Soft Skills Engineering - Episode 402: It's all on fire and title inflation

Episode Date: April 1, 2024

In this episode, Dave and Jamison answer these questions: Happy Birthday Dave and congrats on the 400 episode milestone! Last year I was recruited away from my cushy Sr Dev role at Chill MegaCorp to an exciting technical leadership role at Fast-Paced MegaCorp. It felt like a huge level up since I had always wanted to pick up some of the softer communication and leadership skills to add to my arsenal while still working on technical problems. The 30% pay raise sealed the deal. Fast-foreward one year and I am burnt out, feeling disengaged and thinking about quitting. Compared to my previous role, everything here is urgent and high priority. There is little structure on my team, no planning or intake, and we just react to emails and pings from other teams about things not working. Our Sr Dev is very knowledgable but often gets short and impatient with me. My Sr Manager has said things like “sleep is for the weak” and frequently sends emails in the middle of the night. We have weekly evening releases that have gone till 4am. We are expected to always be around in case of a production incident – which happen very frequently because of the sheer complexity of everything and high dependency between internal services. I have considered moving to another team, but unfortunately this seems to be a company wide culture. I am considering cutting my losses with this company and moving back to an IC role with better work-life-balance. I am grateful for all the leadership skills I have picked up this past year and learned a ton in such a fast paced environment, but its been a whole year and I still haven’t gotten used to the “always on” culture and overall chaos. Is it normal form someone to shift between management and IC like this? What do you guys recommend? Hi Dave and Jamison, thank you for the show. It is the engineering podcast I look forward to most every week. I work at a company that, maybe like many others, has lots of title inflation. As a result, my title is much higher than it would be at a larger (and public) tech company. For example, “senior” may be one or two levels below senior elsewhere, and “staff” would be “senior” elsewhere. We also have “senior staff”, which might be “staff” elsewhere, but more likely that might just be a more senior “senior” engineer, too. My question is: How should I consider approaching a job search where I am knowingly (and reasonably) down-leveling myself in title? Should I include the relative level on my resume (for example, “L5”)? Should I not address it unless a recruiter or interviewer asks about it? Briefly mention the seeming down-level in a cover letter as comparable responsibilities and scope as my current role? I have worked hard for my promotions, because salary bands required the title change for the money I wanted, but now I am worried it will complicate applying to other companies. (Thank you for selecting my question!)

it takes just one more layer of abstraction to be a great engineer this is episode 402 of the soft skills engineering podcast i'm your host jamison dance i'm your host dave smith soft skills engineering is a weekly advice show about all the non-technical stuff that goes into the technical field of software development like abstraction yes wait no that is a technical thing well i don't know i guess it's a it's both i mean it takes more than abstraction to be a great engineer well only one more layer yeah just a little bit more than the current amount of abstraction yes obviously this is interesting because i guess i'm poking fun at the idea that abstraction solves all our problems but this week at work i've definitely said hey we

should have more abstraction in these parts i'm a hypocrite that's the that's the thing i'm trying to get you to understand you just made fun of yourself is what happened i think it yeah i guess i do that sometimes episode 402 that's the status code for payment required right yes yeah i've never used this one by the way i haven't either i feel like how many have i actually used i've used 401 400 oh i think i've used 403 404 i've used 500 i don't know if i've used any of the other 5xx status codes now those usually get used for you on accident when you screw up yeah it's like your load balancer uses those for you yes exactly my query is too slow so i made a 504 on accident yeah and then 200 201 i haven't used a 202 ever yeah this is the most compelling podcast content

i think we've made i'm just saying numbers let's just go that's what the people want to hear listen And I know, yeah, the crowd is dying. Hey, Dave, what letters have you typed before? Well, I tell you what, I'll just say each letter and then say yes or no after each one. It'll be riveting. Yeah. Get me out of here. Save me from myself.

So this week we had two people write in to apprise us that our episode number 404 aligns so closely with April Fool's, which actually is the day this episode is coming out. And, oh, wouldn't it have been amazing if we had skipped 404 on April Fool's because, you know, 404 can't be found. Yeah. Oh, it would have been incredible. I feel like we still should just for the principle of things. I know. Seriously, just skip it.

So I just want to give a big shout out to Dom and Fernando. No, Ubersnack, who both wrote in to say you should skip episode 404 for an April Fool's joke. Genius. Okay. Okay. Sadly, we're not going to do it. Episode 402 is coming out on April Fool's Day, which is now today. And payment is required if you want to join our Patreon community. Any dollar amount above zero will give you access to our Slack community. And if you contribute enough, you can be on the list that I'm about to read right now. Starting with E4, E5, King E2, King E7. Dan from Drone

Deploy, Chase W. Norton, level up your TypeScript with typehero.dev. Never is not just a crater on Mars. Flamingo emoji. I like chicken. I like liver. Meowmix, meowmix, please deliver. Trash Panda, thecomputersciencebook.com, Santa Hopar, Kent C. Dodds, Jenny Kim, Owen Shartle, Craig Motlin, thestochasticparrot, patreon.com, we're hiring Ira Chan, question mark, Jonathan King, Zanai, beautiful, functional user documentation, the unsettling nature of not knowing the content at williamangel.net, Travis, Brayden Keynes, John Grant, every time Dave laughs, a new JavaScript framework is born. Listen, I know that my job on this podcast is to be the laugh track.

You don't have to rub it in. The question is how many of my laughs are actually pre-recorded and inserted by our editor and how many are live? Do you think you can get better at laughing, at making your laugh sound more convincing and carefree and spontaneous and genuine? You could definitely get worse at it. That's how you respond to jokes. That doesn't sound heartfelt and sincere.

It sounds maniacal. oh sorry i've been working on it i guess i didn't improve i learned to you mentioned a new javascript framework being created i learned i am two degrees of separation from the author of the original javascript fatigue post who was that so i don't remember their name okay but somebody posted on medium in 2015 i think i think that's the origin of it okay and i thank them they have made my life better by for a while there was a lot of complaining and angst about it but yeah i feel like the fatigue has lessened people have started trying to in in javascript at least i've noticed a deliberate effort to make things easier to use with less configuration more convention yeah so

was it eric clemens that's what i found on google okay i think so all right great accidental shout out that was way too technical okay let's uh let's go to our first question yeah dave can i read this one you have my permission expressly granted excellent an anonymous listener asks happy birthday dave and congrats on the 400 episode milestone oh nice thank you last year i was recruited away from my cushy senior dev role at chill megacorp to an exciting technical leadership role at fast-paced megacorp it felt like a huge level up since i had always wanted to pick up some of the softer communication and leadership skills to add to my arsenal while still working on technical problems the 30 pay raise sealed the deal wow fast forward one year and i

am burnt out feeling disengaged and thinking about quitting compared to my previous role everything here is urgent and high priority there's little structure on my team no planning or intake and we just react to emails and pings from other teams about things not working our senior dev is very knowledgeable but often gets short and impatient with me my senior manager has said things like sleep is for the week oh and frequently sends emails in the middle of the night we have weekly evening releases that have gone until 4am. We are expected to always be around in case of a production incident, which happens very frequently because of the sheer complexity of everything and high dependency between internal services. I've considered moving to another team, but

unfortunately, this seems to be a company-wide culture. I'm considering cutting my losses with this company and moving back to an IC role with better work-life balance. I am grateful for all the leadership skills I've picked up this past year and have learned a ton in such a fast-paced environment but it's been a whole year and i still haven't gotten used to the always-on culture and overall chaos is it normal for someone to switch between management and ic like this what do you guys recommend wow hmm from from super chill megacorp to fast-paced megacorp so i'm guessing this 30% raise was a lot of dollars yeah yeah i assume i mean if yeah if you're making 200k Okay. That's 60 grand, right?

Yeah. I mean, 71, right? Nope. No, you're... I don't know math. I don't know. I don't either. 60K. You got it. Okay. That's because three times two is indeed six. That's a lot of money. And it could be even higher depending on how mega the megacorp is.

So sometimes when my children are mad at each other, they will say unkind things or attempt to say unkind things recently my eight-year-old has been trying to taunt my four-year-old by saying you don't even know what x times x is and gives them some multiplication problem and yesterday they were stymied because the four-year-old was like well i'll just figure it out here it is that was a brutal moment for the older child for your eight-year-old your year old's like oh yeah my sick burn i have nothing to use yeah so sleep is for the week oh yeah that's that's it that's a great if your boss ever says sleep is for the week boy that's a rough that's a rough one i have worked with bosses who worked a lot but i have

i don't think i've ever worked with a boss and that can exert some pressure of like well they're around so am i supposed to be around i have never worked for a boss who explicitly said like only losers do this thing that is required for your brain to function normally that that's brutal i'm gonna you know what i'm gonna try and counteract that by saying naps are for the strong why don't we why don't we put out into the world this vibe of no sleep is good eight hours of daily sleep is for the strong. Actually, there's a lot of good science behind that now. Like many people recently, I've been getting into a little bit of this longevity studies that have been happening at various institutions and other people. I'm sure if I said some of the names, people would

recognize some of them. But some of these longevity research labs are saying the number one thing to do to have better waking time and better health and better longevity and strength and vitality is get more sleep and consistent sleep that's pretty true for physical strength in general i know if you're trying to get get ripped then sleep has a pretty big effect assuming you're doing other stuff too you can't just like just sleep a lot my bench my bench mass went up by 50 pounds because i started sleeping eight hours a day but if you're working very hard in the gym and not sleeping very well you will get worse results yeah this is rough i mean so i'm I'm latching on to some of the comments this question asker writes.

Specifically, they seem to think that the shift from IC to management is part of the problem here, you know, because they went from senior dev to technical leadership role. But, and I wonder if that's really what, in other words, I guess I'm not really clear if this person thinks that maybe technical leadership is just kind of inherently more hair on fire. I think it is, actually. I think if there is an urgent problem, you are more expected to be quickly responsive to it in more technical leadership roles, I think. But I think part of what you're getting at is, it sounds like as an IC, you would still be up until 4 a.m. deploying. Yeah, exactly. Or maybe they take turns, or it's like only the on-call has to do it, so it would be up to 4 a.m., but it would be every sixth week, not every week. yeah but no planning or structure on my team react to emails and pings i mean yeah maybe if

the manager role here is like trying to be a shield from all that stuff and you you take these urgent pings and convert them into plans for your team but i'd be surprised if this much chaos is not felt by the team as well yeah oh for sure yeah something tells me that if you switch to an ic role at this same company you would you would probably be able to downgrade some of this but in my experience at a megacorp myself you can't really do that like there's not a process there's not a process from going back one level because here here's some assumptions i'm making that the career ladder here you've got a management track and you've got an individual contributor track now on the management track it's like manager senior manager director vice

president etc but on the individual contributor track it's like engineer one engineer two senior engineer tech lead principal engineer responsible for more teams you know that kind of thing but the only difference really between or the principal difference between the management track and the ic track is that you're not doing people management but you are providing technical leadership for a team or multiple teams and so because we're going back to an ic role individual contributor role would actually mean a demotion it would mean like let's say i'm level seven right now i would have to go to level six and i just never saw a process for that like i guess it must exist but they don't talk about it so you're assuming they couldn't jump from a like a

technical leadership role to a similar level of ic role i'm just yeah my assumption here is that that is not a separate ladder that's the ladder you're on yeah huh and now if it was people management that would be a different story it's like oh yeah sure you can hop back over to the individual contributor ladder, but there's only two ladders. They do mention management and IC at the bottom, at the end of the question. I've revealed something. I said bottom. Now you know that our text is laid out top to bottom. Leaking information. You leaked, the abstraction is leaky. Oh, poor OPSEC. Yeah. Yeah. I think by technical, I'm assuming they mean management of some kind, but I think it still could be tricky because, especially at very senior IC

levels, the skills of being a very senior IC are quite a bit different from being a very senior manager. And I think it's more likely that you could not be qualified for the very senior IC level if you're trying to move between different tracks at the same level. It's easier to do the kind of lower down the ladder you are. Yeah, exactly. So either way, you might be looking at a demotion or a pay cut, which, you know, maybe you're willing to take. Yeah. You know, I mean, it's like, I think you may have just had an interesting revelation about your own price point for pain. And I had this, Jameson and I have both been through this, where in our careers, we had to choose between pain and dollars. And for me, I was actually surprised

how many dollars I was willing to walk away from for the pain I was having. And of course, there's different kinds of pain, right? But in this case, it's the hectic, fix everything all the time no work-life balance pain yeah for me it was not that it was a different kind of pain but i was like man that's a lot of dollars i just walked away from well i guess that's the price i was willing to pay yeah i definitely chose the dollars at first yeah me too but i didn't realize that i was choosing the dollars in compensation for more pain uh right it took a while but yeah i i know great people that still work at the megacorp i worked at and i don't mean to imply that they are suckers for staying or anything but they just have a different uh pain demand profile

yes or dollar demand profile right the demand curve the supply of pain and the demand for dollars on a chart yeah um so i is it normal form to shift between management and ic like this yes yes i think that's pretty normal yeah i mean you've done it dave i've done it multiple times I think I haven't shifted back, but I don't think I, I don't know. I don't think I would, but I also don't, I'm not willing to say I'll never go back. I like writing code. It's fun to build stuff and be an IC. Yeah. So I don't think that's inherently bad or wrong or particularly difficult, but I agree that it might take a job change. And even if it wouldn't require a job change it might be nice to have a job change yeah i want to point out that if you so choose

you potentially could try to influence some of this culture of chaos as a technical leader at the very least on your own team that's where you have the most control yeah but potentially wider among the rest of the company that's unlikely to be it's probably going to be stressful in a different way than chaos of of getting woken up all the time but i'm sure you're not the only one that is stressed out by this i'm sure they have burnout and turnover and and i i am suspicious that this is not the only way to move fast is to just be intense and and chaotic and i bet you could point out areas where this makes you move slower more slowly and is and is worse even if your goal is like, we really iterate and ship and try hard, I could see chaos coming out

of kind of a mistaken interpretation of that. But I think if you wanted to, you could point out a better way where you can work calmly and collectively, and you still respond with urgency to emergencies. But if everything is an emergency, then nothing is an emergency and there's no priority. And that's bad. It's bad to have your priorities determined by who yells fire the most loudly instead of careful thought about trade-offs and costs and benefits and stuff. Yeah. Given that this is a company-wide culture as perceived by our question asker here, I think that this is just not going to get better at this company, even if you downgrade to an IC role. The fact that your boss is just super into this. Yeah. And I think the cure to burnout is not

try and change the whole company's culture as well. If you're feeling burnt out already, then you're kind of running low on energy to take on Herculean tasks. And that's kind of what this would be. Yeah, absolutely. So bail. Yeah, I think you're going to have to find a different company. Now, I do think there's one mistake here in the presumption that you're going to have to go back to an IC role. I don't think that's true. You've been now serving in a technical leadership role for the past year. If you like the technical leadership, you can go to another company maybe even back to your previous company and to keep the technical leadership role like there's no reason that that you inherently just it's not like this shows up as a failure it's

like well we tried technical leadership i failed now i have to go back to ic i don't think that's the case here i don't think this indicates a failure it's just more of a preference of work style and now if you can find a company that has a technical lead role open and has the work style you look that you want you're fine to keep that role and i don't i don't think you necessarily have to go back i think this is you mentioned something about this earlier too this is great experience to have because you can learn from negative experiences sometimes you learn more too you can you can go to a future job and say i have seen what happens if we go down this road of urgency and chaos and emergencies and no planning and priority and i do not like it

Yeah. And I've got some great ideas about how to avoid it. Yep. It's totally true. Once you've experienced it firsthand, it's so much easier to spot it in the interview process. You know the questions to ask. You actually know what's on the menu. I think this is a pretty clear quit your job consensus. Have we answered the question? I think so. Yeah. Good luck. We're back up to our old ways. Yep. We haven't said that in a while, but... Yeah. It feels good. It feels good to come home. It feels good to come home. Dave, do you want to read our next question?

Yes. Oh, this comes from an anonymous listener who says, Hi, Dave and Jameson. Thank you for the show. It is the engineering podcast I look forward to most every week. Oh, I emphasized that wrong. Almost every week I look forward to it. Most every week.

I think that was meant to be, I look forward to this show the most every week. I choose to believe that's how they meant it. Not some weeks. wow i've totally read that wrong all right hey thank you all right continuing i work at a company that maybe like many others has lots of title inflation as a result my title is much higher than it would be at a larger or public tech company for example senior maybe one or two levels below senior elsewhere and staff would be senior elsewhere we also have senior staff which

might be like staff elsewhere but more likely that might just be a more senior senior engineer too my question is how should i consider approaching a job search when i am knowingly and reasonably down leveling myself in title should i include the relative level on my resume for example l5 should i not address it unless a recruiter or interviewer asks about it briefly mention the seeming down level in a cover letter as comparable responsibilities and scope as my current role i have worked hard for my promotions because salary bans required this title change for the money i wanted but now i am worried it will complicate applying to other companies thank you for selecting my question hey you're welcome how did they know they put that in the question

yeah i was like i guess because we say we answer every question so yeah we will eventually we would select it eventually they knew they trusted uh interesting hmm this is i feel like i haven't seen people admit, I have an inflated title very often. It's interesting to see. I have seen folks complain about title inflation in general, but it's often someone else's title. Yeah, those other people haven't worked to earn their title. I have definitely been the beneficiary of title inflation. Well, yeah, you were the Archduke of Computering for many years. I was. Yeah, I was a principal engineer in title at one point, and I spelled principal wrong. in linkedin and it was i was not a principal engineer i was a manager i did not do the

things a principal engineer would do yeah i'm gonna guess the company you're at was small so small that it really didn't have a principal engineer no it was a that was at the megacorp oh okay i think that might have been like salary shenanigans to hire me all right something i don't know that probably worked very much in your favor later it did it it definitely did yes that's why i say the beneficiary i also had a director title pretty early in my career when i absolutely did not do director things what did you it was like a manager things and poorly like to manage i was an engineering manager it was like 10 people or so but still it wasn't like multiple teams and And I didn't have any, I didn't know what I was doing.

Listen, you directed the work of 10 people. I don't think I did though. I think I, I'm trying to remember what I did and it sure wasn't what I would expect a director to do. Did you say, action, quiet on the set? Did you have a special chair that said director that's made out of canvas? I didn't have any of that stuff.

Oh, then you were definitely a director. Now I'm realizing I still don't know what a director does. so is this is this your way of saying that this this question asker is going to have nothing but benefit from all the title inflation they've i think that's part of my point yes i think um i i got interest in recruiting from these inflated titles that they don't know what you do you know they they have a search open on linkedin for senior software engineer a staff software engineer or whatever and you show up so cool so i don't think you need to down level yourself i think you might if if you're applying for roles that are below the level that you have in title

you might have to maybe answer the question hey why are you applying for this role if you've been this other role in the past and i don't think you have to say oh it's because it's all a lie um you could say i'm just interested in the i don't know working at this level i think i want to relax i really want to take it easy and do nothing i'm so good at it from working at a higher level then you'll be impressed i'm looking for a job that won't stretch me yes i'm looking to shrink yeah so i mean this is this is such a just a lovely question from i just i don't know i read this question and i think i really like this person they're so humble and they're saying look i totally recognize that i am performing at a level below what my title may suggest

and i want to be fully transparent about that with my next company you are a lovely person this is totally the wrong approach to interviewing and and i just say that because um engineers are like this almost every engineer i know is super interested in transparency they don't care to trump themselves up and make themselves look any better than they are and they want to be really clear about where their skills are and are not and then have this like really equitable wonderful transaction between the hiring manager and the candidate and i just have to tell you like don't do that and the reason the reason i say that is not because i want you to be a greedy money-loving

scumbag who only, you know, goes for bigger titles and bigger paychecks, but rather trust that the interview process will put you at a level where they think you are able to perform the best. And the title on your resume is only one of many, many factors that they will hopefully consider. Now, am I saying that every interview process is so good and so complete that it will accurately assess you and put you at the right level for the job? No. Yes. Oh, oh, okay. I thought you were going to say yes. But what I am saying is that let them decide that on their own. Now, I want to call out a few risks. There is a chance here that you get a job that is bigger than you can do and the accompanying salary, and it might be very daunting to you. It might cause

imposter syndrome and all that stuff that comes along with doing jobs that are bigger than your your experience would uh suggest you can do but there is and but that stuff is surmountable it's like if the if your biggest problem is that you worry that you might not be qualified for the job you're doing great but the real problem is that you might actually not be qualified for the job and you might get in there and after six months or a year you might get a really harsh negative performance review and that sucks and that might end up getting you fired yeah yeah and so then now you got a real problem on your hands that you don't want to deal with. So you can avoid that problem a little bit, but that's kind of a distant risk. And I'll tell

you that if you get all the way through the interview process and they assess you as a level that you think might be higher than you can perform at, and you don't perform, like this is the percentage chance that this actually comes to fruition and leads to this bad review and getting fired. It's just a small, small percentage. And it's a dice that I would roll all day long because the possible benefits are so good here. You might get a job that does stretch you professionally and give you all kinds of new opportunities you wouldn't have otherwise had. You might make a lot of money. You might improve your professional network and make a bunch of friendships and have all kinds of cross-team interactions you wouldn't have before

and other things that you might really love. And so to me, the possible upside here is both better then the downside is harmful and more likely yeah i think i agree with you i think i would go for it there is often pressure in interview processes not always but often to kind of down level folks if you have a concern about them it's pretty rare that you get sort of up leveled in the interview especially if you're not pushing really hard for it so i think i agree with you that that you can have some confidence that if you interview and get a job at a level, it's because they have some reason to believe that you'll do okay at that level. I think you probably also need to ask yourself, can I do this? And so maybe that means you are a little more careful in the interview to

try to clearly understand what the expectations are and responsibilities. Do I know how to do this? it's okay to say, to have that be a no, but like, could I ever do this? Hopefully the answer is yes, if it's a stretching role. It does feel bad if you use this to get into a role that you know you just can't and will not be able to do, then you are kind of setting yourself up for failure. But you have been given a gift and I think it makes sense to use it wisely. Yes, I agree. And let me just add one more thing. The companies you're applying for, they know about title inflation.

And when they read your resume- They probably have it too. Yeah, they might. Or like the company I worked for, the megacorp that I worked for, had title deflation. For them, the word senior meant technical lead. And the word principal was like unobtainium tier. So it was like very, very much title deflation. But the reason I bring that up is because in my experience, when we were interviewing people with

different titles from different companies, we did not care what their titles were. It had basically no bearing on it whatsoever. There were only a few factors that we cared about to get them into the right interviewing pipeline for the group of levels that they would be considered for, the group of titles. And that was years of experience and a general sense of scope of impact. So if you'd been in the industry for 10 plus years, you could go into the senior and principal interview pipeline. And if it was less, you'd probably be on the pre-senior pipeline because they had different interviewers and different processes, slightly different processes. But I'll tell you what, when the time came to actually choose a level for the people that we

were hiring, the resume that they had and the titles on that resume had zero to do with that. Absolutely zero. We never looked at them. We didn't care. We only cared about the data points we collected during the interview and maybe, maybe a brief resume review. In fact, I hardly ever looked at the resumes. The only reason I looked at resumes was so that I could read the names of the companies you worked for so that I could ask you more specific questions, like tell me about your job responsibilities while you were working at Fidelity, which was, for whatever reason, a very common source of applicants when I was working for my megacorp. Yeah, surprising, a lot of financial services anyway so long story short you're i think you're thinking too hard

about the impact that these titles will carry on the job interview process uh they just don't matter that much i think they can matter at some places to get you through some of the screening yes and to set expectations but that's a good thing great congrats yeah and like we will likely pass through the funnel more than similarly experienced candidates with different titles exactly overall so it's a little bit of a level up for you the other thing i want to say is that at least at the megacorp i worked for and frankly this is how i would operate anyway is that the probably the worst case here is that i would interview you and my team would interview you and we would come to the conclusion and we kill you wait no that is the theoretical worst

case you have correctly identified it we would know after we would interview you we would we would then assess all of your answers and your experience and we would say what level should this person be at and the worst case for us was we would reduce the level that we would be willing to offer you a job at and like that's fine like i don't care oh you came in and you were a senior principal staff super engineer it's like great at our company we call that senior engineer we needed like a giga engineer well have we answered this question i think so i hope it goes well good luck good luck what should we do nope i did it again why have i started saying what should we do i know what we're gonna do i know that i know that i know that it's been 402

episodes god or maybe 401 didn't we skip one anyways what should our listeners do if they would like their own questions answered. Go to softskills.audio and click the ask a question button where we show you a form where you can fill out our little question form. And thank you so much to our two listeners this week who wrote in to comment on the 404 episode. Genius, of course. And thank you so much to everyone else who provided feedback. We actually got some great feedback this week that we didn't get to read, but we will later about our answers to questions. We love it when you write in to say, here's how it went for me when I took your advice or didn't take your advice, especially if it went bad.

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