Soft Skills Engineering - Episode 46: My New Crappy Job and Youth vs the Status Quo

Episode Date: February 7, 2017

Dave and Jamison answer these questions: How do I deal with my new job that turns out to be crappy? How do I know how hard to push back against more experienced engineers when suggesting a new idea? Thank you to Algolia for sponsoring this episode. Check out their job posting at algolia.com/softskillsengineering.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 46 of the Soft Skills Engineering Podcast. I am your host, Jameson Dance. I'm your host, Dave Smith. And we have a listener comment that we want to start off reading. This is in reaction to some of our interview discussion. It's from a listener named Eric, and he says, You missed one justification of CS interview problems. If you are interviewing devs who are fresh out of college,

it is reasonable to expect that they know what they have been carefully taught only a few years earlier. My background is in mathematics, not CS, and in the unusual situation when I'm interviewing someone with a math background, I ask them math questions. I also ask programming questions, regardless of background, of course. But the thing that should not be overlooked is that if you have a young CS major who does not know the basics of CS, you have someone with a learning or retention problem. Such a person will not be able to help you understand what is broken about the system that they helped build a year ago.

That's an interesting perspective. maybe it's easier to write math stuff on a whiteboard than say java code yeah that's true that's that's where i did a lot of math but you actually have to bring out a chalkboard in that case i think that's more traditional right yeah i think the answers come out better on chalk marker thanks eric for that comment yeah thank you good comment um so uh one other comment i wanted to make which is that uh one of the advantages of being a soft skills engineering listener is that when stuff goes really crappy at work you can always take comfort in the fact that you can write a comment to us and share it with us and then we will share it with everyone

you can take a crappy situation and turn it into a moment of glory eternal fame I have a friend we used to do a lot of camping together and just like wander around in the woods and whenever bad stuff would happen like we'd get super lost or like fall in a river or get

chased by wild turkeys or anything he would just say this is an adventure and all the bad stuff makes the adventure better was your friend named Tom Sawyer no he wasn't but I grew up in Minnesota and there are wild turkeys and some of them can get a little defensive okay all right they might get defensive

if you're like a 12 year old kid trying to kick the tree down that they're hanging out in so they they might have a reason to get defensive but whatever another awesome benefit of being a soft skills listener is you get to hear about this cool job offer from our sponsor algolia so algolia is a company that makes a hosted search service they power hacker news they power twitch tv they power a lot of open source documentation too um i think yarn uses them and a bunch of other doc sites use them basically and algolia is looking for engineers to come join their team but they're not just looking for any engineer they want people who care about the kind of stuff that we talk about on the soft skills engineering podcast so they sponsored us to get the word

out about this job? They're looking to hire a solutions engineer in either San Francisco or Paris. Paris, Texas? Paris, Idaho. No, Paris, France, Dave. Oh, sorry. So what exactly is a solutions engineer, Jameson? It's not sales. It's basically helping get the word out about the product and helping customers use the product well so you might build apis you might go help clients that are having scaling issues you might actually do even more glamorous things such as speaking at conferences if you're into that sort of thing they will of course pay for you to travel around the world and share their message at different conferences but if you're not i think you don't have to travel if you don't want to yeah it's it sounds like a super cool opportunity

yeah i agree and the culture sounds really cool we talked to one of their engineers for a good long time and he told lots of good stories and i if i didn't already have this podcast gig i would be all over that one other thing that they mentioned was the amount of freedom that the job brings so you you kind of get a lot of open-ended problems thrown at you it doesn't sound like it's like super regimented where you're plucking tasks off a off a ticketing system it's like this customer has this issue go fix it and make us awesome for them yeah um so they want people that like that kind of open-ended problem solving and like working in that environment where there's not a ton of oversight so if you want to go check it out visit algolia.com slash soft

skills engineering that's a l g o l i a dot com slash soft skills engineering the process is straightforward there's a phone screen and then an at-home assignment that you'll publish on github and after that they'll fly you to their office for an in-person interview yep thank you agolia for sponsoring yeah thanks all right uh do you want to read our first question dave yes sir um this comes from a listener who i can't remember if it was supposed to be anonymous let's say that they're a wombat not actually a wombat yeah yeah um listener wombat says says i've just started listening to your podcast and enjoy it it seems like you guys have a lot of fun doing it that is absolutely true how can it not be fun when we get to talk to wombats i know

he says what advice do you have for a developer who starts a new job and immediately finds out that they don't like it. I started a new job recently and I'm excelling at the technical requirements of the job, but culturally I do not fit in. I feel like I was misled by the company. I was told I would be working on a team. It turns out I am the only front-end developer at the company. I'm given a lot of autonomy, but I don't have opportunities to learn from other engineers or help junior developers. I also have significantly less freedom than I had at my previous job because the culture is more authoritarian than i'm comfortable with i started the process of trying to find a new job but i have been challenged in that i don't want

to inform my new company of my unhappiness publicly so i can't use social media like twitter and linkedin how do i do this so many things here first it sounds like they're not wombat friendly environment i don't know what wombats eat what do they eat people probably maybe that's why you're having a hard time is uh no i thought it was interesting that he mentions the cultural mismatches because i feel like that's something that companies pay a lot of lip service to is like culture fit and it can often be like a reason to turn people down that it's like a reason to say to people that they don't fit yeah it's like the uh the catch-all yeah like we just didn't like you so culture fit we only hire people that we like for the culture yeah we only hire people

that are a good fit for the culture and the culture is people that i want to hang out with all the time it's actually that's actually kind of sad but true right yeah it is it's interesting that you have found that they are not a culture fit for you yeah that is interesting especially given one of these points here where he says i was told i would be working on a team but it turns out i'm the only front-end developer oh man like i don't want to be critical here but i'm wondering like what happened in the interview process did you like did they just say oh yeah the front-end team they're just not here today the day that you're interviewing uh but don't worry they're great like how did that go down or it could be that there were people that were kind of roped

into it and just didn't like it they were they were kind of filling in doing front-end work and i'm assuming you were hired as kind of a front-end expert so now they're happy to leave that work to you so the team disappeared the day you showed up yeah yeah there's just little dust clouds like when cartoons run away it's also good that you have the autonomy to choose technologies when you're the only developer working on a team that could be worse yeah but i know how you feel because when you're the only person working on your area of the product it can be really isolating so lonely yeah especially right yeah especially if you're a little more social and it sounds like you might be if you

enjoy mentoring and learning from other engineers and that that kind of back and forth interaction so yeah you you have valid reasons to feel the way you do absolutely that's what we mean yes and even if you didn't have valid reasons to feel the way you do your feelings are still valid that's true well what i'm showing my anti-wombat you're so judgmental of yeah how how long do you think a few months is enough time jameson to like really know for sure this is not the gig for me i think it is um it's your life right and if you're unhappy and you're just waiting to like magically be happy one day at the job when you don't see if i mean can you hire people onto your team that might be one way to fix it if that's a thing causing you unhappiness

can you lead a rebellion against the authoritarian regime in your company that might also fix it you just like throw cans of soda with little holes poked in them into the stand-up meetings that they make you go to every day and it gets in people's eyes and it's kind of like pepper spray i mean but if you can't change that stuff then i would say you have no responsibility to just sit there in a miserable job so that it doesn't look bad on your resume that's true um three months i think is a little fast um from my experience it takes about six months in the a couple places that i've been to really know for sure and i've had it go both ways uh two different jobs one job i left after six months one job i got into it under kind of false pretenses the way that you

describe although not quite so bad as like having a team that doesn't actually exist sure there's a team but but i i let it go for a while and i ended up staying there for five years and just absolutely loved it i mean it was so great lots of opportunities opened up over the course of those five years that were just wonderful for me but it took several months to really you know give it a good chance and a good shake and uh and it did change a lot the nature of my job changed over the years over the course of those five years which is something else that was good but i don't know three months feels like it's just right on the cusp i don't think i've ever started a job and not been so incredibly happy to be working there i've never started a job and

been like well i've been duped and i kind of don't like it no really i don't know if i should stay here yeah i've been just on like the honeymoon period where everything's awesome and there's so many cool problems to solve and everything is wonderful my point is that if i started a job and i hated it yeah i would leave pretty soon so you're saying because even during the honeymoon period you can't yeah that's that's when everything is new and exciting and the possibilities are endless and you haven't heard the long boring stories from the one co-worker that comes and interrupts you all day to tell their long boring stories like this is the this is in some ways the best version of the job and if you hate it then i don't know i wouldn't stay and i learned a great

lesson from a comment in one of the last episodes when someone asks you i only stayed three months You just say, I really value being on a team, and I was the only person on that team. That's true. That's going to be an easy story to tell, to say, look, I wanted to work on a team. The whips that they used were, like, real painful. I thought it was just a metaphor during the interview, but it was real. So the story is easy to tell, I think, in this case. But that won't help you today.

that'll help you like in the interview process and over the well i guess it will help today if you start interviewing do you want to talk at all about what to do in the interview process to avoid this situation in the future yeah uh that is interesting yes i think we should i mean i guess we don't know any of the details really so i'm gonna make some up in my head but i'm i'm assuming that they didn't just straight up lie to you 100 about everything i hope not i mean if they did then then you need to like go study psychology and detect lies polygraph but but if they didn't lie to you it seems like there is some information that you could have gathered that you might want to gather next time yeah definitely like is there or isn't there a front-end team and can i meet

them yeah one of the things i like to ask in interviews is how do engineers get their work to work on and uh i asked that because and i usually like to ask that from several different people the engineers as well as the management oh yeah and i like to see if they agree on it and while on the one hand if they disagree you can identify dysfunction but on the other hand if they agree then you can figure out how authoritarian the company is you know is this a bottom-up company a top-down company and i think you can tell a lot yeah it sounds like you're already pretty astute about the kinds of things that you enjoy so it seems like some effort in discovering what the company is like might help align that better with with where you end up

should we just say okay what's the actual the answer to the question though which is how do i get out of this situation right i don't want to post on twitter i don't want to post on linkedin because i don't want to tell my company that i hate it yeah so that's actually an interesting question. Maybe I'm going to dance around it one more time, but why don't you want to tell your boss, Hey, I thought there was going to be a front end team. Where's my front end team? You know, maybe that's a conversation you should have. Yeah. Or maybe there's just no hope. It's like, no, we're not going to get a front end team for you. So I feel like we've talked about from the other side, when you are working with a team member that you feel like is at

media expectations you have these clear conversations with them to to let them know that their performance needs to improve or you're gonna have to make a change which is like a soulless euphemism for fire them um i wonder if you need to have those conversations as an employee too like maybe they should know that you aren't happy um yeah yeah and then it's not like this deep sudden shocking betrayal if you take another job it's like yeah i mean this wombat all we had was plants and he craved flesh so he tried his best to make it work but she wasn't the right environment for him oh my gosh

but again now but but he's you know this person is probably torn between wanting to tell them the problem um and then seeing if they can work on it or at least understand why he's leaving on the one hand but on the other hand maybe he just wants to leave and just say hey look this great opportunity showed up and you know it's been a cool three months but i just feel like i have to take this you know yeah you know nothing wrong with you it's not you it's me that is a much easier conversation to have right like no bridges call someone on their crap and yeah yeah so let's say you wanted to go that route what do you do uh i would reach out to people privately i mean there's a the recruiters are like swarming on linkedin all the time and i haven't actually

ever worked with a recruiter to find a job but i assume that the good ones will respect your privacy and i've been the candidate two times on two different occasions i got jobs uh using a recruiter and they were very respectful of my privacy and made sure my company didn't know that i was interviewing yeah so that's an option i think and i mean just friends if you mention posting on twitter it is nice to get those chance serendipitous things where some random person in a random company that you might not consider is reading twitter that day they see the tweet and they think oh they should apply here right but um if you if you want to reach out to a network of friends you can still contact them privately as long as they all don't work at your company

except not on the front end team on a different team um i would totally do that and honestly i think most people have to do it this way because they don't want their employer to know that they're looking yeah and um i'm actually kind of envious of people who are able to just post these public tweets and say hey i'm looking for work um that sounds like the worst way to tell your employer that you're quitting i hope those people have told them already johnson come in my office i want to show you a tweet yeah i have only i have posted publicly on twitter but only after telling my team and dave pointed out to me before the show that that's a good way to tell the company like hey i don't want to work for you um it's not that i want to work for this other

company it's that i just don't want to work for you i would rather be unemployed than work for you is the message because jameson has quit a couple jobs in a row now without having another job lined up yeah the last two times that i quit i i quit and then i found a job after that which is possible only because of just the crazy developer market that we're in yeah yeah but i i guess i never thought about like what it would do to the company to give them that impression i just told i'm like i don't know what i want to do i just not feeling it um also it's possible that deep down your employer already knows you hate it sometimes we send messages that we don't realize we're sending through body language and other means and so there's a chance that your employer

is like just waiting for you to come into their door into their office and say you're leaving and it might not be as big a surprise as you think i haven't had someone on my team quit this quickly just, just come in, not like it and leave. But I have had unhappy engineers quit and it actually wasn't a horrible thing for the team or the company or them. I was kind of, I feel like I, I'm thinking of one particular case where I knew this engineer, I knew they weren't happy. I tried to kind of help them find stuff to work on that they would be happy doing, find a better fit for them in the company. And they just weren't happy. They were doing really good work and we would have loved to keep them but they they just weren't enjoying it and so they quit and they went somewhere

where they were way happier and i was like great like i'm glad that you are happy and and it's not like they were dragging the team down but you could totally tell yeah you knew right yeah yeah they were in a better place just like all the victims of the wombat um it's true though i mean it seems like our culture our industry should be more tolerant of people who um leave a job after just a short time because we should be allowed to feel it out and try it out because we all know that you can't tell much from an interview you can learn a lot but you can't learn enough right yeah you're always taking a risk yeah both both parties are right i mean three months will teach you pretty much everything you need to know right yeah i

think so or at least six months but in any case it'd be great if we could just let people leave and have that not be something they have to worry about explaining every time they interview for a future company but the fact is if you do it once it's probably not going to be a big black mark on your resume oh yeah you do it like three times in a row then you're going to have some pretty serious explaining to do yeah especially if you're experienced i mean if if you're fresh out of a boot camp or college maybe not but um actually you're still gonna have to explain it you really are right that's gonna stand out yeah but i think i think your future prospects are totally fine you have a perfectly logical reason it's not like they fired you so you have to explain

what went wrong you you just say i wasn't happy because of these reasons and i quit and i think people will be fine totally agree but good luck just good luck that's all i got good luck good luck question answered we talked a lot around that question and then circled in at the end i think yeah okay this one this next question comes from someone who is not a wombat i think they actually have a name how i mean dave wombats have names good point come on i'm always i'm so discriminatory yeah take that foot out of your mouth okay sorry would you like to read this one yeah i can read it i care a lot about making things better and pushing new ideas but i'm also still a somewhat junior engineer i feel i sometimes fall into that

trap of youthful ignorance assuming that i have some brilliant insight when missing nuance that someone more experienced would easily spot on the other hand i've also seen seniors who get trapped in old ways of thinking and push bad paradigms more from habit than for good reason how can i tell when i should push an idea harder despite resistance from others or cave and accept that a co-worker knows better than me always cave that's easy yeah that's cave in to the loudest co-worker is that like your your battle cry we give up oh isn't that that's that's the guy from the tick right isn't his battle cry not in the face that's yeah the not in the face the sidekick yeah not in the face i think his name was arthur how did i can't believe you know about the tick

it's uh it's actually pretty rare for me to bump into someone who knows about the tick still waters run deep dave yeah they do they clearly do i don't know what that phrase means though so they don't run that deep um so cool i just i knew i liked you for a reason and now i think you know yeah source of our friendship all right so do you listen to the old crufty veterans or do you just push and push and when to know which approach to take i think you have to do both I mean, the old crufty veterans have seen things that you would not believe and they have dealt with problems that you cannot fathom. And sometimes those problems are patterns that reoccur in other places. And sometimes they're problems that have been solved or made obsolete.

But if you just ignore them all the time, then you'll 100% repeat a lot of mistakes. yeah you know when i was a a younger whippersnapper i had very little regard for more senior engineers oh same 100 the same so i think it's actually really mature that this listener is even asking the question yeah right um because when i was his age i don't know how old he is but when i was you know 10 15 years ago i remember just seeing resumes for people with 20 years of experience and i'm like ah what a waste like i don't need to hire this guy it's like bring all this old crap into it's like negative experience yes i did it was so stupid and but now that i am that engineer i think any team that doesn't hire me would be a fool

not to bring my wisdom their loss i know so it's awesome that you're asking this question i think yeah it is awesome and it it makes me think that uh you'll probably handle this well whatever you do i think it probably depends a lot on your team too i was reading this one of my favorite books about programming called coders at work it's just interviews with famous accomplished developers who have built awesome stuff and they're talking to jamie zawinski who helped build a netscape navigator and he describes their team and it's basically like everyone's screaming at each other all the time they're all arguing and swearing at each other and calling their ideas stupid and that's how they like work out what to build oh boy and that sounds like a place i would not enjoy

he also talks about sleeping under his desk for like months straight so lots of reasons why i wouldn't enjoy it and also why i don't have all that netscape money the browser wars were fought under a desk yeah but but all that to say that some teams might have a culture of more um open and active spirited disagreement i guess and in that case um maybe just that's just the way you work out ideas is you you push back and you challenge stuff and they'll push back on you and as long as you do it in a mature way then hopefully you your ideas kind of get like hammered out and the weaknesses get smushed out and you end up with something better yeah i don't know that every place is like that though i think some places people that work there

in general are a lot more sensitive about feelings and they want to have kind of calmer discussions and if you call someone's idea stupid then and you tell them they're an old fuddy-duddy who you're so out of touch yeah where's your oxygen tank she's writing java instead of elixir then that might not result in better more more robust technical ideas unless you're at netscape and then yeah all fair game yep which i don't think exists anymore no i think all those people burnt out and they went and they went to mozilla yeah so i would say that if a co-worker claims to know better than you on a topic but they can't convince you of it then there's a good possibility they don't actually know better and you should push back what if you're just unconvincible though

you're just bad at being convinced about stuff yeah i've seen people who are never wrong literally they are never wrong about anything ever and they're in their own mind anyway they will just argue until you give up yeah forever i've known people like that and i am like the opposite it i am so easy to convince of stuff yeah generally have you noticed that i don't know um i am that way too i guess i haven't tried super hard to convince you well when you agree with me everything then there's no reason to convince me maybe it doesn't feel like i'm trying super hard because you're just caving i just roll over everything yeah um but yeah i don't know i guess i guess if you have the introspection to ask this question then

you might not be one of those always 100 right people i mentioned earlier that the grizzled veterans have knowledge that you cannot fathom and some of that knowledge might be the thing that you say is like easy and awesome and will solve all our problems actually will cause all these other problems because they know a lot more about the current system that you're working in i was thinking the same thing i have a slightly different angle on it which is that sometimes you have a good idea but the cost of of course correcting the ship to implement your idea could outweigh the benefits of the idea and if you could rewind the clock and go back to day one maybe we would do it that way but since we didn't do that five years ago now the cost of doing it

is just too high to actually get the benefit that is a great point and i can see myself doing that earlier where i would just look at things in the abstract in like pure technical comparison and even that it's really hard to do there's always subjectivity in that but i would say this is a better solution and not take into account the context of the existing system like it's going to take us six months to even start getting value yeah we have to we have to do nothing but rewrite for six months in order to build an interface to slot this new thing in and then start building new stuff on it and then our business would die so and after four months you'd be on the street yeah but i'm sure that functional programming will save us all

so when i was at my second job out of college i had a really unique opportunity which was that i got to start projects from scratch repeatedly at the same company and that's something that a lot of people i've realized don't actually get to do they usually have to deal with this big code base that they inherited that's a few years old and um you're not going to get a chance to start over but i got i got to build new prod new products from scratch like probably four or five times over the course of oh wow like seven years yeah it was really cool um this was the same company where i thought that i didn't need any experienced engineers because i got to start these projects from scratch i got to like try different ideas and do things a new way every time

and see the outcome um and that was super valuable so on the one hand i would encourage this listener to um push push for these ideas because you'll never get to experience firsthand the process of putting in place some new idea and seeing what the outcomes are if you don't right if you don't push so i would say in some cases it's really valuable for you personally to to go through that process and if you're working at a company where you will literally never be able to do that you're just kind of doing what you're told in the way that you're told to do it then you might be limited yeah i think another warning sign is if only the senior engineers get to play with the cool new things if you say we should dockerize stuff and

then someone like slaps you on the back of the head or i don't know whatever they would do uh and then a couple of weeks later you see like the team lead playing around with docker and and and they say we should dockerize stuff and he says i should dockerize stuff yeah i should do this while you all pick up my bugs that i'm not going to get to because i'm playing with docker that seems bad so they should there should definitely be an opportunity for new stuff to come in from all levels and while technical experience is super valuable i think lots of more experienced developers lose patience to keep up with brand new things and they'll kind of wait for it to get vetted a little longer which um has a lot lower risk in some ways but it also means

that you might step on board the the hype train a little bit later and younger developers are generally more gung-ho about the brand newest shiniest thing so i think it is healthy to to have some of that brand new shiny stuff injected in especially if you can take into account all the context that they was talking about where if you can recognize this new shiny technology will help us and it's actually possible to use in a way that won't make our lives miserable yeah exactly The other thing that age has taught me is that you sometimes can't actually see the – you can't fully understand the outcome of your technology or process or pattern changes in your code for a lot longer than you might think. Like it might take a lot longer than you'd think to really fully appreciate the outcomes. And what I mean by that is that sometimes you might see, like, I would say a brand new technology or tool and say, I'm going to put this in place.

And I'll bet within a month we'll fully understand the repercussions of this. But sometimes it takes a year or two years before you go, oh, crap, we've made a mess. Yeah. You know? And so I think sometimes maybe when an older, more senior engineer resists a change, it could be because they're like, look, we know what we have works. and what you're talking about will take us two years before we even can realize how bad it sucks yeah this is a thing you see a lot yeah again with with new shiny platforms they have these cool tutorials that demonstrate these awesome things you can do there's the the part of

building a product that's like building cool features and fancy new technology can make that stuff easier and then there's the stuff you have to do on every project that is made so much easier by a mature ecosystem like error handling and monitoring and alerting and like uptime and i don't know just all this like plumbing stuff that you have to do to go from a fancy demo to a robust product and it's likely that if you work in an established company and they have all that stuff built that they've kind of like dave was talking about and if you rewrite everything in elixir then guess what you have no alerting now when your app goes down so you also have to write alerting stuff because there's not any established sas services that do it all for you

right right yep sas services are like atm machines what i'm so like software as a service services automated teller machines machines oh oh got it it's a redundant acronym how do you even say sas services sasses sasses you know those sasses yeah so here's here's another thought you know when you're trying to decide should i push back or not one of the questions you could ask yourself is did i clearly explain this in a way that the engineer understood or are they just hearing words and going i i don't fully understand what you're saying but i have a meeting i need to go to you know yeah um and there's a good chance that because software is so hard to talk about there's a good chance that if you were to put together like an example or a demo or a small

prototype that you could get a lot more traction with your ideas and you could get past that initial knee-jerk reaction that people have to just sweep the idea under the rug because it's not fully fleshed out so try to figure out i think if people are resisting your ideas because they don't fully understand them and if that's the case try to come up with different ways to communicate the dream scenario here is where you have some existing pain point and you have a shiny new thing that solves that pain point that you can demonstrate is possible and won't make people's lives worse and yeah if you can show that in a demo then you're basically selling people on things and you're saying this will make your life easier instead of them seeing elixir and thinking

like crap i have to do all this extra work to figure out how to do blah blah yeah yeah exactly yeah so another way to put that i think is that your ideas will meet with less resistance if you can show that you have thought about enough of the dangers that you can and that you've mitigated them uh that people will feel more comfortable adopting your ideas and this isn't exactly the answer to your question which was um how can i tell if i should push the idea despite resistance but rather sometimes there are ways to communicate an idea that will reduce the resistance that you'll receive simply because you've thought the idea through more completely i think every new idea does need a champion though to to believe it's awesome and kind of push through it so i

think zero resistance is probably not going to happen very often no no probably never if zero resistance happens it just means they're not thinking about your idea very much they just don't care yeah they were all waiting for you and they're just like cheering you on now like yay you did it yeah but yeah this is a cool problem to have and i think the fact that you're thinking in these terms bodes very well for your future because here we i don't when did we get in the habit of directly addressing the question asker like this by saying you i don't know suddenly i felt just now like i'm talking to my microphone you i love you but um i think it bodes very well for your future that you're critically thinking about

the status quo and actively coming up with ideas to challenge the status quo that is the uh kind of engineer that the world needs right there all right question answered so answered we did it we did it where can people go if they want more questions answered um google yeah is that ask jeeves is still thing ask jeeves oh man no it's ask.com yeah that's right they bought Ask Jeeves. Askjeeves.com has an expired SSL certificate? Oh, my childhood. My childhood

has expired too. Okay, well, not Ask Jeeves. Where else? If you really want to get more answers to questions, you can check out our website where you can see all past episodes, listen to them right on the webpage, which is kind of cool, but

I prefer to download it to my phone and listen on my podcast app so that I can speed it up um i don't think jameson does this but that's why that's how i do it yeah i don't i would i don't want to miss a thing i want it to last as long as possible so i don't speed it up i slow it down yeah you can play it at half speed yeah i do play it at half speed yeah that's a great place to go if you want to submit questions there is a google form on our website where you can give us as much or as little details you want we'll make up a sentient creature for you to be if you don't want

your name shared you can also send us a direct message on twitter if you're not following us on twitter you should do it why should they follow us on twitter i mean if they're already subscribed to the podcast they get the episodes because once in a while we we retweet interesting things we've done it two times yeah we'll tweet stuff that is you do not want to miss that the episode and you'll find out what it is if you follow us so that's right do that and please check out algolia.com slash soft skills engineering and see if that job looks like it might be something really cool for you i think if you're interested into soft skills you very well could be a good fit for it yep tell them tell them jameson and dave sent you they'll they'll take

you into the special vip area of the website thanks for listening we'll catch you next week bye