Soft Skills Engineering - Episode 376: Return to office and quitting tech

Starting point is 00:00:00 it takes more than hosting your company knowledge base on a minecraft server to be a great software engineer this is episode 376 of the soft skills engineering podcast and i am your host jameson dance i'm your host steve isn't that the name of the minecraft guy i think so soft skills engineering is a weekly advice show about all the non-technical stuff that goes into the non-technical field of software development and now i'm just imagining the redstone monstrosities it would take to recreate confluence inside minecraft we're gonna need an ascii encoder hang on i need to go mine some diamond i need to go add a field to our jira issue template doesn't that sound delightful it does and i mean clearly it's survival not creative oh yeah

Starting point is 00:00:54 this episode is supported by compiler an original podcast from red hat discussing tech topics big small and strange more about red hat compiler the podcast later in the show now i would like to thank our wonderful patron sponsors thank you too i like chicken i like liver meow mix meow mix please deliver never is not just a crater on mars flamingo emoji trash panda the computer science book.com kyle boss valentin at datafold santa hope are kent c dodds jenny kim owens charlotte craig motlin i love i love mavis the stochastic parrot alice jost muskingham ohio patreon.com we're hiring ira chan monkey face emoji jonathan king web tau awesome n10 testing oladapo fadye will angel ragnar nick hathaway travis brayden canes john grant cody sale

Starting point is 00:01:39 and nick cantar did i say nick cantar twice no i don't think so you said there's a nick hathaway there are two nicks on the list there are there could be more if you're a nick and you want to join this illustrious crew, you can go to softskills.audio and click support us on Patreon where any amount will get you invited to our Slack team. Any amount of enough amount will get you regular or one-time shout outs on this list.

Starting point is 00:02:06 We really appreciate it and pay for the prodigious Pop-Tart intake that it takes to produce this show. And if you want a discount, just put Nick in the discount code box. We'll give you the Nick rate. There are dozens of us. You know, one of these days, you know, Muskingham, Ohio, one of these days we need to do, we

Starting point is 00:02:24 need to take soft skills engineering on the road and do a obscure towns in Ohio soft skills engineering tour. It'll be like Taylor Swift tickets are a thousand bucks a seat and we are going to fill the biggest venues in Muskingham, Ohio. I can't even remember the rest of them. Coshocton. That was, yeah, that was it. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:02:46 Yeah. We just roll up to the city hall or whatever. and announce we're here. Or we could do a really long city names in the UK with Lanfair, et cetera. Yeah, it could be the Europe tour. We're thinking big now, but- Yeah, finally.

Starting point is 00:03:02 First, we must earn our keep. We must do a show. Okay. Dave, do you want to read our first question? Actually, we've got a listener who wrote in from 131 episodes ago and now shared how things went with our advice. Let me read this one.

Starting point is 00:03:19 Hi, Dave and Jameson. Just wanted to follow up on a question you answered in episode 245, almost three years ago, about quitting my first job after 10 years, leaving behind a very close commute and awesome culture, and replace that with a long commute, hybrid work, a significant salary raise, and a chance to gain new insights and learn from senior devs. So before I read more, Jameson, what do you think we told this person to do? Clearly quit your job. Yeah, I think so. In the salad days of 2020? Yeah, exactly. Okay, continuing to read. Almost right after the episode. I took your advice. I quit my job. I went for a new role at another company and returned to my first job a year and a half later. Laughing face emoji with tears coming out of the eyes.

Starting point is 00:03:58 Okay. It was actually a good choice. I learned a lot about workflows, product management, system architecture, coaching developers, and other areas, but felt like I couldn't make the impact that I wanted. I went back to the place I started at, armed with a lot more knowledge, and was able to apply that throughout multiple projects. Now, another year later, I'm quitting again to start my own company initially one person switching jobs the first time gave me a healthy disconnect it gave me a lot of insights and now i have the confidence to start taking on projects on my own thank you for your help way to go you're welcome quitting the job yeah quitting the job what three times now three times in three years quit your first one quit your second one now

Starting point is 00:04:38 quitting your first one again i always wonder about that what it would what it would be like to go back to the same job i did it did you yeah i left the company after like six years i left for six months then i went back what was it like did you have to like eat some crow to say like oh i was wrong i'm sorry i left you yeah pretty much people love it when you say that though they're like oh awesome come on back i feel great yeah well we better give some more advice and answer some questions so that three years later we can hear the feedback on how exactly how this went i'm gonna read our question this is from an anonymous listener who says i applied and was hired for a 100 telecommute position recently the company has mandated

Starting point is 00:05:22 all employees near an office switch to a hybrid schedule i'm looking at an hour or more round trip and a yearly cost of parking that is several thousand dollars the company also announced to their investors that massive layoffs will be coming due to the economy and redundancies due to a large merger. I'm relatively new to the company and left my previous company after only a couple of years. I like where I work and the company benefits. I do prefer working in office and don't want to just be seen as a perpetual job hopper. I'm just not thrilled about the commute time and commute pay cut. We have been assured my product is invaluable, but should I believe that? A friend referred me to a hybrid position biking distance from my house. Assuming I made an offer,

Starting point is 00:06:00 should i take it what if it's slightly less than what i am making now oh this is so timely i'm hearing about a lot of this kind of situation where companies are kind of saying oh you know we were maybe a little bit too lax on the full remote policy over the last three years yeah we're bringing them home i have heard the the theory that it is a sneaky way to reduce head count it's a layoff in disguise yeah i don't know if that doesn't make a ton of sense because it is probably not really well i don't know maybe all the troublemakers are the people who don't want to return to the office or something but i was going to say it's it's unlikely that that will be the the least impactful way to reduce the company size yeah voluntary no severance i this

Starting point is 00:06:51 is going to sound really weird but i just got the 80s transformers theme music in my head and it it's going return to office layoffs in disguise i'm just more wondering about the people who would who would put their foot down and and quit over this like yeah you know i that's those people are interesting but you know who's even more interesting to me the people like that caller from a few episodes ago who's like oh yeah sure i'll come into the office and then i was thinking that and then just don't yeah those people are i just have so much admiration it's like i'm really gonna test the social norms here what are you willing to do a one hour commute do you think that's each way i assume so it says

Starting point is 00:07:37 one or half an hour commute one hour or more round trip so 30 minutes each way plus a little variability several thousand dollars to park each year that's uh that says major metro that's like a yeah that's like a california or new york boston kind of rates is there any time limited free parking in places like that like what if you just come into the office for two hours hybrids save on your parking yeah come in the morning two hours before lunch then go to lunch then come back two hours after lunch then go home sure you just have to move your car a lot yeah just move it during lunch you're gonna go to lunch anyway you know yeah interestingly that's kind of what i did i mean not deliberately to avoid paying parking but i haven't been to the office in a few

Starting point is 00:08:22 weeks because i've had a the cruds that i've been trying to kick and not infect everyone in the office with but i work a hybrid job now and it's rare that i will go there at the beginning of a work day and leave at the end of the work day i kind of bounce back and forth oh and it's nice feels nice to break up the day a little bit work half the day from home half the day from the office that kind of thing yeah yeah still get the experience of typing on my keyboard in my pajamas are there some days where you don't go in at all there are okay yeah me too i don't think we're ever going to go away from that i think people love it yeah so it says here it says here that the company so this must be a huge company and i'll tell you why i say that first of all they

Starting point is 00:09:08 had a big acquisition. Second of all, they're in a... It says massive layoffs are coming. It's been reported to the investors. I can assure you that if this was a tiny company, that would not have leaked. Some of these investors are probably kind of public and they're tweeting about meetings they have. Anyway, but the thing that really got me is it says all employees near an office switch to a hybrid schedule. And I keep hearing this. If you're remote, but not that remote, we expect you to come stand in one of our buildings during the day. And it's kind of a weird policy. Like I have a friend who works for one of these mega tech co's and the mega tech co is saying, you have to come into a office three days a week. And my friend is like, okay, well,

Starting point is 00:09:49 no one I work with is near, is in the office that I'm closest to. The people that I work with are actually all over the world and we're all super distributed. So what is the point of me coming into this office that happens to be about an hour from my house? Like no one is there that I work with but that's the policy and i'm seeing a lot of that yeah i i i still don't understand the case for forcing a return to office enough to i can only strawman it you know i don't i don't get why it would be a good idea to force a return to the office in a in a non-cynical grumpy way so i don't know what's behind it all besides just nefarious sneakiness i've been assured my product is invaluable but should i believe that i mean i'm sure all the people who are going

Starting point is 00:10:40 to be laid off by these massive layoffs are being assured yes similar things yeah don't worry you're all critical and essential until next week when hr will send you a letter i made an offer should i take it what if it's so this offer is so you should definitely interview for that place that's within biking distance of your house yeah and even if it's less money i'm sure your life will be better biking to work than driving for half an hour to work that's yes that is you'll save money on parking until you get killed by a car which just saying as someone who loves to bike to work these are the economics you're dealing with that's okay that's fair i'm assuming this is in america where that's a uh not improbable outcome yeah biking this i mean it doesn't

Starting point is 00:11:27 say what kind of bike it could be like a monster motorcycle tank yeah tank tank bicycle that crushes everything in its path yeah it's like a 4 000 pound bike diesel assist bike it's my v8 hummer bicycle someone tries to door me it shears their arm off exactly yeah i i feel for you this sucks and a lot of people have made life decisions about where to live and where to work assuming that that they will not have to go into the office so to me this feels i mean i have no details about anything about this new company but the fact that they're wise enough to base their company within biking distance of your house makes me feel like they've got some good judgment i'm gonna say go with it

Starting point is 00:12:23 the other option actually i i lived i worked at a company that was within five miles of my house for five years and i biked to work three four or five days a week and it was wonderful i gotta say being able to combine fitness and commute into one activity is like the greatest life hack i loved it. Now I live too far away to do that. So instead I combine my audio books and podcasts in my commute. And that's actually also an amazing life hack. That's really wonderful too. Yeah. I'm kind of latching onto a part of this question that says they're only asking people to come to work if they live with it, if they live quote near an office. And I'm like, okay, well, if you really want to keep this job, why not just move a few miles further away?

Starting point is 00:13:04 You know, what's the, what is actually the radius here? You think they've defined an exact radius? maybe anyone within 25 miles maybe it's like one of those battle arenas that has like a shrinking border as the game goes on but in this case the border is actually growing to engulf you no matter how far you move away it's you can't escape it you can run or hide you're gonna move away and then the office boundaries are gonna get gerrymandered to include it'll just like stick a little arm out to hit your house right around your circle around your house these circles aren't even contiguous yeah and if you look closely there's a tiny corridor several miles long we've taken great care not to capture any other residences yeah it goes along public roadways

Starting point is 00:13:50 yeah i mean it's rough i'll say that 100 remote is i just crystal ball here i think it's it's going to go greatly reduced. It used to be, by my estimation, that probably less than 1% of companies fully embraced 100% remote distributed workforces. It was really hard to find. I remember seeing people try to find jobs. They're like, look, I've chosen to live in a very rural remote location. I'm looking only for 100% remote jobs. And I think they really struggled because they cut out like literally like 99 of job opportunities now you know we were like 100 of jobs were remote you know three years ago i don't know what it's going to go back to this fully remote fully distributed but i'll bet you it's less than 20 that's just that's my prediction

Starting point is 00:14:39 it sure felt like it was more than one percent just from the really back in the day the chatter on twitter but i think that's just because it people liked to talk about it how many people how many developers do you know and of those developers how many of them were successfully doing fully remote distributed teams for more than like one job i think i'm skewed because i've been doing it for a few jobs so i've worked with people that have been doing it for a while ah yes you're in the you're in the circle i've yeah i've entered the club yeah i i knew you did it but part of that was starting your own company right yeah that's true that's right so i don't count you yeah and then uh i know one other person and if depending on how you look

Starting point is 00:15:28 at it starting my own company could be the least remote thing in the world because now my home is my office yeah you go into the office every day it's that yeah that i cannot escape the office that's right you've actually given a whole new meaning to the word hybrid this is my hybrid home office yeah all right have we answered this question i i think so well let me let me wrap up on that last point i was trying to make which is you the chances of having a fully remote position if that's what you're really sold on i think are just going to go down and down most of the jobs you're going to see are going to be at least hybrid if not full in in office although i also believe that most jobs will be hybrid they're just not going to require to people they're not

Starting point is 00:16:05 going to require people to come into the office every day every work day so um so yeah like i i think i would just start evaluating jobs based on what are the absolute must-haves for yourself and if telecommuting full remote distributed is an absolute must-have then that's fine but this job is not it and neither is the bike job you can ask them to pay for parking they'll say no but you can in fact uh so in an interesting anecdote on that i used to work for a company big big tech co and they did offer a parking allowance it was something like in the 200 range per month where they would just allocate you 200 bucks a month on a special card so you could pay for parking i have heard that they they kept paying that into the pandemic even after full remote

Starting point is 00:16:49 until they were like oh crap and they then turned it off and i have also heard that they're turning it back on with the hybrid but they're not turning it back on as high as the ratio should be for the say three days of the week so it should be like 60 of what it was but it's going to be even lower than that for this upcoming return to office so i don't know i it's a new world we're seeing and perks are getting cut all over the place so yeah it's just i think it's just going to be harder to find that truly luxurious lazy boy chair of a job that used to exist bountifully throughout the industry there is much more of a what are you going to do about it vibe exactly from companies yeah exactly exactly okay have we answered the question now yeah we have

Starting point is 00:17:36 answered it dave can we have an honest natural conversation about a podcast from red hat called compiler yes red hat compiler is a really cool podcast it's from the people at red hat which is a company i've admired for literally 20 years red hat employs a bunch of really interesting people everything from actual compiler developers to engineering managers listening to them share their perspectives over the years has been eye-opening for me i really like the recent episode in defensive legacy where they talk to some experts about how you dig through old legacy systems it feels a little bit like code archaeology you're trying to piece together truths about the past from these artifacts that you have it's fascinating to listen to yeah they also have a

Starting point is 00:18:13 series on software technology stacks describing databases programming languages front-end frameworks back-end technologies and even test frameworks their production value is so good too like put us to shame good yes it's like what we aspire to be listen to compiler from red hat anywhere you listen to podcasts i would like you to read the next question this next question comes from an anonymous listener who says hi jameson and dave another longtime listener here thank you for all your advice and the good laughs that you provide in the show you're welcome all right continuing here it says i'm in my early 40s and have been working since i was 19 with a few years spent in education at university. In all these years, there have been ups and downs, financial

Starting point is 00:18:53 crises, personal crises, layoffs, good laughs and friendships, great teams, projects and bosses, and not so great teams, projects and bosses. I have enjoyed some of the work I've been doing in my industry and I've enjoyed making some good contributions to my field. But I have been badly burned out two times in my career. Healing and recovering was hard, but thankfully I was able to rejoin the workforce successfully, or so I thought. Last year, I identified I'm slowly burning out badly again. Since this will be my third time, I'm very seriously considering a career change to quit tech and software altogether. I'm passionate about the field I work in, though it seems I can't avoid getting sick badly from time to time, in part because of the difficulties

Starting point is 00:19:35 for finding a good team and project fit, having to deal with difficult people at work, and a mental health condition I've been struggling with since my teens. I have friends in the industry that are very senior, and we all share common struggles, and our complaints about the industry are getting worse and worse with time. Is that a symptom of becoming more experienced? Are we all becoming jaded? My current job pays well, but I've come to the realization that it isn't a good deal to trade great compensation for my health. I'm seriously considering downshifting and quitting tech to hopefully and finally bring sanity and peace to my life. This is something I've been discussing with my therapist lately.

Starting point is 00:20:09 So here's my question. Do you think it's worth pursuing a long career in tech or is it just that the more experienced and senior you become, the harder the job becomes because your awareness raises? Do you have any other advice? Thanks for reading and congrats again on the podcast.

Starting point is 00:20:23 Hmm. An interesting question. Yeah, this is a rough one, man. Yeah, it's interesting that you can tell that you're burning out badly again. i'm trying to remember if i could tell at the time or only in retrospect i'm wondering if i could tell could i've done anything differently to avoid it yeah i do want to talk about this thing the question asker gets to towards the end of

Starting point is 00:20:52 my friends are experienced things seem to be getting worse are we jaded is it us or is it just the industry getting worse i think is kind of the question right yeah and i think it's both i think there's just a natural thing that happens as you get older that you you can you can compare current reality to a more idealized version of the past you are different now than you were earlier in your career and and so things uh that seem worse could be the same but just strike you differently and i just see this in general as with people as they get older they seem to kind of like calcify not everybody but it seems like the common things is like new stuff is bad is this where the phrase the good old days came from

Starting point is 00:21:42 i think so yeah i think it's it's it's definitely getting into that good old day syndrome yeah the old days were not good is what people tell me in response to that yeah i mean there's the term rose-colored glasses yeah refer to that and i think that's probably some of what's going on here i think certainly some things are worse some things are better i'll tell you what's one thing that's better is it's it sure pays you a lot more money boy is that true compared to it's a lot more prestigious too yeah i kind of well also people hate you so it's kind of that's a mixed bag yeah you know when i was just starting out in software development i would tell people i was a software engineer and they're like whatever and then i

Starting point is 00:22:24 would tell people i'm software engineer they're like oh cool i love xyz company that you work for I'm like, yeah, great. And now they're like, yeah, big tech is the devil. Yeah. Oh, sorry. I work at small tech. It's fine. It's different. I totally agree. Those guys, no good. You know, who's good though? Small tech. I got to say, so my second job out of college, I worked at for about seven years and I loved it there, but I did quit. So there were things I didn't like about that job. And now though, every year that goes by, I think back on that job with more and more fondness. I think about the people there and I'm like, I love that team. Oh, I love working in that industry. Oh, I love the products we worked on. I love the organization. It was so

Starting point is 00:23:08 great. But then I'm like, wait a minute, I quit that job in frustration. What's going on? If I loved it so much, how come I'm not still there? Exactly. yeah i i think it is a challenge to become more experienced and not get more jaded and i have seen people who are able to do it they keep a certain flexibility and openness and like humility and it's tough because you you can you can see your capacities change as you get older like you get more wisdom and experience but there's definitely a difference in in the the i'll call it like the median ability to quickly pick up a new thing from a young developer and an old

Starting point is 00:23:53 developer i think so especially if it's just like the the new way that software is built that they come into the industry as like this is how it's done yeah i i don't know i okay i mean i'm gonna do a sample size of one here and the one is me because i'm about the same age as this this listener and i feel like i'm getting faster at that stuff like faster at picking up new technologies and i think it's because it's like oh yeah that's just like this thing and that thing that i've seen before and like oh i know this parrot i might know this pattern you know it's like i've seen that i've been there maybe it's because i haven't tried something truly new maybe there is nothing truly new though yeah well that'd be nice and you've learned it already yeah

Starting point is 00:24:37 good news i've learned it all of it you want to talk about mental health on this because that came up in the question yeah so one thing jameson and i have not revealed until now that we will reveal is that in addition to being space lawyers we are also space psychiatrists so this might sound some of our advice might not you might not want to follow it because it only applies in super orbital contexts. But the fact that there's some mental health challenges here going on and that you're working with a therapist on it, I think that should not be ignored. Now, I'm not saying that this listener is ignoring it. I mean, obviously, they're working with a therapist, so that's a good thing. But a lot of the times when it comes to burnout,

Starting point is 00:25:22 oh boy, I'm treading out into areas where even my space psychiatry degree isn't going to serve me well here, but the way we perceive the world is a huge part of how the world affects our mental state. And what I mean by that is you could have two of the same things happen to two different people, same fact patterns, same events, but depending on what those two people bring to the situation in the sense of their perception of it, how they view it, can drastically change the way that they respond to it, both in how they feel, in their health, in the actions they choose to respond to it, and in this case, burnout. I mean, and it's even I myself respond differently to the same kinds of situations depending on what context I bring to it.

Starting point is 00:26:11 So for example, I mean, I think about some of my years where I was working a ton of hours and able to just go, go, go, and it was no problem. And it's like, yeah, my mental health was in a great state. My family life was in a great state. I was getting plenty of sleep. I was working really hard. I didn't have certain demands on my time in life. But now, if I were to do that kind of thing, it would actually be really, really hard for me because now I have an expectation of a more sustainable work base. I've got a lot of demands on my time that I didn't have 20 years ago. And so same stimulus, different response, depending on what's going on with the person. The times I've been the most burnt out, I think I have been struggling the most with mental

Starting point is 00:26:48 health as well. For me, they are definitely connected. I'm not saying they're always connected with everybody or what the causal relationship is but yeah i i don't know i haven't well first of all i've never quit tech i can't tell you what it's going to be like because i haven't done it this is going one step beyond our quit your job and get a new one this is quit your career and get a new one yeah quit the industry quit the industry and get a new one go be a sheep farmer i don't think i love being in tech i find great satisfaction in it i have a hard time imagining a field where i would find as much satisfaction but i'm sure that they are out there fields where people find well this sounds so stupid

Starting point is 00:27:29 why am i even saying these words just saying obvious things what is my point i'll try and skip all the dumb words and just say the good ones just say tautologies that cannot be disproven they are like yes mathematically self-reinforcing perfection now that's podcasting if i felt like i didn't like my career and i felt like there was a field out there i could get into that would be fulfilling i think i would be interested in the idea i just really like what i do and am really not interested in any other field so it's tough for me to imagine leaving the industry right now and i guess my my question to the question asker is do you do you have an alternative that seems attractive or is it not tech and you're trying to figure out what's next?

Starting point is 00:28:21 Yeah. And to that, I would say that you need to do a real assessment of what the problem is. And if the problems truly are specific to the technology industry, such as I just don't like software problems, I don't like code, I don't like computers. It's like, okay, yeah, it kind of makes sense to me. But if the problem is, well, I have a boss that I don't get along with, or I haven't found a good team that I can work well with, then those kinds of problems sometimes will just follow you to the next industry. And boy, I wouldn't want that for anyone. And so that's the kind of problem where if it's going to cross-cut, it's like aspect oriented problems, the cross-cut industries, those have to be solved in you. Now, I'm not saying that

Starting point is 00:29:05 you have to put up with a toxic boss or terrible team, because even though those exist in a lot of places that they're not everywhere and they're not guaranteed. And so in some cases, it does make sense to just quit a job and stay in the industry to leave a toxic or terrible team or environment. Yeah, that's fine. It happens. We've all done that. But if every team you work with is toxic or every boss you've had is bad, and that's not what this person is saying because they said they've had good bosses. But I would say even the only time I would probably say let's leave tech is even in the best of circumstances. I love my boss. I love my team. I love my project. I'm still burned out. Now I would have to really take a good hard look. Is it the technology

Starting point is 00:29:44 industry that's burning me out? Because I can't, I can't point the stick at anything else. Yeah. I'm just pondering what you said. Yeah. I mean, maybe, maybe it's something about keeping up with the pace or the, there are, there are some problems inherent in building software products and learning tech stuff. And the industry has changed too. Like you mentioned, Jameson. I mean, when I got into software development, there was basically no financial incentive to do so. It was kind of median pay, maybe slightly above median pay. The people who were in it were all, you know, like us kind of socially maladjusted people who like to stay home and play on computers. I say all, it's not really true, but you know, and now it's taken on a little

Starting point is 00:30:26 bit more of the rat race aspect because there's so much money in it. And I don't mean money to be made necessarily, although that is true. But like, there's big financial incentives for people with a lot of money to invest in technology companies. And that brings all kinds of weird pressure and dynamics that just take away the fun and joy of creating and being a maker with software. And now it's like, you're a maker for profit, and the economics are critical. Which, by the way, I have adapted to quite nicely. And I gotta say, I actually really enjoy the economic aspects that have come into technology over the last 20 years yeah even though i was just kind of poo-pooing on it i actually love it i love the intersection of physics and

Starting point is 00:31:08 economics which is that's what that's how i define engineering it's like where physics and economics come together you know and uh i love thinking about that like yes but at what cost you know that's one of my favorite questions how much will this cost me and and i love actually the modern software stack for most sass companies is like dollars per gigabyte or dollars per hour you know and it's like you could put a real dollar cost on the on the things that we're building now and i frankly love it i'm gonna recommend you read a book called close to the machine it's a memoir by a developer it was written in 1999 i think but it feels so fresh and modern and it's very well written it's pretty short too it's like 200 pages the author i think was in

Starting point is 00:31:52 their 40s when they wrote it so sort of like feeling like they were getting a little bit older in tech and mentioned some of these same dynamics of of all these young whippersnappers and can i keep up with them and stuff coming in with their pearl and their cgis yeah no they they the the new the new hotness in that book was i think it was intranet systems oh like portals like for website corporate websites i i think so portlets i do remember right yeah and i'm recommend you read that because it might give you a perspective of someone else who's been in the industry for a while and who can think and write eloquently about what they consider when they think about working, what gets them excited and what doesn't. And maybe reading it, you'll look

Starting point is 00:32:37 at it and say, oh, I love this actually. Oh yeah, this is what I love about it. And maybe you will look at the author's passion and say, I do not recognize this. I wish I felt this and I just don't at all. That's a great litmus test. I like that. I'm going to read that book. It's so good. I loved it. I remember about 15 years into my career. So now I'm about 20 years into my career. Like I got my first out of college professional software job 20 years ago this year. But I remember the first 15 years, sorry, at the 15 year mark, I remember thinking, I want to be retired. I'm exhausted. I do not want to do this anymore. And it wasn't even that I didn't like software anymore. It was that I don't want to work anymore. Like I'm ready to just like

Starting point is 00:33:17 lay around and i was just i'm like it's right about when we started this podcast are you saying this was a midlife crisis podcast hasn't worked a day since keep those patreon funds coming because it's all i got i live on about 25 bucks a month for groceries and i've lost a lot of weight anyway i and you know what's crazy jameson i don't know what changed but i don't feel that anymore. I'm like, yeah, I'm good to go, man. Bring it on for 10 more years. This is awesome. Maybe 20 more years. This is fantastic. I'm having a great time. And I think part of it is I made some huge professional changes. Like one, I moved across the country, joined a mega tech company

Starting point is 00:34:00 for four years. I had a great time. Also some frustrating times. Left that company. I moved into management, focusing more on executive leadership in technology. That's been extremely fun. It's a whole new set of challenges. It's a nice mix of technical and social and political and all new challenge areas. But I'm approaching these changes as ways to try new things without completely leaving the industry. And so I don't know. I mean, that's kind of a hybrid option here is you might find that if you could completely switch your role, your day-to-day role, but stay in the tech industry, you might be able to keep some of what you love about your job, which is good pay, good benefits, and then shed some of the crap you don't love about it by focusing

Starting point is 00:34:44 in completely new areas. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes a change can be a good break. Like a semi-change, not like a complete throw the baby out with the bathwater change. Just throw some of the bathwater out. Keep the baby change. Yes. Yeah. Well, have we answered the question? I think so. Good luck. This is one I would love to hear what you do in fact this is one one of those questions where i'd love to hear what you do in the short term and then also a few years later you know how did it go i want to know if you grow the finest cucumbers in the land a decade from now or yeah artisanal backyard cucumbers yeah from my hobby farm i know somebody who quit tech to make pants really yeah how'd they go i

Starting point is 00:35:31 think very well wow i don't know i didn't study their finances i guess but it seems seems to have gone pretty well they have a lot of pants now all right dave what can people do if they would like their own questions answered go to softskills.audio and click the ask a question button there you can fill out our form where we ask you for as little or as much detail as you'd like to share with us and thank you so much to everyone who has filled out that form if you are one of the unfortunate people who have been the recipient of one of our answers over the last three, four, five, what are we doing this? Six years, seven years, seven and a half years. And you'd like to give us feedback on how we did. Please use that same form,

Starting point is 00:36:12 the ask a question form to fill out that. And thank you to those who are doing that too. We love reading your responses. All right. Thank you so much. We will catch you next week.

Soft Skills Engineering - Episode 376: Return to office and quitting tech

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