Soder - 125: Hidden ingredients with John Oliver | Soder Podcast | EP 123

Episode Date: March 17, 2026

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Bell Air Direct, insurance, simplified. Conditions apply. Hey, everybody. Hope you enjoy the episode today. Golden Retriever of Comedy Tour, still going strong. This week, Dallas, you sold out, you sweet, sweet, beautiful city. Houston, we're going to be there Friday, Oklahoma City on Saturday. Dan Soder.com for tickets.

And the tour keeps moving along. Huntington Beach, we added a show in Long Island. Dan Soder.com for those. And then I will see you in Charlotte, Durham, Cleveland, Columbus, the cities that keep on coming. Dan Soder.com, all the shows are listed. Go buy tickets. Before we taped this hour, I hope you can see it.

This has been easily the greatest tour time on the road I've ever had in my life. So come check out these shows, Dan Soder.com. Enjoy the episode. John Oliver was really cool. Also a huge garbage time fan. We didn't get it on camera, but he popped when he saw Katie's hat, and that made me very happy.

My dog has this favorite treat that's like a brain game for her. We just start recording. It's a, my father-in-law bought her this, it's like a ball that you put a treat in, and then they figure out how to lick the treat. It's great for dogs. They love it.

Like a brain game? Is that kind of improving? Yeah, it like it stimulates her in a way. We live in an apartment. She doesn't have a backyard. She has to find ways so that she's not like I want to jump out of this fucking window. And you get to get a sense of whether your dog is, I'm going to eat all of this.

I'm going to find a way to digest whatever this is to get to the center. It's pure primal motivation of her going, I'm going to get this treat. This is the most delicious thing on the planet. So we loved it. My father-in-law bought it. We're like, Mike, this is great. you know, you refill it.

The problem is it sounds like a truck stop blowjob. So when you're in the room with her, all you hear is like, and I, you know, I was very excited you're coming on the podcast, and I was doing a little, all right, what do I do with Myrtle during the podcast? I don't want her bothering people. And I go, I'll give her a treat. And then we're going to get you. And I just hear her like, and I'm like, I can't have that as the background noise of me and John Oliver talking.

Because when you're that specific about a reference, that is not something you can ever forget. You can't forget that. And that'll stay with you. I'm talking about a working truck stock. I'm talking about a lot lizard. Before they automated the trucking industry. I'm talking at its peak. Can you please deep dive into what's going to happen to lot lizards when AI would automate a truck?

It's going to be a problem. There's going to be a period of adjustment. I need you doing 35 on lot lizards. Like in any industry, there will be a period of transition. and you need to take care of the baseline workers. They're not expendable. That's the thing. These women can't drink oil.

That's going to kill them. You can't have them sucking off robot truck drivers. They'll die. That oil will erode their esophagus, their stomach. They will die. You have to, it's like any workforce they need to be protected. This is why unions exist. This is, hello.

Hello, unions. I'm tired of saying it. Where are you, unions? You protect the hookers. They've always protected the hookers. The barnacle on the ship of unions are our sex workers. Don't tell me that the oldest profession in the world cannot survive automated trucking. Because I don't think that's going to be true.

Could you imagine if sex workers actually unionized and became like as strong as the teamsters? They've tried. Like there have been moves towards it. Yeah. I wonder if only fans put the money in a place where they go, we really have to. unionize this. I would think. Maybe. Maybe.

Because that's what unionizes anything. When a lot of money comes into it. Like with stand-ups, right? Like when they tried it in L.A. And they tried it here too. It didn't work. It didn't work at all. Because here's what they didn't,

just like sex workers. Yes. There's always a comic willing to take less. That's the problem. You are dealing with two groups with a lot in common. The Venn diagram of sex workers and comedians. Both think that the other group is not an ideal way to earn a living?

Both are right and wrong in equal measure. Nothing will hurt your confidence more than just a streetwalker in Indianapolis going, what do you do? That's right. 50 every year. I heard that set was rough last night. Hey, hey, hey, hey. We're both standing outside a steak and shake, but only one of us is going in for a frisco

melt. Yeah, it is, that's, I would say, my problem with the stand-up of the last 15 years where how many people over-inflated its importance. Oh, how do you mean? Like people going like, no, the world needs standard. Oh, my God. That is, sure, that's an overinflation well past bursting point. That's what I mean.

It's like, no, they don't. It's never been a need stand up. Most of the time, we were just there as a way before we got executed. Yes, that's right. You don't see cave paintings and a guy standing at the side saying, what is up with those mammoths? He's like, fire, bad. And other, other, other, other, other, fucking other cavemen.

I've gone, this is heck. I've seen the fire bad. We all know that. You've just got the confidence to say it to people. Oh, yeah. The sky God chose you. Sure, sure, sure. The industry.

Yorn. The saber tooth. When you, last week tonight, you know, I mean, I've known, I got to do your stand-up show, which was great. Yeah. Which was, thank you for that. Of course. I think New York City, there's a generation of New York City stand-up comedians that genuinely, in fact, you know who I was on the phone with today?

Nate Bargettsey. and he said, John Oliver got it before a lot of people. How so? About his stand-up. People weren't booking him to do stand-up on TV. And you put Nate on. And I think that was like, that's what I mean. There's a whole generation of us where I think Comedy Central might have not really

warmed the idea of us doing a lot of sets. Well, sure. And it was a push at that quote. It was not always an easy sell. Yeah. With comedy show. I remember in that first season, I think they had some pushback to Maria Bamford being on.

I think, if we're going to argue about this, we're about to have some really rough arguments. Because this is, there is no discussion to be had here. Well, what I liked about it is a lot of the times, and it's so different now because there is no industry or the stand-up industry has fallen to like people doing YouTube and making their own. Right.

Where there really isn't that person that goes, there isn't the Caesar's thumb. There isn't the, yes, they can be on TV, no, they can't be on TV. What you did and what I loved about the show and being a part of the show was it was unrestrictive in a way that late nights weren't. Yeah, for sure. That was always great about the Edinburgh Festival in the same way because all the international festivals, there is a seize of thumb involved.

Like you get invited to Montreal. I think that barely functions as a festival in the true sense of that word, right? Melbourne, much closer to like that festival atmosphere, but still curated internationally on a large house. There is still a person saying yes or no. Edinburgh, it is an open door policy and you'll get all the good and all the bad that comes with that and the bad makes everything better. Now, I got to do my first fringe in 2019 and the advice I got from every comedian was go watch shows. Yeah. Because there are going to be times where you feel so insecure and

horrible. And then you're going to be times where you're like, I don't think we're in the same field where you just watch it and you go, what did I sit through? Yeah. But it was something that I had been under exposed to UK comedy. And what I saw there really opened my eyes to like, it's kind of the way that New York used to shit on L.A. all the time when I moved here, we're like, L.A., they suck. They don't write jokes.

And then Colin Quinn was like, they perform their asses off. Yeah. And you don't appreciate it. And then you see it and you go, oh, they're way better performers than we are. Right. And they should be.

They're where TV and films are made. Sure. It makes sense. That's right. We're in a tight room writing jokes. Yes. In New York City. And I think that the extreme on the other side of that is what was happening in the UK, certainly there, where there is almost no polish to a fault.

It's almost like some jagged pieces of wood passing themselves off as shelves there. It was one time Katie and I were at a concert in Brooklyn and we were looking for a restaurant and we went to this place that looked like a very nice restaurant. And we said, hi, can we see your food menu? And the guy gave us a menu and went, I want to let you know all our food is fish and cans. And we were like, why would we eat here? Why, you're just going to hand us a fucking king of the sea and then I got to drain it? Like, what is this? Just push a grade C rating across the table.

It's crazy. They go, if it's sick, it's really your fault, you opened a bad can. But I had a feeling like that when I went to the UK and I was like, oh, you guys are just putting raw materials on stage. Now some of those people, you're like, that might be one of the most talented people I've ever seen in my life. People that can hold a room. Yes.

And also it becomes like a part of like a biological. clock that you do Edinburgh each year. So the idea is you make an hour. Yeah. Ditch it. Make an hour again. If you're not better in five years, this was not the field for you. Well, there are also people that you see it. And then there's parts of me like where you're like, I wish you would have three years

with that hour. Oh, for sure. Because there's, because you're like blown away. But you leave going like, I left coming back knowing a whole lot more people of being like, oh, I think my relationship with stand up was fundamentally changed by seeing all those shows. Definitely. And I think it becomes, there's different ways to treat it and it's different ways it's being treated. Either as a launching pad, it can function for a very few people for that.

But it will definitely get your learning curve steeper. And there's nothing you want more when you're starting to have comedy than that. You just want to get better, faster. Yes. And it is a speed run on you running an hour. Michelle Wolf, though, because her and Michael Che were the two people I was closest to that had done it. And she was like, when you come back, you're going to feel like a superhero. And I came back.

And the first set I did, I was like, oh, my God. Because UK audiences listen. There's a weird thing that they do that fucks you up as an American. Whereas Americans, you're fighting, when you come up in the clubs here, you're fighting chicken wings, drink specials, buckets of beer. Yes. You guys don't fight buckets of beer. Yes.

But your audiences are going, see it out. I remember reading about, what do you call it, the check? Check spot. That's how I came up here. That's how I made my bones in New York. Yeah, that really does put you in your place as a performance saying, let's clear these checks before you finish. So if you can allow for the transaction taking place,

that is the bedrock of what we're getting here. A full transaction. A full transaction. You're bringing American Express in a Visa MasterCard. They're getting involved. You might be splitting a check at a table. Dude, I can't tell you, John, how many times I watched people split like three buckets of beer and it was me just bombing in front of Patrice O'Neill

when he's waiting to go up. This is the thing, though, isn't it? Like you say, this goes back to you saying, people putting stand up on a pedestal, like, this is the most important profession. Really? No, really? I'm not sure other key professions

are dealing with a check spot. No one is going, hey, as we plan our invasion of Venezuela, I want you all to look at your cable bills. I've got all your cable bills. I don't think we have a bucket of this. And then what's funny is now, even with the check spots.

Now comedy clubs are doing anything where they're going, put your phone in a bag. So now we're watching the American public education system fail in real time when people have forgotten long division. Oh, sure. Because they don't have their phones and they're going, 40 divided by four. You go divided by four.

Come on. We're standing at it. It's just a decimal point over. Guys, what is this? That's where the disappointment lies. That's where I could have told you our educational system was on the rocks 15 years ago. Where I go, I'm watching the math in the room.

This isn't... There you go. There's stand-up functioning as the canaries in the coal mine or the observers of the canaries. Yeah. And this thing, if you can't slide the decimal point,

we're in trouble as a society. We are the lunatic that runs into the saloon. When that solar flare knocks out electronics, the purge is not going to take a business day. But I will tell you how much we can split it by. I'll show you the old school division way. of doing that. I mean, I think, oh, the weather's getting warm.

Somewhere between, you know, it's getting not short-sleeved shirt, but it's getting like, this is nice. It's getting nice. Well, guess what? You want the food to match that. Winter, you want some thick soups. You want some heavy meals. And then it gets light out.

And you're like, dude, I forgot. I'm almost going to be in a bathing suit here. Maybe I should clean it up. Maybe go no refined sugars, no artificial sweeteners. You know, you need, quality functional ingredients. That's why you get Factor Meals. Always fresh, never frozen, ready in about two minutes.

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subscription purchase. So make healthier eating easy with Factor. Guys, I'm not going to lie. I don't know how to buy clothes. I don't think I've ever known how to buy clothes. I see people wear clothes and I go, I think that would be cool. And then I put it on and I go, what the hell was I thinking? I just want to feel confident in the way that I look in my style without the work. So I know you've been scrolling those websites looking for something. simple nice pair of jeans but you know what you get stitch fix stitch fix is a way to get the clothes that you want you get a fix box with clothes that actually fit and make sense for your life if you're dressing for the work week for weekends whatever you want it saves you time you look great

and feel confident in what you're wearing so get started today at stitchfix dot com slash soda to get $20 off your first order that's stitch Fix.com slash soda. Go get some new threads, dude. When you go from the Daily Show to last week tonight, and you start doing these in-depth pieces, did you watch the people around you, like start recommending things that they want you to see?

Oh, you mean like recommending stories? Or like recommending like someone, like your uncle being like, hey, what's up with this bill? Take this apart. I will never forget this. I was doing stand-up somewhere, and this woman came up on a plane, so I've got an idea for a show.

That is the thing where you think, what exactly are we doing here? You should really look into child protective services. And like my instinct is, I don't know, man, that's real dark. She starts talking about it, like three minutes later, and I'll look into that. Also, that is such a,

I need to hear more, because which angle are you coming from? Because they took my kid. And they shouldn't have taken my kid and, you know. I don't think. You want a story. How are you smoking on the plane? Yeah, she goes,

oh, I got a whole theory. I got names. I mean, that's what I think, you know, what's great is you guys write it so well

and it's so funny and it's so funny that that's what I think is like what journalism has to do now. What? It's like find a new way, like a candy coating for... That can send you

in some dicey directions. I know. I don't like it. That is not journalism area to make it entertaining. And it wasn't, The fourth estate was supposed to be boring. But so is policy.

So we're the most, the majority of the vast majority of this one, we are aggregating the work of good journalism to then build something different. Sure. To try and put a whole bunch of stuff into one place and then write jokes on top of it. But in doing that, you might be interested in this. Like, we want to put the writers in a position to succeed, where it is possible to write jokes. Yeah.

And we've got better at that. Like the first few years, occasionally we were giving writers just, the worst ingredients restoring saying, so write jokes. And you can see the point of saying, I can do this maybe four times. Then I don't know how you think there is nothing I can work with here

to get to something funny. So we try and make sure that we're at least giving them material like an episode of chopped that could. Yeah. That could make a joke without you faking one.

You're not doing iron chef and giving them a car motor. Yeah. And you want to make that edible. Yeah. And you want to write about the material, not have to write, jokes off to the side all the time.

Yeah. Because then you're just like throwing flares out saying, oh, here's a funny thing, not connected to what we're talking about at all. You can get away with that a couple of times. Otherwise, it feels like you're making two different shows. I think that's why a lot of us feel so crazy right now is because we're making the clowns be the parent at the birthday party. Well, that is definitely true.

Because I think the inversion that's taking place over certainly the last, say, 10 years. 10 years. Is that it used to be you would take something of suburb. and then you'd put sugar into it. But now what you're having to do is kind of turn that around and take something which is sugar-based and reverse engineering to tell people why it's actually important.

Yeah. Why a very dumb thing this very ridiculous human being has said is actually very important. And I think that's like, you know, everyone does the thing this happens every time, but they go, why isn't John Stewart running for office? And you go, that's not the question. You don't want to.

The question is, why are we so broken that that's what we're looking? to as the fix. Yes. How about the adults in the room start doing policymaking should be boring and not sexy. Yes. So this goes as far back as Kennedy, trying to make the president cool. I don't want the president to be cool.

Yes. I want him to be boring as fuck. Absolutely. I want him to go like, here's how we're going to fix health care. And you go, can you just fix it? Yeah, my tolerance for the president being cool has got pretty, pretty low now. And it was like going back and looking at it, it's like that scene interstellar, where Matthew McConaughey is like screaming at the bookcase.

That's how I feel when I see that clip of Clinton playing sax on Arsenio. I'm like, no, you're trying to make him cool. And then he's just kidding. He's like, I'm going to get my dick sucked in the White House. And you never want, even with some of the Obama stuff, you never want to, you don't want to be part of that group. And they want to try and suck in celebrities and people in the arts and people from sports. You just, you never want to be that close.

You want to be as a personal remove. Personally, I like a remove in general, but also you just don't want to be in a position to be charmed by someone that you are eventually going to have to criticize. You're putting too much cheese in it. It's like where every American restaurant goes, we added cheese.

It's like the new Applebee's thing where they go, we cut our hamburger in half, and then we just let it sit in a soup of cheese. And you go, it's too much cheese. That's how I've always felt about when actors try to get political. You go, you're a professional life. You're a liar telling me which liar to pick.

I don't like any of that. That's too much cheese. Can I get a salad? Feels to me like you're working out a cheese bit. A cheese bit in real time. That's too much cheese. And then I look to the camera. That's your hamburger.

Oh, I wish out of hamburger. John Oliver, if I had a hamburger, I would be saying, that's just too much cheese. That's too much cheese. That's out to the crowd, too much cheese. If you think this episode's not going to be called too much cheese, you're fucked in the head because that's too much cheese. I know, and the problem is it will haunt you

because you'll think you've moved past the too much cheese bit, but that crowd ain't going to be ready. No, no, no, no. You come back and you do the too much cheese. And then I get into a war with craft because they don't like where the new album's going, but I got too much cheese and I want to know where the cheese is coming from, man.

What does the too much cheese guys talk about? I have absolutely no idea. It's a Pavlovian response. Ding-a-ling-ling. All I know is I've eaten so much cheese. I'm diabetic. And I can't have fucking... That's right.

Yeah. I'm trying to put... I'm big cheeses behind my catch fries. How's Dan? He's a prisoner of his own success. You'll see. Oh, the cheese king? Just look at his new poster.

He's huge in Wisconsin. To a problematic extent. If you ever get to fly out to see his house that he bought with all the cheese money. It's outside... It's in daily city. It's a gigantic house. And he is not.

not happy in it. No dairy. No dairy allowed in it. Don't say the word. Derry. He'll find dairy. My question that I always love that I love asking, especially comics that are from a different country that come here, is when it's done well, it's very refreshing.

When someone comes to the United States and goes like, what the fuck are you guys doing? Were you worried when you came here about when you watch other comics do it poorly? Because there are comics that come here and go like, fuck your price. president and you go, well, yeah, as an American, there's some comics where I go, why do you, I did, I had a different relationship pretty early on with the country, because I knew that I wanted to stay here before my immigration status made that a certainty or even a probability. Sure. So, I was talking from a slightly different position, not as a tourist, more as like someone who was trying to take ownership. Sure. And as a British person saying, taking ownership of a country,

historically has some red flags attached to it. I don't know what you're talking about. It doesn't matter. No, there's a whole reason that a continent, a full wool world away, worships your queen. I remember the last year when Trump was talking to the president of Liberia and saying, it's amazing that you speak English. And you go, oh, there are historical reasons for that dude that you do not want to get into and you will deny after being presented with the facts. Buddy, you're going to find out the last 200 years, the English has been pushed in a way that we're not too comfortable with.

Teaching English as a foreign language to a genuine fault. That's always like when one of my friends, goes, why are there so many Mormon Samoans? And you go, let's not. Do you want to? Do you want it? Because it can't be a short conversation. I don't think it's that they thought they were cool,

that they got caffeine sucked too. Yeah, so I got, I found that I wanted to come here, not just as a, not just as a external critic, but a critic from the inside. So I started changing the way that we were writing those chats at the Daily Show. It often went for the first year or two. It was often you. you and the jokes were pretty reductive coming from you're doing this and I then gradually

change that to we because I've been there for long enough that you can't really play that card anymore. I remember talking to Ronnie Chang and saying when he first got here saying it'll take about a year for you to like understand after doing stand-up here a lot what position that you are occupying in terms of talking from if that makes any sense. Yeah, that's that's fascinating because you know I think when I went over to the UK and I was in, I did some shows in Ireland and I did some shows in London and then fringe, finding that like, yeah, it's very tempting to come in and go, definitely. What the hell you guys doing?

And by the way, I'm guilty of it. If you were at any of my shows at the Soho Theater, there was like me going like, you guys run out of ice and it's like a very American, you know. But of course, I think that's just a function of being in a place for a short amount of time. And you realize, and whether you're asking questions of like, why do you do this in any kind of good faith in being interested in the answer. Yeah. So that's where it gets much deeper.

Yes, because I've also seen just people come here and then they go so hard in the paint against our government and don't let up for so long that you go, you're almost like snap out of it and you go, well, fucker, you don't vote. Like there is that. And that happened to me early on when I moved to New York because I had the feeling, obviously it's not the same feeling, but when you move from outside New York City, which you were experiencing at the same time. as you're coming to the country.

There's a feeling, New Yorkers are very like, yeah, why'd you look up? You know, you go, it's a giant building. And they go, hey, don't look up. It's like a little thing through you go, that's such a natural response to be blown away by the architecture. And then they go, it's fucking idiot.

And you're like, I didn't know. Look at him. Look at the curiosity on this little deer's face. Oh, country mounds. Back to the woods in New Jersey. Yeah. And I'm coming from Colorado, my favorite. thing was I had an ex-girlfriend whose whole family was like New York, New York, New York,

like, I'm talking about five generations in a borough. So they're very like, you know, and her mom would talk to me like I was a mountain person. Like, like she would go, like, she would say something. She'd go, do they have that in Colorado? And you go, yeah, we have streets and hospitals. You'd be blown away by the infrastructure that we've been able to build on the side of our mountain. It's flat if you've ever been to Denver. But there is this feeling of like, so I kind of understood.

We've done it with less oxygen than you, which is more impressive. Well, see. We also get storms thrown at us from the mountains like it's some sort of like Zeus is casting down lightning bolts on us. But Fifth Avenue is I see. That must be tough. Oh, but these people don't know how to drive. You guys don't know how to drive. You're cutting people off at every fucking moment.

Not once. You know what's funny is the lamest I ever felt moving to New York was the first time I drove and someone let me in a lane and I wave. and I was like, I should have done that. Yeah, that is some Midwest. That's some bitch shit. You do that in New York and you go, I guess I'm going to pee sitting down for the next week.

You know what? Let's not just let New York ruin all manners everywhere. You could reintroduce the wave. Yeah, but that would be. Just do it with confidence. I'm telling you right now, John. I am. I'm thankful you let me in.

I refuse to be humiliated by expressing my gratitude. Good day to you, sir. Thumbs up to you. I would tell you that would have to pair with a couple of assaults, very public assaults, to let people know, this guy doesn't fuck around. Really? You better wave back. New Yorkers only respond to violence.

Just to be clear, Dan, I don't think that is the acceptable exchange rate for a single wave. Two assaults? No, one assault. No, it's a one for one. Okay. One for one. One assault for a wave for being wetting. I'm just saying that the assault has to be the insurance policy on the wave, where if you wave and then,

don't wave, then commit an assault? I think that is a race to the bottom and you end up in the purge again. Okay. But what can come from the bottom but nothing but up? Oh, you're saying things got so bad. Burn everything to the ground. And then the wave will be installed first. We're certainly tantalizing with that as a society saying,

could we purify this with flames? We could. Should we? That's a much, much more complicated conversation. Everyone look at your phone. The flames are grabbing everybody. You look at your phone and the flames are everywhere. I can't fucking get out of this.

When you moved here and you, You be, you know, you're working at the Daily Show doing stand-up. Was there ever a, I want to just go back to the UK? No, never, never. Never. Because I wonder at what point it pulls you. Like, do you go home and you go, it would be nice to be here or spend more time here?

No, not really. I mean, it's, I will say, like, if this goes back to what you were just talking about, the idea of being an outsider is helpful in comedy, right? You see things in a different way. So that becomes, there's a high function to that. Yeah.

So expressing yourself as an outsider, while increasingly not feeling that way, is an interesting position to write comedy from. Also, just being at the daily show at that time, that was pretty much the high water mark for doing the kind of television that I was interested in. So I'd done so many terrible versions of that show in England, worked as a writer on bad, bad, bad shows.

Including, clear knockoffs? This goes all that, yeah, but not without, with any sense of what the thing you're trying, to knock off is fundamentally built on. I remember this goes right back to what you were saying earlier on. I did one terrible version of The Daily Show. We were writing, Oh, as it gets warmer and you get older, things start hurting.

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and even offers you emergency assistance at the tap of a button. Okay, but what if I don't have an accident? Well, just keep on, keeping on. Bell Air Direct, insurance, simplified. Conditions apply. I remember this goes right back to what you were saying earlier on. I did one terrible version of The Daily Show. We were writing a show where the host,

there was one comedian, there was one newsreader. And immediately that's not, you think that's a good idea from the outside. It's immediately a problem. He can't do this. Not only does he not have any kind of comedic cadence. Also, he shouldn't be anywhere near this. We were doing this one. So wait, the newscaster was buttoned up.

Was it one of those things where you had a straight man and a comic? Yes. But he was he doing the straight man trying to be funny? I think what they were trying to do was, well, let's do fake news in its most pathetically reductive form. That's always where they fucked up. And a comedian. But he literally, you would pitch him jokes and say, I can't say that.

I've got to read the news tonight. You're right. You can't say that. So maybe you fuck off. So maybe this entire deal is fucked. It's a different job. Yeah. You shouldn't.

This. We are tainting you by your presence here. So you shouldn't be here. You're actually the problem here. This ointment is fine. You're the fly. That is, to me, that's when actors. try to do stand-up.

But I think what they were, for sure, but I think what they were trying to do was emulate John, who was very clear about what he was, that he was a comedian in that job. So all of those articles about America's favorite newsman, you're putting that on him.

There's a very clear consistency, albeit very clear, singular editorial point of view running from him through the show. So it was a total misunderstanding of how you make these shows. Now, when you get to your point of actors, I'm not sure that I've seen a single, Maybe, but it doesn't count.

I was going to say Jim Carrey's Andy Kaufman, which doesn't matter because it doesn't, of course, because he's paid his dues. Also, there's also guys, what's crazy is I think it's a very weird relationship acting and stand-up are where I think great actors can come from stand-up. Right. But I don't think great stand-up can come from actors.

I think when actors... Unless they've done it, right? That's the thing, unless they've done it. Well, that's what I mean. I mean starting off your base, right? your base starting at stand-up, I think you can grow to be a great actor. Michael Keaton, Tom Hanks. For sure.

I think there were a lot of people that started doing stand-up that left it behind and became world-class actors. I've never seen an actor leave acting and become a world-class stand-up. Oh, yeah. Because the base is, like, so unimportant versus acting. Well, and also, it must be hard to start stand-up as a famous person because you're starting with an unhelpful amount of credit in the bank from an audience, right? You can't help but disappoint them.

And also, you're not going to fail in the ways that are important to fail to get good. It goes back to right what we're saying at the start, right? You need to be chiseled in the kiln of catastrophic failure. You need to be comfortable being painfully humbled. Yes. Painfully humbled. And I think that's why rich kids who start businesses never do well. Because they're like, when you hear about some famous person's child is starting this fashion brand, you go, well, I hope someone else is running it.

that started a small business and has failed. Because these rich kids, it's, you know, he sees me talk about this all the time, but I call it the mafia boss son. Like, Gotti's son could never be in the mob. He can't run the mob because the guys he's around. They're like, we killed people to survive. And he was like, I didn't get a Rolls Royce until I was 17. Right.

Like, it's just off. Tony got it from his dad, but AJ wasn't getting it from Tony. Exactly. That's exactly it. Like Tony kind of saw, the Sopranos is like one of the best examples of it. Because AJ, you go, I don't want him to be a mafia member. I want him to be a kid from the bird. Also, Tony Sopranos, that is an objectively funny show.

Very fun. So, like pound for pounds, so many more laughs in there than it's ever given credit for. And also, when on the rewatches, you realize that there's, like, there's, like, there's, like, the way bodies fall or, like, the way noises they make. You go, that's funny. Like, I know we're in a serious scene, but, like, the way Tony will beat someone up and, like, do some of his hands. And you go, that's hilarious. It's Buster Keating. if he bled.

Yes. Yeah. Someone, that was the pitch. There you go. I don't know where this world's going to be. But it's Buster Keaton if he bleeds. What if he's hanging off the clock,

but he's dislocated his shoulder visibly? But the guy that owed him the money is holding him. Yeah, it is. I mean, I think there is like, when you go back and watch, I like humor as a flavor.

I don't like it as a base when it's supposed to be something important. Right. I think that's what we were kind of talking about. Definitely. And I think, if you're going to, be funny you add the sugar on the top.

Yes, I think that's why I love Maria Bamford so much. Because it's relentlessly funny. Yeah. Just constantly, relentlessly funny. But it is built on top of really dark truths and interesting points of view. Something that always to me in people that are just funny, it doesn't even have to be stand-up comedy, is I always liked finding people that were funny because they had to be,

because it was a self-defense mechanism. Oh, yeah, totally. Be like, whether it be like depression or, you know, you look at Maria Banford and you go, she has to be funny to survive. Yeah, yeah. Or else her brain would have taken her down years ago. And I love watching that.

And that's why, like, one of my favorite albums of all time is unwanted thought syndrome, which she records at the UCB. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And she just like, basically like, try to follow her. You try to follow her, and you're like, I can't follow her line of thinking, but every, it's like, she turns and does a bit.

turns and does it and every movement is funny and she's one of my favorite of all times and and what's funny is to take her and go like i want her to do qvc for real that's what it feels like sometimes where they're like no i'm listening to this person for real and you're like well she's very loudly mentally unwell i think you should probably just enjoy her being funny yeah she's but that's where we're at now where everyone is accessible what i love about last week tonight is you still do the thing of like hey we got an episode coming out yeah so it'll be coming out. Yeah.

Well, also there's no, like, early on, they were asking, HBO saying, maybe it would be good to like, you know, like some late night show say what guest is on. You say, well, you could say what are you going to be talking about. That is not inviting people in.

That is a repellent. If we say we're talking about mobile home financing, you think, well, that is a hard skip from me. This only works because it's like an audience that is then trapped. And you're like, you have to trust us. We've been working on this for a, A month and a half, this is going to be funnier than it sounds for the first four minutes.

What if we put a little soccer ball icon when you guys talk about FIFA? Let it know it's coming and you go, no, I can't do that. You can understand it from their point of view. Of course, that is the way that marketing works. However, I promise you it is best if you don't list the ingredients of this. No one's going to order it. We're coming out with this flavor. Don't tell them.

Juvenile justice for 50 minutes? Whoa. Wow. Okay. Honey, set the DVR. Sunday night and I'm tired? John Oliver's talking about. roofing. I can't wait to spend 50 minutes learning about the roofing industry in America.

Is it worse than I think? Oh, thanks. Where are the jokes here, though? Shingles can cause cancer or shingles itself? And then you're like, oh, the fuck. Got worse during Reagan? Okay. Oh, fun. Did you ever, was there ever something that you were working on that you went, this might be too dangerous? Like, have you a bad? Too dangerous. Yeah, because sometimes you go into big shit where I feel like you're investigating in a way that does uncover some stuff that probably pisses people off. Sure. You can't care. That's probably my better question is. You can't care about that, though. I genuinely, to my bones, don't care. I don't have a physical reaction to it. Like, some, I admire that. When we were, I think it's just at night, like when we were doing one of the pieces on

the Sackler family, I think at one point they called up demanding to come into the office. No, you can talk to our researcher on the record. That's so funny. And you think, that the Sackler family thought they could come in and talk to you? What was more chilling is you realized that that was their move. It's like, oh, we go into the building. You're not coming to the building. You can talk to our researcher on the record. You can do that.

You can talk to her on background. But no, there's a process here. And it doesn't, if you think this is going to be a charm offensive, please let me save you a trip. I love that they thought they were to come in there and go, how you do it? Have you ever been to our wing in the museum? Exactly.

Come take a look at it and you go, you started the opiate epidemic. That's right. Like, you created oxycotton and ruined most of the Rust Belt, America. I think that's always, you know, something that I was fascinated by Beth Macy's book, Doep Sick and talking about the Sackler family,

was this idea that they would always go, we'll get out of this. Yes. Like a Houdini. Also, there's the amount of Sacklers who, in the research of that, people say, oh, we're on a different side of the family. Different side of the family, how?

We don't talk to those cousins. And yet when the inheritance comes down, you all get wet, right? Yeah, they go, you're going to make sure you're on that side of the family. family when David dies. My hands are clean.

I think we disagree on what the word clean means. Can I tell you one of my boredom things? You know, I started hating social media pretty quickly, being forced to do it or whatever, but I found this, after I read Dobsick by Beth Macy, one of my searches was I would go to one of the members of the Sackler family because they were like an influencer,

and I'd just read the comments. Yes, I know who you mean, yeah. And I'd just read the comments because I would watch her delete him in real time. where they'd be like blood money and she'd be like new dress dropping and they're like, I lost my mother to heroin because of you. And then it's like, okay, that's not a sexy comment. And watching that made me, I know this is sick, but it brought me this like weird joy of like,

fuck yeah, they should be pushing. At that point when there was almost nothing to hope for in the way of justice, it felt like that was the most justice you could hope for, a stain. Yes. Even if it wasn't going to be a legal process, you were going to be stained by it. I think we're going to be going through that a bunch with this administration and what they're doing. Stain is going to have to follow some of these people

for what they're doing for the rest of the life. Can I just tell you? The justice system won't catch up to them. I know. You're absolutely correct that the justice system won't. My, where I have to individually take responsibility is just hope,

hope that in two years my career isn't going so poorly that Caroline Levitt's sitting there and I'm going, yeah, it is a bunch of bullshit. You know what I mean? And going, talking to Mike going, clip that. That was real good. that was real good when I said that vanity therapy was bullshit. You know what I mean?

Like, can I tell you that's where my worried is? It's not even under justice. The algorithm likes it when you carry water for the Trump administration. Who are we to argue with it? I go, John, the views are through the roof. But it's like, there's a part of me that, like, that's what I fear.

Is that like, oh, God, I hope I can fucking dig my, you know, because you don't, everything gets turned around and these people do try to go like, you know, genuinely fear that. No, that's 100% of joke. Yes, that's right. I can't be any part of the moral compass with Benz.

Yeah. I genuinely try to hope I won't spit on these people. Like it's, you know what I mean? Like there are people that I watch that make me so angry that I go, I know you don't mean this. Well, so that goes back to what you were saying about like the process of comedy.

I don't know how I could do the kind of journalism that people that we speak to do without knowing at some point we're going to try and write a joke about it because it puts you in such an emotional spiral. That's why I don't fork with that shit. As things get darker and darker. Like, if we didn't, as crazy as it can seem from the outside,

to try and write jokes about incredibly depressing world events, I don't know how to deal with depressing world events without them. I've always been a big fan of watching comedians like Bill Hicks or like Doug Stanhope take these heavy, heavy ideas. Of course. They make very funny. And I also think, that was one of the first instances where I realized my restrictions, where I go, I don't think I can do that.

I don't, because I think I get so fired up that it's like, oh, it's just going to be me yelling. It's not going to be me being funny. Yeah, my, my humor comes from more of like an airport bar energy of like, we're just sitting around bullshit. Okay. But I've never been the person, and I admire this in comedians, that they go, I have a problem and I think I'm going to have a funny part and then a solution and a funny. part because I just go, well then we just tear their eyes out. And they go, that's not funny at all. I'd go, right, right, it's not funny.

Well, I'll work backwards from tear their eyes out. You go, okay, back up a little bit. That's right. Just I can frame it in a different way, but just know in my head, my fingers are in someone's socket. Well, yes. When I was at Sirius XM and they would tell people, they would like brief us when we were doing the show of like, this person's going to be in the building.

I'd be like, I'm afraid I'm going to shit in my hand and throw it out. I'm like a champ. You might have to keep. I think it was Steve Bannon the first time he was coming. coming through. And it was like 2015. But I was just watching them and I'm not a political guy, but I was like,

I was just kind of watching all the fuckery, which by the way, now that all the Epstein files are out and we're finding out that... Not all. Not all. But we're finding out that the culture war was manufactured by these people.

That's what I'm saying. It makes me feel less crazy because at the time it was making me feel so crazy, I go, I know you don't really mean this shit. I was just watching on the way over here, Dan Bongino's a video about saying, it's just,

I can't wait to what. It's the, every move that you would think you make. Listen, when you get in there, things are more complicated. Oh, they're more complicated, are they? Yeah. Than the reductive, self-serving way that you sold it?

Whoa, no shit. First off, hell's hot, but it's a dry heat. And no one talks about that. It's not humid. Satan, and a lot of people don't know this. He's in it. He's frozen. It's just about regular hydration.

It is. That's really what it is. You have to hydrate. You have to know. It just can't be outside. The whole thing's air-conditioned. What are we? worried about here.

Demons is such a negative word. What they are, they're spirits. We're all demons. Yeah. Sure, it's a boiling river of blood. And Alexander is drowning in it for eternity. Or, just having a soak. You got to look at it differently. That's what I mean of, like, how good we've gotten at, like,

ignoring part of your brain and just going, like, this is fine. It's that mean with the dog with fire around it, being like, this is fine. You go, I don't think it is. Yeah, and it's, that is, it can be maddening on the outside. And I am glad that some people are coming to a realization. Yes. In the wake of Minneapolis, of what this administration was always capable of.

It is more than a little frustrating to hear any element of surprise about something that in this administration's defense, they were openly considering 10 years ago. Yeah. So it's absurd to, and I, again, Again, I'll take people opening their eyes any way I can, but to open your eyes and say, nobody saw this is a lot of people. Well, that's just funny because they go like,

like they're running on monster trucks should be driving around in the city. I want to see monster trucks driving. And you go, I don't think that's a good idea. And ten years later, they go, my car got crushed by Bigfoot. And you go, well, yeah, I told you monster trucks shouldn't be driving around the city.

No idea that they were doing this. Really? I don't know. I think I'm going to defend them here. Yeah. They implied it pretty strongly. I think you were willingly not listening. What's interesting is, is everything is a pendulum.

So it's going to swing back. Of course. It's going to swing back. And what's going to be interesting is in 10 years, if when it swings back to where the left is, you go, guys, don't forget. Because in a lot of ways, the bad shit was a quick reaction to, we're finding out it was all manufactured.

Yes. I would say, like in terms of the pendulum, it's always worth remembering it swings then. back again, right? I think the most naive I've been is that after that first six months to a year of COVID, where it was clear that for many people who had not been watching, systemic issues were exposed and undeniably laid in front of them. I did remember thinking, oh, if we get through to the other side of this, maybe we have a want to a generation chance to actually address systemic issues. And, oh man, did I not give Americans credit to go, we can move straight on from

this, don't worry. most British thing you've done is you've gone, well, there'll clearly be a lesson at the end of this. I know, I'll change. You go, have you ever been on a double loop? Did he loop? You go, brother, this roller coaster ain't over. We're going backwards. There you go, how do you do you do a loop to do you loop backwards? You go, brother, it's the only reason I came here. I know. That really is the feeling where you just, if you've ever gone on a roller coaster, it goes backwards, you're like, why are you doing this? It's what. So, that is the one, you know, shining city on a hill gets vastly overused

and was never really applicable in the way that Reagan described it. I will just say, if America is anything, at its best and worst, it is the double loop. It's the double loop. No one else would even think of doing it.

No. You go, a loop is enough. And America goes, two loops, and we're doing it again. Two loops, do it backwards. And we're not fucking around. We're not fucking around at all. And that's the cheese.

Gee, we've got to find that. I forgot what the catchphrase was. Not enough cheese. When you, as far as stand-up goes, are you still doing stand-up? I am, I used to just get to do it every, over the holidays. I would do like a run up into New Year. That became, it was a way to keep doing it. It was also immensely frustrating because I would jump up a bit at the start of that week around clubs

to try and remember. how to do it. Oh, yeah. It takes a few gigs of doing it to get anything close to competent. By the end of it, I've kind of fallen back in love with it and then I've to stop doing it for another year. Yeah. That was very frustrating.

So now once a month I do The Beacon with Seth. Oh, yeah. And Brooks Wheeling was the one of those days? And Brooks as well. I love Brooks. And so now I get to do it at least once a month. And that's probably the minimum amount I can do it and still feel like it's at my fingertips. Yeah.

I love that. I just like, I like seeing guys that I always like doing stand-up knowing they're still keeping their foot in it because nothing bums me out. It's like, a comic I like is like, I don't do it anymore. You go, why you're not doing it? I couldn't. Why you're not doing it is I genuinely feel that way.

I don't know, understand why you wouldn't. I remember my wife, when just before we got married, I was working long hours of the Daily Show and I was doing non-stop stand-up. So it's before we had kids. It's an understandable conversation to have with her saying, why are you going out and doing two shows in these shitty rooms tonight?

And that why has an answer, but it's one that, you know, it's because it's where I'm happiest. Yeah. It's because, you know, it scratches and itch. It's immediate gratification. Immediate integration. It's, there are lots of reasons to do it, but it also feels like as part of a broader conversation, I can, I can and probably should do it less,

given how much I'm working at this other thing. It's just a tough balance. God, what a relationship conversation that, I'm not joking, every comedian has had with a significant other. Of course. Where they go, every night, you go, every night. I live this shit. And finally they go, well, you live with me.

I know. It took Katie being like, come on, this is crazy. It's entirely fair because I think she's right. I think it is a little bit crazy. And I think there is a healthier version of it. There isn't the version that feels the best. I started taking, you know what it's, I think you're absolutely right. And also what it does is it lets your gas tank fill up.

Yeah, definitely. So then you go, do you stand up and you go, I have all these real situations I've lived in that help me write my jokes. And that's where you realize the level of addiction stand up can be at times. Because it is like saying, oh, really? Heroin again today? Why? It's not just a weekend thing.

Yeah. Oh, no, we're doing it on a Monday. Okay, this might be a problem. I remember, you know, I quit drinking 13 years ago. And Joe List, fantastic comedian, he quit before me. And we were drinking buddies. And we used to drink every night of the week. Yeah.

And we'd take Sunday off. And we'd see each other Monday and we'd go, look at us being healthy. And that's how it started to feel with stand-up. I would be on the road. I'd come home and do shows on Sunday. And then I took Sundays off for the first time and I was like, work-life balance. And then I started dating Katie and we started getting together.

And she was like, all right, so you're going to do five shows Thursday, Friday, Saturday. Why are you doing Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday? I think she's right. But I was very, very, very resistant to that. It's a tough conversation. It's tough because it's tough to be warm. to the fact that you're wrong. It's crazy how quickly,

it's quickly how misogyny pops in where you go, this dumb bitch telling me not, and you go, oh, it's because she loves you. Yeah, that's right. And you go, oh, she loves me

and just wants to spend more time with me. Maybe I should go and analyze that. Maybe I should be seeing this is an attack. Exactly. That's genuinely what it was where I go, oh, this isn't an attack. She has so many times had to, like a wild animal,

come up with hands of grain and go, Hey, hey, buddy, I just want you to be around more. And I'm going like, I'm just breathing heavy and kicking my fucking leg. Dude, thank you so much for doing the podcast. Also, that must be the moment where she's having an internal dialogue with, why do I want this wild animal around? Because it seems like. I honestly think if there wouldn't have been COVID,

that was the moment where we were together so much. It was like, great, all right. And then when I came back, she softly was like, maybe do spots every other night. And then it worked. And I started liking it more. And now I had this much healthier balance with life. Look at you now.

Look at us now. I'm in the cheese game. We're doing all right. All the way in the cheese game. I'm pretty deep in the cheese game. Pretty confident. I'm going to have Caroline Levitt books in two years if she's not dead by a mysterious force. If you don't get spotted by little baby bells from this episode.

Baby bell, where the fuck are you at? Capitalism doesn't work. I mean, honestly, I don't even think America does. The experiment is over. Give it back to the king. We're fucking Charles. That's it. That's all I want for any interview

is to have someone say, give it back to the king. My work here is done. You check in. I'm off to do Andrew Schultz. You go back, I'm going to get them all. Collect them all like Pokemon.

You're the best, dude. Thank you for coming on. You're fucking hilarious. I love your work. Thank you. For real, when they said you were coming on, I was like, no way. And I cannot wait to tell Katie

that you popped seeing the garbage time hat. That's the first thing I saw when I was, Start the online petition. Bring back garbage time. I love that show. Yes, it should never have gone. It should have never gone. Oh, you've got to clip that.

You're the best thing. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks, dude. Appreciate it. Awesome. The Bell Air Direct app includes crash assist, which detects an accident the moment it happens, and even offers you emergency assistance at the tap of a button.

Okay, but what if I don't have an accident? Well, just keep on, keeping on. Bell Air Direct, insurance, simplified. Conditions apply.