Soft Skills Engineering - Episode 24: Should I be a generalist or specialist developer?

Episode Date: August 29, 2016

In episode 24, Jamison and Dave answer this question: As a software developer, should I be a generalist or a specialist? This was inspired by a Twitter conversation here: https://twitter.com/iam_preethi/status/766758679743954944

kick it you can migrate a database you can't stand your co-workers face your manager committed some code sadly it failed under load you can build an app in ruby on rails but your neighbor is clipping their fingernails oh soft skills engineering all your problems they are disappearing oh soft skills engineering nothing good rhymes with engineering it takes more than code to be a great engineer this is the soft skills engineering podcast i'm your host dave smith i am your host jameson dance and jameson is also on vocals and guitar I am on vocals and guitar. I made a new song.

It was beautiful. Thank you. I labored for minutes over this. Literally minutes. Well, it was great. Many minutes. I also just now got the look for my wife. Apparently, I woke up our baby. Oh, I can't think of a better song to wake up to. yeah that's true like wouldn't you want to wake up to um let's call them like high school freshman level guitar skills

yes it's one step above playing wonderwall well guitar people have all these inside jokes about songs that are like supposed to be easy or yeah i think that was one of them it it is one of them they're like the party songs that you would go play at the high school party to impress people with how awesome you are and wonderwall is one of them okay it's good to know so i can play that next time yeah if you want to impress people at a party bust out the wonderwall so do we have questions today jameson we have questions if you want to impress people at a college party tell them you listen to soft skills engineering use the information you're about to gain i will read the first question uh so the question is should i

be a specialist or a generalist my current dilemma as a software engineer is do i focus on an area for example front end and get really good or stay broad and keep learning a bunch of different areas now this question came from twitter not directed at us but we're going to answer it anyway right it did yeah and you you have better name pronunciation skills this came from a twitter friend of mine named preethi casareti preethi i'm sorry if i mispronounced your name but probably should have asked before I said it. I'm sorry. But Preeti Kasaredi, I think, is probably the correct pronunciation. Thank you so much for asking this question to the Twitterverse. Jameson and I have talked about it a lot, and we would love to take a shot at

providing our input. First, let's talk about what generalist and specialist mean. How do you define those? That is really hard to define, I think. But there's several layers of generalist and layers of specialists so clearly if you only want to know one programming language that would make you a specialist in that language right yeah which is fine as long as you pick the good language the one the one that i'll tell you after the podcast yes yeah i'll tell you later yep um it's cobalt uh so clearly that would be a form of specialist but i don't think that's very common I think people tend to specialize more in a genre like an area like say back-end web development or front-end web development something like that do you think that's right Jameson yeah that's

my impression I think usually specializing in that genre ends up as spending most of your time in in a specific language or framework but I think you're right that it's driven by I want to do this kind of work so i want to do back-end work so i'll learn ruby and rails versus i really just want to write ruby on rails and that's that's my jam in the back-end web world there's also specialization that can take place based on the deployment technologies that you use and by deployment i mean like the infrastructure that you use like for example windows stack versus an open source linux stack that's um you know two very big divides in the back-end world there's dotnet specialists and then used to be called lamp i don't know what they call the linux stack

these days i mean the l is is still in there lamp still linux i mean tons of stuff is still built on lamp it's just not it doesn't have the buzz almost all the other letters are gone like it was linux apache mysql and php that was the original lamp acronym yeah and i think the only letter that's really popular in web development still is the l for linux i i think it's still just as popular it's just not no nobody's writing blog posts about it oh that's probably the the cool factor of the name has worn off um yeah so i i like the model of like i'm i specialize in databases or distributed systems or some uh kind of more broad i'd say more more solution focused thing versus a specific programming language that to me it feels

like what specialization means yeah i think you're right about 15 about 13 years ago i met a guy who was a consultant and he specialized in oracle database administration like that was his specialty and that's the service he offered and nothing else and let me tell you he charged a pretty penny for that service yeah that's it was very pretty give me your most luscious penny and that will do for payment we call those luscious lincolns by the way oh after after all luscious abe as his college nickname but now you know would i have hired this person to work on my dev team to produce a software product. Well, only if I needed an Oracle database expert on that team, right? Most teams don't need an Oracle database expert. And yet he probably did pretty well with that specialty. Yeah. And

I think we'll talk more about this, but that gets at one wrinkle here, which is specialization for consulting is vastly different from specialization for just working on a team at a company. and if you are a consultant it's so much easier to market yourself and to to find clients that fit what you want to do if what you want to do happens to line up with a very kind of particular technical specialty which is an interesting paradox right because here you are saying i'm going to narrow my focus and cut off the vast majority of work that needs to be done and yet suddenly you'll have more work anyway we should we should pause that we should go into that a little bit later yeah yeah let me tell a little story about specialists versus generalists so

i've always considered myself a generalist who specializes in whatever the need of the day is you know so if i'm working on front end web and then i'm going to specialize in that for the time period that i'm working on it but i worked with a friend once who considered himself to be a specialist not a generalist in some area that doesn't really matter to this conversation but we were working together on a project and this opportunity came up to take our desktop application that we were working on and move it down into an embedded device and run it on this little embedded device. And as the company was pitching this idea to us on the engineering team, he said to the leader of the company, I'm not an embedded developer.

And he was saying that because he meant I'm not going to be able to work on this. But in my head, I was thinking, oh, cool, we'll get to work on embedded. right and and i i don't know if it was his specialist mentality that was making him maybe even subconsciously close the door on this opportunity to learn a new technology and do something new so that really struck me yeah that's um i i kind of think of it like evolution and evolutionary pressure and i actually did do a fair amount of biology in college but that was a while ago i'm not a biologist you're gonna hear an idiot's interpretation of the theory of evolution um basically you a species adapts to pressure in the environment there's something

thing about the environment that that encourages certain characteristics and so creatures with those characteristics survive and they become more prominent in populations uh there's this famous example of this moth that uh a bunch of factories built up around it and the moths like turned black because all the trees and all the all the all the stuff they lived on turned black from all the soot from the factories um but what happened was if i remember this correctly the factories went away all the soot went away and then they just got like gobbled up by predators so the the danger was specializing too much in in in response to the technical environment you're in is that if that environment changes you are now vulnerable right if you are prey yeah if the

oracle database person you talked about earlier that's just all they do they're so good at it there were so much money to people using oracle and then oracle goes away like what do they do now they they just start over and now they're competing with people who have specialized in useful skills or who have generalized uh to fit the question more or who have specialized in other skills just yeah not useful that's that was i didn't mean to say that oracle is a useful skill who specialize in skills that fit the environment better now that happened yeah that happened not to get destroyed yeah yeah there's a risk or reward payoff where specialization can allow you to uh just be very valuable to people that really need that skill and then when they don't anymore

you're you're in trouble oh okay the birds come gobble you up yes the birds um the predators really yeah the ape the apex predators will eat you i i think those are what are what are apex predators in this analogy i don't know like they're the elm community yeah yeah i guess i don't know sure i'll take that yeah so that's definitely a risk of specialization and i think that's actually why people talk about it because they're like if i invest all this time and effort into mastering this skill is it going to pay off well look at for example in the javascript community say you became the world's leading grunt expert you are now a sad person because everyone all the mind share has moved on from grunt and grunt

solves tons of problems for people still and it's very useful and it's great i'm not saying grunt is bad i'm saying uh the perception of like what's cool and what people should use is not grunt anymore on the other side of that same coin it's unlikely that anyone really made a killer living because of their grunt specialist status you know i mean maybe a little but uh it's interesting how certain kinds of tools like oracle or certain frameworks can yield a lot of benefit in a professional career whereas others you could specialize all day and no one would care that's true so maybe i mean yeah oracle is probably not going away they have like a lot of money they're gigantic tons of people use them so i i guess that the danger maybe is like they change

their database technology or something but if you're an oracle specialist you should be keeping up with that so that shouldn't catch you by surprise there's probably an inverse relationship between the amount of pain that it takes to deploy and maintain a system or a tool and the amount of money that can be made specializing in that tool yeah that's true but but my previous point was about you know like like grunt like you could say i'm gonna specialize in regular expressions like no one will be better at string pattern matching with regular expressions than me and it probably won't really yield you any substantial benefit in your career it'll just be so good at parties though when everybody pulls out their tricks and you're like watch me validate this email according

to the spec and then you type it a computer for like half an hour yeah like 3 000 characters later and then someone comes up and types like some random new top level domain name and it breaks your regular expression like oh damn and the occasional job interview you'll just be the wizard you know so um so i think we've sort of defined generalists and specialists and there's a lot of metaphors out there that i think describe the difference between generalists and specialists and how to strike the right balance. I think Jameson has heard of a few of these and he told me a great one earlier. You want to share that with us? Yeah, there, there are two. So there's one main one that I hear the most, which is the T shaped person. I think I heard this first

from the valve employee handbook, which we'll try and link in the show notes. And it's a fascinating read. Uh, but it talks about someone who has broad knowledge can do a lot of different things. um but their their knowledge goes very deep in one area so if you kind of graph the the kinds of stuff they know and how deep their knowledge is on that kind of stuff uh it ends up making a t like they cover a wide area and then in one part of it they know a ton about it um and that's that's kind of an argument to do both where you can do a lot of things but you specialize in something maybe to offer more value to people on on that specific skill set i recently read by hold on hold on let's talk about the t oh okay were you going to move to

the new metaphor i will not not anymore i'm going to save it now so i think just an interesting corollary to the t-shaped person i think over time developers tend to be more like capital m shaped where it's like they're a t and then the long part of that t you know you move on to something new and you develop another long i don't know what to call that thing the vertical stroke of the t you know and then over time you have another one and another one like that's happened in my life where you know 10 years ago i was a c++ expert and i was going deep on the c++ and i knew the standard library and i knew weird multi-threading semantics and weird you know template metaprogramming and all kinds of esoteric deep knowledge and now i don't use any of that

and so now i'm generating i've been developing a new vertical brushstroke on my t but it's like further over in time yeah so maybe that happens i don't know you are the world's expert at interpretive dance driven project management where your bosses ask you how the project is going and you just break out into furious expressive dance and everyone understands what you mean and they just feel in their gut like just in their in their soul like oh the project is on time through the expressiveness of your of your foot arches yeah uh that's a pretty that was my second vertical stroke valuable skill set yeah that makes sense and that's i think that's kind of like the other metaphor i was going to

talk about yeah uh kent beck talks about the paint drip person where you're kind of drawing a paint brush horizontally across some surface and then the paint will kind of drip down every so often as you're drawing and that's the same kind of thing where you just keep learning new stuff all the time and every once in a while you dive deeply into something so you you're specializing in a lot of different things it's not like you just dedicate your whole life to one thing um but that changes over time yeah i like that metaphor a lot yeah maybe this is uh i mean some people do dedicate their whole lives to something right we talked earlier um before we were we were recording about kind of the css people and i feel like that's an area where i see people who have been doing it

literally their whole career uh and and they're awesome at it and they continue to learn new things and teach new things about it because css practices change but but that's that's their jam and they just keep doing it forever um and that might be more personality are you okay with doing that kind of thing forever or do you get bored and want to move on to something else yeah yeah So let's talk a little bit about getting hired at different companies and working on product development teams. Sure. Because I believe that most good companies will expect you to be a generalist, able to

adapt with the company and grow and move in new directions as technology needs evolve. And as a result of that, my experience has been that good companies will expect you to be a master of whatever skills tools technologies languages you've worked with in the past and not with the tools technologies and languages that they are currently working with or to put in a tweetable bite-sized bit i would say bad companies expect you to be a master of their skills and good companies expect you to be a master of your skills oh that's deep that's polished ding did you see a little twinkle on the last sentence yeah i did that's amazing uh it's amazing while you're thinking or while you're talking i was i was trying to measure that against my

experience both hiring and being interviewed and maybe this means i haven't been around good companies but i feel like uh there's just a lot of inertia pushing against that idea where you know like great technical people they'll pick up new things they'll solve problems in general and and the technology doesn't matter as much to them but there's still i mean if you are going to go work at google they want you to know like linux system calls and like really uh i mean not in huge detail but but you don't have to be a like a java expert but you should know like http and how caching works and and kind of server-side okay skills that that i don't know where those fall in the generalist versus specialist spectrum you know certainly a kind of specialization

yeah so i i would actually be really surprised i haven't interviewed at google but i would be really surprised if they said well he was a great candidate but he didn't know the linux i octal syscall so we're just gonna pass i mean it's not i i don't even know what that is uh but it's it's like read it's not like i octal but but you should you should have some some understanding of what your operating system is doing when when you open a file or something like that so they expect you to have a certain amount of depth about like what your products have been built on is that kind of what you're saying yeah i and and i'm not trying to make this about google i'm saying in in particular just if someone is just an amazing front-end developer and they've proven

they can build awesome scalable code on the front end uh and they're interviewing at a company that just really needs to build out an api it's it's really hard to say like yeah they make beautiful things that animate well and they're easy to maintain but they don't know anything about databases and so we're gonna we're gonna take that chance on them because they've proven they're good technologists in general just by virtue of having built beautiful user interfaces yeah so So maybe I misunderstood what you're saying, but I feel like there is some amount of expectation of knowledge based around kind of those genres we talked about earlier. Yeah, I think you're probably right. But see, the situation you just described would be a case of someone having, like, let's say that was their only experience doing front-end development.

So they've specialized in front-end, and then they're approaching a company. And, you know, if I were interviewing that person and I needed a backend developer and I can tell this person wants to do frontend, I would think, well, this isn't a great match. But if they told me they wanted to do backend, then I would explore how well they have mastered their frontend stuff that they've done, you know, and then try to measure how well they would be able to adapt into a backend world. Yeah. And I would expect them to have mastered, you know, that. If they've been in the front end for years and they say, you know, I have a high level of proficiency in front end, I would try to find people on my team who could interview them and assess that proficiency, you know? Yeah. That's just real hard to do.

It is. No one knows how to interview anyways, but then if you widen the scope that much. Yeah, it's true. it's much easier with inexperienced people to say did they you know did they get a an appropriate amount of proficiency in the tools and technologies they've used in their first two years say it's a lot easier to answer that question than oh this is a 10-year css expert let's see if they really know css like i couldn't answer that you know i couldn't assess that you you pretend like it's a quiz and really you're just like having them fix your broken css all right let me throw

this brain teaser at you and then they like delete all your pound or bang important rules or whatever and your site works now they go yeah you solved my riddle congratulations so when it comes we should probably talk about the difference between like a full-time employee and a consultant or contractor in this area specialization we talked we touched on it a little bit but should we go a little deeper sure so i think i'll just restate what i said earlier that as a consultant or a contractor you are aiming to deliver well the the model that i see a lot is people are trying to deliver the maximum amount of value in the minimum amount of time which means you ain't got time to like spin up on new technology on the client's dime that's that's

kind of how a lot of uh clients interactions work that's not how all of them are um but in that case they don't want to pay someone who is a good developer to learn angular or whatever they want someone who is an angular expert who can just come in get a bunch of stuff done they spend their own time learning it and then and then they kind of help the team grow and maybe stay on for a while maybe leave after a little bit um so you're kind of encouraged to specialize as as a consultant so that you can sell that to people. So you can say, hey, you are not paying me to read docs. You're paying me to make your applications better.

And I will do that. And I am superhuman and I am flawless, brilliant. Can you see the light shining from my fingertips? Imagine that light in your code. Jameson's really good at marketing, by the way. I'm so good. Yeah, I didn't do my sales pitch this week. I'll do it again next week and compare it.

It'll be so much better. than, than before. Um, but as a team member, you want to help your team and that might be a bunch of different stuff. And that might mean you identify a problem that a solution doesn't exist on the team yet, and then you have to go learn it. So, uh, I mean, people are much more patient with like learning new technologies for full-time employees as well. And I don't know, it's just, you're, you're not competing to sell yourself as like the best person for the job at this thing like you already work there they already like you they hopefully they trust you know you do good work so they're willing to put up with like dave disappears for two weeks and

he comes out knowing a lot more about this thing that will make their business better yeah yeah but you certainly wouldn't want to pay a contractor to disappear for two weeks because that might be the full term of the contract yeah yeah and then they never come back and they're like hey thanks this will make my next contracts just so good yeah yeah you're buying the upgrade for your competitors yeah yeah um i mean some of it is uh it's easier to sell to or it can be easier to sell as a contractor if you focus because then you're focusing on people who have identified a need themselves they say we need an angular developer and you say i'm an angular developer uh and you kind of find clients

more easily too so those are the two main pressures i would say on encouraging contractors to specialize sales and efficiency yeah i think you're right even as a contractor who chooses to specialize in an in-demand technology that in-demand technology will not outlive your need to be a contractor generally right yep so even then you're still gonna need the ability to ramp up on other technologies right oh for sure so maybe like maybe if someone says should i be a generalist or a specialist you should just say what you should do is invest in your ability to learn new technologies and then specialize occasionally like back to that paint trip thing even if you're going to be a contractor like you better be ready to jump you know for

example i knew a contractor who specialized in flash and you know he was great at flash he could crank out flash apps when adobe air came out he could crank out these adobe air apps like nobody's business and now it was awesome he is dead and now he is a full-time employee he has stopped contracting because it's like that was the a huge boon for his career but after that he's just moved done yep and it was like matt i don't have time to spend five years becoming an expert in another technology yeah that's we we've kind of danced around this but we haven't really said it um where it takes a long time to be a real expert at something and you you can't invest that time all the time yeah i mean you have to focus for a long time to be an expert and sometimes you you

don't have the opportunity to just invest five or ten years in learning the ins and outs and all the different situations of of something i mean if you can be an expert in it in in a month uh so can everyone else yeah exactly good point what what do you what are you doing yep so what about is the advice different for people who are just starting out as developers versus people with say 10 20 years of experience just just do what i did that worked for me that's the best thing to do should work for you too yeah it didn't in that twitter you can pm james and he'll tell you what to do yeah in that twitter thread you said tyler mcginnis said something about that how everyone's just recommending what they did yeah here's what i did it worked great yeah and my response to that

was that the industry has been so hot for so long that it really didn't matter what you did you were going to be successful as long as you were competent you could be a successful developer in the last 10 years i sure hope that continues it might not who knows i'm banking on about another 25 years yeah if the industry could could die at the same time i do that would just be real convenient for me that'd be great sometime there or thereafter we could arrange that um yeah that's man that's such a hard question to answer and you can't even say like oh do what you like because if you don't know what's out there how do you know what you like if if you started programming five months ago there's so much you haven't done there's so much i haven't

done yet still yeah you don't even know it exists yeah so well here's what i like thing number seven that i don't know exists that's my favorite thing yeah yeah have you heard about like reverse machine unlearning it's this hot new that's my favorite yeah uh yeah so i don't know how to give good advice maybe the advice is go where the best resources to learn are or where you you learn the best as a new developer yeah if you are in a boot camp and you feel like your boot camp is great and they focus on front end like awesome you can get a job you can learn you can kind of branch out from there uh if you have a friend who's like an awesome game programmer and that's what gets you excited and you're gonna build a game together that's cool like you'll you'll learn stuff that

way um good point in other words step on the stepping stone that's in front of you and don't worry too much about other ways in yes that sounds much more zen than the way i said it i was thinking also that as a new developer in the scope of everything you know you are by definition a specialist in whatever it is you learn you know because it's like well i'm going to study front end for a month okay i'm a front end specialist why not because i'm an expert at front end but because i don't know anything else you know yeah that's true i have been saying the word expert a lot and that's very different from specialist yeah yeah exactly and i think when you're starting out you really do probably want to just narrow your focus into something tractable that you can really

understand and get your head all the way around before you start uh you know jumping and going all over the map because you really can like if you do a try to do a breath first uh learning run on the whole computer science dumb, you'll end up nowhere, you'll end up with no depth. So I think you're just going to have to specialize a little bit when you start. And most jobs will naturally encourage you to specialize. Because when you're new, you're not going to do contracting, you're usually going to be in a product development team, right? And you'll be forced to specialize because you're going to write code on some part of the product, and then you're going to become a specialist on that part. And that's going to be front end,

that might be JavaScript, that might be PHP, whatever it is, you're going to become a just because that's the full scope of everything you know yeah i i think okay here's here's jameson's pithy advice dave you've had lots of non-pithy just solid advice i would say whatever you do be intentional about it if you started as a php developer don't just stay a php developer for 10 years just because that's what you do um if you like it and you believe that that's what makes you happy then that's a great reason to stay but you should at least spend some time making sure that's a thing that you like and for some people that means explore other options for some people that just means kind of like read about it and

check out the other stuff but um if you're not intentional about whether you're a generalist or a specialist you can just end up where your skill set doesn't match what you like uh and you've either specialized by by accident or generalized by accident and you don't want to do that work anymore and then it's a lot of work to kind of retrain yourself especially if you're kind of further along in your career so you've higher salary expectations and and you got to like maybe take a pay cut to go work on something you enjoy more it's it's easier to to figure out what you want to do and do it then figure out you didn't want to do the thing you're doing now. All right, so now I'm going to share a tiny bit of advice

from my own personal experience, which I know is like not totally applicable to everybody. But I think there might be a cool lesson here, at least for me. And that is that right when I got out of college, I took my first job and I was writing a ton of Java code. And I did this for 18 months. And I went really deep into Java. I mean, I was studying the garbage collector. And I was looking application, what are they called app servers, and how they did like hot reloading of classes and all this stuff. And I got way into it. And I really liked it. But I quit that job after 18 months. And I went and started writing C++ at my second job. And I would have never learned C++ if I hadn't changed jobs. And I for me, and I think this is true for many people, it is really

hard to be to really become a specialist or even just to extend your generalist understanding to a something that doesn't uh isn't really needed for your day job you know what i mean like it's really hard it's really hard people are like oh yeah just go learn javascript on your own it's like it's hard it's hard to find the motivation to do that but when i was on the job i felt completely justified really digging into the java virtual machine then i went learn c++ and i dug way into c++ then i quit that job and started writing python code and javascript code and it was like every time i did it i was really specializing again like i was re-specializing but there's no way i would have gone that deep had i not been full-time employed working in

those technologies yeah you're just like a hobbyist jvm fan yeah like that doesn't like i'm sure there's people out there who are like that but come on it's really rare right it's rare and and usually those people end up working on the thing that is exactly exactly so so my advice is to um be a specialist for the stuff that you're working on right now and then learn how to quickly change specialties if you're going to work as a full-time employee like i have for the last 15 years yeah my advice is just become really really independently wealthy and then you can start your own startup that uses whatever technology you want to specialize in become a specialist in getting rich yeah

why are we even talking about programming languages oh you don't even need soft skills if you're rich because then people are all like sycophantic to you and wealth is everything you say is witty you don't you don't need to be funny i mean you are funny by definition because you have money and smart oh that's rich that's what people say when you make jokes. That's why I laugh at you, Jameson. Yep. Super rich. It always comes back to money with us. We need to have an episode on how to freaking get rich and we can just forget about everything else. The episode on how to get rich is all these episodes. All of them together will just make you rich. There's actually a secret code. If you follow the right sequence of time

slices from episode one through 24 you can get rich i thought you were going to say the secret where you just think real hard about getting money and then you have it that's also encoded into our episodes that very message well hope that helped oh man oh yeah i feel like we ended up kind of in the middle you got to do both you'll specialize by focusing for a long time by building stuff you'll kind of specialize in the things you use to build them and then keep in mind that there are exceptions to this rule like another couple of people that participated in the thread one was ryan florence he has specialized in not just front end not just javascript on the front end but react a certain web framework on the front end

he does training on this framework and has done very well for himself ever since he quit his job about a year ago and started doing this so he's you know he's specialized but guess what he told me he's like as soon as the react wave hits the beach and crashes i'm gonna have to find something else to do so you know that's just how it is so specialties won't last forever but don't measure yourself against someone who has chosen to dedicate their entire life to this one niche tool oh yeah and say well i'm not a specialist because i don't i'm not that you know yeah that's that's kind of the whole social media and happiness thing, right? You're comparing yourself against people's best version of their lives. You're great. You are a specialist. You're a specialist at being awesome

because you listen to this podcast. I'm a specialist at being special. I put the special in specialist. You sure do, Dave. So glad. Well, that's all I have. Do you have anything else? Me too. No, I believe this question has been thoroughly and completely answered it has you're something you're welcome dave how can people hear more from us well as if you could possibly want to hear more after all of this delicious audio you just heard but if you do go to soft skills.audio our home on the web you can get in touch with us there you can find links to send us direct messages to ask your own questions which we would be happy and thrilled to answer on the show and you can also follow us on twitter at soft skills eng our twitter

following has grown quite a bit um i think we're pushing 500 followers now which is great we're just so happy to have this big happy soft skills engineering family on twitter we're gonna need another bit pretty soon yeah we keep track of our twitter followers yeah going from nine bits to ten bits uh i'm glad you thought of that because it would have taken me longer binary math is a soft skill actually oh oh i'm unqualified we should do an episode on that i can't wait great thank you so much for listening we'll catch you next week see ya