Social Work Spotlight - Episode 91: Eileen

Episode Date: April 20, 2025

In this episode I speak with Eileen, who has over 30 years of experience in child abuse, family violence, mental health and trauma and is passionate about the safety of children and ensuring the voices of children are heard. In 2022 Eileen launched her own company as a way of promoting primary prevention in the areas of child abuse and family violence.Links to resources mentioned in this week’s episode:Eileen’s business ‘Earlvention’ - https://www.earlvention.com.au/Safe and Equal, Melbourne - https://safeandequal.org.au/The National Association for Prevention of Child abuse and Neglect (NAPCAN) - https://napcan.org.au/ANROWS research - https://www.anrows.org.au/Love Bites program - https://www.napcan.org.au/Programs/love-bites/It’s the Little Things Community - https://www.itsthelittlethingscommunity.org/Dr Fiona Buchanan - https://people.unisa.edu.au/fiona.buchananAnother Day in the Colony (Chelsea Watego) - https://www.uqp.com.au/books/another-day-in-the-colonyHow Many More Women? A discussion at UNSW’s Centre for Ideas with Jennifer Robinson and Keina Yoshida - https://www.centreforideas.com/article/how-many-more-womenThe Whole Story (Patrick Todmarsh) - https://www.penguin.com.au/books/the-whole-story-9781787334625In Control (Jane Monckton Smith) - https://www.bloomsbury.com/au/in-control-9781526613226/Safe Home (SBS short series) - https://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/tv-series/safe-homeVictim/Suspect review in The Guardian - https://www.theguardian.com/film/2023/may/20/netflix-documentary-victim-suspect-women-rapeThis episode's transcript can be viewed here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1S2hKT-uJtuMjzgXZ2UrLU_ui57ruY_OEGhpmph_YEGk/edit?usp=sharingThanks to Kevin Macleod of incompetech.com for our theme music.

Welcome, Eileen. Thank you so much for coming on to the podcast and having the chat with me today about your social work experience. My pleasure. I would love to know firstly when you started as a social worker and what brought you to the profession. Well, look, I graduated in 1992 and as long as I can remember, I've wanted to be a social worker. So I think it was very much based on my parents gave me this really good sense of social justice. My dad was a surgeon and my mum was a doctor and they very much, much instilled in us. They lived in Denver, Colorado, in the early 60s, back when Ruth and Henry Kemp discovered what was then called the battered child syndrome. And they worked very much in the early days of child abuse being realized as a thing. I mean, we know it's always been there, but in terms of

the initial people who started work in this industry were doctors initially. So I think they very much brought us up with this sense of social justice. So we sponsored a Vietnamese family in the 70s, early 80s, then in our Salvadorian refugee family. We had an exchange student who had a disability that meant she had to be, you know, turned and toileted and all those sort of things, you know, but they thought that she should have that experience, which was fantastic. So I remember when we were all adolescents, they took us to India on holiday. And I remember going to a medical village that had one doctor for hundreds of thousands of people. So, you know, I think they kind of instilled that in us. And then my mum continued when they moved back to Australia, working in the

field. So she was, again, a GP. But back then, she worked very closely with the domestic violence and incest resource centre that's now safe and equal in Melbourne. And she got referrals for them to do counselling of families where a child had been sexually abused. And she gave evidence in the family law court on a lot of occasions. So she was also one of the founding members of Nat Kan, which is the National Association for Prevention of Child Abuse and Neglect. So I could clearly say my foundation in doing social work clearly lies from a lot of work that she did. So as an adolescent, I wasn't doing work experience. I was spending a lot of time listening to her and I remember, you know, Child Protection Week launches and functions and things that we would all help at. So I remember

at school saying, I'm going to be a social work and they're like, yeah, that's fine. But you you need a second choice or a third choice? I said, no, no, no, no chance. Wow. So you really knew from quite a young age what a social worker was and what the scope of work would be. Yes, absolutely, absolutely. Which is somewhat unusual because a lot of people think, I just want to help people. I have this strong sense of social justice, but I don't quite know what that is, maybe that's psychology and often now start down that path, but it sounds like you went straight into social work out of school. Yeah, absolutely. And in fact, you know, at the time in Melbourne, you could go to Melbourne uni or Monash uni and do a sort of arts degree and then go

on to social work. And there was only one uni, which was then Philip Institute and became RMIT, where you could go and do the full four years. And I was like, that's where I'm going, because I want to do it immediately. I don't want to do something else and transfer in. And back then were there two placements? Was that set up slightly different to have a time? Three, actually. Yeah. So because it was a four-year course. So the second year placement was a group placement, a project or something that you did together. So a group of us worked at the Salvation Army actually doing a resource for young people. So we had to go around and visit all the local services and, you know, put together a resource document. Yeah. So that was quite good. And then I actually

ended up doing some part-time work for them in their drug and alcohol program. They had camps and things. So that was a really good experience. And then my third year, I did a foster care place. which again was really good because I thought that's kind of where I want to go. I want to work with children particularly. And then my final year was at the Royal Children's Hospital Centre for Adolescent Health, which had only just opened back then, which is now a really good centre for young people. So I did some sort of research there about young people with chronic illnesses and their access to services. So there were three very different placements and I'm glad I went to three very different places. And I would encourage, you know, social work students who are listening

to do the same because I think even though you know what you wanted to do and I knew what I wanted to do and have done it for 30 years, it's so good to have those multitude of experiences. And what was it like for you stepping out into social work profession as a newly graduated social worker? I was lucky in that my very first job was as a foster care field worker and it was way out sort of west of Melbourne, and it was the local government. So it was good in that we had this sort of team of, you know, there was youth workers, there was family support workers, there was a variety of workers that all work together. But when I think about it now, when I think about some of the advice I gave, given I was quite young, I'm glad I picked a job that was not as challenging as

some I later had because it provided a really good foundation for that early work with families and children and young people. And how did you know it was time to move on from that? Well, I think I was there about three years and I think I always knew I was going to go into child protection and I thought I'd, you know, gone to a lot of meetings with them. I'd made relationships with people because obviously we worked quite closely with child protection in foster care. And so I think after a couple of years, the Shire that I was working in, the program was going to be tended out to an agency. So I thought, you know what, I think this is a really good time to kind of move along. Yeah. Yeah. And so was child protection

what you expected as a professional? Look, I had a kind of unusual experience in child protection because within my first couple of weeks, I actually had an awful critical incident. They'd give me the easiest case. And it had a really true. tragic end. And I sort of started my child protection career then having to, you know, obviously manage that, having to go to the coroner's court and investigations and stuff. But I think it gave me that real foundation that the coroner, the internal investigation, everyone basically said we had done everything we could possibly do. And there was still a tragic outcome. And I think that stayed with me ever since then in that as social workers,

we are dealing with people's lives in a lot of instances in a different way to a doctor or other professions. But at the end of the day, we can work really hard, we can do everything right, we can do all we need to do, and there's still going to be some tragic outcomes. And the second lesson I think I learned out of that is the easiest case can go pear-shaped, you know, and a really complicated case that you think is going to take all your time and energy can resolve itself quickly. So, you know, the nature of human behavior and the way we interrelate with each other,

you know, shows us that what something looks like on paper or a story you heard can change over time. So I think it was much more challenging than I thought it was going to be, but kind of for different reasons. And I saw that you were involved in after-hours child protection as well. How did that differ to your average day-to-day?

Yeah, absolutely. So look, I went overseas for a couple of years and then I came back and I really enjoy the response work, the urgent visits. And so I did that in the daytime office for a couple of years. And then I had a couple of kids and I was thinking, how do I get that balance, work life balance? And so shift work was the answer. Who knew? And so for me, I think it was being able to sort of spend the day with the kids, do what I needed to do, but also still have a career that was really meaningful for me and that was doing. And that was doing. doing the work that I really wanted to do. So I was there at that point for about 12 years and I sort of had casual positions, part-time positions, full-time positions. But I think it was that the critical risk assessment work that I found quite rewarding, really, and a team of people that were really experienced and a system in place. I suppose what I found during the day is, you know, when you would work at a divisional

office and every team functions differently, as we know, but, you know, you kind of had your caseload and people would help you, but it was that sense of you kind of running your own show and doing what you needed to do with a bit of support. And I think the difference with the after-hour space is all your visits are in twos. There's a lot of consultation throughout the shift, because obviously there are cases that you don't know, that you're picking up from the sort of divisional officers.

So there is that real team working together since. And I know at times, you know, I'd take a phone call and it would be quite difficult and I'd sort of hang up and people around me would be aware of it and would have a conversation with me about, oh, what happened there? Are you okay? You know, so there was a lot of opportunity for that kind of debriefing and support that I didn't get as much, I think, working during the day. Yeah, that's really interesting because I guess I have this perception of that work being a bit more isolated. But it sounds as though you really have. an additional level of safety because you had to work in theirs. Yeah, absolutely. And I think across a shift, so for example, you know, on night shift, you know, there's actually only kind of, you know, five or six people on. So if you've got calls coming in and there's visits, etc, you kind of as a team almost have to think, right, how are we going to manage this? We've got to manage a situation here, a situation here, and someone's still going to answer the phone. So, you know, you've got a team

manager and a management structure, but you've also got this sense that we're kind of all in it together. So how can we all work together for the best outcomes for these children and young people? Yeah, that's incredible. You mentioned that you've been overseas as well. Can you explain what that was all about? What were you doing when you're working there? Absolutely. So I'd spent a couple of years in child protection, I think about two years.

And I thought it's time to do something else. And a couple of my friends from child protection, the sort of three or four of us, decided, let's go overseas for a couple of years and get some work in London. I was lucky in that my mum's Scottish, so I was able to stay as long as I liked. And so we all went over, and I had two social work jobs there. And the great thing about the UK is the Locum system, where you can, you know, work for a couple of months and then travel and a couple of months and travel, and that's very much what I did. Well, back then, this is the 90s. Things could have changed since then. So they were very much children and families teams. So you dealt with adoption,

disability, child protection, children in need of extra help and support. So it was much more generic social work still with children and families. So I worked in two particular boroughs that were very different. The first one was in Hounslow at the office in Feltham and it was very much a poor suburb, but it also had like a significant proportion of racial violence, which is not something that dealt with before where, you know, shops were, rocks were thrown, fires were set, like it was quite dramatic. And I hadn't had that experience here up until then. So it really gave me this sense of, you know, the way people behave with each other and the impact racism has on people. So that was a really good learning experience for me. And then after that, I went to the Royal Borough

of Kingston, which was a different sort of demographic. But again, you know, doing children and family's work and there's still sort of some cases that I had when I was over there that taught me really important things about the way we work with people. So I was there for two years. So it was a really good experience and seeing how another jurisdiction works, I suppose, you know, totally different legislation and they seem to do a lot more assessments. Well, I did a lot more assessments when I was there than I did here. What an incredible experience for you. what made you decide to come back to Australia rather than stay where you work? Well, I think I'd sort of done all the travelling I wanted to do, although you can never say that,

can you? But I'd done a lot of travelling. I'd been away for a couple of years. And so I think I just, I knew I'd go for, I thought I'd go for six months or a year. So I lasted for two years. I am a bit of a homebody and I do like, you know, I'm quite close with my family and what have you. So I think it had just run its course and I came back just before Christmas. I think I won Christmas or A was enough and so I wanted to come back for the next one and I actually, that year, a couple of my sisters got married so it was time to sort of come back and engage in the family thing, I think. Yeah, that makes sense. And what were your roles when you came back? You had the child protection role. What came after that? Well, when I first got back from overseas, I actually got a job with McKillop Family Services in

specialised home-based care. So it was, I suppose I'd been doing foster care previously, but this was, you know, for children with more complex issues. And so the families were provided a little bit more support and guidance. So I probably did that for about 12 months. And then the drawback to child protection was there. And so I went back and worked in a divisional office for about four or five years until I started having babies. Had a couple. And then I went back, part-time as a back then they don't have them now, but specialist infant protective workers. So it was working with families where there's a baby under two and looking at the significant risk factors that apply to, you know, more vulnerable babies. And so it was, you know,

a mentoring role where you'd work with the allocated worker or provide extra consultation and advice to allocated workers. So I actually really enjoyed that and focusing on on the sort of risk assessments that come, you know, with infants. But I suppose for me it was always a struggle to get, you know, I wanted that work-life balance. And I don't think it was, I had to fight tooth and nail to get that sort of part-time position. And so when I had my third baby, it was, it was a bit like, you know, I don't know that I want to do that then, which is what drew me to after hours, because I wanted that work-life balance and it was hard to get. I still don't think we do well with that in the social.

work profession, I think because demand for services so high, I think we just aren't able to, you know, find that mix or management and organisations can't seem to work out how that works, which is, yeah, then I ended up at after-hours child protection. Was it difficult doing that kind of work when you had toddlers of your own, infants of your own? Yeah, look, it was, but I suppose it also gives you that extra insight about. their care need and their vulnerability. And I certainly think that my work changed in different ways when I had kids. At times, yes, it was harder, although I've always been quite good with my

kind of boundaries. But I think it does give you that insight. And I don't think you necessarily have to have your own children. But if you spend time with children, I think you then have a sense, or a different sense about how demanding it can be and how dependent they really are on. sort of everything. And what was the progression then from that after hours work to what you're doing now? Well, basically what happened is I had a friend who lectured at TAFE and she said to me, you know what, you should maybe do your cert for in training and assessment and do some part-time work. And it was sort of 2019 then and I thought, you know what, yep, kids are all at school, you know, it would be kind of good to have a mix where I do a little bit of after hours child protection and, you know,

one or two days a week teaching, maybe that would be a really good balance. So I did my cert foreign training and assessment and in late 2019, I got a job teaching in mental health and family violence at TAFE. Well, the family violence came a bit later, but in mental health and sort of community services three days a week. And then, of course, March 2020, the world changed. And I thought, I've got all these kids at home. I can't really do child protection shifts.

And the TAFE I was working at said, well, you go full time. just for a month or two to get us over this, you know, whatever this is. So I said yes. So I kind of left child protection. I never made the decision to leave. The pandemic hit and it happened and I left and I worked full time at TAFE and then COVID never went away and still hasn't. So sort of three years later I was still teaching at TAFE and look it was a really good experience. During that time I also did a graduate certificate in adult education and training and it really really was a really. really got me excited about training in education. I think even when I was at child protection, I was like, you know, we need some sort of a mentoring program. You know, I've got so much

knowledge and skills that could be passed on to the next generation of workers. But I think the problem is in frontline services, no one has time for that. There's too much work to be done. And so the sort of few years I was teaching, you know, I was teaching about trauma-informed care, about recovery-oriented practice, about, you know, all these sort of stuff that was, it was actually really good for me to take the time out and really work through that theory and do a bit of my own research. And, you know, in my graduate certificate, I had to do a research project. And by this time, I was teaching the accredited family violence training that the Victorian government had produced. So, and I was on, you know, an expert panel for best practice education. And I had a lot of, I suppose,

time to do that deep dive into some theoretical frameworks, but also some research. ideas, some different models of practice. And that was actually probably came in a really good time. I'd sort of had all this experience and I could really cement that. And so at the end of last year, I was at a stage where I thought, you know, this has been a really good experience, but it's time again to move on to something else. So my own practice was born. And that's Elvention. And, you know, I spent quite some time coming up with the name because I wanted it to really reflect what I was doing. So it's very much a mash of early intervention and primary prevention. So Earlvention. Because I think at the moment, frontline services are slammed. If you look at police,

if you look at child protection, I'm actually back doing. The odd shift it after hours and it's, you know, really busy. And hospitals are flat out. Family violence services are flat out. And yes, you know, we probably need to put some more time and energy into that. But if we go back a few steps. And if we really put some work into early intervention and primary prevention, I think we could make a difference. If you look at sort of, you know, once someone comes to a family violence service, for example, the amount of work that they need to engage in, that the perpetrator needs to engage in, that the children, victim survivors need to engage in, is significant in order for them to heal and recover. Can we not prevent some of this from happening? And, you know, I think, yes,

We do have prevention services at the moment. There is money going into them. You know, governments are committed to it. But it's not working. You know, the number of women and children who are dying is not decreasing. The number of people accessing family violence services is not decreasing. So whatever we're doing, we're even not doing what we should be doing or what we're doing is not working. So we really need to go back a couple of steps.

So that's really, you know, the work that I'm trying to. do now. There was a recent study released, I don't know if you know, about the Anne-Rowe's research that was released about community attitudes to violence against women. And, you know, 42% of Australians think that family violence is equally men and women. So there's a total lack of understanding of the gendered nature of family violence. And so we have to change that. We have to change community attitudes and we have to teach people about, you know, what is and isn't appropriate about respect about healthy relationships. And how do you go about that? Because I imagine there are various opportunities to cater it to very different populations. Yeah, absolutely. And so,

look, I'm doing a couple of things. I recently ran a community forum in my local area. And that was basically for any member of the community who worked with children and young people, because I suppose my premise is that children and young people are victim survivors in their own right. And obviously that's written into various documents. Let's actually start demonstrating that that's the case because I think we give it lip service and there's a lot of services for adults and we hope the byproduct of that is that children are safer.

I think we need some child-centred services. But in terms of what I'm doing, so I've got some on my website, I've got training that's available for purchase. So for example, if you're a sporting club, if you're a community group, if you're an organisation. There's training about, you know, the child safe standards,

what that means for us, what we need to do, about child abuse awareness, about family violence awareness, about sexual harassment or sexual violence awareness. So that information for the general population in terms of what can you do. And I suppose my point of difference is that I provide some practical skills. So if you and I are sitting here right now and you say to me, I'm really tired because,

I got home late last night and my partner was really angry, then I'll talk to people about what could we say to that person, you know, could we say something like, oh, my partner would be worried if I was late, but he wouldn't be angry? You know, how do you have those sort of little conversations that could plant a seed that could maybe look towards some of that prevention stuff? So if someone makes a disclosure to you, if someone says something, you know, if you're at a football game and someone yells out, you know, you're playing like a girl or something really derogatory. Who confronts that person? How do you confront that person? How do you change the narrative in those everyday situations? Because I think if people in the community could have those

general skills to be able to address that, that would make a difference. So the other thing, too, is in organisations. You know, I've worked with some organisations trying to embed gender equality in their organisation, in their business. So that's about, How do your policies reflect gender equality, but also, you know, how does your organisation, you know, and you could be a IT business, how do you deal with someone makes a disclosure of family violence or how do you manage a situation where there's sexual harassment? Do you have the policies in place, but also are your staff trained? So I do the face-to-face training as well. What is family violence? What is sexual violence? How do we identify it? How do we recognise it? How do we

respond to it. So I suppose there's a number of different things that we're doing to try and, but again, trying to work with in that, you know, prevention space. Yeah. Reminds me a little bit of training that I was involved in many, many years ago when I worked in the community called Love Bites. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Which I think is in different states as well. Absolutely. But that's catered to high school students. I mean, it can be primary as well, but a lot of it is around healthy relationships and how do we recognize when it's not and how do we try to support both from the students and the teacher's perspective trying to support people through what might be an issue for them. And again, it's a lot of that prevention stuff.

Yes. We're trying to catch things early and teach good relationship skills. And I think that's the thing. You can't do any one thing in isolation. You know, you've got to, you know, in that sort of situation, you've got to talk to the students, you've got to talk to the teachers, you've got to talk to the parents because no one system in that can make the choice. changes that are needed. And I think particularly, you know, we've created this misogynistic world

for our children and young people. So it's our responsibility that we give them the tools to be able to navigate through that and hopefully make lasting changes. Are you delivering training with partners, with colleagues, or is this all something that you take on? Because that sounds quite exhausting. Yeah, absolutely. Look, it's exhausting, but it's exciting as well in terms of trying to make a difference. So I've partnered with, so I've got a charity that I sort of support through my work. It's the Little Things community and they make meals for vulnerable people. So that's been a really good experience. So I've actually got an event with them tonight. So I'm partnering with the charity and we have the community forum. And I suppose in some senses what I'm doing is building a village

of people that can tackle this. So I've got some peers who will do some training with me, you know, depending on the demand, but also, you know, the community forum that we held a couple of weeks ago was actually great because there was a family violence service there, there was some teachers there, there was a couple of people from healthcare. And actually, we had a speaker from the Centre Against Sexual Assault, so that was really good. And so I could see the networking happening in the room as well and the communication, because I think the other significant thing is about collaboration. And again, I think it's kind of hard when demand is. high for everyone to be able to collaborate, but I think collaboration is a really important

tool that we've all got. You know, if we can all work together, then we can make some real differences in terms of what we're doing. So, yeah, I kind of like going into different organisations and every organisation has a different feel, but also different expectations and different demands of what they want. So, you know, I can very much contextualise my program. So, obviously, you know, if I work with a family violence service, they are much more aware of what family violence is. So it's a different level of training. So that is what makes it kind of interesting and exciting. And I can see that you're very good at multitasking, but that's probably something that your family experience has built in you because, you know, your parents were working,

raising kids, supporting people that were sponsored to stay with you who really needed a lot of support. So that probably is something that you don't even think of. It probably comes quite naturally. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I suppose when you start your own business, opportunities come up and they are constantly coming up. And it's like, what direction do I want to go in? And the responsibility I have is that I am building this, you know, brand for one of the better name, but I want Earlvention to be about prevention, to be about early intervention, to be about changing society, really, and community attitudes. So I suppose when I think about the way, work that I take on, I have to make sure that it reflects that and what we're trying to achieve.

So I actually had the opportunity to speak in Wollongong. They had the National Domestic Family and Sexual Violence Conference, and that was actually really good to hear what other people are doing in this space. And I had the opportunity to speak as well. And that was a really enriching experience to be able to do that and to be able to connect with other people in this space as well. We are notoriously bad at marketing ourselves. Yes.

Did you find that particularly difficult? Did you get mentorship around that? Yeah, look, I'm actually in a couple of groups, and I feel like I'm in this space where I'm learning lots and speaking a whole other language because, you know, I'm like, do I use Qajabi or mighty networks or in business? There's all these other, it's another world, really. But yeah, look, I'm in a couple of groups. One is a women's small business group, and I'm part of that.

And there's another couple of groups that I'm part of, which is actually really good because that's an opportunity for you're all working individually in your own business. But again, it's that real collaborative, you know, sharing ideas and we might all meet. And it's like, you know, oh, what resource are you using for this or that? And what I love about it is people give you tips and ideas and they're not, you know, oh, no, this is mine and I'm going to keep this business to me and I don't want to share this kind of idea with anyone. You know, it is that real collaborative.

And I think, you know, women supporting women to be able to, to run their own business. So that's been really good because it can be isolating while you're sort of doing the work on your own. But then, you know, like every day is different. You know, one day I might wake up and think, right, this is what I've got to do today. And then, you know, I'll get a call or I'll get a project or something will happen. But also, you know, it's good to have that flexibility as well in that, you know, on a Wednesday I can actually have a day off if I need to because, you know, I'm sort of running around my own schedule, if that makes sense. Yeah, and I guess in a similar way, if you're able to bring in some of those networks to do

training, if you've got a larger group and you need more facilitators, do you then get asked to reciprocate to stand in for people if they need extra people to help with the training? Yeah, look, at times that can happen. Yeah, absolutely. And I suppose it's about, I'm very clear about where my expertise is and isn't. So if an organisation says to me, so I've done some work in the disability area, but not a lot. And I had a project recently that was focused on disability. So I brought someone in because I thought, well, I actually, I want this to be a really good piece of work and therefore I want that expertise.

So I'm more than happy. And I've got quite an expansive network to be able to do that, which is really good. And then the same, you know, someone might say to me, I've got, you know, difficulty with this, etc. And I'm happy to pitch in and help there as well. And, you know, I have been approached about another teaching role, but I don't, you know, I really want to build what I'm doing now, not do that. I'm not saying that some days I don't wake up saying maybe I will, we'll look and see what's around. But, you know, I think I'm really focused on growing this. And it's, it's great that I'm at a point in my career where I can do that. And I think it's got a lot to offer. And I think it's, you know, it could make such a big difference if we could really get into that prevention space and actually really start doing some of that work. And you're being conscious of not spreading yourself too thin. Yes. It's very clever.

Exactly. Exactly. And I think you've just got to, because that's the thing, someone said to me, oh, why don't, you know, have you thought about doing this? And I'm like, what a great idea. But no, I need to stay focused. Because there's, you know, and there's a lot of organisations out there, which is fantastic. And they all do great work.

So I want to focus on what I want to do and what I think is required. So other than not being able to be in 10 places at one, and doing all the things that you want to do, what would you say is the hardest part about having started your own business? Because I've worked, you know, in child protection, family violence and some sort of frontline demanding roles, I've always had really good boundaries. I walk into the office, I do my job and I walk out again, and it's all good.

The problem with starting your own business is at 3am, you wake up with an idea and you think, oh, I've got to get up and write that down. Yeah. And I think the other thing, too, is having worked in a very fast-paced industry, I'm sort of like, you know, I'll sit down to start working on a project and I have this overwhelming sense that I've got to quickly get it done. And I think when you're developing training or working, you really need to take the time to work through things. You know, I've done a lot of reading. I've

done a lot of research and I'll come across things and I'm like, I'm not sure how I feel about that actually. Do I agree? Do I not agree? And so you actually, the challenge for me is to slow it down. to absorb the information and think really carefully about how I want to present things, how I want to say things, and how I'll do them. So I think it's probably the challenge is to, you know, shut it off overnight, but also to sort of slow things down because it's about growing the right business the right way, not just taking everything that's on offer so that I make some money and that's that. That's not what this is about at all. This is about, you know, building that village and making real change. And what would you say is the most rewarding or your favourite part about this work you're doing

now? I think it's that it's driven by me and my ideas. I think, you know, I sort of got to the point where, you know, working in a bureaucracy, you kind of have to run the party line. You have to sort of, you know, this is what's happening. It's a bit like, you know, I went to a, you know, a launch recently and it was like, you know, prevention works. We know what works. We've just got to keep doing it. And I was standing there thinking, I wonder. if you honestly believe that because if you honestly believe that, look at the statistics, it's factually incorrect. You know, and we all talk about evidence-based practice. The evidence shows us that our current prevention strategies aren't working because same number of women have died

this year as they did last year and there are more women accessing services in terms of family violence and sexual assault than there have been. So the statistics say something else. So I suppose what I like is the fact that I can say, guess what, everyone, prevention's not working. And I'm not, I don't have this government funding for prevention that means I have to say it's working. Yeah. So I think it's that freedom to explore my ideas and my concepts and, you know, some things that I've been thinking about doing, I can now put out there and make some real

lasting change. So I think it's, I feel really empowered. I feel like my years of experience has been consolidated and, you know, hopefully I can get that message out there and those ideas out there. And, you know, I'm also happy to debate with people if they think, you know, if you think prevention is working, send me a message. I suppose that's what I really like is that sort of let's talk about it. Let's have those conversations. Let's not shy away from it. And, you know, it's a bit like, I remember when I first started in social work, everything was meshed in, really. You know, as a social worker, I dealt with, you know,

drug and alcohol and mental health and sexual violence. And we've sort of specialised things, which I think is good and necessary. But I also think it's made us put sexual abuse in that box and family violence in that box and child abuse in that box. Well, hang on a second. If an adult male is accessing, you know, child exploitation material, there's most likely, likely family violence because there's that control to hide what he's doing. You know, there might be mental health issues. You know, it's all interrelated and we've kind of broken it apart a bit. And I think, you know, we need to look at the whole picture.

And, you know, I think specialist services are really good and appropriate. But I think at times we just need to be careful that we don't, you know, break it apart so much that, well, I'll go to you for sexual violence help and I'll go to you for family violence help. and we all need to be working together. So I think that as well. So we don't all necessarily need to be specialists, but we need to understand how we can pull in experience and resources from the people that we collaborate with.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And look at the links that there are. Yeah, so interesting. But what support do you need in this role to make it sustainable? You mentioned keeping good boundaries and making sure that your days are. are well-scheduled, but you know, you're a mum, you've got a lot of other responsibilities. What support do you need? Yeah, so look, I've actually got a really good support network around me.

You know, so on the weekend I had dinner with sort of a group of people that I started working with, you know, 30 years ago now. So I suppose I've got really good supports and really good networks and I've got people that I can debrief with. I think the difference is that, you know, if you work in an organisation, you know, they'll have, you know, EAP or you'll have your peers and they'll have that sort of support there. In your own business, you've got to make more of an effort for that to happen. But I also think it's kind of good in that I can choose where I get that from. So I've got this sort of team of people from the education training sector that are not social workers, but they've worked a lot in education and training and I can really talk through stuff with

them. I've got my sort of child protection people who I can talk through with them. I've got a friend who's a trauma expert and I can, you know, so I've sort of got this really good sort of network around me and I make much more of an effort. I know when I was working full time with kids, blah, blah, blah. It was really hard to catch up with people. I am now catching up with people all the time because, you know, we're catching up, we're having coffee. Oh, we could work on this project together. And, you know, I met with someone the other day and she's like, let's do a project together and I said, okay, great, what are we going to do? And so we're in this really good space of, you know, the options are endless. What will we do? How will we do it? You know, do we do a training.

Do we do a workshop? Do we, you know, and so I'm learning a lot from other people. So it's like I've created this workplace of people I choose to work with rather than we've all applied for the same job and we're in this bucket. So they're all in similar fields to me and they're people that I have met throughout my career. But it's sort of my pool of people, which is actually really, really, really great. Yeah. And I'm learning a lot from that and I'm getting opportunities out of that as well. So that's been really good.

Have you seen many changes given that you've had this expansive experience over that period of time in the child protection family violence space? Are the statistics changing? Are there differences, I guess, in terms of policy direction or funding? Are there changes whether good or bad that you've seen? Yeah, look, I think there's been big changes over the period. I think, you know, we've come a long way. I think we've got a long way to go. I know, you know, when I first started in child protection in the 90s, it was women and children were in refuges and perpetrators disappeared and we didn't really engage with them. You know, if they came to us, we would. But, you know, it was pretty much you go there, you go there, and never the twain shall meet. So things have changed dramatically from them. I suppose I've had the benefit of in child protection. I've worked with perpetrators. I've worked with adult victim survivors and I've worked with children victim survivors. So it's given me a good overview, I think, and there are a portion of

perpetrators who, you know, have significant issues and, you know, should be dealt with in the criminal justice system. I also think that there's a proportion that if a lot of work was done with them, then change would be possible. Probably not for the relationship they're currently in, because I think once, you know, the power imbalance becomes so enmeshed in a relationship, It's hard to undo that. Not impossible, but it's hard to undo that. So if we did some really good work with perpetrators, their next relationship might be more equal. It might be too late for this relationship and it might be unsafe for this relationship. But hopefully they'll go on to have better relationships and perhaps even relationships with their children and young people. And I would hope for victim survivors that their next relationship could then be a more equal relationship. and that they, you know, get the support to sort of deal with that. So I think things have changed, but changes are made. You know, we wouldn't have had coercive control discussion

if Hannah Clark and her children hadn't have died in Queensland. I mean, yes, there was discussion before that, but it kind of takes these awful, awful incidents for real change to be made. And, you know, I was in my community forum the other day and I was thinking about, ironically, on my way there, on the radio Tracy Chapman song, Why, came on. And that was, I think she recorded that in the 80s. You know, why is a woman still not safe when she's in her home? It's 2023. We know this. We don't need more people to die or there to be tragic incidents. We know that women aren't safe in their home.

We know that this is a problem. So we have to put more time and energy into it. But it's got to be the right time and the right energy. So I think, I've seen some of the campaigns and I think some are very expensive and don't do what needs to be done. Don't send the right message, which is easy for me to say because you know, you can be critical when you're looking outside. But there are times when I look at what we put our time and money into and I think what a waste. That's really not going to achieve anything. You know, so if you think in the last five years you probably have you seen an ad about the prevention of violence against women. Yes, and statistics aren't changing and community attitudes aren't changing.

So, you know, maybe TV commercials and that isn't what we've got to do. Maybe we've got to try something else. And that's why I think it's the education and training. So I think Dr. Fiona Buchanan in Adelaide has doing some research at the moment. They've interviewed, I think, 220 young people. and it's about intergenerational trauma. And overwhelmingly they've said there was a lack of family violence education in schools. So we've got to do something to change that. And it's a bit like, you know, consent training has to be taught in some schools. But also consent has become about sex.

And consent is actually about everything. It's about the way we behave with each other. It's about drag and alcohol. And yes, it is about sex. But it's also about peer pressure, you know. Do you want to go for a drink? No. Do you want to go for a drink?

No. Do you want to go for a drink? No. Oh, well, the boss is coming. Do you want to go for a drink? Oh, okay. So have you consented? Or have you not consented?

I think we sort of think, oh, consent is black and white. There's a lot of layers to it. So I think, I've always thought we spend all this time and energy. I remember when I was having my kids, breast or bottle feed. Are they crawling? Are they walking? You know, we've got walkers. We've got all sorts of tools and things that we use to get our children to do those things.

So at what point do we give them tools for conflict management? At what point do we teach them about consent? At what point do we teach them about being safe? Do you know what I mean? So we sort of, you know, we put a lot of time and energy into the physical development, but what about the mental and emotional development? At what point do we, you know, put resources into that? Mm-hmm.

And I can imagine you're never too young to start instilling some of that language, some of those communications. Absolutely, absolutely. But obviously pictured it. a good cognitive or emotional level. Yeah, it's got to be age appropriate. So, you know, and I remember my mom actually coming to my high school to teach protective behaviours. I was horrified. I can imagine. But, you know, we sort of had this, you know, it was there a lot at one point. And then it seems to have disappeared a bit. And now it's coming back. And again, I'm not putting it

all on schools and teachers, which is why part of what I'm doing is community forums, you know, going into organisations because if you're the CEO of an IT company and you come to my session, then hopefully you will take that home to your partner, to your children, to your, you know, when you're at a barbecue on Saturday night and someone says, hey mate, men are victims too, you can say, yes, absolutely they are. However, family violence is significantly gendered. You know, women are much more likely to be victim survivors and men are much more likely to be perpetrators. You know, if we arm enough people with that information to have those discussions, because, yes, we need to make sure that community services and family violence services can respond. But I think it's when you're at a party on a Saturday night and a mate pulls you up. You know, that's when things can actually happen. And we see those commercials on TV demonstrating that. But I think we need to actually teach people and give them the tools and give them the practical, you know, strategies to be able to manage it in that situation. Yeah. Have you got any exciting projects or programs coming up soon?

Look, I'm in the stage where I'm launching my training material online. That will be available for purchase. So that's really exciting. And, you know, very much, I suppose, in the, you know, development space and, you know, little projects along the way with specific organisations, which is really good. And, yeah, hopefully I'll have, I'm actually doing Child Safety, Victoria, child safety New South Wales, child safety, Victoria, New South Wales, border communities.

Because I think with states legislating a lot of this, you know, border communities can have significant issues with how you respond to different situations and they need to be, organisations on the border need to be across both. I mean, we saw that with COVID. People had no idea what they're supposed to do on the borders. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

So we've certainly, yeah, got that idea. So, yeah, I suppose I've got, you know, in the last week or two, quite a few opportunities have come up. So follow me on Instagram or go onto my website, Elvention, and watch this space. So in addition to your website, which I'll definitely put in the show notes, are there any other resources, any other listening, reading, viewing that you would recommend for people on this topic? Yes, definitely.

Can I give you my top four books? Perfect. A mesh in books at the moment, as opposed to articles. So look, you know, the first one is another day in the colony. but Chelsea Watergo and it's written by a First Nations person for First Nations people but for me it really you know I mean it says on the front confronting generous moving and insightful in terms of the First Nations people this was a really you know she's an academic at the University of Queensland and it was a really really good book so look I highly recommend it in terms of

understanding First Nations I suppose it was the way it was confronting for me I sort of got to the end and I thought, oh my God, I am a white colonist because, you know, the opportunities I have had have been because of colonisation. You know, my parents were able to buy land, were able to, you know, educate their children, were able to do a lot of things. And so, you know, I found it really insightful. So I think that's a must read. How many more women by Jennifer Robinson and Keina Jashida. And that's very much a sort of international look at what's happening in terms of the law and how it silences women. And it talks a bit about, you know, the Me Too movement and Johnny Depp Amber heard, but very much from a, what does he say about us as a society and what

does this say about the laws and the laws of different countries. So it's good from an international perspective. The whole story, which is about investigating sexual crime and past justice. And this is about Patrick Tidmarsh. And I remember he was working in the early 90s for the department when I was there and it's a very factual account of his work has predominantly been with adolescents displaying harmful sexualised behaviour and adults who have sexually offended and child exploitation and again it's a it's a really good book and it's about getting the whole story and about not victim blaming and why do we start our conversations with well what were you wearing what did you say what did you do why are we focusing on that as opposed to the

perpetrator and my final one is in control by Jane Moncton Smith. So she was a police officer and then became a psychologist in the UK. And she's written about the eight stage homicide timeline when it comes to family violence. And, you know, it's really interesting. She's got lots of stories and lots of practical. And it's a hard read because obviously, you know, it's talking about homicide. But even if I think about in terms of my, you know, the prevention space, you know, her sort of stage one is a history of stalking and control. Like people will. patterns continue. If you knew your new partner had a history of stalking and control the difference

that could make, and she talks a little bit about them looking at maybe making that public in some way. But I think it's about the biggest predictor of future behaviour is pattern and history. So, and that's again about if we can interrupt that pattern in history. And then stage two is the commitment whirlwind. And again, it's that, you know, flowers, chocolates, let's move in together really quickly. And I think I see that in a lot of relationships. And I think again, if we can interrupt that early, because then stage three is living with control. So that's when things really, and it's really, you know, there's eight stages. So there's five more that I haven't mentioned. But in those first three, once you're at that point of living with control, to try and get out of

that situation or the work that's required to then deal with that is actually quite significant. And, you know, there is a lot of resources out there for people on the internet as well. well and articles, etc. So, but they're my sort of top four books I could go on and on. But I've spent the last couple of months doing a lot of research. So do you get much of a chance to read anything that's not social work oriented? Yes, look, just for pleasure. Yeah, look, I do like to read.

I haven't sort of since I was last on holidays. And I think, you know, I need to get better at that. I need to get better at having my sort of boundaries in place. It's so hard when your interests are in this area as well. Yeah, exactly. podcasts and other things that I listen to, a psychology, social work, anything nerdy to do with that. Yeah, absolutely.

But I'm trying to sort of say, right, okay, you know, 9 to 5, 9 to 6, whatever my day looks like, you know, or I've got to function tonight. So I suppose it's important that I take some time off in between. I don't work on weekends at all, well, unless I do a shift. But generally. I don't, but sometimes. Yeah, yeah.

But I kind of do. Yeah, so it is really hard because I think particularly when you're passionate about something and, you know, I really want to change the way we see things. You know, it's kind of, you want to pursue that. But I think self-care is important and it is important to switch off a bit. Yeah. I don't know if you've heard of or seen. There was a short series that came out recently with SBS called Safe Home.

Yes, yes. It was set in Victoria and just incredibly raw and compelling. And, yeah, I had to eventually just turn it off because I would have just stayed up all night. watching it through in one go. But I just, yeah, huge trigger warnings really for anybody. But yeah, I just feel like that's almost compulsory viewing for anyone studying social work or in any way interested in this area. Absolutely.

Look, I think, you know, while it was a dramatic representation, it was quite a real representation of how control occurs, how embedded things are in people's relationships, the struggle for services to try and keep people safe. And what I think it did really well was your perception of who a perpetrator might be, you know. So I think they did that really well and that it could be anyone, any one of us could end up in this situation. So I think it did that really well.

I think the other thing worth watching too on Netflix is victim suspect. Okay. And it was very much about a particular area in the US where a number of women reported being sexually, assaulted and the police charged them with making a false report because they couldn't find the evidence. Again, just a really good representation of what can happen when victim survivors aren't believed, but also the weight that's put on the victim survivor to prove it. You know, and it's same in our court system. You know, if I accuse, you know, Tom of sexually assaulting me,

Tom can do nothing, say nothing, be nothing, and that's it. My entire life, my entire history, everything I said and did that day is under the microscope. How does that work? What does that say about how we value what's happened to women? So, you know, the victim suspect, it's American and it's more of a documentary, but it's as true here as I think it is in the US. Yeah, I'll have to check that out. Yeah, definitely.

Before we finish up, Eileen, is there anything that we have, talked about, about your experience or just anything in general that you want to talk about to do with how you got to where you are now and just social work in general? No, I think we've sort of covered everything I wanted to cover. And I think, I suppose it's just about going on your social work journey and going where it takes you, you know, and we are constantly learning and changing. And I think we have a fairly powerful way of being able to change the way things are and that we should continue to do that.

Yeah, I really can see how that journey has taken place with that sense of social justice to begin with the life experience that you and your family have had with volunteering and supporting other people and you have the opportunity to build on your personal and professional experience by really responding to those needs that you are seeing in the communities and partnering with agencies and charities that had a similar focus and similar values and you said that you were building a workplace of people that you choose to work with instead of being in a, say, government agency where you're thrown into a situation and you just have to make do with what you've got.

But also, you've done that instead of working in silo, which would be the other option when you're working for yourself. So you've built that workplace around you of those networks, those collaborative relationships, and you've put the right time and the right energy into that early intervention. work, which is always going to be ongoing, unfortunately. But what you're hoping is that eventually you will see those statistics shift. You will see changes in people's attitudes, changes to the way that people can respond

when they identify that something is not right or someone says something that's, you know, just aggravating the issue. So you said early intervention is everyone's responsibility. And absolutely, I think you're doing what you can within your power to make that change, which is so important. Yes, absolutely. Wonderful work. And I really look forward to seeing where it takes you, keeping an eye on your website and seeing what other training and education you come up with and hopefully how the business continues to grow. Exactly. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, it's been my pleasure. Thank you so much for your time. Okay, thanks.