Soft Skills Engineering - Episode 371: After Mary Poppins and credit denied

Episode Date: August 28, 2023

In this episode, Dave and Jamison answer these questions: Kate asks, Hi Dave and Jamison! I’m in a situation where my predecessor, Jane, was a super helpful “Mary Poppins” type. She did anything and everything beyond her role for the sake of being a team player. I was told she even went as far as providing homemade snacks for meetings. I, on the other hand, am a one trick pony; I only do the tasks I’m paid for. I’m often indirectly compared to her and worry I’ll be seen as an inadequate despite doing my duties well. Should I go with the “ol reliable”? Or wait to see if her legacy fades? Thank you so much!! I’ve been involved in a project (architecture, design, code review) that has been ongoing for several months now, and I’ve put many hours and days supporting the project success, but only on the engineering side and not the PM. The obligatory announcement email blast came not too long ago, and my name was dropped from the pretty long list of people who have been involved with the different aspects of this project. On one hand, I feel that I should have been acknowledged for my contribution to the project success, especially when exposure to LT is at play here, but on the other hand I don’t want to play politics at work, I want to make great products for our customers while learning a lot and working with smart people. My question is should I care? I hate the fact that it’s even bothering me.

it takes more than endlessly reviewing a bunch of similar frameworks and never picking one to be a great engineer this is soft skills engineering episode 371 i am your host dave smith i'm your host jameson dance soft skills engineering is a weekly advice podcast for people who just can't pick that framework because a new one comes out before you can complete the research on the old one not even that can you really know a framework unless you've built a major application in it so you're saying that shipping to production is the research i think so yeah you just have to ship to production a bunch of times with a bunch of different frameworks yep or you're risking making a poorly informed decision yeah it's kind of a one-way door paralyzed by that sometimes

yeah yeah like how much i mean there's a pretty hard limit to how much you can find out in some cursory research versus real production use of the thing and yeah maybe the thing you picked really is way better but you'll kind of never know yeah exactly you just have to make a choice and go with it i guess i guess you do know because once you pick it you decide that it is way better right that's confirmation bias it has a purpose it saves you money it saves you from having to compare stuff yeah all right should i thank our patrons go for it Thank you so much to Nick Kantar, Braden Keynes, John Grant, Travis, Nick Hathaway, Oladapo Fadye, Ragnar, Jonathan King, Webtau, AwesomeN10Testing, Will Angel, MonkeyFaceEmoji, Ira Chan, Patron.com, We're Hiring, Tuscarawas, Ohio, I Practiced, Craig Motlin, I Love Mavis, Alice Jost, Owen Shardle, Jenny Kim, Cody Sale, Kent C. Dodds, Noah Frazier-Logue, The Re-Elect Jameson Dance Committee, Santa Hopar, The Re-Elect Jameson Dance Boogie Brigade, and TheComputerScienceBook.com, and Trash Panda. I don't know why I said and for the second to last and the last one.

Double and. It's like, yeah, it's the next evolution of the Oxford comma. That's exactly what I was just thinking. The Jameson and. The double and. It's the Oxford and. Yeah, it's actually grammatically correct in my house and slowly will spread. If you want to join this list of people, hear me mispronounce their names or whatever they put in,

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show going help pay for expenses around producing it so thank you we really appreciate it we don't have any yachts yet yes yes the podcast has not achieved the yacht level of success but few do and we hope to join those ranks so one day yeah it'll be a land yacht because we don't live anywhere near a land yacht is that just a couch what is a land yacht it's like a couch on wheels it's motorized well i know to achieve that we need to answer some questions do you want to read our first question dave yes this comes from a listener named kate who says hi dave and jameson i'm in a situation where my predecessor jane was a super helpful mary poppins type she did anything and everything beyond her role for the sake of being a team player i was told she even went as far as

providing homemade snacks for meetings i on the other hand am a one-trick pony i only do the tasks i'm paid for i'm on oh i'm often indirectly compared to her and worry i'll be seen as inadequate despite doing my duties well should i go with the old reliable i think i know what you mean by that or wait to see if her legacy fades thank you so much oh no oh man the snack how do you know what was the name jane how do you know jane wasn't being paid for the snacks ah maybe these were i mean you could ask for a snack based raise yeah well i mean i'm just thinking about a world where you you know when you sell a product to consumers it costs one thing and then you sell that same product to a company and it costs 10 times more i was thinking you could

make a lot of money that's called enterprise support exactly i was thinking enterprise snacks oh no no these aren't brownies these are enterprise brownies they're 15 a piece it's 30 000 a month to get a regular delivery of brownies and my commitment that i will make more if you ask for them look i even made a pricing web page for it you have one brownie 50 cents you know if you buy the two brownie plant plan they're 40 cents a piece and if you want the uh enterprise version contact sales oh i've i've definitely felt inadequate compared to people i was i was replacing or not even replacing but used to be there and and heard references to i have not felt this specific

thing of they they made homemade snacks jane used to bring brownies kate where are the brownies we used to have brownies at every sprint planning yeah well steven used to knit us all mittens every winter what have you done for us jameson besides the work you're paid to do yep oh man it is so painful to follow an overachiever yeah maybe they burnt out maybe that's why jane doesn't work there yeah jane's like oh if i have to make another pan of brownies for this stupid scrum master i'm gonna lose my mind oh i mean there there's there's what is fair which is you shouldn't compare yourself to someone else who did a bunch of stuff that wasn't part of the job and what is happening which is

other people are comparing you to someone else who did a bunch of stuff that wasn't part of the job yeah i don't i don't know how helpful the advice of just don't worry about it is but Just make the team some brownies and move on. I think that is true, though, that, yeah, you don't have to do the stuff your predecessor did. I know, but the expectations, Jameson, how do you deal with the crippling expectations? I suspect there are things that you do better than Jane, but it's kind of a faux pas to say, boy, Jane really sucked at this thing. We're so glad that you do this better.

maybe jane was covering for like all the bugs she was introducing by bringing in treats every time there was a new bug yeah yeah that's fair it's possible yeah what do you what do you do i'll be seen as inadequate despite doing my duties well i mean if you're doing your duties well that's what matters and maybe maybe you can you know how they say uh what do they say uh the best revenge is good living something like that yeah i don't i don't think there's any revenge needed here, but doing your duties well for a long period of time, I think your coworkers will appreciate you more for that than for, I'll just use the term gimmicks, even though that's a little bit harsher of a term than I mean to use here. But I mean, here you had a coworker who was doing

their job, presumably okay. I don't really see anything about the performance, but also doing gimmicks on top of the job. Now, like I said, gimmicks is a little strong because this makes work fun. You know, sometimes you do fun things for your team, you bring in snacks, you do extra little nice things. And actually, I think everyone could benefit from doing a little bit of that from time to time to make it, you know, to just make it pleasant. But no amount of snacks, homemade snacks or otherwise, can compensate for someone who doesn't do their job well. And over time, i really don't care how many plates of just absolutely phenomenal kolaches you bring into the office if you how many what oh what is that oh jameson i think i'm gonna recommend to you a

restaurant and your life is about to get better oh i've been there i just have never said this is one of the long list of words that i've never said out loud we just reduced that list by one they're yummy yeah they're they're like stuffed what are they stuffed roll biscuit things yeah they're like super soft the ones i've had are like super soft rolls filled with delicious meats and cheeses and sauces and from the outside they just look like a roll but then you bite in and it's like oh this is so much more which is a metaphor for how we all should be you get to know me and i'm so much more yeah i'm full of delicious surprises okay i totally threw you off no matter how many plates of delicious piping hot kolaches you bring into the team if all you do is make the

team miserable because of all the bugs you're delivering or the not getting tasks done and they have to hold your hand and finish things for you it just doesn't matter you know so while while it certainly is nice for someone to do that the best thing you can do for your team is be an excellent contributor until the memory fades i'm going to take a different angle at it which is that you don't have to people are not perfectly interchangeable and everyone brings their own personality and preferences to the role and i i know that kate and jane are different people and it sounds like just have different approaches to work and that's that's fine i've fond memories of lots of people that i've worked with that doesn't mean that i wish everyone

i worked with now were like the people that i have fond memories of so i think another way to look at it i mean i'm often indirectly compared to her i guess that i'm kind of saying maybe they're not comparing you but kate is saying i am indirectly compared to her so maybe this all is useless but well isn't that kind of the subtitle of our podcast maybe this is all useless i think you can hear people say nice things about someone who used to be there without thinking, I need to do that, or that's criticism of me not doing that. And I'm saying this to you while being utterly incapable of achieving that. Like, make no mistake here.

In other words, you would read the situation exactly the same. Yeah, yeah. But I think if you can recognize, is there a concern about your work performance? And so I could see a lot of these super helpful Mary Poppins things being helpful for morale, for example, or relationships with people. And is there some kind of higher level outcome you can tie them to? Like maybe Jane got along really well with people and that made it easy to collaborate on bug fixes or work well with the designers on projects or I don't know. Some outcome that you could try and achieve. Anytime there was a conflict, Jane just started singing a spoonful of sugar and everyone just got along.

a spoonful of tickets make the project manager makes production go down makes production i do love the idea of deploying on a friday afternoon and then just floating off on your umbrella like goodbye children production is broken i can't hear you children what's mary poppins gonna pull out of her bag this friday afternoon i don't know yeah i think if you can look at if you can look at the outcomes that that you feel like need to be achieved you can achieve those in a different way maybe maybe this is a management role and maybe that kind of stuff helped bring the team together and there's lots of ways to bring a team together that don't involve being mary poppins so you could find something that fits your personality and style

goodbye children sorry that's all i can think of it's mary poppins i say this um prepped to begin a friday deploy soon after we record so that's perfect my umbrella is at the ready so i i kind of want to address what some might consider the elephant in the room here but you know most Most engineering teams tend to be composed of men. And here we have a woman on the team. And it's like, well, Jane was a woman and Jane brought in snacks. You're a woman. How come you're not bringing in snacks?

And I worry that that might be playing at play here. And I don't think it's your job as the woman to deflect that. But I would like to advise all the men listening to not fall into that little trap and think that all women must behave the same, you know, even if they are rare on your team. and I might suggest that they're rare on your team because you're reacting this way potentially because you have an unspoken added requirement that is gender based

for bringing in snacks exactly every woman we hire quits after two months of interacting with me I don't get it yeah that's a good call out that there's definitely a potential for gendered expectations here and frankly I mean

without following Mary Poppins uh but but yeah certainly could be exacerbated by that it could be anyway so cut cut that right out that's just dumb yeah but i i do think you know the question basically says should i should i quit my job or should i wait to see if the legacy fades the legacy will fade i'm quite confident in that well it will never disappear but you know there will always be times like oh remember remember jane and her delicious piping hot licorice that she made from home that took three months of labor-intensive work and every christmas she brought in this delicious anyway that will never go away because people like that stuff you know and so you'll hear about it but

i'm gonna kind of giving the benefit of the doubt to the commenters here but i would hope that they're not saying that to try to persuade you into doing it they're doing the same thing that she did yeah i really hope that and they could be like some some unconscious bias here yeah maybe unconsciously i don't know i'm thinking about it i have pretty rose a rose-colored view of the world sometimes and maybe this is one of those moments but if they are trying to pressure you to do that i would oh man i don't even know how to advise you but that's just garbage maybe that's where you quit your job is try to determine if this is subconscious or conscious and if it's conscious maybe make your way out of there if it's subconscious just let it fade and deal with

the unfortunate situation yeah how's that for crappy advice it's great for crappy advice just pull your umbrella out of your bag and float away i so i lived in in brazil for a couple years when i was younger and i would move every few months and kind of like take the place of someone who's there before me and there were times where i definitely felt like this where i remember hearing someone say oh the person who was here before you could do a backflip like oh okay i mean i sure can't and they weren't saying directly hey you need to be able to do a backflip but it was sort of like the legend of the predecessor was so great and marvelous and like well here i am i can talk words i bet you could do a kickflip on a skateboard though i have landed very few of

those i never got kickflips down i could do heel flips better than kickflips but also couldn't do them now so yeah yeah maybe i should have tried that and said is this what you meant by backflip flip a skateboard over what if you but i do remember oh go ahead no no you go ahead i was just gonna say i do remember that fading and and people still had fond memories of my predecessor but it wasn't every day like jameson every time i look at you i just think there goes someone who can't do a backflip yep so i think it is i think it is more acute right now when you're yeah when you're maybe newer in the role what if you lived your life where every time someone said oh hey your predecessor could do x and you would then spend the next year becoming an expert on that

topic just just double down into it yeah yeah you okay yeah your goal is to be the nightmare of everyone after you yes it was up to you yeah exactly why why shoot for mary poppins when you can shoot for i don't know world conqueror oh she she brought in homemade snacks eh well i started a garden and grew these plants it took me 10 years to grow the trees that produced this super rare plant i had to i had to install hydroponics in my home to generate these because they don't grow naturally here in this climate yeah i that's cute that jane brought in snacks i actually turned my neighborhood into an autonomous nation and we're joining the un pretty soon so sorry if stuff is late sometimes i'm trying to vote in the security council

okay have we answered this question oh not well but it's at least all we got to offer best of luck why don't you read our next one all right i will read it and this question will forever be compared to the previous one yes this is from an anonymous listener who says i have been involved in a project in the architecture design and code review stages that has been ongoing for several months now i've put many hours and days in supporting the project's success but only on the engineering side and not on the pm side i assume that means product or project management yeah that's what i thought obligate the obligatory announcement email blast came not too long ago and my name was dropped from the pretty long list of people who had been involved with the different

aspects of this project. On the one hand, I feel that I should have been acknowledged for my contribution to the project's success, especially when exposure to LT is at play here. I think LT stands for leadership team. Yeah. But on the other hand, I don't want to play politics at work. I want to make great products for our customers while learning a lot and working with smart people. My question is, should I care? I hate the fact that it's even bothering me. see there you answered your own question i think at the very end yeah should i care yes because you hate the fact that it's bothering you is that what you're saying sort of i was thinking more like the opposite oh like no wait no you shouldn't care i mean if if you hate the fact that it

bothers you that that it wasn't there then maybe you shouldn't care about it i guess that's what i'm thinking just don't let it bother you lol i know that has never in my life ever worked for me just don't let it bother you yeah saying this thing is bothering me i i now i choose for it not to bother me are there people like that there probably are huh there are probably people who say i just am i have decided that this doesn't bother me anymore i've chosen not to be troubled by that anymore you will not hold me captive you annoying thought i can do it with effort and time maybe there are people who do it like superman stepping into the phone booth just instantly like yeah and no longer bothered yeah because i can fly because i'm superman exactly what could possibly bother

me i'm invincible and i can fly and turns out not a lot can bother you when you're invincible this would bother me getting getting cut out yeah if it was a long list of people and i felt like i'd contributed for quite a while yeah i mean there's also probably an upper bound of how long the list could reasonably be yeah so maybe maybe if this is a thing that thousands of people have touched and then there are lots of other people in your position but if if if it looks like the list is pretty complete without me i would be even more bothered how so what do you mean by complete without you if i knew oh this is like a fraction of the people that worked on it and and i don't know

how exactly they got picked but i didn't get picked to be included in this list but so a bunch of other people are in the same boat i think i would be bothered less than if it felt like say i have a bunch of people on my team who contributed in the same way as i did and they're on the list yes i am not yes that'd be more frustrating like if it cut out all engineers yeah i'd be like oh no engineers got recognized here this is just yeah or like a lot of the engineers got left off yeah whoever made this didn't wasn't in touch with engineering yeah yeah exactly and i think that that's an angle i'd like to explore and there's there's an adjacent explanation here which is just it was an accident they left your name off it's totally possible

and that might have its own set of implications but like how could they forget you you know but that kind of thing happens a lot in fact that this is one of the reasons i struggle with this when i'm when i'm doing some kind of public praise or recognition for someone who's made a contribution sometimes i'll just recognize the team by name and sometimes i'll recognize the individuals by their names and i just sweat bullets that i've left someone off that list you know do you notice in those afterwards at the end of books when the authors thank people there's often a section that's like i don't want to thank people in this way because i'll leave people off the list right i have read that i think that's describing what you're so they cut

everyone out saying too i don't think anyone because i don't want to hurt a single person you know who you are yeah you you know who i should be thinking of right now and probably i'm not yeah i guess the problem here is this is sort of like the audience is is different at work where yeah they know you right yeah they they know you and theoretically this affects future opportunities and yeah promotion and right that kind of stuff it's not like an author i don't know maybe for their peers who read the books they're like oh yeah who did you use for an editor i want i want to look at that name and use that in my book but yeah i certainly don't know like i don't think i've ever read a thank you or an acknowledgement section in a book and thought oh yeah barbara

i remember barbara i've never known anywhere i can't believe they left out so and so yeah exactly maybe that's because i don't know many authors yeah i i would if you know where the list came from that could be a useful thing to dig into to figure out what do they know about contributions and why didn't they know about my contribution and it could be there's some abstraction in between like maybe there was a manager somewhere that that was kind of representing the team and they just forgot about you yeah or it could be because they hate you well it it could be the person making this list has kind of a keyhole view of the project and they happen to have talked with a few people in engineering or who had done that kind of work they just didn't

talk to you because you're working on other stuff and and yeah sort of happenstance you you could think about this if you wanted to make yourself feel bad you could think this is a reflection of how important and impactful my contributions were and they were not important and impactful enough to be recognized on this list and well i'll say there there's given enough impact you would have made the list yeah but there's a wide range of like useful contributions that still might not rise to the level of someone's memory of specifically this person's memory who made the list yes you are you are so right and especially in engineering because there is so much behind the scenes nuts and bolts in the boiler room like i like to say where you're just not front and

center in the spotlight and so much engineering gets done that nobody ever even notices or appreciates just because it's hard to see you know like who yeah did you expect the pms to go look at all your pr comments you know code review comments probably not did you expect them to see all the the hours you spent sweating bullets about the architecture and design? Probably not. They just can't see that stuff. And so if you, and I will say, this is actually a problem for people professionally, especially in engineering, where so much of the work we do is just nearly darn impossible to see.

There are no hammers being swung. There's no onstage moments, hardly at all. So if you want to be recognized for your work, and I would submit that being recognized for your work is an important part of career advancement and getting bigger more responsibility and having more influence and impact if you want that it just feels good too i mean separate from that it's it's nice it's nice when people say thank you or recognize your your efforts absolutely yeah if that is something you want then i would suggest that it's possible that in this situation you were absent from a bunch of key let's just call them meetings and that that's where honestly

I believe it is in meetings where recognition is credited or sorry, it's where your recognition bank account gets deposited into. So like, for example, product team and engineering team are debating how to implement something. There's, there's a way to do it. That would be a lot less expensive, but still deliver almost all the value for the, for the end user. And someone comes up with that idea, right? People are going to remember that, especially the product team, which in this case sounds like are the people that were writing the list and presenting it. They're going to remember that kind of thing. But if you aren't in the meeting, because you're off doing architecture design and code review kind of quietly they won't even know what you did

and so meetings meetings meetings that's where these things happen and if you can develop the skill of being a valuable participant in meetings where important decisions are being made it will be very hard for people to forget your contributions i'm gonna add some nuance to what you said which is people will remember the person who talked about it most loudly not necessarily the person who came up with the idea or implemented the idea yes and i think that's where the politics and negative effects of politics can come in where people are kind of jockeying for credit or and i don't know if this is a direct lesson for you right now but i think it could be a lesson for future you or folks in leadership positions in general it's really really important to try to be

generous and accurate, recognizing the contributions of folks, especially if they're not the kind of person who speaks loudly in meetings. Because they'll get it. That'll happen just kind of from how people work. But it really can bring a team together and motivate a team if you make a little bit of effort to point out like, hey, if someone mentions a great idea and then either misattributes it or just kind of doesn't say who it came from, you could say, and that was from so-and-so yeah that's very helpful that yeah that can go really far just a little you don't even have to go out of your way and say hey i just want to give credit you can just say yes i also liked john's idea you know you can just kind of subtly work it in it's like gorilla marketing or

something yeah and and maybe that's uh if you are one of the loud people you can absorb ideas just by you have like this gravity about you from talking about things and kind of being able to work them out in meetings or explain them in meetings. And if you can be careful about giving credit too, that also helps. And it doesn't diminish your efforts or role either. I think it's like a, it looks good if you're explaining stuff to people and say, also, this was so-and-so's idea. Exactly. It's like, it's not a zero-sum thing in a lot of cases. Totally not. And I think people, I think some people, I don't feel this way, but I think some people do think it is a zero-sum game where if they give credit, that means that's credit that they can't get.

But actually, when you give credit to someone else, people respect you more, I think, because they know that you're not a credit hoarder, which is just as painful. Yeah. Well, have we answered this? I want to address one more question here. So a question and a sub-question. So the final question was, should I care? And I think we made a pretty good case for why you should care about generally receiving credit for the work you did. Career success, satisfaction, happiness, your entire self-worth depends on it.

I'm just kidding on that last thing. but but then it said specifically i i felt bad about this because this list went to the leadership team and i worry that they won't notice my name and i will say this if a list in an email or a list in a presentation that's long of names doesn't does or doesn't have your name on it and that was the only exposure the leadership team was going to have to your work they were already not going to remember you. No, I'm serious. It's kind of sad, but it's true. If you were expecting your name on a list of say 30 people to be the thing that kind of rings a bell in the leadership team's mind or gets their attention, that's not going to do it. You got to tell these people.

These people deal with so many things all the time. They're going to have to hear your name 10 times before they go, oh yeah, that's a real solid contributor on the team. And just seeing it once on an email list is just not going to not going to do it for them and that goes back to meetings and exposure and giving credit so i think you're saying this didn't make or break anything no maybe you're you're you're one list presence behind where you could have been yeah it's not like it it isn't isn't some binary like they didn't know you now they do yeah no no i've i've never heard of someone getting recognized by someone in a leadership role because their name was on a list once and that was the only thing i ever heard about them

you know people who make positive consistent contributions to the success of a company organization their names tend to be mentioned over and over like you know i sit i'm i'm on it on a leadership team right now and i know the names i could rattle off the names of the top four or five people in my company whose names we hear at the leadership level often and it's because we get status reports and things from people regularly who say oh yeah and so and so they were a major player in this effort and those names accumulate in our minds and we know who they are and then there's also a whole list of people whose names i don't really know what they do because i just don't hear about them and so you know it's kind of hard like it's a it's a real

soft game here you have to play where and it's not even really a game so much but doing really quality work and then making sure people know you did the quality work is extra challenging it's like, you know, it's like now you have to take off your quality work hat and put on your marketing hat and make sure people know that it happened. Yeah. Yeah. And it's hard for that to go to the leadership level unless you yourself have a good leadership chain. Like Jameson was saying, if they're really good at, what's the word? Celebrating their own team members. Yeah. Team members contributions. So he, again, maybe, so James, I want to riff on something you said a minute ago where this is maybe for future question asker, but I have a habit with all the people

that report to me where I ask them every week in our one-on-ones, one of my standing questions is, please tell me about some of the outstanding contributions of your team members this week. And they know the question is coming and they sometimes they'll prepare for it during the week. And sometimes they'll have a written list of some of the things that they noticed throughout the week to put on my list, just so I can hear, you know, so-and-so did a major refactor and it, and it shipped without any issues to production. And now the rest of the team was praising them and this and that. And I love this stuff because I write these things down and I have just a a document many pages long of all of these little contribution anecdotes. And then later when the

time comes for me to make important decisions, like maybe doing recognition for the team or maybe doing performance evaluations or things, I review these anecdotes so I can recall what are the major contributions of each of these people. And a lot of people get on that list, but some people don't. And that's in part because, or could be in part because they don't contribute at the level that gets their manager excited, but it could also be that the manager is just failing to deliver that information to me, you know? Yeah. So really, really important to pass that stuff up the chain. Yeah. Well, I believe this means we've answered the question. What do you think? I believe so. And I just want to recognize your contribution, Jameson, to today's

question. I'll tell our boss how good of a job you did. I was about to say I wanted to recognize you for your excellent contribution. Why don't we go together hand in hand to our mutual boss and just tell them how great we are. The shadowy figure behind the podcast. Yes. Is this the beginning of like more podcast lore the true origin story yeah all right good luck there will be more opportunities absolutely what can people do if they would like their own questions answered go to softskills.audio and click the ask a question button if you'd like to recognize a peer you can do that there or you can ask a question whatever whatever suits you and thank you thank you from the bottom of our hearts our recognition starved hearts for everyone who fills out that question

every week. We just love it. We hear from you. We love reading your questions and boy, does it give us interesting perspectives on the kinds of challenges people face at work. It's just absolutely wonderful to hear. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Thank you. We will catch you next week.