas of complexity or an area that's considered that you would have to have additional training and understanding of. So we're very committed to that. In private practice land, the pay is pretty terrible compared to what other practices could make. But in saying that our vision of creating Siva house, and Siva was a word that meant, well, still means selfless service from the heart. I was going to ask about that just because my dad's family is Greek and Sever obviously pronounced slightly differently is one of our names. It's one of our family names. It's short for Sevastee. Oh, how beautiful is that?

But yeah, we call like my aunt and her granddaughter both sever. So it's interesting. Oh, that's beautiful. What a beautiful connection. I need to tell them that that's another way of conceptualizing the meaning of pain. Absolutely. And if they're very selfless, very compassionate people, it's all in the name. You know, it's wonderful. But, you know, that name encapsulates what we created, Civa House to be about. It's about serving the community. It's about serving people so that they get an equitable service.

And in doing that, we're committed to our further learning. We're committed to staying in touch with current research, a lot of our modalities that we provide the MDI. are. So that's gained a lot of popularity and a lot more understanding. So that stands for eye movement, desensitization, reprocessing. Oh, that's always such a mouthful. I'm so glad that I've said that. Yeah, well done. So that's in a nutshell. It's a therapy that doesn't require a lot of talking on the client's end. It's reprocessing traumatic memories that have become stuck in memory networks in the brain. How we do that is by using bilateral stimulation. So I think that's probably what EMDR is most known for, is it's crazy, you know, finger moving in front of clients or getting them

to what we call butterfly tapping on their chest. But what I'm so passionate about with EMDR is that it is such an amazing protocol and it doesn't take, you know, endless sessions or endless years compared to when I was using talk-based therapies. And, you know, disclaimer, this is my experience. I have respect for other modalities as well. I'm working with the complexity of the clients that I do, EMDR plus resource therapy, which is ego states, if people are familiar with that.

Those two therapies together has just been an absolute game changer for the way that I work. Yeah. I've actually had a couple of people tell me that the funding for victim services is perhaps not where it should be and that it precludes some people from accessing really professional experienced therapists, but it sounds as though you've been able to manage that funding and the subsidy through your business model that still provides that access. Has that been difficult or is it just something that's come naturally for you? No, probably something that's

pretty naturally because our business structure probably is different to most as we're a collective of therapists and we're for sole traders that sit under seabre house. In saying that though, in terms of accessing good quality treatment, that's why we're committed as EMDR therapists providing victim services because you're absolutely right. Our wait lists are extensive. My colleague and myself, our books are being closed, you know, for a year ahead. And that simply demand is, well, in our region in the Upper Hunter and in Newcast,

there's a bit of a grey area between, you know, Maitland up until Musselbrook or Scone, where there are not as many EMDR therapists as what you would find in Newcastle or in Central Coast. But I think what we can think for COVID, and look, there's not much, is the fact that telehealth really took off. Yeah. And to go back to that question, Yasmin, and sorry I left that question sort of bobbing out to sea for a long time. My average day is, well, average week, I work four days online and I work one day in the office. So today is my in office and I usually keep those appointments for children. So we work with children in the out-of-home care system under victim services or other parents or foster carers who I need to show them and connect with them around physical strategies that they can use with the young people or be able to process some trauma for themselves. But majority of my clients, you know, will live interstate.

I've had a couple overseas, which has been amazing. It's been a really good cultural experience as well to understand how mental health is viewed in southeastern Asian countries as well. So my average day will be spending a lot of time in my home office, either connecting with clients or supervisees and EMDR consultees as well. And you do provide supervision. support for people who are either accredited mental social workers or are going through the process of accreditation? Yes.

Yeah. So my supervisees vary at the moment and I love that because there's so much you can learn from supervisors and consultees as well. So on one end, I managed to keep some amazing supervisees who I first met when I was their field educator when they did their placement. So I was doing a bit of contract work for two unies in New South Wales. and in Victoria. So it's been so fulfilling to be able to see some supervisors who I saw when they're in social work degree and being able to support them during placement. And they've come

along for the ride with me since they've been employed as well. So I see new graduates and I see emerging social workers working within those case management roles. Through a therapeutic lens, I see some supervisors who are working towards their accreditation. and wanting to get into private practice or for their own organisational needs. And then I see some EMDR therapists who are looking to gain accreditation because as a consultant in Australia, to be able to advance through EMDR competencies. There's different stages and requirements as well to demonstrate your understanding and application of EMDR.

So a bit of a mixed bag, Asman, but I love it. Yeah. And do you still have an opportunity to provide field education to social work students? I haven't in a while actually and it's just been because of time constraints. I mean, if there was anything that I could change day to day, it would be being able to stop time. I'm sure a lot of people feel like that. You need Hermione's time to. Absolutely.

I mean, it was a bit selfish of her holding on to that herself. But, yeah, being able to do that was something. I really enjoyed getting the support through universities, but it was also a really challenging and interesting experience for me as well. I remember a few of my first supervisorses. I had to support through some really hard, some really challenging placements where ethics really came up for the students I was supporting it for the clients that they were seeing as well. So it was a really great lesson for myself in those supervisors around ethical practice. And that's not a reflection of the uni that was a reflection, I think, of how that organisation

that they did placement up was structured. And I think also we're so acutely aware as social workers ourselves of how a student's external pressures and their own situation will impact their placement experience. So, you know, I've had a social worker who just unfortunately couldn't make 100% use of the placement offered. She still was able to pass and still was able to do what she needed to do, but it also took a bit of me just identifying, look, there's so much going on for you. Let's just take back. You're not going to see quite as many patients. You're just going to have to, you know, give you some extra time to work on other things. It's really challenging. And you know yourself,

try to study and have a life at the same time. Yes. And how is that conversation for you as well, Yasmin because it's a tricky one, isn't it? Because on one hand, we want to support students and we have an obligation ourselves as social workers to support the next generation of social workers. But at the same time, we have this aspect of our role to be protective and to support a person in terms of what their capacity is at that time. And it's no reflection of their skills. It's purely, like you said, what have you got going on? at the moment and is this realistic because I had a great group supervision last night with some social workers around imposter syndrome and wow isn't that a topic that we need to talk

about more oh yeah yeah yeah that's a bit of a hell yeah isn't it yesman hell yes oh that's also a bit of a can we dedicate an entire podcast just to that oh I mean you'd have you'd have so many subscribers but you're right you're absolutely right we need to talk about it more yeah yeah And yes, it happens at every stage of your career. It can be the most experienced, confident social worker will find themselves for whatever reason in a situation where they're doubting their capacity. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. But I guess the conversation was one where I just had to be my students advocate. Because part of it was a systemic issue with the university. So that particular university, while they were doing their full-time placement, needed to be doing two subjects at the same time. So they were effectively studying part-time and doing a full-time placement. And having all this other stuff going on in her. She was exhausted.

And I gave that feedback to the university halfway through when we had that opportunity to say, this isn't sustainable. This is not fair. You're reducing her capacity to learn and engage in what should be a really good, learning environment. Absolutely.

Like working in a hospital rehab unit, that sub-acute experience as a student, so valuable. I mean, I was slightly biased because I loved working there. But I think, yeah, you just have to be really conscious of their needs, but also able to speak out against the system and just say, if nothing changes, I won't take another student from your university because it's not fair. I won't encourage this. Yeah, yeah. I mean, yes, if you could hear me, I would, you'd see I would just be, I don't know, cheering in the background here because it's important for us to push back against systems and their expectations.

Our job is, as field educators, is to protect the learning experience of our students. That should be our role to be a strong advocate and a nice way to try and look at that and how I explain to people and how I try to apply to myself is what, part of my nervous system, am I currently sitting at, am I on the brink of collapse because I'm not coping? Am I in a sympathetic sort of state where I'm hypervigilant and I can't get off my devices and I'm overworked or not prioritising or am I safe and connected where I can make really rational, sensible, grounding choices

because we flip through those stages on a a daily basis and that's who we are as humans. Our system's wired to do that for many reasons. So for any students who may be listening, never think that not being able to take something on is a reflection of your potential or your skill level. Have a look, take a step back and have a look as to whether the expectations are realistic because you're in a placement to learn. Yeah. And learning can only happen when we're safe and connected. And also I think with the popularity more recently of the Masters of Social Work qualifying degree. We do have so many people that are coming through the program who have such great lived experience, whether it's in social

work areas or in education or in psychology like yourself, where they can actually teach us so much. So being able to support the student to, again, not have that imposter syndrome, but to be confident and to be able to draw down on their own experience and their own wonderful ideas and what they can bring in terms of perspectives to a role, I think that's one of the most valuable things, for me, at least, of that field education experience. Absolutely, yeah.

I was about to say absolutely, very conscious how many times have said absolutely. We're so connecting on our opinions and thoughts about this. And I remember my second placement, because it didn't happen in my first placement. Sorry first placement people, but my second placement. A very well-established social worker who was there only a couple days a week. She had the opportunity to take me to an interagency meeting.

I got to see her advocacy in action. And that was great experience because she gave me a lot of courage to have faith in what we bring her social workers to the table with other allied health professionals and on the way back from the drive because it was in the next town over we had a lot of time to debrief. He turned to him and she said, you know, Amy, what was your thoughts about that? Was there anything that you thought I could have done differently or any questions you had? And I went, you're asking me my opinion? I just, in the sense of, oh, I've got so much to learn from you, but to have a student, to have your opinion valued,

it just gave me so much confidence to go, what I have to say might matter. Yeah, you're not quizzing me. You're genuinely asking my opinion. Yeah, yeah. And that was such a light, bold moment for myself as well, because as students, we have to be really mindful of power structures within the placements that we're in as well and how we navigate that. That's something that comes up often for me,

and I'm sure probably it comes up for you as well, in supervision. Yeah. And also, I remember in my first placement, my supervisor was very busy, had a million things to do. And it just so happened that there were a number of allied health staff on the ward who showed interest in me as a student and were happy to kind of say, hey, you're looking a bit lost for something to do. Would you like to come watch me do an assessment or do you want to chat about what's, it was my first exposure to an officer. occupational therapist and I love OTs for many reasons, but mostly because this occupational therapist took me under his wing and said, do you want to learn a bit more about what I do? So sometimes I think

we feel as though we have to constantly be watching a student or have a student doing just social work things. Whereas in settings like a hospital or in a community centre where you've got multiple people from different professional backgrounds, that's a really great opportunity to. for that student to just have a look and see how this system is working. Yes. Yes. And those relationships, I mean, find another degree. I'm sure there's many, but find another degree such as social work that relies just as heavily on relationships.

And those relationships with other professionals and other services, that's of service to your client. They're going to get a better service from you because you know what's outside of your scope of practice. So say for example, I don't do housing up my service because I do therapy. So having good relationships with a youth accommodation service who are able to support young people who can't live at home, that's a safety I can't provide in my role. If I didn't have relationships with those people in that service, I mean, my client's essentially missing out.

I read also while I was doing some gentle stalking, I just quietly. I'm here for it, Yasmin, I'm here for it and you're only here stalking. I mean, that's all that's. It's curiosity. You were also doing some work for the State Revenue Office and it's a program that I'd never heard of, but you're supporting working development orders. Yeah, yeah. That's so fascinating to me.

Yeah, so at our practice and if it wasn't for a colleague actually at Health who I still would make good friends with, her advocating in private practice that we should be work development sponsors as well. Usually it was very common for organizations such as NGOs or government to be able to apply. So essentially what a work development sponsor is is someone or something such as an organization that can recognize that people financially are at disadvantage for paying for their state revenue fines, whether it be restitution orders. So if someone's been charged with an offense or whether it be traffic infringements, whether it be fines related to any or all sorts of behaviour, they can actually engage in therapy, case management or community service and pay for their fines through

their actions and their engagement, which is really empowering for clients who are wanting to pay off their fines, but in this financial climate, and for many decades, if you had a choice between paying for your fines or to make rent or to buy food for your family. I'm pretty sure I know what I would be picking. It's a really great opportunity for people to be incentivised, to engage in therapy. And the most, I think, rewarding part of that was when I was working in a high school and I was working with young people who had fines for jumping trains. You know, when you start to unfold that and how that happened, they had to get somewhere, but they didn't have any money. Yeah. And they jump the train because that was their only mode of transportation in not

staying at a home that wasn't safe. And then to have, you know, a thousand dollars worth of fines attached to that, they're never going to be able to pay that off. So by being able to engage in mental health treatment, we're able to pay off a thousand dollars a month of their fines. And that is through them engaging in therapy. So that's been a really nice thing to be able to provide to our clients as well. Yeah. And it's such a beautiful, non-judgmental approach as well.

It seems like a much less punitive way of saying. We recognize that for whatever reason, you've done this thing that is attached to a fine. And we recognize that not only can you not pay for the fine, otherwise you would have probably, you know, bought a ticket in the first place, but the flow-on effect of having this, shame and guilt and even just that financial now I'm severely disadvantaged. There's a real

recognition in that which I love. I've never heard of that. Yeah. But it makes so much sense. It's just sometimes things make sense and you think, you know, that would be a logical way to handle a situation but it doesn't exist. So I'm really glad to hear that this exists. And you know, there's people out there that feel that they could take that on, whether it's in a case management role, whether it's in clients coming to your service and doing community service if you're set up for that or mental health treatment or counselling, whatever it is, I really encourage people to apply because what we're wanting to do is we're wanting to stop cycles. That's why we work in prevention services. And there are so many layers of that. Exactly what you touch with us as well,

Yasmin. There's shame, there's guilt, there's privilege, there's economic status. There are so many things attached to why people receive a fine that my focus when they walk through the door, it's not about you fine. I want to know about you as a person. What brought you here and how can we support you moving forward? I think that's a powerful question. Yeah. What's the paperwork like, I guess, is my only other question around that. How do you demonstrate that people are working towards something without making it feel as though they have to meet certain targets. Yep, yeah. So we fill out an application form, so that's just getting points of identification. If they're on a Centrelink payment, sort of just run-of-the-mail questions, address, find reference number.

So I log onto a portal and I put that application in and then I set a target for how many sessions that we would agree to per month of therapy. And it's paid on pro rata. or the incentive is sort of placed into the system on pro rata. So say, for example, I might have a discussion with a client of, let's aim to see each other three times a month, just randomly picking that number. And the client makes the four three sessions a month. I just get them to sign each time that they've come as proof, and then they'll be able to have the $4,000 taken off their fine.

So, for example, they come twice a month, but can't make it the third or don't show up. then the third of the $1,000 is still paid. So there's still some incentive for them to come. Okay. And it's significantly less prescriptive than it could be, I guess, because you're the one with them setting that goal of this many times a month we're going to be able to need up. Yeah, yeah.

And there's nothing better than being able to print off the balance of what they first had with state revenue and then what the balance is remaining in the majority of the time at zero. And just the relief of them not having to pay that fine and being able to focus their capacity and their energy on something more meaningful is just huge. Yeah. I love that that exists for people in that therapeutic role. And look, Yasmin, one of the pathways of that is making referrals as well. So if you're able to make a referral for a client and they engage somewhere else or, you know, equally, just say if I have been able to make a referral. I was seeing a client and said, you need to go and see Yasmin.

I could tick off still that they're able to pay off that fine as a secondary referral. So lots of ways to be creative in a system that might appear black and white at first, but there's ways to be able to make it work for the client. Yeah. What would you say is the hardest thing, though, about the work you're doing?

Oh, the hardest thing. The hardest thing is probably, And this is a systemic and this is a macro level challenge is that the supply and demand of victim services therapists is nowhere near equal. So at the moment, you know, my colleagues and I have come to being on Facebook groups. Are there any victim services counsellors out there who are working with telehealth? Please let us know so we can refer the people who keep coming to our service wanting to see someone. So we can link them in with a good therapist or is there anyone out there who's doing EMDR because a client has specifically come to see the house because they're wanting EMDR.

I think the challenge is how do we create more good therapists for people in need in a service that's subsidising that. So that's probably the hardest thing. In terms of the other stuff, I love working with my clients. I love working with consult teams. Yes, the days can be exhausting as any self-employed business is and that owner so I probably have to wear. I need to learn to shut off when I do.

Anyone listening to me? Yep, I'm trying to work on that. Don't worry. But it really is a privilege, especially having the time and the resources to work with someone in a longer term. These people are allowing you into their lives. That's pretty special.

Yeah. How do you find that balance as a business owner, as a mum, as someone who's always trying to improve the supports that they can provide? What support do you need? Yasman, you're hitting my Achilles heel right now. So what I've focused on is actually reassessing my capacity to take more clients on. I am a pretty soft hand. So if people tell me their stories, I used to say yes. I used to make room.

Whether that be sacrificing time with my family or, you know, cramming people in, I sought a lot of supervision around this. That good quality therapy means that all of me, 100% of me, has to show up. Not the 70% that's present in the room and the other 30% wondering what I'm going to be cooking for dinner tonight and how am I going to go and get my daughter before. osh closes, which I think is probably every parent's juggle as well, but by pulling back on my clinical load, sort of balancing it out with other things and other projects that excite me. So we're doing live demonstrations at the moment of EMDR in a workshop each month.

So that's called EMDR and a fishbow. So people trained in EMDR can come along and see Michelle and I work with a volunteer. So Michelle's my colleague as well, who's also an approach. and mental health social worker and she is one of the partners to see the house. So each month will alternate with having a therapist or professional turn up and say, yep, this is what I want to work on today. So we don't have any prior knowledge and we just go with it. So we demonstrate what a therapeutic session would be because it's very authentic as well, using EMDR, using parts work, using all the modalities that we use in a session. And then once we close,

there's an opportunity for other therapists to then come back to the whole group and ask the participant what that was like for them and then quiz us around why we use the modalities that we used and the techniques. That's such an interesting combination of training and supervision. Yes, yeah. And, you know, there is so much richness in being able to banter with other therapists around their ideas, their creativity and something that I've learned along the way, especially doing this because you're in a very vulnerable place. You're having other experts, other really skilled therapists watching you work in real time. You think, you know, what have I stuffed this up? What that's taught me is to lean into courage showing up for our clients.

and if there's anything that our workshops can lend people, it's their encouraging intention to know where they need to go with clients. And really excitingly enough, that's something that Michelle and I develop in training for later in the year. Yeah, so that's what we've got on at the moment. There's a million other ideas buzzing around in my head, but I've learnt with my capacity to niche down, focus on what I want to do well and what I'm passionate about

and give 100% to that rather than. 20% to all my other projects. So quality of a quantity. Yes, which I'm sure a lot of other people as well who may be neuro-spicy or really excitable or overachievers. Shout out to all of you because I'm hoping you know exactly what I mean. When a good idea pops along, seize the day. Yeah.

It was interesting. My husband asked me the other day whether there's any part of my work that I could do at a lesser capacity. He's like, I know that you are such a perfectionist and you want to work at 100% and do the best work you can, but you don't have to. Like, you're overachieving. Is there anything you could cut back on in terms of quality? And I said, not really.

Oh, yes, I hope you paid him for that supervision. That was a golden nugget. I said, I get where you're coming from, but I myself would not be happy or satisfied with my work unless I was working. at that capacity. So I guess that's something I need to work on, but it was an interesting observation of you can see, you can see that from the outside. Okay. Whoops. And I completely know what you mean. We must have the same cut of the same fabric husband, because mine always keeps me in check, which is I love, but it's annoying at the time. One of the posts that I was working on for my social media was around understanding imposter syndrome. And I just do little snippets. So it's easy,

digestible and people can have a flick through, but some of the things that popped up for imposter syndrome is perfectionism, is people pleasing, is procrastination. And when we start to look at those patterns, it's a bit of a light bulb moment to go, oh, does perfection exist? And if I am perfect all the time, where can I go from that? Can I actually grow? So that was a moment for me to go, oh, Amy's all about. Yeah. No, I love that. Yeah. It sounds as though you've also got some great people, obviously your husband, but other people in your life. You've got some gorgeous doggos that can take you out of that space and give you something else to focus on for a little bit, which would be really helpful. Yes. And, you know, getting outside, reading at home,

watching TV at home, being in my own bubble sort of person. So learning to say no, but also pushing myself to enjoy being outside, getting some light, going back to nature, are putting settings on my phone where it just says sleep time, so all my notifications are silent. That took a really big struggle of control for me, because going back to that sympathetic nervous state, I was constantly hypervigilant. I've got to check things, got to be on top of things. So that's been a really teachable moment for me to step back and say there is nothing that is going to be an emergency that can't wait until in the morning during my work hours. work in progress under construction but still work on it.

What changes do you think you've seen over time in the field that you're working in? You've already mentioned, for instance, the social media contacts to find resources for clients and there are ways that you're working that provide increased access to support for people who can't afford maybe more of a traditional therapy. Yes. What else have you seen and where would you like? get to go. The biggest change I've seen is the medium in which we provide therapy over, so telehealth. That's been a big one because show me a person that doesn't have access to a smartphone.

People being comfortable in their own space has been so helpful. And I've actually had a couple of clients that have said to me, if we were seeing each other in person, I don't know if I'd be as open because there is a protection for them in knowing. They won't see them. They won't see them. in real life or if they do they get to choose that if they want to the ways in which i'm really passionate about things changing in the future is i'd love to see more people embracing body movement and the importance of semantic work when working with people but that's something that my poor supervisees will always have me being on about and thank you guys for all your patience but in the wise words of Bessel van der Kolk, if people are aware of him, he's a leading expert

of trauma and psychiatrist and did a lot of founding studies with those returning from Vietnam Walt. And he read a fantastic book called The Body Keeps the School. And trigger warning, because it's not suitable for clients, it really delves into a lot of the studies that he saw. Bruce Perry is another fantastic person to link him with his book, What Happened to You? I think it's co-authored with Oprah Winfrey. So it's a very easy, digestible walk around. It's a very interview style around research and connection and seeing people for their whole experience, rather than pathologising it. What I'd love to see is how do we work with people in the room in their bodies, because their bodies are the primary force that experience, what has

happened to them. Why do we only focus on people's brains? Why do we only focus on people's minds? Why do we only focus on people's minds. Yeah. Are there any other resources that you would recommend for people? I think Bessel van der Kolk and Bruce Perry's work are foundational. I think there was also, I remember hearing about an interview with Oprah and Bruce Perry, so I'll see if I can track that down and put that in the show notes. Yeah.

But for anything else that you'd like to shout out for people if they wanted to do their own reading or viewing or listening. Oh, husband. How long have you got? No. And there's a lesson, I'm just looking at my bookcase, actually, but the ballmarte is absolutely,

he has to stick with people are familiar with him. So he's a medical doctor over in the States, but his own generational story of being involved in World War II is an infant and what that attachment did for him and his own relationship with his children before he understood the power of relationships and the effect that trauma has on the body. He does great clips, great talks.

If anyone's a fan of Tim Ferriss, he's been on his podcast. He's actually been on Joe Rogan. If people listen to Joe Rogan, there's so many accessible clips that the ballmarte is on. There's also a great book by Michael Baldwin and Deborah Korn. So this book's called Every Memory Deserves Respect, E&DR, Proven Trauma Therapies, and the Power to heal. That's a great book that you can just have in the waiting room, you can show up your clients, you can read it yourself.

It talks about how each memory needs to be approached with compassion, with understanding, and that each memory is just representative of our experience. So there's lots of beautiful pictures in that. It's really short snippets. They're probably my go-toes that I'd say for anyone just interested in my passion around semantic work. And how do we honour that? No, that's fantastic. I'll grab all of those resources.

And maybe also the website for Siva House, if people want to get a bit more of an understanding of the areas that you work and also your colleagues. Yeah, for sure. So our website at Siva House is www. svea House.com.com. So you'll see a bit about our mantra, the cohorts that we work with, each therapist bio.

Got a few great resources on there as well. And you'll find our workshops on there listed. And my consulting business is Bridgeback, E&R and Consulting. So that's www. Bridgeback Consulting.com. And there you will not find a photo of me because I am photo shy. I promise I exist. I'm not a catfish, but I have a bookable system on there as well for anyone seeking

supervision or EMDR consultation. So I do both group and individual, but hey, if anyone wants to say hello, if you want to drop me a line or want to ask me about any of the resources I mentioned, please reach out. I love hearing from people. And I can do that in the safety of comfort of my own home. So if anyone wants to reach out, let's chat. Amazing. And you also have recorded a podcast recently you were saying about your EMDR therapy. Yeah. So that was around EMDR and a fishbowl. So that was the workshop where we do a live demonstration. So both my colleague, Michelle Bowes and I were on a recent episode of that. And that was Understanding EMDR an Australian podcast by Tracy Lynch. Here's a Newcastle gal. So if anyone's interested in hearing any of

those, there's some fantastic speakers. Check it out. It's really nice to support more Australian health professionals in the space. Absolutely. Yeah. You've had experience in quite a number of social work areas at this point is there anything that you haven't had the opportunity to try or anything you really want to maybe prioritize next in your career awesome that's a great question anyone would feature a podcast interviewer or something or just a social worker with a background and interrogating people let's unpack that um at the moment i mean there's so many things i want to do all but my break system is a lot of bit better developed these days.

So the thing that I'm focused on at the moment is how do we change the landscape of that initial problem that you're able to identify of how do we make more good therapy accessible? And the only conclusion I've come to is creating a community of therapists who can lean into good support, that courage and intuition that we spoke about before and having a support system around them. So my next focus with my co-worker is developing training and consultation and support so that people can be the therapist that they want to be and they dream of being or already are and having a community to support them and have their back as well. That sounds wonderful. Before we finish up, is there anything that we perhaps haven't touched

on that you wanted to talk about about your experience or the work that you do? floor is yours. No, oh, look, the only thing I have to add, Jasmine, is thank you for the work that you do. And I don't want that to sound insincere or gimmicky or cliche, but without understanding the diversity of social work, I think it's social works loss to not have such a very poor people who want to work in different areas.

You know, I joke with colleagues all the time. If I didn't do complex trauma, trauma and I mean you know really complex stuff I wouldn't be comfortable in the other settings that's what I like other areas that people provide therapy or work in I couldn't do it and if we all wanted to do the same thing then people would be missing out on such a multi-dimensional service and profession so 100% yeah thank you to everyone else who has found their niche in their passion and also has taken the time to share that experience in that passion because yeah So many things that I would never see myself doing,

but they're so incredibly driven to provide that support and could not see themselves doing anything else. I'm like, that's great. Yes. That's something that I need you to do because I cannot. Absolutely. Yeah. And, you know, with all the such varied and experienced

and amazing guests that you've had on your podcast as well, for anyone who's thinking about social work, it's never going to be a profession that's going to expire. There are so many ways that you can change direction, that you can utilise your skills in social work, the different cohorts of populations you can work with. What drew me to social work was the social justice aspect, but I did never want to stop learning.

Will I be in private therapy for the rest of my career? I hope so, but I don't know. And that's the same with, I think, every other social worker. You never know. your journey is going to take you. Yeah. It's definitely not a field where chat GPT can take over. I don't think I'm going to end up.

I feel safe from AI. Yes. Yeah, yeah. We don't need artificial. We get plenty of the real stuff. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so, I mean, if you look at COVID, for instance, I felt for so many, so many services, so many businesses that bore the brunt of that.

When you look at mental health, we were booming. we're an end of being, it wasn't at risk of being shut down. And, you know, that's so important with environmental factors, societal factors, there needs to be a service to be able to address those issues and fight for how people are treated and how we operate in systems supporting that. So thank you to all the social workers out there for doing the work that you do because I'm very proud to be a social worker. Yeah.

I've loved hearing about your real strong social justice for. focus from very early on and your focus on early intervention and thinking, well, yes, I'm able to do some of this back end stuff, but what if I can get to people a bit earlier and help make a difference on that end? And you've spoken about the importance of networking and holding on to support its people in your professional life and the impact that that has had on the opportunities that you've then had to create this consulting business and Siva House. the diversity of your work, which has given you more energy to sort of spread yourself thinly while still keeping the work really focused.

It kind of has provided an opportunity for you to support people with a variety of ages and concerns, which has kept it fresh and exciting. And you're really mindful of power dynamics and structures and working within systems and supporting people who have experienced trauma and the flow-on effects of how that impacts on someone's capacity to access services. So I think that's really important, as well as your continued learning and growth and professional development and the reflective focus that social work has. So much of that growth happens from not working in silo,

from building on other people's experience, and just reflecting on your practice and what you're able to do, while also being conscious of your own needs. So making room for yourself as well as others within all that so that you can continue to provide the best service to these people that you support. Oh, Yasmin, look, I'll go back to saying anyone would think you're a podcast host or something being up there.

But I'm just, you know, if I was a GIF, sorry for all the millennials out there, if I was a GIF, I'd just probably be someone waving in the background saying, yes. that's what we do, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, it is. That's, yeah, social work in a nutshell, EMDR and a fishbowl. We definitely are doing a lot of great work, and I love opportunities like this where I get to talk to people about what they're doing

and why they do it and how it gives them energy and motivation to keep working forward because it's not easy. It's hard work. But we have that drive and that training. and that capacity to be able to say, well, yeah, it's hard, but we wouldn't be interested in doing it if it won't. So here is how we can make a difference in this world. Yeah. Yeah. So thank you for everything that you do. Thank you for taking the time and being so generous and coming on today and chatting with me and sharing a bit more about your journey. And,

yeah, I really hope that people will reach out and want to have a chat with you about how they might get into something similar or just even, you know, pick your brain about something or even come along to some of your training sessions and, yeah, get to know a little bit more about this area. Oh, thank you. And thank you for having me on and again sharing the spotlight on those stories. That's a bit of a pun there, isn't it? That's it.

That's what it's helpful. But, yeah, looking forward to seeing your growth as well, Yasmin. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. No problem. Thanks for joining me this week. If you'd like to continue this discussion or ask anything of either myself or Amy, please visit my anchor page at anchor.fm slash social work spotlight.

You can find me on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter, or you can email SW Spotlight Podcast at gmail.com. I'd love to hear from you. Please also let me know if there is a particular topic you'd like discussed, or if you or another person you know would like to be featured on the show. Next episode's guest is Kelly, a social worker with comprehensive working experience with Centrelink and Services Australia, who has recently entered private practice to assist clients with their healing and recovery journey from trauma.

I release a new episode every two weeks. Please subscribe to my podcast so you'll notify when this next episode is available. See you next time.