Soft Skills Engineering - Episode 313: Parents are fighting and hat-removal

Episode Date: July 18, 2022

In this episode, Dave and Jamison answer these questions: After six years at my first job out of college, I took the foolproof SSE advice and quit my job last year during the height of the pandemic. I landed at one of the Big Software Companies and learned that I negotiated very well for pay within my role (in large part, thanks to this podcast - yay!), but I am way overqualified compared to my peers and should have attempted to come in at the next software engineer level (oops). To get promoted I need signoff from my fairly new manager and the very tenured principal engineer (PE) who has historically run the team. My manager and the PE are frequently in disagreement, and send me one-off slacks to make requests that are directly at odds with each other. I’m squarely aligned with my manager’s prioritization which frequently puts me at odds with the senior PE. Yikes. The senior PE frequently overlooks technical complexity and business context, and gives far more technical opportunities to the men on the team. I don’t like his mode of leadership, and so do not want to mimic his style. Unfortunately, he’s very respected by the VP+ level so I worry that friction with him will swiftly crush my dreams of promotion. The parents are fighting. I’m caught in the middle and feel like I’m aligned with the side that is at a political disadvantage. Is there any hope of success for me unless they can magically start to get along? I joined a small team as a developer a few years ago, and was asked by management to help introduce some formal processes to the team to help us release a project that has been in the works for a number of years. With the team’s buy-in, I introduced SCRUM, and started playing the role of Scrum Master and Product Owner. I may also be the development team’s functional manager in the future. It seems that having the roles of 1) developer, 2) scrum master, 3) product owner, and 4) functional manager is too much for any one person to do well. With a primary role of functional manager, which of these other roles would make sense to hold onto? Which roles would be better to either hire replacements for or coach other team members to take over?

it takes more than using the word performant instead of fast to be a great software engineer this is episode 313 of the soft skills engineering podcast i'm your host jamison dance i'm your host dave smith soft skills engineering is a weekly advice show about all the non-technical stuff that goes into the technical field of software development and i think deciding which word to use when you mean fast is non-technical so this does fall within the scope of this of this podcast i believe performance javascript frameworks love to use the word performant instead of fast and then i did some googling and apparently it doesn't mean performant it doesn't mean fast it means like good what sufficiently oh i mean okay google says functioning well or as expected yeah but they

I feel like the the context I see it used in is always like speed speed yeah and then it just it's like fast but worse it's a worse word we need to shift the culture so the word performant now means performance art performed perform art I don't know this card doesn't seem performant enough yeah it sounds like it sounds like you're just mumbling really badly like you have some some strange local dialect accent or something yeah back on the old farm we always said perform art these cows are not very perform art that's not what this show's about it's not about cows though even though those are sort of non-technical do you want to only to the layperson yeah that's true there's there's

probably a lot of technique and technology behind cows for sure okay yes i do want to thank our patients our patron our patients both yes thank you for your patience all right let me just see if i can get this done really performantly i mean performately we have uh weekly shout outs to memester josh owen shardle craig motlin i love mazes mavis the stochastic parrot andrew pollack arun dhuna koshaktan ohio patreon.com.au we're hiring ira chan monkey face emoji jonathan king testing is documenting.org oladapafadiyi will angel my neighbor has smelly feet nick hathaway travis sanders brayden canes nick cantar john grant and philip john basile sorry i read those i i read them out of order and my brain just refused to let me go ah if you would like to

join these people who contribute so much um man the words are just they're growing great today this is an example of perform art yes welcome i hope you enjoy the performers if you would like to join these people go to soft skills audio and click the support us on patreon button where you can contribute any dollar amount which will get you an invitation to our slack community which is a very performant community i would say it is functioning well and as expected yes it is it is good it is a good community yes yes good if you contribute at a level high enough we will say your name or an emoji or any word in any language that is appropriate and safe for work that you choose every week on this show and you can't put a dollar value on that so you're coming out ahead

no matter oh yeah contribute infinite roi yes yes yes this episode is sponsored by revelo which is a great way to hire engineers for your team and you will hear more about them in a bit if you're dying to know more right now you can go to revelo.com soft skills all right shall i read our first question yeah please do okay this one comes from an anonymous listener who says after six years at my first job out of college i took the foolproof ssc advice and quit my job last year during the height of the pandemic i landed at one of the all this is this is title case big software companies and learned that I negotiated very well for pay within my role, in large part thanks to this podcast. Yay. Hey, you're welcome. We've had a lot of people tell us, by the way, just a quick

aside. We've had a lot of people tell us that they negotiated for higher pay. We have yet to receive a commission check. I just want to throw that out there. Okay, continuing on. But I am way overqualified. Why is this funny, Jameson? It's funny because I titled this question, parents are fighting and this feels like a very parental guilt trip like i'm not saying you owe me anything but you do owe me your life and existence and i would appreciate a little gratitude by way of commission check which is how i'm not mad yeah just disappointed and that disappointment can be can be assuaged through dollars that's right okay continuing on i am way overqualified compared to my peers, and I should have attempted to come in at the next software

engineering level. Oops. To get promoted, I need sign up from my fairly new manager and the very tenured principal engineer, or PE, who has historically run the team. My manager and the PE are frequently in disagreement and send me one-off slacks to make requests that are directly at odds with each other. I'm squarely aligned with my manager's prioritization, which frequently puts me at odds with the senior PE. Yikes. The senior PE frequently overlooks technical complexity and business context and gives far more technical opportunities to the men on the team i don't like his mode of leadership and so do not want to mimic his style unfortunately he's very respected by the vp plus level so i worry that friction with him will swiftly crush my dreams of promotion

the parents are fighting i'm caught in the middle and feel like i'm aligned with the side that is at a political disadvantage is there any hope of success for me unless they can magically start to get along hmm so wow the parent trap is about making the parents fight uh-huh so that they break up i guess it's not the parents making making the mom and the stepdad fight is that what it is just trying to think of oh yeah this feels like it's so close to plots of classic movies but it's not this is more just like a sad life experience that a lot of people that has no hollywood lessons to be learned yeah nobody makes fun movies about kids whose parents get divorced and they have to pick between them where can we turn for moral fabric if not hollywood i mean i

i feel like we're a ship a ship without an anchor here well next we go to the office the other source of age-old wisdom is there a hierarchy here it's like sports movies then action movies then the office well at the top of the the list is always phrases my dad said a lot to me as a kid I don't think I listened very well. Just can't remember any of them. Okay. Yeah. So getting back to the question, you've got a principal engineer who has to sign off on

your promotion. You've got a manager who has to sign off on your promotion. And it's like the two key turns, you know, they have both keys have to turn at the same time, I think. Yeah. If this is the company that I think it is, and I think I know what company it is, the manager helps write the promotion, if not totally writes it, like the documentation and the PE is one of several people who have to sign off.

All it takes is a no from one PE to tank any promotion. So that's the situation we're in here. But your PE has bad technical ideas and no business context and little sexist. Yeah. And bad leadership style. Oh man, this is like, this is no good. Yeah, have you tried being really bad

and then maybe you'll win the approval of the principal engineer? If you can't beat him, join him. Is that what you're saying? yeah like yeah copy all those bad attributes well it says principal engineer and then it says pe in parentheses afterwards and i didn't add that that was there in the original question which makes me wonder is this a principal engineer and also someone in private equity or physical education oh man so many options yeah also if you get the promotion they will

invest millions of dollars in you but your life you have to make yourself worth yeah your life be horrible right and you know why it's going to be horrible why they're gonna they're gonna tear you apart and sell the components you'll have to learn to get along with zero kidneys and they're gonna lay off 40 of your fingers yeah i so one other thing is this question is from about a year ago and it says i quit my job at the height of the pandemic last year and it's it wasn't we're still we're still there everyone thought this was the height yeah so maybe the foolproof ssc advice of quitting your job maybe that will age poorly as life goes on oh yeah undoubtedly have you

the only idea i have is just like tell these two people that you want to do well but you're getting competing suggestions i so so you say that the p overlooks technical complexity in business context gives more technical opportunities to the men on the team that's awful and bad and i i'm going to skip past that for a second to talk about the first piece which is it overlooks technical complexity in business context do are they overlooking it are they abstracting over it or do they not know it like i don't know part of me is is hoping there's at least some amount of merit to this person's role and they're not just horrible at their job and and maybe they're overlooking technical complexity for example because it doesn't seem complex to them to their

their galaxy brain right everything looks simple when you have a galaxy brain yeah i guess i guess the point of this is i wonder if there is either more context you can provide to the principal engineer private equity person or if maybe there's something that you are missing right like maybe they have a different sense of technical complexity or business context and you can learn some of that to understand their worldview a little bit better don't learn to give more opportunities to the men on the team though like that i'm trying to say like see the world through their eyes a little bit more except for that part not that part okay you might disagree or have different perspectives on technical complexity but it's possible that you could learn new information that that might

be valid from their point of view, you know, instead of just dismissing it out hand. Yeah. I'm going to join you on this path for just a moment and explore it before I tell you my real advice. But I have something to add to that. It is possible that this person has an uncalibrated view of what complexity really is at a big company. When you say this person, do you mean the question asker? The question asker, yes. You know, in the question, it says that the PE ignores overly complex, overlooks technical complexity, it could very well be that this PE has a higher tolerance for seemingly complex software solutions because of their experience as a PE at this big mega company. And what I mean by that is that sometimes the problems

that need to be solved at these mega huge tech companies are so big in scale and sometimes complexity but most of the problems i saw were easily stated hard to solve meaning that like the problem statement itself the list of requirements small but the solution space is like huge very challenging to to solve at whatever it is high volume large throughput you know things like that low latency yeah these kinds of constraints that make sometimes seemingly unnecessary complexity actually necessary so take that you know and and see if that helps and sometimes it just takes time to calibrate on that yeah they mentioned i think i cut this part out they've been here nine months when they asked the question so okay i guess they probably have

had some time and exposure with this person yeah nine months is not very long at one of these big tech companies i mean it could very well be that after nine months you still have an uncalibrated view of how much complexity is is too much complexity yeah and and i i had that experience when i joined one of these big companies i was like what what what's the point of this you know and then i realized like oh saving five milliseconds on this api call is actually a huge deal yeah and i'm like you know coming from a startup i was like we don't care about five milliseconds yeah you know like do not care yeah but at a big tech co it's like no that's everything yeah if it takes you more than five milliseconds of human time to fix then it is a waste right so that that is the

only that's probably the only part of the question where i'd say the question asker might not be calibrated right yeah they're again it's possible that this pe could just be bad at at their job or is possible but i think i'm assuming just a little bit that there is some capability and skill here that especially if they're recognized at the vp plus level that that could be very political but it i'm assuming that there's some something to back that up that they are actually good and capable at some things and if you can find that common ground of where they are capable and and where you like agree with them then that's easier to work with on so as in real life when your parents are fighting you get them together at table you sit down with both of them and say

listen parents i six-year-old child i'm feeling pulled in two directions by you and i need you to align together so that i know what to do the this is a very perform art six-year-old a highly functioning six-year-old who can mediate conflict between they're two parent figures yeah i think you need to talk to both of them about this separately and maybe even together but uh your manager should know that you are getting one-off dms from this performant engineer principal engineer oh that's what pe stands yeah i was trying to remember it and your manager should know like your manager is responsible for the output of the team and if you're off doing stuff because this pe has asked you to that isn't

kind of in alignment with their output, they're still going to be accountable for how you use your time. So they just need to know to do their job. But also they might be able to help mediate between the stuff the PE is asking you to do, the stuff your manager is asking you to do. But they should be your partner in this basically,

in helping to prioritize and align on what to work on and especially to mediate between like two different ideas of how to do stuff. And I think it's fair to say to the manager and to the PE, like, hey, I want to be promoted. and I don't know how that's going to happen if each of you are telling me opposite things and both of you have to say I did a good job like how do I right how do I do what is useful for this company and do it in a way that you will see the value in if if you have very different perspectives

of what I should do okay so I have a different perspective on this one than you yeah Jameson I'm curious to hear it because not all six-year-olds are as capable as I was when I had to do this for my parents man if you were that good at six man i just it's been downhill since i peaked at six you peaked so i'm i have through context clues i believe i know what company this is yeah and knowing that informs my opinion a lot any other company and i would go with what you said. But in this case, I think you basically have two options. You either have to get your manager to align with this principal engineer because the principal engineer is going to win, or you're going to have to go find a new organization to get promoted in where there

aren't roadblocks like this. Because I've known many people who get stuck at a level unable to promote because of circumstances like this. And it just happens sometimes. Getting promoted is not always strictly the effect of being an excellent contributor it is also a it is also an effect of your environment and the constraints that are on you in that environment it's like it's like you're a plant that grows really well like you might be the best seed in the world but if you're in a bad spot in the garden then maybe you won't blossom yeah like for example if you're if you're a plant and you're anywhere in my care then you're in trouble your days are spent in agony crying for death to come faster as you slowly not reaching your potential yes

just tear all my leaves off and get it over with so so that's that those are your two options i think so in the organization i'm thinking of the principal engineer absolutely has the trump card and wins every time yeah your manager either needs to align to the principal engineer or not. And if they don't, that manager's days are also numbered. That's interesting. Principal engineers, especially those that have the VP respect levels, they run the technical show. So if you're getting conflicting direction from a PE and your manager, first of all, they do need to align. But what needs to happen is your manager needs to align to the PE. That's just

how it goes in this particular organization. Having said that, and knowing that that might not be the case here, but if it is that company, then that's my advice. Any other company, I think, go with what Jameson said. Get the two to talk to each other, reconcile the differences, and then you might have a fighting chance at promotion. Yeah. Well, have we answered it? I think so. Good luck. I do want to know if Dave's sneaking suspicion about which company this is is correct. That'd be interesting to know how finely attuned your detector is.

Hey, Jameson, have you heard how easy it is to hire engineers right now? Given infinite dollars, it is easy to hire engineers right now. I don't have those. Yeah, it's tough. I want to recommend a company that helps you hire engineers in Latin America. It's called Ravello. Tell me about it. I've been hiring engineers in Latin America for the past two years, and they are awesome. I've worked with a few different companies who provide engineers from Latin America, but none of them were really great. I recently discovered Ravello. Ravello helps you find skilled software engineers in Latin America. They only provide full-time

senior engineers with at least five years of experience. They don't force you to pay for things you don't need, like a project manager. This is really interesting. Their pricing is awesome because they charge a monthly fee and you know how much they're paying the developers. So there's not a lot of indirection there, which is not common. Sometimes you get these opaque invoices and you have to figure out how much is actually going to the developer, how much is going to the company. They do the sourcing and the vetting, and you can interview the engineers before deciding if you want to work with them. And they take care of payroll and benefits, which is great. Yeah, I highly recommend hiring engineers in Latin America. It's a huge untapped market for a lot of U.S. companies. All of Ravello's engineers speak English, and the time zone is one of the big wins. If you're based in the United States, the Latin American time zones line up really well with U.S. time zones. You don't have that painful 24-hour turnaround problem when you have a question for an engineer on the other side of the world.

Yeah, I worked with wonderful engineers that live on the other side of the world and both of our lives were worse Because someone's always up at midnight. So this is great. Check out ravello today You can go to ravello.com soft skills to check it out. That's r-e-v-e-l-o dot com slash soft skills Okay, should I read our next question? Go for it This is from an anonymous listener who says I joined a small team as a developer a few years ago and was asked by management to help introduce some formal processes to the team to help us release a project that had been in the work

for a number of years. With the team's buy-in, I introduced Scrum and started playing the role of Scrum Master and Product Owner. I may also be the development team's functional manager in the future. It seems that having the roles of developer, Scrum Master, I closed the question, developer scrum master product owner and functional manager is too much for any one person to do well with a primary role of functional manager which of these other roles makes sense to hold on to which roles would be better to either hire replacements for or coach other team members to take over oh wow that's a lot of hats it is i tried to fit in haberdashery in here in like the weird question title that we add on the on the that we publish and then i found

haberdashery is generally like men's accessories not just hats i thought it was just happy but it's like oh it's like ties and other stuff i think and apparently the british definition is totally different yeah not surprising yeah they probably add some uos switched around in there too yeah they want to do so what are the roles here again let's recap we got developer scrum master product owner and functional manager yes that seems fine yeah i mean why so why so few the standard head that fits four hats or four heads on one person so four different hats four heads four hats no problem i think in in my experience there's always some amount of hat wearing and juggling that comes with the role of when you say functional manager here i assume

this means engineering manager but some of that role is like and do the stuff that isn't getting done that might be someone else's role or a different role in an ideal situation. So some amount of hat wearing or role juggling is inherent, but this is a lot of roles. And the most overwhelmed I've ever felt has been when I had the most roles to do myself and felt like I couldn't do any of them well at all. So this is a bummer. Sorry to hear that. Yeah. I mean, developer, don't do that one that's easy yeah just let that one go yeah i think i'm being serious i mean that's so it's a well-trod path that's a standard thing to go through is as you become a manager you stop writing code stop contributing uh individually technically and so that one you have a lot of supporting

evidence to point to to say it's not weird that i'm not doing this anymore like i can't do all these things and it's pretty normal to have the manager be less active in development sometimes true people or teams i guess or companies get enamored with your development skills and and feel pain at the idea of you not doing that anymore so it might trigger some interesting conversations about like can can we live without me doing software development as an ic and if the answer is no then like okay then i guess you're not you're not going to do all these other things But that's that's like the normal one to give up. I think that's i'm surprised actually to hear you say that Or actually you could try to give up number four, which is the manager

So they make you the manager and you say great. I have too many jobs. I'm not going to be the manager I'll delegate this part to someone else but still retain the title and everything else and so you become manager just long enough to Get access to the hr systems where you can give yourself a raise and then shed the title exactly like you know But my favorite part of management is the software development. So I'm going to keep doing that stuff and leave all the other stuff that I'm not as good at to other people. My second favorite part is where you get to write yourself your own salary. Yeah.

That's true, right? If you're on this person's team or if you're this person? If you're this person. Oh. Don't you write your own check when you're a manager? That's what I thought. You can always write your own salary if you believe in the power of positive thinking hard enough.

Nothing stopping you from just writing down $1 trillion like on your desk. If you mean to get paid that, then I have not seen that. Oh, okay. No. Yeah. They give you access to the source code for your payroll system and then you just add a couple if statements. That's the standard.

As long as they're performant enough. Yes. So you opted to drop developer and just go full on management. i thought you would go the other direction i i mean well i think scrum master is a made-up thing well okay it's not made up in that it's it's a real thing that people do and i have not seen value from it in my personal experience although i am aware lots of people like it so i guess you haven't seen value from a dedicated person whose title is scrum master is that what you're saying i have not but i believe it exists but my my implicit bias is to say like well you actually

only have three things written down there even though you have a list of four things one of them is made up so so now you have to contend with three only yeah but this person introduced scrum and i assume knows a lot more about scrum than i do and and believes in the value of it more than me a person who says that it is i guess i just said it's worthless by saying the role is made up i don't know look jameson you don't get to be you don't get to have the word master in your title if it's just made up yeah fair point obviously all right i'm convinced okay of course all these titles are made up at one problem is if it's fake then not doing that will save you the least amount of time too like true you're not doing the fake job anymore okay

your life is the same the same right you know of all this list of the four items here you know one of them may be made up okay fine there's one here that to me doesn't fit with the others and that is product owner and it may depend on what your definition of product owner is and i know some people like to split hairs between product owner and product manager i'm seeing this as product manager that's the one i would i would ask to have offloaded to someone else i think because you're probably a great developer you're probably a great functional manager you know how to lead other developers and scrum master is made up so you can do that really well but quite frankly as a developer you're probably not a great product owner

is my guess and and i think your potential for being a great product owner for most developers is probably less than being a great at these other roles i'm assuming that this is a technical product like it's it's not the fact that they have asked you a developer to i think i'm reading this as you're already the product owner or maybe you you put yourself in as the product owner as part of scrum i think that's the thing right don't you have to i think that it's product owner is a scrum term that's first first context in which i heard product owner was in either scrum or xp or one of those agile methodologies but either way i'm assuming that that means it's it's something technical that you have some context on so it's you're not like the product owner of of like a

line of vacuum cleaners or i don't know right right right so maybe that makes it easier to have a perspective on it but i agree i was assuming that it's not the case if it is a technical product i think it might make sense for you to be a product owner more so than otherwise but now that you point this out i was in this situation of having three roles and i guess i had infinite if i wanted to add on fake roles okay i was also the the barking dog trainer and i i do not feel as badly about scrum as i'm making it sound i'm sorry and product owner was the world i felt like i was the worst at or product manager to use a different term that's the role i felt like boy if i had more time i would be doing more than just the bare minimum

of like scrambling to get anything here whereas if i wanted to contribute as a developer i could jump into the code with like an hour or two and do something useful and i was spending more dedicated time on the functional management stuff but i did feel the most out of my depth as a product manager the problem is when i was doing this it was at an org where product was not valued it wasn't seen as a valuable role worth investing in and worth spending a bunch of time on which which brings a lot of follow-on problems but it also makes it hard to say we need to hire someone for this because the people i'm saying this to are saying but why it's like you're doing why why hire someone if you're already doing it and me saying but i'm doing a really bad job at it

it's not a compelling argument yeah so i think i think i'm agreeing with you and also saying i wonder how easy that would be to offload to someone else depending you're saying depending on the org, it might be hard. It might be hard to offload. Yeah, because maybe it's hard to muster up support to hire or give off or give a product role to someone else. It's also hard because if done well, product roles have a huge influence over what you build. And that's a hard thing to trust to some outside person that you bring in. If you're like hiring for this role, you're handing over a lot of the direction of the team to someone else. And that can that can be tough as well yeah so just don't write code i guess okay back to your answer i i think

that's easier to pull off even if it might not be the best answer i mean i don't know i feel like i had really good advice and now it's gone so i think maybe maybe the meta point here is it doesn't actually matter which one you shed yeah just like get out a dartboard and put four pieces of paper run it yeah yeah i could i could see that i mean it's i feel like there are different sub specialties of engineering manager where some of them combine i'm trying really hard not to use this stupid dungeons and dragons metaphor here about subclassing or dual classing i mean oh i like that there's there's the engineering manager who is also very involved in project management and and kind of like keeping the projects running smoothly

and status reporting and having people know what to work on and that kind of stuff. There's ones that are still very involved technically as kind of the tech lead slash engineering manager. I think there are also EMs that are product-focused EMs as well. I haven't seen anyone do all of those at the same time,

but I think there is room to say I'm an EM and I also really like to and provide value in this other area. But it probably depends on what your team could do well without you. Okay, so you're saying take a look at the team, look at what skills exist, take a look at your hiring opportunities, if any, and what roles you think your company would support you in hiring for, put that together and identify the gaps, and then step into that gap and be that person. Is that what you're saying? I think I'm saying in general, yeah. In this case, I guess the opposite of like

step out of one of these because you figure out where someone else could fill in best for you. Like maybe the highest value thing for you to do here is to be the functional manager and the scrum master because those are things that your team need the most of and would do the worst at if you handed them off to the team

or something like that. Another thing you should do is ask your team what they're interested in because sometimes interest... is a good predictor of skill. They're like, oh, I've just always wanted to be a product owner. You know, great.

There are developers who want that and wanting it sometimes makes them do a really good job with it. Yeah, that's a good point. With a primary role. So can I fit in a quote from high output management here? I think I can.

I'm always on the lookout. I guess it's not a quote. This is a paraphrase. High output management is a great book about management by a person who worked at Intel for a long time. I think was the CEO of Intel. Yeah. And it's sort of, I guess now might be kind of old school ish. It's not part of the new wave

of engineering management books that have come out in the past few years, but it is great. And one of the points that Andy makes in the book is that the output of a manager is the output of their team and the output of organizations around them that they're kind of peers with. So I think this agrees with the meta point I was making earlier that like, what will make your team have the most output focus on those things as as your own kind of leverage points right maybe for you that is developer and functional manager like maybe that's where they need the most help and so that's where you're where you'll provide the most value so at the end of the day it depends it's do the thing that will be the best i think that's what i'm saying obviously think about the thing

that would be right and then do that thing perfect i think we've we've just answered all questions in the future i guess so good yeah so i guess we're done with the show forever maybe that can be the new motto especially if you can't quit your job and get a new one as easily anymore it's like it's it's just do what's best for your circumstances think about the thing that's right and then do that thing figure out the right thing to do and then do it perfect so let's catch you then quit your job and get a new one yeah let's catch you harder to apply harder to do easier to quit your job and get a new one then figure out the right thing and then do it sometimes yeah exactly okay well any other

wisdom to add to this question dave i got nothing i'm all tapped out i have some but i want to save it to not seem like i'm showing off you're so humble it's amazing what can people do if they want their own questions answered, Dave? Go to softskills.audio and click the ask a question button. And as always, we want to say a heartfelt thank you from the bottom of our hearts for all the questions that come in every week. We love you. We love your questions and thank you for keeping them coming. Thank you. We will catch you next week.