Social Work Spotlight - Episode 9: Sarah

Episode Date: August 7, 2020

In this episode, Sarah and I discuss her experience in case management, project coordination, community engagement, policy, advocacy and management roles, within the migrant and settlement services sector. Her work has included supporting survivors of human trafficking and slavery, refugees, people seeking asylum, and individuals with complex mental health needs. Sarah also teaches undergraduate and post-graduate Social Work university students, focusing on social justice, human rights and cross-cultural social work. She has studied and worked both domestically and internationally, and has a particular interest in the intersection between social work, mental health, and forced migration. Sarah won the "Caseworker of the Year" award within the Australian Migrant and Settlement Awards in 2014 and was also selected as a Top Three Finalist in the area of Migration for the European Development Days Future Leaders Program in 2015.Links to resources mentioned in this week’s episode:* Medevac Bill - https://www.asrc.org.au/medevac_faq/* United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime - https://www.unodc.org/* National Refugee-Led Advisory and Advocacy Group (NRAAG) - https://www.nraag-australia.org* Refugee Council of Australia - https://www.refugeecouncil.org.au* Vicarious Trauma (research report prepared for Centacare) - https://centacare.org.au/wp-content/uploads/corporate/VicariousTraumaReport.pdf* Jesuit Refugee Service - http://www.jrs.org.au* Asylum Seeker Centre - https://asylumseekerscentre.org.au* House of Welcome - https://www.stfrancis.org.au/house-of-welcome* Refugee Advice and Casework Service (RACS) - https://www.racs.org.au* STARTTS - https://www.startts.org.au* Working with Refugees - A guide for Social Workers - https://www.startts.org.au/media/Resource-Working-with-Refugees-Social-Worker-Guide.pdf* AASW Scope of Social Work Practice with Refugees and Asylum Seekers - https://www.aasw.asn.au/document/item/8529* Australian Department of Home Affairs 2018-19 Annual Report - https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/reports-and-pubs/Annualreports/home-affairs-annual-report-2018-19.pdf*  Refugee Advice & Casework Service - https://www.racs.org.au/This episode's transcript can be viewed here:https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iIgfrexR7pcbPjBHUnhsFY3j-b0VVCmp/view?usp=sharingThanks to Kevin Macleod of incompetech.com for our theme music.

Hi and welcome to Social Work Spotlight where I showcase different areas of the profession each episode. I'm your host, Yasmeen McKee Wright, and today's guest is Sarah. Sarah has worked in case management, project coordination, community engagement, policy, advocacy and management roles within the migrant and settlement services sector for the last 10 years. Her work has included supporting survivors of human trafficking and slavery, refugees, people seeking asylum, and individuals, and individuals, with complex mental health needs. Sarah also teaches undergraduate and postgraduate social work university students, focusing on social justice, human rights and cross-cultural social work. She has studied and worked both domestically and internationally

and has a particular interest in the intersection between social work, mental health and forced migration. Sarah won the Caseworker of the Year award within the Australian Migrant and Settlement Awards in 2014, 2014 and was also selected as a top three finalist in the area of migration for the European Development Days Future Leaders Program in 2015. So I finished my social work degree in 2011. I guess in a way you could say that it's unsurprising I ended up doing what I did. I was raised in a family where my father was a clinical psychologist and my mum worked in mental health. So very much spent lots of time around the dinner table talking about human rights and social justice and dignity and respect and privilege and ideas of privilege and, you know, being grateful for the life that I have.

And I think that really set a baseline for my sense of identity and who I am. And from there, I started travelling and that really exposed me, I suppose, more broadly to how lucky I was with the opportunity. that I had and just the diversity of experiences that different people have. And I originally wanted to be a psychologist. That was my plan originally. But I started off at university doing social work. And I always had the intention of moving across into psychology. And in my first semester of social work, I really loved the holistic approach that social

work had. I loved the fact that it saw individuals at the centre of all the different interconnecting systems, you know, the, our community and socioeconomic status and politics and family and culture and all the different systems at play can impact on an individual. And I really found that holistic approach quite powerful. And so I decided to stay and continue on with social work. was there a point at which you can remember in your childhood then having had some really robust conversations around the dinner table that you thought, I actually get what they're talking about now? I think there's an extra level of maturity for some of those concepts.

And I'm wondering at what point it really clicked for you that that's what they do and therefore this is why I'm interested in it. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. There's no real particular point in my life where it really clicked, I would say. It seemed to be in quite a natural progression. I did grow up very much in the environment of my dad's psychology practice. And so interacting with the people that were seeking support from him and his colleagues at the time. And I think that really normalized people's journeys and, you know, the ups and downs of humanity and life. And that it's okay to struggle at times.

it's okay to go through difficult times. It really highlighted people's resilience. And I think it was just a natural progression and a journey rather than something in particular that made me go, aha, this is what I want to do. What do you think then has led you to this point in your career? Yeah, good point. For me, when I started studying social work,

I originally wanted to go into mental health and I'd been working in the mental health sector whilst I'd been studying. And a little bit prior actually as well, but in more of an administrative role. My dream job out of my social work degree was actually to go into work in an acute mental health service. That's what I wanted to do.

And then over time as I was studying, I developed a real love for anthropology and sociology and cultural studies. And I really started to form an interest in cultural perceptions of mental health and how mental health is perceived and how trauma is perceived in different cultures and people from different backgrounds. I remember that coupled with some of the travelling and some of the experiences that I'd had

when I was travelling really made me interested in that topic of cultural perceptions of mental health and within a human rights framework through a human rights lens. I suppose from there I did my first social work placement in victim services. Victims' Compensation, so it was very much, it exposed me to the particular challenges that people face when they've been a victim or survivor, depending on your choice of language, of violent crime. And that coupled with my interest in cultural perceptions of mental health, I developed a really strong interest in force migration. And it was always a topic area that I was very interested in at university and in my learning. and I became very passionate about modern-day slavery or human trafficking. So I started volunteering for an organisation,

and then eventually I was lucky enough to have my final social work placement in a safe house for people who had experienced human trafficking and slavery and slavery-like practices, including things like forced marriage, servile marriage or slave-like marriage. And that was really the starting point, I guess, for my, work that I started to do in force migration more broadly. Yeah. And then you continued with more research. Yeah. So I started off in direct service provision. So I always, as a student, as a social

work student, always saw myself as someone who, I suppose, would be in direct service provision, either in, you know, a more counselling role or a case management role or, you know, program management managing a service. And I did do that. I did do that probably for the first eight years or so of my social work career. And then over time, I started to become acutely aware of how structural barriers and systemic barriers really significantly impact on the people that I was supporting as a case manager and ended up managing for a period of time a safe house as well. and I got really frustrated by that. And when I was managing the safe house,

I had the opportunity to, I suppose, dabble in more policy and advocacy related work and some research as well. And that led me down a pathway of wanting to reevaluate where I saw myself as a social worker and that I really did want to try and tackle some of those broader systemic issues on a macro level through, you know, public policy work and advocacy and lobbying and research and so forth. And so for the last, for I would say, three to four

years now, I've been in more project work, project coordination, research and policy and advocacy work. And I'm really enjoying that because it allows me to channel some of those frustrations that I had as a social worker working directly with communities into the advocacy that I'm doing and hopefully see some changes, which isn't always easy in force migration. But yeah. Can you tell me about some of the projects you've worked on overseas? Yeah, sure. So one of the projects that I was lucky enough to be a part of was over in Kenya. I worked for quite a large international non-government organisation at that time, and they were looking at developing regional solutions for people who are experiencing human trafficking in the Kenya West area.

And whilst obviously you can't take one context, lift it up and put it into a completely different environment, they wanted to invite me over there to, one, develop networks and, you know, learn a little bit more, about what that organisation was doing in the Australian context. But also they wanted to hear the approaches we were taking and what things may or may not be compatible. And so I was able to assist them as they developed or produced a situational analysis of what the context was there. And so we went to a range of different parts of Kenya

and did community consultation, ran focus groups, spoke to people in the community to better understand what their experiences were. It was really interesting from a gender perspective because the male leaders in the community saw one type of human trafficking as a large issue, whereas when you spoke to the women, they saw a totally different types of human trafficking as a concern for them and that they felt they were at risk of. So from a gender perspective, that was very interesting. Then alongside a number of the staff in that organisation who were based in Kenya,

we used some of that information that was gathered and we delivered some training to leaders in that organisation and we work closely with the UNODC as well and some of the other key not-for-profit organisations in Kenya to kind of develop a plan. And so I was only there for a short period of time, but I was. was able to sort of make my key recommendations and then continue on that relationship when I returned to Australia. Do you think it was particularly difficult from a cultural perspective to be received as a social worker in that environment? Do you think they had a good understanding of what a social worker is and what your role or what your impact could have? Definitely social work

exists as a profession in that country. It's slightly different, you know, in terms of some of the finer details around the way the education is, I suppose, established and the amount of years maybe at university and so forth. But social work very much is alive and well and it's taking place in Kenya. I think that I was acutely aware of being a Caucasian woman from a Western country coming in for a matter of, you know, X amount of weeks and really just feeling a little bit uncomfortable about standing in the front of a room talking to people about an issue in their country when I had not lived in that country and I had not really experienced what it was like to be a part of that community. And so I was very much led and guided by my colleagues there

on the ground and it was as much of a learning experience for me as it was for them, I think. And I guess it was really about the sharing of ideas and sharing of information and building stronger networks across the organisation internationally and being able to support them with some of the research that they needed. I wasn't there as a leader per se. I was there to sort of be consulted with and to support their pre-existing work that they were already doing. So it sounds like everyone had a very clear role and you would have had to work very closely as a team in order to share those ideas and skills and not seem as though you were stepping on anyone else's territory. Very much so, very much so, yeah.

And what's your current role? What does that look like? What's a typical day for you if you do have a typical day? Yeah, sure. So, I mean, one of the things that I love about social work is there's just so many different roles and things that you can do and, you know, it's wonderful and there's definitely that diversity in my role. So my role currently is, I'm a policy and advocacy advisor for a large non-government organisation in their social justice team. And my role is to essentially be the policy lead on anything related to mental health and well-being and refugees and people seeking asylum for the organisation. And so in terms of day-to-day work, and what that looks like. It can be anything from organizing events to contributing to some of our campaigns and mobilising community to writing submissions or doing research to, you know,

meeting with politicians and trying to advocate on issues that people feel very strongly about. Obviously, community consultation is core to what we do and meeting with and being guided by people with lived experience. That's crucial to the work that I do. and community leaders as well. But it really does vary in terms of the day-to-day thing. And obviously during the time we're in now with coronavirus, it's been quite reactive as well as policies are changing on a day-to-day basis. And access and support for people is changing on a day-to-day basis.

So it really does require you to work closely with other stakeholders and be creative and proactive and take initiative and be flexible, I suppose. Yeah. And how has the restrictions with coronavirus impacted on your work at the moment? I'd say that the largest thing that, I mean, well, there's two areas, I suppose. The government has just recently announced quite a significant amount of investment into mental health, into their mental health package, which is really, really fantastic to see. So from that perspective, that was wonderful. And there has been a few attempts by the government to address the needs of people who are on temporary visas.

But what's been taking up a lot of my time recently is talking to people and engaging with stakeholders around the fact that there is a large percentage of our population who are falling through the cracks, which is people seeking asylum and other people on temporary visas. And so I've been working quite closely with some of the larger organisations such as Refugee Council of Australia. They're running a campaign at the moment called Nobody Left Behind. So our organisation and a number of, I think over 180 organisations have come together to try and advocate for essentially that all people living in the Australian community deserve a right to be safe and well, during this health crisis. So that's been something that we've been advocating quite strongly on. The organisation I work for is a faith-based organisation. So there's also been quite a lot of work being done across the faith-based organisations to respond to this as well because a lot of people are, as unfortunately, we're seeing more broadly in the Australian community, a lot of people are losing

their jobs, a lot of people are losing their income. And as a result, people are unable to you know, feed their families and pay their rent and pay their utility bills. But then when you add on top of that, that people on temporary visas and people seeking asylum don't actually have a financial safety net. They're not eligible for Centrelink. And a percentage of them don't have Medicare either. And what does that mean in terms of, one, their health rights, but two, their willingness to come forward if they are unwell.

And, you know, is there some sort of a resurgence? to coming forward and seeking support if they do become unwell because they don't have Medicare. And so there's been a lot of advocacy done on that at this point in time. There has been an announcement from the Australian government to support international students, which is obviously very welcomed, but there's still a lot of people who are being left behind. And as a social worker, when we're thinking about equity and we're thinking about human rights and we're thinking about treating people with dignity and respect. During a health crisis, every person living in Australia deserves the right to be safe

and to have access to healthcare and to stay well. And we've seen in other countries around the world where migrant populations have been neglected that that has actually contributed to an increase in the spread of coronavirus. So that's been keeping me very busy. Yeah, sounds like it. It's been a long time since I've worked with multicultural groups and refugees. groups and I know that Australia guides its intake based on international events and turbulence overseas but I'm wondering at the moment what kind of themes or trends or which

vulnerable groups is the Australian government prioritising. Oh that's a very good question. Well I can tell you that definitely people seeking asylum are kind of at the bottom of the list. I think that the Australian government is attempting to, and probably state government as well, there's been some conversations with state government as well, attempting to provide better support solutions for people on temporary visas, for women or men and children on temporary visas who are experiencing domestic or family violence. There are still a number of barriers for people who have experienced domestic and family violence who are on temporary visas such as access to accommodation, even crisis and transitional accommodation, technically they're eligible for,

but it's not an easy process for them to actually gain access to that because of their visa status and lack of income often. But I do think there's probably a greater sense of empathy for people who have experienced domestic and family violence who are on temporary visas, Greatest sense of empathy from the government. But also I think that more than anything, and probably even more so now after coronavirus because of the economic impacts, we're going to see that people who can fill skill shortages

are going to be prioritised, I suppose, to boost the economy. And I mean, that's always been the case. It's about, you know, people who can boost the economy and can contribute to a better Australia, I suppose. That's always been a big priority for any federal government, and that's understandable from an economic perspective. But it very much is, and international students,

I think that, you know, we're seeing now the government trying to be creative in the ways that it, you know, they're looking at pathways for international students to be able to return to Australia and, you know, quarantine programs and, you know, what's the best way to do that? Because, again, the international students are so important to the Australian economy. So I do think a lot of the priorities are driven economically and less so people who are in vulnerable populations. I do think that there is a level of empathy as well for people who have experienced modern day slavery

over people seeking asylum. I think the, yeah, people who've experienced human trafficking or forced marriage or anything that's considered a slave-like related crime, I suppose. Perhaps they evoke a greater sense of empathy from the government as well. That's just my opinion. I could be wrong with that.

That's just from my experience. What I've seen is that there is funnally a divide between people who've experienced modern-day slavery and people seeking asylum, even though they're often both experiencing persecution, but just in different ways. And people who don't fit the criteria of the anti-slavery legislation that we have here in Australia often end up having to turn to applying for protection visas if they don't meet the criteria.

And so they end up being people seeking asylum. So it's funny how if people don't fit, the mould of what the legislation says that they have to be or they don't engage with law enforcement, that they then do fall through the cracks and they are then pushed aside. And they really, really struggle because they have to apply for asylum. And that's not an easy process. And it's a long process, very prolonged process. Yeah.

I would expect working for an NGO, you'd have some, or at least more capacity to be outspoken than you would, if you were working for a government department. How do you balance funding priorities with your need to advocate? So it's interesting because I worked for about five years for a faith-based non-government organisation and we actually received no government funding at all. It was all based off funding through donations and grants and corporate donors. and so forth. And whilst that came with its challenges, I actually really loved it because it meant that we could be truly independent in the way that we, and that was in a direct service provision

related role. I was managing a safe house at that time and prior to that was a case manager there. And it was brilliant in that we were able to, when it came to eligibility criteria or the amount of time that someone required support, we had that flexibility. I guess both, in that organization and the organization that I work for now, being another faith-based non-government organization, there's another added layer to it, which is ensuring that when you're doing your advocacy, you're also aligning with the values of that faith-based organization.

And sometimes there can be conflicts with that when it comes to what takes priority for the faith-based organization. And that's understandable. That's fine. Every organisation has values and, you know, principles that they align themselves with, as does social work. So I actually had a break from working in the NGO sector and worked for government for about a year. Just to, you know, give it a whirl and see how I found it.

And I really struggled. I really, really struggled. I could see the value and the importance, obviously, of the role of social work in a government agency. but I really struggled with not being able to advocate strongly on particular issues. And I sometimes struggled with feeling like my work felt tokenistic in government, which it wasn't, but it felt very different to working in a non-government organization where you could speak louder about issues that you cared about.

And so upon returning back to the NGO sector, about a year and a half, ago now. I've realized that NGO land is very much what fits best with me and my values and my beliefs and, you know, working very much from a human rights framework in the work that I do, whether it be direct service provision or policy and advocacy. And I'm grateful in that in the role I'm in now, I work for an organisation under a CEO who isn't afraid to, to use its voice. And I think that sometimes working for a faith-based organisation who does have very strong values around social justice or integrity and dignity and respect, which cross over very, very nicely with the AASW's Code of Ethics and Social Work values and principles,

it almost can be used as a means to justify being louder about and, you know, advocating louder for the issues that you really care about. And so I haven't found it too difficult raising my voice in the work that I do, working in the NGO sector. But I think that that's partially because the role that I did for five years with the other organisation and this role have both not been heavily funded by government and have not required me to report back to government on the work that we're doing in such an intense way. They've been unable to dictate the rules and ways that we go about our work, which I'm very grateful for.

Yeah. So it sounds like in the NGO settings, you've felt a bit more of an immediate or maybe an obvious impact for the population that you're supporting, and perhaps the role direction can be more easily influenced in the NGO. So you've developed all this great data and information on the people that you're supporting and you can feed that back more easily and say this is the direction that the program or the project should be taking. Definitely. Yeah. I think that is one of the key benefits of working for a non-government

organisation. And some people, you know, they're clever and they're smart and they're able to kind of make it work within the government sector. I wasn't able to do that myself in the role that I was in. But that's not to say that the role of social work is very important in government organizations as well in a variety of different ways. But I find that there is a little bit more flexibility in terms of, and perhaps it's because I work in quite a political area as well, being forced migration. I think that you kind of need to work for an organisation that's a bit gutsy, a bit, you know, who's willing to take a risk and has strong values. underpinning why they're willing to take that risk. And that often does come when working for, particularly I found when working for a faith-based NGO, those values can be even stronger, I suppose, because they're coming from a position of faith. And that seems to work.

The gutsiest or most risk-taking people that I've met in the NGO sector have all worked for faith-based NGOs. So that's been an interesting observation for me to see. for sure. What do you love most about what you do? I think it probably goes back to being able to tackle those issues on a broader macro level, those issues that I felt like often as a social worker in case management or direct service provision felt like I was banging my head against a brick wall and I felt like I wasn't getting anywhere. Feeling like I'm able to allocate the time to have conversations with people and develop innovative ideas and solutions and actually have the time to pursue those on a broader level. Because when you're a social worker working on the ground in a grassroots

organisation, you know, as a case manager and community development or whatever it might be, you have to be very reactive and you don't have the time necessarily to sit down and plan and to do some of these other things and tackle these issues on a broader macro level. But one of the greatest challenges that I faced when I was working as a case manager was the systemic barriers that were impacting people's lives, the fact that someone got diagnosed with cancer,

but they didn't have Medicare rights. And without access to proper healthcare, what were they going to do? And they couldn't return to their country of origin. you know, just some really, really horrible systemic barriers that stripped people of their fundamental basic human rights. So feeling like I can try and tackle those on a broader macro level is probably the thing I love most about my job.

And also I think it can be hard in the forced migration sector because it's highly political and often you feel like you're coming up against a brick wall a lot of the time. But I also think that within that sector, we have some of the most inspiring, brilliant, creative, innovative minds, real change makers, people who are so passionate about what they do that they don't care what the consequences are going to be. And that's really powerful and really reinvigorating when you're working in what can be sometimes quite a challenging space. and the resilience that people have, particularly, I suppose, another thing that I love about my job is just how much the community and people with lived experience are leading the work that's being done. You know, there's some incredible initiatives. There's a group called NRAA-A-G, which stands for, let me remind myself, National Refugee-led Advisory and Advocacy Group.

refugee-led entity that basically creates a space for people who are former refugees or have former refugee backgrounds to lead and basically take the lead in key decision-making environments. And they're incredible. So being able to work in an environment like that where you have these incredibly smart, intelligent, educated people who also have lived through some of the experiences that people live through when they're experiencing displacement is really inspiring. And I love that about my job as well. You've just reminded me of an example when I was working at a hospital that was also faith-based and didn't receive a whole lot of government funding. We had a gentleman who

had been admitted to the palliative care ward. And he was on his last legs and he was not in contact with family overseas. He wasn't on a permanent residency program. Like he had no access to Medicare and the hospital just knuckled down and said, you know what, this is a human rights issue. They managed to fly in his family, get in touch with them from overseas, fly them in and have them there for him and have the amount of support that he needed in a hospital setting on his last days. And I guess that goes back to those faith-based organisations being advocate for someone to have that dignity upheld and having, I guess, what you'd call a good death or even a good life.

Yeah, definitely. So I think that really also hits home. The social work role there is so important in being able to see that person, not as a condition, but as someone who's come with all these wonderful complexities and being able to respond to that. You've just reminded me by what you just said then, people just get creative. So I know that, you know, a lot of the people that we were supporting at the safe house, a lot of them didn't have Medicare rights. They had no access to income. They had no

work rights. They had very little social support. And we didn't know how long they would be able to remain in Australia if they were going to be able to remain in Australia. Obviously, they were linked in with lawyers and the supports that they needed. But we just got creative. So we would reach out to the Dental Association and basically say, who'd be willing to do pro bono dental for a day once a month? And people would come forward. Or, you know, we reached out to a imaging place, an ultrasound place. And they said that they do all our scans, our ultrasounds and x-rays for free for anyone from the safe house. The organisation I worked for built a partnership with a local hospital who, when clients, who unfortunately, and we only had a few, but who did get diagnosed

with a chronic health issue or cancer or whatever it may be, they would organize for a surgeon or a specialist to treat that person for free. And so whilst, yes, I was saying that it's a highly political area to work in and it's very challenging and it's got a lot of roadblocks, people are so incredible in the ways that they try and think outside the box. And a lot of that is social worker led. Not all of it, obviously, but social workers, because of their multidisciplinary education and background and learning, you know, we learn about policy and research and counselling and couples and families and group therapy and community development, a whole range of things, because of that diverse, rich knowledge that we have, we can take that into our

practice. I think we are very good at thinking outside the square and thinking, about, okay, well, what about this? Or have we thought about that? Or these particular needs are not being met by this person. And this is, like you said, a human rights issue. And how can we get around that? How can we work with the system and within the system to get the best outcomes possible for people so that they can live fulfilled, enriched lives? So, yeah, I really, there's some pretty incredible people in the sector, I would say. And, you know, a significant percentage of those are people who also have lived experience. And I love the fact that that sector, the force migration sector, does value that. I think in some ways more than some other sectors do, which is really great.

I think also in many ways where across the board generally not timid. So we're not concerned about making those partnerships because we can see the benefit for the person who's providing the support as well. So that dental organization or any of the other organizations that would have, or the individuals who would have reached out and said, yes, actually, I'm interested in doing that. That's great experience for them. That's something that they can enjoy and develop as part of their practice. So it's not as though it's a one-sided thing. Definitely. Yeah. What would you say is the most challenging part of your job then? So I can talk more broadly in terms of my job as in working in the sector I'm in and then I can talk about my role specifically. I think more broadly, the challenge

working in the forced migration sector is unfortunately over the years outcomes for people seem to be getting worse, not better. And as I've said a couple of times during this podcast, it does often feel like you're banging your head up against a brick wall because you feel like you can be trying and trying and trying and trying to get outcomes for people and policy changes and systemic changes so that people can access the basic rights that they deserve. And it feels often nine times out of ten you don't get there. And that can be quite disheartening and difficult for a lot of people in the sector, not just social workers, because you feel like for two steps forwards,

you've had, you know, 15 back. And I think that that can be quite disempowering as a social worker, let alone how disempowered the people are that you're trying to support. So I think emotionally that can be quite difficult. In terms of my role specifically in policy and advocacy in mental health and also in forced migration, because of the work that I've done directly with communities and in case management and so forth, sometimes it can be really hard to separate the stories of pain that I've heard from the past, from the work that I'm doing now.

And I can get highly invested in the work that I'm doing because I care so much about the issue and I care so much about the people that I have walked alongside, who I've had the privilege to walk alongside earlier on in my career. And I'm driven by those stories and the incredible resilient people that I've met. So I can sometimes find it difficult when I hit a brick wall from a broader macro level in terms of policy and advocacy to process that because what's motivating me is the people that I've met before and the stories that I've heard. So an example that I can give you is I remember there was the Medivac legislation for people seeking asylum. So it was essentially people who were very sick

and unwell on Manus Island and Nauru who were not able to access. the appropriate healthcare that they needed in offshore processing centres, legislation was passed so that they could be brought to Australia to receive the medical treatment that they needed to become stable and then would return to the offshore processing centres in, for example, Manus Island. And that was a huge win for the health rights of people seeking asylum, some of which had been on that island for seven years in an indefinite situation of not knowing when they were going to leave.

We're talking really serious chronic health, physical health issues or serious mental health issues, you know, significant suicidal ideation, self-harm, etc. And the moment that legislation was passed, the federal government started appealing. And I remember the day that the Medivac legislation got repealed. suddenly there were all these people stuck in Manus and Nauru, well, in Manis, who were very unwell and the Australian government had essentially, and this is a bit political what I'm saying here, but essentially symbolically said your mental health and your physical health is not as important to us. It doesn't matter. And you can just get the treatment that you need in the place that

you're at, even though it had been proven that they were not able to get the sufficient medical help that they needed on the ground in those places. And I remember when that happened and I was watching it on the news. And then I just went to the park across the road from my work. And I sat there and I cried for about two hours. There are times when you just feel like things are just getting worse and not better. And, you know, there's a real sense of despair sometimes. And I think that's where I'm talking about finding it hard sometimes to separate the stories and the lives of the people that I've known

from the work that I do. Because when that Medivac legislation was repealed, it was the faces and the stories of the people that I had met before that I remembered. And so I think it's deeply personal for me because of that. It's because of those incredible people that I have met. So I think that's a challenge. But, you know, that being said, I sat there in the park and I cried for two hours and I spoke to one of my friends and I went for a walk around the park. I remember saying to one of my friends,

I'm just going to feel really, really crappy about this today. I'm going to feel really awful. I'm going to feel like everything is hopeless and in despair. And tomorrow, I'll have a shower, I'll get dressed, I'll put on my work clothes, and I'll get back. to it because that's what you have to do. That's just what you do. The sector was in mourning when that happened because I don't think you have people who work in the refugee sector who aren't deeply passionate and don't deeply care. It's just one of those sectors that people just are so emotionally connected to the issue. And that's what we did. We all came back together, you know, the next day and we all kind of took a big sigh and went, oh, okay, what can we do now?

and that's what we did. And that's where, you know, passion and your values and where social work being a values-driven profession really comes into play because that's what motivates you even when it's hard is, you know, for someone like me, it's so important that my values are aligned with the work that I'm doing. And social work is a values-driven profession.

So that very much motivates me to keep going when things are tough. So you talk to people pretty much on a daily basis about pain, be that physical, emotional, displacement, uncertainty. I feel like we need to have the VT chat. What is it? How do you manage? That is a very, very interesting and topical question.

So that's something that I actually am very, very passionate about. And it's something that I am exploring a little bit more deeply with some of my colleagues because vicarious trauma is a big issue, unfortunately, not just for social workers, but for anyone working in the forced migration sector and in a range of different sectors, obviously. And I think that social work, in terms of our social work background and our education, one may argue that it sets us up a lot better or we're more prepared to face burnout and vicarious trauma because there is such an emphasis on reflective practice and personal

boundaries and professional boundaries and supervision and all of those sorts of things. So I think in a way we are better set up than say lawyers who perhaps haven't had that strong of an emphasis on those things as we have in social work. And lawyers, you know, I know some lawyers who when there was a tight timeframe, we're working 14, 18 hour days and hearing for those 14 to 18 hour days the distress of people. So it is a challenge. It's a really big challenge. I think that, well, for starters, I've got very strong opinions on this, but I think that anyone who's working directly with communities, you know, in case management or counselling or even community development related roles, their organisation should be paying for them to have external supervision. That should be a

priority. I recognise that not all organisations have a budget for that, but I actually think that we have an obligation to our staff and to the organisation as well when you think about staff turnover and all of that. We have an obligation to invest, exactly, to invest in that. I mean, group supervision can be fine as a complementary method. but I think external supervision where a social worker is able to choose their supervisor who fits with them is really important. That process obviously encourages reflective practice as well, but I think that all social workers, I mean, I know I did this when I was working in direct

service provision and I probably should still be doing it now, but I probably not. Allocating time to reflect upon your day, even if it's 10 minutes at the end of a day, to explore, okay, what did I do today? How am I feeling? Where am I at? Even just, you know, measuring on a percentage rating, how empty is my emotional tank right now? And what things have contributed to that? And what was a win for me? What was some of the wins for me today? And where did I really struggle? And why did I struggle with that? And so some really good reflective practice, even if it is just for 10 minutes at the end of the day. I think that's really important as well.

Debriefing with colleagues, I think is really, really crucial. And having a work environment where that is supported is crucial. And I think in addition to external professional supervision, one-on-one catch-ups with your direct line supervisor is really important as well. And I think just having some really good contacts in the sector that you're working. in because it's very, very common for people to be feeling run down, maybe not clinically burnt out, but some people do actually unfortunately experience burnout as well. But especially thoughts of hopelessness and despair, and this is the area that I'm really

interested in exploring a little bit more. I actually have a theory, which is that I think that hopelessness and despair and inability to act because of policy constraints, for example, that that hopelessness and despair can actually increase our susceptibility to vicarious trauma. And that being social workers, working in a values-driven profession, often for a lot of social workers, it's so important that their values, their personal values align with the work that they're doing.

And if you have to work in a context that requires you to, work against your personal values or potentially enact things that are completely opposite or in opposition to your personal values. And you couple that with hopelessness and a sense that you can't do anything. And then you couple that with also hearing highly distressing content from people. I actually think that that increases, that's my hypothesis anyway, is that it increases one susceptibility to vicarious trauma. And so that's something that I'm starting to explore from a research perspective, but I'm still kind of working through my ideas on that at this point in time. My understanding is that exposure to traumatic material alone is what puts us

at higher risk of developing vicarious trauma. It's not the support that we receive. It's not the ability to reflect. It's not our own value point or perspective, although that helps. That's potentially a protective measure traumatic material in the first place is almost guaranteeing that we will develop some form of vicarious trauma. So all of the things that you've suggested are fantastic and helping to reduce the effect of it. So I guess that's what you're researching. Yeah. And I think that what I'm curious to explore is yes, it's about the exposure to the traumatic content. but why is it that some people can be exposed to that traumatic content on a very regular basis and actually not experience significant impacts of vicarious trauma for five years,

but for another person it's only 12 months. And that's why I'm curious to look at the other variables that come into play and some of those things that I was just talking about. We are, unfortunately, we're seeing really powerful, passionate, engaged, fired up, motivated social workers who are going into the forced migration sector and they're leaving after 12 months. And that's a problem because it means that something's not working. And often that's the really disappointing thing in that they're brilliant social workers and, you know, they're highly invested in the work that they're doing. And so I think there's

a lot more to be done. I think social work can potentially lead, you know, as a starting point for other professions as well that are also experiencing this, you know, lawyers working in forced migration or doctors or, you know, people in community development contexts. Social workers can really lead the way in this because I think that we do prioritize it more than other professions do. And so I think there's a lot more work to be done there. But it's also incredibly rewarding work and it shouldn't be a deterrent for anybody at all because it's incredible. And the people you meet, you know, I wouldn't take back a second of it because it's incredible, incredible people that you come into contact with on a day-to-day basis. I'm sure you've got some good stats on this.

I just can't think of what it is at the moment, but I know that the prevalence of mental illness amongst lawyers and doctors, and that's probably why you've mentioned those two professions in the first place. Yeah. The prevalence of mental illness is very high. But I feel like, unlike sorts of social work where it is emphasized so strongly of looking after yourself, not so much in their training or their practice. That's right. Yeah, exactly. You've mentioned some practical, professional measures to look after yourself, but other

than that, what does self-care look like for you? Yeah. Well, during coronavirus, I've taken up running. So I've never, ever, ever been a runner in my entire life. And suddenly not being able to go to the gym has made. me run. I'm terrible at it still, but I ran six kilometres the other day. I was very proud of myself for that. I think it really depends on each person because everybody finds different things helpful for them. Exercise is a big one for me. It really is. I do moitai. Normally when the gyms are

open, I do moitai three times a week. I do dance classes. I do Pilates. So I do use exercise a lot because I find that it gives my mind a break because all I can focus on for that hour or however long it is is getting through the exercise and the pain of it. So exercise has really, really been important for me. Connecting with friends and loved ones is really, really important. So being able to go out to dinner with friends, which, you know, has been challenging actually during coronavirus. You know, going out to dinner with friends or going for a walk with them,

connecting with people has been really crucial. Getting enough sleep is a big one for me. I've always needed more sleep than other people. So I notice that when I'm starting to slip and I'm starting to feel stressed out, I go back to the basics. So good food, good sleep, good exercise, good friends. So they're the things that work for me. But for other people, it might be something else.

You know, it might be having a bath or it might be, I don't know, spending time with their pets. I mean, I have a very cute and demanding cat, so she also helps me. But I think it really is about coming back to yourself and recognizing what rejuvenates you, what gives you energy. And that really does differ for each person. And I think that takes a level of self-awareness and understanding of what is going to bring you energy or bring you calm or relaxation.

And what works for me may be the opposite. of what works for someone else. Someone else might completely want to curl over and not think about Moy Thai ever or running ever and think that that's hell to them or something like that. So, yeah, I think it really does depend on each person. Sure. Where do you see this career path taking you in the future?

Because it is quite unique, I think. Yeah, it is, it is. I think, so I've got a master's in international development. especially in refugee and forced migration. So I see two potential pathways for me. One is I've got a really big interest in the intersection between international development, social work and mental health. So it's possible, I don't exactly know what that would look like for me, but it's possible that I could take the international development pathway, but in terms of that intersection between mental health and social work and international development,

but I'm not sure what that looks like. The other area is I teach social work at a university, and I've done that for a couple of years now. And I also take on students and have been a liaison visitor for social work students, and I've done that for about five years now. So I'm considering the possibility of moving more into, I don't think I could be a full-time academic. I don't think that would work for me.

But, you know, potentially a research centre, that's related to forced migration or something like that within the university sector, either forced migration related or going back to what we were talking about before, you know, that connection between I've got a real interest in vicarious trauma and social work and potentially doing some more research in that field. So I think, you know, potentially doing a little bit more teaching or moving into the university sector in social work is another kind of pathway for me. but I think I'll always need to be able to do some form of advocacy in the work that I'm doing

because I'm just too outspoken. And, you know, but probably don't see myself returning to direct service provision anytime soon or potentially ever. Not because I don't love it or anything like that. I mean, some of my fondest memories are the people that I met, the stories that I've heard and the things that, you know, took place when I was in a direct service provision role. But because the policy environment of the sector that I work in can be so oppressive, I think I'd really struggle with seeing people be so disempowered by those systemic

barriers and I just need to do something higher up. So I think that for that reason, if I was to return to a more direct social work role, it probably wouldn't be in the forced migration sector because I think that it is such an oppressive policy environment, unless things change drastically, which, you know, would be incredible. But if it was to be in that sector, which, to be honest, I don't know if I'll ever be able to leave this sector. It's just, it's where my heart is, right? So I think it's always going to have to be on a broader macro level from now on.

Yeah, there's a few different pathways. We'll have to see where the world takes me. And who knows? Who knows what will happen? What do you think it is about social work that makes it such a good fit for this area? Like there are obviously many other people who do similar work to you at all levels who aren't social workers. What is the value out there? The value out of social work, wow, okay, it's multifaceted.

I mean, I think we've touched on the fact that social work does have a really strong focus on reflective practice and self-care and personal and professional boundaries. So I think that there's a lot that social work can bring in terms of how we take care of each other in the sector, which isn't prioritised as highly from my understanding in other professions. So I think that social work is in a position of leadership when it comes to how do we best support our workers who are supporting people in this sector? So I think from that perspective, there's a huge value adage. I think that social work more than other professions has a really good holistic view of how systems interconnect and interplay and how that can impact on an individual and their immediate family and friends and their community and their cultural group and their state and their country and their, you know, their position in a wide range of different systems. And I think that that is something that other professions may not have at the forefront of their mind as much as social workers do. And we really do have an innate ability to see those connections between the differing systems and what those relationships are and how they interconnect and where the tensions lie. And in a way, how to best use those systems to get the best possible outcomes for people and how to be creative.

Again, I think that goes back to something else we were talking about. earlier, social workers, because we have such a multidisciplinary educational background in terms of what we learn in our degrees, we can be really creative in the ways that we work and the ways that we create solutions. And we also probably have an understanding we're able to empathize with people in other professions who are working in the sector. So our background and education in socio-legal practice allows us to connect with lawyers who are working in the in my circumstance in forced migration. So the socio-legal understanding is helpful from that perspective.

And for us to understand how the legal or visa status of someone seeking asylum has such broader impacts on their health and their income and their employment status and their social connections and, you know, all of that. our background and education in more therapeutic interventions allows us to communicate and build relationships with psychiatrists or counsellors who may be supporting the people that we're assisting, but it also allows us to provide that emotional support to people on the ground as well. So I think that the multidisciplinary aspect is really, really beneficial as well. And I think finally, and I'm probably missing a whole range of things,

but because it's a values, I keep going back to this, it's a values driven profession. We have a code of ethics that very, very clearly outlines values, principles, ethics, the way we should be doing things, and it's value-laden language. It's human rights-based approach. It's, you know, about treating people with dignity with respect, talking about equity, talking about, you know, cultural considerations. And I think that because of that, I mean, I'm sure there are other professions that, you know, you could argue are values driven, but I think that social work is quite unique in the way that

values are very much at the forefront of how we practice in a lot of ways. And that intersection between our personal values and our professional values and how we develop, our personal practice framework, whatever that looks like based on our education and our own lived experience. We're acutely aware of the values that we have and acutely aware of the values of the profession and how they interconnect and interplay with each other in the way that we connect with people and the work that we do. Yeah. So it sounds like there needs to be a bit more a priority for funding bodies and governments in supporting the organizations and the individuals to look after each other as a deliverable.

Definitely. So not just demonstrating an impact to the clients or to the communities, but maybe having something in a priority set or here's a key deliverable for your organization, look after each other because inevitably then you're building your team, you're building your capacity and you're going to be able to do a better job overall. But also what does that look like? You know, so I think that it's one thing to say, have a deliverable of look after each other. But people's perceptions and people's misunderstanding of theoretical frameworks as well sometimes means that it's very subjective. What looking after your staff actually means in practice is very subjective, depending on the

organization, depending on the leadership, you know, all of that. I remember working for for an organisation where they proudly said that they worked from a strengths-based approach. And their idea of a strength-based approach was essentially not doing anything to support the client. And so, you know, it was very much a, if a client asks for your assistance with something, you tell them that they have to do it themselves because otherwise you're not working from a strength-based approach. I really challenged that and I actually, you know, I remember getting into a few heated

discussions in that particular workplace. I can imagine that. Because obviously strength-based approach is also about recognizing the capacity of the person and the limitations of the person that you're trying to support and actually supporting them to get to a place where they can do things for themselves. But to throw somebody into the deep end with no personal resources to be able to do so is actually the opposite of strength-based approach. So I think that there's a bit of a lack of understanding.

of these theoretical concepts that organisations throw around. You know, I think trauma-informed care and practice is another one that people misunderstand and don't properly implement in organisations because it's jargon that's thrown around without actually any sort of comprehensive understanding of what it looks like in practice. So I think that we need to be, if we're talking about, like you said before, deliverables of looking after each other, we need to be really clear and really specific, unfortunately, about best practice says social workers should be accessing external supervision. And there should be funding. If you are placing your social workers in an environment where

they're being exposed to traumatic content, you have an ethical obligation as an organisation to provide external supervision for your staff. And that should be budgeted for. because otherwise you're going to see a high turnover of staff and people are going to be leaving and that's happening unfortunately in a number of organisations in the forced migration sector. So like you said, it's beneficial for multiple people for the organisation, for the social workers, for the clients, for the people that we're supporting. So I think we unfortunately have to be quite prescriptive in the way that we explain what looking after our staff or looking after our social workers means because it's too subjective

at the moment and I don't think that's working. What changes have you seen in this field over time? You mentioned earlier that the outcomes are getting worse, not better. So what are you saying there? From a negative or a positive perspective? Give me both. Hit me. Let's start with a negative.

We'll end on a positive. Such a social like answer. From a negative perspective or from a more difficult perspective, we're saying less empathy from government, less understanding, less willingness to be flexible or adaptable, just more inhumane policies that are being rolled out under the guise of protecting people. So under, you know, that we're trying to stop the boats and we're stopping deaths at sea and da-da-da-da-da-da-da. But in reality, we are destroying people emotionally and sometimes literally destroying their lives

and people are taking their lives. We're damaging people significantly as a country. And I think that we're seeing less and less and less money being invested into supporting specifically people seeking asylum. We're seeing an over-reliance on unfunded non-government organisations, so non-government-funded asylum seeker organisations who are having to support people who are falling through the cracks and they don't have the resources to do that. So they're having to

grumble to pull things together at the last minute. There's, yeah, a very over-reliance on the not-for-profit sector to pick up the slack that the government is, you know, allowing. And we're seeing visa processing time take longer, more difficult for people to access financial assistance as well. So the status resolution support services, SRSS, it's called, has become ever more difficult for people to access with more and more eligibility criteria dictating whether somebody is eligible or not and them having to prove that they're unable to work

and jump through all these different hoops to prove that they're not able to work and support themselves. So it's a pretty, I mean, I know it sounds horrible and it's a pretty dire situation for people seeking asylum who are in Australia right now, let alone people offshore who are not being adamant, are quickly protected in terms of their health needs. Even more so during this pandemic and people in immigration detention during this pandemic

are not able to sufficiently physically distance themselves from one another. All the way down to little practical things. Like we know that during coronavirus in the immigration detention centres, they put hand sanitizer dispenses all over the place, but they're only filling them up once a week, so they're running out after a day. even down to the finer details. It's just they're an oversight. They're not a priority.

Then these are human beings who have suffered through horrific, horrific circumstances and have lost family and have lost friends. They're already terrified. Don't make them more scared. Exactly. And don't deprive them of their health rights. You know what I mean? And that's really why we've been pushing for the fact that all people living in the Australian

community, regardless of residency or visa type, deserve the right to be safe. during this time and deserve the right to have healthcare and a financial safety net. So anyway, that's some of the hard things, but I'm gonna move on to the more positive things, which is we've really seen the sector come together as a community and the collaboration in the sector, whilst it has its challenges at times, don't get me wrong.

And I think that part of the challenge of collaboration comes from the fact that we're having to compete over such finite resources and funding and grants and stuff like that. So that creates challenges for collaboration in the sector. But that being said, the way that the sector rallies together during crises for people seeking asylum, in the lead up to when we thought the Medivac legislation was going to be repealed, there was a group of, you know, a number of different organizations

working together as a coalition to try and get as many people off Manus Island as fast as they possibly could before that legislation was repealed. And they worked together to do that. And they got, you know, several hundred people to Australia to receive the healthcare that they needed. So that's incredible. You know, we see agencies coming together and saying, okay, well, we've got 15 of the most highly vulnerable people who all have no work rights, no study rights, no access to income, no Medicare. I can provide them support with housing. If you can provide them some support with financial

assistance, if you can link them in with your healthcare provider that you've got a relationship with and holistically supporting that person and not in a way that's making them have to shop around either because, as we would know, transport costs money and moving around is time consuming. So doing it in a holistic way where the person has wraparound support and filling in those gaps where there are resource shortages. So that's really, really incredible as well. And some of the advocacy work that's being done by organisations like Refugee Council of Australia is just incredible.

Refugee Council of Australia very much supports refugee-led leadership. And so, you know, they go to Geneva each year and they sponsor people from refugee backgrounds to go and be advocates over there with the UN. So some really incredible leaders doing amazing things and just trying to find the cracks in the legislation to get people access to what they need. I'm sure I'm missing a bazillion good news stories. But they're the two things that really stand out. for me and that is just how people have come together. A number of people that were medically evacuated a year or two ago and there was a large percentage of those people that were sent to Australia and the sector got together in within 24 hours and each organisation was like,

yep, I'll help that person, yep, I'll support that person and they all coordinated it in 24 hours. That's amazing. That's really incredible. And do you know, there's been some other good news stories like around coronavirus, some states and territories have provided some support packages, some financial packages to support not just international students, but people on temporary visas, including people seeking asylum during coronavirus. So, you know, Tasmania is one of those states. So, you know, there are some people in positions of power, politicians and duty bearers, I suppose, who are rolling out things to support. people seeking asylum and people on temporary visas who are vulnerable. So the good rolls with the bad.

We try and we try and hold on to the good. So yeah. How do you see social work continuing to make an impact in this area in the next safe life, 10 years? It's really about encouraging an environment in which all people who are supporting individuals in the forced migration sector have access to the best supports, so things like we were talking about, like supervision and debriefing and proper preparation. Even in the social work curriculum at university, if we know that social workers are going to be working in policy environments where their hands are tied, and we find out there is a correlation between hopelessness and inability to act and actually increasing. one's susceptibility to vicarious trauma.

And there is more that we can do to better support and prepare social workers before they graduate to understand these are the challenges that come from working in hostile policy environments as a social worker. And these are some of the things that can come up for you. And if we can get a really good baseline

of proving that just in one profession, then that can be a starting point for incredible research to protect lawyers, protect doctors, protect other people who are working in the forced migration sector. And I'm not saying that this is not an issue that's purely just impacting people in the forced migration sector. We know it happens in child protection. We know it happens in a range of different contexts. But I think there's a difference when you're working in an environment where government policy is intentionally designed to break people down.

The policy is hostile towards other human. beings. And so if we can better prepare our social workers, the next generation of social workers, to tackle that and get a better understanding of how all of that interconnects with vicarious trauma, then that could be a great contribution that social work makes to the sector more broadly over the next five to ten years. That's the big way. That's the lens that I'm coming at it, because that's what I find really interesting. I hope you get to work on that. That sounds like to have a huge contribution. Is there any kind of social work or any field of social work that you've never had any interest in?

Never had any interest in. Well, you just think I can't see myself doing that. Yes, it's funny. I think for a lot of social workers, they kind of find their niche and it's their niche, and they just, they love it. And, you know, I've spoken to colleagues of mine and they've said, oh, I don't know how you work in torture and trauma all day, every day, you know, when I was working at the safe house. And I said, well, I don't know how you can work in a children's oncology ward and see young kids dying all the time. So I think, you know, everyone has their niche area. I would really struggle, I think, working in probably in a hospital setting.

Just because I think it would be really hard seeing lives lost, depending on which environment you're in in the hospital setting. That to me would be, again, that sense of hopelessness and despair that I think I'd struggle with. I think I'd struggle with drug and alcohol as well in addiction. Not because I have any particular feelings either way, but I just don't think I have a lot of respect for people who can do it, but I don't know if I would be able to do it myself. I, again, I'd probably struggle with the relapsing of people and not being able to see outcomes for people

because I'm very outcome-tribun in the way that I do social work. And I think I'd really struggle, which is interesting because I also worked in mental health and recovery-based language in mental health is very much about the fact that it's a journey. The areas I wouldn't work in, I still have a lot of respect for people who can. It's like a, it's the same thing with aged care

or the aging community. It's probably not, or disability, physical disability perhaps. It's probably not an area that I'm overly passionate about, but then I think, you know, my grandmother had dementia, and I had so much respect for the people who supported her in the last, you know, five to ten years of her life and social workers who support people with dementia or people with acquired brain injury, I think must be so tough, but I have so much respect for you for that. And I think it's what you're interested in, really, what you're passionate about and human rights and injustice

really fuels me and, you know, motivates me. And I think that some of the most volunteers, people when it comes to human rights abuses and injustice are people who are fleeing persecution. And then when they arrive in countries of safety, in adverted commas, they're further persecuted and they're further abused by the systems and processes in place. So for me, it's that real sense of injustice that drives me forward. Sure. Are there any other projects or programs that you're working on that you're able to talk about? So in terms of some of the things that I'm working on in my workplace right now, One of the key things that I'm developing at the moment is a policy to ensure that people with lived experience can guide and lead our service and advocacy, service delivery and advocacy responses because engaging with and being led by people with lived experience is so crucial. And this is not just for forced migration.

This is for the entire organisation that I work with. It's so crucial, but often it's done very poorly or it's not done in the best. way or the most ethical way. And again, I think this is where social work comes into play in terms of ethical engagement with people, ensuring you're reducing a risk of retramatization, you're in reducing risk of vicarious trauma. If people are sharing their stories, ensuring that people are supported and valued, that, you know, engagement with people of lived experience is not tokenistic, that it's a mutually reciprocal relationship. So that's something I'm working on at the moment. I've obviously mentioned a lot of the coronavirus access-related issues for people on temporary visas,

people seeking asylum, so that's taking up a lot of my time at the moment. Some other issues we're looking at as well, which are quite interesting, and they're not in my normal field of work that I usually work in, is we're looking at as an organisation, whether our organisation should use its voice to advocate on climate change. And obviously we are seeing a number of climate change related environmental impacts at the moment and events and the bushfires and the droughts. And we're seeing a lot of impacts on communities which have been at the minimum correlated with climate change. And it's impacting the communities that we assist as an organisation and therefore as an organisation should we be taking a position and having, a policy statement on climate change as an organisation.

So that's another area that I'm looking at the moment. Doing some consultation with different people who are part of the organisation and community consultation with people. That's quite interesting. Another area we're looking at as well, which is quite controversial for some is drug law reform. So I found that really interesting because there are two areas that are kind of outside what I normally do.

Never a dull day. No. Are you sure you're just one person? That's a lot. Yeah, I think, you know, it comes, as I'm sure a lot of social workers will say, it comes easily when you care about the work that you're doing. You know, a good job is a job that doesn't feel like work. But also is very important to, you know, have good boundaries and have breaks and all of that. That's definitely something that I have learnt over the years.

Being very passionate about what I have done for work for a very, long time. I did have a tendency in my earlier years to sort of run myself into the ground and go very, very hard. It's easy to do that when you care about what you're doing and when you really, really care and you're really invested in what you're doing. But I think that it's important to be conscious of that if you are the type of person that kind of runs a million miles an hour and wants to say yes to everything because you're really excited about it and you're really inspired and motivated and invigorated by the whole process, it's really important to recognize that. and then make sure you allocate time to come down,

that you learn how to say no, which was something that I had to learn fairly early on and probably didn't learn early enough. That would be one thing that I would suggest. I guess that really hits home the importance of collaboration then and surrounding yourself with people who might be able to take some of that workload from you and that you can trust to do that because your work will never be done. So how do you then, as you said, create those boundaries?

How do you make sure that you do have time to do everything else? Exactly, exactly. And I think it's harder when I found it more difficult anyway, when I was in a direct social work role in case management, where I was at the end of each day going home and thinking, if I leave right now, this person may not, you know, how do I know that this person who's been self-harming or has thoughts of suicidal ideation, and I've done safety planning with them and, you know,

we've got a contract in place. How do I really know when I go home that they're going to be okay? I really found it more difficult when I was working directly with communities and with individuals because of what I felt was a sense of responsibility on my behalf. And I think that that's something that is really important to be explored in supervision and in your own reflective practice as well is, Like what you said, realizing that you can't be everything to everyone, that you're there to support and walk alongside people so that they can get to a point where they can empower themselves and be their own self-advocate. And that you can't support them if you don't support yourself. And that means that, you know, you do and you should rely on and depend on your colleagues and, you know, depending on what position you're in your. direct line manager and trust your colleagues to take over when you need to. And

collaboration is crucial. It's really, really crucial. I think that it's especially important in a environment where you feel like you've got a lot of roadblocks. It's even more important, I suppose. Yeah. And if people were wanting to know more about social work in this field, where would you direct them? So are there websites that you recommend? reading media. I know that there have been some really great documentaries and movies that have come out. Was it chasing asylum? I think was the title.

That's one of them. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There are. There's a number of, I mean, obviously, I think a good starting point is the National Refugee Lead Advisory and Advocacy Group, NRAG, which, as I said, it's that refugee led entity that creates platforms for the voices of former refugees. people from refugee-like backgrounds to participate in key decision-making processes,

but they also have some really fabulous resources on there around the importance of lived experience. So I think from that perspective, it's very important. These aren't necessarily all social work-specific, but it's kind of correlated. Refugee Council of Australia is fabulous. They have, you know, statistics and general information and stories and a whole range of things. Some of the really grassroots, innovative service delivery organisations in New South Wales are Jesuit Refugee Service, Asylum Seeker Centre and House of Welcome. So they're all unfunded. So they receive no government funding at all, that they do incredible, innovative, amazing things. RACS, which is the Refugee Advice and Casework Service, from a socio-legal perspective, is very good. From a mental health

perspective starts as well, which is the service for the treatment and rehabilitation of torture and trauma survivors. So they've got some really great resources in terms of mental health and in a whole range of different languages as well, which is fabulous. And then the AASW also put out a document a couple of years ago. And it was a scope of social work practice with refugees and asylum seekers as well. So I don't know if they've done. anything more recently than that, but I think that that's worthwhile having a bit of a read of, and there's a whole range of, you know, NGO guidelines for working with people who've experienced slavery or human trafficking or forced marriage or people seeking asylum. There's a whole range

of resources like that. I'm happy to send you through things as well if you have the capacity to put them up on your platform. There's a lot out there, so I can send you some leads. Perfect. Thank you. And that way people, if they're in, interested in reading further, they can just go off and do their own. Yeah, definitely. But if people have more specific questions about statistics as well, they're welcome to contact me. Or you can also find some of that information on the Department of Home Affairs website. They release reports, I think it's on a quarterly basis.

So they've got some of the more general statistics, not everything. But good statistics are also on Refugee Council of Australia's website. And is there anything else before we go that you wanted to maybe talk to social workers about or future social workers about what you do? No, I just think that it's really important and I've reiterated this. I'm like a broken record. It's really important to take care of one another in the sector. I think that sometimes working in the forced migration sector, it forces organisations and people and it's awful, but they have to sort of compete over resources and, you know, everyone's so time poor and pressured.

I mean, it's probably the same in a number of other sectors as well. But everyone's working towards the same common goal. And that is, from my perspective anyway, to make the lives of vulnerable people better and to ensure that people can live long, happy, fulfilled, healthy lives, feeling empowered and having access to the same basic rights that everybody deserves to have. And so I guess just being kind to yourselves, realizing that you can't be everything to everyone and that sometimes it can feel like you're banging your head against a brick wall, but you're one in, it sounds really cliche what I'm about to say, so don't judge me for it.

But yes, your one drop in, what is that saying? You're one drop in the ocean, but that ocean would be one drop less if you weren't in it. And I know that's very cliche and a bit corny to say that. but it is true. Each person makes a difference in this field of work. And even if you walk away at the end of the day and you have had one positive interaction with one human being that has made their life easier, that's a win.

And sometimes it can be easy to get bogged down with, I didn't achieve this and we didn't achieve that and it's so hard. But if you were able to help just one person, in even the smallest of ways, that's a win. And that person would not have been able to have received that support if you weren't there. And you're not on your own. There are many other little droplets out there. That's exactly right.

Yeah. So that's probably all I need to say about that. That's amazing. I'm so grateful for your time. This has been such a wonderful conversation. And I could go on forever because it's just so fascinating. But I really appreciate you taking the time and coming on board and putting yourself out there. and as I said, I'll put links to all of those wonderful resources.

And yeah, if anyone wants to continue the conversation, it sounds like you're open to it. Very open to it. Yeah. And I thank you and thanks for inviting me along and for having a chat. It's been great. I could talk about social work and forced migration for hours. So I'm glad you put a stop to it because I would have just kept on going. Thank you so much. Thank you. Just a quick epilogue before wrapping up episode nine, In our interview, Sarah spoke of a lack of financial safety net for people seeking asylum during COVID-19

and how some states had invested in support packages. After recording this interview, the New South Wales government announced a $6 million support package for people on temporary visas, including people seeking asylum. Unfortunately, only 1.5 of that 6 million is strictly for people seeking asylum to assist with food, medicine and housing, as well as half a million dollars to support the work of frontline agencies. This only just skims the surface when considering that there are around 40,000 people seeking asylum in New South Wales alone. However, some investment by our state government is better than no investment.

Thanks for joining me this week. If you would like to continue this discussion or ask anything of either myself or Sarah, please visit my anchor page at anchor.fm slash social work spotlight. You can find me on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter, or you can email SW Spotlight Podcast at gmail.com. I'd love to hear from you. Please also let me know if there is a particular topic you'd like discussed or if you or another person you know would like to be featured on the show.

Next episode's guest is Scott, who came to the profession after having initially worked in cabinet making, hospitality and pastoral work with young people before finding an innovative approach to social work through development of the Australian Social Work in Schools program. Scott is now the Social Work in Schools project officer focusing on building and maintaining partnerships with schools and developing resources.

He also teaches a number of mental health units at the University of New England, translating his skills and experience across social work, pharmacy, nursing and sports and fitness psychology. He is also a superfluous. of Social Work students on placement. I release a new episode every two weeks. Please subscribe to my podcast so you are notified when this next episode is available.

See you next time.