Soft Skills Engineering - Episode 408: Terrible retrospectives and "hard to work with"

Episode Date: May 13, 2024

In this episode, Dave and Jamison answer these questions: I am an electrical engineer working on and off with software for about 15 years. From mainframe applications with Cobol and PL/1 to plant floor supervisory systems with SCADA and some.Net along the way. 6 years ago my husband got an offer to move to Europe and I came along. Had to reinvent myself amidst the chaos of juggling life with a toddler, learning a new language and a new social tissue. After some time I landed a pretty nice job as a DevOps engineer at a pretty cool company. However, I have never really worked with scrum or agile methodologies before and, oh boy…I found out I HATE retrospectives. Like really hate them. They bring me down every time and I anticipate them with dreadful anxiety. I feel they’re just a way to blame other people for what’s not going so well and I don’t see ownership or any improvements actually being made. Action items are frequently just finger pointing and generally about people that are not even present in the retros. In order to improve engagement my boss said every team member is now responsible for the moderation of this dreadful thing and, surprise, surprise : I am next. How can I moderate something I just don’t believe in? I believe in improvement and learning from mistakes and I genuinely believe that we shouldn’t focus on people but processes. I also have to say my colleagues don’t feel the same way as they seem to love retros (yikes!). I think I’m too old/too skeptical for this. Please help!!! Ps.: I love your show and the episode on “that guy” changed my life. I’m forever grateful for the question asker and your answer. The Letter J: Can you please talk about the PIE theory (performance, image, exposure) and its importance, especially in highly political orgs? I lost my leadership role at a large GSI due to what I believe was a poor image. I felt I could not achieve targets without some level of collaboration (which became conflict once others didnt want to actually collaborate) We hit out targets, but unfortunately, by the time I realized I was labeled “hard to work with”, it was too late. Also, I hereby declare that Jamison is the Norm MacDonald of podcast, which is my highest compliment. Dave is some other comedian, also good. Seriously thank you both for all the humor and advice over the years, it’s been helpful and validating.

it takes more than doing code review with an overhead projector and transparencies to be a great software engineer this is episode 408 of the soft skills engineering podcast where i am your host jameson dance i'm your host and former transparency operator volunteer dave smith soft skills engineering is a weekly advice show about all the non-technical things that go into the technical field of software development. And this has to have happened at some point, right? Code review on an overhead projector? If not, we need to make sure it does happen. Yeah. I think the medium would really lend itself well to careful, thorough review of code. Something tells me that a non-zero percentage of our audience does not know what an overhead

projector and transparencies are. And I don't even know if I want to explain it because it's going to feel old and stupid. You know what? You'll never know because I'm not going to tell you. it's funny how they called it overhead projectors but they always said the word overhead projector put it on the overhead projector and i'm like what other kind of projector there's not like an underhead projector the underfoot projector maybe i don't know it's just weird yeah it was a weird time people you don't even want to know what it was like back then the thrill of drawing on them with those markers and seeing it live on the screen and then realizing you accidentally used a sharpie instead of the special overhead projector marker you ruined an entire transparency

the fumbling as you attempt to flip it the right way yeah it's upside down usb dongle where you do it twice you flip it it's the wrong way you flip it again it's still the wrong way right and then the third time you flip it it's right ah this is what people come here for the reminiscing of old technology okay moving on this episode was sponsored by new technology actually new technology called Datadog which is the best way to monitor

your tech stack you'll hear more about Datadog later in the show it's going to be cool I would like to thank our patrons thank you too do not and then the next entry is become a senior engineer dot com unsalted french fries are morally objectionable Dan from drone deploy

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and in return we're granted the fabulous rewards of the words i just said and an invite to our slack team which is great job offers flow in people sharing cool technical ideas good advice i learned stuff from it oh yeah for me the uh tech humor channel is a constant source of awesome memes it's pretty good today actually there was an insider someone filed a bug report internally with a product they used to work on so you get access to the secret cabal of inner workings of I won't tell you what product it is. Just imagine it's the product you wish you could most file a bug report with. And now you might know someone who works there. Now you know someone who works there who will do it for you.

Nice. One more thing I want to bring up. I am hiring. I'm hiring a senior software engineer at Droplet. It is a full stack web dev position. It's a small startup, about 50 people, strong growth, lots of runway. And our website is droplet.io. Find the careers page from that. if you can't find it it wouldn't work out anyways so yeah go there if you're interested if you're looking for a full stack it's javascript typescript react postgres building cool stuff i think you should you should change the title of the careers page to be congrats you've just passed the first phase of your interview yes so if you're looking this is remote united states only yeah check it out all right droplet

the careers page okay well read our first question yeah yes how did you know that's what i was going to offer to do it's amazing intuition my i finally honed intuition okay this comes from the happiest depressed developer i am an electrical engineer working on and off with software for about 15 years from mainframe applications with cobalt and pl1 to plant force supervisory systems with skata and some dot net along the way did i say skata correctly or is it scada like like scala i don't know i think i've googled this before like what this is but i don't remember what it is yeah this tells you that i don't know what it is i know i actually do know it has something to do with control systems anyway skater i actually have

an engineer who works on my team who has worked in skater who informed me of that a few weeks ago and then i forgot how it was pronounced okay moving on six years ago my husband got an offer to move to europe and i came along i had to reinvent myself amidst the chaos of juggling life with a toddler learning a new language and a new social it says tissue and social fabric kind of it's a fabric that's very weak yeah is that do you think that am i reading that right i don't know i like it if it is the metaphor that i think it is i like it and if it's a metaphor if it's some other metaphor i'm not thinking of i like it even more okay after some time i landed a pretty nice job as a devops engineer at a pretty cool company however i have never really worked with

scrum or agile methodologies before and oh boy i found that i hate retrospectives like really hate them they bring me down every time and i anticipate them with dreadful anxiety i feel they're just a way to blame other people for what's not going so well and i don't see ownership or any improvements actually being made action items are frequently just finger pointing and generally about people that are not even present in the retros in order to improve engagement my boss said every team member is now responsible for the moderation of this dreadful thing. And surprise, surprise, I am next. How can I moderate something I just don't believe in? I believe in improvement and learning from mistakes. And I genuinely believe that we shouldn't focus on people but processes.

I also have to say my colleagues don't feel the same way as they seem to love retros. Yikes. I think I'm too old or too skeptical for this. Please help. P.S. I love your show. And the episode on quote that guy changed my life i'm forever grateful for the question ask her and your answer thank you all right what was the that guy episode do you know i don't know i remember it with fondness james and i think it was a great episode as i do all 407 other episodes of the show they live bright and shiny in my mind at a moment's notice i can recall them all yep okay you hate the retro you are the moderator for the retro can you make the retro go poorly enough that you never have to be the moderator again or that you're

and even a higher bar is that your team never does a retro again you killed the process forever yeah yeah although that could turn out badly because if your retrospective goes so bad they might actually call for a retrospective about your retrospective and you might end up with more retros retros all the way down i this is so interesting to me i do i hmm i think retros can be helpful and this feels like the kind of thing i would hope someone would bring up at a retro it's like hey i hate these yes it feels useless we're just blaming people who aren't even here nothing ever happens like it seems like a good time to bring up something that i think isn't working well yeah exactly is this retro it's this very retrospective

well actually that doesn't work because the word retro means past so what would it be called if you're actually criticizing something that's unfolding in this moment i don't know it's like a presto spective i think i'm being kind of serious though i feel like i mean maybe it's hard to do if if the thing you hate is the place where you talk about stuff that isn't going well but i hate retrospectives i hate them anxiety there is i have observed this about some retros where they can get very raw people really open themselves up and it can be this outpouring of emotions and energy and sometimes i'm like tired after them not every retro is like this but it It can feel kind of intense sometimes.

I think that's the point, but I could also see that being nerve-wracking for someone. I've never really felt this level of intensity or anxiety in a retrospective. I don't know if it's because I am totally un-self-aware, but I really love retrospectives. But I got to tell you, I've never participated in one that sounds like this. Just finger-pointing action items

are actually just an excuse to call out that someone else did something wrong that's awesome action items stop being such a loser steve this is one's assigned to steve be sure to put steve's name on this one yeah stop being a loser deadline now it's due now this is super toxic the way this is described here it really is it's awful but i think james and you're saying that even when retros are going well they can sometimes feel raw and emotion filled yeah it sounds like if if it's complaining about people who aren't in the room it might be kind of a place to air grievances and just gripe like oh that deadline that was pushed on us last minute really sucked and it it i mean yeah the vp said it so it kind

of happened and depose the vp that's the action that's the action of this retro deposed so maybe if you focus it more on i mean you're the moderator so you do have some some power to shape this maybe you focus it more on stuff that is more in the team's control I mean, what if you start the retrospective by establishing some new ground rules? Like, I mean, I'm just going to go through the checklist of things that you hate about retrospectives. So finger pointing and making it about people who aren't even present in the retros. I think, I don't know, maybe could you stand up at the beginning and say, all right, here are some things we're not going to do. We're not going to talk about people that aren't in the room.

If we want to talk about them, we're going to invite them. Yeah, I like that. Like leaving improvement and learning from mistakes. You want to know the single best thing that I've seen make retrospectives better? What? It's when individuals take responsibility for mistakes. It's when they say, I made this mistake. It was my bad.

Now, this can be taken too far, by the way. I've actually had people take it too far. And I can explain that in a minute. But when you say, I made this mistake, here are the sequence of events that led to that mistake. And typically, every step sounds pretty reasonable. But it got you to a mistake anyway. And so then you say, I'm personally going to do this to work on it. But that's not really the point of a retrospective.

You just say that to kind of put people at ease. You know, like, here's the things I did wrong. Here's what I'm going to do to improve. But that, it's kind of a secondary or kind of a means to an end. The end is that you want to fix your processes. You got bad processes. You got bad technology. You got bad tools.

Something is going wrong. You got bad organizational incentives. I don't know what it is. But the retrospective's purpose is to suss those things out so that you can fix them. And they should result in tickets where it's like, fix our code review tool so that it automatically prevents this kind of error, you know, that kind of thing. That's like the best possible outcome for a retrospective action item. Yeah, I like that.

It does sometimes take someone to break the ice a little bit and show that it is a safe place to actually talk about stuff that didn't go well. I can tell you an example of when someone takes too far, that ice breaking and they kind of fall on their sword metaphorically. We actually had a production outage and the person who caused the production outage was doing some clicking in one of our hosting providers tools and just clicked the wrong button. He thought he was in the staging environment.

He was actually in production, thought he was making a change to a particular resource, but it was actually account wide for the whole account and just shut down a bunch of stuff on accident. And he said, I'm so sorry. I'm a terrible engineer. I didn't mean to do that. I'm really bad. yeah please revoke my production access and i'm like not gonna do that first of all you're never

gonna click that button again because you're gonna be too scared so now you're actually safer than you were before the incident and second of all this the problem the reason this problem happened is because our staging account and our production account are in the same account that is not your fault that's something we should fix because if you had done this on staging no one would have cared but but because you those accounts are on the same they're merged into the same account on our hosting provider like who am i kidding it's aws i just want to be clear it's an aws console oh the big reveal i'm not yeah surprise someone clicked the wrong button in an aws console and created an outage it's like the aws console is like the number one source of outages in the world

the point i'm trying to make is that it doesn't help that having someone volunteer to revoke their production access to the AWS console does not help. What helps is separating your staging and production accounts so that they can't, this just can't happen. I have seen similar behavior to that. It becomes self-flagellating. And as someone prone to that, it makes sense why you do that. You feel bad about it. You want to show people, look, I'm sorry. I recognize how big of a deal this was and one way to do that it can that can seem natural is to say i just suck i'm the worst oh yeah and but it doesn't help anything like that's right i don't know everyone else feels weird no one wants to see you grovel exactly i've actually had an engineer who said

i kind of had him i'm like hey could you do a write-up for me and just explain the sequence of events that led to this so i can understand where there might be a systems problem and he literally wrote like this happened because of x this happened because of x and this happened because i am a bad engineer and i was like okay like i actually don't think you're a bad engineer this is just it's not helpful it's kind of grovelly so anyway we've kind of gone down this path one of my favorite engineers i've ever worked with just absolutely blew away production database by mucking around thinking it was in dev and oh yeah it happens it does happen anyway so So we got here because we were talking about the extreme wrong direction of what I was saying, like taking what I'm saying to the extreme, which is groveling and, you know, woe is me, I'm so bad.

It's like, okay, have I paid enough penance yet? Like, do you guys all forgive me now? Yeah, yeah. Like you, yeah, you feel like you have to pay for your sins and it makes sense to you. Like, yeah, I mean, I feel bad. I need to do this. And then if you saw someone else doing it, you'd be like, oh, stop. We're all uncomfortable.

You kind of gross me out. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. We're professionals. So that's a ground rule. Yeah, we're professionals. We should be able to break production without any consequences. Professionally. So I don't know. I kind of feel like maybe your company needs some new ground rules and they need someone to demonstrate them. And this is the challenging part is that

retrospectives go well when the participants stick with these ground rules, but it's so tempting to leave the ground rules and say well i want to blame bob you know bob is so irresponsible and bob's not even in the room you know i've that's interesting because i've i've never seen that when the when bob is actually in the room i've never seen it become that hostile or aggressive yeah because when bob's in the room people just don't talk about it yeah they just ancillary stuff not real not real not real bob yeah well no it's not like they don't bring the real true ah yes feelings to it that's right they just kind of go through the motions and then realize nothing's going to change on this one because bob's in the room yeah and there is also a line where you say

people you say people over processes or whatever you know we're going to focus on fixing processes we're not going to focus on blaming people that's true but there is no process that can be so perfect that someone who either has malicious intent or just lacks basic skills can't break it you know so at some point you do have to acknowledge that there is no process strong enough to withstand bob and so maybe bob is the right person for this team on the other hand this is just not the right place to have that conversation it's like there is a place for that and that's with bob's manager yeah well have we answered the question i don't know i guess not quite i want to i just want to make a case for retrospectives i think i think this person

it's kind of like when someone says i do scrum and you're like oh really how long are your sprints well we don't do sprints oh really do you do stand-up i mean no we don't do stand-up and i'm like oh you're doing something and you're calling it scrum but it's not scrum and so here i feel like they're doing something they're calling it a retrospective but it's not really a retrospective this is something else and i would probably oh man in this situation i mean knowing myself i would probably go sit down with the person who's responsible for shaping these retrospectives and it sounds like maybe it's the let's see manager because someone got who was it oh yeah my boss said every team member is responsible for moderating this dreadful thing i would go to your

boss and say i have i have some feedback on how our retrospectives are running i think they can be better and the hard thing about giving feedback to this question asker is that maybe they've never actually witnessed an effective retrospective and that that will make it hard to describe what it should be but at the very least you could say here are some behaviors that are not helpful i think you should do it all right dave says do it many careers have been ruined by following that simple advice but not yours interestingly enough not yet all right hey jameson have you ever worked on a sass project with no observability tools yes

right now it's about as fun as digging a hole with your shoe this is where data dog comes in you add a few lines into your code and boom you've got observability you get error monitoring performance monitoring traces dashboards logs it's really helpful to see all the information without a ton of effort too. It makes it so much faster to debug problems. I get lost. You're kind of like hypothesizing about what's going on without something like this.

Yeah. And you get to see the exact stuff that's happening. Exactly. Datadog lets you see where you are overspending on your hosting bill too. So you can be the hero that in this climate, you can save the company money on your AWS, Azure, or GCP bills

and your CFO will give you hugs. Datadog is integrated with over 700 tools and has out-of-the-box dashboards to start monitoring services like AWS, pager systems, and even password managers in minutes. You can get a two-week free trial with Datadog at datadoghq.com slash softskills. And if you add Datadog to your code and set up a dashboard, you can get a free Datadog t-shirt shipped to you. And trust me, it's really cute.

Are you offering to send like model shots to prove up to you this day? My face ruins the shirt, but it has a cute dog on it. That's datadoghq.com slash soft skills. You can go add Datadog to your software today and get this great shirt with an adorable dog. Shall I read our next one? Yes, please do it. This is from a listener named The Letter J. Can you please talk about the pie theory, performance image exposure, and its importance, especially in highly political orgs?

i lost my leadership role at a large gsi due to what i believe was a poor image i felt i could not achieve targets without some level of collaboration which became conflict once others didn't actually want to collaborate we hit our targets but unfortunately by the time i realized it i was labeled by the time i realized i was labeled hard to work with it was too late also i hereby declare that jameson is the norm mcdonald of the podcast which is my highest compliment david some other comedian also good which is my highest insult for all the humor and advice over the years it's been very helpful and validating thank you i love norm mcdonald so i don't think i'm the norm mcdonald but i

appreciate the comparison it is very flattering oh yeah it is for sure a compliment that guy was a genius what is a gsi i believe this might stand for global systems integrator okay what is that I don't know. Is that a consulting company? It sounds like a consulting company. Systems Integrator sounds like a company that does prime contracting for the US government and only gets work done by subcontracting with dozens of smaller companies. Help you manage complex IT landscapes and optimize ongoing IT operations.

This seems like a place where you could get political. Oh, yeah. Sounds like giant megacorps with huge contracts and slow-moving projects that never go well. Always over budget. There's always something to blame someone for. International companies that specialize in combining and integrating different technology systems and solutions. Okay. I just made up.

I mean, I didn't make up the acronym, but I just kind of guessed based on a Google search. So let's not read too much into that for fear that I am wrong. Well, I don't have anything else that it could be. So I'm going to ignore your advice and assume 100% that's what it is. All right. Let's go with that. Yeah. So I lost my leadership role because of poor image.

Isn't that interesting how some people can get labeled and you don't realize the label is happening. You're going about your day. You're hitting all your targets. You're reaching all your goals. And then suddenly you realize, oh my gosh, my co-workers have perceived me as hard to work with. sure would have been great if someone had told me that so i could i don't know change something

about the way i work yeah it's at some point image becomes reality as well because if you're perceived as hard to work with things that you do will come across differently than if you weren't stuff that is just kind of normal banter might be perceived as like very aggressive yeah rudeness or something you know yeah so it's kind of it could be self-reinforcing right oh it for sure is narratives like this are definitely self-reinforcing when someone gets labeled i mean you see this in social circles as well someone gets labeled as something and maybe it's like a passing comment that someone else made yeah like when when all my friends call me cool guy jameson like as as always happens in every friend group

it's a lot of pressure to be so cool all the time like man that is jameson he is so cool i just can never shake that reputation that i'm so cool i see it for sure yes that's why you're the norm mcdonald of our yeah exactly yeah so that definitely carries weight i mean not knowing what people are how people are labeling you and maybe maybe no one even said it out loud i don't know but that's really rough so how do you manage that you stand up in a cafeteria and you say does anyone think i'm hard to work with get over here so we can fight i'll show you how easy i am to work with we hit our targets so i wonder if this was maybe you were maybe you were really

pushing to hit those targets and that came across as hard to work with because you were pushing I don't know, maybe people had to work extra hours or the time I was realized, huh? There's like a thousand reasons that you could be labeled hard to work with, right? But the fact that you were actually competent and still got that label tells me, it probably tells me a little bit more about this organization than it does about you. You know, in an organization where you can lose a leadership position because you're hard to work with, but actually you're delivering all the results the business needs you to deliver, tells me this organization sucks potentially.

yeah yeah i could see that most organizations that i've been part of they tend to look the other way when people are in fact even when people are extremely toxic if they're delivering results they often will just look the other way and and it's like fine i don't care yeah that's a good point maybe to a fault even i'd say yeah i mean that sounds bad when you say it like that so maybe your your company has other failings yeah could not achieve the targets about some level of collaboration hmm so i think there's a couple things to talk about here one is why were you labeled hard to work with and how do you do you do anything to address that but there's a broader question about how do you get a feel for how you are perceived by people who may not be comfortable

saying negative things directly to you because it's usually kind of the back channel it's other people talking about you not yeah i'm saying directly to you stuff for sure how do you how do you get a pulse on that i think you're gonna have to do undercover boss you show up with the fake mustache and the thick glasses yes boy i hear that i hear that letter j is a real hard driving no nonsense easy to work with person a hello worker that reminds me of the saturday night live sketch for kylo ren goes undercover boss on the death star or wherever everyone knows they all pretend to go along with it i i actually got some good advice i got some advice from a a career coach actually just a couple months ago who said you know when you're working with people

you can put out a vibe while you're in discussions with people and not really realize it and like for me one of the vibes that i tend to put off when i'm deeply engaged in an engineering problem is i put off vibes that i'm feeling frustrated but this is like furrowing my brow touching my forehead like thinking really hard frowning you know and i'm loving it right like this is like one of my favorite modes to be in is thinking through engineering problems like this. But I think I look like frustrated Dave, like the image isn't too different. And so my career coach guy said, you know, you should consider telling people what you're thinking and feeling out loud. And it will completely change the dynamic of the interaction. And he said, when you're in this

mode where you're doing deep technical problem solving and deep thinking and talking, just take a moment and tell people like, hey, I really enjoy this and I'm glad we get to do this together. Thank you for this opportunity. Now, I'm going to go into my deep thinking mode for a minute here, you know, so just get the narrative, get the correct narrative out into the open. I have seen this happen so powerfully in my recent work history, actually, where by not explicitly providing information i i leave a vacuum which can be filled in ways i do not anticipate and yeah i totally agree that if if you're more upfront if you like you could say dave hey if i'm frustrated i will say i am frustrated yeah and and if i look frustrated

but i haven't said that i'm probably not i'm probably just thinking hard about something yes and help people interpret these signals because especially i mean i don't know you're always trying to look at your boss and figure out like what's going on in their head am i doing a good job like yeah the more explicit you can be with people the easier it will be yes and the more this effect is amplified the higher on the org chart you live if you're an individual contributor as a developer doing work on your team most people are not thinking about how you feel and they're not trying to guess your emotional state as much as if you are on the org chart one level above them or two levels above them. Now, suddenly people really care, like, is Dave annoyed?

How's he feeling? And I'm like, you know what? I agree, Jameson. I owe it to people to tell them how I'm feeling. Because otherwise, well, for two reasons. Number one, frankly, I just don't want them to have to wonder. I think it's a courtesy. But the other reason is what you said, which is the higher you are on this org chart, the more people will naturally assume. And sometimes they might assume wrong and it could lead to people thinking things are are the way they're not i wonder if you can yeah i don't know it's it's tricky because you you don't you don't want to just completely mold your personality to the approval of others i can tell you from experience it's a hard life but you do need some feedback so i think it's helpful if you find a trusted

colleague that you can pull and maybe they're talking to other people maybe they hear stuff I don't know they're not tattling on other people but they might be able to say hey when you pounded your fist on the table because you were so

pumped your scream of joy did not come across as you thought it would and really freaked people out your scream of joy your blood-curdling scream of joy yeah that's a good point i agree i think a trusted mentor can be very helpful because as crazy as it sounds people will give candid feedback to other people about you even if they

believe that that feedback is going to get back to you yes they're like a hundred times more willing to say it yeah so having a mentor who can collect that intel about you is really helpful or spy right mentor spy you know it's a fine line we walk i guess if you're a spy your mentor probably is a spy too good point tradecraft mentorship yes yes the tradecraft of global systems integration that's right well have we answered the question i have no more words about the question so i think yes perfect let's summarize get a mentor tell people how you're feeling and thinking and then i'll add just one quick thing which is if a narrative is forming about you among other people that is

harmful you can counteract that narrative with your own narrative and sometimes by telling people hey i'm interested in being easy to work with what's the best way we can proceed here you can just say out loud like you don't have to sneak up on this you know you don't have to convince you know those memes that are like tell me you're easy to work with without telling me you're easy to work with it's like yeah yeah no just tell me you're easy to work with you know like tell me that and i can work with that because now they know that you have a stated goal of being easy to work with and they're even more likely to give you input when they detect that you're not being easy to work with. Yeah, that's a good point. And saying, especially around being easy to work with,

like saying I would like to be easier to work with is the kind of thing that makes you easy to work with. Exactly. Actually, that's a really good point. I love it. All right. I think we've answered it. What can people do if they want their own questions answered, Dave? Go to softskills.audio and click the ask a question button where you can fill out our little form. As always, we must tell you, thank you. From the bottom of my heart and the bottom of my co-host Norm MacDonald's heart, Thank you for all these wonderful questions that come in every week. Thank you. Thank you.

We appreciate it. We love hearing about how it's going and we'll catch you next week.