Social Work Spotlight - Episode 96: Marie 2

Episode Date: November 10, 2023

In this episode I speak with Marie, an Accredited Mental Health Social Worker, Couples and Family Therapist, presenter, podcaster, and trainer, renowned for her expertise in the field of mental health and wellbeing. With a focus on normalising discussions around mental health, Marie equips audiences with the knowledge and tools to nurture their own mental wellbeing, helping to break down stigma and empower individuals to speak openly and confidently about mental health.Links to resources mentioned in this week’s episode:Marie’s business, The Threapy Hub - https://thetherapyhub.com.auMarie’s website - https://marievakakis.com.auMarie’s Instagram account - https://www.instagram.com/marievakakisThis Complex Life podcast - https://marievakakis.com.au/podcast/This episode's transcript can be viewed here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1j-wrrjj2DfuDwrP62mvVqTmMbthymnGWEhx4rL9rQsk/edit?usp=sharingThanks to Kevin Macleod of incompetech.com for our theme music.

I begin today by acknowledging the Gadigal people of the Eura Nation, traditional custodians of the land on which I record this podcast, and pay my respects to their elders past and present. I extend that respect to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people listening today. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples have an intrinsic connection to this land and have cared for country for over 60,000 years, with their way of life having been devastated by colonisation. Hi and welcome to Social Work Spotlight where I showcase different areas of the profession

in each episode. I'm your host, Yasmeen McKee Wright, and today's guest is Marie, an accredited mental health social worker, couples and family therapist, presenter, podcaster and trainer, renowned for her expertise in the field of mental health and well-being. With a focus on normalising discussions around mental health, Marie equips audiences with the knowledge and tools to nurture their own mental well-being, helping to break down stigma and empower individuals to speak openly and confidently about mental health. Welcome Marie, back to the podcast. So happy to have the opportunity to speak with you a second time about your work.

Yeah, it's awesome to be here. I love hearing all the different social worky stuff people are doing. Yeah, yeah. And for those who are new to the podcast and not regular listeners, I first met with Marie a little over a year ago for episode 62. And in that episode, we talked about your beginnings in the field, initially studying psychology and family therapy before going back to the drawing board in search of something with extra diversity. And you landed on a master's of social work. And so I'd encourage listeners to go back and take a listen to episode 62 because you go into a bit more detail around your experience in age care and homelessness and drug and alcohol and disability before creating and settling into your own.

private practice. So I guess that's kind of a primer and now we thought we'd get together again and see what you've been up to recently, what you're working on and how you stay motivated through all that. Oh, so many. Yeah, that'll be interesting. How I do stay motivated, I'm not sure. Perhaps a bit of a loaded question at this point, but yeah, you've got so much going on. So I'm just really keen to hear a little bit more about what's new since our last chat. Yeah, awesome. Look forward to it. Great. So I'll let you take the floor. Where do you want to start? I think I can probably can work a little bit backwards from where I'm at now. At the moment, so I have a private practice called the Therapy Hub and we have quite a few accredited mental health social workers on our team, which is really lovely. We mostly work with adolescents and through that I also run training and have developed an online course called connected teams. And I thought it would be really, interesting to share that diverse, I guess. It's almost like a portfolio career, but in the one

place to show people that you're not limited by any one thing. And while it's not always easy, and I've had to learn everything from like course creation to navigating different technology for a court, like there's all these extra skills that are learnable. And you know, someone out there, that's their bread and butter and they know how to teach it to you. So that's really awesome. that we can serve our community in a number of different ways that either it's something we're interested in, that maybe fits around our schedule or our energy flow, or even just the modality we want to work in, whether that be face-to-face in a large training room online. Like there's actually quite a lot that's available.

And I know that when I was first starting, a lot of the things I would listen to were podcasts about private practice. one of the ones that I first got started with was called Selling the Couch. And Melvin was interviewing different people who had done different things. And that really gave me ideas of how can I do those things, but still serve the target group that I like to work with, which is young people. So that's who I see mostly in therapy. I do see adults and some couples as well. And then through that family therapy background,

a lot of the work I enjoy doing is the systemic work. So thinking about educating teachers. so I go into schools and run mental health first aid. I run tuning into teens, which is a Melbourne University researched kind of parenting course, and then I have my own connected team. So there is a lot of room to be creative if you want. If all of that sounds like way too much work,

and it's like absolutely not, you can just see clients. That's totally fine too, but it really does. I wanted to highlight that you can do quite a lot and you can have a lot of variety in your work if you are interested and excited by that. stuff. Yeah, so you kind of, I feel like there's an environment of constant learning and evolving. So initially you had to work out how to develop a practice, even just how to develop that framework, how to tie in your values and create a brand. And then what you're doing now is

building your capacity to deliver more content, more education, more support, instead of focusing just on the therapy side, which you obviously love, but being able to support other people and create that content that's really relevant to those specific populations that you have an interest in. Yeah, and I think we probably know how to do that better than we give ourselves credit for. I think it's either not thinking that we are expert enough to put it out there. And one of my business coaches sort of used this saying, you don't have to be an expert, you're just a contributor. And so it could be that I say something in a slightly different way

or with an analogy that relates to someone or with a story. And it's my perspective on something or it's my take or my slant. So that really took the pressure off of I don't have to be an expert. And sometimes I think when does that happen? Like I do have a social degree, a graduate diploma in youth and adolescent mental health, a family therapy master's, the psychology degree. I'm like, when will I feel like I can be an expert? I don't know if that will ever come because then you're like,

well, someone else has a PhD and they've written a dozen books. they've got like seven kids of their own. So I think it's taken that pressure of saying it's a contribution and I've got something to add. And if people like it, they will take it up. And if they don't, I can tweak it and revisit that. Yeah, I think working through that imposter syndrome is so hard because I feel like you can never really be an expert.

Yes, you can have a great amount of experience and knowledge around something. But as you said, it's your take on that something and you never stop learning because I feel like once you stop learning, then you've kind of lost your mojo, you've lost your drive, and you just feel like you're doing the same thing over and over again. So you're keeping up fresh. And I think it works for me in the season that I'm in. I know for some people, you know, if they've had a life stage change or they've recently had children, they might think I don't have extra brain space to learn lots more now. I want to go into work, do what I do, and then go home. And so it does offer that flexibility of I can get as much or as little out of it as I want.

And I'm feeling particularly enthusiastic, which happens probably too much. And I overcommit to, you know, online courses and trainings and workshops, then I can do that. And there are other times where, you know, maybe during lockdown was an example where even though I had all this free time, my body was like, no, it just, you can't absorb any more information. So I think that's kind of seeing it as maybe seasonal or really flexible has been nice. Yeah. And has creating a bit more of a buffer in terms of more people on your staff and more people

who can offer therapy is that you'll go to in terms of being able to have a balance and delegate some of those tasks or some of those cases to someone so that you can then dedicate that time to the extra interesting stuff that you're working on? It hasn't been, I mean, it depends what you mean by buffer. It's probably more financially viable if I was just working on my own because a lot of the hours that I spent in the business, sometimes it could be, you know, another 20 hours a week on top of the normal 9-to-5 aren't revenue-generating roles.

So it could spend a whole day, like today I've got, you know, a meeting with the lawyer and accountant. All of these things aren't revenue generating and will cost me probably thousands of dollars. to get all these things kind of reviewed and checked and, you know, taxes done. So sometimes it feels like that's not exactly. It guess it depends what the worth it is, what I'm looking for. For me, I like having a team.

And so even though private practice is really lonely, I think having people maybe to have lunch with or see in the morning or a group supervision, it was kind of creating a practice of like-minded people and having variety for clients to choose from when they present with their needs that we can say, look, actually we have several people that might be a good fit. So for this stage, it feels good. It might grow. It might shrink.

I guess I can choose that. Yeah. And do you have to still keep really vigilant with the days that you do therapy just to keep everything separate? Yeah. I do have kind of my set therapy days and I try not to do anything else on those days. And then I have days where I don't go to the clinic and I just do all the other stuff from home so that there's a real distinction. I did trial doing some like one day a week of telehealth, but then I felt my brain couldn't separate the space. Like I've associated being home with non-client work. And so unless I'm

really like maybe in winter and it's really cold. I'm like I just want to go home. Even if I have telehealth for the last couple of the day, I'll just stay at work and my brain sort of knows that's when I do therapy. That's when I do learning about therapeutic techniques or case conceptualization. And then when I come home, it's more business strategy, social media, course creation, that kind of work. So it works relatively well. It just can stretch over a longer part of the day because there's no commute time and the device is right here and it's so easy to just keep working. Yeah. So in addition to running the online courses, you've got the parenting groups.

Do you have to travel far for that? is it all relatively Melbourne CBD and yeah how much time can you really dedicate to that? I run one at the moment just local and if I do have to travel I quote that into the price so that even my travel time is part of that. So I try to consider those as billable hours. So it's a two and a half hour course and a half hour travel time. So I'll try not to because they're run in the evening. So let's say the one I've got at the moment, six to eight 30. I'll try not to start work till 11 or 12 to try and kind of manage that.

Otherwise, if I do start my normal time, it ends up being a 12-hour day. So it's trying to, just like you would if you work for somewhere else, take it as kind of time in lieu or flexi time and try and wiggle the day around that. Otherwise, I get exhausted. Yeah, that makes sense. And what's been the main feedback from running those groups? because it's always hard when you're delivering something for the first time. You kind of have an idea of the impact it will have and that it's reaching the right people,

but sometimes in reality it's slightly different. Yeah, and part of the way I get feedback, it's not just having, I mean, I do have that sort of sheet your hand at the end, but I also, when it's a multiple week course, I use it as a way to check in about someone's kind of learning. So at the start of the next session, I might. sort of say what was a takeaway from last week or what's stuck with you or what did you reflect on. And that's a really good kind of as we go feedback, almost like you were trying to do in therapy, like you're checking in constantly around, is this working, is this meeting your needs?

Like that feedback informed treatment, it just doesn't have to be on a like cut scale of zero to 10. Did I meet, like it doesn't have to be that formal. But some of the things that I've got here, people are saying over the course of the last few weeks, we've seen a change in behaviours and had fewer arguments. Someone else that I was struggling with children and teenagers fighting with each other and with parents. I've learned to be more patient and talk more specifically about emotions. I wanted to know I was on the right track with my kids

and this course taught me it was okay. I learned patience and how to listen. And when I run things like mental health first aid, a lot of people will say, I just, I wish I knew this sooner or I wish everybody would do this. So they're pretty tried and tested programs, I guess, over time. I think having that regular check-in also helps them to solidify what they've learned in between sessions or what they've developed in terms of knowledge.

Because I can imagine they go home, someone asks them how it was, and they haven't really had a good chance to think about it. So that's given them an opportunity and a starting point to then have discussions with their people afterwards. Or even it can be really amazing to see what lands for some. someone because it might be a video that I've seen 30 times that is completely new to them. And so it's really, it's so hard to know what someone's really going to take away from a workshop or a course, just like when we're participants or something, you know, we don't know. That information might be 100% new and you have no idea what that person was talking about

until that course. So it's really interesting to kind of, to see the feedback. So I was looking through it actually last night and just trying to get a sense. of what people were enjoying. Yeah, cool. And you're also working on a book. Tell me a bit about that. The program I created is called Connected Teens,

and it's actually up for, it's got a final kind of cohort going through in October. So if people listening are interested, you can check that out on my website. So it's pretty much combining act and family systems. So it's really helping parents navigate their own values and how that impacts their parenting. So thinking about the system,

and how parents are influenced by how they were parented, and that obviously then impacts how they parent. So I'm really trying to bring that into a values-based model and looking about like cognitive diffusion and kind of separating from some of those thoughts, but really recognizing that, you know, if you've got a real thing about respect and that was how your parents treated you

and you were, you know, always told off for not being respectful, you might then tell your kids off and feel really disrespectful if they exhibit a certain behavior. So really trying to get parents to understand what they value and how they're parenting that might accidentally not achieve that. So sometimes people will say, you know, for example, they'll yell at their kids to stop yelling. And the irony is that doesn't actually teach them how to communicate without yelling. That's sort of teaching them, it's okay to yell if you're the biggest stronger person in power. So they don't actually learn to not yell. You might scare

the bejesus out of them, but they haven't learned how to communicate without yelling because you've role-modeled your communication by yelling. So some of it can be quite confronting, but that's sort of that program. And then the book is essentially the program, but in written form. So as I created the program and I did the sort of my notes for each of the slide decks, I've been putting that into a book and going back through, I've been interviewing some parents and getting some case studies together. So that'll still be a little while. away. I want to run the course a few more times and use that feedback and more case studies to put into the book. And I picture of being something like a kind of part workbook, but with a little bit

of information. So similar content to what someone would get if they attended. But it's just in a different format for those who like books. Yeah. Nice. I feel like so much of the work you're doing could have a huge impact on an academic level as well as a practical level. And even some of the stuff you're writing, like it could easily be translated to an academic journal or, I don't know, a master's or a PhD or something like that, you know, in your spare time. Is that anything that you've perhaps considered, like actually writing for a different audience? Potentially, I've submitted the course for a couple of symposiums and conferences to kind of talk about that. So we'll see if any of those applications become successful. At this point, I don't know.

want any formal study but I'm open to it if someone listening wants to offer me a really big scholarship for a PhD I might consider it but I think I can still reach quite a wide audience and part of what has been difficult you know I did a research project in my MSW is not much of that research gets translated into direct practice and so some really great stuff's happening and only other academics read it or it gets peer reviewed and it doesn't have applicability so maybe I'm doing it in the opposite way where I'm making it applicable. I'm looking at research. I'm looking at journal articles.

I'm creating some case studies. But I'm bringing it straight out as it's kind of happening. And that might be helpful to in a different way. So I'm definitely open to different things. Yeah, like you said, in my spare time, I don't know. It's hard to know what to prioritize because a lot of people don't care about the academic side as much. They just want something that's relatable, that's digest. that's in a format that works for their lifestyle and that's reputable. And if it gets too

jargony, if it gets too clean and crisp or too edited, I don't think people engage with it as well. So I'm really trying to balance the user experience with having a really robust product. Yeah, yeah. And I can see how it could easily tip over to not enjoyable if you've just got this task and you're working on it for a long period of time and it's harder to see the advantages or the impact of it, whereas with your programs, you've got a little bit more of an immediate feedback loop. And it can be, yeah, it can be really current because if I was trying to get this done as a research project, I would have, let's say I started three years ago, the context would be different. So by the time I produce something, I might still be referring to lockdown. And people are like,

oh, now we're worried about this new app that didn't exist three years ago. So I'd need it to be a little bit more fluid to keep up with examples that are relevant for now, even though the bigger pieces of work around parental values and understanding yourself being able to sprinkle into that relevant information that's current I think is really helpful for people because imagine if I was running a parenting course that was done 20 years ago I'm talking about my space and my Nokia 3210 people like just have no idea what she's talking about like even though sometimes the idea of setting boundaries might be the same or the values of parents and the family might be the same. same. If people were going to look at me think she was way out of touch, she has no idea of just talking

about. Yeah. And look, even in a state-by-state context, because Melbourne was hit much harder by lockdowns, and I imagine there's a lot of content in your programs and courses that would refer to that and people's responses and how people managed during that time as families, as parents. So, yeah, it would be very contextual. Absolutely. Yeah. I love that there's that. also the seeking the regular feedback and checking what lands and doing, I guess, your own kind of research to ensure that you're on track and making an impact. Is there anything else that you're

working on at the moment that we haven't had a chance to chat about? So I'm running a free series of webinars for parents or teachers. So we've got one on school refusal, self-harm and one's called My Teen Won't Talk to Me, so really around that connection bit. So I was trying to do sort of won a term. And that just didn't happen. So I'm just pumping out three in October and just kind of getting them out. So there's that piece there just to keep people engaged with that world and giving them some bite-size information. On Instagram, I've been starting.

I'm only a few days in. So doing little reels called My Teen Won't or Why Doesn't My Team. So I've got all these, a list of questions that I've got that people have kind of said or commented on. And I'm just answering one at a time. So it could be like, why doesn't my teen talk to me? or why do they play with their phone at dinner? So really trying to give people those little two, three minute answers. There's the podcast, which is now called This Complex Life.

So it's still wherever you would have found the inside social work one. But it's a slightly different conversation. It's more around the themes or the particular area of specialty rather than someone's employment or kind of journey to get to where they're at. And as part of our practice, I'm developing a series of training. training for people in private practice. So it's more for in-house staff and for recruitment as people come to work at the therapy hub. So if people are interested, we're recruiting, come along. But it's really breaking down some of those basics. So how we onboard clients,

we've called it like our first three session structure, how to talk about informed consent, how to manage your time and work through things and get your workflow. There's self-care, burnout prevention, there's bringing families into the room. there's being a neurodiversity affirming practitioner, there's being an LGBTQIA plus affirming practitioner. So they're little modules that people have access to as part of their, I guess, being a team member of the therapy hub and I'm looking to push them out publicly for purchase as well. So really helping people have a more structured onboarding process. But also I keep getting a lot of questions of how can we access that or where can we go.

So I thought, I'll create it. Maybe people will find that helpful to translate what they learned into private practice or to upskill in areas that aren't very specific, like DBT or CBT or ACT. It's how you are in the space and what you do with that knowledge in that sort of 50-minute session. And I know that for me that was a piece that I found really difficult. And I was like listening to like Esther Perel podcast and watching like videos on YouTube of like counseling sessions and like oh how do i do informed consent do i just sit there and here's a piece of paper or like i kind of didn't know how to execute what i had learned in that session and then it would be

like 55 minutes i'm like oh my god i've started another topic and i've got to get them out five minutes ago what do i do so some of that stuff i'm i'm kind of creating as little workshops and is the new iteration of the podcast is the intended audience a lot of clients, families, parents, or is it more geared towards social workers or therapists or a bit of both? It's probably more for clients, but something that I think therapists can use. So for example, I've done one episode on worry. A therapist listening to it might find some analogies or a little bit of psycho ed that they find helpful. And it might also be an episode that they share with a client if their client is dealing with worry and wants to use the strategies involved.

I've got another one about why don't people come to couples therapy. That might be helpful if someone's listening, thinking, oh, that might be what's happening for my partner. But it could also be something that a therapist can listen to and think that might explain the hesitation in getting people through the door or why I'm suggesting it to my client and they're struggling with their partner. So I'm still interviewing a lot of therapists, mental health, social workers, and kind of people who work in that space.

But the themes, the way I'm asking the questions, instead of it being, like, in the first season, I interviewed Caroline Burroughs about EMDR, and we talked about how to become an EMDR therapist. What are the processes involved? What's kind of, what is EMDR with a clinician in mind? Now on the second version of the podcast, it's what to expect if you're in an EMDR therapy session,

what questions to ask, what to know, what do you need to know as a client, So there is still an overlap. It's still in that therapy, self-improvement space, but less about the journey to learn that skill and more how to teach it or share that with people. And what are some other topics or themes that you've got coming up? Yeah, I've got one on late diagnosed ADHD,

so that'll be a two-part series where I interview an ADHD coach about ADHD, and then she interviews me about what's the difference between a coach and therapist and how I would work what I would do in therapy and how that's different from a coach. I've got an episode coming up on grief. I've got men's depression. I did one for Are You Okay Day on suicide. I've done a couple on various sort of mental health challenges of anxiety. I've got quite a few, yeah, different things coming up and I'll rearrange them.

And then I think I might do some on how to get ready for therapy. Like we've released a really beautiful journal through the therapy hub that we give to clients. It's how to get the most out of therapy and it's different prompts that someone can use in anticipation of therapy, like what to ask your therapist, how to even work out your goals, what to expect, how to articulate yourself. Like it's got a lot of activities. So I might even do an audio kind of recording to match that journal as well. So it's really trying to value add because I think the more I learned about therapy, the more I realize most people have no idea what it involves, whether we're going to like peer into their brain and like burn some sage or wave some sticks around.

They have no idea. They really don't. And so if I can demystify that process, if I can normalize it and if I can give people some insights and some tools of what to expect or what questions to ask or they might hear a story that they relate to and it gives them language to describe their experience, I think that's really worth it. And even I get so many questions around what's a counselor, what's a psychologist, what's a therapist, what's a psychotherapist? Like there are so many different terms to potentially explain a similar type of treatment and it can get very confusing for people because someone will say you should see a psychotherapist. But why? Like what does this person got to offer me? Yeah and I think it really depends because each of those professionals have an overlap if you looked on like a Venn diagram of what they do. and then they do some very different things.

So that base degree stops being relevant the more experience somebody gets because then they get really niche. Like, you know, you could have, I don't know, a PhD clinical psychologist or a psychiatrist who might be an expert in working with child trauma, but you put them in alcohol and drug services and they might have no idea how to work with that population. And you might have a peer worker who is excellent and knows that service and knows the work and does really great work.

So the degree becomes less and less relevant, I think, as people gain experience because it's all those additional trainings, supervision, what you start to focus on, that's really helpful. And so when people get hooked on the title, they might really miss finding someone that is good for them. Yeah. Do you ever get a chance to slow down, like towards the end of the year? Do you look forward to time off?

do you have to force yourself to take time off? What does that look like for you? Force is probably not the right word because I do love time off, but I need to block it out. Otherwise things creep in. So I've gone through my diary now and I've blocked out like a monthly RDO for myself. And that feels really good. And so I've blocked that out on my calendar.

It's sort of taken up. So I'm like, okay, I have that to look forward to. I close the practice for those kind of two weeks over Christmas. So at least I know there's nothing that I can. do if it burns down the fire brigade will take care of it but like there's nothing more for me and i tend to go hiking or camping so i do a lot of things that take me away from digital things like i'm surrounded by i mean people can't see but i have like two screens my laptop my iPad my phone my microphone bright light like so i like to get away from that and be completely free and then i have to

pencil things in like i was actually having supervision with the clinician yesterday and they were new to private practice and they were struggling with that balance because the day can creep out and they're like, oh, but if I just write one more report or if I can just squeeze this in and then they're like, but that's six billable hours and then on top of that is all the other stuff, they were finding they were really exhausted and we were looking at their diary and one of the suggestions I had was to block in the important things first. Like for me, it's like today I went to yoga before this recording, I'll go to the gym at the end of the day and I book them in so that it forces me to leave. It holds me accountable. So maybe it's not force is the right word, but it helps me

prioritize what I want to get done. Because if I work an extra hour, I'm not going to feel probably like I've achieved anything. But if I stop and go to the gym, I can always come back and finish something off, but at least it's given me that chance to get away to do what I need to do. You know, I have a dog that kind of nudges me. He kind of knows when the sun's going down. It's walk time so that holds me accountable too. So I like to work in like little sprints and I think I've noticed my energy fluctuates. So I might do like a 60 hour week and then I might do a 30 hour week. Like I just have to, as long as the client works prioritize, I'm happy to work in in little sprints. Yeah. You said before you love having a team. You love supporting a team. How does,

I guess, having your experience and your training, and social work. What sort of skills and capacity do you think you bring to that team environment as a leader? I think it's definitely a willingness to learn and to try. So just like I learned to do therapy and have supervision for therapy, I'm learning to be a leader. So I'll read books. I'll listen to podcasts. I have business coach. I'll talk about human resource. Maybe not challenges is the right word, but, you know, I really want to get it right and I'm really willing to learn and take on feedback and then putting the things in place to role model that authenticity. I don't always get it right, but I'm prepared to keep trying.

And I'll deal with my own, you know, my own stuff in my therapy. I deal with client work in supervision. And then I have peers and coaches for leadership. So I think I can role model that willingness to keep learning, to keep trying. and also thinking about the system. Like one lecture that probably is what got me into my first job. It was a guest lecture from Brian Lippman who founded Winringham and he came in and he made this thing around, you give your best hours of the day,

for the best days of the week and the best years of your life to work. We want work to be a good place. And I was like, that's so true. Like there might be realities that I can't meet for people in private practice. there are challenges there that limits what I can offer, but they can be kindness, there can be camaraderie, there can be social things, there's flexibility, like there are things that we can do to let people know,

I give you a good workplace, we pick clients that really work for you, you get to do great work, and then we all work together, and there's a level of risk that comes with starting a business, so there are things that I have to consider behind the scenes that may or may not be known to people, but it can still be a nice place.

Mm-hmm. No, I love that leading with kindness. I think it says a lot. But, yeah, I guess what I'm hearing also is a real desire to be mindful of that balance, so you don't burn out, you don't lose that passion. And so being able to model that to your team is really good. So you're creating a culture, an environment where people feel as though they can also do that. That's what they're seeing in you.

I hope so. It's really hard. Like I feel like gut-wrenchingly guilty if I call in sick. And I'm like, what's I going to say? People are going to think I'm slacking off. They don't know what I'm doing at home. And then other times I'm like, I'm really sick. I can't do my work.

So sometimes I really struggle with that. And I can be deliberating on this decision for, you know, a few hours. And chances I know one gives a crap. And also it demonstrates to them that they can take a day off if they're not feeling well as well. I hope so, but yeah, so sometimes we, I definitely can catastrophize or kind of think about things and someone's like, I didn't even notice you weren't here. I'm like, oh, I'm glad my presence is felt. Yeah. Marie, I thank you so much for sharing all of this. I love that you've been making this

information and the education so accessible. So you've provided it in a variety of modalities and formats you've got things for people who love to read for people who love to watch for people who love to listen so it's creating that information in ways that can really resonate with people and from the sounds of things makes it really easy for them to pinpoint and find exactly what they're looking for so i think that's wonderful and i really look forward to seeing what you come up with next because there's always something exciting and new awesome yeah thank you and i'll give you some links to those things that people can find that journal might be a popular one Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Please do. Thank you. Thanks again for your time and lovely chatting with you and yeah, keep us updated.

We'll do. Thanks for joining me this week. If you would like to continue this discussion or ask anything of either myself or Marie, please visit my anchor page at anchor.fm slash social work spotlight. You can find me on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter, or you can email SW Spotlight Podcast at gmail.com. I'd love to hear from you. Please also let me know if there is a particular topic you'd like discussed, or if you or another person you know would like to be featured on the show. Next episode's guest is Patricia. Born in Zambia, Patricia has qualifications in social work and social policy, and her experience spans working in government and non-government organisations and co-authoring a chapter of a

clinical handbook in adolescent medicine. Her experience as a mother of a child with a terminal illness inspired her to write a book, and she's now working on a follow-up novel. I release a new episode every two weeks. Please subscribe to my podcast so you're notified when this next episode is available. See you next time.