Soft Skills Engineering - Episode 431: Stinky.js and power hungry friend

Episode Date: October 21, 2024

In this episode, Dave and Jamison answer these questions: Hey! Love your podcast! I’ve been poached by a startup which sounds really exciting but I’m worried whether it is a good career move for me. I am currently working with backend, however this company would have more of a full stack role and it would be lots of nodeJS and Typescript 🤢 anything javascript related screams frontend to me and it is not something I want to be good at. However, besides this, the product sounds interesting and I would definitely have a lot to learn. I also have this inferior feeling that I’m lacking skills because I didn’t study CS. Will I still be able to become a good engineer even if that’s in NodeJS? 😁 Listener Ben asks, Hiya! I’m a young developer with a broad range of experience (everything from hardware to full-stack web and mobile), and I’ve found myself quite useful at many startups. I just started a new position at a nice startup in my area, but I’m being recruited by one of my close friends from college. He’s the power-hungry type, currently working at a mega-tech corp but wants to make a startup and get rich. He’s very smart and charming, and while I am skeptical of his ability to make a great product I think he can certainly raise a bunch of investment capital without too much worry. My question is: would you ever consider joining a close friend’s startup, and if so what would you need (in terms of contract/equity/salary, runway, savings) to be confident about making that commitment? Thanks!

it takes more than reading how many story points each team did at the monthly sprint retrospective to be a great engineering team this is soft skills engineering episode 431 i'm your host dave smith i'm your host jameson dance soft skills engineering is a weekly advice podcast for software developers who just love story points i love them the most which is why i do the most story points there's a does this happen do you think what i feel like there's a bunch of literature saying you cannot compare them across teams i mean it has to happen surely though there's a bunch of stuff saying like don't eat glue and people do that so uh oh yeah for sure that it happens don't compare across teams don't compare across people

don't use them to estimate a team's velocity wait i thought you were supposed to do that hang on i just don't use them at all yeah it feels like there's more you are not supposed to do with story points than you are supposed to do with them you know at my last job we put story points on things and spent quite a bit of time doing that and it felt very important and useful and i have not put a single story point on a single thing at this job and do you feel less useful and less important now no i mean yeah you know i haven't thought about this a ton maybe things would be a lot better if we had put them on how do you look at yourself in the mirror without story points it's embarrassing i just assume i have an infinite well of story points

within me and that's why i'm worthwhile as a human being yes your value can be measured in story points but the number is infinite the eternal nature of the soul which is really can distill down to story points many many story points yes an infinite number dave should i thank your patrons i was hoping you would and maybe we should i'd assign a number of story points to each of them they're all the same number but i won't say what the number is okay thank you so much to the folks who we shout out uh every week because they love us so much they give us a lot of story points a lot of story points worth of currency thank you to nick molyneux big chungus i'm happy for you and i'm gonna let you finish but hawk 2 is the funniest meme of all time a one-time

shout out to ill wangle square bracket object object square bracket javier gonzalez chewy ted timbrel become a senior engineer.com unsalted french fries are morally objectionable dan from drone to play chase w norton level up your typescript with type here.dev never is not just a crater on mars flamingo emoji i like chicken i like liver miyamix miyamix please deliver trash panda kyle boss kensi dodds nivar is not just a planet in the vulcan system jenny kim owen shardo the stochastic parrot helicone.ai best observability tool for ai red panda is best panda everyone in this list jonathan king deny beautiful functional user documentation i like miyamix i like chicken oh no wait

www.illwangle.com that's www.illwangle.com I just bought a house Travis, Brayden Keynes, John Grant if you would like to join this illustrious crew to go to softskills.audio and click the support us on patreon button please someone put this on a shirt I use them but I'm not

good at it thank you so much we appreciate it we show our appreciation both by shouting you out and by inscribing you on the insides of all of our clothes right so you're always close to our hearts right next to the story points yes exactly if you want to join them if you want to help support the show you can do the thing go to soft skills the audio click support us on patreon you get stupendous benefits like an

invite to our slack team which is great and i think probably where the real value lies honestly and that you get at any amount but if you really want to contribute really want to help out and make us say dumb stuff or your name up to you or both depending on your name yeah that's true if your name is we don't want a dumb name yeah we didn't want to exclude anyone yeah we'll never tell you that it's dumb though yeah then then contribute the level it says that i can't remember right now i believe that the most value you can get from listening to this show is hearing that there's a slack community that you can join by contributing on patreon and the rest of the show you can just turn off. It is the secret weapon of the show. There's great stuff in there. I feel

like I learn every time I read and ruin things every time I write, but it's not just life. All right. Well, this episode is sponsored by WorkOS, the best way to add a single sign-on to your software product. Stay tuned to hear more about how WorkOS can benefit you and make your life a little bit better they might even give you some story points dave should i read our next question i'm glad you asked permission because i wasn't going to grant it but you asked so nicely that i feel like i have to say yes i'll give you five story points oh do it so let me read the next question okay i need this is from an anonymous listener who says hey love your podcast i've been poached by a startup which sounds really exciting but i'm worried whether it's a good career move

for me i'm currently working with backend however this company would have more of a full stack role and it would be lots of Node.js and TypeScript. Sad, pukey emoji. Anything JavaScript-related screams front-end to me and is not something I want to be good at. However, the product sounds interesting and I would definitely have a lot to learn. I also have this inferior feeling that I'm lacking skills

because I didn't study computer science. Will I still be able to become a good engineer even if it's in Node.js? Oh, the whole Node community is just like wailing right now. I feel like the Node community has become big enough that there's not really, when it's smaller and earlier, there's much more of a

it feels like much more of an entity. And now it's like saying the community of people who buy gas at gas stations. I mean, technically that is a way you can group people, but it's a lot of people. The thing they share most in common is mostly just that they buy gas at gas stations. More than an

ethos about life or software development. There's like a 99.9% overlap among the gas station community and the people who drink water community yeah i only drink brondo is that the drink from idiocracy i don't know got electrolytes what plants crave so i feel like we could talk about the specifics of the tech stack because i think there's some interesting things to to talk about knowing the place that node and typescript and javascript have in the broader kind of like web programming world but we could also talk about it in generic terms of just like imagine any tech stack that you aren't the most in love with and

i don't know if one of those is better than the other i think everyone would appreciate knowing all of the hilarious opinions that we have on this particular tech stack rather than giving generic broadly applicable and evergreen advice you should only write typescript that can be understood by a caveman my typescript opinion if you ever have to dive deep into weird typescript internals or lesser-known corners then your team will be sad any is there for a reason just just any your way out of it yeah perfect with those two highly valuable typescripts be sacrificed upon the altar of type yeah type soundness and editor auto-completion hmm yeah so clearly let's go with the broad

generally applicable advice here about should you take a job should you take a job whose tech stack you are not thrilled about but whose product you like and what else what were the other pros here products i learned a lot lots to learn and then the cs bit i don't know if that really i don't know i guess it kind of fits in i'll fit it in don't worry okay yeah i mean i i'm the kind of person who will take a job change for the sole reason that it forces me to reboot my tech stack to a completely new set of technologies and languages i find it to be very very valuable and as long as that language slash tech stack slash technologies are more or less mainstream yeah leaning towards more mainstream then i think it's always a good move i've spent

javascript and that ecosystem is the single language i've spent kind of the most of my career and i've done a bunch of stuff but it's done more javascript than any other thing at work but i feel like i don't really care that much about the tech stack anymore mostly some of that's just role and the more management you do the less you should care i think for for most people but i mean i i have like a java is this stinky gross thing hold my nose superiority about that and maybe php a little bit earlier in my career and i don't think i would care like if it was a cool opportunity you can build cool stuff in any language and they're going to be warts and pains in any language okay visual basic go so by any language what i really

meant was i don't think i would want to learn the things i would learn by taking a software engineering job that used visual basic yeah i will let you extrapolate from there it was very diplomatic jameson the the point is there is a broad kind of middle of the bell curve of i don't know 20 ish languages that like you can mention and people will all have heard of and i feel like i could be fine writing any of them which maybe means i lack passion and i'm boring i was talking about how excited i was about active directory today so i guess that's true but i do see this as like more of an earlier career thing to have really strong opinions about the tech stack

and then you kind of like get the rough edges of caring about the programming language worn away by the gritty sandpaper of shipping stuff to production. I think I would care more about the quality of the engineering team and the quality of the engineering than the tech stack because I feel like that will have a much bigger impact.

I'm assuming you're not going to just absolutely hate typing like whatever the character is you type a lot in this language. I don't know. It's not the semicolon. It could be though. We've got editors to take care

of for that. Editors. Yeah. I said words to make sense. I swear. Hmm. I think I'm just telling you to suck it up because I would suck it up and what you are doing is what you should do is what i would do right of course i know i sorry go ahead no i insist you go ahead i mean

i think that it's hard to have a strong negative opinion about a language or framework like type script from node.js until you've actually worked in it and have you met any developers ever dave i think your statement is false it's super easy to have a really strong negative opinion hard was the wrong word for that particular phrase let me put it this way it's hard to have a well justified negative opinion about a language okay or framework that makes sense that you haven't worked in and one of the outcomes here is that if you think you hate typescript and nojs now wait until you've used it for a few years then you can really talk yeah i mean yeah now that i'm thinking about this i worked at a megacorp and we used go there

it was a small team within the company that used go maybe it was because it was go and go was pretty new when when this group got started i think they started using it like i don't know 2012 or something pretty early in its life cycle and they i think they probably all would have quit if we said good news where we've rewritten it in node yeah so there definitely are people out there that the specific programming language is important to them but i almost feel like they're more like i want to work with this thing maybe a bit stronger than i will never touch this other thing like people who are really into rust or closure or i don't know there there is there is a a yeah an ethos or worldview that you can kind of absorb and feel really comfortable in

but i get the impression that you're not there yet it's not like you're saying i really don't want to stop working with this thing i'm working with it's more like i just don't want to use this thing yeah and i think that there was another piece of stigma here that's influencing this question asker which is front-end development he or she said anything javascript related screams front-end to me and it is not something i want to be i want to be good at that's an interesting take. And I understand the mentality. I've seen that mentality, but I don't think it's a good or accurate way to view the world of software development and what you, quote, want to be good at. I don't know. Maybe this is born from a place of not wanting to be pigeonholed as just the

front-end person and not capable of doing the whole system, something like that. I don't know where this comes from, but I did a lot of front-end in my career and it was great. It's very challenging to do front-end well and if you think you're good at error handling and edge cases and you haven't done front-end then you're in for a wild ride maybe a big wake-up call it's hard and i think it does make people better engineers to do front-end yeah i could see it being not the kind of thing you want to get good at if you're really into kind of back-end systems and databases and distributed yada yada kubernetes something or other like it is a separate skill set or separate specialty that you have to invest in to get really good at

there's there's kind of ui engineers who are both good at making it look and behave right and doing it in a way that the code doesn't make you hate yourself and i i don't have that skill set I can kind of like bash it into place and then woe to the person behind me that has to extend or modify the UI code that I've written. But there's a bunch of business logic that for better or for worse lives on the front end now. Like there's more to front end than the user facing outermost edge. So there's some room there. I think it is valuable to be able to do everything even if you don't like it. And most people that are full stack still have an area they prefer or specialize in the full stack piece doesn't mean front to back

you're equally productive wherever the front is and wherever the back extends to it's more like you can kind of do it all and there's some parts you might go a little bit slower or be a little bit worse at but it is valuable to have one person that can build a feature end to end because they don't have to context switch or or hand off the tasks a bunch they just now have to context switch between the different layers of the stack and sometimes that's easier than slicing it up by stack and handing those pieces to different teams it is a bit different of a pain so i don't know i i think if you go into it thinking front-end developers are all stinky losers who are intellectual cretins you'll be sad and you'll cause problems if you go into it thinking this

is not my jam but i think i could i could still learn something here that could be broadly applicable i think that'll be true but if yeah if you go into it with contempt and think like i'm too good for this you you have a limited view of what good is and don't do it then but if you feel like i don't love it but i think the benefits are worth it and i think i can i can i can grow and learn from this yeah go for it yeah yeah all right have we answered the question we have and i think we do want to offer our opinion that in this case, this particular technology stack is so mainstream that I'm not worried about it one bit. It's not like you're going off into some esoteric cobweb-filled corner of programming language academia and getting a bunch of experience

that no one will recognize as valuable. This is fine. It's great. And I don't think being associated with front-end will harm your career. And I also don't think that TypeScript and Node.js will harm your career. In fact, I think you have a lot to learn potentially from TypeScript. It has one of the world's among mainstream languages it has one of the world's most advanced comprehensive type systems and the most one of the most expressive and capable as well and i think it has a lot to teach every developer about what their language is not doing for them yeah or how bad you can screw yourself over by using all the really complicated features right how will you develop restraint if you don't have

infinite power yeah exactly that's true how yeah if you don't program your light your your software your application is not built out of typescript generics no actual runtime code right how will you have grown as a human our web application is run by the typescript compiler yep it is turing complete have you seen the wordle built in just typescript types no i'll drop a link in the show notes that yeah there's someone someone built a game that runs entirely in typescript types wow like ui and everything too does that mean that it's essentially interpreted kind of i don't know i'm gonna have to look into this i'll show it to you and let you answer the question i know the answer but i want you to discover it for yourself yeah it'll be it'll

be more enjoyable i swear thank you i appreciate that yeah you're welcome you're always looking my experience to be better. I would hate to squash your learning, Dave. Yeah. Okay. Jameson, I just want to randomly tell you this important fact that I have worked for three companies that have built their own SSO implementation, and these were some of the biggest mistakes I've made as an engineer. That's foreshadowing. We want to tell you how to avoid this mistake. Yeah, it does seem straightforward at first, But then you remember there's OAuth, OIDC, SAML, SKIM, RBAC, a bunch of other acronyms that you only find out about when you get paged. And some of these acronyms, you don't even know what they stand for, but you are responsible for them.

Okay, this is where WorkOS comes in. WorkOS makes it easy for developers to add SSO and other enterprise features to their app rather than building it from scratch yourself. We actually use WorkOS where I work right now, and they have amazing docs. Their kind of developer-facing stuff is great. They've got example apps in a bunch of different languages, Node.js, Python, PHP, Go. It's nice. Yeah, and sometimes people worry, well, do I actually get to maintain control over my UI? And yes, WorkOS provides a login UI toolkit called AuthKit, which uses Radix themes, which are open source.

And so you actually have tons of customizability over the look and feel. Yep. It's a drop-in replacement for Auth0, and it gives you really great pricing. One million monthly active users for free. One million monthly active users. I feel like I should twiddle my mustache as I say that. Recently, WorkOS acquired a company called Warrant that provides fine-grained authorization and role-based access control, or RBAC.

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Do you want to read our next question? Yes, I do. This comes from a listener named Ben. Hiya! I'm a young developer with a broad range of experience, everything from hardware to full-stack web and mobile, and I've found myself quite useful at many startups. I just started a new position at a nice startup in my area, but I'm being recruited by one of my close friends from college. He's the power-hungry type, currently working at a megatech corp, but wants to make a startup and get rich. He's very smart and charming. And while I am skeptical of his ability to make a great product, I think he can certainly raise a bunch of investment capital without too much worry. My question is, would

you ever consider joining a close friend's startup? And if so, what would you need in terms of contract, equity, salary, runway, savings, to be confident about making that commitment? Thanks. There's some red flags here. you know the movie the social network i do yes if so i haven't seen it that's making me an expert on it but from what i've picked up via youtube short clips of it you're sort of like like my friend is the bad guy from this movie should i join a startup with them you will definitely have an experience and i as i predict the experience will lead to you not being friends with this person anymore but skeptical of his ability to make a great product but can certainly

raise a bunch of investment capital yeah that um that uh i assume that means your friend has ideas about ai that feels like what this is your friend has heard the words ai that's what it takes to raise capital yeah uh yeah yeah i mean oh i'm thinking about this and i'm thinking yeah raising capital and building a great product they are definitely two skills that often don't come together and that's fine and do which one would i want to work with do you feel like you can build a great product me no i mean i guess the question is you too yeah also does ben feel that way yeah i think well you better feel that way if you're gonna join this crew yeah being recruited power hungry type working a medic so are you being recruited

to be a co-founder i would first try and figure out what is being recruited mean especially if friend is the power i don't know okay so maybe this is like a example of like uh we didn't know we didn't know and we wouldn't have dared to do it if we knew how hard it would be etc but i don't think i would join a startup with a person who i would describe as power hungry who wants to get rich and that just feels like do they want to work hard do they want to build cool stuff it's gonna it's brutally hard no matter how good you are at anything but if they're power hungry and want to get rich that doesn't feel like the recipe for like successful startup dumb necessarily oh it sounds like a recipe for successful getting rich dumb by that one person and yeah i mean if if this

friend was really great at building awesome products and was uh wanted to get rich then i would say there's a good chance you're going to have a great time and get rich too but if they suck at making great products but they really want to get rich and they're very charming and smart and power hungry very good chance they're going to get rich and you're going to walk away angry it's like the uh the early steve jobs steve wozniak situation yeah except what if steve jobs also was not good at product stuff right exactly that's you that's your situation um well it's a skeptical it doesn't say they're bad at it it's just okay maybe maybe you don't know that they're good at it i mean close friends from college yeah i i would not do this but i am

not you and if i were to do it i would want to be very clear up front what i'm joining what my what my am i a co-founder do i own 50 of this company are we both vesting so it's not like we both have 50% now and then they leave and they own 50% of the company that they worked for three months on. And I don't know. There's some legal and contract stuff to figure out. None of that can protect you fully from a power-hungry, charming, smart person that wants to screw you over badly enough. With their smile. Yeah. So I think that's exactly what this question is about, is what would you need to join a company

like this. And they specifically mentioned contract, equity, salary. And I think that let's walk down the runway, no pun intended, of possible outcomes here. It's more like rabbit holes than runways, I think. So either you go high on equity and low on salary, that means you're offered a big percentage of the company or stock option, usually in the form of stock options. Or if you are a founder like Jameson, you were saying, then it's just straight up ownership of the company. If you go high on that, then you will probably have to go low on salary. And now you're basically banking on the fact that this company will be successful. Your co-founder slash partner slash friend will not screw you out of the money if there's a big exit event. But you're

banking on them being a great product person because for them to get out and make a lot of money does not require them to be great at making products. I've seen it before. Founders can make money by just passing the equity to the next uh the next let's i'll just say sucker but really it's like a hot potato game it's like you know i took our company from zero dollars to five million dollars evaluation i owned 20 of the company i made one million dollars and then i bailed out and then the company crashed and burned because the product actually sucked and and actually the next buyer was not a not a shrewd product evaluator so that's that's one possible situation here. So if you think that's what's going to happen, I would go high on salary and low on

equity. So it's like, hey, I don't want any equity in the company, just pay me well. And when we part ways at some point in the future, I'll walk away with nothing except the paychecks that all cleared and landed in my bank account. Now you have to be prepared for one of the downsides of that, which is that when your friend gets rich off selling this company, which is like a really good chance. I mean, if they're very charming and smart, and you have high confidence in them to be able to convince people to raise money. All they have to do is raise money twice, take money off the table the second time, they're going to get rich. So what's going to happen when they do that is they're going to look back at you and say, you should have taken a lot more equity, you could

have been rich. And then you're going to have to live with that. And so that's, but even though in reality, you probably would not have gotten rich because they would have had liquidation preferences or some kind of preference configuration that would make it hard for you to ever make money in those early phases anyway. So either way, you're probably not making money off the equity unless things work out really well. And I'm definitely not the expert to advise you on how to position things so that it can. But you got to be either willing to walk away with cash from your paychecks and smile knowing that you were never going to get rich anyway, no matter what your charming friend says, or try to get lots of equity and then go long, long, long term on this

thing, like 5, 10, maybe longer years. Nowadays, a lot of the equity markets, sorry, equity markets It's not the right word. Venture capital markets, like a lot of venture capital investors are saying there's no longer like a three to five year time horizon to big money on a startup. It's now more like 10 years.

Yeah. So that's everything I have. Those are very different. Those are very different paths too. It's like, do you want to be a mercenary or a missionary is the classic kind of cheesy dichotomy. It's more like, do you want to be a mercenary

or a deferred mercenary? Yeah. like a defer a mercenary on deferred pay those are the two options i mean i know they're asking about contract equity salary runway savings and to me this feels like they're not like i want to build something awesome with this person i think it'd be great to build it i'm maybe excited about our idea or what we could come up with if we're working together on it it feels like they're convincing me and maybe it'll be fun but it doesn't feel like how do i describe the distinction if i were to i'm thinking about how i would answer this question to consider joining a close friend

startup i would have to have um some amount of confidence that either the idea was like the idea is good enough that we can survive until we find the right idea i would i have to have a lot of confidence in our ability to like work together through conflict because i think especially early stage startups they're just really hard there's a lot that goes wrong there's a high risk of it all exploding there's a ton of optionality where you can go in a bunch of different directions and unless you just want to kind of have them tell you what to do and do that thing you're probably going to disagree on some of it and and i would want to know that we could figure out a direction that i was okay with proceeding in even if it wasn't my idea or i

don't know could we disagree productively right that's a great question yeah i feel like i would care more about that stuff than equity salary contract etc because i'm assuming if this is pre raising any money the salary is zero like they can't pay you anything if they haven't raised any money you could wait until they raise money to join that's yeah that's way different too though that's like yeah i'm assuming the startup doesn't exist yet and your friend is like let's go build a thing that does this yeah you're kind of signing up to just go sit in a garage with them for like three or four months right without paying yeah power hungry doesn't know how to build product i don't know it just doesn't feel like a fun garage time yeah exactly exactly you better

believe in the product and the person and you better believe that you're going to fill in the product gaps for that person if if indeed that's what's going on here yeah also the the question asker asks about savings and i do have an opinion on that and what i what i believe this is referring to is how much money should i have saved before i can safely venture on something like this and to me the the question depends a lot on how many people are dependent on your income for their well-being so do you have children spouse household you're taking care of a friend you're sending money to overseas because you lost a bet to them you know someone you've never met but are deeply in love with through passionate skype conversations um so what are your commitments

there so you know if i were if i had no one depending on me and i had say three months in the bank worth of savings this is and i thought that there was about a three month chance that the thing's going to go big and it's going to be a lot of fun and a big successful endeavor i'd probably go for it you know like i would risk it all to be part of some rocket ship ride awesome startup if i had a lot of confidence in this person to help us and i felt like i could make a big difference. I'm super excited by that idea. But if I'm in the actual situation that I'm in now, which is I have mouths to feed, a household to keep running, this is not a risk I'm taking. Maybe if I had two years of cash in the bank, I would say, I feel strongly about this and I want

to take six months and give it six months, which by the way, realistically, it's going to take that long before you know if this thing's going to pan out. At least six months is typically what I've found it takes. So that's kind of the magic number I'd say is three to six months of savings depending on how much dependence there is upon your income yeah yeah way easier to take that risk if you're young i mean they say they're ben says i'm a young developer so i assume that maybe means your your uh your financial commitments to others are pretty low makes it easier to take risks that just means that the amount of savings you need and the repercussions for it going wrong are both small yeah which is awesome say it say you run completely out of money you just kind of

like ask a friend to bum on their couch while you go find a job or do some contract work or something yeah exactly there are ways to tweak your runway if your burn rate is low exactly and there's ways to reduce your own personal burn rate it's hard to just abandon your children though sorry yeah daddy just needs to work a little bit longer on this sass idea so you will not be getting new shoes yes sorry you're going barefoot to school or food or yes or health coverage a house or health insurance or daddy why don't we have health insurance well i have this great sass idea that's going to serve the mid-market banking industry hasn't taken off yet yeah oh boy but i'll tell you what if i if i were in this situation i'd

be awfully tempted to go do something adventurous like this. When you're young without a lot of dependency on you, that is the time. It's only going to get more and more hard to do something like this. Yep. I have to wait until I am already rich now. Yeah, exactly. And I'll be tired. Yep. All right. Have we answered the question? I think so. Good luck, Ben. Best of luck. Would love to hear how it goes. If you do it and it works out, remember our advice was absolutely 100 go for it what if it doesn't work out if they want oh then ben will have died alone forgotten okay so no need to worry it doesn't matter what we said yeah what can people do if they want their own questions answered okay go over to soft

skills.audio and click the ask a question button where you can fill out our lovely little form that lets you ask a question and give us as much or as little identifying information about who you are that you would like to share with us and thank you everyone thank you every week for all of the myriad wonderful questions that you write in we love reading them they yes they are the reason i wake up once a week i only wake up once a week to read these questions and i go back to sleep the other like a little mini hibernation yes comes to check the the harvest of soft skills engineering questions exactly check the traps what they catch all right thank you for listening we'll catch you next week