Soft Skills Engineering - Episode 275: Take-home tests and doing my own recruiting

Episode Date: October 25, 2021

In this episode, Dave and Jamison answer these questions: Questions I’m a developer responsible for hiring other developers for my company. I’m comfortable interviewing and I feel like I can get a good grasp on whether the interviewee is technically competent. My boss wants us to give a take-home technical test to people after the first interview if we’re happy with how they interviewed and want to proceed further. The current technical test is time-boxed and is designed to represent the work they would do at our company. I worry that we ask for too many requirements within the current time constraint of 2 hours, but asking for more time will put people off completely. What can we do to make sure the technical test is fair and a good experience for candidates? Hello Dave and Jamison, I am a team lead at a rapidly expanding company. We have been trying to fill open head counts (>4) for over a year now, and our team is also handed some very important and promising projects, and because of that, even more open reqs for our team. Recently in our 1:1, I was pressing my manager to fill the openings ASAP but he told me our company recruiters are so busy that our team don’t have any dedicated recruiters, and my manager have been sourcing candidates himself for almost a year now. I was surprised by that and offered to help. I had read some materials from the recruiting team, got the tools set up and ready to cold email people I found on LinkedIn. My question is, how do I approach them in an authentic manner? I am proud of my company and our products, but how do I reach out to them without letting them know my primary motivation is get more team members to do the work so I can get more sleep? On the other side of the table, I feel those recruiting emails are cold and a waste of my time. So looking at the funnel I built, I don’t know if I can bring myself to start spamming others’ inbox.

it takes more than accidentally writing a sorting algorithm to be a great software engineer this is episode 275 of the soft skills engineering podcast i am your host jamison dance i'm your host dave smith soft skills engineering is your weekly advice show where we talk about all the non-technical things that go into the technical field of software development and we don't talk about any of the technical things like sorting algorithms never so we won't oh man i just i want to so bad though resist have you heard about bogosort now i have and it's ruined start the show over okay i won't tell you about it then but we can't start it over in order because that would involve

sorting of some kind not only do we not talk about technical things we don't do any technical things yeah which makes it let me just tell you it makes it really hard to use this computer every week to record this show yeah well there's just a it's like a series of what is it abacus are those the things with the little beads on the rods that you slide around yes but what is the plural of that word because i abakai yeah that's what i was thinking abacus and like boxing abacoxon yeah okay who knows it's not no that's not what this show's about yeah okay you want to thank our our tremendous sponsor dave yes this episode is sponsored by hired the best way for engineers to find their next job you'll hear more about hired later on this episode and all of the episodes are

also supported by our fantastic patrons thank you so much to the folks that we shout out every single week thank you to ian walter arun duna kashokton ohio this is dobby patron.com.au we're hiring ira chan monkey face emoji jonathan king testing is documenting.org roman denisov trans rights fizzbuzz influencer oladapo fadie karen sveinsen will angel ragnar harrison window dot alert open parens double quote you've been pwned double quote close parens nick hathaway travis sanders dennis bogdanov braden canes john grant taras haruk nick cantar philip john basile and bites of wisdom with a why if you would like to join this group you can go to softskills.audio and click support us on patreon and if you do the the joy in my heart will increase proportionally

to the dollar amount that you contribute but also the show will keep going uh we use the the patreon funds to fund the editing and and the what else does it fund the endless supply of cashews that dave demands to do his job it's true you know did you hear about the like the Van Halen writer with only brown M&Ms. Dave's writer is a bathtub full of cashews. That's right. This makes the editing a lot more expensive because they have to edit out all the crunching sounds.

Yeah, but without it, we wouldn't have this show. Yeah, so we do it. We just have to. Yeah. Thank you so much to those folks who've contributed. And if you do, you get to join our wonderful Slack community. That's true. Dave, do you want to read our first question?

I do. This comes from an anonymous listener who says, I'm a developer responsible for hiring other developers for my company. I'm comfortable interviewing and I feel like I can get a good grasp on whether the tech and whether the interviewee is technically competent. My boss wants to give us a take home technical test. Sorry, wants us to give a take home technical test to people after the first interview. If we're happy with how they interviewed and want to proceed further. The current technical test is time boxed and is designed to represent the work they would do at our company. I worry that we ask for too many requirements within the current

time constraint of two hours, but asking for more time will put people off completely. What can we do to make sure the technical test is fair and a good experience for candidates? Nothing. I've talked about this before and we'll talk about it again, but any decision you make in an interview process will just automatically exclude some group of people who will not, their real job performance will not reflect well in this fake test that you're giving people it's not a fake test it's a real test well the real test to do fake work yeah to try to figure out if they would be good at real work there you go yeah this this is a tricky problem because you're trying to abstract and everyone knows abstractions are hard especially developers you're trying to to look at

a short sample and figure out what their extrapolated years of work history or work performance will be like based on that sample. Well, I will say that 20 years of software development experience has taught me that creating bad abstractions is very easy. You said it was hard, but I disagree. Well, a lot of companies make a lot of money from bad abstractions too. Easy and profitable. Yeah. What can I do to make sure it's fair and is a good experience for candidates? So I think your instincts here of making the interview try to judge what the work Making the interview reflect what work would be like is solid.

There was this trend for a while about asking these esoteric brain teaser questions to just judge how quick someone was with the idea that people who do well on these random non-work related but challenging problems will be better workers. And the infallible data source in my head says that that was untrue. I have no sources or citations for it besides that, but I'm pretty sure... Listen, Jamison, my ability to conceive of a plan to get across a deadly chasm with a bridge that requires me to carry a torch across, and there's seven people that must cross and I can only carry that torch three times, is directly related to my ability to be a good software engineer. I, no joke, legitimately failed an interview with that exact question.

No way! yeah well not that it was some form of torch and people and limited times and yeah and i just i just stared at the board and scribbled a few times and then walked away it was just an awkward 45 minutes can you please excuse me i need to use the restroom and run out the parking lot and run away that's if i was smarter or more self-assured that's what i would have done but uh instead you came back for more i and i i would like to think that i am now smarter and more self-assured and would say hey i can do a good job at programming i cannot do a good job at this bogus interview question can we like test me on my work skills and if not then it's probably

not a good fit but i still feel like there's some part of me that's like it just wants to make people happy so deeply that i would never as soon as they asked me the question my worldview shifts to like oh this is a this is a valid judgment of how good i am at the job and i have to prove them right or wrong or whatever yes because they asked me to therefore yeah they asked me to so yeah therefore i must i must demonstrate capability at it or i have failed oh my gosh well anyways this is better than yeah a take-home test is better than that okay imagine a take-home test where you're solving a brain teaser the take-home test is count how many manholes can stack on top of each other to reach the height of mount everest

i'm just imagining people literally doing this i decided to be data driven i went out and collected 17 manholes that's all i could find in my neighborhood yeah the current technical test is time so it seems like the concern is that the test, although it's time box, which is a great first step, right? I've seen un-time box tests and those can be very stressful and exclude people who don't have unlimited time to devote to an interview. So time box, that's a good first step, but the requirements are many and probably don't fit in the time box. That's the vibe I'm getting from this question. I think there are conflicting requirements here. I think that you can't have a test

that represents the work you do and have a reasonable time box because when was the last time that you pulled a ticket out of jira and got it done in like two hours end to end finished you know like these things take time take more time than that i think yeah it's kind of like yeah just just saying hey here's this problem solve it in a way that proves how great you are but by the way don't take more than two hours because we don't want you to waste your time right doesn't make that conflict go away of of but it takes me time to show the quality of work i can do right how do we make sure the technical test is fair and a good experience for candidates one simple thing you should do though not easy is administer the test to your current employees

if you are serious about using this to evaluate candidate skill you should be able to tell if it would identify people who you know a lot more about that as as quality candidates and like if you know someone's a fantastic developer and you give them this test and they bomb it then uh you would have missed them and be prepared for the opposite situation where you're gonna have to fire someone boy you really delivered that critical business initiative but we realized that this two our test showed we made a mistake seven years ago and sorry you're out you haven't met our high hiring bar yeah that's a good point and you might say well that takes a ton of time like i don't want to just pull all my developers off of working on stuff to give them this dumb test and fake work

and guess what now you have some insight into what the person who you're asking to do the test is thinking too yeah and you'll probably give this test to i don't know if you're gonna hire or five people, you'll probably give it to 20 or 30 people. So think of all that time. Yeah. It sounds to me, Jameson, like you're coming down pretty hard on the side of the fence where there is no test that can satisfy these requirements. Am I reading you right? I don't think there's an objective test. I mean, you can probably tweak things to make it friendlier to some people or expand the breadth of skills it would recognize. But you're going to just,

Again, you're you're abstracting. So you're gonna miss somebody you're gonna either let someone through that would not do a good job at work Or screen someone out that would do a good job. Yeah, I don't know why that just fills me with sad feelings I feel like I want it to be perfect. I want it to be perfectly precise and accurate and it won't be Let us know when you figure that one out though. There's a bunch of money in that. Yeah Perfectly predict job performance. I mean there is a good way to perfectly predict job performance. Well, not perfectly i don't know if it's precisely or accurately but there is a way what's the difference between those two which one is the one where you never make any bad hires is that precise or accurate that would be accurate but i think you're talking about biasing towards no false positives avoiding

false positives yes and embracing false negatives yeah yeah and that's that's the default where you just any hint of anything that isn't an overwhelming positive signal you just say heck no and then you miss out on a ton of good people but convince yourself that it's worth it i think that's kind of the state of a lot of hiring in the tech industry right now so you want to hear my take yep i mean i think that's why you invited me today i thought you invited me oh wait who's in charge year i didn't bring any snacks that's the host's job interview tests i've done these so many ways i've done everything from i'll just like enumerate all the ways i've seen this done whiteboard code with a live audience painful in office tests without a time limit painful take home tests

for work that's representative you know that takes many hours painful and what i've landed But you don't see the pain. Is it painful for you? Yes. No, it's not. It's only painful for others. I mean, that's the definition of interviewing. Asymmetric pain. And what I have landed on is a take-home test that I limit to 60 to 90 minutes that is not exactly representative of the work that our engineers do every day. It is a choose-your-own-language. In fact, I had someone do one in Bash recently, which was amazing. I've never seen this one ever attempted in Bash. I've probably given this test to about, I don't know, well over 300 people. But I have to make it fun, small, and have multiple

solutions. When you do that, I think, and it has to be pretty predictive. You have to look back and say, did this test result actually predict people who did well in the job? And I think if you can do that combination of fun, small, and multiple solutions, you can do pretty good. In my experience, giving someone a problem that is similar to the problems you solve on your team every day but is small enough to not be a burdensome take-home test will not give you a good read on the person because it is by definition tiny and and you didn't you don't want to hire this person to do tiny little things like change the color of this button or you know rearrange this ui or something so anyway that that's kind of my my thing i've been doing that for a couple hundred

a couple hundred candidates over the last five years or so. And I kind of like it. When you say multiple solutions, can you talk a little bit more about that? What do you mean? Yeah. So for a couple of years, I did a coding challenge where you had to validate that a Sudoku board was a valid solution. And there's not a lot of creative ways to do that. You pretty much just kind of walk through all the rows and all the columns and see if all the numbers are there and and they're unique and so it wasn't a good way to see how the candidate thinks about writing code now i use a different problem which i'm not going to reveal it's the unobtainium tier of yeah sponsor of a patreon support which yeah exactly

it's the retirement tier anyway it it has like five or six totally valid solutions and they're all interesting and they all have different slightly different trade-offs and things to think about and talk about which makes it really fun in my experience there you go that's my take on it i i love that you said it should be language agnostic i think that's super important you probably write code at work in a specific language but you sure haven't cornered the market on that language has not cornered the market on smart people who can do good work bingo for sure do you have any kind of rubric? You mentioned kind of talking through design decisions. So there's some amount

of just kind of looking at the solution and thinking about if you like it or not, if I understand right. Do you have any sort of checklist of does it meet these criteria? Does it score this way on these certain axes or something? One of the reasons I make the problem simple and small is so that you can quickly assess whether the problem meets the requirements. And this particular problem it's very easy to not meet the requirements uh but but still produce correct or you know semi correct results and so you know it tells me about people's ability to handle edge cases people's understanding of runtime speeds you know like what's a super slow way to do something and a super fast way to do something okay so i can really quickly look at it but i also ask them

to write a paragraph about their solution so they can i can kind of see how they talk about their code because so often like we're doing pr reviews or we're chatting with each other about different approaches, especially in a remote world, we need people to be pretty good at writing about code. And so I read those along with it. And it's like, oh, if I get a really clear idea of what they were doing from their writing, then that's a plus one. I don't think I did this deliberately to judge writing, but I did ask people to include a readme for how to run their projects and kind of briefly talk about design decisions they've made. And that has been pretty high signal for meaning that people who write good readmes tend to uh do well on the job if we hire them well i like it you've

convinced me okay great i want to raise a caveat that's not the word nuance i'm gonna throw a wrench in things oh yeah so i've heard more and more man it's saturday we're off a day and i'm sick and normally i word real good and today i word bad accommodations interview accommodations oh there you go okay so some people might have a hard time finding time outside of work to do stuff what do you think about the idea of saying either you can do this time box test on your own time or come in an interview and if you haven't done that that technical exam beforehand we'll set aside a block of time in some time in your interview period for you to just do it then that way you don't have to like you you can kind of like schedule it into your interview process

instead of having to squeeze it into the rest of your day it doesn't make the time go away but it makes it so that you don't have to like i don't know find time while you're doing child care or traveling or whatever else you do in your non-work time you know yeah because i mean the fact is just to get another job it's going to take time away from your current job regardless right there's no way of solving that problem completely so if you can minimize that and compress it down yeah I love that. And I've done that a few times where people say, I want to do it this other way. And I'm like, no problem.

As long as I can get the data points I'm looking for, we can do it. Yeah. Well, you made it sound so easy. And I can't wait till the show's over and I can ask you what the test is and then shamelessly steal it. I'll sell it to you. I mean, be inspired by it. Yes, that's right.

Okay. Well, does that answer that question? I think so. Yeah. Okay. Hey, Jameson, have you heard about the Great Resignation? Is it that Charles Dickens book? Wait, no.

The entire population on Earth has started taking our advice of quit your job. Oh, yes, that's right. Apparently, we have achieved influencer status. We've been telling developers for years to quit their jobs, and now we want to tell you how to do it. We're ready to reveal the secret. I mean, you don't just walk out shooting finger guns. Yes, well, you do that first.

But after you do that, there's a new service we want to tell you about called Hired. What is Hired, Dave? Hired is the biggest AI-driven marketplace that matches engineers with companies. It is a great way to find your next job. I've been watching this industry for 20 years with a keen interest on hiring in particular, and I've never seen anything like Hired. Tell me about what you're seeing. So I've interviewed about 150 people in the last year, and I am serious.

Every candidate that's come to me through Hired has multiple offers, and they're incredibly high, scary high, like 30% higher than other candidates. Is that before or after the finger guns? yeah uh both the beauty is it's totally free for engineers uh and we would love for you to go try it go to hired.com soft skills to check it out hired.com soft skills quit your job the best way and check out hired all right would you like to read our next one i certainly would hello dave and jameson i am a team lead at a rapidly expanding company we have been trying to fill open head counts

greater than four for over a year now, and our team is also handed some very important and promising projects. Because of that, even more open headcounts are coming for our team. Recently in our one-on-one, I was pressing my manager to fill the openings as soon as possible, but he told me our company recruiters are so busy that our team doesn't have any dedicated recruiters, and my manager has been sourcing candidates himself for almost a year now. I was surprised by that and offered to help. I had read some materials from the recruiting team, got the tools set up, and ready to cold email people I found on LinkedIn. My question is, how do I approach them in an authentic manner? I am proud of my company and

our products, but how do I reach out to them without letting them know my primary motivation is to get more team members to do the work so I can get more sleep? On the other side of the table, I feel those recruiting emails are cold and a waste of my time. So looking at the funnel I built, I don't know if I can bring myself to start spamming others' inboxes. wow it sounds like this person has a soul not willing to be a spammer for now until you hear what we're about to say next yeah how much money does it cost for a recruiter i feel like i don't know how much recruiter salaries are especially in-house i know how the model works when it's external and you pay a percentage of of the candidate's

salary or the employee's salary yeah i suspect that you are an expensive and unskilled recruiter if you're a developer by trade that's a great way to put it so i admire your gumption at just rolling your sleeves up and trying to tackle this but this is probably not the best use of your company's money however it might be okay in the short term if if i don't know maybe the overall cost to hire on more recruiters and then spin them up and then get them allocated to your team is going to be even more than the cost of you not writing software, but figuring out how to recruit. And what's the cost of, what's the opportunity cost of having four unfilled engineering positions for a year? Yeah. Surely that's very high. Yeah. You should pitch your

company on the consultant model, right? If you fill these positions from sources that you provide, then that's rightfully some of your salary, right? Yeah. You should get a fee. I mean, i guess they're referral bonuses right yeah maybe that is sort of that type of thing i so my current job i work at a small software company and i was introduced to this company via a cold email from a recruiter ah so it can work yeah it totally can it once it worked at least once in my personal experience therefore it can work again yeah so i don't i don't think they're all that bad i think I had something flagged on my profile saying I was maybe open to new opportunities. So I got a bunch of stuff flooding in and would just filter through it all. And this one just seemed nice.

So I replied. Yes. And you know, on my last company, the recruiting team actually came to the engineers and said, Hey, would you please write these emails instead of us? Because we've found that when engineers write these messages, they get better response rates than when recruiters write them. And so I think one of the comments I'm reading in this question is, I'm worried that I'm not going to feel authentic or that I'm just kind of trying to sell these people on something wrong. But the fact of the matter is, I think people like it better when their peer engineers reach out to them. Also, the bar is low for authenticity, right? If you write a pretty inauthentic engineer-to-engineer cold email, it's probably not

going to say hey do you want to move across the country to work in java because i see you have a bunch of javascript experience and by the way this is a four-month contract right uproot your life take maybe a pay cut also do you know any friends that want this opportunity if you don't that's the bar yeah that's that's the authenticity average or median that you've got yeah to compare against that's so true so for what it's worth i've written these messages on linkedin recruiter and spammed them out to people and i got a lot of good responses and what i tend to do is i write the story of why i chose to join this company and why i stay and what i found is that people really like that they're like oh well that's cool you know and

And you should be unsurprised to learn that the things that attract you as an engineer to a company will probably be attractive to other engineers. And sometimes it's hard for recruiters to verbalize that. You know, they talk about the things that they can see, but sometimes, you know, and those things that they can see are often the superficial things like the pay, you know, the benefits and time off policy and stuff like that. But you as an engineer can say, look, I got to, you know, I'll just tell you when I was working my previous company, I said, look, I'm working on one of the world's biggest voice assistants. And I got to work on a unique problem in that domain that I don't think very many other people got to work on. And so that attracted me, you know, and so I use that and people responded very positively and they wanted to talk to me about it. And so it can be pretty effective. And so I would not worry about feeling inauthentic.

Yeah. How do I approach them in an authentic manner? I'm proud of my company and our products. How do I reach out to them without letting them know my primary motivation is to get more team members to do the work so I can get more sleep? I wonder how that would come across. Yeah, you could just say,

hey, the products are awesome. Our company is great. I just need more help so I can sleep more. I feel like that would be... That would be pretty awesome. Yeah, there might be a hint of work-life balance concerns if I saw an email like that. But also, I feel like it would come across

is fairly authentic in my experience recruiting authenticity is important and i think people really appreciate it even when you're transparent about the problems you have and if you say look one of our problems is work-life balance you know you got to be careful because you are selling at the same time but if you say these are one of the problems we're trying to solve by hiring and changing the way we work you might be surprised at how good people are or how well they would respond to that yeah i was just talking with you about this before the show dave that there's there's a comforting feeling i get when i start a new job and then i find out what the problems are where before i i think it's too quiet yeah it's like that scene in a horror movie where you're

about to get ambushed or something but now yep i realize okay this is a normal place there are some problems there are great things which is why i came here but also like i i'm not gonna be ambushed by by something horrible popping out at me because i i know kind of where the issues are so i have not worked at a place yet that doesn't have any areas of of concern or or problem areas so in a way uh pointing that out ahead of time is is helpful to people who think about work that way yeah maybe maybe i'm just not enlightened maybe i just haven't worked at the right place yet though the place yeah problems yeah that's it one day you'll find the perfect employer who doesn't even need you

but they like you that's why you're there yeah exactly we just want to pay you we like having you around and we don't have any problems for you to solve so looking at the funnel i built the good news is you can take advantage of the tragedy of the commons here right where email is a commons okay it doesn't cost you very much to send another spam email to someone's inbox it just makes email overall crappier but that means that if you send another spam email no one's gonna be like that's it email was fine and then i got this one cold email from an engineer it's ruined now i can't take it anymore and i blame it all on this person yeah so don't worry about it it's already ruined yeah you're not gonna you're not gonna ruin it anymore it's not gonna

get worse yeah yeah the that that grassland has already been grazed to to death yes it's just dirt now. Yep. Scorched. You're not going to make it worse. Oh, oh, I have one more idea. So like Jameson said, you are probably an unskilled recruiter. You're probably bad at sourcing and you're, you may be, you said you're good at assessing talent, which is great. Oh wait, that was a previous listener. Sorry. You probably are, but you're probably terrible at sourcing. You probably have no idea what the conversion rates are, what a funnel looks like and strategies for going out and finding people who are looking, you know, you're, you're probably going to be throwing darts at a dartboard and missing a lot of the time. This is where headhunters

come in. If your company is willing to spend 15 to 20% of a first year salary to pay a headhunter per hire, you can find really good candidates through headhunters. And they can be targeted to find the people that you want because they're super incentivized to bring people to you that will turn into a hire because they're only paid if you make the hire and keep them for some amount of time. So I would recommend going out and looking for headhunters who can be independent and get your company to sign a contract with them. So headhunt the headhunter. Yeah.

I guess that just kicks the can down the road. I'm bad at sourcing candidates, but maybe I'll be good at sourcing headhunters. Who sourced candidates? I don't know. Yeah. That is a good point about funnels and conversion rates. And that's some very job-specific skills.

Your skill is being able to talk authentically with engineers. So ideally, you'd be able to partner with someone who can handle all the other stuff of interview scheduling and screening and identifying if your conversion rates are good or not and targeting and all that stuff. But if you can just find a partner and say, hey, I'm happy to write some emails

or do some LinkedIn searches and send these emails out, I feel like instead of you taking on the recruiting process end to end, that still might help you provide some benefit without you, like, you put your efforts in the most effective parts. Agreed. You write the material that only an engineer can write.

You write the heartfelt reasons why you like this job. You can help write job descriptions that can be attractive to other candidates because you know they're attractive to you. And then let someone else handle all the other stuff. You can take out all the gross stuff that sneaks into the job descriptions about like, kill crushed moon scale and yeah, slip in a salary range. Some places legally require you to do that, actually, I found out. but I've found it very effective to include salary ranges

and I have not often asked for permission before doing it. And it works great. Be careful with that one though because you might end up letting one of your co-workers know that they are drastically underpaid. That's true. Yeah, that's a good point. Which would be good for them.

In the long run, yes, it would be good for them. If you have salary equity, is that the right term? I don't know. If you don't have any salary time bombs ticking, then that's a good thing to just do on your own and it's a good way to find out if you have any it's a very easy way to find out if you have a time bomb when it blows up yep crystal clear it's like in minesweeper yeah there's one way to find the bombs which is just click wildly until the screen explodes yep i did it solved it found one there's yep there's a bomb

there that's a new speed record yeah that's a good point i guess i'm looking at that through the viewpoint of a manager where i i know the salary ranges i should give more context on that i did not know the official salary ranges we could offer people i knew the salary ranges of people on the team and so i could kind of just fudge that a little bit into a vague range and then i put like dependent on experience and location which gives enough cover that that i was very confident that nobody would be astonished in a bad way if if the number was not what they expected but probably better to do that officially if you can in other words leave it to the professionals is that what you're saying well they they're busy that's true i i sympathize with this so much because i've been

in the situation where there there's no support at all from any kind of recruiter any sourcing or hiring is 100 on the engineers and engineering managers and it's a lot of work to do well and you usually have a lot of other work to do well also so this is a tough situation which is why i love the the solution that dave you talked me into proposing which is you you give some help but you don't take responsibility you help your manager with sourcing but you don't say i will find interview close and and sign all these candidates can you imagine if this person shows up to his manager to the manager and says all right i've made three offers they've been accepted in writing here they are one of them negotiated pretty hard and i beat him so you'll

see yeah there's there's a few we're gonna have to give up a few percentage points of equity to them so please call the board yep do it they signed already don't worry this is extreme ownership it's a good thing there's a whole book about extreme extreme ownership is taking some of that equity and giving it to yourself too for doing such a good job hiring i'm an owner listen just five percent yeah no problem the company to bring on these three candidates and for my troubles right all right okay i think our question is answered what can people do if they want their own questions answered go to our website at softskills.audio and click ask a question and we want to say

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Aren't all legacies burdens? Yeah, that's so deep. We better end now. Thanks for listening. We'll catch you next week. We'll see you next time.