Soft Skills Engineering - Episode 332: Layoff + baby survival and 18-year-old CS graduate

Episode Date: November 28, 2022

In this episode, Dave and Jamison answer these questions: My company recently had a big layoff - about 40% of engineers are gone. My job is safe (for now). About 6 months ago, I was promoted to a “Staff”-ish position that I’ve been really enjoying and looks great on my resume if I hold it for a good length of time. Besides just enjoying my job, I’ve just moved house and I have a baby on the way, so I’m highly motivated to have some stability (and get paid parental leave.) My gut says give it the 9 months to see how it all plays out - but my brain thinks my gut is an idiot. Interviewing while taking care of a newborn for the first time feels like an incredibly difficult thing to do and the job market may not be getting better. Do you have any advice for how to navigate this situation? Big fan of the pod! How should I approach being slightly younger than my peers at the workplace? I graduate in December with my bachelor’s in CS but just turned 18 a couple of months ago. I’m actively interviewing at big tech companies and plan to start working as soon as I graduate. Should I avoid the topic or would it be completely inconsequential for my peers to be aware of my age? I’m looking to move up the ranks quickly, and can imagine many developers wouldn’t love knowing their manager is in their early 20s. For what it’s worth as well, I haven’t been open about being slightly younger in my university setting, as early on I noticed professors didn’t respect my contributions as much when they were aware of my age. What’s your take?

it takes more than declaring browser tab bankruptcy only to discover that the only copy of your aws secret key was in one of the tabs to be a great engineer this is soft skills engineering episode 332 i'm your host dave smith i'm your host jameson dance soft skills engineering is a weekly advice podcast for software developers about all the non-technical topics that go into software development like browser tab organization yeah like using your browser tabs as a password manager yeah slash secrets manager slash slash to-do list production system yes slash continuous integration system yeah do not close this tab or we will have an outage it's really important this web socket stays yes we have one socket keeping this service alive

yeah i i was feeling smug and satisfied about my tab state a couple days ago and now it's it's back to normal it's rough i felt good because i started using tab groups and pinned tabs yeah yeah and that's that's just enabled the mess too there's more real estate for tabs fractal yeah cool more tabs excellent yeah exactly there are tabs inside tabs now yep yep cool a place to put all the 40 vim tabs i have open you know it's bad when all of your tabs look like pinned tabs because you have so many yeah yeah you can just tell it's a tab you can't tell it what the icon is even yeah it's so bad woe is me too many tabs oh there's there's chrome profiles now oh there's a whole new place for tabs yeah how many layers of tabs can we add here profiles groups pins

i think we need a few more layers and then if you use like spaces or desktops or whatever the if your os has some version of that you have a separate like browser window oh i just think of the software engineers in the 60s who were programming the first computer and if we could show them the complexity of all the pixels now they would just be like oh oh yeah it's yeah yeah their ui was the printer that they waited for it yeah yeah the only tabs we had were the tabs on the manila folders that i put in the filing cabinet to hold my punch cards oh i'm nostalgic for days i've never experienced sounds cool um that's not what this show's about though right now it's about thanking our patrons

which i will do thank you to valentina datafold santa hopar noah frazier loge kent c dodds memester josh jenny kim owen shardell craig motlin i love mavis the stochastic parrot alice just that was cheating jameson question mark land fair pool i always think land fair yeah i know this part and then i get lost something something go go go kashokton ohio patreon.com.au we're hiring ira chan monkey face emoji jonathan king testing is documenting.org oladapo fadie will angel rocket chip emoji but rocket ship is hyphenated ragnar nick hathaway travis sanders brayden canes john grant cody sale nick cantar and philip john basile thank you so much to all of you we really appreciate it uh and also the podcast um is a thing you can listen to thanks to the support

of these people they pay for our hosting and editing and other costs that go into producing this and we thank them with our words and also by inviting them to our slack team where you can join as well if you contribute any dollar amount at the soft skills.audio patron go to soft skills.audio click support us on patron and if you contribute a above whatever the number is in there that i can't remember then we will shout you out every week it's big and it's really always constantly in our hearts but once a week verbally the last thing on my mind before my head hits the pillow and i snooze off for the evening is all the names of the patrons yeah beautiful people i go to sleep with a big smile every night yeah do you want to read our first question yes this comes from an

anonymous listener who says, my company... Oh, by the way, this is a little bit timely. Little preface on this one. For years, we've been saying, quit your job and you'll get a new one, obviously. And now you don't quit the job. The job quits you, sadly, for many, many engineers. Okay. So this one was timely. It's about layoffs. So here we go. My company recently had a big layoff. About 40% of engineers are gone. My job is safe for now. About six months ago, I was promoted to a staff-ish position that I've been really enjoying and looks great on my resume

if I hold it for a good length of time. Besides just enjoying my job, I've just moved house and I have a baby on the way, so I'm highly motivated to have some stability and get paid parental leave. My gut says, give it the nine months

to see how it all plays out. But my brain thinks my gut is an idiot. Interviewing while taking care of a newborn for the first time feels like an incredibly difficult thing to do and the job market may not be getting better do you have any advice for how to navigate this situation shut up and digest gut that's what the brain said stay in your lane do your job yeah yeah what a what a world from a year ago i know where a year ago the answer would be like i don't know it doesn't matter yeah you'll be fine fine

yeah so there are policies at some companies about tenure requirements before you get parental leave this might be governed by by your country's specific law but in the u.s the law around parental leave is like they're not allowed to kill you if you have a child but everything else is is fair game basically this is called at will life we can kill you for any reason or no reason sign here please the state of delaware requires you to sign this just so happens the pencil has the the pencil what kind of stuff am i saying well space law We sign everything with pencils in space.

You've heard that story about the Americans spending millions to invent a space pen that writes upside down and the Russians using a pencil, right? You've heard the story behind the story of like the graphite can float around and get on some electrical contacts and cause fires. No, I did not hear that. So there was actually a good reason for the zero G pen. So I've heard, yeah. the reason is to not start a fire in space which makes a bit more sense you know the longer the longer these stories go the more they evolve and they're like oh well have you heard about how the graphite actually solves a bunch of problems you know it just goes on and on yeah those fires the

graphite yeah it gives you a healthy glow right it makes you fireproof anyway i don't know where you were going with that but it felt like it was going to be good before i completely destroyed it we'll never know i'm assuming it was going to be great though like like everything i say right let's get my manager today so if if i were company big layoff staff i think it depends a lot on how big the company is which i'm assuming it's not very big because if it's a large company not named twitter and 40 of the engineers gone yeah we would have heard about it yeah that's a pretty big deal yeah my job is safe for now six months ago before i went to staff so if the company is is large and you feel like it's it's i i don't know i'm totally i have no

idea where this person works but i don't know assuming that it's like cisco or some it's some giant company okay yes they've laid off a lot of people but it's it feels unlikely that this will be the end um it's it's a reaction to changing conditions and times but people will still need routers and stuff okay i used to get cisco the food company confused with cisco the networking oh you mean cisco america's leading marketer of quality assured food service products yeah yeah that one the one that semi semis full of food into elementary school yeah the reason i know that is because i my junior year of high school in calculus class our classroom was just above the loading dock for the trucks that brought the cisco food into the cafeteria

and every day i saw that slogan cisco they're america's leading marketer of quality assured food service products i thought that's the worst slogan i've ever heard and yet here i am it was really can yeah and thanks thanks to that anyway it was really convenient when they phased out the pledge of allegiance for the cisco slogan and you had a head start i remember those days we all stood on first period hand over the heart and said the pledge to cisco to the trucks yeah it was a dark time in american history if it's either the food one or the networking one i assume people still need food and networking so you're probably not it's not gonna disappear by the way that it was actually it was cisco the food company and cisco the router

company that joined forces to bring us doordash to route your food they were like we have this unique good the venn diagram the overlap here is a food delivery service on demand that uses an app and the internet. It was the perfect union of two otherwise unconnected companies. We are so good at

congestion control. Yeah. And we're so good at delivering food by our powers combined. They missed an opportunity to be by calling it DoorDash instead of Sissis Coco. Just like embed one of the

names inside the other one okay well anyway back to the question which i actually can't remember now baby new house layoffs general general state of things so the the brain wants you to do what and the gut wants you to do what i need to choose which side i'm on but i can't remember their positions the brain wants you to interview okay the gut wants you to stay just just chill so why why does your brain want you to interview and i'll i'll just ask the only organ in your body that's capable of answering which is also your brain you know this is unfair because if you ask the gut a question it has to go through the brain yeah and who knows what kind of spin they'll put on well the gut can produce output but it's very

hard to understand that's that's very true i've tried reading it before it doesn't make any sense to me i mean it looks like crap anyway this is gone this has gone on too long so your brain says you should go get a new job or else you're next you should preemptively lay yourself off by finding a new job before the layoff strikes and your gut says chill you got a baby on the way you can't handle the stress right now and you want that sweet sweet parental leave yeah i mean they didn't mention parental leave but i'm assuming that that they get no they did yeah it says paid parental they did yeah paid oh yeah okay never mind i just it's there your gut didn't want it to be there but your brain saw it yeah yeah well that's my eyes i think i think this

question boils down to do you have confidence that this company is going to be a good employer for a time period that's greater than your situation here and the time period it's funny that says my gut says give it nine months and i thought what a coincidence that's how long it takes for a human baby to gestate and then i realized that's not a coincidence at all so yeah like you know worst case scenario if you stay is that they lay you off you don't get your parental leave. And now you're in a really high stress interview situation while you've got a newborn. But worst case, if you quit now, is that you also have a high stress interview situation while you have a newborn. But it's a little bit lower pressure because you actually have a job.

You're saying if they can't find a job the whole time until the baby's born? Well, I'm saying there's two scenarios here. One is that you get laid off and you're forced to interview. Another scenario is you choose to interview right now, even though you haven't been laid off. And both of those are stressful situations, but because you have a newborn baby. But interviewing without a job is like 10 times more stressful than interviewing when you already have a job, in my opinion. Yeah. And then of course, the third option is do nothing. No interview is nothing. Just pretend like the industry is perfect and you're never going to lose your job and that is that is a valid option but i think those are the three yeah what would

i do i think i would stay put honestly i would stay put and plaster my well maybe you work from home so change my slack picture to a photo of the ultrasound if you have one because you don't have a picture of the the child out of the womb yet but like you want to make sure that anytime there's a big list of names on his spreadsheet someone can look at your name and go oh yeah person a baby soon and and at least if they lay you off they have to remember that they're doing it to someone who's about to have a baby so you need to use your your gestating infant as armor i think to protect you i see so pull on the heartstrings yeah yeah it's like you know how in those buddy cop movies it's always somebody's last day before retirement and it's their most epic adventurous

day yeah or they die oh oh like oh i was i was just about to retire and the tragic i don't know you want like the opposite of that like this does not make any sense it's my fault i'm the one who started saying this now i'm realizing wait a minute there's nothing here i don't know i i think my original point it was that i would stay put if i were in this situation because i my my my instinct would be to batten down the hatches yeah and the upcoming parental leave i think would would motivate me as well where a new place i joined might not give parental leave yep and also there's not necessarily i mean if you go interview right now you could still get laid off right when you have a brand new baby. That's exactly what I was thinking. And I was

thinking, you know what sucks? Getting laid off from a company you've been at for a bunch of years. But you know what sucks even worse? Getting laid off from a company you've only been at for three months. Because the severance is going to be crappier, the resume looks worse, and you just barely got done doing all that interview and you got to do it again. Super demoralizing. You can be a more likely target of layoffs if you are newer at the company. It's not always, but sometimes they will target based on like reverse tenure of just, it'll hurt less to lose this person because they haven't developed as much expertise in our systems. Yep. And a lot of times severance packages are, the size of the severance payout is based on your tenure. And so

you actually get a burn rate reduction sooner by firing less tenured people in your layoff. So another bullseye on your back. Yeah. So if you're going to get laid off, get laid off from this company right i think that's yeah and then the other thing is that you have more access to information about your current employer than any other employer like you could go start turning over some rocks and see what you find you know get the rumor mill humming in your in your be in your behalf to try to find out if there's more layoffs coming and you know based on what you learn there you could actually it could influence your plan this is a dangerous maneuver but there are times where there will be like offers for i don't know what they call buyouts

or something like that yeah voluntary attrition or that's a different thing but like the company says hey we want to pay fewer people anybody want to not work here anymore in in some form or another and and usually that comes with some offer of severance and some kind of carrot to make people interested in it yeah and and by the way i i don't like that as a as a leader i don't like that approach because who are the people that are going to accept that offer they're the people who feel the most confident that they're going to be able to go find another job which are typically your best people you know yeah i don't i don't like incentivizing your best people to leave but sometimes it happens anyways and yeah that's true you don't want to say hey are there laughs

coming because if there are i would like to be a part of them please right oh really but it it is potentially an option to like very delicately feel this out and decide oh laughs coming anyways i may or may not be a part of it but like put put me in coach like yeah i'd rather have the certainty and the severance and the ability to plan for the future for sure than the uncertainty right i don't think i'm recommending that i'm just pointing out as an option that you could take yeah i would stick it out also one other thing i want to point out is this says give it nine months to see how it plays out like you just got to get through these nine months and then your problems are solved oh yeah but actually in nine months then you'll have a newborn no no no the hardest part of

raising a kid is just the pregnancy obviously yeah the rest of it smooth sailing yeah if you're trying to like stick it out for stability until things smooth out i mean you have bad news it's yes it's it's never smooth but i feel like especially those first yeah couple years it's not like six months in you feel like oh now now i've now we've got it down and yeah it's sort of when they start being able to talk a little bit more and be a little more self-sufficient that that i have found it less personally overwhelming but you're much more than nine months away from that is my point yeah exactly this nine month timeline feels a little arbitrary i mean life life is going to be crazy no matter what and no matter when you choose to make big changes in

your professional life so i'm i'm tempted to say take that off the table but at the same time i would agree with you jameson i would probably stick this one out stay at the company as long as i can until i feel like i'm in a more stable place i i and i really do think this is just a huge a lot of this is attributable to the the tech environment where if it's if it's harder to get a job then the current job you have is more valuable that's right the relative value so and i do think we're in that situation and do good work you know try to be really really valuable it might not work out for you but it certainly doesn't hurt yeah yeah well good luck congratulations on the house and the baby yeah it'd be cool if the house came with the baby well like you bought

a house and you get a baby it's like in a in a some pod like a sci-fi thing don't worry we got one brewing for you we know a house is a lot to take care of so we've given you a human baby maybe maybe a year ago again like when the real estate market was at its frothy peak then they would be throwing in babies as as as what i don't know incentives to close i'm like where are you gonna go with this i know i just i'm like you can't just throw in a baby for any reason that i can think of all right you've convinced me all right okay has the question been answered yes great just throw a baby in next time and we'll we'll get a better answer yeah do you want to read our next question jameson yes this is from an anonymous listener who says big fan of the pod

how should i approach being slightly younger than my peers at the workplace i graduated in december with my bachelor's in cs but just turned 18 a couple months ago i'm actively interviewing at big tech companies and plan to start working as soon as oh i graduate okay upcoming i am actively interviewing at big tech companies and plan to start working as soon as i graduate should i avoid the topic or would it be merely inconsequential for my peers to be aware of my age i'm looking to move up the ranks quickly and can imagine many developers wouldn't love knowing their manager is in their early 20s for its worth as well i haven't been open about being slightly younger in my university setting as early on i noticed professors didn't

respect my contributions as much when they were aware of my age what is your take well you're you're not yet 18 no you're 18 years old and you're going to graduate in a month with your computer science bachelor's degree that's a little ahead of schedule how old am i my 36 35 i'm either 35 or 36 hopefully hopefully it's not more often that and i still haven't graduated my bachelor's in cs oh yeah we've talked about this yeah i'm i'm being lapped so yeah you're double this person's age yeah should i avoid the topic they're gonna know how old you are i don't think it matters if you avoid it or not if you start working at a big company they will know how old you are not necessarily like oh this person is 19 not 21 or whatever but

they'll know that you're a whippersnapper yeah they will i don't imagine like i don't think it's a thing that you would be able to hide just talk a lot about 9-11 like like you were alive back then i don't know yeah they're gonna oh you're right this person was born a couple years after that it and it is possible so i'm looking to move up they wouldn't love knowing their managers in their early 20s yeah if if if trying to figure out how to say this without sounding like a grumpy old man i feel like at this part of your career it is important to concentrate on getting good at the work especially the work of being an individual contributor i am i did not graduate with a degree in cs at 18 so clearly this person has enormous talents and skills but it does seem like they're

like and i'll work for a couple years and i'll be a manager then i'll run the place yeah and and that feels like a weird vibe no matter how old you are well i mean so maybe first of all i think we should just pause a moment and say congratulations on being on such an accelerated track like this is impressive you've you've really achieved some some really cool stuff here i mean this must mean that you graduated from high school earlier maybe a couple years earlier than your peers or than the typical than like the median graduate age and you appear to have burned through a university bachelor's degree in about half the time as well on top of that. So very impressive. You're clearly very bright and very academically gifted. And what I hear though in

this question is perhaps a slight misunderstanding or maybe not misunderstanding of what it means to quote, climb the ranks. Because in software engineering, it is actually not... What's the right way to put this, Jameson? But moving up, so to speak, and I'm using air quotes when I say the word up, in software engineering does not necessarily mean going into people management. There are some very influential, amazing engineers who have never managed anyone else in their career. And so I just wanted to point that out as an option on the menu for you, because if you're listening to this question, you might want to know that that's not the only track and you may still get resistance. And it certainly is easier to be on the individual contributor

career ladder as a young person moving up than it is to be on the management ladder as a young person for this exact reason. You know, like people reporting to you are older than you and you don't feel comfortable with that and they don't feel comfortable with that. but there's probably a lot of other stuff you don't know as well you know that just takes time to absorb you know and that's why i think sometimes being eager to jump on the people management ladder at a young age may not be the best approach yeah yeah that was a little bit of a windy answer wasn't it you said something about i don't know i don't know if this is the right way to say this or not i would just like to say it was the right way to say it i i give you my stamp

okay great approval i mean one of the questions they explicitly asked is should i avoid the topic oh right inconsequential and and i think it would be weird if you tried to keep it hidden like i i don't know if you like uh scribbled bags under your eyes or something oh you mean like artificially inflating your age yeah added artificial wrinkles right right oh man i my back is so sore yeah i must have slept wrong just never reminisce ever yeah but i think if there are concerns about your age i feel like they will be in relation to like therefore they don't they don't know enough to do thing x or or tell i don't know support this conclusion on thing y If you could just be right and convince people, it should matter less, though not none, how young you are.

You do have to overcome, if you have a lot of experience, sometimes that just adds weight to things you say. Because you can say, I've seen this before and rattle off a bunch of different incidents or instances of similar situations. You might not have those from personal experience. you you might be able to like invent them with your brain like come up with them or i don't know like make up for the the lack of experience with the the ability to just think very quickly about and clearly about about like why this is right think quickly and clearly is not our forte here on the podcast yeah that's that's what i'm feeling right now me too i think it's a sign of age there's a there's a point here and soon i will get to it i think you you

should try and strike a balance between you don't want to come off as arrogant yeah whether you you you could very well not be arrogant at all and still come off as arrogant by being very very smart and very very accomplished at a young age uh so so you might have to kind of like do a little bit more work to bring people to your side to convince them of of your viewpoint on things or spend more time asking questions to understand the current context or something like that like if you can avoid giving people a reason to think like oh this question asker they don't know anything they're only x years old you know because they'll they if they can instead remember the times that you dug deeply into this problem and work to understand the reasons why things are the

way they are and like if you can present a reason it's sort of like just being convincing and persuasive i feel like that will probably be more important while you are younger than than folks with at similar stages yes their careers that makes a lot of sense to me and i've actually encountered this form of resistance for being a young but ambitious and not really ambitious but hyperactive young engineer you know not and when i say young i mean not a lot of years of experience And maybe I should tell a little story about this, but it took me a few years in my early 20s to realize the source of some of the friction I felt from some of my more tenured peers at a company I was working at where I was very excited about software development.

And I would do a lot of it. I would spend a lot of time doing it. I'd wake up early and do it. And then I would, I was just, it's a thing I talked about in my spare time. It's what I really wanted to do in my, when I had just, you know, less than four years of experience in the industry. and uh i remember i got some kind of rude comments from some of my software developer peers who had been at this company for years longer than i had and it really shook me a little and i remember

thinking like oh i need to i need to chill out i need to not be so excitable and so enthusiastic about all of this because i was like yeah i'll lead that project or i'll do this and it's all just because i was having so much fun you know yeah i actually consulted my manager about it my manager basically said, who cares what they think? You're doing great. And I realized, ah, okay. And it kind of took me a while to piece it all together, but I did realize, yeah, that resistance does exist and it will exist for this person undoubtedly in some form. And you'll just have to find a way to either ignore it or somehow counteract it until you get to be more the shape of what people expect you to be, you know, which is unfortunate, but you know, that's kind of how

bias works yeah it's it's sort of like i feel like there's some parallels here with the the resistance you might feel as someone like new to a company coming in with big ideas to change stuff where there might be some eye rolling about not knowing the constraints of the system or not understanding how this is going to make things really hard and you haven't you haven't felt the pain enough to know how naive this sounds and that happens i think at many different ages and career milestones just when you're new to a specific company or even a new place in the same company and it's it's a tricky balance because you can be too conservative too like there are yeah there are superpowers you get by being new to be able to just not have the same built-in assumptions that

that some folks who've been there a while have that might be wrong there's a really good book i'm reading with a book club at work called kill it with fire there's a section about refactoring where they bring in a new engineer and the manager tells the engineer, just go wild and fix stuff. There's this system that people had been very scared to touch because it was very gnarled.

And with great boldness, this engineer went in and just like shuffled stuff around in a way that was pretty fast and ended up being effective. And it really surprised the engineers who had been there for a long time because they felt like this system

was so fragile and delicate that that it couldn't be it couldn't be saved like it was just too expensive and too slow to touch and it it seems like they were maybe a bit too conservative in in that assumption so i feel like what i'm saying is you should you should know when to push yeah don't push on everything don't push on nothing too perfect you've been enlightened yes it's like a zen moment the the wise centrist logic of jameson i feel like any any problem any situation my brain says oh this is really about a spectrum and there's these this stuff on one end and this stuff on the other and the answer is like just kind of go in the middle dead center anything yeah yeah just draw a line and then move to the

middle of that line do whatever's written there yes exactly well i to answer the very specific question here i would say do not go around advertising your age but also if that's one end of the spectrum see where i'm going here yeah okay and yeah on the other end of the spectrum there is do not lie about your age and right in the middle is where you want to be actually you just want to do both of those things you don't want to cover up your age but you also don't want to go advertising it and so if someone asked i thought you meant both as in like both lie about it and advertise it at the same time you just got to muddy the waters advertise a lied a live version of your age that's like that that's like in this case lying about your age would be the

reverse of that meme where the the old man is dressed up as a teenager with a skateboard walking to your high school and saying how do you do fellow kids you know that one yes it's the reverse meme i'm old that's like the toddlers in a trench coat trying to buy an r-rated movie ticket yes hello mature 18 year old fellow yes i'm one one we are i i am one of you yes we are i mean i am hello fellow adult we are also fellow adult yes anyway i think you're gonna have a great time it's gonna be a great career you're very bright don't i would say get this idea of quote climbing the ranks out of your head what you should have in your head instead is how can i do valuable and helpful things for others and the ranks will climb themselves if you

are a valuable helpful supportive teammate that everyone thinks is great and of course if you're if you want to be ambitious and climb the ranks fine but i just think if you go in with that target you're going to be disappointed yeah i think it's okay to be ambitious and and certainly see cases where merit is not just uniformly recognized by by praise and higher dollar amounts, but I think it'll rub some folks certainly the wrong way if they get this vibe that you're here to step over them. Yeah. I'm here to use your skull as a stair step on my career. That's the attitude you want to avoid. So thanks. Thanks for your skull. Thanks for the skull. I'm now eight inches higher.

Well, have we answered the question? I think so. Good luck. And I'd love to have you check in in a few years to see how things are going. This is the kind of career I like to keep an eye on. I actually hired someone this age once who was not yet 18 years old. And this person's parents had to come in and sign some of the papers to work for us, which that was a first for me in my career. So I have no problem hiring bright people who have very little experience or even aren't even are still minors. Actually, I guess in my case, did great work for us. We just got to get rid of those pesky child labor laws. I know. So you can come crawl inside the data center and sweep the dust bunnies out that's right not get not get ground to bits by the fans we need someone

with really small hands to reach the cords through these holes all right what can people do if they want their own question answered go to softskills.audio and click the ask a question button there you can fill out our form and as always we thank you to everyone who fills out that form each week and keeps jameson just loving life for one more week you're keeping him going that sounds dire when those questions stop coming in. Thank you so much. We do appreciate reading them. We learn from them. Thank you for listening. We'll catch you next week.